log
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thestringpuller: lol my mom is watching netflix on the wifi
thestringpuller: its funny how the opiate of the masses never really changes. it just finds more concentrated forms. :\ depressing.
thestringpuller goes back to reading comic books
adlai: dude wtf, xey're called "grafic novels" now
thestringpuller: >:( I get serial comics. I'm subscribed to 30 something titles per month atm.
adlai: serialization is how most (?) novels were published for ~ever. strikes me as a fairer economic arrangement than premium+royalties but i'm probably just a clueless outsider
thestringpuller: this graphic novel mania the weee-uh-boos set in motion is ridiculous.
thestringpuller: cuz really a monthly series should be like an episode of tv
adlai grew up on tintin, probably the reason for his strong inoculation against political correctedness
adlai: the best thing about tintin is that nobody is around to dilute the syrup (and no, the movies don't count)
thestringpuller: adlai: but royalties are where all the sweet money is in comics! if a comic, does really well, the license holders get a cut of pretty much everything spawned from the franchise.
adlai: call me when the kids are playing Spiderman Go
thestringpuller: LOL. 4 srs tho. spider-man is a pretty good example. why do you think sony sunk money into a 2nd spiderman trilogy (which became a disaster)? they wanted to keep the movie rights.
mircea_popescu: adlai : tell you what, put whatever does the equivalent of php up, hit it with 10loads/second for half hour and see how hairy a shirt it is.
adlai: mircea_popescu: sbcl dies on too many (for all i know, just two, in the precisely bad timing) ~outgoing~ queries
mircea_popescu: does talk-to-db count as outgoing ?
adlai: maybe? i get this from too many talk-to-exchange (and once from too many talk-to-freenode, with handrolled irc code that didn't rate limit...)
adlai: i never got this when dealing with mpex, but mpex moves slowly enough that parallel queries weren't a concern
adlai: a db on another box would probably count, unless "what color are your packets"?
ben_vulpes: hours later, bitcoind still pegged
ben_vulpes: 12.82 day uptime. let's try again!
ben_vulpes: heh i wonder if the thing will even listen to shutdown commands.
mircea_popescu: it mostly does, albeit very slowly
ben_vulpes: i'm in no rush, happy to run the hourglass out.
mircea_popescu: large part of it is berkley db being incredibly slow to put itself in a sane state.
ben_vulpes: does this hold when it's not even listening to rpc commands?
mircea_popescu: bdb holds the blockchain and the wallet ; rpc doesn't much enter into it
asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/ident?v=asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option&_i=fShutdown
asciilifeform: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#15 << and holy fuck adlai what sbcl were you using, and for what.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-17: [00:40:56] <adlai> mircea_popescu: sbcl dies on too many (for all i know, just two, in the precisely bad timing) ~outgoing~ queries
asciilifeform: i had it drive 20kg of stainless steel turning on a dime, for hours on end, real-time, and experienced no such nonsense.
asciilifeform: and it was plugged into a bank of tcp to serial (yes) converters, even.
asciilifeform: adlai: did you ffi out something other than merely the socket handling ?
asciilifeform: or was this post-poettering sbcl
asciilifeform: or wat.
adlai: asciilifeform: i suspect the culprit is the one CL lib of such quality that it has a plus in its name
adlai: either that, or merely the socket handling.
asciilifeform: unless folks ~publish~ the magical bug-inducers, i am inclined to agree with the old iddish proverb
asciilifeform: about the dancer.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if you read the code, you will notice that trb is, at most times of 'very very busy bee', quite unready to react to rpc command because one of the global locks is engaged.
asciilifeform: fwiw i pretty much always kill -9 it.
asciilifeform: if the node dies, i can bake another.
adlai: (format () "~{~A~^ ~}" (mapcar 'funcall '(lisp-implementation-type lisp-implementation-version machine-type))) => "SBCL 1.2.4.debian X86-64"
asciilifeform: it takes, what, all of 10 or so hrs, pumping via a direct link
adlai: first happened ~2 yrs ago, last happened ~2 weeks ago.
asciilifeform: adlai: i dun think i've ever used anything above 1
adlai: magical bug inducer = scalpl running against the usual suspects of shitcoinistan
asciilifeform: sounds like it's just throwing packets
asciilifeform: not even, as in phf's case, calling exotic gpg-via-ffi crapola
adlai: well, it is always throwing ssl packets, so it could also be that (this is the aforementioned plus-sized library)
asciilifeform: ewww does your thing call out to openssl?!
adlai: cl+ssl is ffi to openssl
asciilifeform: ~hlrph~
asciilifeform: vomitronic.
adlai: you have to use ssl with all exchanges (except for one, guess which)
adlai misses the days of scalping without competition
asciilifeform: anyway i won't be debugging folks' seeeekrit codez over whispers and winks.
asciilifeform: whether scalpl or mpb.
adlai: a) nobody asked you to debug b) it's not seeeekrit, i "backup" on github
asciilifeform: link?
adlai: https://github.com/adlai/scalpl
adlai: (the most recent bits aren't pushed yet, but theyr'e not relevant to this bug)
adlai: note that this code is written with no brains other than my own in mind
adlai: it's almost "job security"; lets me publish my cake while preventing anybody else from eating it. whether i can eat it too (ie, debug this a decade after writing it) remains to be seen.
asciilifeform: well from adlai's description in earlier thread, it sounds as if 'the time' had already come
asciilifeform: when the thing barfs randomly, and underperforms in unpredictable ways.
adlai: time for... 'ownership' of sbcl?
adlai: or at least, freezing an old version
adlai thinks out loud: 'crystallising' might be a better metaphor than 'freezing', since the purpose isn't only to reduce code temperature, but also to remove impurities as they emerge
adlai: fwiw, whenever i fantasized about owning a lisp compiler, the imagined object went one step further than sbcl, and didn't depend on a C compiler for the 'kernel', but rather shat ELF objects (or whatever other format) from lisp
adlai: (SBCL, contrary to popular mythos, is not 'self hosting')
asciilifeform: adlai: i think everybody knows this
asciilifeform: so i have nfi what mythos yer thinking of
asciilifeform: it demands a gcc for pass1
asciilifeform: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#61 << conspicuously absent are whatever mechanisms used for moving coin between the arenas
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-17: [02:09:58] <adlai> https://github.com/adlai/scalpl
asciilifeform: or is this not a thing yet
asciilifeform: how the hell does it arbitrage ?
adlai: everybody who's paid attention. cue internal-mp: "bipeds who don't pay attention are Not People"
adlai: how the hell would you arbitrage the asset formerly known as S.MPOE, other than across time?
adlai: the fact that usd (and other assorted shitcoins) are traded across multiple exchanges is merely an additional profit vector for future implementation... lone wolf projects lope one leap at a time
adlai: (in case it's unclear, "time-arbitrage" is not a risk-free enterprise)
asciilifeform: well suppose robot finds that btce is falling through the floor
asciilifeform: how does it withdraw the coin, to put elsewhere
adlai: it doesn't.
asciilifeform: or does it simply ring a bell.
adlai: but neither does a lens notice that a cork slice looks like a grid from close up
trinque: wtf is this myth where sbcl is slow
asciilifeform: so the thing isn't really automatic, but semi-?
adlai: well that's a bad analogy, cross-exchange arbitrage is entirely possible programmatically, just not yet implemented
asciilifeform: trinque: nfi where, it is the fastest cl i've personally used, hands-down (hand-massaged certain items in it to beat the shit out of cpp original, even)
trinque: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2192629
asciilifeform: read moar shitcombinator.
trinque: links therein...
trinque: https://lbolla.wordpress.com/2010/12/05/sbcl-quicker-than-c/
adlai: "time-arbitrage" (ie, buy-low-sell-high-and-hope-the-noise-continues) is entirely automatic (up to sane/profitable configuration), cross-exchange arbitrage is entirely unsupported. scalpl has no understanding of the fact that different markets on different exchanges might involve the same asset.
adlai: it DOES know that different markets on the same exchange could overlap, so a lower fruit is "triangular arbitrage" (eg, simultaneously trading btcusd, atcusd, and btcatc)
asciilifeform: trinque: the title of the article is retarded.
asciilifeform: is a shoe quicker than a blade of grass ?
asciilifeform: purple quicker than three ?
adlai: trinque: maybe you're confusing the slowness of compilation with that of execution? python is a very slow compiler.
trinque: the guy just added optimization flags to a debian benchmark
asciilifeform: adlai: presumably you are speaking of the older python ?
trinque: you're meant to y'know, click the links in pages
asciilifeform: (the compiler in sbcl)
trinque: adlai: I'm not confusing shit
adlai: asciilifeform: oh they released another one? better call the snake handlers.
trinque: I have shipped plenty of code that runs on sbcl.
adlai: oh there are links in the links, and idiots spreading false myths (as opposed to the other kind)
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz/readers - yes, the compiler of sbcl was in fact called 'python'... quite a bit prior to the scripting language )
adlai: strictly speaking isn't this cmucl's compiler?
asciilifeform: adlai: originally
asciilifeform: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3244575386963745@naggum.no.html << obligatory bathtub rocket
trinque: the guy whose resignation I linked forked it from cmucl and rewrote it in lisp
adlai: trinque: which link?
adlai: oh that link. william newman.
trinque mutters newman
adlai: python was always written in lisp. s/cmu/sb/ consisted of rewriting the bootstrapping logic.
adlai: http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/sbcl-0.0 << worth a read for anybody with even the most passing of interests in archaeology
mircea_popescu didn't click on newman link, because meh, google shit. but now since came up again, decided to check it out. went to archive.is - not there.
mircea_popescu: "This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference. Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100."
mircea_popescu: pshh.
trinque: adlai's link is in there, but from jun 2012
trinque: did not get updated
trinque: Therefore, under this system there should be no need to resort to hairy hacking when fundamental internal structures are to be changed, or to "compile it with itself a few times until things settle down". << what the fuck?
trinque: what system compiled itself "until things settle"
adlai: cmucl
mircea_popescu: i dunno, and i can't be arsed to find out. everyone involved sounds exactly like a bunch of whiny fucktards with clitorii.
asciilifeform: the sleep of fits-in-head breeds monsters.
adlai: this is funny: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/cmucl-build/00_README but this is funnier: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/crosscompile.html
asciilifeform: ## Recompiling CMUCL is not an exact science... ##
asciilifeform: ## [Peter Van Eynde, September 1998] ##
asciilifeform: ^ do we need to read past this ?
adlai: yeah, click the second link
asciilifeform: ahahahaha
mircea_popescu: to counterbalance the oestrogen overload, here's some harm : "Without boasting, I can tell you that, when Volodya struck me across the ear and spat in my face, I really got him, so that he won't forget it. It was only after that that I hit him with his primus and it was evening when I hit him with the iron. So he didn't die straight away by any means. This doesn't prove that I cut his leg off as early as the afternoon. He was
mircea_popescu: still alive then. Whereas Andryusha I killed simply from inertia, and I can't hold myself responsible for that. Why did Andryusha and Yelizaveta Antonovna fall into my hands anyway? They had no business springing out from behind the door. I am being accused of bloodthirstiness; they say I drank blood, but that is not true: I licked up the pools of blood and stains -- it is a man's natural urge to wipe out the traces of even
mircea_popescu: the most trivial of crimes. And also I did not rape Yelizaveta Antonovna. In the first place, she was no longer a virgin; and secondly I was having dealings with a corpse, so she has no cause for complaint. What about the fact that she just happened to have to give birth? Well, I did pull out the infant. The fact that he was not long for this world anyway, well that's really not my fault. I didn't tear his head off; it was hi
asciilifeform: no wonder this thing was shot in the head and left to die in a shallow grave.
mircea_popescu: s thin neck that did that. He was simply not created for this life. It's true that I stomped their dog to a pulp around the floor, but it's really cynical to accuse me of murdering the dog when in the immediate vicinity, it might be said, three human lives had been obliterated. The infant I don't count. Well, all right then, in all this (I can agree with you) it is possible to discern a degree of severity on my part. But to c
mircea_popescu: onsider it a crime that I squatted down and defecated on my victims -- that is really, if you'll excuse me, absurd. Defecation is an urge of nature and consequently can in no sense be criminal. All things considered, I do understand the misgivings of my defence counsel, but all the same I am hoping for a complete acquittal."
asciilifeform: lel didn't oglaf do a special on this one
mircea_popescu: possibly.
asciilifeform: http://oglaf.com/insummary <<
mircea_popescu: aha
adlai: "I was having dealings with a corpse, so she has no cause for complaint." << excellent argument for gutting cmucl rather than sbcl, unless you get off on the screams
trinque already pulled up the tinyscheme source, will read as he drinks wine
asciilifeform: adlai: i think all of the gentlemen present 'get off on the screams', yes
mircea_popescu: note also the implied (and ancient) notion that only virgins may be raped.
