a111: Logged on 2017-04-04 20:42 Framedragger: goddamnit, no email no nothing, the satire (
http://n-gate.com/about/) is just too complete for its own good
mircea_popescu: lol ben_vulpes running his kindergarten with proper red/black stars an errythang!
CompanionCube: ' The Cable.co.uk poll of 2,000 UK adults – the first of its kind since the Westminster attack – found that 66% believe the ability of intelligence agencies to intercept messages between terrorist plotters is more valuable than the digital privacy of the population as a whole.' 'More than half (51%) said they would feel safer if WhatsApp and other messaging services were unencrypted because message sent
CompanionCube: by terrorists could potentially be picked up by police.' Today's standard British idiocy.
mircea_popescu: if anyone had asked the uktards anything it'd even make a difference what they thought.
CompanionCube is a uktard but doesn't particularly like it. There's not exactly much to like at the moment.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Works because expensive safety shit is in vulnerable areas and costs much to fix.
mircea_popescu: tl;dr tedious poetess grabs some bread and meat for the ancestors. reparations, bitch!!1
shinohai: I have met camgirls that play on this reparations thing ...gotta make dem white bois squeal
shinohai: Whether it be Aunt Jemimah or Anti-Semitic Russians, long as I get mine.
mircea_popescu: heh in other lulz : archive.is apparently purged all trilema saves older than sept 2016.
mircea_popescu: i somehow don't believe that thing actually works as long term archiving anymore.
mircea_popescu: hm. or else it's an indexing problem. ancient links seem to work.
lobbes smells a tmsr archive server in the future
☟︎ ben_vulpes: hey how about this for a "txouts for later use in baking transactions" serialization format: textfile <tx_hash>, with contents <value block_height output_index>
ben_vulpes: davout, trinque, mod6, mircea_popescu, danielpbarron, diana_coman, phf, jurov ^^
ben_vulpes: eg produce some data a user can use on an entirely separate box to make and sign txns for rebroadcast however
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes pretty sure you also need the block hash somewhere
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: point me to a 'somewhere', if you'd be so kind
ben_vulpes: but ben_vulpes steals time from mary to pay peter or how did it go, must away again
shinohai: "Free feel to pass on my question, so he can prepare.
shinohai: Q: who here in this circle-jerk sycophant orgy supports the delusion of ideal money, given that Buttcoin is an anti-fragile standard top-down controlled by whales? Ideal for whom? No need to wait for the lulz."
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637547 << you certainly need the pubkey of the input address, which was back in the day the rationale behind the whole "don't reuse addresses" thing -- the pubkey of an address which has paid before is known ; the pubkey of an address which has not paid before isn't known.
☝︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes take for instance 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 : it spends bitcoin produced in the genesis block, and it thereby uses the hash of that block.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: (ie, if you don't also save the block hash, you can't do some edge cases of (currently mostly unsupported, but historically used) txn.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:08 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes take for instance 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 : it spends bitcoin produced in the genesis block, and it thereby uses the hash of that block.
a111: Logged on 2014-02-21 23:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform remember Stoned B ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i misstated. it spends bitcoin (from a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ) for which purpose it needs the genesis block hash
☟︎ mircea_popescu: some puzzle bs. you might remember we discussed that whole nonsense recently.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 20:19 mircea_popescu: idiot example #1 : peter todd & prb idiots came up with "a way to do things", which does not in fact work.
mircea_popescu: god i'm going to have to delve into the whole pile of ancient history
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it\s |OP_HASH256 6fe28c0ab6f1b372c1a6a246ae63f74f931e8365e15a089c68d6190000000000 OP_EQUAL| (no sig)
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it\s |OP_HASH256 6fe28c0ab6f1b372c1a6a246ae63f74f931e8365e15a089c68d6190000000000 OP_EQUAL| (no sig)
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i misstated. it spends bitcoin (from a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ) for which purpose it needs the genesis block hash
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:18 asciilifeform: is what i see in there
mircea_popescu: now then : 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 spends a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ; for this purpose it actually uses the genesis block hash.
mircea_popescu: this is an artefact of ancient idiocy, but what can i say.
mircea_popescu: yeah, on contemplation it's not actually used for anything "standard" so to speak, is it.
mircea_popescu: there is that. but his proposed de facto multiindex (block height txn height txid) works.
mircea_popescu: txn is unique within block, not in global space, would at least make some sense.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform blocks are unique (for storage) so you could compose it out of say height.txid
mircea_popescu: yes. what do you want me to do, shit antimatter ingots ?
mircea_popescu: understand something about "declarations" in this vein : they themselves are an attack, if you can't universally enforce them. the us collapsed out of an attempt to declare that "they, not us, are the bad guys" without the actual strength to enforce this ; so did the soviet union, and so does every inept mother who tries to tell her kid what to do out of line.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: right or wrong make absolutely no difference, even though it's how the female brain gets caught in this
mircea_popescu: as it expects somehow "what's right" to matter naturally.
mircea_popescu: this item clearly gets rolled up into the "either move to ib or die with prb" eventual fork.
mircea_popescu: and in ib, i expect the correct indexing will still be block height . tx index.
mircea_popescu: there's by now a list of about 3-4 of these, all of them similarily sufficient on own strength.
mircea_popescu: (somebody plox send to asn@torproject.org claudiar@princeton.edu laurar@csa.princeton.edu an' pwinter@cs.princeton.edu a notice saying "you forgot to quote phuctor, you dorks".)
