ben_vulpes: better to not offer that feature if that's how it works today, shinohai
phf: well, it probably keeps a state somewhere, but i mean since it got deployed, which was probably around the ba->tmsr
phf: fwiw if shinohai can give me a state format, i could trivially produce a seen table for anyone pre split
ben_vulpes: haw haw haw btc market cap > twitter market cap
mod6: "Real name: mod6" "Name must be at least 5 characters long"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 19:01 phf: asciilifeform: these are basically three different solutions to the same problem of "how to allow more than one kind of vpatch". yours is mechanical, mine is an attempt to expand the mythos and mp's is cutting the gordian knot
mod6: oh, fwiw, --gen-key --allow-freeform-uid
mircea_popescu: mod6 i read through
http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt and indeed it seems right and proper vtronics. one q though : was there any patch not signed by asciilifeform interspersed in the flow ? because that's the only not tested case i think, if you have say a->b->c->d where a, c and d are signed by x. does it stop at a ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this incidentally is a very cogent point you bring, "Multiple implementations of an ambiguous specification provide far more value than the "many eyes" mantra of open source advocates. An implementation in Python might burn the eyes of a Perl hacker, and the Perl be entirely inscrutable to a man who's never touched it before, and even were such a man to sit down and learn Python for the purpose of auditing another'
mircea_popescu: s V implementation, it is in no way obvious that the time cost of his learning the language combined with the risk that he misses details in the audit is a better resource expenditure than simply implementing the tool again in his language of choice."
mod6: mircea_popescu: this is a solid point for testing, let me give this a test and see how it goes. will report.
phf: i'm about to upgrade btcbase, which in this case is an invasive procedure so bot's going to be down for a bit (15 minutes or so if everything goes well), after that there might be some bugs so feel free to yell at me
phf: things have been too stable, so i'm moving it literate pascal
mircea_popescu: now we know what it means when phf tells a girl he'll be 10-15 minutes.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do you mean you iterate through all the seals ? :D
mircea_popescu: and wtf "today we are building machine intelligence" idiocy is this.
mircea_popescu: see, the man looked in the jaguar's eyes, and SAW a soul there. little bit of circularity.
mircea_popescu: "it has good instincts as to what's funny and what's not". really ?
mircea_popescu: yes, when i teach a 15 yo to fuck, she ~has good instincts~ about what's slutty and what's not ; and works to clear the shit her mother shat on her so the slut within can shine
mircea_popescu: but the machine has no mother to shit on it ; AND NO GOOD INSTINCTS. or any instincts at all.
a111: Logged on 2012-04-13 11:00 `MBot: [ GLBSE ] [ TRADE ] [ TYGRR-BOT ] [ 2 x 0.99999 = 1.999980 BTC ]
mircea_popescu: i have jun 2011 - apr 2012 otc logs also, but by now really scraping the bottom.
phf: asciilifeform: i'm not sure, but the ancient log connects cleanly into where kako starts
phf: it was mostly an opportunity to cleanup very messy internal log keeping that involved multiple sliced in memory arrays..
phf: it's a redirector so not very convenient
a111: Logged on 2014-03-20 22:39 phf: not quite
a111: Logged on 2013-02-02 19:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: working on it
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> i have jun 2011 - apr 2012 otc logs also, but by now really scraping the bottom. << these would be cool tho
mod6: high-drama in those days.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the dates seem off or something's amiss. i see you feb 3rd 2013
a111: Logged on 2013-02-02 19:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: working on it
mircea_popescu: yeah but you would have shown in chanlists which you do not.
phf: mircea_popescu: log that you gave me, goes apr 15, may 22, aug 10th
mod6: POP QUIZ: How much was the first MPEx fee after the beta period?
mod6: haha, i think it was ya.
mircea_popescu: phf omfg you'\re right, i just made contact at first ; only started using it from august.
phf: asciilifeform: oddly enough that's not in the log. perhaps if you upload your logs i can slice them in..
mod6: wow, the fortunes won, and lost (looking at this old stuff...)
phf: asciilifeform: were you on bouncer from the beginning?
phf: asciilifeform: what's your timestamp for "There's no drama like Bitcoin drama." ?
phf: ah so there's a break on oct 12 from 04:56 to 15:08 which falls under
a111: Logged on 2012-08-11 03:55 BTC-Mining: I lost 40 BTC due to a typo
mod6: oh man, this stuff is gold
mircea_popescu: mod6 remember that time someone put a mega sdice order in and flooded the book ?
mircea_popescu: confirmed, there's a hole in my log for the 12th. asciilifeform apparently you didn't merely meander in, but managed to do it when i was off.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 remember that time someone put a mega sdice order in and flooded the book ? << Oh yeah, Sir. I'm still doing a O_O from that.
mod6: for sure. it was unreal. i did like a quadruple take.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> but how the hell did i wander into #b-a, i still cannot remember. << you were invited to checkout MPEx right?
mod6: yeah, i feel like you came in, talked for a few weeks, checked it out... then vanished again for a while. then you were here.
