mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587625 << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 21:35 mod6: which basically means to me, either no one understands "vtronics" or no one who did ever audited the thing. and i'm clearly not qualified and shouldn't have written the fucking thing int he first place.
mircea_popescu: 't think you're an expert email or vim or bash user after less than a year and that's about how long v's been around.
mod6: fair enough Sir.
mod6: So I have a bit of code that I've inserted that will do what you ask.
mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mod6: err 'validate_seals'. that's the one.
mircea_popescu: does death() mean it skils over that vpatch ?
mod6: and it's one of the first executing routines in my v.
mod6: death() means that we die. we stop then and there. continue no further.
mod6: consider the following paste I'll put together... stand by.
mircea_popescu: alrighty.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/DXpy9/?raw=true
mod6: http://dpaste.com/29E2V55.txt
mod6: i need to dig into this a bit more, but the output flow is not necessarily the same order that the signature verification happens in.
mod6: that's because toposort hasn't happened yet.
mod6: bbs.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/ontario-standardized-test-resorts-to-graphite-based-security-measures/ << Qntra - Ontario Standardized Test Resorts To Graphite Based Security Measures
mircea_popescu: mod6 in any case if you'd have never written the thing you'd have never found this thing. so you know, it's always worth losing fingers.
pete_dushenski: heh. graphite-based.
asciilifeform: https://rudd-o.com/archives/confirmed-1984-style-censorship-in-europe/index << lelz from qntra commentz
asciilifeform: 'If there's a middlebox in the Swedish ISP side (theory 1), we should see that HTTP 302 responses come back much faster than HTTP 200 responses, because a hypothetical middlebox will sit between the Swedes and upstream, and therefore may respond much faster than upstream. If there is no middlebox (theory 2) we'd see comparable response times for HTTP 200 and HTTP 302. Of course, no middlebox implies quite strongly that it's the Dai
asciilifeform: ly Mail itself doing the censoring.' << this is not a necessary hypothesis, swedish mitm could easily smooth out the response times (by slowing, or, alternatively, caching, the victim site)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587680 << fwiw i stuck to using my old rusty one, until quite recently☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587625 << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn
asciilifeform: and for no especially good reason.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his reasoning is fucking broken ; same time means nothing, if he found difference it might've meant something
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: but also the enemy could make the time difference come out to either direction, as he chooses.
mircea_popescu: at least in principle.
asciilifeform recalls the peculiar mitm from dulap-1
BingoBoingo so far happy with end of the year lulz acceleration following slow early december
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587685 << the simplest way to implement this is to iterate over the ~seals~, finding corresponding patches☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mircea_popescu: not particularily correct ; should iterate over patches, check sealness ; act accordingly.
mircea_popescu: im not sure it has to die when it encounters malformed patch (be it not signed or whatever), but anyway.
asciilifeform: iterating over seals lets you produce the 'take seals only of so-and-such'
mircea_popescu: so does iterating over patches.
asciilifeform: you're stuck doing so anyway.
asciilifeform: iterating over patches is O(N^2) (unless the files are correctly named, patch.nickname.sig, which we do, but imho is a bit of a cheat)
asciilifeform: we did this thread.
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ?
asciilifeform: !#s O(N^2)
a111: 21 results for "O(N^2)", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=O%28N%5E2%29
mircea_popescu: yes ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-18#1375120 << thread☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-01-18 15:35 ascii_butugychag: jurov: theoretically you can avoid using the name prior to .sig, but then you have to check ALL seals agains ALL patches ALWAYS and this is O(N^2)
mircea_popescu: yes, i know the thread, i was in it. feel free to address http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-15#1238752 at any point eh.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-15 17:46 mircea_popescu: why ?
mircea_popescu: and patches are checked against seals ; not seals against patches.
asciilifeform: because eventually mircea_popescu et al will gripe about 'this is dog slow'
mircea_popescu: no they won't ; partly because we won't be doing anything idiotic like "giving random names to seals".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the current setup (with the patch.nickname.sig) is an artifact of the idiocy of pgp, where one cannot take the signature and extract a hash from it with which you can look up the patch from a manifest of patch hashes in O(NlogN)
mircea_popescu: for every patch, check if patch sig by approved names is present. this isn't any sort of N^2 ; it's O(N*M) where N is the count of patches and M the count of approved signers.
asciilifeform: tru
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has it, it is O(NM)
mircea_popescu: the disadvantage of being clever is that one will be surprised.
asciilifeform: at least when using gpg.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: one more http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/BzhMJ/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: well when we finally have better-pg, we may do different things, but really...
pete_dushenski: bbl
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587685 << the simplest way to implement this is to iterate over the ~seals~, finding corresponding patches << <+mircea_popescu> not particularily correct ; should iterate over patches, check sealness ; act accordingly. << 'validate_seals' does this; iterates over patches, finds seals for patch, verifies or fails if bad ;; now dies if there are none.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> im not sure it has to die when it encounters malformed patch (be it not signed or whatever), but anyway. << i was thinking this was simple because of this:
asciilifeform: mod6: you ought to be able to press variant-wots (say, mod6-only) without having to also remove patches mod6 did not sign from patches dir
asciilifeform: they should simply be ignored.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> there shouldn't be any flag - nor should it press unsigned things. && <+mircea_popescu> with the test key ? why not ? fucks with your workflow ?
mod6: i think it's fine. you make a testkey, you sign your test vpatches, you press & test, etc. then we're using encryption everywhere. and we fail fast.
mod6: we don't not allow the oppertunity to continue without a signature on a vpatch.
mircea_popescu: mod6 if it simply skips over the patches it can't find acceptable sigs for, it delivers asciilifeform 's thing above where you don't have to keep fucking around with the patch set.
asciilifeform: it's what my original vtron did (when in normal operating mode)
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: you ought to be able to press variant-wots (say, mod6-only) without having to also remove patches mod6 did not sign from patches dir << now this.
mircea_popescu: it should probably stop if it finds valid patch that can't be applied (mismatched hashes) - because by then your state is broken.
mod6: this perhaps works as is, in a way.
mod6: if you want 'mod6' only, you remove all other guys from your wot
mod6: well, lemme check
mod6: i can't recall.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: incidentally a vtron that has my 'origin' op, can check any tree for consistency simply by iterating over the files and running origin(hash_of_file)
asciilifeform: at no point should the answer be a null set
mircea_popescu: sounds about right yeah
BingoBoingo: ty pete_dushenski
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/skype-for-mac-includes-well-lubricated-back-orifice/ << Qntra - Skype For Mac Includes Well Lubricated Back Orifice
mod6: ok so yah. if you only have 'mod6' in your wot, and you leave ~all~ of the sigs (from alf, mp, trinque, bc) in your .seals dir, then we throw an error and die.
mod6: but if you get rid of everyone else's sigs from .seals, then it's fine and you can happily do 'mod6' tree.
asciilifeform: again, i dun see why i should have to remove seals when i variant-wot
asciilifeform: or to remove patches.
mod6: haha. well.
mircea_popescu: well he can run his v any way he pleases ; but yes it should prolly just drop the bad patch and move on
mod6: i suspect that it isn't written that way.
asciilifeform: i must have been the only one who actually used the variants thing, to date
asciilifeform: this has been an interesting exercise, i had nfi that i was the only known user of most of the knobs...
mircea_popescu: eh wouldja simmer down.
asciilifeform: eh i'm not heated up
asciilifeform: but now i gotta try other vtrons! ben_vulpes's , for instance
asciilifeform: i wonder what was omitted there.
mod6: i gather, to implement what is sort of discussed here, will take quite an overhaul
asciilifeform: i'll point out that for so long as we have an agreed upon patch format, and can agree on a sigtron to use, with agreed pubkeys, 'each d00d has own vtron' worx fine
mod6: and not that it shoudn't anyway, there are some things about my implementation that i do not appreciate looking back on it.
asciilifeform: (given that no catastrophic braindamage, e.g. cyclic graph, is permitted)
mod6: i want it to work the way that it is supposed to work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes ; methodological objections are really of those three pillars. like "use ascii" or "the signatures are given TO BE USED" etc.
mod6: which, is my fault for having a somewhat, apparently, limited grasp
asciilifeform: mod6: relax a bit. recall, my original vtron didn't even check hashes post-patch
mircea_popescu: mod6 no, the discussion is actually very productive in that it actually helps specify exactly what v is.
mircea_popescu: such as in "what classes of objections can or can't be brought to a v implementation"
mircea_popescu: that it eschews key checks is one thing ; that it dies on which condition is apparently a different thing.
mod6: this is fair, and i agree. i do want it to work the way it it should work. not the way it does work if those are disjointed. no way to get there, except through these kinds of investigations.
mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
mircea_popescu: whereas if you allow dieing in arbitrary condition, then whatever, you get a more restrictive v than other people.
trinque: as an aside, an environment where "man makes own necessities" out of still simpler tools he can combine as he likes, strikes me as ideal.
trinque wrote an mda yesterday because maildrop and procmail are dogshit.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i dun recall mine doing any verification
ben_vulpes: beyond patches, that is.
ben_vulpes: *signatures* i actually mean to say
mod6: so what you're saying... is that i should be able to say "v press output_press_dir SOME_HEAD mircea_popescu"
mod6: and in the context of trb, I would end up with, currently, just genesis.vpatch pressed out in 'output_press_dir'
mod6: aside from the fact that I might have 69 people in my .wot, and 4000 sigs in my .seals dir.
ben_vulpes: if by "mircea_popescu" you mean "only mircea_popescu's key in .wot"
ben_vulpes: nono, .wot governs.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587787 << it most assuredly does not. git has hidden state.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:52 mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the idea is that you should be able to alter the end product by altering .wot rather than by altering .wot AND .patch or .seal
mod6: so today, with my impl, you'd have to at minimum, get rid of 3999 sigs from .seals. you could also, if you wanted to, get rid of 68 pub keys in your .wot. iirc, that part isn't required tho.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: to be fair, .wot, .seals and patches apparently constitutes 'hidden state' today.
mircea_popescu: mod6 in practice you'd just keep .seals_mp .seals_all .seals_alfmod6 etc and move them around
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in what sense are they hidden??? they are plain text files that YOU PUT THERE
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i don't even want to open that discussion, it's fucking obvious they're equivalent but whatevers.
