61 entries in 0.664s
a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 12:19 spyked:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737923 <-- also, spyked's adalisp is missing more fundamental things, such as closures. it's an early prototype, barely usable, but > 0. interning is of course considered, but not added yet. anyway, phf, consider the following point: built-in symbols (car, cons, etc.) still have to point *somewhere*, and that somewhere must not be addressed in a
C-machine style! symbols should point to Lisp memory (via
mircea_popescu: anyway, let's restate : "since you're stuck with a c library anyway as long as you're on
c-machine, at the very least to do init and end ; and since musl is not that terrible and only links what you use anyway ; just use it and be done with the headache -- the alternative is bloating ada with nonsense"
phf: the notion of "static content" is a
c-machine-ism
ben_vulpes: i've never been burdened with the "This Is How Things Are" of the
c-machine a111: Logged on 2017-12-10 14:56 phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-10#1749235 << nobody has solved the bootstrapping problem. every time you touch a system that's in any way attempts to not be a
c-machine you run into that issue
a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 12:19 spyked:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737923 <-- also, spyked's adalisp is missing more fundamental things, such as closures. it's an early prototype, barely usable, but > 0. interning is of course considered, but not added yet. anyway, phf, consider the following point: built-in symbols (car, cons, etc.) still have to point *somewhere*, and that somewhere must not be addressed in a
C-machine style! symbols should point to Lisp memory (via
spyked:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737923 <-- also, spyked's adalisp is missing more fundamental things, such as closures. it's an early prototype, barely usable, but > 0. interning is of course considered, but not added yet. anyway, phf, consider the following point: built-in symbols (car, cons, etc.) still have to point *somewhere*, and that somewhere must not be addressed in a
C-machine style! symbols should point to Lisp memory (via
☝︎☟︎☟︎ phf:
c-machine assembly level has a certain shape to it. when you write int foo { bar(); } an assembly of a certain pattern gets spit out
phf: well,
c-machine assembly level is not particularly good, but it's not guaranteed to be consisten either
trinque: openbsd's
httpd doesn't look like that much src to read, while we're still in
c-machine hell.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:11 asciilifeform: the
c-machine is an idiot foundation, which inevitably breeds the pests we are familiar with.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:23 asciilifeform: the
c-machine pointer mechanism, and its non-boundchecked array access in general, is quite similar to mains wiring prior to the invention of the fuse, where mains socket has nfi that it oughtn't source 300 amps and melt itself, igniting the entire wall
a111: Logged on 2016-07-17 17:20 asciilifeform: anywhere other than ~equator, a block of flats without a boiler, plumbing, and radiators, is quite analogous to the
c-machine PeterL: aha, so if you ditch
c-machine then you could do better?
ascii_field: 'let's run same old idiot
c-machine but with sprinkle of haskell on top for flavour'
ascii_field: likewise, 'mitigations' which ultimately prolong the agony of c/c++/
c-machine - are works of evil.
decimation: but that would be a nightmare of
c-machine trickery
decimation: in fact, to even seriously consider writing software for which you are liable is to instantly consider dumping the existing
c-machine decimation: dynamic libraries are the depressing result of the
c-machine's sad attempt to have a global namespace
ascii_field: selling turd where
c-machine abstraction stack continuously leaks into the supposed 'lisp' - is pure sc4mz4tr0nix
decimation: this is probably the most rational approach toward the modern
c-machine decimation:
c-machine implementation of characters is enraging
decimation: I'm not sure how any
c-machine can really be 'formally verified'
decimation: the
c-machine is a mistake, but ganging multiple c-machines was an even bigger mistake
decimation: derping on
c-machine is essentially free
gabriel_laddel: you're claim is that the problem with lisp is that it's not built for the
c-machine. my point is that even on c-machines it's still better than anything else out there.
gabriel_laddel: decimation: re, the problem with lisp... this isn't CL's problem, and not a real problem anyway. Compare to writing ~ALGOL on
c-machine.
decimation: the problem with lisp is that it is alient to the modern
c-machine, especially the multi-core variety
mircea_popescu: in other words, back to the topic : i think the people arguing that c is just the way to talk to the
c-machine, aka von neumann machine have it wrong - c is just the way average people abstract. fortunately that fit into an already existing machine, but if it hadn't it'd have been forcibly fit anyway.
decimation: inevitably there's going to be some usg 'dept of
c-machine hygiene'
decimation: asciilifeform: what kind of bell must be rung to convince people that 'reviewing' the monstrous pile of C code (on the
C-machine) modern software uses is not just difficult - it's impossible
decimation: asciilifeform: do mix Mr Yarvin's metaphor - what would "Haakon the Fairhaired" do about computers today? would he pointlessly toil with
c-machine kazoo or would he bide his time and work on something unique?
decimation:
http://fish2.com/ipmi/river.pdf << problem: c-machines are buggy and crash all the time ... solution: glue another
c-machine on top of the
c-machine ... problem: hardware vendors have crap security on new
c-machine ... and you can't examine the firmware