mircea_popescu: there's an easy mistake to make here where we look at the past and presume it's the present. gotta recall at the time most people (myself included) did not even regard the matter as serious enough to warrant permalogging.
mircea_popescu: so it's entirely possible you were curious about bitcoin, wandered in some chan or another, never thought more of it.
mod6: yeah, im an idiot for not logging everything.
mod6: i totally didn't log anything.
mircea_popescu: mod6 force is to be deployed as it becomes evident it's useful to deploy it, not randomly everywhere.
mircea_popescu: anyway ; i dunno that it makes any sense to push this further ; otc logs, what else, we're going to do cypherpunk bbses too ?
mod6: some of that OTC stuff was totally insaneo. i remember this one particular day with pirate...
phf: our logs must go all the way back to Aristotle
mod6: yeah tardstalk was awful. the only redeeming quality there was MPOE-PR.
mod6: i still have scammer ptsd
mircea_popescu: ahahaha ok this is great. "since hyperintelligence is a real threat any entity which develops hyperintelligence would be so taken with this threat that it would be forced to spend all its time filling obscure wikis with bad fanfic to prepare the other intelligences to deal with the singularity. you know, much like that bizarre faggot."
mircea_popescu: Joi Ito, who runs the MIT Media Lab, said a wonderful thing in a recent conversation with President Obama: "This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it's been a predominantly male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building the core computer science around AI, and they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. A lot of them feel that if they could just make that science-f
mircea_popescu: iction, generalized AI, we wouldn't have to worry about all the messy stuff like politics and society. They think machines will just figure it all out for us."
mircea_popescu: now then, leaving aside the offensive inferiority complex women/nonwhites have towards white males : the guy has a point (mit media lab, which apparently got new leadership, a little smarter - and a little less female - being where ethereum retardation is hatched). the jwz is by now radioactive, a bunch of kids who can't subdue a girl their age, let alone a herd of adult women, want things to be about how it's ok to go around
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 why's the hash mismatching ? << upon checking the output hash from the pressing of asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch, it failed. because this patch depends on asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch which was not in the flow, because it was renamed 'duck-fuck-soup.vpatch'.
mod6: yah, so, in this: a->b->c->d ; I basically just got rid of 'c', and then tried to press a->b->d (all signed by x) and it does fail. was this what we were trying to achieve? If not, i'll do another test np.
mircea_popescu: yeah, try again i say, but leave the vpatch rename the seal just.
mod6: aha, ok. will do. if i'd venture a guess, we'll see the exact same result.
mircea_popescu: anyway, idlewords guy is pretty much spot on as to how exactly silicon valley / "vc" etc world goes away. "Ray Kurzweil, who believes he will never die, has been a Google employee for several years now and is presumably working on that problem. There are a lot of people in Silicon Valley working on truly crazy projects under the cover of money." this is pretty much it, the byzantines found their way towards byzantinism, will
mircea_popescu: (failure in resource allocation went from simple "tin women" to - google, or for that matter mit, can't figure out who to hire anymore.)
mircea_popescu: getting "other people" to work for you is the exact above problem.
mircea_popescu: you have this much sticky and have to pick who "other people" to stick.
mod6: well, i suspect that this is a different problem really.
mod6: and yours doesn't check the output hash.
mod6: disable fuzz via patch flag?
mod6: no worries, fixing this requires some other changes. will go back to drawing board.
mod6: so you think that if i just use '-F 0' then this problem is hypothetically resolved?
mod6: because, mind you, it is ~still~ trying to press asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch, and whatever it shits out from this, if it does not match the expected output hash, will then die yes.
mod6: i dunno, lemme try putting in the anti-fuzz thing
mod6: yes, flow is wrong because 'asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch' is missing.
mod6: mine has another arrow going to dns_thermonyukyoolar_kleansing
phf: there's no "correct" with v graphs, and every two months or so i spent some time meditating on what a v graph even is
☟︎ mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: look here: asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch should have been orphaned in your flow << i think it actually is, quite: when I have the sig for dnsseed moved to duck-fuck-soup, and i check the ante and desc for zap_hardcoded:
http://dpaste.com/2QCN3Y4.txt mod6: which says to me, that it was orphand off from dnsseed
mod6: that's the same as saying : mod6@gentoo ~/sandbox-v $ ./v.pl a asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch
mod6: that guy has been orphand, he has no parent.
mod6: anyway, i think my graph is correct.
mod6: phf's might correct, but his doesn't show all of the edges that mine does.
mod6: asciilifeform: im having a hard time following you. let's try to keep this to something i can grok.
mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present?
☟︎ phf: asciilifeform: i don't really have mental capacity for this conversation right now, but mod6's graph is most likely correct, because all it does is links vpatches to vpatches by their shared hashes
mod6: or to go back to mr. p.'s example: a->b->c->d all signed by x, if i remove 'c', then the flow should read: a->b
mod6: but this is where it gets hairy.
mod6: if we look at my graph, that really wouldn't be true.
mod6: if it were correct, in my mind, i suppose, the flow would be dropping zap_hardcoded_seeds and zap_showmyip_crud.
mod6: because there are other routes everywhere else that can follow.
