mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587625 << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn
☝︎☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 21:35 mod6: which basically means to me, either no one understands "vtronics" or no one who did ever audited the thing. and i'm clearly not qualified and shouldn't have written the fucking thing int he first place.
mircea_popescu: 't think you're an expert email or vim or bash user after less than a year and that's about how long v's been around.
mod6: So I have a bit of code that I've inserted that will do what you ask.
mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
☟︎☟︎ mod6: err 'validate_seals'. that's the one.
mod6: and it's one of the first executing routines in my v.
mod6: death() means that we die. we stop then and there. continue no further.
mod6: consider the following paste I'll put together... stand by.
mod6: i need to dig into this a bit more, but the output flow is not necessarily the same order that the signature verification happens in.
mod6: that's because toposort hasn't happened yet.
mircea_popescu: mod6 in any case if you'd have never written the thing you'd have never found this thing. so you know, it's always worth losing fingers.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:01 mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587625 << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his reasoning is fucking broken ; same time means nothing, if he found difference it might've meant something
BingoBoingo so far happy with end of the year lulz acceleration following slow early december
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mircea_popescu: not particularily correct ; should iterate over patches, check sealness ; act accordingly.
mircea_popescu: im not sure it has to die when it encounters malformed patch (be it not signed or whatever), but anyway.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-18 15:35 ascii_butugychag: jurov: theoretically you can avoid using the name prior to .sig, but then you have to check ALL seals agains ALL patches ALWAYS and this is O(N^2)
a111: Logged on 2015-08-15 17:46 mircea_popescu: why ?
mircea_popescu: and patches are checked against seals ; not seals against patches.
mircea_popescu: no they won't ; partly because we won't be doing anything idiotic like "giving random names to seals".
mircea_popescu: for every patch, check if patch sig by approved names is present. this isn't any sort of N^2 ; it's O(N*M) where N is the count of patches and M the count of approved signers.
mircea_popescu: the disadvantage of being clever is that one will be surprised.
mircea_popescu: well when we finally have better-pg, we may do different things, but really...
mod6: <+asciilifeform>
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587685 << the simplest way to implement this is to iterate over the ~seals~, finding corresponding patches << <+mircea_popescu> not particularily correct ; should iterate over patches, check sealness ; act accordingly. << 'validate_seals' does this; iterates over patches, finds seals for patch, verifies or fails if bad ;; now dies if there are none.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> im not sure it has to die when it encounters malformed patch (be it not signed or whatever), but anyway. << i was thinking this was simple because of this:
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> there shouldn't be any flag - nor should it press unsigned things. && <+mircea_popescu> with the test key ? why not ? fucks with your workflow ?
mod6: i think it's fine. you make a testkey, you sign your test vpatches, you press & test, etc. then we're using encryption everywhere. and we fail fast.
mod6: we don't not allow the oppertunity to continue without a signature on a vpatch.
mircea_popescu: mod6 if it simply skips over the patches it can't find acceptable sigs for, it delivers asciilifeform 's thing above where you don't have to keep fucking around with the patch set.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: you ought to be able to press variant-wots (say, mod6-only) without having to also remove patches mod6 did not sign from patches dir << now this.
mircea_popescu: it should probably stop if it finds valid patch that can't be applied (mismatched hashes) - because by then your state is broken.
mod6: this perhaps works as is, in a way.
mod6: if you want 'mod6' only, you remove all other guys from your wot
mod6: ok so yah. if you only have 'mod6' in your wot, and you leave ~all~ of the sigs (from alf, mp, trinque, bc) in your .seals dir, then we throw an error and die.
mod6: but if you get rid of everyone else's sigs from .seals, then it's fine and you can happily do 'mod6' tree.
mircea_popescu: well he can run his v any way he pleases ; but yes it should prolly just drop the bad patch and move on
mod6: i suspect that it isn't written that way.
mod6: i gather, to implement what is sort of discussed here, will take quite an overhaul
mod6: and not that it shoudn't anyway, there are some things about my implementation that i do not appreciate looking back on it.
mod6: i want it to work the way that it is supposed to work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes ; methodological objections are really of those three pillars. like "use ascii" or "the signatures are given TO BE USED" etc.
mod6: which, is my fault for having a somewhat, apparently, limited grasp
mircea_popescu: mod6 no, the discussion is actually very productive in that it actually helps specify exactly what v is.
mircea_popescu: such as in "what classes of objections can or can't be brought to a v implementation"
mircea_popescu: that it eschews key checks is one thing ; that it dies on which condition is apparently a different thing.
mod6: this is fair, and i agree. i do want it to work the way it it should work. not the way it does work if those are disjointed. no way to get there, except through these kinds of investigations.
mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: whereas if you allow dieing in arbitrary condition, then whatever, you get a more restrictive v than other people.
trinque: as an aside, an environment where "man makes own necessities" out of still simpler tools he can combine as he likes, strikes me as ideal.
trinque wrote an mda yesterday because maildrop and procmail are dogshit.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i dun recall mine doing any verification
mod6: so what you're saying... is that i should be able to say "v press output_press_dir SOME_HEAD mircea_popescu"
mod6: and in the context of trb, I would end up with, currently, just genesis.vpatch pressed out in 'output_press_dir'
mod6: aside from the fact that I might have 69 people in my .wot, and 4000 sigs in my .seals dir.
ben_vulpes: if by "mircea_popescu" you mean "only mircea_popescu's key in .wot"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:52 mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the idea is that you should be able to alter the end product by altering .wot rather than by altering .wot AND .patch or .seal
mod6: so today, with my impl, you'd have to at minimum, get rid of 3999 sigs from .seals. you could also, if you wanted to, get rid of 68 pub keys in your .wot. iirc, that part isn't required tho.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: to be fair, .wot, .seals and patches apparently constitutes 'hidden state' today.