Framedragger knows phf and asn from that list personally and knows for certain that they didn't 'plagiarize' from phuctor. but whatever, if phuctor not cited, it's plagiarism because independent thought not possible, etc.
mircea_popescu: ima file a complaint with the princeton plagiarism police.
Framedragger: how about "was discussed in developer meetings *long ago*" (the counter will be "you didn't tell us then so FU", so w/e i guess.)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what was discussed "in a mailing list long ago"
Framedragger: not mailing list, but in person in munich, paris, etc. (granted, "taking my word for it" is not exactly a great argument.)
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : try and find WHERE you register a complaint with teh fucking shitshow that pretends to be a university.
Framedragger: possible weaknesses of rsa keys and the idea to run a "your relay key is weak" service as part of tor metrics infrastructure (tor metrics itself is an old project, ca. 2011)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what was discussed in developer meetings long ago ? "dude wouldn't irt be cool if i invented flight ???"
mircea_popescu: this was discussed in developer meetings cca michelangelo. what of it ?
☟︎ Framedragger: so, phuctor didn't originate the idea, is all.
Framedragger: okay i think i know how trinque feels when being side-dragged into non sequiturs.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the "originate the idea" hogwash is ridiculouys. next you'\re going to bring defenses in copyright cases based on "grimm brothers didn't invent the alphabet so therefore ineptitude is a ok!!1"
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ok i've read it; so your chief issue is that they didn't mention phuctor in-between the initial 2012 study and the 2016 years correct? i mean, bear with me, i'm not baiting.
Framedragger: and you absolutely cannot fathom the humble thought that they simply didn't hear about phuctor?
Framedragger: top hit for every pgp keyid? that's pretty neat.
Framedragger: well, my relay descriptor search service also got crawled loads, but the fact that people didn't know about it wasn't because people ignored it; but just that meat-people (not bots) weren't aware of it.
Framedragger: granted, phuctor gets crawled *more* / *a lot* (i presume, from what you had been telling). so i understand the incredulity of "you haven't heard?!!"
Framedragger: the fact that djb knows and ignores does indeed speak ill of him, i agree.
Framedragger: well, why don't i (unless someone else already planned to do it first?) write to those folks on that ML, informing of phuctor, to see their response? maybe futile at this point and useless, but at least a more constructive reaction.
Framedragger: if they ignore then - i'll donate to bitcoin foundation a bit for generating noise.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: the one with whatshisname, the german?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'll include the why in a formal proceeding. let them FIRST clean up their act
mircea_popescu: since when the fuck does stern look @ slavegirl include litany of misdeeds ? let HER know what she did wrong and let HER fix it.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: what original thing did they take from phuctor, may i ask?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: you mean, on the public record ? so next time starry-eyed Framedragger walks in and is all "oh, princeton, respectable institution" i link him above3 and he has to somehow deal with the cognitive dissonance ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger you've not any standing to ask, so i guess you mayn't ask.
Framedragger: there is no cognitive dissonance in my mind. i know those peeps personally and also simultaneously do not observe any plagiarism. they used things from those 2012 and 2016 projects.
mircea_popescu: fucking ridiculous question. "what did soviet nuclear programme take from allies ? IT IS ALL BASIC SCIENCE!! THERES NAPKINS WITH FARTS DRAWN ON THEM SINCE 1933!111!!"
Framedragger: (i certainly do not have any intention to troll.)
mircea_popescu: look, there's people with all sorts of strange beliefs. i'm not in the business of forcing ideological compatibility. you can live with it, more power to you.
mircea_popescu: also, i invented blackface last week. want to see the first best greatest blackface performance in history of world ?
mircea_popescu: (there was also some work done with blackface in 1715, but that was in france. that's it though, since 1715!)
mircea_popescu: mp's genuine original theatre. doing things that are useful and interesting. give me tax money nao!
diana_coman: Framedragger, fwiw there really is no meaningful way to defend that paper
mircea_popescu: Framedragger no you didn't see it because i had a discussion over coffee before taking the pics with a girl, so this matters now.
diana_coman: Framedragger, does that paper seem to you like an honest piece of research work in any shape?
Framedragger: wasn't a rhetorical question. but i certainly do not wish to waste tmsr's cpu cycles, so no need to answer, either
mircea_popescu: no, this is where we waste cycles. too much productivity is bad for management.
Framedragger: diana_coman: i haven't read the method section yet but so far so good.
mircea_popescu: what a difference a decade makes to academic standards i swear.
diana_coman: on a side note, the only truly lulzy part in there is the footnote on page 1 "All four authors contributed substantially and share first authorship. The names are ordered alphabetically"
diana_coman: esp for those in the know of academia-on-the-topic-of-author-order it screams desperate hunger
mircea_popescu: now, i can see the merit in an argument along the lines of "what the fuck do you want mp, research ? how the fuck is that going to happen if you insist on sticking all the cowpokes indoors ? they'll do what they can, nod along with the rest of the "academia".
mircea_popescu: which is the best possible construction i can put on Framedragger 's notions. "hey, this is what college MEANS NOW. sorry."