☟︎ mod6: but those would be the only two that should drop.
mod6: not ~everything~ else.
phf: asciilifeform: mine removes some of the links where dependency is already demonstrated by other means. if you have a->b->c and a->c you can't press c without pressing b also
mod6: and furthermore, i guess it doesn't make any sense to continue on at all if something is missing in the flow, because even if you could side-step where the breakage is, the vpatch down stream would actually fail to press anyway because its input hash wouldn't match the expected.
mod6: my v seems to do the correct thing by dying, but maybe showing the entire flow post breakage might be incorrect as well.
mod6: i think it should die. when its trying to press and it enounters something that doesn't match: death.
mod6: it would probably be better form to never have to die, but to never hit that case where we must die.
mod6: the same flow computation happens in both places.
mod6: so back to the model: a->b->c->d if I remove 'c', all that should show up in the flow is 'a->b' and all that is pressable is 'a->b', should never attempt to even press 'a->b->d'
mod6: correct. now you get an 'a->b->c->d'
mod6: i'll work on something for this. will update at that point. thanks for talking me through it. :]
mod6: fwiw, i believe i've even tested this once by creating a special patch that pointed to an earlier patch in the flow.
mod6: not 100% positive, but I seem to recall trying this once. i think my thing broke with a 'cyclic graph!' or something
mod6: also, as a note, i'll leave the anti-fuzz change in this new version -- it seems ~more~ correct than previous impl.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 23:56 Framedragger: (mp suggested to invite him over, and here i am childishly fearing that he'll hate this place, mp will decide that he's not mp-complete/ready, and that's gonna be that. i know, sad.)
mircea_popescu: anyway, he probably WILL hate this place, what with his bizarre notions of ethics etc. but whatevs.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 23:57 asciilifeform: we had this with at least 1 d00d who i respected (spandrel/'bloody shovel')
mircea_popescu checks, the only time i even said the word it was used as a noun.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:41 phf: there's no "correct" with v graphs, and every two months or so i spent some time meditating on what a v graph even is
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:49 mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 02:19 mircea_popescu: mod6 i read through
http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt and indeed it seems right and proper vtronics. one q though : was there any patch not signed by asciilifeform interspersed in the flow ? because that's the only not tested case i think, if you have say a->b->c->d where a, c and d are signed by x. does it stop at a ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:52 mod6: because there are other routes everywhere else that can follow.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 05:04 asciilifeform: if you ever see one, you gotta find and negrate the joker who closed the cycle.
mod6: yeah, if im in the wot too, and I have a valid sig to that one, then it's ok.
mircea_popescu: ie, if someone can close a cycle, it's not time to negrate, it's time to get a better hash.
mircea_popescu: mod6 yeah, if it's a (2 sigs) -> b(2 sigs) -> c(1 sig) -> d(2 sigs again) then it's a valid press.
mircea_popescu: but the idea was, put just alf in wot, cut a seal midway, see what happens.
mircea_popescu: as alf says, what happens should be all ulterior bits should fall off.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it may feel a bit tedious/stupid/etc to keep workign these basics, but it'll pay off in time
mod6: agreed. we're getting there one bit at a time.
mod6: this next round of refactoring for this might be some work, but in the end, i aught to write a bunch of these tests into automated ones.
mod6: then once we agree that mine does what is deemed 'correct' others can use the tests to prove their own out.
mod6: at least, somewhat.
mod6: yeeep, lot of testing.
davout: asciilifeform: has to be 3 times in a row iirc
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 16:36 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: Emin is pushing SGX like solutions. Seems everyone is infected with security theatre these days.
Framedragger: << "The U.S. government quietly began requesting that select foreign visitors provide their Facebook, Twitter and other social media accounts upon arriving in the country"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's take the simplest cycle : a->b and b->a ; to do this, a must contain the hash of b ; and b must contain the hash of a. how do you propose to accomplish this ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: Framedragger well, maybe that'll make someone somewhere believe these matter! usg doing its best to support teh economy.
mircea_popescu: in further news nobody cares about, "4 million letters of 'empathy, support' dropped on Mosul". this thing, which was a) going to be a war that b) was going to take two weeks twelve weeks ago (and then a month, and then two, and here we are) has now degenerated in a fucking spam offensive.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: of the printed mail-order-catalogue sort, because apparently nobody cares about twitter and myspace over there natch.
shinohai: The rebels were running out of TP, so the letters may come in handy in that regard.
mircea_popescu: "In a new photo report purportedly released by the Islamic State, an ISIS suicide car bomber attacks Iraqi forces in the Intisar neighborhood of east Mosul, Iraq. The photo report was released on ISIS terrorist channels on December 22."
mircea_popescu: (of all the weird therein included, it's of particular amusement to me that they do have the slant, but that they evidently introduced it graphically rather than numerically. nobody did the math required to see how that front apex should go ; it's just there because "that's how tanks look", forget blast flow simulations etc.)