mircea_popescu: mod6 in practice you'd just keep .seals_mp .seals_all .seals_alfmod6 etc and move them around
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i don't even want to open that discussion, it's fucking obvious they're equivalent but whatevers.
mod6: mircea_popescu: aha. ok.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: and .git idem but let's not.
ben_vulpes: imho v should not barf when patch and seal exist but key does not in wot
mod6: not that it's correct, just for example of "where are we at?"
mod6: fwiw, and this may not be the correct way, but i think i just tried to clone alf's.
mod6: ok. see maybe there was something there that I didn't pick up on. :/
ben_vulpes: so long as there is at least one signature for which v can import a corresponding key, that patch should press.
mircea_popescu: i agree with the notion .wot is supposed to be a filter over .seals
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> so long as there is at least one signature for a patch, for which signature v can import a corresponding key, on the basis of the wot, that patch should press. << ftfy.
mod6: we are seriously way beyond 'noshit' territory.
mod6: if it were obvious, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.
mod6: im like, mentally retarded. i need things spelled out in explicit, literal forms. :]
mircea_popescu: that's ok, i'm just waiting for phf to say something so i unrate him
mod6: so let's back up a minute, cause i'm still trying to figure out what I need to do here...
mod6: so mine, with only 'mod6' in .wot, calls death() when encountering a sig from a person not included in the wot.
mod6: i could almost swear that we had a whole discussion on this before where we wanted it this way??
mod6: what I should do, is ignore that sig, and continue iterating, collecting up all of the mod6 .sigs and then creating a v-tree from just those alone.
mod6: where's the camera crew?
mod6: i gotta dig through the logs now.
mod6: it's totally fine if that's how we want it.
mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this.
☟︎ mod6: (former lumps from having this impl before, and then removing it to its current state)
ben_vulpes: i'm pretty sure the design as described above is correct. the way i imagined this working in steady state is for patches and .seals to accumulate all of the patches and signatures thereof a user'd seen over all of history, and then the contents of .wot used to filter the patches and press used to pick a head.
a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 22:15 mircea_popescu: so /me gives new girl task to press v, half hour ago. other than the url issue above, "hey what sigs should i put in here ?"
ben_vulpes: and yes, this implies an o(n^2) worst case process in (or (map 'boolean (lambda (sig) (verify 'some_patch.vpatch' sig)))
mod6: read the link! that's exactly what it does right now, this very minute.
ben_vulpes: no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine.
ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.
☟︎ trinque: if V does not "verify sigs of >1 important people ~to me~ at each step of doing anything" where exactly does it diverge from git
trinque: less messy code is not enough
trinque: and what, I have to be drinking to see this? spent pages criticizing the horrible, accidental evolution of cat.
trinque: but we can "just wante to press" because god's children
phf: ben_vulpes: this was a general comment, but the cost of failure is so high, simple things have become needlessly complicated.
trinque: internal consistency is not a huge ask.
ben_vulpes: that there are 3 implementations of v is an indicator of healthy amounts of risk taking.
trinque: this squirming away from "why does the output not match the pages of ideology" is troubling.
mod6: im <+ben_vulpes> just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right. << maybe.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine. << this i dont agree with -- from a technical perspective. it looks to me that girl had "ascii and mod6" in .wot, and when it came across Mr. P.'s genesis .sig, it honked.
mod6: now, we not want that behviour any longer.
☟︎ mod6: but i'm trying to get down to brass tacks as much as possible.
mod6: i'm happy to re-write/overhaul/whatever this thing.
ben_vulpes: 1) pressing vpatches absent signatures matching keys in .wot
mod6: just wanna make sure we all understand what we want.
ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
☟︎☟︎ ben_vulpes: 1) is incorrect imho and 2) also incorrect imho
ben_vulpes: which i wrote before putting down a single line of code.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: did your v exit when finding signatures without matching keys? i do not recall.
mod6: i posit that it did indeed.
mod6: infact, i stole that error message.
ben_vulpes: then wot-variant presses were never possible with the originally released v?
mod6: let's fight about it.
ben_vulpes: and argument ad that's how it was done does not carry
trinque: my objects can be better stated as an irritation that the political considerations here do not seem to be driving the conversation.
trinque: V as conceived as a political weapon against the shitsucking github fuck does not work without the attribution the signatures provide
trinque: my digestion of the notion of opposable signatures produces this output.
phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.
☟︎ trinque: but there is a place to do so, where there could be separation between the lab and the published-in-journal
ben_vulpes: phf: asciilifeform signed his, iirc i signed mine
mod6: mine is signed 69 times for sure.
trinque: I have released several pieces of homegrown signed code
ben_vulpes: with 'not battlefield ready' all over it, but nevertheless.
phf: none of them are genesis + vpatch revisions.
trinque: and fwiw phf I merely said "do not come to me asking about phf", recently. I did not say further.
ben_vulpes: phf: now tell me if that's sloth or fear
phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"
☟︎ mod6: creating a genesis is a different thing too; v create a genesis of v. which i did work out, but alas, as you are eluding to, i never published because was nervous that it hadn't been very well audited yet.
mod6: and who knows, imho, there's no gigantic rush to make a genesis for v. especially when we're still trying to work out how it should work.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-24 03:21 mircea_popescu: to put it in you'll have to sign it. if it turns out later to have a hole, people will negrate you.
trinque: real quick what the hell is eggog
phf: ben_vulpes: see i'm not even sure which one of you is kidding. ~possibly~ neither :D
ben_vulpes: completely misremembering ru alphabet lessons, apparently.
phf: ben_vulpes: well, actually "r" pronounced as "g" is an infamous yiddish lisp
mod6: i do want that traceibility from V, of my V.
mod6: And I'm happy to embark on a genesis once we resolve these current problems and the testing and review by lords is complete.
ben_vulpes: i hold that exiting on discovery of a seal with no corresponding key in .wot puts an unnecessary burden on the operator to maintain system state.