asciilifeform: trinque: i recommend to pull up mine, rather than the heathen one, but the difference is not large
trinque: alrighty.
adlai also suspects that "gutting cmucl" would involve redoing so much of newman's work that it's much lazier to just gut an old version of sbcl
asciilifeform: trinque: also it isn't a given that tinyscheme is necessarily the best starting point for implementing a civilized scheme
mircea_popescu: wtf is this c code to glue lisp compiled lisp together. good god.
asciilifeform: the empty sheet of paper + the standard is a good alternative.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it runs on a unix, there'll be glue. by the pound.
mircea_popescu: why pretend then. just have a honest interpreter written in c sit down and take your repl.
trinque: clisp
asciilifeform: other thing, trinque, is that interpreters won't be breaking any speed records.
adlai: incidentally, on a slightly related topic: a friend has taken me up on my (foolish, drunken) offer to help teach him programming. i'm tempted to start with a "sheet of paper + mccarthy" approach, since he's yet unspoiled by algol; has anybody tried teaching in this manner?
asciilifeform: adlai: yes.
asciilifeform: it only works in my experience on gurlz
adlai: (the fallback is http://eloquentjavascript.net/ which is written by a lisper and contains numerous inline repls)
asciilifeform: it won't work on someone you aren't fucking, there will not be the necessary patience.
mircea_popescu: or knuth.
adlai: lol
trinque: hm, mircea_popescu has me wanting to read clisp now
BingoBoingo: <adlai> incidentally, on a slightly related topic: a friend has taken me up on my (foolish, drunken) offer to help teach him programming. i'm tempted to start with a "sheet of paper + mccarthy" approach, since he's yet unspoiled by algol; has anybody tried teaching in this manner? << Don't skip to 12 without working the other steps. Only 13 can be skipped to.
trinque: there is an honesty to not doing this bootstrapping madness while a lisp OS is absent
mircea_popescu: trinque a perhaps even workable alternative would be, adalisp.
asciilifeform: adlai: 'little schemer' by sussman. but again i cannot recommend doing this to just 'friend'
BingoBoingo: ^ Hence necessity of 13th step
mircea_popescu: "7) Paranoid folks like to recompile just again, to be sure that the new system has no artifact from the old running Lisp. These instructions also build the very-optional parts like CLX at this stage. If you want to do that, activate the for loop near the end." << i'm not sure paranoid is the word here.
mircea_popescu: seriously, the vague is getting ridiculous. "artefacts" ?
trinque: asciilifeform: thunked a lady with both that and sicp once, and she actually read them
mircea_popescu: why not just build a fucking tool to spot "artefacts"
mircea_popescu: o, wait...
adlai: mircea_popescu: that tool is called "recompile once more, just to be safe"
mircea_popescu: what is this, distillation ?
mircea_popescu: buncha vocational drunks.
adlai: precisely, as opposed to crystallization
BingoBoingo: <trinque> asciilifeform: thunked a lady with both that and sicp once, and she actually read them << This is the difference. The fucking.
trinque: pls moar metaphor, I am not drunk yet
trinque pours another glass
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would anyone want to run anything produced in this manner.
adlai: make sure to avoid the methanol!
adlai: because the fractional still hasn't been invented yet
trinque: BingoBoingo: aha, in fact there was a thread where mircea_popescu explained that y'know, you teach the women things
trinque: and my heathen brain was astonished
asciilifeform: 'When people who can’t think logically design large systems, those systems become incomprehensible. And we start thinking of them as biological systems.' -- from lamport's 'The Future of Computing: Logic or Biology' (2003)
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu , nobody wants this ! any more than they 'want' ringworm.
asciilifeform: it just drops on'em
mircea_popescu: trinque fancy that, you had to have someone tell you! nature teaches by example, you stick more data into woman each time than you ever did into all machines you ever touched. yet...
asciilifeform: for being a bunch of retarded pygmies
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/02prx/?raw=true << whole lamport thing , as found in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=41, de-pdfulated
asciilifeform: pertinent.
mircea_popescu: ./lisp -core lisp.clcore, one line after they misspelled it as losp.clore is really fucking endearing, too.
trinque: the thing may very well be 10 systemd cycles in, given its age
mircea_popescu: so fucking idiotic, im bailing.
mircea_popescu: how can you lot put up with these idiots ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't speak for others, but i've never even ~heard~ of any of these folk, nor read their spew, until this year.
BingoBoingo: http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/09/16/george-stephanopoulos-pepe-frog-well-known-symbol-white-supremacist-movement/ << “You had an Instagram post last week that included Pepe the Frog, which is now a well-known symbol of the white supremacist movement,”
adlai: "verification is economically feasible only in a small number of applications???mainly, for fairly small programs that perform lifecritical functions. Verification techniques are being used successfully to help debug programs, at Microsoft and elsewhere" << please, tell me more about these small, lifecriticial, microsoft applications...
asciilifeform: adlai: you do know what happened to lamport, right ?
mircea_popescu: that are lifecritical.
adlai: not without googling, no.
asciilifeform: adlai: he got 'tenured' at one of those prestige farms where usg (via various muppetronics) pays eminent old folk to avoid being dangerous
asciilifeform: in this case, 'microshit research'
asciilifeform: believe or not, even xerox parc still exists. in this mode.
asciilifeform: even bell labs.
asciilifeform: big morgues, where they parked the lamports.
trinque: lamports parked themselves
asciilifeform: heemeyer-style
asciilifeform: ditch dug around'em, now welcome to your 'island' .
mircea_popescu: kinda why old people are not interesting.
adlai: yeah i doubt anybody forced him to sign; i suspect anybody who wasn't sufficiently dangerous for enough decades, eventually gets tired of poor impotence, and starts sucking the cock that slapped them
asciilifeform: though i knew an old dude who picked poverty and hunger over that new 'bell labs.'
mircea_popescu: and did he do anything ?
asciilifeform: went back to old trade he knew from su.
asciilifeform: teaching physics to collegiate imbeciles.
asciilifeform: complete with the obligatory weary dr. brin face.
mircea_popescu: well... so he... saved the usg some bucks, still didn't do anything. hero of soviets, medal.
mircea_popescu: if you're not going to do anything anyway, might as well take the lab.
adlai: asciilifeform & trinque : thank you for the suggestions. i'm meeting the guy tomorrow for his 2nd lession, i'll let him choose
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the mouse that got out of your bottle probably did not 'do anything' also.
asciilifeform: just went around, mousin', for rest of his days.
mircea_popescu: kinda why i released it, rather than you know, eating it.
mircea_popescu: adlai except their suggestions were essentially "drop the guy, pick up some chicks"
adlai: mircea_popescu: take which lab? teaching physics doesn't involve ~doing~ lab work, only grading it
asciilifeform: ( lol, i'm not the only one who was ever tempted to eat'em ?!! )
mircea_popescu: i was never tempted to eat them, no.
mircea_popescu: nor were they ever tempted to do anything.
mircea_popescu bbl
adlai: fwiw, the last chick i tried to teach lisp, lost patience for lisp ~before~ she lost patience for [my] cock
asciilifeform: adlai: we were discussing a dude who quit bell labs when it turned into lucent and 'well-managed' etc.
adlai makes the "stop waiting tables and learn to program" offer to ~all his friends, once he gets drunk enough
trinque: meh, chick I taught lisp said "cool, I know what a computer is now, sorta" and went back to being a chef
trinque: isn't for everyone
asciilifeform: adlai: do you actually think that you are doing them a favour thereby ?
adlai: since none yet have reached the point of not needing to wait tables - insufficient data for meaningful answer.
asciilifeform: i'm sure they will 'thank' adlai when they instead have to program in a salt mine.
adlai: my pitch has always been "look at me, i worked in the salt mine for less than a year and now live off my savings"
adlai: anybody i know well enough to receive the pitch, knows me well enough to know ~why~ i no longer mine
trinque: I have the decency not to goad my friends into joining an industry in a dark age, tyvm
trinque: bad enough I stuck my dick in this crazy
adlai: living off the savings would have more to do with bitcoin if i were less of an idiot, and had bought less at $1k and more at $10; but then i'd be living off the military discharge bonus, and wouldn't have mined to begin with
adlai: eh i try to keep the pitch minimal, and avoid repeating it (unless too drunk to remember the last one). one guy got repeated pitches but that's only because we lived together and he kept remarking on how i "make money by typing"
adlai: i'm not sure the 'dark age' is limited to this industry, it seems pretty global
trinque: that's fair.
adlai doesn't know anybody who likes their job enough to work more than they need, with the possible exception of his mom - who teaches yoga.
trinque: yoga chicks always seem happy
adlai: (private lessons. she long ago stopped doing group classes)
BingoBoingo: !~bc stats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 430171 | Current Difficulty: 2.2583287217945956E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 431423 | Next Difficulty In: 1252 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 8 hours, 19 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
adlai: Estimated Next Difficulty: 248,537,181,620 (+10.05%) << nice
adlai: btw, just to bury the earlier discussion of scalpl with shameless self-promotion: if anybody feels adventurous and wants to collaborate, speak up (PM is also OK)
adlai: ('collaborate' implies either having money to potentially lose, or fixing my bugs. preferably the former because i do occasionally do the latter)
trinque: if your thing works you should be flush with cash.
trinque: why should I give you any
asciilifeform: ^
adlai: [scalpl] seen from a distance, is a pretty good machine for converting ten thousand dollars into twenty thousand. [no footnote here! it can make money in crashing markets, too] But, given the [minimum trade size] it is profoundly useless as a machine for converting ten dollars into twenty.
asciilifeform: somehow i knew he'd say this.
asciilifeform: maybe heard it befoar.
BingoBoingo: Sell a kidney?
adlai: (with apologies to Dear Stanislav)
trinque: so work and save yourself 10 grand
trinque: with your sweet software job
asciilifeform: that's a ~month of (very threadbare) salt mine, ffs.
ben_vulpes: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160916/#242 << plausible, sure, but what has actually happened is that a) the chicoms have diddled the phillips female bit such that it cams out at the slightest provocation and than on top of that the zamac used to replace it wears after so much as a single slipped drive and b) torx is a convenient workaround for the shit metals
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-16: [19:47:07] <mircea_popescu> ACTION just found out that phillips and torx heads respectively aren't mere "let's arbitrarily change standards to try and extract spurious rents via alleged intellectual property" ; but in fact have proper reasons to exist. a) phillips head is self-centering ; which is to say driver does not slip out of screw being driven. this was major
scriba: advantage in early automotive work. torx does not cam out ; which was major advantage in
ben_vulpes: i *know* how to sink screws well, and the zinc plated shit for sale is ~unusable even by me.
trinque: Framedragger: yer thing weirds up /me
ben_vulpes: ^^ yeah
asciilifeform: aaaah so ~that~ is what it was.
trinque: yep, it's barfing the raw protocol for it
ben_vulpes: the final nail (screw?) is that even traditionally phillips applications (eg framing) now come with the torx heads.
ben_vulpes: because the soft metal won't drive 3 inches through pine with a phillips any more.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'abundance for all.' 'progress.'
asciilifeform hoards screws, and regrets nothing
adlai: trinque: fwiw, $10k invested in something with a sane risk/reward curve can't net more than ~$100/mo for very long.
ben_vulpes: on the flip side, torx work (for now). i sunk oodles of self-drillers this past weekend without a single slip.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: realize, this is invitation for the next round of metal-softening.
asciilifeform: it will continue
asciilifeform: because there is exactly nothing that would prevent it.
mod6: asciilifeform hoards screws, and regrets nothing << im with ya. they don't make shit like they used to.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i hope this is a comment for the log readers
mod6: i feel a gas-can-rage bubbling up
asciilifeform: eventually there will be separate 'underground' suppliers for ~reasonable building materials, just like you can only get actual food in usa from 'special' suppliers.
trinque hums don't fear the reaper
adlai: !~google needs more cowbell
jhvh1: adlai: need more cowbell on Vimeo: <https://vimeo.com/55624839>; Needs More Cowbell | Know Your Meme: <http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/needs-more-cowbell>; Watch More Cowbell From Saturday Night Live - NBC.com: <http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/more-cowbell-with-will-ferrell-on-snl--video--saturday-night-live--nbc/n41046>
ben_vulpes: not necessarily underground so much as unknown by people
ben_vulpes: http://www.mcmaster.com/#wood-screws/=14796fw
ben_vulpes: mcmaster carr is one of the last bastions of sanity in fab supplies.
ben_vulpes: also i
ben_vulpes: don't hate?
ben_vulpes: their website
ben_vulpes: which was almost impossible to type
trinque: speaking of rot, asciilifeform you'll like this
trinque: I went to mount an encrypted openbsd drive on a different (same endian) arch
trinque: commad proposed I provide it a *new* passphrase
trinque: *command
trinque: guess who's reinstalling heirloom gentoo
asciilifeform unfamiliar with disk crypto on openbsd
trinque: braindamaged thing uses the same command to init a drive as attach the softraid again next time
asciilifeform: thing prolly can't distinguish between bad-decrypt-because-bad-pw and bad-decrypt-because-author-was-dropped-as-a-child
asciilifeform: this is typical.
trinque: becaues autism dictates you're actually creating the /dev/softraid0
trinque: so then same command
ben_vulpes: ahaha trinque biting off gentoo quest again?
asciilifeform: didn't we have a successful gentoo initiation recently ? who was it
asciilifeform: ... diana_coman ?
trinque: I have a disk image of old gentoo, but hey, why not see how hte kids do it these days
ben_vulpes waves at asciilifeform
trinque: it's probably terrible
asciilifeform: she, iirc, used my recipe, even
ben_vulpes: hnm is a gentoo machine
ben_vulpes: ("hateful noise machine")
trinque: I have a shell script that shits out the gentoo I like
adlai: "That all happened twenty years ago. In retrospect, thinking of programs as automobiles wasn???t so bad. Automobiles are pretty simple. If their car stops working, people expect any good mechanic to be able to figure out why and fix the problem" << Welcome to the 21st Century, where the computers still don't work but now they're in everything!