asciilifeform: directly
asciilifeform: explicitly
mod6: mircea_popescu: aha. ok.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: and .git idem but let's not.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: fuck no
asciilifeform: i have nfi what the crapola in .git does.
asciilifeform: and i certainly did not put it there directly by hand.
mod6: for completeness here is what happens today with my 'v', if you pull people out of .wot, but leave all the sigs in .seals: http://dpaste.com/1HYHBEA.txt
ben_vulpes: imho v should not barf when patch and seal exist but key does not in wot
mod6: not that it's correct, just for example of "where are we at?"
mircea_popescu: barf = death() ?
ben_vulpes: wot is a /filter/ on signature dir.
asciilifeform: mod6: this is correct from one pov ('check patches first') but forbids variant wots.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yes
mod6: fwiw, and this may not be the correct way, but i think i just tried to clone alf's.
asciilifeform: mine did not behave this way.
mod6: ok. see maybe there was something there that I didn't pick up on. :/
ben_vulpes: so long as there is at least one signature for which v can import a corresponding key, that patch should press.
asciilifeform: ^
mircea_popescu: i agree with the notion .wot is supposed to be a filter over .seals
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> so long as there is at least one signature for a patch, for which signature v can import a corresponding key, on the basis of the wot, that patch should press. << ftfy.
asciilifeform: noshit, where else could it get the key
mod6: we are seriously way beyond 'noshit' territory.
mircea_popescu: aite.
mod6: if it were obvious, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.
mod6: im like, mentally retarded. i need things spelled out in explicit, literal forms. :]
mircea_popescu: that's ok, i'm just waiting for phf to say something so i unrate him
ben_vulpes: kek
mod6: so let's back up a minute, cause i'm still trying to figure out what I need to do here...
mod6: so mine, with only 'mod6' in .wot, calls death() when encountering a sig from a person not included in the wot.
mod6: i could almost swear that we had a whole discussion on this before where we wanted it this way??
mod6: however...
mod6: what I should do, is ignore that sig, and continue iterating, collecting up all of the mod6 .sigs and then creating a v-tree from just those alone.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: this way you can do variant-wot presses.
mod6: where's the camera crew?
mod6: am i being punk'd?
mod6: i gotta dig through the logs now.
asciilifeform: wai everyone so tense.
mod6: it's totally fine if that's how we want it.
mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this.
mod6: (former lumps from having this impl before, and then removing it to its current state)
ben_vulpes: i'm pretty sure the design as described above is correct. the way i imagined this working in steady state is for patches and .seals to accumulate all of the patches and signatures thereof a user'd seen over all of history, and then the contents of .wot used to filter the patches and press used to pick a head.
mod6: i am being punk'd
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-21#1349689☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 22:15 mircea_popescu: so /me gives new girl task to press v, half hour ago. other than the url issue above, "hey what sigs should i put in here ?"
ben_vulpes: and yes, this implies an o(n^2) worst case process in (or (map 'boolean (lambda (sig) (verify 'some_patch.vpatch' sig)))
ben_vulpes: mod6: nobody is trolling
mod6: read the link! that's exactly what it does right now, this very minute.
ben_vulpes: no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine.
ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587799 << this excusing us because we're the right team is ridiculous by now.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:58 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587787 << it most assuredly does not. git has hidden state.
asciilifeform: wat
ben_vulpes: trinque: augh no please no
asciilifeform: trinque been drinkin' or wat
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CBE0788A94B99B46A2AC2D42BBE157E14FCD5E21FB4C6B42AC319B2A978D89E3 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2486...1113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US MO)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E03B4EF8E133B56D2A25926C00E369EE3792631DC988331D73F46F8DA9570C04 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1579...5447 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ID JK)
trinque: if V does not "verify sigs of >1 important people ~to me~ at each step of doing anything" where exactly does it diverge from git
ben_vulpes: phf: can i get http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-November/000241.html in the experimental patchset in your viewer?
phf: se
trinque: less messy code is not enough
phf: also http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF099-Grammar_Wizard.gif
ben_vulpes: phf: ty
trinque: and what, I have to be drinking to see this? spent pages criticizing the horrible, accidental evolution of cat.
ben_vulpes: phf: elaborate on pbf link?
trinque: but we can "just wante to press" because god's children
asciilifeform: trinque: my original, unpublished vtron, only pressed (tracking the dependency flow), and user was expected to check the pgp sigs of the inputs, with bare hands, prior
asciilifeform: then i decided that it could be useful to glue these ops together, so that variant-wot operation is possible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu immediately realized what can be done with this knob and wrote, iirc , entire article re same
asciilifeform: ( recall, we had been trb-ing with exclusively signed patches since start of trb, but folx other than asciilifeform were having headache determining the correct order to apply in )
phf: ben_vulpes: this was a general comment, but the cost of failure is so high, simple things have become needlessly complicated.
trinque: internal consistency is not a huge ask.
asciilifeform: phf: this is not wholly avoidable, imho, folx laugh at airplane chairs or surgical scalpels costing thousands of usd, but in some sense it is inevitable
asciilifeform: the cost of failure - gets amortized.
asciilifeform: and much better for it to be amortized in expensive chairs, than in total lack of risk-taking
ben_vulpes: that there are 3 implementations of v is an indicator of healthy amounts of risk taking.
asciilifeform: aha
trinque: this squirming away from "why does the output not match the pages of ideology" is troubling.
asciilifeform: i was addressing mod6's 'damn, why did i even try' lament
asciilifeform: trinque: are you thinking of mod6's minor bug , or of some other
asciilifeform: ( the bug, as mircea_popescu iirc also pointed out, was in the direction of making his vtron ~stricter~, of forbidding entirely legit ops, so not catastrophic)
ben_vulpes: trinque: i don't follow either
mod6: im <+ben_vulpes> just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right. << maybe.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine. << this i dont agree with -- from a technical perspective. it looks to me that girl had "ascii and mod6" in .wot, and when it came across Mr. P.'s genesis .sig, it honked.
mod6: now, we not want that behviour any longer.
mod6: but i'm trying to get down to brass tacks as much as possible.
ben_vulpes: these are separate issues
mod6: i'm happy to re-write/overhaul/whatever this thing.
ben_vulpes: 1) pressing vpatches absent signatures matching keys in .wot
mod6: just wanna make sure we all understand what we want.
ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
ben_vulpes: 1) is incorrect imho and 2) also incorrect imho
ben_vulpes: could be argued out of 2)
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes had a quite complete exposition on my original vtron
asciilifeform: iirc he a) fully understood how it behaves b) tendered no major objections
ben_vulpes: which i wrote before putting down a single line of code.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: did your v exit when finding signatures without matching keys? i do not recall.
mod6: i posit that it did indeed.
mod6: infact, i stole that error message.
asciilifeform: guess what, looks like the published version -- indeed did.
asciilifeform: i ended up turning that into a warning, vs fatal, but it looks like i never posted this variant.
ben_vulpes: then wot-variant presses were never possible with the originally released v?
asciilifeform: apparently not!!
ben_vulpes: then i object to it now.
asciilifeform: so mod6 isn't hallucinating, he simply blindly copied my buggy original.
mod6: let's fight about it.
ben_vulpes: and argument ad that's how it was done does not carry
mod6: lol
trinque: my objects can be better stated as an irritation that the political considerations here do not seem to be driving the conversation.
trinque: ben_vulpes: right
trinque: *objections
asciilifeform: trinque: expand
trinque: V as conceived as a political weapon against the shitsucking github fuck does not work without the attribution the signatures provide
asciilifeform: this is quite true
trinque: my digestion of the notion of opposable signatures produces this output.
phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.
asciilifeform: nobody proposed, iirc, to begin to publish unsigned turds, or to accept same off the net and press, etc
asciilifeform: phf: fwiw i signed mine on release
trinque: but there is a place to do so, where there could be separation between the lab and the published-in-journal
ben_vulpes: phf: asciilifeform signed his, iirc i signed mine
mod6: mine is signed 69 times for sure.
trinque: I have released several pieces of homegrown signed code
ben_vulpes: with 'not battlefield ready' all over it, but nevertheless.
phf: none of them are genesis + vpatch revisions.
asciilifeform: phf: iirc mod6 made one
trinque: and fwiw phf I merely said "do not come to me asking about phf", recently. I did not say further.
ben_vulpes: phf: now tell me if that's sloth or fear
phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"
mod6: creating a genesis is a different thing too; v create a genesis of v. which i did work out, but alas, as you are eluding to, i never published because was nervous that it hadn't been very well audited yet.
phf: ^
asciilifeform: cost of failure, sometimes you simply live with. i signed FUCKGOATS, and it is a 'sapper makes 1 mistake' item, it is not possible to repair the units if i had made a mistake.
mod6: and who knows, imho, there's no gigantic rush to make a genesis for v. especially when we're still trying to work out how it should work.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-24#1383818 << i believe some are laboring under the impression that eggog == hole☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-01-24 03:21 mircea_popescu: to put it in you'll have to sign it. if it turns out later to have a hole, people will negrate you.
trinque: real quick what the hell is eggog
ben_vulpes: russification of 'error'
ben_vulpes: r sounds like g to them or something
asciilifeform: trinque: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg/400px-Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg << them
asciilifeform: sound had 0 to do with it
asciilifeform: it was orcs blindly copying human tech
ben_vulpes: scuse me
phf: ben_vulpes: see i'm not even sure which one of you is kidding. ~possibly~ neither :D
ben_vulpes: phf: i'm just wrong
ben_vulpes: completely misremembering ru alphabet lessons, apparently.
trinque now meta-eggog'd
phf: ben_vulpes: well, actually "r" pronounced as "g" is an infamous yiddish lisp
ben_vulpes: we digress
mod6: anyway, yes.
mod6: i do want that traceibility from V, of my V.
mod6: And I'm happy to embark on a genesis once we resolve these current problems and the testing and review by lords is complete.
ben_vulpes: i hold that exiting on discovery of a seal with no corresponding key in .wot puts an unnecessary burden on the operator to maintain system state.
mod6: i like the idea that you've got 'mod6 & ben_vulpes' in your .wot, and that you hvae 69,000 sigs in your .seals dir, and only select out the ones that match the .wot.