mod6: i like the idea that you've got 'mod6 & ben_vulpes' in your .wot, and that you hvae 69,000 sigs in your .seals dir, and only select out the ones that match the .wot.
mod6: that seems fine, and yes, less painful to me.
phf: ben_vulpes: well, the point of V that has been celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog. you say something, i make a response, etc. this thread was literally about three different versions, one of them is stale, one of them is unreleased. there's not really an easy way to point to the line and say "oh this is what this does" etc. i claim that the source of this problem is fear. the genesis has to be perfect for all
mod6: phf: naw. even mircea_popescu has encouraged me to release it, even if it has warts.
mod6: im just trying to minimize the warts a bit.
trinque: ben_vulpes: what does the thing do if not exit?
trinque: presses the thing sealed because ambiguous somebody signed?
phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate
☟︎ ben_vulpes: trinque: all three implementations show which keys signed which patches in flow output.
trinque: how is this effective use of crypto at all?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'press if no signature is found'?
trinque: ben_vulpes: what keys, you said you don't have them anywhere
ben_vulpes: trinque: if all vpatches from genesis to HEAD carry a signature corresponding to a key in .wot, v presses. that signatures exist in .seals for people i don't choose to put the key for into .wot should not matter.
ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)
☟︎ ben_vulpes: error, really. making a null set joke.
mod6: with some minor tweaks
phf: ah, yeah i see. ok i'll keep funken one in experimental too, and move it to deprecated eventually
trinque: if I am truthfully the only one present that sees parts of the hard definition of this thing falling off all the time I'll leave it there.
ben_vulpes: mod6: aha, privkey_tools descends from the low_s and testnet patches
trinque: but I cannot see *why* they should other than "I just want to"
ben_vulpes: trinque: please say what hard definitions are lost.
trinque: were they not in the logs?
ben_vulpes: trinque: best i saw was that you want more than one seal and i'm content with one
trinque: I see other folks here discussing in logs.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:40 ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
trinque: you do not trust the seal; you trust the identity
trinque: otherwise yes, asciilifeform is right that if this doesn't matter, just have a thing that presses patches with hashes in the m
ben_vulpes: one can have either "die on discovery of seal for which wot lacks key" or "wot variant press"
trinque: does it matter or not who signed?
☟︎ ben_vulpes: of course it does, that's what .wot is for.
ben_vulpes: i reserve the right to hold onto gavins patches and never press them by use of .wot.
trinque: why is V for your private perversions? lel
ben_vulpes: i get the impression i disastrously fail to understand your point, trinque .
ben_vulpes: i will motherfucking *not* shuffle both patches/* and .wot/* around when i want to press. this is stupid and carves off a whole space of adjacent possible.
trinque: the thing is a political tool, and either does or does not acheive its desired effects
trinque: it aims to cause you to do certain things
trinque: attribute changes to the definitions of words with your ass
trinque: one can say the purpose of the bomb was to explode over there but that's ridiculously backwards
trinque: I put it there and chemical reactions happened and so on.
trinque: V is a harsh constraint upon the programmer that says that his acts will be unavoidably attributable to him, and those that vouched for him.
trinque: "push this button to make it stop hurting" has no place in the tool
ben_vulpes: let's rewind: what does trinque miss when v finds a seal for a vpatch for which it doesn't find a key and proceeds merrily, provided it does find *a* seal for the patch that corresponds to a key in .wot?
trinque: are you saying lean on the gpg keyring then?
trinque: otherwise I could swear that was the same thing twice
trinque: yes, so, how do I parse that statement.
mod6: i think, he's saying, what is the benefit of V honking when it doesn't find a key in your wot that matches a seal in your seal dir, provided that you don't pull a mod6.
trinque: we had just discussed pressing things with no sig
trinque: and I was all hot and bothered
trinque: thank you for your patience gentlemen
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:40 ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
ben_vulpes: i'm changing diapers over here, it's a wonder that even asciilifeform can make sense of what i'm saying.
mod6: i proposed a fix for mine. i think it was ultimiately rejected.
mod6: it sounds like everyone wants instead, a general overhaul to get to the 'wot variant press' instead, which would also fix the bug, because these vpatches, without a corresponding seal, would simply be ignored.
☟︎ mod6: i apologize for this oversight about the WILD patches.
ben_vulpes: provided the implementation fails if any patch in the flow has *no* signatures from keys in .wot, that sounds right.
ben_vulpes: (and in the absence of a WILD boolean, asciilifeform's pain-receptor-switch)
mod6: i thought you didn't want it to fail.
mod6: i thought that you just wanted to it to be left out of any possible flow.
ben_vulpes: i think this is 'implementation detail'.
ben_vulpes: well, hang on. if patches with no sigs are omitted from flow, they won't show up as WILD in the flow, correct?
ben_vulpes: they should still appear in the flow but marked as wild.
mod6: they will never, ever show up.
mod6: you will, you must, have everything signed for it to show up in a pressable flow.
☟︎ ben_vulpes: "flow" refers to the antecedent chain, nothing else.
mod6: this is why they exist in the first place, these WILD vpatches, because my impl wasn't written with this in mind. i was more written with the idea that a guy would place things in .wot/.seals/patches by hand and would know what is what.
mod6: but i apologize, and see that this is the wrong way. and there is a better way.
ben_vulpes: the antecedent chain can be constructed without ever needing to refer to the signing of patches, and imho should show all patches in the flow, alongside which keys signed them and if none then marked as wild
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> pressable being operative word there. << it is inconsequencial.
ben_vulpes: as asciilifeform's original and mine did.
mod6: if you were to print the flow, it would still not show up.
mod6: the printable flow, is the same as the pressable flow.
