thestringpuller: its funny how the opiate of the masses never really changes. it just finds more concentrated forms. :\ depressing.
adlai: dude wtf, xey're called "grafic novels" now
thestringpuller: >:( I get serial comics. I'm subscribed to 30 something titles per month atm.
adlai: serialization is how most (?) novels were published for ~ever. strikes me as a fairer economic arrangement than premium+royalties but i'm probably just a clueless outsider
thestringpuller: this graphic novel mania the weee-uh-boos set in motion is ridiculous.
thestringpuller: cuz really a monthly series should be like an episode of tv
adlai grew up on tintin, probably the reason for his strong inoculation against political correctedness
adlai: the best thing about tintin is that nobody is around to dilute the syrup (and no, the movies don't count)
thestringpuller: adlai: but royalties are where all the sweet money is in comics! if a comic, does really well, the license holders get a cut of pretty much everything spawned from the franchise.
adlai: call me when the kids are playing Spiderman Go
thestringpuller: LOL. 4 srs tho. spider-man is a pretty good example. why do you think sony sunk money into a 2nd spiderman trilogy (which became a disaster)? they wanted to keep the movie rights.
mircea_popescu: adlai : tell you what, put whatever does the equivalent of php up, hit it with 10loads/second for half hour and see how hairy a shirt it is.
adlai: mircea_popescu: sbcl dies on too many (for all i know, just two, in the precisely bad timing) ~outgoing~ queries
adlai: maybe? i get this from too many talk-to-exchange (and once from too many talk-to-freenode, with handrolled irc code that didn't rate limit...)
adlai: i never got this when dealing with mpex, but mpex moves slowly enough that parallel queries weren't a concern
adlai: a db on another box would probably count, unless "what color are your packets"?
ben_vulpes: heh i wonder if the thing will even listen to shutdown commands.
ben_vulpes: i'm in no rush, happy to run the hourglass out.
mircea_popescu: large part of it is berkley db being incredibly slow to put itself in a sane state.
ben_vulpes: does this hold when it's not even listening to rpc commands?
mircea_popescu: bdb holds the blockchain and the wallet ; rpc doesn't much enter into it
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-17: [00:40:56] <adlai> mircea_popescu: sbcl dies on too many (for all i know, just two, in the precisely bad timing) ~outgoing~ queries
adlai: asciilifeform: i suspect the culprit is the one CL lib of such quality that it has a plus in its name
adlai: either that, or merely the socket handling.
adlai: (format () "~{~A~^ ~}" (mapcar 'funcall '(lisp-implementation-type lisp-implementation-version machine-type))) => "SBCL 1.2.4.debian X86-64"
adlai: first happened ~2 yrs ago, last happened ~2 weeks ago.
adlai: magical bug inducer = scalpl running against the usual suspects of shitcoinistan
adlai: well, it is always throwing ssl packets, so it could also be that (this is the aforementioned plus-sized library)
adlai: cl+ssl is ffi to openssl
adlai: you have to use ssl with all exchanges (except for one, guess which)
adlai misses the days of scalping without competition
adlai: a) nobody asked you to debug b) it's not seeeekrit, i "backup" on github
adlai: (the most recent bits aren't pushed yet, but theyr'e not relevant to this bug)
adlai: note that this code is written with no brains other than my own in mind
adlai: it's almost "job security"; lets me publish my cake while preventing anybody else from eating it. whether i can eat it too (ie, debug this a decade after writing it) remains to be seen.
adlai: time for... 'ownership' of sbcl?
adlai: or at least, freezing an old version
adlai thinks out loud: 'crystallising' might be a better metaphor than 'freezing', since the purpose isn't only to reduce code temperature, but also to remove impurities as they emerge
adlai: fwiw, whenever i fantasized about owning a lisp compiler, the imagined object went one step further than sbcl, and didn't depend on a C compiler for the 'kernel', but rather shat ELF objects (or whatever other format) from lisp
adlai: (SBCL, contrary to popular mythos, is not 'self hosting')
adlai: everybody who's paid attention. cue internal-mp: "bipeds who don't pay attention are Not People"
adlai: how the hell would you arbitrage the asset formerly known as S.MPOE, other than across time?