Framedragger: btw the "which onion services targeted by those malicious relays" part of the paper is quite nice (from initial glance).
Framedragger: i mean, a large part of the paper is exposition. rsa, dht (relevant to how onion services work), etc.; so, it's not *interesting*. but it's not in any particular way shitty. i wouldn't have read it otherwise and certainly do not see it as very valuable.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I suppose that's pretty much the thing here: by now this is the "best" one can see from that area
diana_coman: a bit like "it's not plagiarising since this is what academia is now"
Framedragger: (still no particular examples why it's bad given, btw)
mircea_popescu: the only problem with this is that it's essentially fraudulent : princeton goes about to old people pretending it's a college, but in reality it's a diploma mill like any other. EXACTLY in the vein of how argentina goes about europe pretending it's a country an' trying to borrow money, when irl it's less of a country than my model train set.
diana_coman: it used to be at least translating useful stuff
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yeah, recall all the hissy fits about "oh this prof translated work, EVIL!11"
Framedragger: diana_coman: do you take issue with any *particular* points, or just the "alphabetic ordering of names oh no"?
diana_coman: Framedragger, the alphabetic ordering of names is inconsequential; that was just chuckles really
Framedragger: "#trilema dislikes a random irrelevant paper for not having mentioned phuctor; the rest of the discussion is about how academia used to be better."
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: *any* pointers to the methodology; *any* untrue or glossy parts; *any* stretching in the conclusion sectoin.
diana_coman: first and foremost I take issue with pretending that an unaknowledged repackaging of other people's work mostly pretends to be research
mircea_popescu: Framedragger alright. does this paper make the statement "we conducted no research of extant art, because [we're too cool for that ; princeton forked off reality ; whatever]" ?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: yes that part is despicable, sure.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: no; and in fact they did carry out experiments, in the sense of data being gathered (including new data - about the state of onion DHT.)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i don't see how this is enabling. by that metric, *everything* is enabling. someone used phuctor to hack into box, phuctor enabled them?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so if it does not make that statement, it imports, like any research paper EVER, the following "the authors have conducted a full review of extant literature relevant to their topic, and swear that the following list is complete and correct :"
☟︎ Framedragger: they *did acknowledge the first study* (2012 - before phuctor.)
mircea_popescu: this is usually included by the shorthand string "bibliography"
☟︎ mircea_popescu: did they live up to what they swore to do, in your evaluation ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i see what you mean. do you think this "it then necessarily follows" is truly "necessarily"? what do others think? i do see what you mean, tho.
mircea_popescu: this chaining of knowledge, for your info, is the CORE of academia.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: it exists in nothing and in no way outside of this. this is all it is. raping your students is not relevant
diana_coman: Framedragger, the underlying issue from my point of view is that intellectual dishonesty essentially bars one from claiming to do research; they might be doing advertising, writing, experiments or anything else, but not research since they are not after finding things out as they are, but about finding something to eat or whatever
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i am quite content with their bibliography section. they did not include phuctor (but included the other studies before and after phuctor), and that is a failure on their part. they can be informed and will even perhaps address this point. that does not fail *the whole paper* in my books, however.
mircea_popescu: and yes people take umbrage with very little bullshit, which is not unreasonable, because a) very little bullshit is never alone (we know this, because unlike the dicklets involved, we HAvE EXPERIENCE in the fucking field) and b) it doesn't take much to throw everything off, bullshit compounds while truth decays.
diana_coman: " will even perhaps address this point." <- omfg
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so it doesn't fail it in your book. what of it. i brought a whore to my grandma's dinner once, it didn't disqualify her in my book. that's what books are for.
Framedragger: diana_coman: i don't believe that phuctor is *that* important, yes.
diana_coman: very little bullshit allowed to stand quickly expands until there is (nor can there be) anything else than bullshit
diana_coman: Framedragger, understand: this is not about "importance"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger is this evaluation based on something outside or just emotional ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: acknowledged; weak point on my end.
diana_coman: it's like saying "oh, that guy is not 'important' hence his findings can be stolen"?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: not emotional; in fact i will go further and claim that *your* evaluation stems from a bit of butthurt (which is human, of course.)
mircea_popescu: in what sense first (actually) biggest (actually) project to factor rsa is "not that important" ? who did something more important in the interval and what was it ?
diana_coman: Framedragger, the issue is that it is RELEVANT
mircea_popescu: you can claim all you want, but what's it to do with anything. for all you know i'm drunk. what's that change.
Framedragger: diana_coman: you are forgetting the detail where phuctor wasn't the first to do what it did.
mircea_popescu: where's the pre-phuctor phuctor ? can i has links ? something ?
mircea_popescu: and please no hn posts of dorks patting each other on back over "meetings"
Framedragger: asciilifeform: how little of the data is public is indeed *shameful*, and in that regard, phuctor should be lauded for making all data available.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger this is a ridiculous stance. not published = not existing
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: then all of the publications which do not publish raw data are null?
mircea_popescu: all publications which do not publish the data are newspaper articles.