☟︎ mod6: and this would be predicated upon who is in your .wot.
ben_vulpes: flow is simply the directed acyclic graph of patches, and is *not* predicated on wot contents.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> flow is simply the directed acyclic graph of patches, and is *not* predicated on wot contents. << disagree.
mod6: it is completely dependant on this.
mod6: because why would i want gavin's vpatch stuck in the middle of my flow, if he's not in my wot?
mod6: pressable or printable, doesn't matter. the wot is the dictator.
ben_vulpes: fact remains that the dag can be constructed without reference to the wot.
mod6: it *can*, but shouldn't be.
ben_vulpes: that we print it as a list is an unfortunate accident.
mod6: ben_vulpes: i actually love that feature.
ben_vulpes: mod6: may construct his flow and press list in his v impl however he wants
ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.
☟︎ ben_vulpes: and this can only be done by calculating the dag and then indicating who signed which patches.
mod6: i mean, we could do it that way... where the printable flow tells you which do not have sigs, but then impl-wise, they must be two different lists as to not inadvertantly press out a WILD vpatch. that, or re-check the flow at press time.
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deedbot: L1: 4, L2: 16 by 10 connections.
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated phf 4 at 2016/05/17 03:19:21 << his lordship the lord chancellor
deedbot: Guest36448 voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:15 mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this.
mircea_popescu: i was saying "this is working correctly", did it end up reading the opposite ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:22 ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:39 mod6: now, we not want that behviour any longer.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:35 asciilifeform: trinque: are you thinking of mod6's minor bug , or of some other
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:44 asciilifeform: i ended up turning that into a warning, vs fatal, but it looks like i never posted this variant.
mircea_popescu: more or less loud recalibrations as practice crystallizes to be expected in such circumstance.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587923 << i am fwiw satisfied that it's qutie mroe than this : vs aren't on btcbase because they don't fundamentally belong on btcbase, because unlike public trb "we all use this" they're private "my girl will dance the way ~i~ want her to dance and stfu". there's a much more limited set of rules re what vtrons should do ; than re what trbs should do.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:47 phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.
mircea_popescu: i perceive no benefit to, eg, getting everyone to use mod6's or alf's or anyone else's v implementation, as opposed to the present situation ; just as i perceive no advantage to getting everyone to make "his own" trb.
mircea_popescu: this opposition may be less categorical than it seems here, and may evolve in time, but i suspect even if a continuous function it'll never be convex.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:58 asciilifeform: there is a 'harem-v' and a 'forum-v'
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's possible that as technology matures it goes from this stage to "yawn, whatever, just use the cannonical version". so there's possibly that path there.
mircea_popescu: and on the other hand, i suppose it's entirely possible that if a years-made-wiser satoshi tried to release bitcoin, it'd have been done in the manner of how we did vtrons not in the manner of how he did bitcoin, ie, "here's what should happen - anyone who wants to participate make one"
mircea_popescu: so there's no real strong categorical difference from theory. but in practice it sure as fuck exists.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin'd certainly be infinitely stronger were it the result of a concurrent development effort in this style.
mircea_popescu: (not that this consideration has much practical value - outside of #trilema the community to do such thing doesn't exist, and so wasn't at the time an option)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's absolutely no way in hell anything in the us can compete with mittal.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course it can't compete, but it can Pretend!
mircea_popescu: it's funny, you know, after ~2500 years, steel went back home to pradesh
BingoBoingo: Seriously. Anyways the Granite City and Gary Mill are as described, opened enough to get machines warm.
BingoBoingo: Anything beyond waits for Trumpreich's credit card
BingoBoingo: But yes, steel seems to want to be made in India
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:52 ben_vulpes: r sounds like g to them or something
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: dunno if you heard but praxair and linde are merging
ben_vulpes: also nfi how this fits into your agricultural fanfic
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yeah i figured, it's why he has it now
ben_vulpes: biz-commentary-cum-agricultural-fanfiction is my favorite new genre of 2016
BingoBoingo: locally Praxair is known for exploding (literally) in the 1990s
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:49 phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"
BingoBoingo: Seriously, no one wants fucking bentgrass outside of a putting green
ben_vulpes:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-20#1586531 << i don't recall the proposed tests, actually. i mulled on this for a bit, am reluctant to try any sort of implementation until i finish the sqlator which a) is probably just sunk cost fallacy rearing its head, as i've done not much there but design the schema and prep a massive ingest job and b) has now been bumped down my todo list *again* in favor of vtronic
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 13:18 mircea_popescu: btw mod6 ben_vulpes trinque re the whole db/fs etc discussion, anyone recall the symlinks method / proposed tests ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:54 ben_vulpes: we digress
ben_vulpes: chiptune christmas, if you want to give any olds a migrane
a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:48 mircea_popescu: and there's symlinks if anyone wants to alias.
mircea_popescu: you'd end up with (as proposed there) a directory tree like 20 layers deep, with thousands of symlinks in each.
mircea_popescu: this way you don't actually have to ~index~ anything, if you wish to see where txn 1234567890 was included in a block, you go to /12/34/56/7890 which points to block x
☟︎☟︎ ben_vulpes: sure yeah, i remember the design pretty well
mircea_popescu: ok so a) gotta see if ext2 / ext4 CAN EVEN HOLD this many symlinks. like, at all.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and b) wtf happens once you load a drive with this nuttery.
mircea_popescu: afaik this is entirely unwalked ground, for all the foss bs about million eyes.
ben_vulpes: million flies, maybe. infinite symlinks, guaranteed not.
ben_vulpes: knowing nothing about fsen, i doubt even reiser can handle infinite symlinks.
ben_vulpes: because every open source anything i've ever touched has failed in precisely these sorts of extreme use cases
mircea_popescu: more importantly, why is this not ~exactly~ like saying "doh, of course you can't fill a drive with text files". dude what.
ben_vulpes: fill, sure. but an /infinite number/ thereof?
mircea_popescu: obv you can't store infinite data in finite hard drive, i came to terms with that
mircea_popescu: aaaanyway. mimi's in a fine position to try this out, attach old drive, write script to spit them out as per schema, see what occurs.
mircea_popescu: profile seek times, whatevs reasonable testage once the artefact's prepared.
ben_vulpes: surely a symlink wouldn't eat more than a few bytes now would it
mircea_popescu: in theory the above should be uberefficient sqling of a blockchain
ben_vulpes: that is a very liberal use of the acronym
mircea_popescu: in practice i'm in two waters about it, wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing catches fire.
ben_vulpes: dude cat and ls are not relational algebra
ben_vulpes: they're barely-compiling c tools in unix land
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i'm going to need that gas mask
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes oh im sorry, and your sql is written in what, malbolge ? my my aren't we speshul.
ben_vulpes: it's a very special haskellian snowflake that makes it so i don't have to think about that so nyah
mircea_popescu: barely-compiling c isn't good enough for us. oh, no, mommy i need my special asm skirt for THIS sql stuff!