adlai: the fact that usd (and other assorted shitcoins) are traded across multiple exchanges is merely an additional profit vector for future implementation... lone wolf projects lope one leap at a time
adlai: (in case it's unclear, "time-arbitrage" is not a risk-free enterprise)
adlai: but neither does a lens notice that a cork slice looks like a grid from close up
trinque: wtf is this myth where sbcl is slow
adlai: well that's a bad analogy, cross-exchange arbitrage is entirely possible programmatically, just not yet implemented
adlai: "time-arbitrage" (ie, buy-low-sell-high-and-hope-the-noise-continues) is entirely automatic (up to sane/profitable configuration), cross-exchange arbitrage is entirely unsupported. scalpl has no understanding of the fact that different markets on different exchanges might involve the same asset.
adlai: it DOES know that different markets on the same exchange could overlap, so a lower fruit is "triangular arbitrage" (eg, simultaneously trading btcusd, atcusd, and btcatc)
adlai: trinque: maybe you're confusing the slowness of compilation with that of execution? python is a very slow compiler.
trinque: the guy just added optimization flags to a debian benchmark
trinque: you're meant to y'know, click the links in pages
trinque: adlai: I'm not confusing shit
adlai: asciilifeform: oh they released another one? better call the snake handlers.
trinque: I have shipped plenty of code that runs on sbcl.
adlai: oh there are links in the links, and idiots spreading false myths (as opposed to the other kind)
adlai: strictly speaking isn't this cmucl's compiler?
trinque: the guy whose resignation I linked forked it from cmucl and rewrote it in lisp
adlai: trinque: which link?
adlai: oh that link. william newman.
adlai: python was always written in lisp. s/cmu/sb/ consisted of rewriting the bootstrapping logic.
mircea_popescu didn't click on newman link, because meh, google shit. but now since came up again, decided to check it out. went to archive.is - not there.
mircea_popescu: "This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference. Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100."
trinque: adlai's link is in there, but from jun 2012
trinque: Therefore, under this system there should be no need to resort to hairy hacking when fundamental internal structures are to be changed, or to "compile it with itself a few times until things settle down". << what the fuck?
trinque: what system compiled itself "until things settle"
mircea_popescu: i dunno, and i can't be arsed to find out. everyone involved sounds exactly like a bunch of whiny fucktards with clitorii.
adlai: yeah, click the second link
mircea_popescu: to counterbalance the oestrogen overload, here's some harm : "Without boasting, I can tell you that, when Volodya struck me across the ear and spat in my face, I really got him, so that he won't forget it. It was only after that that I hit him with his primus and it was evening when I hit him with the iron. So he didn't die straight away by any means. This doesn't prove that I cut his leg off as early as the afternoon. He was
mircea_popescu: still alive then. Whereas Andryusha I killed simply from inertia, and I can't hold myself responsible for that. Why did Andryusha and Yelizaveta Antonovna fall into my hands anyway? They had no business springing out from behind the door. I am being accused of bloodthirstiness; they say I drank blood, but that is not true: I licked up the pools of blood and stains -- it is a man's natural urge to wipe out the traces of even
mircea_popescu: the most trivial of crimes. And also I did not rape Yelizaveta Antonovna. In the first place, she was no longer a virgin; and secondly I was having dealings with a corpse, so she has no cause for complaint. What about the fact that she just happened to have to give birth? Well, I did pull out the infant. The fact that he was not long for this world anyway, well that's really not my fault. I didn't tear his head off; it was hi
mircea_popescu: s thin neck that did that. He was simply not created for this life. It's true that I stomped their dog to a pulp around the floor, but it's really cynical to accuse me of murdering the dog when in the immediate vicinity, it might be said, three human lives had been obliterated. The infant I don't count. Well, all right then, in all this (I can agree with you) it is possible to discern a degree of severity on my part. But to c
mircea_popescu: onsider it a crime that I squatted down and defecated on my victims -- that is really, if you'll excuse me, absurd. Defecation is an urge of nature and consequently can in no sense be criminal. All things considered, I do understand the misgivings of my defence counsel, but all the same I am hoping for a complete acquittal."
adlai: "I was having dealings with a corpse, so she has no cause for complaint." << excellent argument for gutting cmucl rather than sbcl, unless you get off on the screams
trinque already pulled up the tinyscheme source, will read as he drinks wine
mircea_popescu: note also the implied (and ancient) notion that only virgins may be raped.
adlai also suspects that "gutting cmucl" would involve redoing so much of newman's work that it's much lazier to just gut an old version of sbcl
mircea_popescu: wtf is this c code to glue lisp compiled lisp together. good god.