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> eventually there will be separate 'underground' suppliers for ~reasonable building materials, just like you can only get actual food in usa from 'special' suppliers. << At the moment they sit on the shelf next to unreasonable building materials with smallest difference in price tag.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: in some cases, aha
BingoBoingo: Price of insane material usually within 50% of sane materials
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The sane hand tools though are normally seperated from insane tools and spread out by department while insane tools are all gathered in same pile.
ben_vulpes: https://smile.amazon.com/Stanley-85-610-10-Inch-MaxGrip-Adjustable/dp/B00009OYGZ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1472488491&sr=8-3&keywords=vice+wrench << related
adlai: lamport's DnD example is perfectly logical: (apply #'<folder> file) -> "label this file as belonging to that folder", (apply #'<folder>) -> "show me what you got"
adlai: files don't actually move!
BingoBoingo: From herr vulpes link: "This is like a cross between a vice-grip and a crescent wrench. This is great for bath/kitchen plumbing when you need to remove stubborn fixtures and do not want to embed the channel lock/pipe wrench teeth into the chrome fixture and leave rough teeth marks on the smooth surface. The wrench locks down without marring the polished finish and it will not fall off if your hands are slippery wet. I also would like to
BingoBoingo: see this tool in a 12" version. "
BingoBoingo: which is exactly wrong. This a job for pipe wrench and cloth, or in the case of sinks a basin wrench which works on the UNDERSIDE!
ben_vulpes: fucking perverse
BingoBoingo: Real pliers are found in electrical department where fake pliers still abound. Real wrenches are found in plumbing, or for automotive applications from the vendor who operates out of prominently branded boxtruck.
adlai will read the lamport piece to the friend as a patience test, before suggesting sicp / little schemer
mod6: <+asciilifeform> ... diana_coman ? << yeah, heard it went fairly smooth.
adlai: if he asks to read it himself rather than sit through 10min of my silky smooth... failure
BingoBoingo: Real saw comes from antique dealer or garage sale
BingoBoingo: proper levels are found in flooring
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lel that looks like infamous 'vicegrip', 'the wrong tool for every job'
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Read description. Even Vicegrip gets perverted nowadays
BingoBoingo: CrescentVice!
ben_vulpes: if i had to cart around the right tool for every possible job my toolbox would be infinitely large
ben_vulpes: just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
ben_vulpes: praytell, what'd be the right tool for that job?
ben_vulpes: "acetylene torch!!1"
adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
ben_vulpes: yeah mhm right next to the pressurized vapor line that's a grand idea.
ben_vulpes: adlai: is (back) in school?
adlai: go ahead, mircea_popescu, say that the gzipped txt fits better in yours
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench. << PB Blaster!
adlai: ben_vulpes: starting a degree in chemistry. this is the first time i'm attending university, dunno if high school counts for (back)
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: is that in some way i'm missing a torque delivery device?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Patience! Followed by channel locks.
BingoBoingo: Gotta let rust lose the batle to penetrating agent before delivering torque
BingoBoingo: Alternately you could use a sawzall
ben_vulpes: i am a barbarian, use wd-40 for these applications.
ben_vulpes: near the pressurized oh and did i mention heated vapor line?
ben_vulpes: yes a sawzall, grand idea
ben_vulpes: i at least try to not scald myself during demo
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
asciilifeform: ( 'Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystems do not always conceal messages.' G.R. Blakley, I. Borosh. 1979. )
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: denfinitely sawzall
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: sawzall and day laborers, hardly that much of an additional cost
asciilifeform: sawzall >>>>> http://static.wixstatic.com/media/d83b3d_72ff342904414e72a142a5aebb76c6ed.jpg_srz_p_540_360_75_22_0.5_1.2_0_jpg_srz
asciilifeform: oblig.
asciilifeform: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RTujDrqbwBU/TYOb5OUEYOI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/XIUS7Bki-LI/s1600/Fuck+Saw+01a.jpg << correct use.
BingoBoingo: Correct, actual multitool
BingoBoingo: In other noose http://www.bnd.com/news/local/article101989932.html#wgt=trending
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: this happens regularly.
covertress: gawd, i know how you all feel https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1368118.msg16267321#msg16267321
asciilifeform: http://www.bnd.com/news/local/crime/article102204712.html << BingoBoingo , even better lulz from same rag.
asciilifeform: 'A Madison County grand jury returned an indictment Thursday charging a Godfrey teenager with terror-related offenses. Keaun L. Cook, 18, has been charged with one count of material support for terrorism and one count of making a terrorist threat, both of which are class X felonies. He is accused of making verbal threats of mass casualty events at multiple locations in Madison County, which have not been disclosed by law enforcement.
asciilifeform: Madison County State’s Attorney Tom Gibbons has said that Cook was in communication with a known terrorist organization overseas via multiple electronic means. Police were first aware of Cook on Aug. 24 after Madison County sheriff’s deputies were summoned by a family member regarding Cook’s mental state. Family members have said he suffers from multiple mental illnesses.'
BingoBoingo: Oh, alf spoiling a roundup xtend
asciilifeform: 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
asciilifeform: from moving forward.” '
asciilifeform: precrime squad winz!11111
asciilifeform: 'I'm building a Blockchain-as-a-Service (BaaS) corporation and a foundation, to guide and support the open source, public blockchain, KR.'
asciilifeform: why am i reading a tardstalk link.
covertress: jhvh1, recd your tx from 5 days, 0 hours, and 29 minutes ago. evah heard of a phemon called a hurricane?
jhvh1: covertress: Error: "recd" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: for fuxxsake.
asciilifeform back to bed, with 'lure of the integers', bbl.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: sounds terrific
ben_vulpes: lol covertress jhvh1 is a bot
covertress: ha! silly me.
ben_vulpes: have you ever heard of a thing called a 'bouncer'?
covertress: seems i should visit more often
ben_vulpes: it persists an irc connection in spite of whatever third-world problems your corporeal situation brings upon you.
adlai: alternatively just run irc in tmux on a server
covertress: my sit is def 3rd wrld atm
ben_vulpes: adlai: yeah well that'd be an adult's bouncer, neh?
adlai: nah i feel like a child using it, because i failed to configure znc properly so i lazed away how i always do
adlai: maybe... maybe this is how to get in touch with the inner child?
covertress: mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
adlai: sic transit gloria covertris
ben_vulpes: lool
adlai: covertress: on a nicer note, i believe par for this course is to not just "read 6mo of logs", but actually spend 6mo reading logs, before planning/attending a conf
phf: apparently whatever i was doing with cmucl no other lisp can handle
covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
adlai: phf: in other news, i just crashed btcbase.org by clicking search
adlai: and before it died, the logs looked out of date.
phf: adlai: you missed the part where things were broken since 6pm or so
ben_vulpes: covertress: "ethereum foundation"?
ben_vulpes: what is this 'ef'
adlai: phf: didn't miss it (i read scrollback! or at least, skim...), i thought it was back up
adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
adlai: who knew typos could happen in the retina
ben_vulpes: adlai: no a111, no fresh logz.
adlai: covertress: regarding "2016-08-29 18:36:38 +covertress mircea_popescu i've been asked to extend you a similar offer... to write for steemit xD", i'm very curious how much you have earned (ie, withdrawn btc from an exchange after selling) from that shitpile
phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
adlai: oh yes add this to the pile of sbcl warts. it sucks at growing the heap dynamically.
covertress: chill, adlai, i've nevah posted to steemit
asciilifeform: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#413 << what exactly uses so much as 1MB, phf ?
asciilifeform: much less 500
phf: asciilifeform: all of log
asciilifeform: why does it live in lispspace?
asciilifeform: db has no search ?
phf: if i wanted to keep log in sql why would i even use lisp to begin with?
asciilifeform: ahahahaha lolk
adlai: covertress: oh lol. then why are you offering people to shit in a toilet you've warmed?
adlai: * never. in a toilet who's seat you've never warmed.
adlai apparently still misses the occasional selfatari
covertress: adlai: ru 12?
adlai was just talking about how in-touch he is with his inner child
phf: asciilifeform: but even ignoring that, which i think was an interesting design challenge (go audit postgresql), sbcl falls over when actually trying to shuffle in memory data around
covertress: lol 2nd person to prove a point
covertress: xD
asciilifeform: which sbcl was this, ftr ?
adlai: which point?
phf: sbcl-1.2.7-x86-linux
covertress: nn kiddie
asciilifeform: phf: ick
asciilifeform: try with pre-1 ?
phf: you have a canonical sbcl i can throw the problem at?
ben_vulpes: $rate covertress -1 snr
covertress: lol
asciilifeform: phf: aha. when i get back to actual comp, i'll dig
phf: kk
ben_vulpes: !!rate covertress -1 snr
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/ogj1j/?raw=true
covertress: lol
phf: i start it with --dynamic-space-size 2500, it doesn't complain about "can't allocate", but it caps at 1gb. anything over that falls over
ben_vulpes: !!v 41CEAB5E3A51B2AAF3A24A9084BC967BA3A7D2F1D21197A4CF404D6112C8D96A
deedbot: ben_vulpes rated covertress -1 << snr
covertress: lol
asciilifeform: sic transic decimation-with-cunt
adlai: covertress: you've evidently passed the "register PGP key and operate it" barrier, but you're failing the "not annoy people" barrier. you're not the first person to do this, and won't be the last. I suggest you NOT take this personally, figure out why you're failing this test, and... better luck next time.
ben_vulpes: 1) do your six months. 2) don't talk trash on your betters.
asciilifeform: *transit
phf: ben_vulpes: ty
adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
asciilifeform pictures dept. of ninjashogunate in meeting hall, 'what did we fuck up this time'
ben_vulpes: beheading uppity peasants is a privilege, and a duty of the privileged.
ben_vulpes: mas?
covertress: fu, minnions, if you cant take a joke
adlai: honestly though, isn't this more akin to culling a peasant child?
ben_vulpes: she's like 40, no child any more
adlai is not one to judge people's age by the color of their bits
ben_vulpes: although the spelling...
covertress: i was not speaking to you all any way
covertress: gn mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: "you can't fire me, i quit!"
ben_vulpes: begone, harpy.
covertress: lol
adlai: covertress: you're speaking here to pretty much anybody who ever reads a publicly available log
adlai: if you want to speak to somebody privately, send them a message (i've sent you one, did you see it?)
asciilifeform: !!rate covertress -1 insistent idiocy
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/8xgz7/?raw=true
adlai: some people refuse private communication (eg mircea_popescu ) but that doesn't mean that shouting on his lawn is for his ears only.
covertress: i reject your reality, and submit my own
asciilifeform: !!v BEFEFE64D099D3EA094ADFC311B9D3BC5CB96B14252251B8913A1C48C1830AD4
deedbot: asciilifeform rated covertress -1 << insistent idiocy
ben_vulpes: oh you submit do you, that's top kek
covertress: lol
adlai: ever heard of "reality kicks back"?
adlai: or maybe the old idf proverb: "you spit on the army, the army wipes. the army spits on you, you drown"
asciilifeform: why is the turd still floating, trinque ?
ben_vulpes: !!gettrust covertress
deedbot: L1: -1, L2: 2 by 4 connections.