mircea_popescu: in these parts of the world it's un travail d'argentinian.
mircea_popescu: (i suppose also lulzy, that the front wheel cover has hinges, whereas the back one is screw-mounted. why not the other way around ?)
mircea_popescu: (and check out the uniforms, everyone in iraq is O-9 ?!)
mircea_popescu just checked, o-9 pay grade is from 14.5k to 18k A MONTH. it is literally a better deal to be an entry level sysadmin working in pasadena than a lieutenant-general working in baghdad.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: reviewing the travail d'americain the sysadmin puts in, it should come at no surprise that the us last won a war when the europeans ran the effort for them,\
davout: what's that 0-9 thing?
mircea_popescu: like how much money is paid to various military positions in the us.
mircea_popescu: three stars epaulettes as seen in 2nd pic would conventionally indicate a us lieutenant-general, which is paid as an O[fficer]-9, 2nd highest.
mircea_popescu: from context looks like it's prolly worth ~sergeant in iraq. which is not altogether a bad estimation of respective valor.
mircea_popescu: “My heart! The light of my eyes! You are the heroes of Iraq, may God protect you. My soul, my heroes! But for God’s sake get out of the street and take cover from that sniper!” << bwhahaha this is just how arabic goes, too.
mircea_popescu: "oh light of the heavens, divine dove, bring me a glass of water" "honey, i lost you at dove. you want an omlet ?"
davout: god, whoever came up with HATEOAS deserves a bullet in the head
davout: because APIs *have* to be clever, because these people are too good for documentation
mircea_popescu: "since the link was no longer displayed, the spambots are deterred!"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 12:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's take the simplest cycle : a->b and b->a ; to do this, a must contain the hash of b ; and b must contain the hash of a. how do you propose to accomplish this ?
mircea_popescu: i suspect there's another protocol issue at stake here.
mircea_popescu: so let's examine this theoretically. in order to make c, you must have a's hash, yes ?
mircea_popescu: ok. and in order to make b, you must have c's hash, yes ?
mircea_popescu: davout i am fwiw satisfied the problem is as follows : that fielding schmuck is an academitard. therefore publish or perish. meanwhile for incomprehensible reasons people decided to name some obvious item "rest" and reference him, as if he had anything to do. this created the basis for an academitard position for him, and put him in the publish or perish wringer. so he came up with the other thing, because gotta come up with
mircea_popescu: something ; and the decerebrated mechanism will try to shoehorn it in, python 3 style, because IF THEY DO NOT, then academiatardism collapses altogether. they are if you will the academia fans, expending their own labour to support the fiction they enjoy.
mircea_popescu: all this would have been avoided if a) people correctly observed that roy fielding is fundamentally incapable of having ideas, through not being in the wot.
mircea_popescu: (we'll skip over the entire "waka" incident for the sake of public morals.)
☟︎ davout: the first things i get when looking into this waka thing are indeed nasty
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587182 << speaking of this, here's a question for the eager : a diophantine equation is a multivariate polynomial, something like ax+by^2 = 0. the question is : given an arbitrary finite set of known-good equations, can you use recursion to decide whether an arbitrary equation in the same variables is good (has integer solution) or no good ?
☝︎☟︎☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 17:23 trinque trying to wrap brain around whether this is a failure mode or universally true, but will have to implement tail recursion optimization in his own head first
mircea_popescu might have just made the world's subtlest point about recursion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this can't press ; 846f (genesis) is not used subsequently ?
mircea_popescu: yes but the next patches fail to reference the genesis.
mircea_popescu: well, you just did my a->b b->a in three elements of which one is spurious after claiming a->b b->a is not it.
mircea_popescu: what you can't do is go back in time and agree at the juncture you actually meant to ; but the important point here is :
mircea_popescu: hm, actually, the hashes don't even check out. how was 702d... produced ?
mircea_popescu: yes. so what started all of this in my head, i been trying to lead like three times with "but the problem is :" - we may have a very bitcoin block-esque problem on our hands. specifically, the fact that the hash of a block doth not include the intended hash of its antecessor opens up to a problem we needn't be open to.
mircea_popescu: suppose we had a rule stating that "all patches must include as a comment the patch upon they are to be applied" ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: this is fine, but the question is whether the specification as extent is correct
mircea_popescu: specifically whether it shouldn't include a comment requirement as above.
mircea_popescu: yes but why should this be enforced at the promise level.
mircea_popescu: so then why not make it so they are actually impossible ?
mircea_popescu: if all patches are required to change a comment line in all files they touch, so that it contains the hash of that patch's intended antecessor ; then it is no longer possible to build cycles without deliberately hash-mining for them (because to close the cycle you will have to at one point claim as anterior an ulterior item).
mircea_popescu: well yes, but if you do hash mine for them we change the hash.
mircea_popescu: yeah it does add quite a bit of unwanted complexity doesn't it.