mircea_popescu: why pretend then. just have a honest interpreter written in c sit down and take your repl.
adlai: incidentally, on a slightly related topic: a friend has taken me up on my (foolish, drunken) offer to help teach him programming. i'm tempted to start with a "sheet of paper + mccarthy" approach, since he's yet unspoiled by algol; has anybody tried teaching in this manner?
trinque: hm, mircea_popescu has me wanting to read clisp now
BingoBoingo: <adlai> incidentally, on a slightly related topic: a friend has taken me up on my (foolish, drunken) offer to help teach him programming. i'm tempted to start with a "sheet of paper + mccarthy" approach, since he's yet unspoiled by algol; has anybody tried teaching in this manner? << Don't skip to 12 without working the other steps. Only 13 can be skipped to.
trinque: there is an honesty to not doing this bootstrapping madness while a lisp OS is absent
mircea_popescu: trinque a perhaps even workable alternative would be, adalisp.
mircea_popescu: "7) Paranoid folks like to recompile just again, to be sure that the new system has no artifact from the old running Lisp. These instructions also build the very-optional parts like CLX at this stage. If you want to do that, activate the for loop near the end." << i'm not sure paranoid is the word here.
mircea_popescu: seriously, the vague is getting ridiculous. "artefacts" ?
trinque: asciilifeform: thunked a lady with both that and sicp once, and she actually read them
adlai: mircea_popescu: that tool is called "recompile once more, just to be safe"
adlai: precisely, as opposed to crystallization
BingoBoingo: <trinque> asciilifeform: thunked a lady with both that and sicp once, and she actually read them << This is the difference. The fucking.
trinque: pls moar metaphor, I am not drunk yet
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would anyone want to run anything produced in this manner.
adlai: make sure to avoid the methanol!
adlai: because the fractional still hasn't been invented yet
trinque: BingoBoingo: aha, in fact there was a thread where mircea_popescu explained that y'know, you teach the women things
trinque: and my heathen brain was astonished
mircea_popescu: trinque fancy that, you had to have someone tell you! nature teaches by example, you stick more data into woman each time than you ever did into all machines you ever touched. yet...
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: ./lisp -core lisp.clcore, one line after they misspelled it as losp.clore is really fucking endearing, too.
trinque: the thing may very well be 10 systemd cycles in, given its age
adlai: "verification is economically feasible only in a small number of applications???mainly, for fairly small programs that perform lifecritical functions. Verification techniques are being used successfully to help debug programs, at Microsoft and elsewhere" << please, tell me more about these small, lifecriticial, microsoft applications...
adlai: not without googling, no.
trinque: lamports parked themselves
adlai: yeah i doubt anybody forced him to sign; i suspect anybody who wasn't sufficiently dangerous for enough decades, eventually gets tired of poor impotence, and starts sucking the cock that slapped them
mircea_popescu: well... so he... saved the usg some bucks, still didn't do anything. hero of soviets, medal.
mircea_popescu: if you're not going to do anything anyway, might as well take the lab.
adlai: asciilifeform & trinque : thank you for the suggestions. i'm meeting the guy tomorrow for his 2nd lession, i'll let him choose
mircea_popescu: kinda why i released it, rather than you know, eating it.
mircea_popescu: adlai except their suggestions were essentially "drop the guy, pick up some chicks"
adlai: mircea_popescu: take which lab? teaching physics doesn't involve ~doing~ lab work, only grading it
adlai: fwiw, the last chick i tried to teach lisp, lost patience for lisp ~before~ she lost patience for [my] cock
adlai makes the "stop waiting tables and learn to program" offer to ~all his friends, once he gets drunk enough
trinque: meh, chick I taught lisp said "cool, I know what a computer is now, sorta" and went back to being a chef
adlai: since none yet have reached the point of not needing to wait tables - insufficient data for meaningful answer.