mod6: that seems fine, and yes, less painful to me.
phf: ben_vulpes: well, the point of V that has been celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog. you say something, i make a response, etc. this thread was literally about three different versions, one of them is stale, one of them is unreleased. there's not really an easy way to point to the line and say "oh this is what this does" etc. i claim that the source of this problem is fear. the genesis has to be perfect for all
phf: eternity, or else!1
asciilifeform: there is a 'harem-v' and a 'forum-v'
asciilifeform: i dun recall anyone, any time recently, disputing the functionality of the latter
asciilifeform: all of the 'bickening' seems to concern 'harem-v'
mod6: phf: naw. even mircea_popescu has encouraged me to release it, even if it has warts.
asciilifeform: i.e. the mechanism whereby you press a set for own consumption
mod6: im just trying to minimize the warts a bit.
trinque: ben_vulpes: what does the thing do if not exit?
trinque: presses the thing sealed because ambiguous somebody signed?
ben_vulpes: yes.
phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate
ben_vulpes: trinque: all three implementations show which keys signed which patches in flow output.
asciilifeform: all 3 implementation were also (correctly) 'fail-deadly'
trinque: how is this effective use of crypto at all?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'press if no signature is found'?
ben_vulpes: i do not believe that mine did that.
asciilifeform: that is, i know of no case where an unsealed, or invalidly sealed, or sealed by nonexistent pubkey, patch, would be pressed without the user having explicitly flipped the red cover and disabled the reactor coolant pump
ben_vulpes: we just saw that in v.pl, did we not?
ben_vulpes: instigated the whole brouhaha
asciilifeform goes and rereads mod6's thread
trinque: ben_vulpes: what keys, you said you don't have them anywhere
ben_vulpes: trinque: if all vpatches from genesis to HEAD carry a signature corresponding to a key in .wot, v presses. that signatures exist in .seals for people i don't choose to put the key for into .wot should not matter.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: right you are. his - did
ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)
ben_vulpes: error, really. making a null set joke.
phf: ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/patches/mod6_privkey_tools
phf: ^ a regrind of http://btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools ?
mod6: with some minor tweaks
ben_vulpes: phf: thank you
phf: ah, yeah i see. ok i'll keep funken one in experimental too, and move it to deprecated eventually
trinque: if I am truthfully the only one present that sees parts of the hard definition of this thing falling off all the time I'll leave it there.
ben_vulpes: mod6: aha, privkey_tools descends from the low_s and testnet patches
trinque: but I cannot see *why* they should other than "I just want to"
ben_vulpes: trinque: please say what hard definitions are lost.
asciilifeform: trinque: if you'd like to take a stab at a formal definition, i promise to read
trinque: were they not in the logs?
asciilifeform: formal definitions don't live in the logs
asciilifeform: gotta write actual article trinque
ben_vulpes: trinque: best i saw was that you want more than one seal and i'm content with one
trinque: I see other folks here discussing in logs.
asciilifeform: when we discuss in the logs, it can be many things, but not formal definition.
phf: ( http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=experimental&search=_tools )
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587898 << this destroys the ~who~ of each seal, which matters☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:40 ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
trinque: you do not trust the seal; you trust the identity
trinque: otherwise yes, asciilifeform is right that if this doesn't matter, just have a thing that presses patches with hashes in the m
ben_vulpes: one can have either "die on discovery of seal for which wot lacks key" or "wot variant press"
trinque: but first the definition
trinque: does it matter or not who signed?
ben_vulpes: of course it does, that's what .wot is for.
ben_vulpes: i reserve the right to hold onto gavins patches and never press them by use of .wot.
trinque: why is V for your private perversions? lel
ben_vulpes: i get the impression i disastrously fail to understand your point, trinque .
ben_vulpes: i will motherfucking *not* shuffle both patches/* and .wot/* around when i want to press. this is stupid and carves off a whole space of adjacent possible.
trinque: the thing is a political tool, and either does or does not acheive its desired effects
ben_vulpes: what purposes are these
trinque: that is not what I said
trinque: it aims to cause you to do certain things
ben_vulpes: these things?
ben_vulpes: lol "it's purpose is to cause"
trinque: attribute changes to the definitions of words with your ass
ben_vulpes: that did not parse over here
trinque: one can say the purpose of the bomb was to explode over there but that's ridiculously backwards
trinque: I put it there and chemical reactions happened and so on.
trinque: V is a harsh constraint upon the programmer that says that his acts will be unavoidably attributable to him, and those that vouched for him.
trinque: "push this button to make it stop hurting" has no place in the tool
trinque: make another tool
ben_vulpes: let's rewind: what does trinque miss when v finds a seal for a vpatch for which it doesn't find a key and proceeds merrily, provided it does find *a* seal for the patch that corresponds to a key in .wot?
trinque: what
trinque: are you saying lean on the gpg keyring then?
trinque: otherwise I could swear that was the same thing twice
asciilifeform: in all extant vtrons, gpg keyring is nulled at boot
asciilifeform: (it gets a temp dir jail)
trinque: yes, so, how do I parse that statement.
asciilifeform: trinque: a patch, so long as there exists 1 seal for it, and that seal corresponds to a key in your active wot -- is valid.
asciilifeform: and pressable.
ben_vulpes: ^^
trinque: oh christ
trinque: yes
mod6: i think, he's saying, what is the benefit of V honking when it doesn't find a key in your wot that matches a seal in your seal dir, provided that you don't pull a mod6.
asciilifeform: a seal, on the other hand, floating about without an active pubkey, for for that matter without a corresponding patch, is inert.
ben_vulpes: ^^
trinque: we had just discussed pressing things with no sig
trinque: and I was all hot and bothered
trinque: thank you for your patience gentlemen
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587898☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:40 ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
ben_vulpes: anytime trinque
asciilifeform: trinque: there were 2 separate cases where this happened. mod6's buggy vtron (which he fixed today), and mine when the self-appendectomy-time-turn-off-pain-receptor switch flipped.
ben_vulpes: i'm changing diapers over here, it's a wonder that even asciilifeform can make sense of what i'm saying.
mod6: i proposed a fix for mine. i think it was ultimiately rejected.
mod6: it sounds like everyone wants instead, a general overhaul to get to the 'wot variant press' instead, which would also fix the bug, because these vpatches, without a corresponding seal, would simply be ignored.
mod6: i apologize for this oversight about the WILD patches.
ben_vulpes: provided the implementation fails if any patch in the flow has *no* signatures from keys in .wot, that sounds right.
ben_vulpes: (and in the absence of a WILD boolean, asciilifeform's pain-receptor-switch)
mod6: i thought you didn't want it to fail.
mod6: i thought that you just wanted to it to be left out of any possible flow.
asciilifeform: mod6: 'leave out of all possible flow' is the correct answer.
ben_vulpes: i think this is 'implementation detail'.
ben_vulpes: well, hang on. if patches with no sigs are omitted from flow, they won't show up as WILD in the flow, correct?
ben_vulpes: they should still appear in the flow but marked as wild.
mod6: no
mod6: they will never, ever show up.
mod6: you will, you must, have everything signed for it to show up in a pressable flow.
ben_vulpes: pressable being operative word there.
ben_vulpes: "flow" refers to the antecedent chain, nothing else.
mod6: this is why they exist in the first place, these WILD vpatches, because my impl wasn't written with this in mind. i was more written with the idea that a guy would place things in .wot/.seals/patches by hand and would know what is what.
mod6: but i apologize, and see that this is the wrong way. and there is a better way.
ben_vulpes: the antecedent chain can be constructed without ever needing to refer to the signing of patches, and imho should show all patches in the flow, alongside which keys signed them and if none then marked as wild
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> pressable being operative word there. << it is inconsequencial.
ben_vulpes: as asciilifeform's original and mine did.
mod6: if you were to print the flow, it would still not show up.
mod6: the printable flow, is the same as the pressable flow.
mod6: and this would be predicated upon who is in your .wot.
ben_vulpes: flow is simply the directed acyclic graph of patches, and is *not* predicated on wot contents.
asciilifeform: the only time a vtron must hard-fail, is when it is impossible for it to operate in finite time, i.e. the case where it detects a graph cycle.
ben_vulpes: wot filters what may be pressed.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> flow is simply the directed acyclic graph of patches, and is *not* predicated on wot contents. << disagree.
mod6: it is completely dependant on this.
ben_vulpes: why?
asciilifeform: variant wot can alter flow, but only by disrupting it
asciilifeform: (say a necessary link in a chain is torn out because you nixed a wot key)
mod6: because why would i want gavin's vpatch stuck in the middle of my flow, if he's not in my wot?
mod6: pressable or printable, doesn't matter. the wot is the dictator.
ben_vulpes: fact remains that the dag can be constructed without reference to the wot.
mod6: it *can*, but shouldn't be.
ben_vulpes: that we print it as a list is an unfortunate accident.
asciilifeform: i am failing to discern what, if anything, is in dispute here, so i will bbl. possibly it will be more evident from the log.
mod6: ben_vulpes: i actually love that feature.
ben_vulpes: mod6: may construct his flow and press list in his v impl however he wants
mod6: lol, anyway.
ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.
ben_vulpes: and this can only be done by calculating the dag and then indicating who signed which patches.
mod6: i mean, we could do it that way... where the printable flow tells you which do not have sigs, but then impl-wise, they must be two different lists as to not inadvertantly press out a WILD vpatch. that, or re-check the flow at press time.
mod6: im tired.
mod6: *sigh*
mod6: bbl
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CBE0788A94B99B46A2AC2D42BBE157E14FCD5E21FB4C6B42AC319B2A978D89E3 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1458...4139 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US MO)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1D77F4C7868849BC95ADA7245FCF237AE9E3EB0EE252A3D64977CA928A368836 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1267...4229 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5810DDB9F5DF64147C3432C7E02C87609AA60835BCB64D78955C8A97F912C0F4 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1267...4229 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E03B4EF8E133B56D2A25926C00E369EE3792631DC988331D73F46F8DA9570C04 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1471...7653 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ID JK)
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 846.47, vol: 10974.12183947 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 829.796, vol: 8476.20638 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 841.0, vol: 16145.49930604 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 860.913408, vol: 4900738.35200000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 843.411, vol: 2235.76989277 | Volume-weighted last average: 860.754879403
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 5977.89, vol: 4959248.93950000 | Volume-weighted last average: 5977.89
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/coinbase-login-woes-rumored-as-price-reported-by-fiatbitcoin-interfaces-moves/ << Qntra - Coinbase Login Woes Rumored As Price Reported By fiat/Bitcoin Interfaces Moves
mircea_popescu: !!gettrust phf
deedbot: L1: 4, L2: 16 by 10 connections.
mircea_popescu: !!rated phf
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated phf 4 at 2016/05/17 03:19:21 << his lordship the lord chancellor
mircea_popescu: :D
mircea_popescu: !!up Guest36448
deedbot: Guest36448 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587847 << fish out the links, should be informative.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:15 mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i don't get what http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587851 is saying ? it links to a congratulatory message back in 2015 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:20 mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-21#1349689
mircea_popescu: i was saying "this is working correctly", did it end up reading the opposite ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587857 << he has it exactly, it passed as a "minor problem, whatevs."☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:22 ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587892 << fwiw first girl (there quoted) put my sig in the dir ; but for subsequent passes the item was rewritten to skip unwotted sigs rather than die.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:39 mod6: now, we not want that behviour any longer.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587887 << he's thinking of your "wild" pressings. "unprincipled" being a much better word.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:35 asciilifeform: trinque: are you thinking of mod6's minor bug , or of some other
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587908 << heh! i think a lot of "well everyone knows this" is going on wrt v ; owing to its deliberately-variant, homebrew nature.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:44 asciilifeform: i ended up turning that into a warning, vs fatal, but it looks like i never posted this variant.
mircea_popescu: more or less loud recalibrations as practice crystallizes to be expected in such circumstance.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587923 << i am fwiw satisfied that it's qutie mroe than this : vs aren't on btcbase because they don't fundamentally belong on btcbase, because unlike public trb "we all use this" they're private "my girl will dance the way ~i~ want her to dance and stfu". there's a much more limited set of rules re what vtrons should do ; than re what trbs should do.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:47 phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.
mircea_popescu: i perceive no benefit to, eg, getting everyone to use mod6's or alf's or anyone else's v implementation, as opposed to the present situation ; just as i perceive no advantage to getting everyone to make "his own" trb.
mircea_popescu: this opposition may be less categorical than it seems here, and may evolve in time, but i suspect even if a continuous function it'll never be convex.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/us-steel-refocuses-in-anticipation-of-great-again/ << Qntra - US Steel Refocuses In Anticipation Of Great Again
BingoBoingo: ^ Chuckle fodder
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587963 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:58 asciilifeform: there is a 'harem-v' and a 'forum-v'
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's possible that as technology matures it goes from this stage to "yawn, whatever, just use the cannonical version". so there's possibly that path there.
mircea_popescu: and on the other hand, i suppose it's entirely possible that if a years-made-wiser satoshi tried to release bitcoin, it'd have been done in the manner of how we did vtrons not in the manner of how he did bitcoin, ie, "here's what should happen - anyone who wants to participate make one"
mircea_popescu: so there's no real strong categorical difference from theory. but in practice it sure as fuck exists.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin'd certainly be infinitely stronger were it the result of a concurrent development effort in this style.
asciilifeform: fwiw i deliberately did not polish my vtron, wajted to give folx a turn in the sun
asciilifeform: *wanted
mircea_popescu: (not that this consideration has much practical value - outside of #trilema the community to do such thing doesn't exist, and so wasn't at the time an option)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's absolutely no way in hell anything in the us can compete with mittal.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course it can't compete, but it can Pretend!
mircea_popescu: Preeet End!
mircea_popescu: it's funny, you know, after ~2500 years, steel went back home to pradesh
BingoBoingo: Seriously. Anyways the Granite City and Gary Mill are as described, opened enough to get machines warm.
BingoBoingo: Anything beyond waits for Trumpreich's credit card
BingoBoingo: But yes, steel seems to want to be made in India
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587944 << this symbol Г is G (or perhaps V) in russian ; but also used for rendering r on one of those early displays. so "Error" looked to teh russian like for some reason it says eggog.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:52 ben_vulpes: r sounds like g to them or something
mircea_popescu: which is irresistibly funny somehow so it survived.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: dunno if you heard but praxair and linde are merging
BingoBoingo: Oh, ty
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587945 << ah there it is. so alf, of course my head read "kleptronica" for some reason.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:52 asciilifeform: trinque: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg/400px-Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg << them
ben_vulpes: also nfi how this fits into your agricultural fanfic
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dun worry about it, he'll find a way.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yeah i figured, it's why he has it now
mircea_popescu: transgenic BingoBoingoian agrofanfiction ftw.
ben_vulpes: biz-commentary-cum-agricultural-fanfiction is my favorite new genre of 2016
BingoBoingo: locally Praxair is known for exploding (literally) in the 1990s
ben_vulpes: hyu
BingoBoingo: http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2015/06/25/10-years-ago-praxair-explosion-in-lafayette-square/
BingoBoingo: Anyways its not fanfic if its true
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587935 << upon review of mine, it simply sucked horrendously and i suspect that i knew at some level at the time.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:49 phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"
BingoBoingo: Seriously, no one wants fucking bentgrass outside of a putting green
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-20#1586531 << i don't recall the proposed tests, actually. i mulled on this for a bit, am reluctant to try any sort of implementation until i finish the sqlator which a) is probably just sunk cost fallacy rearing its head, as i've done not much there but design the schema and prep a massive ingest job and b) has now been bumped down my todo list *again* in favor of vtronic☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 13:18 mircea_popescu: btw mod6 ben_vulpes trinque re the whole db/fs etc discussion, anyone recall the symlinks method / proposed tests ?
ben_vulpes: bloodsports
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587954 << dirges!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:54 ben_vulpes: we digress
BingoBoingo: Eggog dirges are the sound of the season.
ben_vulpes: chiptune christmas, if you want to give any olds a migrane
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the bright idea was http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-13#1481832 and the test needed is to check wtf happens if you symlink the txn to the block tree☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:48 mircea_popescu: and there's symlinks if anyone wants to alias.
mircea_popescu: you'd end up with (as proposed there) a directory tree like 20 layers deep, with thousands of symlinks in each.
mircea_popescu: this way you don't actually have to ~index~ anything, if you wish to see where txn 1234567890 was included in a block, you go to /12/34/56/7890 which points to block x
ben_vulpes: sure yeah, i remember the design pretty well
mircea_popescu: ok so a) gotta see if ext2 / ext4 CAN EVEN HOLD this many symlinks. like, at all.
mircea_popescu: and b) wtf happens once you load a drive with this nuttery.
mircea_popescu: afaik this is entirely unwalked ground, for all the foss bs about million eyes.
ben_vulpes: million flies, maybe. infinite symlinks, guaranteed not.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
ben_vulpes: knowing nothing about fsen, i doubt even reiser can handle infinite symlinks.
mircea_popescu: why ?
ben_vulpes: because every open source anything i've ever touched has failed in precisely these sorts of extreme use cases
ben_vulpes: a rough heuristic, granted
mircea_popescu: more importantly, why is this not ~exactly~ like saying "doh, of course you can't fill a drive with text files". dude what.
ben_vulpes: fill, sure. but an /infinite number/ thereof?
mircea_popescu: well infinite here means "to fill the disk".
mircea_popescu: obv you can't store infinite data in finite hard drive, i came to terms with that
mircea_popescu: (after some early experimentation, i confess)
ben_vulpes: lol yes, most boys
mircea_popescu: aaaanyway. mimi's in a fine position to try this out, attach old drive, write script to spit them out as per schema, see what occurs.
mircea_popescu: profile seek times, whatevs reasonable testage once the artefact's prepared.
ben_vulpes: surely a symlink wouldn't eat more than a few bytes now would it
ben_vulpes: few hundred?
mircea_popescu: in theory the above should be uberefficient sqling of a blockchain
ben_vulpes: that is a very liberal use of the acronym
mircea_popescu: in practice i'm in two waters about it, wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing catches fire.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why ?
mircea_popescu: union is implemented via cat and ls!!!1
ben_vulpes: there *is* an ansi standard for sql
mircea_popescu: which part am i breaking ?
ben_vulpes: dude cat and ls are not relational algebra
ben_vulpes: quit fuckin with my head
mircea_popescu: says who
ben_vulpes: they're barely-compiling c tools in unix land
mircea_popescu holds awk in reserve just in case.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i'm going to need that gas mask
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes oh im sorry, and your sql is written in what, malbolge ? my my aren't we speshul.
ben_vulpes: it's a very special haskellian snowflake that makes it so i don't have to think about that so nyah
mircea_popescu: barely-compiling c isn't good enough for us. oh, no, mommy i need my special asm skirt for THIS sql stuff!
ben_vulpes: someone else entertain the man
BingoBoingo: Don't forget the dirty Pascal panties!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587972 << it's altogether unclear where did you get this "celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog" ; got a link or something ? seems more the case what was celebrated was its ability to put a wrench through imperial-style "scientific dialog" where "we dindu nuttin wrong".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:59 phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/praxair-buying-linde-renaming-self-linde-in-industrial-gas-consolidation/ << Qntra - Praxair Buying Linde, Renaming Self Linde In Industrial Gas Consolidation
BingoBoingo: ^ For herr vulpes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587985 << lol holy shit sherlock. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1583928 with bells and whistles. how about it simply fails to start if .wot is empty.☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:04 ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:09 mircea_popescu: but i can see why this is practically obnoxious.
ben_vulpes: 'twas a joke
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588010 << i can't grok what the dispute is here.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:12 trinque: does it matter or not who signed?
ben_vulpes: it gets resolved
mircea_popescu: a ok
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588053 << sounds right yeah.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:28 mod6: it sounds like everyone wants instead, a general overhaul to get to the 'wot variant press' instead, which would also fix the bug, because these vpatches, without a corresponding seal, would simply be ignored.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588065 << yes.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:32 mod6: you will, you must, have everything signed for it to show up in a pressable flow.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588074 << also yes.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:34 mod6: the printable flow, is the same as the pressable flow.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588093 << why the fuck. if they're lacking sigs they're not even patches.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:38 ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.