Framedragger: that's a great stance of course, but i do believe that this disqualifies all but, i don't know, to speculate, "30" publications SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME
☟︎ diana_coman: and the fact that there is a lot of null published doesn't make it less null
mircea_popescu: Framedragger this great stance happens to have been held for many years, sucyh as for instance when in 2010 diana_coman didn't sleep a weekend to liberate the ro min of edu's data.
mircea_popescu: because it's the only fucking stance because what the everloving fuck.
Framedragger: 100% of psychology papers including early publications; *most* of physics, etc etc.
Framedragger: look, i agree with this attitude; the ssh banners, etc etc are and will remain publicly available. these are *important* standards to have.
Framedragger: i take issue with disqualifying *everything* which does not also publish raw data, though.
mircea_popescu: that we look down at people with "lower" standards ? that we deem "lower" == "absent" ?
Framedragger: it's just too extreme, i believe, and *impractical* (i wonder, did feynman publish raw data?)
mircea_popescu: the most practical thing is to write junklets about how potent and sexy obama is all day.
mircea_popescu: THIS is why fucking science is science and not, again, palace literature.
mircea_popescu: besides, you operate on the same exact paradigm, except when you deliberately turn off your brain and any sense of decency to participate with the empire of idiots. witness : if i now say "hey guise, i found way to crack asciilifeform 's key, will publish tomorow"
mircea_popescu: will you mark it as "alf key craked" or "alf key maybe vulnerable, gotta read this tomorrow" ?
Framedragger: well the latter, of course, but how you can stretch this example i'm not sure...
mircea_popescu: early publication == newspaper article. not in any sense research paper.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what stretch ? i did an "early publication" of my research! was worth jack shit to you!
Framedragger: to remark in jest, this makes my own work more easier because i can dismiss any cs papers relevant to $work if they deal with data but do not also publish data. "not science, boss!1"
mircea_popescu: and since we're discussion princeton : i wasn't going to say anything (which is why i didn't back then), but when some guy found metallic H ( see
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-17#1628809 ) princeton idiots came with a replicating experiment and have been trying to replace the original author with themselves ever since. which is just about as shameful.
☝︎ mircea_popescu: of course replicating experiments are done all the time ; the important point being that they didn't identify theirs as such.
mircea_popescu: so it's not like i'm discussing "isolated incident". there's a very well established pattern of dishonest behaviour. not just at princeton, either.
Framedragger: last note mircea_popescu, paper in question does acknowledge the fact that as regards rsa factorisation, their attempt is a *replication* (unless i misread). but yes, should be beaten for not mentioning phuctor.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger how the forklet of frauds is constructed exactly is of no interest. yes they keep coming up with mealy-mouthed ways to try and hide the fact that they';re dishonest. fine.
Framedragger: right. (i think this concludes this discussion. i'm doing some mental gymnastics which are ~pretty shitty (i'm not ready to dismiss all research prima facie which may not link to raw data, and/or may have failed to mention prior art), and i will get rid of them sooner or later, but not yet. thanks for indulging.)
☟︎ mircea_popescu: "oh, we said we were a replication -- just, not of the right thing!" , typical americana "this will hold until someone looks at it". from the legal system to everywhere else, country's chock full of that hopeful nonsense.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger not like you have to, ever. for as long as you find it pays for you, by all means.
mircea_popescu: not a matter of some grandstanding oughts here. very cold calculation, it just dun pay. ymmv.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 14:43 Framedragger: right. (i think this concludes this discussion. i'm doing some mental gymnastics which are ~pretty shitty (i'm not ready to dismiss all research prima facie which may not link to raw data, and/or may have failed to mention prior art), and i will get rid of them sooner or later, but not yet. thanks for indulging.)
ben_vulpes: "138kloc of cpp written by grad students? that i can't have? that only runs on golden toilet supercomputer? mmmok"
mircea_popescu: eh, people get actual climate datasets all the time, end up exposing "data regularization" in the sense of "our definition of average ocean temperature is = largest measured +3, wut, problem??" it gets reported, people who can think read, people who can't think upvote each other on hn, etc.
ben_vulpes: there is that, doesn't change that sim is unpublished part of system on basis of which claims are being made
mircea_popescu: yeah. well, it got force-published once, to much "unhappened" hangwringing and posturing.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637792 << this for the record is quite false. there's a lot of research published, up until when the "our democracy" imbeciles saw themselves in the position of "running things" and they came up with the current pseudo-academic nonsense. i suppose "bologna system" +- a decade or two.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 14:32 Framedragger: that's a great stance of course, but i do believe that this disqualifies all but, i don't know, to speculate, "30" publications SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME
mircea_popescu: (for they who don't know, bologna is how you say baloney.)
diana_coman sees a bit of a younger Diana's shock along the lines of "it can't really be true that 99% of the world I live in is actually rotten to the core" on re-reading Framedragger's replies
Framedragger: maybe. :) i'm aware that most of it is ~crap, but this is more like "99.99%" vs. 99%. also, i'll make a note to check if feynman included data in any publications which dealt with data (i.e. not only pure models.)
mircea_popescu: it's a well chosen example. he might well not have. because "o noes, laws".