adlai: my pitch has always been "look at me, i worked in the salt mine for less than a year and now live off my savings"
adlai: anybody i know well enough to receive the pitch, knows me well enough to know ~why~ i no longer mine
trinque: I have the decency not to goad my friends into joining an industry in a dark age, tyvm
trinque: bad enough I stuck my dick in this crazy
adlai: living off the savings would have more to do with bitcoin if i were less of an idiot, and had bought less at $1k and more at $10; but then i'd be living off the military discharge bonus, and wouldn't have mined to begin with
adlai: eh i try to keep the pitch minimal, and avoid repeating it (unless too drunk to remember the last one). one guy got repeated pitches but that's only because we lived together and he kept remarking on how i "make money by typing"
adlai: i'm not sure the 'dark age' is limited to this industry, it seems pretty global
adlai doesn't know anybody who likes their job enough to work more than they need, with the possible exception of his mom - who teaches yoga.
trinque: yoga chicks always seem happy
adlai: (private lessons. she long ago stopped doing group classes)
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 430171 | Current Difficulty: 2.2583287217945956E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 431423 | Next Difficulty In: 1252 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 8 hours, 19 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
adlai: Estimated Next Difficulty: 248,537,181,620 (+10.05%) << nice
adlai: btw, just to bury the earlier discussion of scalpl with shameless self-promotion: if anybody feels adventurous and wants to collaborate, speak up (PM is also OK)
adlai: ('collaborate' implies either having money to potentially lose, or fixing my bugs. preferably the former because i do occasionally do the latter)
trinque: if your thing works you should be flush with cash.
adlai: [scalpl] seen from a distance, is a pretty good machine for converting ten thousand dollars into twenty thousand. [no footnote here! it can make money in crashing markets, too] But, given the [minimum trade size] it is profoundly useless as a machine for converting ten dollars into twenty.
adlai: (with apologies to Dear Stanislav)
trinque: so work and save yourself 10 grand
trinque: with your sweet software job
ben_vulpes:
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160916/#242 << plausible, sure, but what has actually happened is that a) the chicoms have diddled the phillips female bit such that it cams out at the slightest provocation and than on top of that the zamac used to replace it wears after so much as a single slipped drive and b) torx is a convenient workaround for the shit metals
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-16: [19:47:07] <mircea_popescu> ACTION just found out that phillips and torx heads respectively aren't mere "let's arbitrarily change standards to try and extract spurious rents via alleged intellectual property" ; but in fact have proper reasons to exist. a) phillips head is self-centering ; which is to say driver does not slip out of screw being driven. this was major
scriba: advantage in early automotive work. torx does not cam out ; which was major advantage in
ben_vulpes: i *know* how to sink screws well, and the zinc plated shit for sale is ~unusable even by me.
trinque: Framedragger: yer thing weirds up /me
trinque: yep, it's barfing the raw protocol for it
ben_vulpes: the final nail (screw?) is that even traditionally phillips applications (eg framing) now come with the torx heads.
ben_vulpes: because the soft metal won't drive 3 inches through pine with a phillips any more.
adlai: trinque: fwiw, $10k invested in something with a sane risk/reward curve can't net more than ~$100/mo for very long.
ben_vulpes: on the flip side, torx work (for now). i sunk oodles of self-drillers this past weekend without a single slip.
mod6: asciilifeform hoards screws, and regrets nothing << im with ya. they don't make shit like they used to.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i hope this is a comment for the log readers
mod6: i feel a gas-can-rage bubbling up
adlai: !~google needs more cowbell
ben_vulpes: not necessarily underground so much as unknown by people
ben_vulpes: mcmaster carr is one of the last bastions of sanity in fab supplies.
trinque: speaking of rot, asciilifeform you'll like this
trinque: I went to mount an encrypted openbsd drive on a different (same endian) arch
trinque: commad proposed I provide it a *new* passphrase
trinque: guess who's reinstalling heirloom gentoo
trinque: braindamaged thing uses the same command to init a drive as attach the softraid again next time
trinque: becaues autism dictates you're actually creating the /dev/softraid0
ben_vulpes: ahaha trinque biting off gentoo quest again?
trinque: I have a disk image of old gentoo, but hey, why not see how hte kids do it these days
trinque: I have a shell script that shits out the gentoo I like
adlai: "That all happened twenty years ago. In retrospect, thinking of programs as automobiles wasn???t so bad. Automobiles are pretty simple. If their car stops working, people expect any good mechanic to be able to figure out why and fix the problem" << Welcome to the 21st Century, where the computers still don't work but now they're in everything!
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> eventually there will be separate 'underground' suppliers for ~reasonable building materials, just like you can only get actual food in usa from 'special' suppliers. << At the moment they sit on the shelf next to unreasonable building materials with smallest difference in price tag.