mircea_popescu: should it also show you the contents of your catpics folder, in case maybe you wanted to do some clicking ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588097 << dun sweat it mod6 ! tomorrow is another friday!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:41 mod6: *sigh*
ben_vulpes: i expect it to be a royal pain to run down "which patch is missing sigs and breaking the flow from genesis to whatever"
ben_vulpes: without a flow that renders all patches. but fine
mircea_popescu: but how do you get there in the first place.
mircea_popescu: "i ended up with a woman in my bed i don't know." "how ?"
ben_vulpes: that'd be why it's fine
mircea_popescu: mk.
ben_vulpes: no pressing drunk
mircea_popescu: moreover if you say press kimkardassian and it says "failed - parishilton not found" then it is somewhat likely you forgot to sign blondy.
ben_vulpes: a few minutes of thinking while working on something related did clear this up for ben_vulpes
jurov: mircea_popescu: ext4 has 256Binodes, and "The target of a symbolic link will be stored in inode if the target string is less than 60 bytes long."
jurov: not sure how to shovel tx/block id into 60 bytes
jurov: *shoehorn
jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
jurov: and to give my 2c also on sql, while it's possible to use some portable standardized ansi sql subset, essential stuff like prepared queries need a database driver
jurov: to introduce it into trb would, in my understanding, would make folks apoplectic
ben_vulpes: dun worry, no such is on the table
jurov: k
ben_vulpes: jurov: sql just falls out of "i shall make tmsr a block explorer", no more, no less.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo, pete_dushenski: in re graphite, "meaningfully stand behind their Q" perhaps?
ben_vulpes: mod6, asciilifeform, trinque, phf, mircea_popescu, and anyone else tracking vtronic gnashing: i dusted off and rewrote my cl V implementation. i'll follow up sometime tomorrow with more demo usage, and a more robust demonstration of wot-variant pressing. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/juTpM/?raw=true
ben_vulpes: from 340 lines down to 224.
ben_vulpes: and yes, phf, when i am not exhausted i will also produce a genesis.
shinohai: neato ben_vulpes (on the lisp V)
shinohai reads the giant logz
davout: ben_vulpes: what's the sqlator?
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Uoyyb/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
trinque: ben_vulpes: wooo! I'll test that soon as I have coffee in hand.
shinohai passes trinque some coffee [~]D
trinque: cheers
mircea_popescu: "¿Sabes algo sobre Bitcoin?" "Se que es una especie de almacenamiento de dinero virtual , que por un dólar te dan 2 o 3 bitcoins o algo así , que básicamente se usa para comprar online y conseguir descuentos creo"
mircea_popescu: sounds about right.
shinohai: "descuentos" lel
mircea_popescu: jurov in principle the address of a block is something like /44/4600 for the latest, so 2char dir + 4 char name
mircea_popescu: unless you want to store them by hash, in which case of course it's at most 65 chars, though because of difficulty i expect it should be made 40 or less
mircea_popescu: intuitively though i think blocks should be stored by height.
mircea_popescu: (this scheme guarantees you have at most 9999 files + 99 directories in any directory, which should hold even on windows.)
mircea_popescu: (while the store-by-hash txn scheme promises at most 256 directories OR 65536 files however in practice finding 65536 contiguous hash txn seems rather unlikely for a while yet)
mircea_popescu: shinohai chick's from like 2009, what do you want. she gets 2 or 3 btc for teh dollar.
mircea_popescu: no but srsly, people think this. as per http://trilema.com/2014/la-florida-and-other-places/ ; the whole unwashed orc hordes of the third world actually believe there's something to usgistan.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588254 << can this be rewritten ? not that we're liable to have over 4bn txn at any point, but more of the principle of the thing "fuck you and your fucking magic numbers. if i run 64bit processors i'll run 64bit disks also motherfuckers!"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:32 jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588255 << eh, prepared queries next year. as it stands you can't even do a select properly.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:35 jurov: and to give my 2c also on sql, while it's possible to use some portable standardized ansi sql subset, essential stuff like prepared queries need a database driver
mircea_popescu: (for the record, in practice the utility of prepared statements is often nil, and can be mostly captured through saying eg insert in x values y, values z rather than insert in x values y, insert in x values z. literally the whole benefit is that it compiles the part prior to values just once.
mircea_popescu: whatever, i guess you also get some injection protection. hurr.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588254 << reiser doesn't use inodes, but iirc also limited to (2^32)-1 ~files~☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:32 jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
asciilifeform: so it'd appear that there is no suitable fs in common use.
trinque: the xfs limit is iirc defined as "how much disk space do you want to use for them"
trinque: http://xfs.org/index.php/XFS_FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_inode64_mount_option_for.3F
asciilifeform: afaik there is ~no~ fs that gives 'as many of ANYTHING as disk will hold'
asciilifeform: fortranism reigns.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://archive.is/cLhiv << chinese gox
trinque: that was not the claim at all; read the link
mircea_popescu: trinque ah, you can recompile with flag and it makes them 64 ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: looks like just a mount flag in fstab
mircea_popescu reads
shinohai has a Qntra on Chinese Gox when BingoBoingo awakens
mircea_popescu: impressive. alrighty then
trinque: definitely merits an experiment
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: trinque: pretty interesting
asciilifeform: i have some dark rumble in my gut associated with xfs, possibly from mid-2000s
mircea_popescu is kinda rooting for ext2/3
mircea_popescu: ext2/4*
asciilifeform: iirc it was at one point considered catastrophically unusable unless you had a disk controller with battery
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like you would need a nonstandard/modified-for-extra-bitness ext2/3
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: (at which point it may as well be a single-purpose 'bitcoinfs')
mircea_popescu: hey, if xfs works all teh better.
mircea_popescu: also the issue of performance discussed by dave chinner is worthy of consideration (in trinque 's link)
asciilifeform: btw the blocks themselves really would like to live on own disk
asciilifeform: 1MB per
asciilifeform: linearly.
asciilifeform: no partition table or anything.
mircea_popescu: myeah
asciilifeform: then O(1) !!11
mircea_popescu: yes but that's a later phase of this.
asciilifeform: it's trivial to implement though.
asciilifeform: unlike the db switch
mircea_popescu: one thing at a time!
trinque: asciilifeform: https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/software/general-linux-open-source/35664-xfs-in-linux-3-10-to-put-on-extra-protection << it grew up a bit recently
asciilifeform: neato
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, it'd seem iris fs took over the disks meanwhile, who knew.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: Emin is pushing SGX like solutions. Seems everyone is infected with security theatre these days.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i have sincerely nfi what is emin or what is an sgx
asciilifeform: do i even want to know
thestringpuller: depends on how much dope you've smoked today
asciilifeform: 0
mircea_popescu: no soldering yet ?
thestringpuller: may cause stroke
thestringpuller: http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/12/22/scaling-bitcoin-with-secure-hardware/
asciilifeform: ah that
asciilifeform: snoar.
asciilifeform: 'next, bestest ethertardium, now seeek000red with fritz chip'
asciilifeform: iirc this is what they moved mike hearn to
trinque: Teechan is similar in design to the Lightning Network, save for one crucial differentiating factor: it leverages trusted execution environments (TEEs), that is, secure hardware components found in recent commodity processors such as the latest batch of Intel CPUs with Software Guard Extensions (SGX). << why the fuck even bother talking about this
thestringpuller: because whitewashing security is the only way to make people have trust these days?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: 'people'
mircea_popescu: lol this is like cinderella on monkey island already ; they keep bringing her all sorts of offerings. "boogers ?" "how about some feces ?" "dried feces from yesterday ?" "how about this corn kernel" "ok how about dead molluscs"
mircea_popescu: and in other argentine wtf, /me felt like putting some of the grandiose coffee available here to good use as coffee liqueur. sent girl to farmacy, where she bought 1 liter bottle of pure ethylic alcohol (98%). for like 6 bux. it's fabulous, tastes mildly of corn.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/D6w9h/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/5nHJ9/?raw=true
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: worx
asciilifeform: and no rush.
asciilifeform: in other vintage lulz, https://tonyarcieri.com/volapuk-a-cautionary-tale-for-any-language-community << esperantists had their own python3, apparently.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tbh, the reason a "constructed language" is readily forgotten is precisely the fact that it was constructed.
mircea_popescu: it's not a ~real~ language, but a very pathetic ersatz.
asciilifeform: idea was, iirc, to make more compact thing, without 'hair' and irregular cases etc
mircea_popescu: this is a stupid idea, not unlike "to make more compact human, without apendix, tonsils etc"
asciilifeform: or airplane without feathers
asciilifeform: auto -- without hooves.
mircea_popescu: the ignorance of random john smiths with "progressive" delusions of self importance is scarcely a basis for existence.
asciilifeform: that there lived no one remotely qualified to touch the problem, does not make it a nonproblem
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a language is not a car nor an aeroplane. also engineers are not nearly as important ; or powerful as they like to pretend.
mircea_popescu: this can be trivially verified at any party of models/sluts where we invite a few engineers.
asciilifeform: the limits of the power of engineer were being explored in those days.
mircea_popescu: aha. and the results - informative.
mircea_popescu: sutor ne ultra grease bucket.
asciilifeform: (notice, few modern folx would presume to try.)
asciilifeform: i still wonder about the supposed 4 mil or how many esperantists, who taught their children, etc. was it disinfo ? and if not, where did they go ?
asciilifeform: i'll point out that there is also an 'if it prospers, none dare call it treason' effect going on. modern hebrew, for instance, is nearly as much a conlang as esperanto.
asciilifeform: ditto what the ukrs speak on orc tv (~none of the public heads speak anything but ru at home)
phf: газова горилка
asciilifeform: lel aha
mircea_popescu: anyway. an airplane is very strictly not a bird without feathers ; there's no relation to a bird whatsoever, an airplane is a sort of bus not a sort of bird.
mircea_popescu: and engineered languages are exactly an island of dr moreau, a place that a) can't exist and b) whose only conceptual function is to show how fucking unbearably tedious old women are.
asciilifeform: catholic latin was every bit the engineered.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea why the postmenopausal worldview is even tolerated by actual engineers ; if i thought myself one i'd actually spend half my time having people a la "we'll make a language" whipped at the public stake
mircea_popescu: much like serious theologians in the 1000s did to idiot shamans.