Framedragger: and did calculations on computor, too (but not sure if relevant to any research)
mircea_popescu: anyway, the most this'll do is make feynman more dubious, not the anti-principle more acceptable.
diana_coman: Framedragger, if it adds up to "only 30 papers in TOTAL" it means you are not going back long enough really
mircea_popescu: eg the one in fundamental physics i quoted above does include.
mircea_popescu: it's not like genuine science isn't made by genuine scientists. the pretense to the contrary is the other half of the scum delusion. cannonically "you have no option BUT to build raft out of lcd".
mircea_popescu: that thing is of two parts : a) broke your house and b) there's nothing else.
mircea_popescu: defeating a does not mean i'll now accept b, the whole fucking point is to extirpate the empire of stupid, not to drive in one branch by the measure driving the other out.
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is how the middle class ended up poor : "a) we are living above our means and headed for bankruptcy, but b) our means are so disproportionate to our living by now that attempting to live within our means can not be called living!!1"
mircea_popescu: supposedly this is an unsolvable dilemma, at least for any housewife that's never met the whip.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 06:59 mircea_popescu: they drew the conclusion that optionality is not enough, and work safety must be provided through regulation.
mircea_popescu: this is a fundamental problem in humans, that they'll take overdangerous work.
mircea_popescu: amply documented (though mostly in early 1900s work, so i guess from a certain perspective lost by now)
mircea_popescu: it's (unsurprisingly) a male trait, and a young'un trait, which explains other things too
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn't mean problem as in "bad thing to fix" i meant problem as in "legitimate topic"
mircea_popescu: it's for instance one of the best bio-based challenges to say rational economic agent theory.
mircea_popescu: see, this is what i mean by problem : it's not even clear if this is a more-bee or less-bee characteristic!
mircea_popescu: this can be argued. but then again ~all war literature proposes the contrary
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so is your proposition that "marry good man ; make him good children" = same thought any bee'd think if born of Γιατί μόνο εσείς, οι Λάκαινες, έχετε εξουσία πάνω στους άνδρες ?
mircea_popescu: incidentally, a couple of people asked for details and i linked them the logs, if noobs show up do me a favour and up'em.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:04 mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637547 << you certainly need the pubkey of the input address, which was back in the day the rationale behind the whole "don't reuse addresses" thing -- the pubkey of an address which has paid before is known ; the pubkey of an address which has not paid before isn't known.
ben_vulpes: as soon as one attempts to spend from one of those hashed addresses you're in a race with everyone to get the txn confirmed though
ben_vulpes: i dunno how ecdsa break is not bullet for btc
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 03:19 lobbes smells a tmsr archive server in the future
Framedragger: yeah yeah, and i recall discussion about how archive.is does this (phf had some notes), etc.; it's quite icky.
Framedragger: all doable, but relatively tricky (of the icky kind, i.e., one has to try out some things, and will end up with a set of semi-hacks due to webstack being one large hack.)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: known bitstate, you mean, a unique fingerprint exposed to websites?
Framedragger: ah. well, i can imagine a fleet of VMs (on an ok-to-be-pwned, of course) emulating browser for this.
Framedragger: this was addressed, no? restrict to in-channel use, and/or l1+l2 or something or other.
Framedragger: archive.is already serves the "for the all peoples" function.
Framedragger: enemy which knows and tracks this but which is not capable of extracting/tracking current requests to archive.is?
Framedragger: thing is, the irc wrapper on top of gpg challenge-response is *thin* (at least in, say, scriba), and easily removable/changeable.
Framedragger: but i guess you're saying that this particular archiver would rely on irc state (otherwise quite cumbersome to do challenge-response per every url request), which of course is quite bad.
Framedragger: but then if things are coded correctly, it shouldn't be hard to swap irc for gossipd later, imho
Framedragger: i.e., the interface of the 'is_this_request_coming_from_legit should not be too irc-specific.
Framedragger: can also make irc-independent endpoint (
http or w/e) which does WoT gpg challenge-response. prototype would speak a thousand words though, i suppose. :)
Framedragger: ^ re. endpoint, oops no need for *challenge*, just a specific format for gpg-signed msg. (this is basically mpex interface, i guess.)
phf: that's what archive.is technically does. the js problem is "solved" by letting the jser do it's thing and get the ~dom~ into some state. archive.is actually stores the resultant dom rather than original html
Framedragger: curious if latter is due to js emulator not being 'good enough', or blacklisting (who dares archive us!1)
phf: i've been browsing the web using dillo/netserf from openbsd box and realized just how broken it become compared to even 5 years ago. only places that you can still render on old browser are the backalleys. uncle al style homepages, tmsr, *chans
phf: Framedragger: in case of archive.is there's no "js emulator". it's proper js. usually what happens is that your browser sends various events when the network load is complete, and the dom is rendered
phf: after the events though there's still potentially a few ticks while js assembles the page
phf: customary you put a few second timeout, but even that might not be enough
Framedragger: hmm. i suddenly became concerned with potential failed archival requests from scriba - will check log (iirc not many failures, tho - otherwise would know.)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i sometimes check "archived sites" log (separate file) and it looks ~healthy (but no deep inspection).
phf: also, these days you have js packing frameworks (like browserify) doing frontend on-demand js loads, which means that ~browser~ doesn't know when page load is complete. you get "lightweight" pages, that don't actually have anything until 8mb of javascript gets its shit together.