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587972 << it's altogether unclear where did you get this "celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog" ; got a link or something ? seems more the case what was celebrated was its ability to put a wrench through imperial-style "scientific dialog" where "we dindu nuttin wrong".
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:59 phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:04 ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:09 mircea_popescu: but i can see why this is practically obnoxious.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:12 trinque: does it matter or not who signed?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:28 mod6: it sounds like everyone wants instead, a general overhaul to get to the 'wot variant press' instead, which would also fix the bug, because these vpatches, without a corresponding seal, would simply be ignored.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:32 mod6: you will, you must, have everything signed for it to show up in a pressable flow.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:34 mod6: the printable flow, is the same as the pressable flow.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:38 ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.
mircea_popescu: should it also show you the contents of your catpics folder, in case maybe you wanted to do some clicking ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:41 mod6: *sigh*
ben_vulpes: i expect it to be a royal pain to run down "which patch is missing sigs and breaking the flow from genesis to whatever"
ben_vulpes: without a flow that renders all patches. but fine
mircea_popescu: "i ended up with a woman in my bed i don't know." "how ?"
mircea_popescu: moreover if you say press kimkardassian and it says "failed - parishilton not found" then it is somewhat likely you forgot to sign blondy.
ben_vulpes: a few minutes of thinking while working on something related did clear this up for ben_vulpes
jurov: mircea_popescu: ext4 has 256Binodes, and "The target of a symbolic link will be stored in inode if the target string is less than 60 bytes long."
jurov: not sure how to shovel tx/block id into 60 bytes
jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
☟︎☟︎ jurov: and to give my 2c also on sql, while it's possible to use some portable standardized ansi sql subset, essential stuff like prepared queries need a database driver
☟︎ jurov: to introduce it into trb would, in my understanding, would make folks apoplectic
ben_vulpes: jurov: sql just falls out of "i shall make tmsr a block explorer", no more, no less.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo, pete_dushenski: in re graphite, "meaningfully stand behind their Q" perhaps?
ben_vulpes: mod6, asciilifeform, trinque, phf, mircea_popescu, and anyone else tracking vtronic gnashing: i dusted off and rewrote my cl V implementation. i'll follow up sometime tomorrow with more demo usage, and a more robust demonstration of wot-variant pressing.
http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/juTpM/?raw=true ben_vulpes: and yes, phf, when i am not exhausted i will also produce a genesis.
shinohai: neato ben_vulpes (on the lisp V)
davout: ben_vulpes: what's the sqlator?
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
trinque: ben_vulpes: wooo! I'll test that soon as I have coffee in hand.
shinohai passes trinque some coffee [~]D
mircea_popescu: "¿Sabes algo sobre Bitcoin?" "Se que es una especie de almacenamiento de dinero virtual , que por un dólar te dan 2 o 3 bitcoins o algo así , que básicamente se usa para comprar online y conseguir descuentos creo"
mircea_popescu: jurov in principle the address of a block is something like /44/4600 for the latest, so 2char dir + 4 char name
mircea_popescu: unless you want to store them by hash, in which case of course it's at most 65 chars, though because of difficulty i expect it should be made 40 or less
mircea_popescu: intuitively though i think blocks should be stored by height.
mircea_popescu: (this scheme guarantees you have at most 9999 files + 99 directories in any directory, which should hold even on windows.)
mircea_popescu: (while the store-by-hash txn scheme promises at most 256 directories OR 65536 files however in practice finding 65536 contiguous hash txn seems rather unlikely for a while yet)
mircea_popescu: shinohai chick's from like 2009, what do you want. she gets 2 or 3 btc for teh dollar.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588254 << can this be rewritten ? not that we're liable to have over 4bn txn at any point, but more of the principle of the thing "fuck you and your fucking magic numbers. if i run 64bit processors i'll run 64bit disks also motherfuckers!"
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:32 jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:35 jurov: and to give my 2c also on sql, while it's possible to use some portable standardized ansi sql subset, essential stuff like prepared queries need a database driver
mircea_popescu: (for the record, in practice the utility of prepared statements is often nil, and can be mostly captured through saying eg insert in x values y, values z rather than insert in x values y, insert in x values z. literally the whole benefit is that it compiles the part prior to values just once.
mircea_popescu: whatever, i guess you also get some injection protection. hurr.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:32 jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
trinque: the xfs limit is iirc defined as "how much disk space do you want to use for them"
trinque: that was not the claim at all; read the link
mircea_popescu: trinque ah, you can recompile with flag and it makes them 64 ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: looks like just a mount flag in fstab
shinohai has a Qntra on Chinese Gox when BingoBoingo awakens
trinque: definitely merits an experiment
mircea_popescu: also the issue of performance discussed by dave chinner is worthy of consideration (in trinque 's link)
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, it'd seem iris fs took over the disks meanwhile, who knew.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: Emin is pushing SGX like solutions. Seems everyone is infected with security theatre these days.