phf: asciilifeform: so was Sanskrit, but at that point the line of "engineered" becomes very blured
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the "taught their children" : engineer-parents are no fucking better than engineers generally. and again the dr moreau reference rules supreme.
mircea_popescu: bear in mind that at the height of jewish idiocy (well, 2nd height, after being stupid in the 30s) manifested as israel socialism, uppity bitches pretended to "teach" their daughters to be naked in public because "no shame" because hey, old woman engineer thinks herself powerful enough to repress the male gaze.
mircea_popescu: the result was that 3rd generation girls reverted naturally to the coy behaviour, and the whole thing is today forgotten to the point you don't know about it
asciilifeform: not forgotten, it is lulled at in every work re kibbutzim
mircea_popescu: nor do the average old women who put forth their usual menopausal engineering pretense within my earshot and get treated to a large helping of stfu and make sandwiches.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok so then if you know, what are you on aboot!
asciilifeform: the kibbutz was a bonsaikitten and deservedly vanished. but their conlang! worked!111
mircea_popescu: eh, hiding behind that to salvage your pretense to engineering power is exactly how and why engineer kids are always the ones who don't see any cunt at slut parties.
mircea_popescu: some parts were conlang and some parts worked etc.
asciilifeform: i hate to distract mircea_popescu from a good gloat re the impotence of engineer, but i'd like to see where he cuts the subj : viable conlang is impossible because no one remotely understands meat well enough? or, useless, even if it were made ? ... or both ?
mircea_popescu: anyway ; language reform sometimes works - but this because it was a language, not because it was reform. similarily to how cutting fruit trees works, but this is because they are trees, not because of the cutting. if you cut a broom whatever way it's not gonna make plums.
mircea_popescu: viable conlang is impossible for the reason woman-cut-from-marble is impossible : the substance uses lacks the capacity for the intended usage.
mircea_popescu: the substance used*
asciilifeform: meat vitalism?! what happened to the robocalypse?!
mircea_popescu: language ~is a convention~, yes, but it is ~made from~ experience ; not consensus. people don't say "people" to denote people because ~they~ agreed to, but because people in the past ~have~.
mircea_popescu: this history is irreplaceable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform robots that speak natural languages ? where this, at mit ?
asciilifeform: same place as 'play go' robot (btw afaik 0 pro games since sedol... as i predicted)
mircea_popescu: yes, eventually, once v is so old to have been forgotten like the original calculations for the pyramids, robots will perhaps have enough linguistic history that you could pretend idiomatic-c is no less a language than latin.
mircea_popescu: but the historical matrix of language (on which for instance myth is merely encoding artefact of lived experience) is the key ingredient to language - which is why romanian, a language spoken by a people for many years is much more powerful than enlgish, a language spoken by much more mongrels, but not so long really.
mircea_popescu: and your objection to "ukrainian" which is a lulz much like the "croatian" for instance doesn't come and isn't informed nor supported by "the poor quality of conventions employed". it's its lack of history that marks it, correctly, as nonsense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc most conlangists were not trying to beat french, romanian, russian, etc; but to beat commercial pidgins like english, which suffer from severely limited vocabulary and many nonsensical sharp edges
mircea_popescu: yes, but they were idiots in another way : much like stalin's central planning committee (as implemented by the stuart court in london) can't beat the disorganised merchants of the low countries - just so five dorks with nary a clue can't compete with the combinatorial experimentation of the actual pigdin.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, urk 'ebonics' is perfectly speakable, just like the american variant, but (until recently) 0 written word.
asciilifeform: then again finnish had ~0 written word until 19th c
mircea_popescu: you will ~never provide a better solution to the waterflow via running equations than via running the fucking water.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/chinese-altcoin-exchange-btc38-serves-1-5-million-rmb-of-your-loss/ << Qntra - Chinese Altcoin Exchange BTC38 Serves 1.5 Million RMB Of Your Loss
mircea_popescu: they're covering it too huh
BingoBoingo: shinohai fxd
phf: another take on this might be common lisp vs scheme. cl was standardized after the fact, existed and evolved on lisp machines. i'm looking at mit's cadr at the moment, and at a certain point you have maclisp, interlisp, zetalisp and "common lisp" all coexisting on the same machine, 10 years before the standard was written. scheme on the other hand was esparantoed for a purpose. the result is that as you move closer to speaking common
phf: lisp natively, you find all these nooks and crannies in the language that facilitate. nothing like that exists in scheme
shinohai: ty BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: phf: pray tell : what does having 'elt' AND 'nth' around, facilitate ?
asciilifeform: other than bloat
asciilifeform: plus, for that matter, 'aref'
phf: asciilifeform: we had this thread, and i had an answer for you that you didn't like
asciilifeform: link plox
phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :)
asciilifeform: i can definitely see the pov of, e.g., lisp2ists
asciilifeform: and there are entirely good 'scheme is skeletal to the point of complete unusability in factory state' arguments
asciilifeform: but i have nfi why to get attached to dross and nonorthogonal crapolade.
asciilifeform: outright, indefensible babelade like nth and elt.
mircea_popescu: this otherwise defensible stand (at least in general) is why computer languages may never become more than shopping lists ; but then again fashion-behaviour (as seen in both languages and github/reddit) may have the last word.
phf: asciilifeform: last time i said that cons structures and sequences solve two entirely unrelated problems. cons specifically is a fundamental memory management abstraction for a von neumann machine (it solves the insert problem), so has its own set of operations that can predictable performance and behavioral characteristic.
phf: *that has
asciilifeform: phf: that's defensible, but only defends aref
mircea_popescu: one's enough.
asciilifeform: now tell me why elt-AND-nth.
asciilifeform: and if this were the only such example!
asciilifeform: there are 100 others.
mircea_popescu cheers on
phf: asciilifeform: elt is a sequence operator, nth is a cons cell operator. cons/car/cdr/nth/list etc. you can express nth in terms of car/cdr. you can't express elt in terms of any of those
phf: elt can potentially escape in the error clause to handle extensible sequences (and it does on SBCL)
asciilifeform: common lisp committee was hobbled by babelism, had to stuff in the redundant idiocies, and never got to, say, actually developing streams properly (why the fuck are we stuck with hacks like gray streams? and where is the commonlisp with ~working~ mop ? etc)
phf: i'm not here to ~defend~ common lisp, i made an analogy that didn't stick
mircea_popescu: i'm not terribly unhappy with the analogy.
asciilifeform: phf: why not one op that dispatches, correctly ? is it as if the compiler ever did not know the actual operand's type ?
mircea_popescu: it's just not clear if it has much substance on the jaguar's side. but clearly when ~you~ look into its eyes, ~you~ perceive a soul there.
phf: well, asciilifeform's reaction to it is consistent to his perspective on conlangs, so i learned something
asciilifeform: imho the jury is out on conlangs.
mircea_popescu: here's a view that may help alf : natural language is the summarized http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581451 calculated over something like 10*5 * 10*7 * 50*24*365*50 ~played~ instances of prisoner's dilemma.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:54 mircea_popescu: phf suppose you make an ai expert system to beat us at go. this gives you two practical options : either include 10gb worth of binary flags preset ; or else have us beat it at go for 10 centuries before it gets to where it plays like a freshly fucked 19yo.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta why i was specifically curious re what it was that the esperantist ~children~ spoke. the resultant creole, not the original 'megalomaniacal engineer' item.
mircea_popescu: natural language dictionaries are usually in the 100k symbols range ; however natural languages altogether are very large graphs, and i'd venture in the yottabyte range.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is that for most people, language is the only thought-amplifier they have. once you teach them a non-language they're very severely fucked.
mircea_popescu: wolf children of india also spoke "conlang" by this measure.
asciilifeform: which is why i'd like to see ~how~ they were fucked, there has to be some remaining crater to look at
mircea_popescu: now this may well be a great use for one linguist-anthropologist's career. you wanna be it ?
asciilifeform: 'ten years in the lab can save you ten minutes in the library'
mircea_popescu: you have a better shot at finding well written c-s implementation in the library.
mircea_popescu: but w/e, maybe my very dim view of "scholarship" in the field is entirely unwarranted, i'm just a meadhater and library contains "a river of gold", to quote obama.
asciilifeform: afaik esperantism was one of those crackpotteries utterly thermonuked by ww1, so i have nfi where one would even begin to look for remnants.
phf: indian children still mostly speak conlang "by this measure". there's something like 15 ~official~ dialects, all of which have a significant post panini sanskrit incursion so that in say malayalam you have two different ~grammatical~ structures available to express the same thing, malay and sanskrit.
mircea_popescu hasn't fucked that many indian womenz has not much clue as to their native barking system.
asciilifeform worked in a lab with two dozen folx from india, no 2 spoke same language other than english
mircea_popescu: heh
asciilifeform: the most, afaik, egregious babel on planet3.
mircea_popescu: well, india is a sort of china's africa. except the chinese were too lazy to properly fuck theirs.
phf: i still remember how my hired driver crossed the state line and had to speak a very broken english with the locals to ask for directions
mircea_popescu: but fwiw, serbian chick stands out in my mind, she was 19, her poor head had just come out of 12 years of which 6 were spent doing cyrilics and the other 6 doing ~BOTH~ latin and cyrillic and who genuinely thought that you know, this is BETTER EDUCATION!! because where other people got one, she got both!!1
mircea_popescu: on the other hand i could readily notice the havoc this had wrought upon her poor brain.
phf: asciilifeform: actually Esperanto was big in su. it was not an anathema to say that in the communist future the peoples of the word are going to speak not just Russian, but also some other, better, universal language. certainly interstellar trade would need something better. or when you talk to machines.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was how asciilifeform never learned to properly hand-write
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yep, exactly in that vein.
mircea_popescu: too slow a reader, etc.
asciilifeform: now this i escaped.
asciilifeform: no shortage of what to read.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, speaking of misfortunate subhumans : anyone care to guess the most frequent answer my bot gets ? it's "most frequent" in the sense that the next-frequent is like 2 std deviations rarer. hint : it's a question.
asciilifeform: bot?
mircea_popescu: hahaha. this ~has not yet appeared~. no mention. 0. it simply does not occur.
asciilifeform: i meant, which bot
mircea_popescu: ah, the one mentioned in http://trilema.com/2016/what-lasts-forever/
asciilifeform: aah hm
asciilifeform: no bot there?
asciilifeform: maybe http://trilema.com/2016/how-the-other-half-lives-a-very-seriously-funny-article/ ?
mircea_popescu: hm ?
mircea_popescu: oh right right sorry my bad
asciilifeform: ok i'ma guess 'a,s,l?' or similar
mircea_popescu: nope.
mircea_popescu: the boys are shockingly shy, it surprised me. 10 years ago used to be about 100x more virulent.
asciilifeform: then i have monumentally nfi
mircea_popescu: yeah. but it made me smile an ancient smile, because it is "who are you".
mircea_popescu: the republic is undefeatable ; the empire is indefensible.
phf: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/business/us-blacklists-alibaba-taobao.html
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: ah whatevs. dude what a fucking tabloid this nytimes is. no, us didn't "blacklist" anything.
phf: word on the street, that u.s. alibaba office is hiring like crazy, and that the salaries are so high, microsoft/amazon/apple no longer attempt to match compensation in the event of the poaching. so "blacklist"
mircea_popescu: aha. the way this has to go.
mircea_popescu: kinda brings to mind this lulzy discussion from 2013 : http://trilema.com/2013/the-wonder-of-inflation/#comment-93905 "dude, if inflation is this high, us gdp must be shrinking ?" "certainly is".