ben_vulpes: !!down covertress
trinque: asciilifeform: what turd
mod6: exactly.
asciilifeform: trinque: eh it went.
trinque: ahaha
ben_vulpes: i mean i had to flush it, twice
mod6: bah-woosh
adlai: ben_vulpes jiggled the handle but i suspect $up in PM may still work
adlai doesn't presume to understand the full inner workings of deedbot, of course; but that's what seems to have happened with the first -v
trinque: !!gettrust deedbot covertress
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
trinque: nope
adlai: oic
adlai takes off hat?
trinque lives in a gentoo livecd nao
ben_vulpes: don't bother installing the os
mod6: heh
ben_vulpes: just leave the usb plugged in
ben_vulpes: what dma
trinque: you know what's sad? I'm actually running off of an SD card in a USB reader
trinque: because that was on my desk
mod6: I'm so glad this week is over.
trinque drinks to that
mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
phf: asciilifeform: i'm seeing weirdest bugs with sbcl
asciilifeform: perhaps deserves bl0g post..?
phf: i can load any of the patches on the v graph, but if i hit genesis (exactly same code, etc.) suddenly balloons to 1gb, and dies with heap exhaustion
asciilifeform: i'd be curious to see if they are reproducible in 'toy' scene
mod6: this is some wild stuff man
asciilifeform: phf: please consider posting the src.
asciilifeform: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#38 <<< see also.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-17: [02:03:09] <asciilifeform> unless folks ~publish~ the magical bug-inducers, i am inclined to agree with the old iddish proverb
adlai: more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
phf: what's the old yiddish proverb?
adlai: mann tracht und stann lacht
asciilifeform: the one where плохому танцору... etc
asciilifeform: now, i ~believe~ phf in re poetteringerized sbcl being a rusted chunk of ???
asciilifeform: but gotta reproduce the bug. or we're doing the mpb thing.
adlai is unfamiliar, digs, finds "When a shlimazl goes dancing, the musicians' strings break"... or maybe asciilifeform meant "girl who can't dance says music sucks"?
asciilifeform bbl.
phf: asciilifeform: well, i'll have to figure out what's going on anyway, to get it working. i was saying sbcl is poetteringerized in abstract, by lateral telltale signs. i didn't expect this code to not simply work. fwiw, despite freenode disconnects the code ~was~ working
phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
ben_vulpes: phf: i miss search quite a bit.
ben_vulpes: half compliment, half complaint.
phf: i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
ben_vulpes: that's be quite nice.
adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
ben_vulpes: what are good drugs?
adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219
scriba: Logged on 2016-08-26: [06:09:42] <BingoBoingo> ;;later tell adlai You work step 1 yet?
adlai: the only good drug is a dead drug! (only heathens lick live toads)
adlai: obviously i don't deeply believe that drugs can be ordered objectively by any parameter (other than therapeutic index, for ones that have known LD50 in humans), but my personal favorite "good drugs" ordering would have cannabis above nicotine and caffeine, and mescaline above alcohol
ben_vulpes: is mescaline particularly titratable?
trinque: adlai: would you have been in a ward if you hadn't taken a bunch of drugs?
trinque: I've done all kinds of psychedelics; just asking.
trinque: I don't believe the "thereaputic" angle for a moment.
adlai: oh dear, we're on to the difficult questions now. punting yours aside for a second, here's an easy question: what does the "therapeutic index" have to do with therapy? answer: none. it's LD50 (median lethal dose) divided by threshhold dose (minimum to feel effects)
trinque: your evasion answers just fine.
adlai: not really.
adlai: the "just fine" answer is: "no, i was hospitalized as an indirect result of conversations which would not have gone the same way without my reaction to certain situations involving drugs"
adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
trinque: aha
adlai: ~median~ lethal dose. like median height, at standard atmospheric pressure.
ben_vulpes: if variance is high enough that number can very easily be bogus.
adlai: but yes, there is for example no known LD50 for lsd
ben_vulpes: i suspect variance is high.
trinque: adlai: there's a you-go-fucking-schizoid-50
adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
trinque: I've taken "heroic" doses too.
trinque: and tripped oodles of times
phf: i know a few people who went crazy in close connection to psychedelics, but of course no way to establish correlation/causation
trinque: knew I was spending something each time.
trinque: and yes, you can "go down a dangerous road" on them, and this is related to but not directly caused by dosage
trinque: ordeal is therapeutic; psychdelics maybe if they cause a beneficial ordeal
ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
adlai: my main takeaway from the 'experience' (including 46 days of involuntary commitment in the closed ward) is that there is no such thing as crazy. sure, some people are out of touch with consensus reality, but you can define that quite precisely, and a lot of "crazy" people do not meet this definition.
ben_vulpes: wow what was the ic like
adlai wouldn't be surprised if some non-"crazy" people are out of touch with consensus reality, but have learned how to fake it
adlai: so many questions without simple answers! i'll stick to the bright side - i ~halved my kyu at go, and spent more time playing guitar than i had in the previous year, combined.
adlai: (halving kyu = doubling skill, at least at the relevant levels)
trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
trinque: that the definition changes over time... of course, because it's a statistical matter of being an outlier
ben_vulpes kicks rocks, whistles, looks around, wouldn't know the first thing about being out of touch with consensus reality
trinque: one wot's crazy is another wot's comrade?
adlai: i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
trinque: that animal can be considered crazy just as a paper can be rejected by peer review.
trinque: -or- he doesn't determine crazy; we do.
adlai: to pick a concrete example, if that alice0meta thinks she's a dead person's tulpa, that in and of itself, doesn't make her out of touch with consensus reality, any more than some people believe in http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_empty_tomb/jn20_01.html
adlai: if, however, she came here trying to get us all to form tulpas, and arguing for personhood of tulpas... then maybe.
trinque: wtf "everyone's feelings matter" bullshit is this
adlai: i'm actually saying that they don't.
adlai: feelings don't make you crazy ~because~ they don't matter. actions make you crazy.
trinque: is it a dead person's "tulpa" ?
trinque: if your argument requires "words have no meanings" kindly fuck off.
adlai: i respect alice's belief that her creator is dead, to the same degree that i'd respect somebody's belief in reincarnation, or resurrection, or transubstantiation. words have meaning, beliefs can be false, but you don't have to act on false beliefs. i'd count somebody who's physical actions are in touch with consensus reality as non-crazy, by the "sufficiently in touch with consensus reality to not die by
adlai: accident" metric
ben_vulpes: not starving is not crazy?
trinque: so we're doing mind body duality, and mind-onanism doesn't count because ???
ben_vulpes: i walk by some folks every morning who appear to still be alive, yet are entirely solidly insane.
trinque: there is no fucking such creature as something which believes falsehoods and whose actions are not impacted causally by them
adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
ben_vulpes: odds are that $group is pretty dubm
adlai: so, i agree that there's some definition of 'crazy' by which tulpa people are crazy, but i think it MUST also include pretty much every religion, and probably also people who have significant net worth in shitty (or any) fiat
trinque: a piece of nonsense here is trying to create universals where the context varies widely.
trinque: for me to stand here and starve would be insane.
trinque: for a somalian, I don't know, maybe that's Tuesday
adlai: then you have even greyer areas like hypnosis, or those who "believe in belief" but don't actually live by any religious commandment
adlai: trinque: i don't think of this as mind-body duality at all. a better analogy would be the phase of some matter. if you cool it enough, it seems solid; zoom in and you see it's still moving, but not enough to break out of formation.
trinque: wtf is the point of words but to model the world as usefully as possible
trinque: the question of the usefulness of a tulpa cannot be posed because "tulpa" is not a thing.
ben_vulpes looks sadly at his imaginary friends
phf: what about poetry
adlai: stupid != crazy
trinque: adlai: a brainputer behaving as though false inputs are present is crazy.
ben_vulpes: words are useful for parting fools from their money trinque
ben_vulpes: aaaaaaaaay
ben_vulpes: !#variable
trinque: phf: I dunno that anyone claims the content of a poem exists
ben_vulpes: !#search variable
adlai: in fact i basically equate sanity with 'more like housewife', with the latter defined as in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=29-08-2015#1255364 , so i'd say that once you get sane enough, you're pretty stupid.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 14:35 asciilifeform: turn it all the way down - you get a housewife
trinque: rather, one that is figurative enough to enter into the insanity thread
trinque: or we would be counting authors as madmen too
phf: ben_vulpes: it's s, but i suppose adding "search" is not a bad idea
ben_vulpes flails at the bots
adlai: ahaha i like ben_vulpes's definition for the use of words
adlai has had jobs where the obscene bulk of his produced work was words
adlai: well, job. but it happened, and lasted for about as long as their money did.
ben_vulpes off, wedding in the woods this weekend
adlai: oh, words are also useful for sex. these days if you sex without words first, you don't pass peer review.
trinque: the trouble of not choosing your gossipd-node peerings wisely
phf: she speaks: o, speak again, bright angel
adlai: obviously there are exceptions in environments where speech is impossible (language barrier, noise club, etc) but i'm gonna bbl as well, reviewing math in anticipation of next month's classes
adlai: !#s speak!
a111: 7 results for "speak!", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=speak!
adlai: wd phf
adlai: !!rate phf another one bots the lisp
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
adlai: stupid useless scalar
adlai: !!rate phf 3 another one bots the lisp
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/k7c5t/?raw=true
adlai: !!v 90F444B853D4E59A1173E3C66AF0F51987D8DD012D927056B953D26EDD47EE07
deedbot: adlai updated rating of phf from 2 to 3 << another one bots the lisp
adlai: !!help
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/help.html
phf: повышаю профпригодность
adlai: closing thought - is there a way to get deedbot to barf all ratings somebody has made, other than enumerating all nicks present in the wot?
phf: !!wot
trinque: did you read that there help
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/iktjr/?raw=true
trinque: !!ratings adlai
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/cty1h/?raw=true
adlai: lol, neither ratings nor wot appear in that there help!
trinque: aw crap
trinque: fix it when I am further along this trail of gentoo tears
phf: asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-29#1255209 << http://www.stihi-rus.ru/1/harms/31.htm☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 04:24 phf: biggest disappointment of my schools years, turns out that "flea balloon" idea doesn't quite work
phf: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: to continue on this evening's drug theme, we have gabriel_laddel, take it away, gabriel
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543759 << Ty pdf. Kids, if you are going to do drugs, be smart about it. People will try and pass off all sorts of nonsense as LSD, and some of those compounds are unsafe(?).☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
gabriel_laddel: Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
gabriel_laddel: Blotter paper with actual doses on it should be perforated so the area takes up about 1/8th of your thumbnail. Anything larger is probably going to put you in a psyc ward.
adlai: sorry but that's silly. "real shot glasses should be 45mL. anything larger is probably going to put you in the cooler for the night"
adlai: the note about blacklight though is spot on (but don't leave it exposed to UV (ESPECIALLY SUNLIGHT) or chlorinated water) for prolonged periods, or it'll become an inactive compound: https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/explore.php?domain=tk&id=5362
adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
adlai: !!v 3F234265DF42B2885436A14C2107694E8814BC85D443E0C69A3A4062FF53198B
deedbot: adlai rated gabriel_laddel 1 << has been helpful both in private and in [re]public
adlai: ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
adlai: another interesting-yet-plausible one is http://www.legiontheory.com/
adlai: also relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWmv66p1XBE (text at http://electricsheep.me/concept2.html for those allergic to pixels)
mircea_popescu: oh the logs montresor!
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#236 << but why ? really, there's more demand for whores in the stripping and cocksucking side of the trade than in the programming side of the trade.
mircea_popescu: and yes, waiting tables IS how you start a whore career ; no exceptions. all waitresses are apprentices of the trade.
mircea_popescu: and in random ancient trilema links, http://trilema.com/2010/lectia-de-filosofie/
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/kuffs/ << Trilema - Kuffs
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543847 << so do 10,000,001 other things, including ~all types of laser print paper...☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 07:59 gabriel_laddel: Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543854 << novelized as stephenson's 'snow crash'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 09:27 adlai: ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this "purple under a blacklight" stuff is pretty lulzy. "a blacklight" ? what wavelength is this black.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: americanism for 'uv-b lamp'
mircea_popescu: iirc lsd is unstable under photon bombardment.
asciilifeform: adlai even pointed out helpfully.
mircea_popescu: besides, what's purple, the indole ?
mircea_popescu: tons of other stuff have the same configuration
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
asciilifeform: incl. the fire retardant in laser paper.
mircea_popescu: ah yeah
mircea_popescu: o nm, apparently others :p were well ahead here.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#252 << is this jewish code for you know ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#271 << sure, but that's 80s ; early automotive work is you know, 50s
mircea_popescu: iirc the patent expired in the 60s
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#285 << practically speaking, google-gender-idiocy for metals.
mircea_popescu: because yes, metals are rarer than shit much like few men, many redditards.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what happened to scriba then ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#291 << which will lead to another round of rent hikes, because every loser out there will be "oh, but house is made with METALLIC components!"