☟︎ trinque: Teechan is similar in design to the Lightning Network, save for one crucial differentiating factor: it leverages trusted execution environments (TEEs), that is, secure hardware components found in recent commodity processors such as the latest batch of Intel CPUs with Software Guard Extensions (SGX). << why the fuck even bother talking about this
thestringpuller: because whitewashing security is the only way to make people have trust these days?
mircea_popescu: lol this is like cinderella on monkey island already ; they keep bringing her all sorts of offerings. "boogers ?" "how about some feces ?" "dried feces from yesterday ?" "how about this corn kernel" "ok how about dead molluscs"
mircea_popescu: and in other argentine wtf, /me felt like putting some of the grandiose coffee available here to good use as coffee liqueur. sent girl to farmacy, where she bought 1 liter bottle of pure ethylic alcohol (98%). for like 6 bux. it's fabulous, tastes mildly of corn.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tbh, the reason a "constructed language" is readily forgotten is precisely the fact that it was constructed.
mircea_popescu: it's not a ~real~ language, but a very pathetic ersatz.
mircea_popescu: this is a stupid idea, not unlike "to make more compact human, without apendix, tonsils etc"
mircea_popescu: the ignorance of random john smiths with "progressive" delusions of self importance is scarcely a basis for existence.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a language is not a car nor an aeroplane. also engineers are not nearly as important ; or powerful as they like to pretend.
mircea_popescu: this can be trivially verified at any party of models/sluts where we invite a few engineers.
mircea_popescu: anyway. an airplane is very strictly not a bird without feathers ; there's no relation to a bird whatsoever, an airplane is a sort of bus not a sort of bird.
mircea_popescu: and engineered languages are exactly an island of dr moreau, a place that a) can't exist and b) whose only conceptual function is to show how fucking unbearably tedious old women are.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea why the postmenopausal worldview is even tolerated by actual engineers ; if i thought myself one i'd actually spend half my time having people a la "we'll make a language" whipped at the public stake
mircea_popescu: much like serious theologians in the 1000s did to idiot shamans.
phf: asciilifeform: so was Sanskrit, but at that point the line of "engineered" becomes very blured
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the "taught their children" : engineer-parents are no fucking better than engineers generally. and again the dr moreau reference rules supreme.
mircea_popescu: bear in mind that at the height of jewish idiocy (well, 2nd height, after being stupid in the 30s) manifested as israel socialism, uppity bitches pretended to "teach" their daughters to be naked in public because "no shame" because hey, old woman engineer thinks herself powerful enough to repress the male gaze.
mircea_popescu: the result was that 3rd generation girls reverted naturally to the coy behaviour, and the whole thing is today forgotten to the point you don't know about it
mircea_popescu: nor do the average old women who put forth their usual menopausal engineering pretense within my earshot and get treated to a large helping of stfu and make sandwiches.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok so then if you know, what are you on aboot!
mircea_popescu: eh, hiding behind that to salvage your pretense to engineering power is exactly how and why engineer kids are always the ones who don't see any cunt at slut parties.
mircea_popescu: anyway ; language reform sometimes works - but this because it was a language, not because it was reform. similarily to how cutting fruit trees works, but this is because they are trees, not because of the cutting. if you cut a broom whatever way it's not gonna make plums.
mircea_popescu: viable conlang is impossible for the reason woman-cut-from-marble is impossible : the substance uses lacks the capacity for the intended usage.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: language ~is a convention~, yes, but it is ~made from~ experience ; not consensus. people don't say "people" to denote people because ~they~ agreed to, but because people in the past ~have~.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform robots that speak natural languages ? where this, at mit ?
mircea_popescu: yes, eventually, once v is so old to have been forgotten like the original calculations for the pyramids, robots will perhaps have enough linguistic history that you could pretend idiomatic-c is no less a language than latin.
mircea_popescu: but the historical matrix of language (on which for instance myth is merely encoding artefact of lived experience) is the key ingredient to language - which is why romanian, a language spoken by a people for many years is much more powerful than enlgish, a language spoken by much more mongrels, but not so long really.
mircea_popescu: and your objection to "ukrainian" which is a lulz much like the "croatian" for instance doesn't come and isn't informed nor supported by "the poor quality of conventions employed". it's its lack of history that marks it, correctly, as nonsense.
mircea_popescu: yes, but they were idiots in another way : much like stalin's central planning committee (as implemented by the stuart court in london) can't beat the disorganised merchants of the low countries - just so five dorks with nary a clue can't compete with the combinatorial experimentation of the actual pigdin.
mircea_popescu: you will ~never provide a better solution to the waterflow via running equations than via running the fucking water.
phf: another take on this might be common lisp vs scheme. cl was standardized after the fact, existed and evolved on lisp machines. i'm looking at mit's cadr at the moment, and at a certain point you have maclisp, interlisp, zetalisp and "common lisp" all coexisting on the same machine, 10 years before the standard was written. scheme on the other hand was esparantoed for a purpose. the result is that as you move closer to speaking common
phf: lisp natively, you find all these nooks and crannies in the language that facilitate. nothing like that exists in scheme
phf: asciilifeform: we had this thread, and i had an answer for you that you didn't like
phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :)
☟︎ mircea_popescu: this otherwise defensible stand (at least in general) is why computer languages may never become more than shopping lists ; but then again fashion-behaviour (as seen in both languages and github/reddit) may have the last word.
phf: asciilifeform: last time i said that cons structures and sequences solve two entirely unrelated problems. cons specifically is a fundamental memory management abstraction for a von neumann machine (it solves the insert problem), so has its own set of operations that can predictable performance and behavioral characteristic.
phf: asciilifeform: elt is a sequence operator, nth is a cons cell operator. cons/car/cdr/nth/list etc. you can express nth in terms of car/cdr. you can't express elt in terms of any of those
phf: elt can potentially escape in the error clause to handle extensible sequences (and it does on SBCL)
phf: i'm not here to ~defend~ common lisp, i made an analogy that didn't stick
mircea_popescu: it's just not clear if it has much substance on the jaguar's side. but clearly when ~you~ look into its eyes, ~you~ perceive a soul there.