BingoBoingo: OMG, at least half of all US small business now is private labeling shit from alibaba and reselling!
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: making us a sort of argentina with slightly better developed oil expoitation.
asciilifeform: phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588411 << have some pointers, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-23#890120 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-03#1087259 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225073 (mega-thread) , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225194 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225522 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225571 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225624 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-08#1230216 (fir☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 17:46 phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :)
a111: Logged on 2014-10-23 04:41 asciilifeform: no hidden formats
a111: Logged on 2015-04-03 21:41 asciilifeform: trinque: when you use a version control apparatus, it is very easy to produce patches that cannot be applied using your mind
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 03:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he still has a point. a) we're careening dangerously towards -dev levels and b) people can't fucking follow wtf is on that list.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 04:42 asciilifeform: also the continuity of identity. if, for example, my patches at some point go from tiny to elephantine, from single-purpose to 'omnibus', from deadly-simple to 'wtf is that' - folks are to presume that i have been finally killed and key is in hands of hitler. and should then rate accordingly.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 13:38 mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:00 mircea_popescu: there's no reason for this to take a week to do.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:11 mircea_popescu: how would this b-a versioning system work ?
a111: Logged on 2015-08-08 04:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in somewhat related nyooz, i've been experimenting with what for now i call 'v' - a very dumb 'versioner' that i've been writing, which eats solely 0) pgp keys 1) patches 2) signatures for same, many-to-many mapping of (2) to (1)
asciilifeform: st mention of v specifically) http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-31#1257189☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-31 14:33 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-08-2015#1257082 << i loathe python per se. but the only realistic alternative was perl. (my original attempts at 'v' were in awk/sed, and did not work very well)
asciilifeform: ok this was heavy but probably useful.
mircea_popescu: da fuck
phf: ahaha
asciilifeform: stress test for a111!11111
phf: actually the subject is an ongoing, year old conversation about about V as a way to represent knowledge starts with http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-12#1271598 and then gets revisited every couple of months☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-09-12 20:28 mircea_popescu: which... you know, i slept on this, and it occurs to me that ACTUAL MATHEMATICS might be the perfect thing to implement over V.
mircea_popescu: phf ah, yes, but note that the item contemplated there is specifically not discussion ; but its results.
mircea_popescu: but yah, seems v was born principally out of a discussion on august 5th
asciilifeform: it was a fairly unambitious generalization from things we had already been doing by hand in trbdom
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: and also from a comment by mircea_popescu that went something like 'i must be able to put finger on a line of code and get names'
phf: mircea_popescu: i misremembered, because later V in my mind merged with gossipd (http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1376781)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 14:46 mircea_popescu: you could technically run a chan off v.
mircea_popescu: software design as god intended. FIRST you do by hand ; THEN you automate the parts worth automating.
mircea_popescu: phf aha
phf: but the reason i made those statements yesterday is because i think that like saying things in log is an opportunity to be corrected, so does posting a vpatch, it could be a learning experience. instead the mindset seems to be http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-20#1411214☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-02-20 22:45 phf: "i, ordained computron mircea lifeform, in the year of our republic 1932, having devoted three months to the verification of checksums, with my heart pure and my press clean, sit down to transcribe vee patch ascii_limits_hack, signed by the illustrious asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes and all saints."
asciilifeform: phf: i stabbed at the problem of formalizing a way to specify what it is you actually commit to when signing a patch. it was the 'vectorized' thing, and everybody barfed.
asciilifeform: so we're at the chalkboard still.
mircea_popescu: phf you don't have to post a snippet of code as ~vpatch~. can just pastebin it also
asciilifeform: phf: recently mircea_popescu suggested a cleaner scheme where everybody has multiple signing keys, and they rate one another, as if they were people. which is probably as mechanized as this will ever get.
mircea_popescu: you ~can~ after all rebase a patch ; not just because of the patch, but also because of the sig.
mircea_popescu: ie, item X enters life signed by "doubful matter key Z" and then a year later is signed by "ok this is it key Z" and makes it to the stable press
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: signed-but-non-vtronic snippets are vulnerable to context misplacement.
mircea_popescu: nono, vtronic.
mircea_popescu: can release patch today under your text sig ; rebase it later with your main sig.
phf: mircea_popescu: correction in this case can come in a form of another vpatch either by original author after the discussion or by anyone who wants to make annotations, etc. in which case the dialog becomes valuable on its own, because it preserves the differences that have didactic value
mircea_popescu: you can literally come up with an idea for a thing while travelling ; go to internet cafe ; spin up gpg to make you a new key while you bash it down ; then sign the patch with that key which you don't even bother taking from there.
mircea_popescu: if it's any good, you can always sign it later as phf.
asciilifeform: important thing to remember, though, is that once you sign something, it ~exists~, and you cannot control it by selectively posting it to this-public-site but not that-public-site
asciilifeform: a 'helpful' fella can simply repaste it.
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: phf yes, in principle. in practice i expect "centralizing" rebasing vpatches to happen all the time to prune trees of their noncontroversial joints.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what does the cafe key provide ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a fixed form.
asciilifeform: that a naked, barbaric pastebin would not
mircea_popescu: i'm just saying - there's nothing lost here. can emulate naked pastebin in v style np.
asciilifeform: there's no 'fixed form' from a key made on public comp tho
asciilifeform: may as well sign with a phuctored key
mircea_popescu: ~same as of a pastebin
asciilifeform: quite the same
mircea_popescu: right.
phf: i guess the multiple keys idea was already introduced in gossipd (in the original spec i suspect it was a solution to "no automatic RSA-ing" problem)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-28#1254193 << moar detail from 'history of v', for the record.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-28 03:13 asciilifeform: thing does exactly three basic kinds of thing - verifies sigs; determines what subcoagulations of spittle in the spittoon are in fact in single strands; and permits operator to select individual strands, and cut'em (by whatever criteria, including signatories or combinations thereof)
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's grandfather had a gigantic tray of rubber stamps, of what must have been a dozen different shapes, and when signing a document would first stamp it with the rubber that corresponded to the imperial role in which the signing was to take place. this was orc sop. and i suppose the concept is doomed to stick around.
phf: asciilifeform: these are basically three different solutions to the same problem of "how to allow more than one kind of vpatch". yours is mechanical, mine is an attempt to expand the mythos and mp's is cutting the gordian knot
asciilifeform: and there are bound to be mistakes, ranging from the harmless lul to the utter calamity, 'oops i used my 'royal alchemist' stamp instead of 'dildolathe operator by appointment to Her Majesty' stamp'
asciilifeform: but such is life.
asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu's method , to be used in the battlefield, still needs some means of tying the keys together formally -- and something that doesn't reduce to the horror of gpg's 'subkeys'
mircea_popescu: should be entirely at operator's option.
asciilifeform: naturally
asciilifeform: but what is the best way to make permanent record that ' mircea_popescu's i-found-this-in-back-of-desk-drawer ' key is subservient strictly to ' mircea_popescu royal key ' ?
mircea_popescu: why would such record be made ?
asciilifeform: to not give the enemy a place to stick the knife.
mircea_popescu: illustrate this
asciilifeform: well iirc in mircea_popescu's original sketch, the sole linkage between mircea_popescu-royalkey and mircea_popescu-apocryphakey is a wot rating. and wot as we have it is an ephemeral thing, which relies on ability to interrogate living people, and not only living but near to the interlocutor in wot.
asciilifeform: signatures, on the other hand, are not ephemeral but permanent.
asciilifeform: so we have here a suit of armour where the leather straps rot, but the iron -- does not.
mircea_popescu: and ?
asciilifeform: and it is doomed to look quite different, with passage of time, than the maker intends.
mircea_popescu: if patches are signed by dead people only, they don't belong in presses
mircea_popescu: there;s no intention involved in or supported by vtronics
asciilifeform: a rsa signature is a canned, if you will, piece of volition.
asciilifeform: there is intent.
mircea_popescu: i udn see it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a pretty good exposition of this, not long ago, in the 'opposed' thread
mircea_popescu: how does that come to "intention" ?
mircea_popescu: facts are opposable. intentions aren't a thing.
asciilifeform: actually the relevant mircea_popescu article was another, where he had example of a man who is about to be hanged, but argues that the man who did the crime, is not the one who is bound and led to the gallows
mircea_popescu: facts.
asciilifeform: if you have 'soft' linkages between subservient keys, and no way to 'harden' them for the record, a slick operator could simply shed subpersonalities like snake skins, and there will be doubt in re the contiguity of identity, where there ought be no possibility of doubt.
mircea_popescu: nobody forces you to even consider patches signed by people out of your wot.
asciilifeform: nobody forces you to use comp either
asciilifeform: or to drink salt water in the lifeboat.
mircea_popescu: hey.