Framedragger: so, if tmsr were to have its own archiver, i don't think archive.is' approach is the way to go, even though it is (arguably, maybe) the most 'reliable' / 'true' (actual js rendering in browser). exposing user to JS defeats half its purpose. imho.
doppler: "constantly horrified" is my universal internet status
phf: Framedragger: you don't have to expose the user to js with archive.is approach
Framedragger: phf: you mean, js rendering done server-side? sorry i got confused i guess
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's not measurably bad. theoretically it weakens the problem of "spend somone else's inputs".
phf: Framedragger: yes, archive.is is a headless webkit. it loads the page with all the resources, it lets the javascript run until the DOM is in some "final" state, it snapshots the DOM. at this point you no longer need javascript to further render page
☟︎ Framedragger: asciilifeform: standalone command line program makes sense indeed (and can be 'wrapped' in web/irc service if need be, later)
Framedragger: phf: ah, but i meant the initial rendering phase - the 'archive this plz' process itself. but thanks for clarifying yeah
mircea_popescu: ah i see alf addressed. it's an exercise in typical expertsexchange wankery, total misunderstanding of engineering etc.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: as phf said, archive.is output does not contain js. just to clarify.
phf: doesn't have to contain rather. i'm sure they don't scrape it diligently enough.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> ideally you want it running in a qemu-like thing with randomly-generated instruction set. << this may be overkill. could as well run it in a rom-os machine or something.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ocr idea is miserable, sadly, because so many glyphs and nonsense.
phf: state of the art for blind folx is misserable.
Framedragger: i can ask one such folk ('camlorn on #libaudioverse - has his own 3d audio library, competent at what he does). i recall him explaining the shitshow that was getting cs degree by translating cs paper pdf (horror)
phf: basically agent on top of internet explorer/others that, with a specially annotated page (ARIA standard) can make the experience usable
Framedragger: asciilifeform: best software / environment by his recollection was on windows, which was sadnews
phf: asciilifeform: that is not though how rendering works on "modern os". unlike x there's no central authority on glyph rendering. instead you have layers of surfaces that each app manages on its own.
Framedragger: ^ sorry meant "*math* paper pdf" (think, formula in shit format). eughhh
mircea_popescu: phf> state of the art for blind folx is misserable. << about same as in 1997.
phf: but it doesn't invovoke truetype ~as one last pass~. instead you have fifty different truetype invocations to lay out a small surface, that's placed into an hierarchy of such surfaces
mircea_popescu: i even linked some lulz re idiot font loading in wwwturds.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: not familiar / wouldn't know. my exposure to the whole thing was literally just "found relevant library; hop on irc to ask the author; chat for a while; realise he's blind; ask about his experience"
mircea_popescu: i suspect alf is blessfully unaware of what utter shitshow fonts / glyphs are irl. and bid him keep his innocence
doppler: too bad web developers ever received the power to control the rendering of their sites so closely
mircea_popescu: doppler but you know, when people get self-determination and the right to make their own decisions, everything improves.
doppler: what about the website-viewer's right to make their own decisions?
mircea_popescu: sorry i can't hear you over the sound of hillary clinton's pantsuit.
phf: asciilifeform: there's ~one~ true type library, but it's called at random times to render a small part of the page, so by simply following the invocations you won't be able to reconstruct how the individual results fit into the on-screen
mircea_popescu: phf provided eg "java runtime fonts" aren't there on top of x11-fonts etc
phf: a sentence like "hello world this is test" might get an invocation like render("world this") followed by render("hello") followed by render("is test"), simply because higher level widget engine decided that's the order of exposure, or hierarchy, or whatever
mircea_popescu: it's the way of the future ; everything is connected etc.
phf: right, not to mention competing rendering engines ("system wide library doesn't kern glyphs the way our ui designer thinks is appropriate so we do it ourselves!!1")
mircea_popescu: (this happens a lot more than anyone sane would on his own power imagine)
mircea_popescu: "why THE FUCK do you want to mess with the fonts" "because we truly have nothing to do with our time" "Do you understand reading speed decreases 3x if the reader has to deal with unfamiliar typefaces ?" "uuga booga"
mircea_popescu: half literate fucktards, all typefaces are new to them all the time.
CompanionCube sometimes wishes we could banish entirely-JS 'websites' from the face of the earth
doppler: I'm so glad flash player sites are mostly gone now, but JS has just taken its place really
mircea_popescu: im not even sure wtf the design goals would be, which is why we're wallowing
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: problem is that ipads will display different to desktop
CompanionCube: and since you will most likely want desktop version...
mircea_popescu: doppler flash is stiull live and well in the "browsere games" niche. heck, adobe recently made new linux flash (after years of stfu)
mircea_popescu: well i didn't want to archive "artists" flash bs in 2007 either
doppler: ^-- that's what I was referring to.
mircea_popescu: honestly i'm not even sure i actually want to archive, eg, fake news sites.
mircea_popescu: at least to my eyes, archiving to date was there to provide a sort of cheaper and lighter deedbotting for webpages.