mircea_popescu: see, basically the fear here is that we DON'T escape the "swelf aware monstrosity" no matter what we do ; we may merely choose whether its in the comments or "somewhere else" magically.
mircea_popescu: a is a genesis ; b is built on a ; c is built on b ; d is built on c ; e is built on d ; f is built on b ; g is built on d. now both g->d->e->f->b->a and g->d->c->b->a are valid presses.
mircea_popescu: (similarly, from a different pov - does this scheme open up cycle-negrate-arbutrage whereby an attacker could go around closing cycles and hoping we misidentify the culprit because of timing issues ?)
mircea_popescu: you also get guaranteed limited production of patches to 1 per block.
mircea_popescu: i'm not making a positive argument here, and haven't throughout. just trying to examine this thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so your contention here is that it is not possible to link a to g through a (b..f) set of patches such that (b..f) is a cycle and that two different paths exist from g to a ?
mircea_popescu: well this immediately is problematic, because a cycle could be claimed to have been closed more than one way, is the point.
mircea_popescu: in any case i don't want to discuss problems in a marriage with proposed solutions.
mircea_popescu: because a) conventionally cycle-closing patches aren't to be released and b) anyone involved in a closed cycle gets hung ?
mircea_popescu: again : there's no point in discussing solutions as part of discussing problems.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, turns out v actually has a previously poorly understood externality, in the sense of, requires a clock.
mircea_popescu: yes but this is one of those things you eminently do not wish to solve by human arbitrariety i dun think.
mircea_popescu: it's not altogether clear why the "hash whole thing, not just parts like fucking bitcoin blocks do" isn't a better solution. moves the clock externality to a strong hash externality
mircea_popescu: yes, but ordering can be actually implemented by hashing
mircea_popescu: earlier a knowing later b's hash is equivalent to either time travel or hash breaking.
mircea_popescu: yes. this is the point - that order can be introduced by hashing. all items are earlier than all other items whose hashes they know.
mircea_popescu: pff. all items are later than all other items whose hashes they know.
mircea_popescu: i don't actually see any of these. to start with, "hash everything" is exactly not what was done in the example. it hashed ~the text~, it did not hash ~the antecessor's hash~. this is the problem. that it doesn't hash everything, but just the text.
mircea_popescu: let me approach this matter from a different pov. do you agree that a string S consisting of computer code can be, depending on the context in which it is patched, the right thing or a deliberate subversion ?
mircea_popescu: then therefore, do you agree with the proposition that signing S as long as S consists strtictly of computer code with no indication of context is a meaningless at best and dangerous at worst activity ?
mircea_popescu: so then all strings S must incluide the antecedent hash. and in this definition string S = foo.txt ; nothing else.
mircea_popescu: no, because when I hashed to check your hashes i went sha512("Foo Genesis, modified.")
mircea_popescu: i was supposed to go sha512(#846fdfb9d99724efbc97b1d2b519a221df9724dec3375c54913c1853af221c8e5ad5b5b8c38fffe4b654066071eafd8194fe7b86faa5fbadfbf1c5b872e81410 "Foo Genesis, modified.")
mircea_popescu: this is because the "same" string (Foo Genesis, modified.) is NOT THE SAME string, depending on the contemplated context. it is a string in 846fdf... and ANOTHER string in whatever other context.
mircea_popescu: actually, because of how we build the presses, ALL contexts are "so short" as this one ; in the sense the antecedent hash always suffices.
mircea_popescu: ~so long as we ban niggers, politics will work ok. sure, the issue is how to ban them.
mircea_popescu: but any any rate, i think this discussion's exhausted itself, we'll have to see later on what we do about this.
mircea_popescu: (also that it's not currently implemented anywhere, but that's minor. the reason it's not implemented is that it doesn't, at least to my eyes, make much sense.)
mircea_popescu: you're very kind, but the problem doesn't need that redefinition.
mircea_popescu: ordering is provided by hashing ; we're currently not actually using this, no idea why, but whatever. i really mean it when i say the discussion's exhausted itself, im not gonna sit here an' retrace the same circle witcha.
mod6: asciilifeform: hey, say I wanted to test my toposort...
mod6: (i played with this for a long time lastnight after that quick conversation)
mod6: if i take this output hash from genesis for say, net.cpp:
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/net.cpp false
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/net.cpp b72b573ba77b095e2497e297ba5b02aa68317f67438ee070fee86e129a95b85dc9b5ca98e96441bb2b3b98263dd88630990c913affbabf890641f349d1c6da47
mod6: so 'b72b573' ... and drop this into a down-flow vpatch that touches net.cpp, that should cause the cycle right? like so:
mod6: asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch:
mod6: diff -uNr a/bitcoin/src/net.cpp b/bitcoin/src/net.cpp
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/net.cpp c67fdd55e9d9d6b4973122b76729d7e83a456a8dc410f1c130cffbfd9f626c47ca7e8006bde912d9e0bd0a4b8457e895270d4a0efd22c4a199cd52ffd95b10dd
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/net.cpp b72b573ba77b095e2497e297ba5b02aa68317f67438ee070fee86e129a95b85dc9b5ca98e96441bb2b3b98263dd88630990c913affbabf890641f349d1c6da47
mod6: im not sure if i follow. are you saying that genesis isn't a good place to test it because it is a root?