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is ridoinculous. let's try kicking it.
mircea_popescu: hm i guess it doesn't reload either ?
shinohai: ChanServ SET #trilema GUARD OFF ?
shinohai: Oh but you aren't booting chanserv :P
mircea_popescu: i have no idea what this is
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543401 << sbcl codebase ~is~ cmucl codebase, so all the same people who wrote above wrote majority of sbcl. newman's work in adding sane bootstrapping is reproducable by doing early diffs and perhaps should come as vpatch on top of cmucl since it's particularly clean. but here's the thing, the way cmucl does bootstrapping is borrowed directly from a lisp machine, and breaks down precisely because the☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 02:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't speak for others, but i've never even ~heard~ of any of these folk, nor read their spew, until this year.
phf: "whole machine" approach was jammed into a c vm layer. but if we were to actually attempt a lisp on hardware hack, cmucl's approach would involve considerably less complexity
asciilifeform: phf: speaking of, i dug out my sbcl stash, oldest one appears to be 1.0.37 (loaded Mar 29 2010)
mircea_popescu: phf what i don't understand is this bizarre notion that c has some sort of priviledged relation with asm, which is and remains the only hardware language.
mircea_popescu: so no, no hardware hack. learn how to make machinecode lisp yes ?
mircea_popescu: exactly same way c learned. not like the fucking stack works in c ffs.
phf: mircea_popescu: there's machine code in cmucl, the problem is bootstrapping.
mircea_popescu: i do not understand this bootstrapping. what bootstrapping ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-05#1007663☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-02-05 05:06 asciilifeform: * (disassemble '(lambda (x) (+ x 3)))
asciilifeform: thing's got a compiler.
mircea_popescu: if the processor gets a push, the processor will push. what are you bootstrapping ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you recall the 'gnat is built with gnat' thread ?
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: well, that.
asciilifeform: is what is bootstrapping.
mircea_popescu: i do not see how it relates.
asciilifeform: where one gets the first build.
phf: asciilifeform: nah, that's not actually it though
mircea_popescu: yes, one instance of your machine-lisp running on x86 will be required to compile a machine instance of your lisp. so ?
phf: because gnat is built with gnat is related exclusively to .core
mircea_popescu: no c involved.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: getting 10,001 pyramid slaves to hand-compile the compiler into asm with ~guaranteed same semantics~ as the original, isn't even a financial problem, it is problem with 'planet hasn't this number of people who can meaningfully participate'
mircea_popescu: you need the following : a) an item which inputs lisp text and outputs opcodes ; b) and sits down on x86 bare metal. clearly to produce a running isntance of this item you will need a running instance of this item. nevertheless : you do not need c, nor any "bootstrapping" outside of this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gcc produces opcodes out of c. if tll can't produce optcodes out of lisp, the problem is lisp.
asciilifeform: what's tll ?
mircea_popescu: same thing as trb, but with lisplisp instead of cc
asciilifeform: and again, e.g., sbcl, compiles. question is what do you compile ~it~ with
mircea_popescu: aka "the leal lisp"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform itself.
mircea_popescu: if it doesn't compile ITSELF it is not a compiler, ftr.
mircea_popescu: it is an interpreter, or a parser, depending.
phf: mircea_popescu: an assembly that result out of compilation is the problem
mircea_popescu: why ?
phf: because on assembly level you still have things like where things go, how you address those things and how you call subprocesses
mircea_popescu: so ?
phf: well, c-machine assembly level is not particularly good, but it's not guaranteed to be consisten either
mircea_popescu: no, i get it, "vneumann architecture is not lisp friendly". spare me, the vagina is not cock friendly.
mircea_popescu: point is, turning machine. equivalent to all others.
phf: that's not what i'm saying
mircea_popescu: say it again ?
phf: c-machine assembly level has a certain shape to it. when you write int foo { bar(); } an assembly of a certain pattern gets spit out
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the equivalence, in practice, is a null - different structures take vastly disproportionate effort and moving parts to implement, depending on machine design.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shut up and work more. phf ok. so ?
phf: mircea_popescu: cmucl's assembly has a different pattern in order to support all the tricky-in-c-trivial-in-lisp code behaviors
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we had a thread, but it would appear that original author of subj went into the jungle and never came out, so i dug out copy, https://web.archive.org/web/20111227150315/http://www.stripedgazelle.org/joey/dream.html << scheme r4rs interp. written in asm by hand.
mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: and yes, evidently A LOT of asm by hand will go into this. guess what ? this is exactly what the fuck the early c people who made c possible in the sense of having rms hijack it 20 years later did.
phf: mircea_popescu: so in order to bridge the gap between the two you need knowledge of both patterns. cmucl has knowledge of its own, it doesn't also want to have knowledge of all the shit that goes into gcc
asciilifeform: much simpler animal than common lisp, or for that matter than any type of compiler. but imho it is the correct way to bootstrap.
mircea_popescu: without this - there'd be no c, just oddly "bootstrapped" nonsense on top of who the fuck even knows.
asciilifeform: and actually where i began when i was doing x86.
mircea_popescu: phf this is ~nonsense.
phf: how come?
mircea_popescu: it's self evidently nonsense, "my dream girl does not have any center of gravity defined for her tits. i'd like to meet her."
mircea_popescu: would you ? or wouldn't you ?
phf: in the town of shithole everyone has to wear knee high boots because roads are made of shit, if you want to do business in that town, would wearing knee high boots, while you prefer silk slippers make any kind of sense?
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: it is way the fuck better than wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootrsrap"
mircea_popescu: just find a way to silk-line wellingtons.
phf: well cmucl's approach is to hire some locals to carry a palanquin
mircea_popescu: ie, building coke machine for itself, then wondering at results.
phf: hindsight demonstrates that this might not be the best approach, because locals keep dropping the palanquin, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: except they are on close terms with the bottle and fall over regularly.
asciilifeform: planting you face-down in the mud.
phf: correct
asciilifeform: in the end, no cleaner than if you had walked.
mircea_popescu: dumbest approach ever, wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootstrap" is way better.
mircea_popescu: phf management, if half competent, could have spared you the need for hindsight. this is evidently wrong.
phf: but some people ~also~ tried silk-lined wellingtons, and those are even worse. trinque, once he decides to read clisp source code, will realize that the thing is ~unrecoverable~ under the weight of C-specific issues
mircea_popescu: and in general - the controlling point here is the two-jews-in-shitter joke.
asciilifeform read, and knows this
mircea_popescu: phf that some boys tried to talk to girls and didn't get anywhere is scarcely an argument.
phf: mircea_popescu: what would be the correct approach?
asciilifeform: pretty much every c proggy >2k or so lines is similarly unrecoverable 'under the weight.'
phf: write whole thing in c?
mircea_popescu: there is no need to have c specific issues in lisp. seriously. write the asm.
asciilifeform: aaaaaand this is how mircea_popescu arrives on the island where i sat in 2010.
mircea_popescu: you keep going back to this "my code runs in javascript via php" approach to life. it's nonsense. there's 0 need for c.
phf: well, for what it's worth rewriting cmucl vm in asm would be a gnarly but straightforward exercise
mircea_popescu: not a vm.
asciilifeform: it is great island, lush vegetation, but very little edibles.
mircea_popescu: or i guess... wtf does vm mean here ?
mircea_popescu: is kernel a "c vm" ?
phf: yeah, sorry that was ambigious
phf: no
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in this context, folks often say 'vm' when they are really describing emulator of a sane cpu arch.
phf: no!
phf: vm in this case means something closer to x86 bios
mircea_popescu: your application for thick condoms has been denied. rawdog that skank.
mircea_popescu: lisp is supposed to exist out of what, six primitives or some such ? write them in asm. once you're done the job's ~done.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's the easy part
phf: mircea_popescu: that's not what the layer between os and lisp does in the case of sbcl/cmucl. it explicitly doesn't do primitives, because those are, like you said, written in lisp, that's compiled into native bytecode (using VOB's, i.e. chunks for assembly)
phf: *chunks of
mircea_popescu: ok.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the difficult part is 'which skank.' it isn't 1988 and there is no standard pc arch.
mircea_popescu: pick one.
mircea_popescu: then pick another one.
mircea_popescu: then keep going.
phf: asciilifeform's arguing from a completely different architecture
mircea_popescu: phf i'm not so sure that's what i said though.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is gonna be the fpga thread all over again, isnnit. fact is, the 10,001 man-years are not available, and certainly not six times every morning before breakfast.
mircea_popescu: looky : either something's fundamentally broken with lisp, or else it has no "architecture" ; much in the way purple has no shape.
phf: sbcl/cmucl already compiles whatever code you ask it to to native, architecture specific assembly, that's not the C layer's role
mircea_popescu: phf so then what the fuck is the problem ?
asciilifeform: i'ma let phf finish before i return to the iron bit.
mircea_popescu: alright.
phf: mircea_popescu: problem is that when you do a execution like ./foo on unix, ~unix~ expects "foo" to contain certain bits and do certain kind of work to appease unix upfront. that work is specific not to "x86" but to "linux v 1.1.2, compiled on full moon, by three blind monks"
mircea_popescu: and in other hardware-software interactions, http://67.media.tumblr.com/5e92d02a732524921361231d041a7b34/tumblr_nptt458VbX1u1u4hvo1_400.gif
mircea_popescu: phf there is no unix.
mircea_popescu: what unix ?
phf: linux
mircea_popescu: no linux either.
mircea_popescu: you just said, lisp compiles to native bytecode.
phf: i did
mircea_popescu: so then ? i didn't import any linux anything.
phf: well, but you're trying to run it on your linux correct? or we're talking pure hardware layer
mircea_popescu: nope.
mircea_popescu: i am trying to run it on an x86.
phf: but how do you start it?
mircea_popescu: it produces asm for the x86, it runs on it.
phf: i mean do you start it from inside a linux?
mircea_popescu: suppose for this discussion it's already started ; else yes, you need a running machine to compile your image as we said.
phf: no no
mircea_popescu: no dude, forget fucking linux altogether. who cares.
phf: but it's the whole point!
mircea_popescu: the whole point of stupid, yes, "let's make ada work in php!"
mircea_popescu: "it's great because well documented"
phf: programs that have to run on linux don't behave like dos COM files
mircea_popescu: what ?
phf: you know dos "com", which was just a flat sequence of bytecodes and when you did foo.com it would just start executing foo.com with the first byte
mircea_popescu: now you're going to import dos into this discussion ?
mircea_popescu: holy hell! the processor takes opcodes. you produce the opcodes. that's it!
phf: we agree on that point, and lisp is capable of doing this
mircea_popescu: so then let it do this and no more.
phf: it doesn't do anything more than that
mircea_popescu: well i don't see any c/linux/dos/etc in here ?
phf: are you running it on a linux system? because ~if and only if~ that you are you have to bring something extra into the picture
mircea_popescu: i am not running it on a linux system.
mircea_popescu: lisp is the system.
mircea_popescu: there's the following parts : hardware, including memory, cpu, disk etc. we shall call this x86 for short, even if it's a longer story ; tll, which is a compiler. does exactly same as the gcc does in linux : takes lisp code, spits out bytecode ; and finally the lelnel, which does what the kernel does in linux.
mircea_popescu: now, x86 i can already buy, which of tll, lelnel don't exist and what's the excuse.
phf: well, you don't need C for that and there are no excuses
phf: just nobody done it
mircea_popescu: so then for shame, all these dickheads going around holding their heads in their hands and talking about dumb shit while doing no useful work.
mircea_popescu: linux happened in a few years, need i remind you, and those were earlier, drier years.
phf: the thing that ascii mentions he'd pay for "cmucl on hardware" explicitly involves ripping out C code and then doing necessary work to support some minimum set of x86 drivers like keyboards etc.
asciilifeform: i blew years on it and then realized that the hardware is shit .
mircea_popescu: tll-lelnel can exist by 2018.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you also realised the hardware was shit that time we went to olympus and venus asked you to fuck her.
mircea_popescu: tell you what : the hardware's the hardware and the software's the shit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the hardware is very literally shit. e.g., ever heard of acpi ?