phf: well, asciilifeform's reaction to it is consistent to his perspective on conlangs, so i learned something
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:54 mircea_popescu: phf suppose you make an ai expert system to beat us at go. this gives you two practical options : either include 10gb worth of binary flags preset ; or else have us beat it at go for 10 centuries before it gets to where it plays like a freshly fucked 19yo.
mircea_popescu: natural language dictionaries are usually in the 100k symbols range ; however natural languages altogether are very large graphs, and i'd venture in the yottabyte range.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is that for most people, language is the only thought-amplifier they have. once you teach them a non-language they're very severely fucked.
mircea_popescu: wolf children of india also spoke "conlang" by this measure.
mircea_popescu: now this may well be a great use for one linguist-anthropologist's career. you wanna be it ?
mircea_popescu: you have a better shot at finding well written c-s implementation in the library.
mircea_popescu: but w/e, maybe my very dim view of "scholarship" in the field is entirely unwarranted, i'm just a meadhater and library contains "a river of gold", to quote obama.
phf: indian children still mostly speak conlang "by this measure". there's something like 15 ~official~ dialects, all of which have a significant post panini sanskrit incursion so that in say malayalam you have two different ~grammatical~ structures available to express the same thing, malay and sanskrit.
mircea_popescu hasn't fucked that many indian womenz has not much clue as to their native barking system.
mircea_popescu: well, india is a sort of china's africa. except the chinese were too lazy to properly fuck theirs.
phf: i still remember how my hired driver crossed the state line and had to speak a very broken english with the locals to ask for directions
mircea_popescu: but fwiw, serbian chick stands out in my mind, she was 19, her poor head had just come out of 12 years of which 6 were spent doing cyrilics and the other 6 doing ~BOTH~ latin and cyrillic and who genuinely thought that you know, this is BETTER EDUCATION!! because where other people got one, she got both!!1
mircea_popescu: on the other hand i could readily notice the havoc this had wrought upon her poor brain.
phf: asciilifeform: actually Esperanto was big in su. it was not an anathema to say that in the communist future the peoples of the word are going to speak not just Russian, but also some other, better, universal language. certainly interstellar trade would need something better. or when you talk to machines.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, speaking of misfortunate subhumans : anyone care to guess the most frequent answer my bot gets ? it's "most frequent" in the sense that the next-frequent is like 2 std deviations rarer. hint : it's a question.
mircea_popescu: hahaha. this ~has not yet appeared~. no mention. 0. it simply does not occur.
mircea_popescu: the boys are shockingly shy, it surprised me. 10 years ago used to be about 100x more virulent.
mircea_popescu: yeah. but it made me smile an ancient smile, because it is "who are you".
mircea_popescu: the republic is undefeatable ; the empire is indefensible.
mircea_popescu: ah whatevs. dude what a fucking tabloid this nytimes is. no, us didn't "blacklist" anything.
phf: word on the street, that u.s. alibaba office is hiring like crazy, and that the salaries are so high, microsoft/amazon/apple no longer attempt to match compensation in the event of the poaching. so "blacklist"
BingoBoingo: OMG, at least half of all US small business now is private labeling shit from alibaba and reselling!
mircea_popescu: making us a sort of argentina with slightly better developed oil expoitation.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 17:46 phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :)
a111: Logged on 2014-10-23 04:41 asciilifeform: no hidden formats
a111: Logged on 2015-04-03 21:41 asciilifeform: trinque: when you use a version control apparatus, it is very easy to produce patches that cannot be applied using your mind
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 03:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he still has a point. a) we're careening dangerously towards -dev levels and b) people can't fucking follow wtf is on that list.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 04:42 asciilifeform: also the continuity of identity. if, for example, my patches at some point go from tiny to elephantine, from single-purpose to 'omnibus', from deadly-simple to 'wtf is that' - folks are to presume that i have been finally killed and key is in hands of hitler. and should then rate accordingly.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 13:38 mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:00 mircea_popescu: there's no reason for this to take a week to do.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:11 mircea_popescu: how would this b-a versioning system work ?
a111: Logged on 2015-08-08 04:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in somewhat related nyooz, i've been experimenting with what for now i call 'v' - a very dumb 'versioner' that i've been writing, which eats solely 0) pgp keys 1) patches 2) signatures for same, many-to-many mapping of (2) to (1)
a111: Logged on 2015-09-12 20:28 mircea_popescu: which... you know, i slept on this, and it occurs to me that ACTUAL MATHEMATICS might be the perfect thing to implement over V.
mircea_popescu: phf ah, yes, but note that the item contemplated there is specifically not discussion ; but its results.
mircea_popescu: but yah, seems v was born principally out of a discussion on august 5th
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 14:46 mircea_popescu: you could technically run a chan off v.
mircea_popescu: software design as god intended. FIRST you do by hand ; THEN you automate the parts worth automating.
phf: but the reason i made those statements yesterday is because i think that like saying things in log is an opportunity to be corrected, so does posting a vpatch, it could be a learning experience. instead the mindset seems to be
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-20#1411214 ☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-02-20 22:45 phf: "i, ordained computron mircea lifeform, in the year of our republic 1932, having devoted three months to the verification of checksums, with my heart pure and my press clean, sit down to transcribe vee patch ascii_limits_hack, signed by the illustrious asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes and all saints."
mircea_popescu: phf you don't have to post a snippet of code as ~vpatch~. can just pastebin it also
mircea_popescu: you ~can~ after all rebase a patch ; not just because of the patch, but also because of the sig.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ie, item X enters life signed by "doubful matter key Z" and then a year later is signed by "ok this is it key Z" and makes it to the stable press
mircea_popescu: can release patch today under your text sig ; rebase it later with your main sig.