mod6: well, i was trying to discern weather my toposort is correct or not.
mircea_popescu: thinking about it, is it actually possible to make a cycle where at least one element traces back to genesis ?
mod6: and when I do that above test ^, i never hit this line: death("Cyclic Graph!\n");
mod6: yeah, i certainly tried. and i thought i even tested this before... so maybe there was a regression. but i'll admit, that python code is very strange to me eith the for with the else.
mircea_popescu: but that is not ~the~ genesis ; that is merely the same string of code.
mircea_popescu: so now. how would one make a cycle whereof at least one element actually traces back to genesis ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i specifically want a cycle (n >1) where one element traces back to genesis. it seems to me that because one patch can only identify one antecedent, it is not possible to create cycles for the ~same reason organic chemistry doesn't work on hydrogen and oxygen only.
davout: why is it "returning to genesis" rather than "pressing something that happens to be equal to the genesis" ?
mod6: <+asciilifeform> note that a correct vtron will not misbehave if you have this. << am trying this...
davout: and why is it considered an issue? i mean, what if we realize all these patches were retarded, that we roll them all back, but want to keep the flow for historical purposes?
mircea_popescu: per doctrine you're supposed to rebase. can still keep for "historical purpose"
mircea_popescu: because exactly : yours is legal and fine ; mine is trouble.
mircea_popescu: but this is a->b->c->d(=b). the only reason d is confused with b is because we don't hash correctly.
mod6: so i think i've tested exactly what you laid out, asciilifeform, with V99995 (the current version out there), and this is the result:
mod6: "returned to earth"
mod6: any others while i'm at it?
mircea_popescu: that it was supported by some implementation at some point doesn't actually provide it with cognitive content.
mircea_popescu: nono, just previous patch hash. whenever you sit down to write a patch, you sit down to write it atop a press, or at any rate the situation resulting from a press. that has a "last item pressed" by necessity, and THAT will be your header.
mircea_popescu: look : your patch will be sha512(#Patch bfffhlerghhl\nalf's words\n) and my patch will be sha512(#Patch bfffhlerghhl\nmp's words\n)
mircea_popescu: you propose we both write the same code on the same patch ? then yes, they come out the same. this is fine.
mircea_popescu: well in fact, to demand that hashes cover the patch and its context, not merely the patch.
mircea_popescu: by similarity to how we'd like block hashes inbitcoin to cover the whole block and not just parts.
mircea_popescu: but yes, in the last instance, it's to demand that "same patch" can only mean, "same text" + "applied in same place".
mircea_popescu: well, do we actually want this ? it doesn't seem to make sense ; in the sense that when you write the patch in question, you write it atop a specified code ; which is the result of a press ; which has a "last patch applied" necessarily. so that one should be the "antecedent" properly speaking.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but when you write another one, you ~have to~ choose one of them.
mircea_popescu: in any case, as described v becomes an actual bitcoin , very much in the sense of "slavegirl powered btc" - each "block" ie vpatch is mined etc. this de facto allows to have things such as a "development clock" for perhaps other usage.
mircea_popescu: (it is uniquely idiotic to clock v patches by bitcoin - because for eg what happens in 2115 when v is the basis of bitcoin and a bug occurs which makes blocks not happen anymore and has to be fixed by a vpatch which can't exist because no blocks.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you mean that you and i both sign the same patch text in the same tree context, the result here has been the very common, and very benign, MULTIPLE SEALS. which we currently have.
mircea_popescu: except woe, you can't make it because someone already made a patch for this block and you aren't going to see another block without a patch.
mats: the butts are rising
mats: happy non denominational winter holiday
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lemme state this thing from my pov for teh record here.
mircea_popescu: 1. all ordered sets will create cycles whenever the index repeats ; 2. tmsr uses ordered sets to resolve specific problems of code development ; the application is called v ; 3. for the purpose tmsr uses ordered sets for, cycles are intolerable (the turing problem resolves to "acyclic set graph" in this particular case) ; 4. there is no way to guarantee numbers do not repeat.
mircea_popescu: this outlines a theoretical problem, which is present. it does not have many practical implications at the present time for purely political ("thou shalt not cycle!" is an imperative) and sociological (not that many people hammering out that many patches yet) reasons. therefore its solution is not in any sense pressing.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, two different solutions have been considered. one is to attach an outside clock to the process. this has the obvious disadvantage of attaching an outside clock to the process. the other is to modify the indexing process for the set, from the current "index is hash of textual content" to a more advanced "index is hash of textual content + its context". as an exemplary poc it was proposed that this change may be i
mircea_popescu: mplemented as introducing a comment which references the previous item in the indexed set - but this is by no means the only, or the required, or standards-candidate implementation.