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543731 << All we've got is today, it works when you work it (tm)(r)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:58 adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219
phf: mircea_popescu: the real reason it's not been done is because it's fucking hard and nobody cared enough to spend the necessary man years
mircea_popescu: sure, sure.
mircea_popescu: that's also the reason steam engine wasn't done by greeks.
mircea_popescu: too fucking smart for their god damned own good.
asciilifeform: the other bit is, just as in the fpga thread, by the time anyone ~does~ spend the man-years, the requisite hardware is unavailable. see, e.g., 'movitz'.
mircea_popescu: being dumb pays. being smart, not so much. hence http://trilema.com/2011/povestea-celor-trei-imparati-smecheri-si-a-celor-trei-negustori-fraieri-fabula-in-versuri-ilustrata/
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543758 << Stereotypical last drunk seems to be X beers and a blackout where X<4☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
phf: the linux approach actually's been done twice, i.e. write something shitty, but it boots and then improve it until it's somewhat ok. there's https://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ and https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
mircea_popescu: what killed these ?
phf: the problem is that then you're stuck redoing many man years of rewriting cmucl/sbcl in them
mircea_popescu: i can't parse that. say again ?
asciilifeform: building railroad bridge out of toothpicks.
phf: movitz and mezzano are common lisp compilers, they are just shitty ones. they are good enough to boot an os on x86, but they are missing bits (large chunks of standard) because nobody's written those
mircea_popescu: how is this a drawback ?
mircea_popescu: i mean, is there some fundamental reason such can't be written ? that's a problem. otherwise...
asciilifeform: no fundamental reason. just as railway bridge could, in principle, be glued from toothpicks.
mircea_popescu: so then it seems to be that it is an offense before the gods and an insult to man when in any discussion of lisp anyone proposes any other solution than "pick either movitz or mezzano"
phf: i think one could take either of those and turn them into real systems, the way we did with trb, but it's the same class of work
mircea_popescu: fuck all your dumbass sbcl cmucl mcclim et all
asciilifeform: and the hardware ~is~ shit. boot up one of these (if you can actually get it to boot.) and say hello to 1 fps graphics, disks without dma (you don't know what these feel like until trying personally), nic that works when the moon is full strictly, etc.
phf: i'm not sure mezzano boots on native hardware, movitz i did boot, and it's basically what you would expect out of DOS
mircea_popescu: you apparently don't recall early linux worth twopence.
asciilifeform: movitz is worse yet because it is ~married~ to 32-bit x86
phf: well, only in a sense that it's written for it? i'm not sure married is the right word
mircea_popescu: be all this as it may, time to grow up and stop pretending adult lisp is anything but these two.
asciilifeform: phf: a MB of hand-written asm, and reliance on x86-32isms, e.g., segmentation, is 'married'.
mircea_popescu: "emulated" toys for chitlines, dear god.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they're dead ends.
mircea_popescu: everything else is.
asciilifeform: also is.
mircea_popescu: make a third, but in this direction, not in that, if you will.
phf: asciilifeform: oh, i thought for some reason they had civilized VOPs and such
asciilifeform: phf: why take my word for it, thing was published, eons ago, read.
phf: asciilifeform: that wasn't a challenge, i was just disappointed
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu has it, the sane approach involves 0 c and 0 unix, and i came to this conclusion in '07.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the tasks are here in my vierws overstated. linux had the tasks as hard as described, and it did break through, on shittier internet with fewer people milling about. lisp already has c code it can read for many of the drivers etc. this is major advantage. easier job to come 2nd.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: try to understand that linux is barely a thing at runtime. whereas a lisp os has to make up for 10,001 idiocies of the hardware, e.g., lack of garbage collector, lack of type bits in every (yes) machine word that get tested on every (yes) arithmetic operation, etc.
phf: mircea_popescu: people basically come to same conclusion, and then when it comes to putting in "2 years of living from inside an os without youtube" balk
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the two are really not comparable.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell ye.
asciilifeform: and if you use ANY 'c code in the drivers' you get gabriel_laddel.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform those are not disadvantages but advantages.
asciilifeform: spoon of shit in barrel of wine.
mircea_popescu: and i don't propose use c code whatsoever.
phf: asciilifeform: i suspect mp mean's "read it in c and write in your own language"
mircea_popescu: but because you can read it, you get to see vendor magic numbers.
mircea_popescu: phf has it.
phf: which would be consistent with the v threads
asciilifeform: pointing out that the intrinsic complexity far exceeds linux, bsd, whichever c os, kernel.
mircea_popescu: eh get out.
mircea_popescu: intrinsic addable-value far exceeds, yes, which is why we're even talking.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: understand, addition there is no longer 'ADD rax, rbx' but a pound of type bit checks and possible code paths on failure or type-promotion etc.
mircea_popescu: if you're not dumb you probably implement matrix-calls for functions.
asciilifeform: things that the silicon ought to be doing. and ~WAS~ doing in 1976.
phf: but yes, cmucl in this channel started because i was thinking of porting it to hardware. it's obviously what every lisper wants/tries to at some point. in order to achieve it though, i kind of have to read and grok and read again the code the cmucl code, which is what i've been doing..
mircea_popescu: ie, "this our lisp os only works on processors with no less than 8 cores. because we keep all these things pre-loaded and ready to go, and then every time you try to add we do 16 checks in one tick. one op mujlti data ftw!!1"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: believe or not, i thought of this.
mircea_popescu: phf imagine if you will, the beauty of a system where "threads" make no sense in the first place.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it dun work because, again, pc arch is retarded. the processors fight over the bus.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so good for you! none of this is any sort of genius, just systematic refusal of dumbassery.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah but they don't have to!
asciilifeform: they share the bottleneck.
mircea_popescu: yes but you can definitely play to it.
mircea_popescu: in short, unwittingly perhaps, the extant x86 architecture ACTUALLY FAVOURS running a lisp machine over running a c machine.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, from that perspective "no threads!!" is kind of irrelevant, because it's just less things to try and get operational on raw hardware. pretty sure nyef had to pull threads from sbcl when trying to get it running on raw hardware..
asciilifeform: let's say the 8 cores operate on same memory location. how do they maintain cache coherence when writing output ?
mircea_popescu: phf this is not at all waht i meant.
phf: mircea_popescu: i missed the point
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also not what i meant.
mircea_popescu: yea, this is a nutty point, so let me write it out in detail.
mircea_popescu: in c, no checks are performed and you're welcome to go fuck yourself. consequently, c exposes internals of cpu to user, so as to better hang himself. as seen eg in case of eulora client usage of one core and a trillion other places.
asciilifeform: no, it was a ~reasonable~ point, but when you go and try to actually implement it, on actual iron, it drives you to nuttery. because the thing is encrusted with unfathomable layer of undocumented turdolade and 'no this doesn't actually work, because fuckyou'
mircea_popescu: in lisp as discussed here, and generally, a lot of checks are to be performed. this happens to jive well with a matrix calling system for functions and the muiticore design of cpu. because you as lisp will just a) maintain a matrix of all checks to be perfromed as functions and b) keep them permagoing on all processorss. so this way, the cpu count influences internal parallelism in the os, and thus os speed ; not program spee
mircea_popescu: d per se. except in the benefit that its checks will progress this much faster.
mircea_popescu: that make any sense ?
asciilifeform: yes. and it made sense to me in '07. but not in '10 when i understood how the actual extant pc iron works.
mircea_popescu: you documented any of these somewhere, so phf doesn't need to do himself ?
asciilifeform: which is not at all like the naive, reasonable conception pictured here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is documented, and you won't like it at all, e.g., here -- http://developer.amd.com/resources/developer-guides-manuals
phf: well, the main question is "what's a reasonable baseline" to keep you inside the os long enough so that you can keep hacking at it
asciilifeform: and yes, ALL of it is - unfortunately - pertinent.
asciilifeform: there is not, and will not ever be, a 10 page useful compression of it.
asciilifeform: the whole bag of shit is required.
asciilifeform: i have the dead trees, they fill most of a shelf.
phf: in case of linux reasonable baseline was a dialup telnet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was looking for something stictly in the following formula : as part of trying to execute subset X of task Y part of recognizable-primitive Z because so-and so, i came to the method k for theoretical reasons t1 throiugh tn ; attempting to implement it i encountered situation Q even through this makes no sense ; trying to adapt it i encountered exception Q.e1 which is contrary to design philosophy, and attempti
mircea_popescu: ng alternative I encountered explicit block N which etc.
asciilifeform: phf: linux wasn't trying to multiprocessorate every arithmetic instruction etc.
mircea_popescu: nothing else is useful.
phf: because linus wanted to telnet to his university machine, he could do his jerking off on a remote system, while chipping away at his surrounded setup
mircea_popescu: learn to document in that format because else we're stuck redoing your work while you sadly cry on the side.
phf: asciilifeform: nah, different kind of reasonable baseline
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a good chunk of what i've done here since showing up is to try and fill in the gaps in the 'pioneer with arrows in his back' part of my www.
asciilifeform: with variable success, sure.
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not saying you're bad
mircea_popescu: just pointing out that without the exact formula described, knowledge's not terribly useful, and deifnitely not well communciable.
phf: fwiw i went through the same exercise, and on account of being less of a depressive came out with different attitude
asciilifeform: http://support.amd.com/TechDocs/42301_15h_Mod_00h-0Fh_BKDG.pdf << and before anyone asks, it is neither available in any other format, nor accurately convertible -- is sufficient illustration of my point. flip through it and weep.
mircea_popescu: see, but this isn't supposed to be a comparison of fucking emotional states.
mircea_popescu: good god of all goofs!
mircea_popescu goes away to punish someone for something.
phf is finally free to go get breakfast
asciilifeform: lol
phf: take movitz, take lice https://web.archive.org/web/20080624230234/http://www.emmett.ca/~sabetts/, add tcpip stack to it, add irc. what else one needs for tmsr-ing
asciilifeform: phf: we don't even have sane vga on ~linux~ yet.
asciilifeform: (i.e. sans proprietary turds)
phf: if bios driven 640x480 is good enough for terry davis, it's good enough for me
asciilifeform: cue mircea_popescu: 'it works great on my t40! 640x480 is enough for anyone'
asciilifeform: phf: it is possible to make a useful machine with 0 video (serves x11 over nic).
asciilifeform: phf: unfortunately is is ~not~ possible to do without, e.g., disk dma.
asciilifeform: not if you want to do anything resembling, say, bitcoin node.
asciilifeform: or logs db. or, or.
phf: nfs :>
asciilifeform: lolfs.
phf: genera it up all the way
asciilifeform: i worked at a rupturefarm once where we made a massive cluster of diskless boxen.
asciilifeform: the realities, as often is, differ from the idealities.
asciilifeform: link - saturates.
phf: oh yeah of course
asciilifeform: and box that has persistent storage drop out from under it, ever, for any reason, is in a sad state.
asciilifeform: and with networked 'disk' this is a regular thing.
phf: if i were to bootstrap a lisp os from nothingness, i'd just save-lisp over network (or to a drive, depending on which one i figure out how to do first) every once in a while, and yes it's eww and completely suboptimal, but it'll be enough for me for a "i can do practical shit with this system"
asciilifeform: how will you save the nic state registers ?
asciilifeform: the disk controller's ?
asciilifeform: good chunk of'em aren't even memory-mapped.
asciilifeform: (and many of the ones that are, don't read correctly)
asciilifeform: lemme guess, your save-lisp would just ignore the peripherals, which get inited every time.
asciilifeform: welcome to lisp on linux.
asciilifeform: where there's a lisp layer and a liquishit layer.
asciilifeform: and massive layer of gas mask (with many holes) between them.
phf: yes.
phf: slightly less liquid shit though :p
asciilifeform: i'm not convinced.
phf: weren't you saying something about cleaning latriness
asciilifeform: cleaning has a meaning
asciilifeform: thing gets ~less dirty~
phf: fwiw save-lisp of nic state and disk controller state is always a question of degree. either will have to be re-initialized in general, same way as it's careless and possibly meaningless to "save state of running lathe with a component"
asciilifeform: let's do what mircea_popescu asked and work a concrete example.
asciilifeform: i hunted for years and found what imho is the simplest GB/s-capable nic, the rt8168. here is the linux driver, https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/tree/master/src
asciilifeform: https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c << 13,255 lines alone
asciilifeform: and a good chunk of it is https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c#L11871
asciilifeform: (1000s of lines of magicola)
asciilifeform: i actually sat for 6 months or so and reimplemented this thing in asm
asciilifeform: and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
phf: why asm??
phf: write a handful of systems level vops, write rest in lisp
asciilifeform: phf: the thing needs real-time interrupt handling just to init.
asciilifeform: and evidently i kept missing some detail.
asciilifeform: none of the warmup process is in any sense debuggable, either
asciilifeform: if the thing dun go, there is physically no way to determine why it dun go.