phf: mircea_popescu: correction in this case can come in a form of another vpatch either by original author after the discussion or by anyone who wants to make annotations, etc. in which case the dialog becomes valuable on its own, because it preserves the differences that have didactic value
mircea_popescu: you can literally come up with an idea for a thing while travelling ; go to internet cafe ; spin up gpg to make you a new key while you bash it down ; then sign the patch with that key which you don't even bother taking from there.
mircea_popescu: if it's any good, you can always sign it later as phf.
mircea_popescu: phf yes, in principle. in practice i expect "centralizing" rebasing vpatches to happen all the time to prune trees of their noncontroversial joints.
mircea_popescu: i'm just saying - there's nothing lost here. can emulate naked pastebin in v style np.
phf: i guess the multiple keys idea was already introduced in gossipd (in the original spec i suspect it was a solution to "no automatic RSA-ing" problem)
a111: Logged on 2015-08-28 03:13 asciilifeform: thing does exactly three basic kinds of thing - verifies sigs; determines what subcoagulations of spittle in the spittoon are in fact in single strands; and permits operator to select individual strands, and cut'em (by whatever criteria, including signatories or combinations thereof)
phf: asciilifeform: these are basically three different solutions to the same problem of "how to allow more than one kind of vpatch". yours is mechanical, mine is an attempt to expand the mythos and mp's is cutting the gordian knot
☟︎ mircea_popescu: if patches are signed by dead people only, they don't belong in presses
mircea_popescu: there;s no intention involved in or supported by vtronics
mircea_popescu: nobody forces you to even consider patches signed by people out of your wot.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have a perfectly serviceable way to harden keys for the record. it's just not ~standardized~, and it's unclear it should be.
mircea_popescu: universality and hardness are orthogonal, how hard a diamond is as a standard of realistic hardness has entirely nothing to do with how many cunts wear one around their whatever appendage.
mircea_popescu: yes, once you populate a db with the keyids of "known mp's subservient keys" you can
mircea_popescu: and there's no "up to good" or "no good" directionality of intent involved here. he is up to nonsense, because meaning and universality are mutually exclusive.
mod6: So I have made a couple small changes to my V99995, and have put together an output trace of what we were seeing with V99995 and what we now see with the changes made in a possible V99994 version. Review of this would be nice to validate that the behavior is correct:
http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt mircea_popescu: automated vtronics is like having cat "read" balzac for you.
mircea_popescu: if you have a collection of keys you're - for whatever reason, maybe they're all me, maybe they're my harem, maybe they're all the people from russia, whatever - interested in, yes you can build the set of all pathes they signed.
mircea_popescu: but ~making that list~ is entirely unmachineable ; and me being very careful not to typo doesn't help
ben_vulpes: can you cook a diff between v9..5 and v9..4 ?
mod6: sure, but i'll remain unsigned until testing.
mircea_popescu: (which is what all ~ALL~ standardization EVER does - makes it so you're really careful not to typo. it can't resolve problems of the other nature, just this.)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 18:49 mircea_popescu: you ~can~ after all rebase a patch ; not just because of the patch, but also because of the sig.
mircea_popescu: reseal = the act of signing a patch with your own key.
ben_vulpes: whence 're', though. that other key was 'derpderp ben_vulpes', not 'foundation chair ben_vulpes'
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes which of the trb genesis seals are seal and which reseal ?
ben_vulpes: reseal, what is this. signed same matter again?
ben_vulpes: rebase/regrind to move the patch in the tree and seal to...seal.
phf: i feel like there was a neat article about the history of seals somewhere inthe logs, but i can't find it
phf: i think it might've been by the same guy who did "history of timekeeping" or somesuch that was briefly trashed hmm
phf: no no different article
mircea_popescu reads recipes for coffee liqueur on web. INSTANT COFFEE! they... USE WATER! holy shit...
phf: it sort traced western history from the perspective of time measurement. "and then they had a city clock to synchronize everyone"
phf: ah, right that's the guy
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : if you google bitcoin authors you get : Andreas Antonopoulos, Gavin Andresen, Adam Back, Brian Behlendorf, Wences Casares, Hal Finney, Satoshi Nakamoto, Charlie Shrem.
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, seems down
phf: it must've been down for a while, because wikipedia uses archive.is to link to his homepage
phf: yeah, i remember mp scoffing at "a measure of sacrifice" few months ago
mircea_popescu: pity we didn't have the bot archival thing earlier huh.
phf: pitty we didn't have it from the beginning. all those beautiful tumblr pictures lost forever
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 858.95, vol: 12335.15818543 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 843.9, vol: 8349.45358 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 859.65, vol: 17134.15426123 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 874.962365, vol: 5619669.47630000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 856.84, vol: 2768.47470403 | Volume-weighted last average: 874.826433963
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: please to s/being/behind in pencil piece as per ben_vulpes' appreciated astutery.
pete_dushenski: i've heard of burning trees and i've heard of burning litres... but putting them together results in little more than a vw hippie wagon in my head.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: crazily enough, pingbacks work when issued from my own wp instance
ben_vulpes: do let me know if you find anything odd about it
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: that genesis is mildly diddled from the earlier paste
ben_vulpes: and yes, thing has sharp edges, betrays exit codes for some unix processes
ben_vulpes: very much a harem-v. but -- works for me.
ben_vulpes: i did mistake that to mean "vs the public is pointed to as example vs. vs whose operations are private to the owner"
☟︎ Framedragger: (note, slow start, spoiler: derision revealed after premises presented)
Framedragger: (mp suggested to invite him over, and here i am childishly fearing that he'll hate this place, mp will decide that he's not mp-complete/ready, and that's gonna be that. i know, sad.)
☟︎ ben_vulpes: what'd the repulic accrete this year, 2 new faces?
jhvh1: asciilifeform: I have not seen vc.
a111: 2016-06-12 <vc> Framedragger: I'm cool with port scans, neither me nor my parent host cares
phf: other bot only recalls anyone it saw since it started running, where's a111 is looking at logs