mircea_popescu: now, because of a naive "repetition creates cycles" and "index=text content" joint assumption, you automatically imagine that two people signing the same (text+context) pair would create a cycle. not anymore - the situation neatly reduces to "two people sign the same patch", ie, having multiple seals for the same patch.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what i'm looking at here ; none of them correctly reference their antecedent hashes, so it's just random garbage
mircea_popescu: note that "insert random garbage" has not actually been proposed as far as i know.
mircea_popescu: next a line will reference f1bebb8.... and next b line will reference 33529af2cb74...
mircea_popescu: adding it in the actual file makes it part of the hash for the file.
mircea_popescu: dude. adding it in the actual file makes it part of the diff of the patch which makes it part of the hash.
mircea_popescu: adding the hash of the antecedent to the actual file makes that hash part of the diff of the actual file, which makes it part of the hash of the patch (ie, diff of files).
mircea_popescu: yeah, i'm not saying this is some sort of great improvement.
mircea_popescu: i am saying however it makes cycles impossible, so let's see that part.
mircea_popescu: and while he's incapacitated,
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587343 << to briefly revisit the whole "greeks were actually smarter than you" thread : naive set theory (as expoused by, say, frege) runs into a problem known as russel's paradox : should the set of sets that don't include themselves include itself ?
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 19:03 mircea_popescu: should be pretty evident that a dimension defined in terms of divisibility is very fundamentally not the same thing as the latin notion of dimension-as-extensibility.
mircea_popescu: at issue is, of course, the constructivist approach to sets ; ZFC (which is the predominant, if unexamined, contemporaneous basis for set theory) disposes with this naivity, and instead approaches the matter greek-style : all sets are "constructed" by criteria in the sense of carving subsets from the superset V (ie the v Neumann universe). it is perhaps worth noting that russel's own solution favoured ~fucking over logic~ rat
mircea_popescu: her than the obvious renounciation of the constructivist delusion.
mircea_popescu: so yes, monkey makes ballista, shoots man. then monkey settles down, forgets about balista for a minute, spends TWO CENTURIES trying to figure out what man had already said. a rather hollow sort of victory, at least to my eyes.
mircea_popescu: no, my contention is that this "Sameness" is entirely illusory.
mircea_popescu: ie, idiots can not have ideas. no matter what they do.
mircea_popescu: the same exact string, if said by me, is an idea - if said by rando, is nothing.
mircea_popescu: right, which is what happens here. there's no such thing as "code", but only "x's code" even the same word "for" is not the same word.
mircea_popescu: the context is not imagined, but very mach part of a corrent understanding of text.
mircea_popescu: in any case, "-if + for" is NOT the same thing wherever it appears. even if the strings are equal.
mircea_popescu: there's multiple approaches available. a) each patch nails down the whole list of direct antecedents, so it'd be 3 in this case ; b) each patch signer picks an arbitrary antecedent to reference of the list (of here - 3), others are free to "fork" it by picking a different one or w/e.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: well i dunno, the idea of code kinda is to be massive verticals. it;s unclear to me whence this "Signing entire project" comes from either.
mircea_popescu: i also dun get such grumbles ? apparently there's a lot of divergence to be discussed here lol.
mircea_popescu: according to similar legend, there was once a bee dog who saw a glass bottle. because it wasn't red it therefore was grey and because it wasn't fleecy it therefopre was toothy and so the bee dog ran to town and warned everyone of the wolf.
mircea_popescu: the next day, bee dog saw a duck. because it wasn't blue therefore it was white and because it didn't have arms it therefore had claws and the bee dog ran back to town and warned everyone of the white wolf
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 19:26 mircea_popescu: there's multiple approaches available. a) each patch nails down the whole list of direct antecedents, so it'd be 3 in this case ; b) each patch signer picks an arbitrary antecedent to reference of the list (of here - 3), others are free to "fork" it by picking a different one or w/e.
mircea_popescu: yes, but this time a clock is no longer necessary for the beheadings.
mircea_popescu: "how not" is not really a good question ; an example suffices.
mircea_popescu: anyway - so you list all 3 if there's 3. fine. why does this make convergence impossible ?
mircea_popescu: maybe we're not talking of the same thing, but isn't the very patch in question, with its 3 references, a converger ?
mircea_popescu: but this does not prevent c from calling both of them, does it ?
mircea_popescu: much like currently mod6's latest, the makefiles patch. takes 'mod6_der_high_low_s' , 'malleus_mikehearnificarum', and 'asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected' .
mircea_popescu: if a and b are conflictors then the resolution of their differences will be in either a or b tree ; importing code from either b or a respectively to satisfy ; and the other branch may die.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so this makes it a uniquely poor example, seeing how it will conceivably sink the extant scheme.
mircea_popescu: but in practice, should prb decide to come to sanity, the only avenue open to them is to... try and get their patches on the v tree.
mircea_popescu: conflicts aren't liable to be resolvable in general other than through the above described avenue
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was discussinfg an imaginary case where "resolution" actually means what it says.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in general this "make new path and claim the work of others" is always available. i can make new path and claim the work of everyone right now, what's to stop me.