asciilifeform: i suspect that NO ONE has ever drivered this thing from scratch. not the winblows folks, either.
asciilifeform: everybody simply took vendor's magic routines.
phf: can you attempt a warm up multiple times without power cycling?
asciilifeform: phf: nope. it wedges.
asciilifeform: oh did i mention that the pci bus has to be correctly set up also ?
asciilifeform: and if you think the bios does this for you, you're probably posting from 1995.
asciilifeform: oh and witness the sheer number of busy-waits, e.g., https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c#L4885
phf: why would i think that? i'd probably go to a lesser N/s target until i can get it to work
asciilifeform: any and all of these are opportunities for deadlocking.
asciilifeform: phf: what target ?
phf: until i can get ~that~ to work rather. then i wouldn't be as pressed to get r8168 working or bust
asciilifeform: there ISN'T a 'simple' nic.
asciilifeform: that you can buy.
asciilifeform: it is a mythical thing, that does not exist on the market.
asciilifeform: they are ALL at least as bad as linked item.
asciilifeform: i had ~all the extant ones brought in (this was a commercial project) and obtained data sheets, etc.
phf: i've had on linux nic drivers before and in 2005 or so not all of them were 20k+ lines that's for sure
phf: *hacked on
asciilifeform: oh did i mention that i surveyed other folks' attempts, e.g., https://github.com/ReturnInfinity/BareMetal-OS/blob/master/os/drivers/net/rtl8169.asm
asciilifeform: ^ does not successfully run any example of the actual chip i was able to get my hands on.
asciilifeform: this is the kind of thing that drives folks to the bottle, to the nuthouse.
phf: i'm not convinced that this is not the case of "mp's t40 is too old and slow"
asciilifeform: phf: if you'd like to try to, e.g., bitcoin, on a 10M nic, be my guest.
phf: ha
asciilifeform: (not even speaking of network disk! or x11 etc.)
phf: ha!
asciilifeform: or serving up www.
asciilifeform: under ddos.
phf: you're just shifting targets here
asciilifeform: nope. describing the various uses of a comp
asciilifeform: at any rate, i would have implemented a 10baseT nic driver, IF ANYONE COULD SOURCE THE FUCKING CHIP
asciilifeform: no one could.
asciilifeform: outside of museum.
phf: if your nic can't accomodate for those things, then your computer can't do those things, but it might not be a problem for the first year
asciilifeform: again, this isn't a case of 'it'll be a 10baseT until i get around to X', it's a case of 'init or go cry'
asciilifeform: the thing doesn't fallback to some 'pretent it is 1995' mode
asciilifeform: where you don't need the 30k lines.
asciilifeform: *pretend
phf: ok, you've convinced me that all is hopeless and there's no point in trying
asciilifeform: well, if anyone can find me a nic !
asciilifeform: it is possible to make a very useful box where ONLY cpu/ram and nic work.
asciilifeform: can even do without disk, for certain applications
asciilifeform: (it can, e.g, readily serve www, or even gossipd etc)
asciilifeform: working with the 8168 woke me up to the fact that i was wrong when naively thought that hardware were still made by sane folk
asciilifeform: it isn't
asciilifeform: consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
asciilifeform: before you can proceed
asciilifeform: and this is absolutely sop.
phf: ok, but nobody here thinks that, the whole point i'm trying to make is that there are ways to overcome the ennui to do what needs to be done
asciilifeform: how? by masamuneing the thing into a c turd ?
asciilifeform: no thx.
asciilifeform: for one thing, you're then stuck with linux's pci and interrupt stack.
phf: why would i even entertain that thought, it should be quiet clear at this point that i've at no point suggested or plan to use C in a lisp os
asciilifeform: well let's work the example phf
phf: no way
asciilifeform: how would you deal with the nic
asciilifeform: and if your answer is 'buy another one' i'm all ears
asciilifeform: and wallet - open
phf: you're saying it's straight up impossible (or approaching that) to get, say, movitz doing networking on real hardware hardware, and i'm calling shenanigans
phf: in terms of what movitz offers of course (without bringing in pre-compiled C blobs)
asciilifeform: it isn't impossible, there were various experiments, e.g., https://github.com/dym/movitz/blob/master/losp/x86-pc/dp8390.lisp
asciilifeform: but they involved iron that is no longer obtainable in any qty.
asciilifeform: to the point that i have nfi even if the linked driver runs at all.
phf: any meaning 1, >1, >10, >tmsr army size?
asciilifeform: 8390 was a product in 1995.
phf: well, main question is what you going to plug isa into :p
asciilifeform: the spittoon, phf, is in one strand.
asciilifeform: !#s spittoon
a111: 47 results for "spittoon", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=spittoon
asciilifeform: >> http://pastebin.com/rG1TxJt2 << oblig.
phf: all that analogy did for me is that every time i think asciilifeform, i remember the fucking spittoon
asciilifeform: lel
phf: sort of like there was always that one kid who'd eat bugs on a dare
asciilifeform: nah that's many. the one kid is that one who eats bugs without dare.
phf: :D
asciilifeform: http://www.osdever.net/documents/WritingDriversForTheDP8390.pdf?the_id=56 << back in the day, they even had asm snippets in the ds.
phf: pretty sure tits used to be bigger too
asciilifeform: now switching from the depressive tack, to the crackpot track, i ~did~ get high speed uart going on one of those all-in-one amd64 boxes.
asciilifeform: so potentially we could 'scheme in asm with uart' on that.
asciilifeform: and go from it, to ???., very slowly.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#292 << test
mircea_popescu: god damn it.
mircea_popescu: so apparently every saturday is "mp can't process logs" day.
phf: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#292
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:34 trinque hums don't fear the reaper
phf: i can just leave this on, until his bot is operational
mircea_popescu: ty.
mircea_popescu: now let's catch up with this monster.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#308 << i thought we had this encrypted-drive vs encrypted-file megatheread, but anyway. the notion of an encrypted ~container~ is fundamentally braindamaged. stick to encrypting items.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:37 trinque: braindamaged thing uses the same command to init a drive as attach the softraid again next time
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly enough, we had this thread prior to the 'block ciphers don't even exist' thread.
asciilifeform: so at the time, the logical objection was 'pwned comp will merrily present the familiar pw prompt and decrypt for enemy'
asciilifeform: to which there was a counter, 'cipher with hardware interposer between disk and comp'
asciilifeform: but block ciphers, it turns out, don't exist...
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: though if you re-read, that objection was there, unexpressed.
asciilifeform: objection was, fundamentally, 'os that prompts for pw is promisetronic, can retain pw if it wants'
asciilifeform: which is 100% factual.
mircea_popescu: and also that "enemy will decrypt your disk and fuck you"
asciilifeform: thread was about ~how~ enemy decrypt and fucks
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#345 << actually, coca cola.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 ben_vulpes: just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
asciilifeform: phosphoric acid
asciilifeform: (active ingredient in, e.g., 'naval jelly', which i dare say works better)
mircea_popescu: he doesn't have a toolbox ; but he does have all the convenience of convenience stores!
asciilifeform: even in hogmilklandia one can buy phosophoric acid without corn syrup. for now.
asciilifeform: *phosphoric
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#348 << it's entirely unclear to me why you think the hieroglyph is noteworthy. sure, in the context of "let's draw hyeroglyphs", it's as good as many other alternatives. in the context of "let's describe basic trigonometry", it's not particularly useful. and you'll realise this the moment you break out of tedtalktardism "i'll rely on the margins of the box as drawn by magic hand for absolut
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 adlai has been reviewing math towards next month's semester start. just encountered a beautiful "fits in head" derivation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AngleAdditionDiagramSine.svg
mircea_popescu: e truthiness and just follow the hand", such pinnacle of achievement in imbecility, and try to fucking draw the outer square yourself.
mircea_popescu: "oh, with provided premeasured tools this table is just long enough" hurr.
asciilifeform: euclid nervously smokes in the corner
mircea_popescu: no but really. "given the circle cvadrature, isn't this escherian trestlework ever so informative ?"
mircea_popescu: this is what your dumbass "modern democracy" aka "human rights" aka "illuminism" aka "usg" aka "eu" aka "western civilisation" aka dumb shit is doing for you : gives you a pen.
mircea_popescu: wherein to run around like headless chickens. if a headless chicken.
phf: euclid's elements are literate, if you look at the extant copies, they have drawings of shapes with labels, but all the details are otherwise in text
mircea_popescu: "we are the premiere science and technology institution in the world. and we can't light a lightbulb. both of these for the exact same reason - we "learned" from wikipedia, ted talks, and other inept contrivances."
mircea_popescu: phf more fucking importantly, it contains no hidden bits. such as "how did you build the square"
mircea_popescu: every drawing in euclid's a REAL drawing.
mircea_popescu: because the man's brain wasn't rotten by virtuality, and fetishism, and ustardism.
asciilifeform: one of these days i'd like to learn who rotted j. c. maxwell's brain, and with what
mircea_popescu: what are you talking aboot ?
asciilifeform: ( recall, herr maxwell was quite unable to visualize the system he worked with, without resorting to mechanical - yes - gears and pulleys )
mircea_popescu: that's not the problem here discussed.
mircea_popescu: the problem here discussed is when the fucking chickens are shown an impossible object and they cluck right along, "oh, look how great".
asciilifeform: in part it was. it is how he came up with the terrifyingly ugly 20-equations-in-20-unknowns thing
mircea_popescu: maybe. /me didn't know the man.
asciilifeform: in re the chickens, i cannot disagree, they are clucking not so far from where i sit, at the local 'university'
mircea_popescu: this is "if chicken were spherical and in vacuum"++. "if building cvadrature of circle is trivial, then here's a drawing for adding angles"
mircea_popescu: "and if your mother had any taste you wouldn't be here."
mircea_popescu: anyway. i guess unintentionally the problem with pictographics ("it hides things from you! they came bite you in ass latere!") was yet again, for the uncountablyest time, shown in all its nude glory.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/not-quite-news-roundup-xtend-6-tmr/ << Qntra - Not Quite News Roundup Xtend 6 (TM)(R)
asciilifeform: 'But if blockchain is to move beyond cryptocurrency and lab experiments to real and profitable deployments, we need to challenge conventional orthodoxy and rethink the role of absolute immutability. Perhaps we will then soon be able to read more about blockchain’s achievements rather than its potential.' << l0l!!
asciilifeform: gold.
asciilifeform: 'One thing is clear: If the financial services industry is to embrace a new technology, it cannot be one in which mischief and mistakes are immutable and fraudsters can defend their actions on spurious ideological grounds. '
asciilifeform: i thought #1 rule of 'unhappening' an event was to ~stop prattling on about it~
asciilifeform: but apparently i have nfi 'HOW WORLD WORX' etc.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck.
mircea_popescu: "real and profitable experiments" PAST cryptocurrency ?
mircea_popescu: tell you what, nothing the us did this year compares. what the fuck is with the pinoy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where did ytou even get the turd from ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo's 'roundup'
asciilifeform: where else.
asciilifeform: 2nd link in latest qntra.
asciilifeform: or rather 1st
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#362 << aha ? so ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so - lulzy if you 'get lucky'
mircea_popescu: "there are 9 4096 bit strings for any given privkey to which you can not encrypt or decrypt."
asciilifeform: mno, that's not it
mircea_popescu: this kinda follows from definitions, and moreover ... the odds, montresor.
asciilifeform: to which encryption == plaintext.
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: and yes, odds are ~= asteroid.
asciilifeform: linked as an arithmetical curio strictly.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#377 << because what'd they say, that they believe themselves useless and a scourge upon the local community ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:33 asciilifeform: 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#397 << this has been pretty lulzy.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:40 covertress: mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
phf: "dhs prevents countless terrorist attacks each year, which we are not at liberty to discuss as they will compromise ongoing and future investigations"
mircea_popescu: doh.
asciilifeform: death ray plot!1111111
mircea_popescu: countless in the sense of exactly 0.
mircea_popescu: which technically denotes a countable countless set.
asciilifeform: remember, remember, the nth of shitember, the deathray treason and plot! i know of no reason, why deathray treason, should ever be forgot!11111111
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520239 << the entry point of this mysterious "our dinner 26-sept".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 23:24 mircea_popescu: get in touch when you're here, i'll send someone to pick you up or such covertress .
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#409 << bwahahaha what ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:45 adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#402 << i have nfi who "patrick" is, but if it's that douchebag murck involved with the vesseness "bitcoin foundation" scam, he has a lot bigger problems than idly posturing around ethereum's corpse/propellerhat
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:43 covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#413 << the logs dun scale huh. shall we have to introduce per-line fees ? :D
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:46 phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
mircea_popescu: !!gettrust deedbot covertress
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
mircea_popescu: works.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#455 << why ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:54 adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#475 << ahahaha ok this was pretty epic.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:59 covertress: i reject your reality, and submit my own
mircea_popescu: are you operating under admirality law adlai ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#509 << thanks! and remember - September, the International Women Discarded As Garbage Day! do your bit to raise awareness!