mircea_popescu: but the majority of those webpages were republican rather than imperial.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this is part of the problem of "wtf were the design goals again ?" -- swiss knife syndrome, many things for many people at many different times.
mircea_popescu: yeah. it sounds like the right thing but in the process of so sounding hides under a welded shut hood all the design trade-offs which'll need to be made.
mircea_popescu: else any random rustard can throw a wrench in your whole thing. "gotta support fdlkgjkldfjl!!~11"
Framedragger: (i suppose an imperfect ('may fail on particularly gruesome imperial sites', say) prototype as a *standalone command line program* would make sense.)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger would be nice, but conceivably you'd be stuck bolting js to links or such
Framedragger: we use it for website-with-loads-of-js-logic scraping
Framedragger: worx. (heavier than scrapy in that can handle 'need js to click on 'next' button' logic)
Framedragger: CompanionCube: that's just one use case, to be clear
Framedragger: (and that use case existing is good signal in this case)
mircea_popescu: i suppose in principle could exist as an "proper archival browser extension". i suppose very close to what ppl like browsershots etc do
mircea_popescu: part of the problem being that common browser instructed to "Save page" will proceed to save the html rather than the dom, or however you call the ast in www.
Framedragger: quite sure that it's possible to dump dom in selenium but in any case, yes dumping it seems like a prerequisite, like what archive.is does and what phf said above
☟︎ mircea_popescu: danielpbarron what format is the mysql database stored as, sql ? its native binary whatever it is ?
☟︎ Framedragger: asciilifeform: do you mean that "single archive request handled by dedicated process which terminates at end of request" wouldn't be enough in terms of cleanup? (due to js as vector of attack to machine?)
Framedragger: i wonder if "can run archive requests on 'uncleaned' (i.e.: already possibly infected) VM" could be allowed for. it's not exactly a gpg-signed-msg timestamping service.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: lenin returned to russia 100 years ago in april. COINCIDENCE?
phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1638105 << dumping dom is not hard (it's innerhtml attribute on document.body/head), extracting images/objects is harder. used to be able to do it using canvas, but not there's security provisions. you literally have to go into the browser's cache (via internal apis) to got the graphic, etc. back. or else redownload, which is rife with potential issues
☝︎☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 18:06 Framedragger: quite sure that it's possible to dump dom in selenium but in any case, yes dumping it seems like a prerequisite, like what archive.is does and what phf said above
mircea_popescu: wait, putin bombed his own loyal subjects ? what is he supposed to be, bahamas ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno "same reason ustard did it" applies outside of "the country"
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: but putin wouldn't get much more power unlike bush
Framedragger: phf: ugggghhh. (now i recall you possibly mentioning this in relation to archive.is; i see i see.. that's what they do)
phf: Framedragger: right, you have dom, you have running javascript, can do all kinds of things to dump/before dump. what you don't have through any legitimate means is the byte sequence for a linked object. at least with headless webkit (via Qt) you can instrument cache with special methods that would give you that data. selenium not at all
Framedragger: ty for fixing model in head. even more sad now
Framedragger: CompanionCube: i checked and apparently selenium is primarily branded as 'automation framework' - you're right (but folx use it for scraping)
mircea_popescu: i've been meditating on this, wtf is www even for, again ?
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: the north korean ideology? not really.
mircea_popescu: what happened to "butcher all the males, sell all the females into prostitution", like god intended ?
mircea_popescu: that's the correct solution to "we all started in 5k bc, but zee germanz got tanks first"
mircea_popescu: as for instance the recent princeton thing may have suggested, /me is not at all fond of this juche business.
Framedragger: (the latter (irredentist) in my mind are filed under 'reactionary' (maybe not the right word), yeah; iac, many fall into these, it seems)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what do you suppose their wankery is, besides "oh, we got nothing but teh fighting spirit! princeton lives on!11"
Framedragger: this almost seems worth of an asciilifeformitonic article
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is drastically untrue. the part that has any sort of intellectual future is the butchering of the failed males.
mircea_popescu: this is a delusion shared by all orcs, including the original jucheans.
mircea_popescu: note that at the time british liutenant fucked "empress of true sky blabla" because he felt like it that day, the english were also "outnumbered"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was being prescriptive, not descriptive.
mircea_popescu: the correct path forward to "make america great again" is to kill everyone male and ship everyone female to beijing for auctioning off.
mircea_popescu: a much milder version of this is how, eg, russia came back ; and certainly how china even became a thing wihin our lifetimes.
scriba: ssh banner of 95.141.113.130 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
mircea_popescu: did i recount the story of the very respectable fellow who lived with us for a week or so early 90s ?
mircea_popescu: hey, what can i tell you. if you were in the town when the town caught a little fire, uncle celestial teapot wants you. noli turbare circulos meos may work, but just as well may not work.
mircea_popescu: merv, or generally the mongol reduction of persia from a coupla million to a coupla hundred thousand is the fundamental civilisational act. not the building of the scum, but the purging of it. much like "writing prb" is not an achievement in computer science ; but purging it into trb is.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 18:06 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron what format is the mysql database stored as, sql ? its native binary whatever it is ?
mircea_popescu: reinstating from the dump is easy, just go into the bash and say mysql < file
danielpbarron: biggest hurdle is getting my hands on a copy of mp-wp
shinohai: danielpbarron: Didn't I give yu a copy?
danielpbarron: i don't have a copy. maybe freenode dropped a line idk
danielpbarron: also i've been banging my head against a wall trying to figure out how to get LILO to work (should have taken notes the first time!!)
danielpbarron: LILO is the last thing in my way of publishing a gentoo-quest for eulora recipe
CompanionCube: any particular reason for lilo over syslinux or grub?
danielpbarron: while on that subject: i hear it has hardware raid built in. do you recommend using this?