mircea_popescu: suppose i make an bitcoin.mp.1 which is like bitcoin.asciilifeform.1 except it includes #alf stole my girlfriend!
mircea_popescu: and just move the whole tree over there, and claim i made it. what stops me ?
mircea_popescu: so then the same thing here as there ; this attribution issue is not useful to distinguish between the two methods.
mircea_popescu: it's also not clear whence this idea of "recursive signing" comes from but anyway.
mircea_popescu: i don;'t get it, wtf is the problem with the string "Galaxy note" whatever.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 12:50 mircea_popescu: in further news nobody cares about, "4 million letters of 'empathy, support' dropped on Mosul". this thing, which was a) going to be a war that b) was going to take two weeks twelve weeks ago (and then a month, and then two, and here we are) has now degenerated in a fucking spam offensive.
mircea_popescu: nobody could possibly resist the power of modern democracy embeded in its ultimate representation, the unsolicited mailing.
mircea_popescu: pretty sure it's carefully constructed to be poisonous if burned.
mircea_popescu: the modern democracy gotta make items that can not be useful ; and ONLY items that can not be useful.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 13:08 mircea_popescu just checked, o-9 pay grade is from 14.5k to 18k A MONTH. it is literally a better deal to be an entry level sysadmin working in pasadena than a lieutenant-general working in baghdad.
mircea_popescu: sure, as in any socialist totalitarian state, it is better to not even care about the worthless money ; and try and achieve positions of power in the necessary feudal structure.
pete_dushenski:
http://archive.is/Q0e9f << and another example of reddit delusions not being confined to ethereum and shillary. apparently these poor kids are making up their own non-existent 90s movies now.
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 6440.72, vol: 3095817.08510000 | Volume-weighted last average: 6440.72
mats: where do i sign up for this sysadmin job in pasadena than pays more than 200k usd
phf: back during iraq war the salaries for ~sysadmins~ were way above what you could get on the market (i remember looking at listings and vaguely contemplating doing it because it ~looked~ like fun), i.e. 100-150k for 6 month of deployment. i think now because of vc money it has switched.
phf: you get to work from those Sun shipping containers, it was all very gibson bigend trilogy
phf: that's sort of part of the deal
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski hey, they're on the path of recreating a post-enlightenment history in which females actually matter, what's a movie compared.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bulletproof is extremely expensive logistically.
mircea_popescu had bulletproof car, cost ~3.5x what same exact car make and everything cost.
mircea_popescu: in bulletproofing there's really no substitute for mass.
mircea_popescu: the reason is that same old mc^2 ; there's no better heat dampener than water nor better energy dampener than mass.
mircea_popescu: the thing with it is it's layered, no matter the impact energy you get refraction because of the medium variance.
mircea_popescu: so no, sabot or no sabot you're not shooting through the (tiny ass btw) windows.
mircea_popescu: you can jump into a pool ; but if you go fast enough it's concrete not water. same thing with shooting - adding speed does not actually help. even if you can drill it.
phf: hence knife and bullet vests are two different beasts
mircea_popescu: in fact the most dangeroius rounds aren't the outer (ie, very fast) but the inner (ie, just slow enough to spall the shit out of you)
jurov: lexan??? iirc sapphire is used
mircea_popescu: anyway, usually it's glass laminate / policarbonate in layers.
mircea_popescu: well the cheapest thing is to not use one in the first place
a111: Logged on 2016-12-19 18:48 mircea_popescu: anyway, to be fair here : the russians have no interest in waiting ; putin might be uncharacteristically meek, but in general a half dozen us ambassadors starting with the resident in manilla within the next week-10days is perfectly possible. at which point obama actually having the gall to call natl emergency and set aside the transfer of power is not entirely inconceivable. after which the russians WILL sink all the us carr
mircea_popescu: it's not just that the guy's ~not~ part of embassy usg. it's that he's a) pissed publicly on the very faces of the kids of the helicopter moms that make up embassy usg and b) is independently wealthy / intelligent enough to not give the slightest shit about them and their wine parties.
phf: i'd make a "my lawyer's jewish, i know, i'll make im speak to all other jews" joke, but so far trump's appointments that i heard have been very competent :o
phf: seems like the pattern with all the appointments. "competent. has strong animosity towards whatever bureaucratic apparatus he's going to be head of."
mircea_popescu: best way to handle bureaucracy is to force it to spend its time handling itself.
mircea_popescu: he already has a house there. most of these are appointments of convenience, like making serial rapist head of rape dept.
mircea_popescu: (laugh but this happened - TWICE. both national socialism and leninist socialism did this.)
phf: "that was some good shooting for the revolution there. hey you're good at shooting people. you're now the head of my shooting department"
mircea_popescu: the most amusing jewish joke in all this - lo, trump MADE A GOOD JEWISH JOEK. this is infinitely harder than the supposed "witty self-deprecation" imbeciles gathering in new york think funny
mircea_popescu: table stakes keep increasing ; but the good news is they also keep diversifying.