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:08 mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
mod6: haha, ok!
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#518 << i dunno what school you went to ; but think about the geometric meaning of tan for a second.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:14 adlai: more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#527 << this is such idiocy. what cheap. seriously, it's cheap ? any of these jokers ever stood down system with tb ram or what exactly are they on about.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:24 phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#530 << motherfucker. one day i'm going to find the lame dumbass who told bored middleaged women they have any business involving themselves in the political process and feed him to baby turtles.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:51 phf: i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#532 << i was dry until about halfway through the log, at which point went and poured myself some cognac. this stuff promotes drunkedness, tis clear.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:56 adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#546 << wait, did you bust some dude's face ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
mircea_popescu: or are you the weird sort that assaults the woman for cheating rather than the dude she's cheating with.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#547 << wait, what ? you somehow believe the same helping of paracetamol kills all people or somesuch ? because what, you've seen on tv that the same gunshot hole kills all people ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#554 << how to correctly allocate which doses correspond to which effects is, of course, a science reserved for the truly heroic.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:14 adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << let's instead talk of bridges. badly designed brigde will collapse in rush hour. or maybe not in rush hour. or maybe while closed for repairs, because heavy winds. or maybe just of old age. or perhaps for other reasons. however you model psychoactives - as cars, or as winds ; however you model other people being assholes, cars, winds - fact remains that the less it's used the less it
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
mircea_popescu: collapses, the better it's built the less it collapses and that finally age conquers all.
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as it's a bridge, use it for car traffic rather than as a wind foil ; and pray the architect wasn't a whore fucking drunks. that's about all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: poor model. dynamic system, like jet fighter, not static, like bridge.
asciilifeform: and similar faustian deal.
asciilifeform: as the jet.
mircea_popescu: sure, sure.
mircea_popescu: bridge is dynamic system though. just slow.
asciilifeform: see the 'housewife sanity' thread.
mircea_popescu: (yes all bridges move. no such thing as a rigid bridge since many years nao)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~built~ to be maximally static.
mircea_popescu: the brain is built to be maximally static.
asciilifeform: mno. it learns,
asciilifeform: .
mircea_popescu: this does not settle the point.
mircea_popescu: that it provides you with the delusion of learning to match the societal hallucination of "progress" doth not mean it moved.
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha delusion lolk we had the 'man spends life learning to be a mouse' thread already, n times
mircea_popescu: not what was necessarily meant.
mircea_popescu: but notice that the child "learning" to, eg, walk, is hardly something YOU give it. from outside like.
asciilifeform: hey i said 'learns' not 'taught'
mircea_popescu: just as well could say "and when i was three i put toddling things aside and took my place as king of the walking"
mircea_popescu: yes, but there wasn't any movement there.
asciilifeform: aaah now i gotta go and buy new gas mask canister, lel, bbl.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << fwiw there's no psychotic ouverture of bipolar. 1st case mostly sounds as usgistan "let's call it something"/
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#568 << if this were true we'd be keeping most of the us in white cells.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:20 trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#572 << ostracism is maybe a matter of being crafty, but crazy dun enter into it.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:23 adlai: i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#575 << yes, actually, it does. identity confusion is literally being crazy. it's one thing to have notions about supernatural forces which may help you through shamanism or going to church. it's another to believe you're "really" the other gender etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:25 adlai: to pick a concrete example, if that alice0meta thinks she's a dead person's tulpa, that in and of itself, doesn't make her out of touch with consensus reality, any more than some people believe in http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_empty_tomb/jn20_01.html
mircea_popescu: evidently, not all crazy requires medical support ; and often the nuts are quite subclinical. but anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#588 << they're just inept. crazy discusses the subjective reflection of reality ; not much else. can die as perfectly sane inept losers. the quoted south african ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1500956 ) is a fine example of such. you can equally well be insane, a la arthur blair. "oh, i am an english socialist, though socialsm is necessarily the end of being english, and i'm aware of t☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-11 12:27 mircea_popescu: "If you are white, no positive, active role is left to you. Either you accommodate yourself to the unreasonable, or you play out your life in some futile back alley. You are doomed to this by the disgraceful history of your kind. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not, but it is the way things are." << from another schmuck with a nobel prize.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:31 adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
mircea_popescu: his."
mircea_popescu: "liberals" are insane by simple virtue of being liberals, working on the exact same orwellian rails ; and "transgender" derps by simple virtue of gender confusion. a bunch of indian peons dying in a stampede aren't insane, partly because they're too poor to be insane, partly because they're too stupid to be insane. admitting these can even be distinct.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#599 << yes, what about it ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:37 phf: what about poetry
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#608 << this merely confuses (and counterproductively) the self-doubt of the intelligent virgin boy with the self-confusion of the nut.
mircea_popescu: these aren't the same thing ; even if admittedly the virginal youth is ill equipped to see the difference.
mircea_popescu: (male virginity, in this context, is resolved strictly through taking ownership of women and other things ; not through "having sex", especially if that's practiced as some sort of mutual play)
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#627 << you failing to read the manual doesn't make the scalar stupid or useless. F.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:47 adlai: stupid useless scalar
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#656 << which, of course, was discussed in logs as well as http://trilema.com/2014/the-bicameral-world-in-one-room-the-city-dump-in-the-other-room-the-starred-restaurant-do-these-talk-to-each-other-read-on-to-find-out/
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 09:23 adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
mircea_popescu: so i guess that's ANOTHER F for adlai ; to celebrate his first day back to "all day ircing".
mircea_popescu: careful you don't follow covertress on the path to housewifry, jew.
shinohai: afaik she failed at housewifery too
mircea_popescu: ah ?
BingoBoingo: That would explain a lot.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#958 << lol i hope you enjoyed it.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:03 phf is finally free to go get breakfast
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#960 << the question is not without merit. with irc and rsa one should be all set ; seeing how trinque is working to put bitcoin payments into deedbot ; the bots read lines and etc...
mircea_popescu: seems to me a fine definition of "working computer" is irc+rsa.
mircea_popescu: and seeing how the "irc" side is vaguely slated for replacement by the end of the decade ; and it should be bouncer-mediated anyway, just plaintext-net works as an "irc"
mircea_popescu: curl, tail and rsa.
mod6: im gonna get me one of these xilinx boards.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1001 << this is a very useful sort of datapoint. didja write / are you writing an article with details ? publish the resulyting driver ? discussion ? etc ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 asciilifeform: and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
mircea_popescu: !!up framedr_ghetto
deedbot: framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: hello from rome. how is the ghetto ?
framedr_ghetto: hah! greetings from ned territory.
framedr_ghetto: i'm on a guest network with no access to server. i don't know why scriba is acting up. shall be investigated tomorrow but not before
framedr_ghetto: the one day when btcbase was being updated and scriba was wanted, it failed. :/
framedr_ghetto: phf: thanks for making a111 quote mkj log lines
mircea_popescu: it should you know, rejoin if dc'd. and etc.
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: you in rome for real, or some elaborate etymological joke?
mircea_popescu: see, cause the capitol of the republic and of the entire world.
mircea_popescu: the place all roads lead to.
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: it rejoins if it loses connection to freenode; it tries to re-self-voice if it detects it does not have voice anymore. it does not rejoin chan if it gets kicked. will be fixed.
framedr_ghetto: right, right!
mircea_popescu: framedr_ghetto it's a very cheap signal of "you're drunk", which should be used to reset its state
framedr_ghetto: absolutely.
framedr_ghetto: !$ hello
scriba: Hello, world! My uptime is 3:56:58.
framedr_ghetto: hrmgh.
mircea_popescu: a so it works now ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1002
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 phf: why asm??
mircea_popescu: apparently not.
framedr_ghetto: feel like a (very shitty) nasa engineer communicating with rover on mars and not being able to debug
mircea_popescu: anyway, not the end of the world eh ? fix it tomorrow, nothing burns.
framedr_ghetto: yah. just, feels bad
framedr_ghetto: wine and cold weather and joys of subletting a flat to local folk.
mircea_popescu: did they burn it ?
framedr_ghetto: not yet!
framedr_ghetto: but cleaning a flat... that's a demand too much
framedr_ghetto: there's also a brazilian guy who keeps his dirty socks in the hallway; apparently it's a pattern and not a single instance, too
mircea_popescu: phf to answer the "why asm" thing : because if at issue is to obtain a correct f(lisp) so as it produces the same asm as gcc(c) then we'd better have a good example of target "same asm". his approach is judicious.
mircea_popescu: well at least now i know who to talk to if i ever want real estate in where was this again ?
framedr_ghetto: [btw, just got an x220 for on-foot-travel mode / days. ssd + 9 cell battery => joy. it's a goddamn nice machine. keyboard before lenovo ruined it, etc.; cheapo i5 before it was downsized for "ultramobiles" / w/e. robust as fuck.]
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: glasgow. eh, i'll be outta here this month next year, i think. weather and, you know, the whole wanna-be-empire-failed-island thing..
mircea_popescu: ah yeah. i wouldn't wanna go there.
mircea_popescu: oddly, i know lots of people in a1, but none of them plan to stay
mircea_popescu: few and far between exceptions
framedr_ghetto: "extract purchasing-power-sterling and get outta there" OH WAIT
framedr_ghetto: ...
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1053 << you know, making a nic is not the end of the world.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:54 asciilifeform: consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
mircea_popescu: it even has the advantage of being perhaps the most feared item by lizard court, aside from nuke detonator.
mircea_popescu: 1311 lines should be enough for anyone./
BingoBoingo: In other Quora these syphilitic pussies and their love of $20 chicom firehazards https://archive.is/MMN6v
BingoBoingo: !!up framedr_ghetto
deedbot: framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
framedr_ghetto: BingoBoingo: story idea - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/japan-has-a-worrying-number-of-virgins-government-finds-a7312961.html
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544495 << go and make even a thing that helloworlds on a pci bus, without si fab.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 21:14 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1053 << you know, making a nic is not the end of the world.
asciilifeform: all roads lead to sane fpga, or to perdition.
asciilifeform bbl
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: http://qntra.net/2016/09/not-quite-news-roundup-xtend-6-tmr/#comment-70724
framedr_ghetto: btw if (tm)(r) is being used to denote those "trademark" signs (and not tmsr), it may be noted that (tm) is for an uregistered trademark and (r) is for a registered one. but i guess the reflexive-ironical use of these makes it fine :p
BingoBoingo: It is being used for being used.
mircea_popescu: ^ guy just likes to paste those in for some reason ; they don't seem to carry meaning.
BingoBoingo: giving nonsense meaning would be fiat
mircea_popescu: "When you get systems that are too complicated to understand, people respond with superstition. Thousands of years ago, people didn’t understand astronomy. So superstitions arose—like praying to appease the spirits thought to be responsible for an eclipse." << this, for the record, is idiocy of the ilk of that-blogger-whats-his-name hurr-durring about how EVIDENTLY us nativism / knownothing movement was wrong because look
mircea_popescu: , the irish came and nothing bad happened.
mircea_popescu: anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
mircea_popescu: we reinterpret it strictly as an extension of the present".
mircea_popescu: astrology as a historical human behaviour eminently is NOT connected to ulterior developments such as astronomy, nor caused by them.
mircea_popescu: and also lamport didn't birth his mother.
mircea_popescu: this corroborated with his dubious indictment of some sysadmin who didn't feel like fixing his computer 20 years ago paint the guy in pretty ugly colors.
mircea_popescu: "Responding to an email message is a simple operation with a simple mathematical description." ok, i'm out. fuckhead has not the first inkling as to what he's talking about.
asciilifeform: ahahaha lamport is idiot and i'm d'artagnan lolk.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544514 << this is a point tho.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 22:29 mircea_popescu: anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
asciilifeform: we know what the absence of effective 'knownothings' looks like:
asciilifeform: rotterham.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/09/japanese-virginity-reaches-crisis-levels/ << Qntra - Japanese Virginity Reaches Crisis Levels
BingoBoingo: Perhaps hashtag activism is needed: #RotterJapan
mircea_popescu: what does openbsd future look without you know, "that guy who didn't save it before microsoft" ?
mircea_popescu: so, yeah. like lamport all you want, the piece is obnoxiously idiotic in too many places to fucking count.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't be the first guy with a great idea that then got totally beat to a pulp by trying to put it in words.
asciilifeform: i got nuffin'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu nailed.
mircea_popescu also very much likes lamport.