CompanionCube would go for syslinux if smallness/simplicity was desired
danielpbarron: i can get lilo to show its kernel select menu, and then i tries over and over again (with seemingly random time before giving up) to load the kernel
mircea_popescu: ie, are you sure you put the drive as the FIRST physical device in the "array" ?
mircea_popescu: because otherwise it doesn't loop and fails to find it.
danielpbarron: i have lilo working on this machine infront of me that runs eulora, same hp workstation, but it is using an IDE cable to connect rather than sata
mircea_popescu: iirc that bug was eventually fixed but possibly not in your version.
danielpbarron: yeah lilo needs /boot to be in "the first 1024 cylinders of one of the first 2 drives"
danielpbarron: er um, signing it too. or i can send you random string to enclude with it if you want
shinohai: nah gimmie just a sec ill sign it
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i don't see where i would set 'legacy' mode in my bios
shinohai: How to make a colorful rats-nest in 5,683 easy steps
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 460569 | Current Difficulty: 4.99635929816E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 461663 | Next Difficulty In: 1094 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> it's a thing that has 2 modes, 'ahci' and 'legacy' (or 'compatibility') << I refer to these modes internally as "James Lafond Presents Baltimore" and "Antebellum Kitchen"
ben_vulpes: > parent with television, it makes your life easier
ben_vulpes: > die in a fire with everything you love
ben_vulpes: no, the thing that plays sesame street so that you can play candy crush instead of parenting
danielpbarron: oh i heard one of those "if this was a real emergency" things that actually was an "emergency" -- it said a kid was missing, last seen... WITH FATHER
ben_vulpes: oh hey did i successfully turn amber alerts off?
phf: i was about to refresh my openbsd version and discovered that openbsd no longer make/sell a 3-cd set. end of an era
ben_vulpes: lol are you one of those numismatic folks?
phf: asciilifeform: you some kind of terrorist?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: can one even get discs 'pressed' anymore?
danielpbarron: what is the proper way to deed such an item? clearsign the sha512sum ?
☟︎ ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: look at how mod6 did the turds
ben_vulpes: oh i'm sure i can modify a pressed aluminum disk
ben_vulpes: what is scope of 'modify' in this context; can stick in openly hostile machine?
phf: well, i bought 5.9 "while supplies last", though i believe they are rolling out 6.1 next
danielpbarron: i bought for exactly these reasons you are going over, back when obsd was still in favor here
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> the thing that tells you when the nukes have dropped ?! << the original inventors of the telethon
phf: they are nifty cds. with artwork and "theme" and a bonus mp3 that somehow fits the theme. the works. oldschool artifact
danielpbarron: i stopped paying much attention to obsd a year+ ago
danielpbarron: says openbsd in a "jesus fish" that's redesigned to look like a rocket
ben_vulpes: in other epic fucking lulz, us customs and border handed down a 10MM penalty for violating the Jones Act
ben_vulpes: cannot use foreign flagged vessels to transport goods between points in the us
ben_vulpes: coulda taken the rig in question by law, but kindly agreed to a 10MM fine.
phf: asciilifeform: i can't find any announcement. only mention is on the front page, everywhere else it's same as it's always been
phf: right, 6.0 also had a cd, i think 5.9 is leftover stock
shinohai: I was actually thinking about it after my last catastrophe
danielpbarron: oh you mean they don't sell the old ones? that's always been the case. they make a run and sell till they sell out
shinohai imagines eatblock pausing .... "Please insert disk 30 ...."
shinohai: They would simply recycle the disks
mircea_popescu: eh, i'm sure they don't imagine the actual blockchain may get lost.
mircea_popescu: they just imagine they may get away with their pretense, is all.
mircea_popescu still recalls fondly when bg press plant came online, late 90s. ALL the pretense of westards re "copyright" died that day.
mircea_popescu: came back later, of course. but for a few years -- everything was available at a quarter a pop.
mircea_popescu: possibly the peak of bulgarian tech at the time. those dudes were enamoured with agriculture.
mircea_popescu: thing ran 100k iron maidens one night. it was awesome.
ben_vulpes: i might not have cared enough to register it
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 04:57 trinque: pretty hard for me to condemn assad while my ass still sits in the country that sold al qaida chemical weapons to be used, then blamed on assad.
phf: maybe he's finally been explained
mircea_popescu: provided one deems the difference between extremely unlikely and impossible in any sense relevant.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-16 00:43 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is no time bound on 'clitler wins'
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> sorry i can't hear you over the sound of hillary clinton's pantsuit. << lel