asciilifeform: all of the extant vtrons, i will point out, run on linux, which is a monstrous horror of the deep that no one in my wot has signed, ditto python, perl, etc.
mircea_popescu: i suspect we'll get to it.
asciilifeform: we are far from the autarkik vplanet.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have a perfectly serviceable way to harden keys for the record. it's just not ~standardized~, and it's unclear it should be.
asciilifeform: what'd it be, hypothetically ?
mircea_popescu: well cuz i can say so. "key x is my key".
asciilifeform: deedbot-of-humanreadable is not 'harden', it does not utterly thermonuke the possibility of ambiguity.
mircea_popescu: your notion of harden is both illusory and useless.
asciilifeform: 'harden' means hardness on the level of rsa signature itself.
mircea_popescu: rsa signature is not hard per your definition.
asciilifeform: it is not infinitely hard, but is a standard, like diamond, for what is realistic hardness.
mircea_popescu: and how is my declaration weaker ?
asciilifeform: if it were not weaker, there would be no work for jurists, neh ?
asciilifeform: comp could do their work.
mircea_popescu: this doesn't follow.
mircea_popescu: universality and hardness are orthogonal, how hard a diamond is as a standard of realistic hardness has entirely nothing to do with how many cunts wear one around their whatever appendage.
asciilifeform: gedankenexperiment. say i have a billion signed texts, from all over the galaxy, and also a number of keys, can i mechanically query 'documents signed by all of mircea_popescu's known subserviant keys' ? is the notion that anyone trying to do this is by definition up to no good ?
asciilifeform: because if so, making the declarations 'human text' is hardly an effective barrier
mircea_popescu: yes, once you populate a db with the keyids of "known mp's subservient keys" you can
mircea_popescu: and there's no "up to good" or "no good" directionality of intent involved here. he is up to nonsense, because meaning and universality are mutually exclusive.
asciilifeform: yes but let's suppose that mircea_popescu mistyped, deliberately or otherwise, a character(s) in the string, and wrote 'kye x is ym key'
asciilifeform: still 'counts' for the purpose of automated wotronics ?
mircea_popescu: ok
mod6: So I have made a couple small changes to my V99995, and have put together an output trace of what we were seeing with V99995 and what we now see with the changes made in a possible V99994 version. Review of this would be nice to validate that the behavior is correct: http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt
mircea_popescu: automated vtronics is like having cat "read" balzac for you.
asciilifeform: a blind man may well have a machine with many fewer moving parts than cat, read his balzac.
mircea_popescu: no i mean while you're not there.
mircea_popescu: it just you know, reads it by itself.
mircea_popescu: "for" you
ben_vulpes: mod6: appears to address concerns
mircea_popescu: if you have a collection of keys you're - for whatever reason, maybe they're all me, maybe they're my harem, maybe they're all the people from russia, whatever - interested in, yes you can build the set of all pathes they signed.
mircea_popescu: but ~making that list~ is entirely unmachineable ; and me being very careful not to typo doesn't help
ben_vulpes: can you cook a diff between v9..5 and v9..4 ?
mod6: sure, but i'll remain unsigned until testing.
mircea_popescu: (which is what all ~ALL~ standardization EVER does - makes it so you're really careful not to typo. it can't resolve problems of the other nature, just this.)
mod6: *it'll
ben_vulpes: sure
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588519 << 'rebase' in my mind entails changing vpatch to have new hashes, or some other mutation. just transmitting a new sig does not change where a patch might lie in the tree.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 18:49 mircea_popescu: you ~can~ after all rebase a patch ; not just because of the patch, but also because of the sig.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes how would you call it ? reseal ?
ben_vulpes: what's wrong with 'signing'?
mod6: http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-test/v99994.vpatch
mircea_popescu: i dunno, seems somewhat unclear to me.
mircea_popescu: reseal = the act of signing a patch with your own key.
mircea_popescu: sign = the act of signing anything.
ben_vulpes: whence 're', though. that other key was 'derpderp ben_vulpes', not 'foundation chair ben_vulpes'
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes which of the trb genesis seals are seal and which reseal ?
ben_vulpes: all are seal imho
mircea_popescu: alright.
ben_vulpes: reseal, what is this. signed same matter again?
mircea_popescu: so then rebase / seal.
ben_vulpes: rebase/regrind to move the patch in the tree and seal to...seal.
mircea_popescu: works.
phf: i feel like there was a neat article about the history of seals somewhere inthe logs, but i can't find it
mircea_popescu: hm.
phf: i think it might've been by the same guy who did "history of timekeeping" or somesuch that was briefly trashed hmm
mircea_popescu: naggum ?
phf: no no different article
mircea_popescu reads recipes for coffee liqueur on web. INSTANT COFFEE! they... USE WATER! holy shit...
phf: it sort traced western history from the perspective of time measurement. "and then they had a city clock to synchronize everyone"
mircea_popescu: phf oh sounds like szabo
mircea_popescu: guy's very uneven, bright ideas + bad scholarship.
phf: ah, right that's the guy
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : if you google bitcoin authors you get : Andreas Antonopoulos, Gavin Andresen, Adam Back, Brian Behlendorf, Wences Casares, Hal Finney, Satoshi Nakamoto, Charlie Shrem.
mircea_popescu: i kid you not.
asciilifeform: phf: it was szabo.
asciilifeform: and holyshit, is his site gone??
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/Cjlr5 << it.
mircea_popescu: it is ?
asciilifeform: it dun load for me
asciilifeform: ( http://szabo.best.vwh.net/seals.html )
asciilifeform: phf: on the other hand , 'long and painful history of time' ~was~ naggum
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, seems down
phf: it must've been down for a while, because wikipedia uses archive.is to link to his homepage
asciilifeform: it was alive last we spoke of it here...
phf: yeah, i remember mp scoffing at "a measure of sacrifice" few months ago
mircea_popescu: pity we didn't have the bot archival thing earlier huh.
phf: pitty we didn't have it from the beginning. all those beautiful tumblr pictures lost forever
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 858.95, vol: 12335.15818543 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 843.9, vol: 8349.45358 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 859.65, vol: 17134.15426123 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 874.962365, vol: 5619669.47630000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 856.84, vol: 2768.47470403 | Volume-weighted last average: 874.826433963
ben_vulpes: phf: and how!
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: cunt is the one thing that's not running out.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: please to s/being/behind in pencil piece as per ben_vulpes' appreciated astutery.
BingoBoingo: ty fxd
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/mps-harem-level-black-russian/ << Trilema - MP's Harem Level Black Russian
pete_dushenski: "Burning tree liters" << pun o typo ?
mircea_popescu: lol!
mircea_popescu: fixt
pete_dushenski: :D
pete_dushenski: i've heard of burning trees and i've heard of burning litres... but putting them together results in little more than a vw hippie wagon in my head.
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/a-pox-upon-your-house << CH - A Pox Upon Your House!
pete_dushenski: so ~that's~ where all my outsized vitriol went.
mod6: ben_vulpes: haha
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/us-leftists-begin-collecting-arms/ << Qntra - US Leftists Begin Collecting Arms
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/vehlisp-genesisvpatch << CH - veh.lisp genesis.vpatch
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: crazily enough, pingbacks work when issued from my own wp instance
asciilifeform: ^ this is seriously neato , ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: ty asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: do let me know if you find anything odd about it
asciilifeform downloaded it earlier today when ben_vulpes first posted, but not yet tested.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: that genesis is mildly diddled from the earlier paste
ben_vulpes: and yes, thing has sharp edges, betrays exit codes for some unix processes
ben_vulpes: very much a harem-v. but -- works for me.
asciilifeform: possibly my point re 'harem v' was ambiguous. what i wanted to say was that ~every~ vtron has a harem end and a forum end
asciilifeform: the forum end eats, shits vpatches
asciilifeform: the harem end -- presses, and does miscellaneous housekeeping ops (e.g., 'origin')
ben_vulpes: aaaah
asciilifeform: a hypothetical vtron with a correct forum-end and a disastrously broken harem-end can only hose ~the owner~
ben_vulpes: i did mistake that to mean "vs the public is pointed to as example vs. vs whose operations are private to the owner"
asciilifeform: the only necessarily public part, i will point out, is the vpatches
asciilifeform: hypothetically we could live exactly the same way with NO published vtrons at all!
asciilifeform: and each man -- wrote his own.
asciilifeform: (the seals and keys also must be public, naturally, but i am referring to the collective 'set' here)
asciilifeform: that's what 'harem end' means -- that it literally does not matter how it works, except TO YOU
asciilifeform: just as ben_vulpes has 0 particular reason to care how asciilifeform laid out his keyboard, or that it weighs 6kg
asciilifeform: or how my display gamma is set.
asciilifeform: on the other hand, if asciilifeform were to decide to speak ebcdic one day, we would have a problem talking.
Framedragger thanks ben_vulpes for the CL implementation
Framedragger: meanwhile, new talk from idlewords: http://idlewords.com/talks/superintelligence.htm
asciilifeform: lel yudkoswkyism
Framedragger: (note, slow start, spoiler: derision revealed after premises presented)
asciilifeform: 'AI risk is string theory for computer programmers. It's fun to think about, interesting, and completely inaccessible to experiment given our current technology. You can build crystal palaces of thought, working from first principles, then climb up inside them and pull the ladder up behind you.'
asciilifeform: lulzy
asciilifeform: aha it's the ceglowksi d00d!
asciilifeform: the one with the pirate radio.
Framedragger: yeah!
Framedragger: (mp suggested to invite him over, and here i am childishly fearing that he'll hate this place, mp will decide that he's not mp-complete/ready, and that's gonna be that. i know, sad.)
ben_vulpes: what'd the repulic accrete this year, 2 new faces?
asciilifeform: we had this with at least 1 d00d who i respected (spandrel/'bloody shovel')
ben_vulpes: shinohai and Framedragger ?
ben_vulpes: o also vc
asciilifeform: !~seen vc
jhvh1: asciilifeform: I have not seen vc.
phf: !#seen vc
a111: 2016-06-12 <vc> Framedragger: I'm cool with port scans, neither me nor my parent host cares
asciilifeform: hm
asciilifeform: the other bot -- broken, or wat.
phf: other bot only recalls anyone it saw since it started running, where's a111 is looking at logs