BingoBoingo: Price of insane material usually within 50% of sane materials
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The sane hand tools though are normally seperated from insane tools and spread out by department while insane tools are all gathered in same pile.
adlai: lamport's DnD example is perfectly logical: (apply #'<folder> file) -> "label this file as belonging to that folder", (apply #'<folder>) -> "show me what you got"
adlai: files don't actually move!
BingoBoingo: From herr vulpes link: "This is like a cross between a vice-grip and a crescent wrench. This is great for bath/kitchen plumbing when you need to remove stubborn fixtures and do not want to embed the channel lock/pipe wrench teeth into the chrome fixture and leave rough teeth marks on the smooth surface. The wrench locks down without marring the polished finish and it will not fall off if your hands are slippery wet. I also would like to
BingoBoingo: which is exactly wrong. This a job for pipe wrench and cloth, or in the case of sinks a basin wrench which works on the UNDERSIDE!
BingoBoingo: Real pliers are found in electrical department where fake pliers still abound. Real wrenches are found in plumbing, or for automotive applications from the vendor who operates out of prominently branded boxtruck.
adlai will read the lamport piece to the friend as a patience test, before suggesting sicp / little schemer
mod6: <+asciilifeform> ... diana_coman ? << yeah, heard it went fairly smooth.
adlai: if he asks to read it himself rather than sit through 10min of my silky smooth... failure
BingoBoingo: Real saw comes from antique dealer or garage sale
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Read description. Even Vicegrip gets perverted nowadays
ben_vulpes: if i had to cart around the right tool for every possible job my toolbox would be infinitely large
ben_vulpes: just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
ben_vulpes: praytell, what'd be the right tool for that job?
ben_vulpes: yeah mhm right next to the pressurized vapor line that's a grand idea.
adlai: go ahead, mircea_popescu, say that the gzipped txt fits better in yours
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench. << PB Blaster!
adlai: ben_vulpes: starting a degree in chemistry. this is the first time i'm attending university, dunno if high school counts for (back)
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: is that in some way i'm missing a torque delivery device?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Patience! Followed by channel locks.
BingoBoingo: Gotta let rust lose the batle to penetrating agent before delivering torque
ben_vulpes: i am a barbarian, use wd-40 for these applications.
ben_vulpes: near the pressurized oh and did i mention heated vapor line?
ben_vulpes: i at least try to not scald myself during demo
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: sawzall and day laborers, hardly that much of an additional cost
covertress: jhvh1, recd your tx from 5 days, 0 hours, and 29 minutes ago. evah heard of a phemon called a hurricane?
jhvh1: covertress: Error: "recd" is not a valid command.
ben_vulpes: have you ever heard of a thing called a 'bouncer'?
ben_vulpes: it persists an irc connection in spite of whatever third-world problems your corporeal situation brings upon you.
adlai: alternatively just run irc in tmux on a server
ben_vulpes: adlai: yeah well that'd be an adult's bouncer, neh?
adlai: nah i feel like a child using it, because i failed to configure znc properly so i lazed away how i always do
adlai: maybe... maybe this is how to get in touch with the inner child?
covertress: mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
adlai: sic transit gloria covertris
adlai: covertress: on a nicer note, i believe par for this course is to not just "read 6mo of logs", but actually spend 6mo reading logs, before planning/attending a conf
phf: apparently whatever i was doing with cmucl no other lisp can handle
covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
adlai: phf: in other news, i just crashed btcbase.org by clicking search
adlai: and before it died, the logs looked out of date.
phf: adlai: you missed the part where things were broken since 6pm or so
adlai: phf: didn't miss it (i read scrollback! or at least, skim...), i thought it was back up
adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
adlai: who knew typos could happen in the retina
adlai: covertress: regarding "2016-08-29 18:36:38 +covertress mircea_popescu i've been asked to extend you a similar offer... to write for steemit xD", i'm very curious how much you have earned (ie, withdrawn btc from an exchange after selling) from that shitpile
phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
adlai: oh yes add this to the pile of sbcl warts. it sucks at growing the heap dynamically.
covertress: chill, adlai, i've nevah posted to steemit
phf: asciilifeform: all of log
phf: if i wanted to keep log in sql why would i even use lisp to begin with?
adlai: covertress: oh lol. then why are you offering people to shit in a toilet you've warmed?
adlai: * never. in a toilet who's seat you've never warmed.
adlai apparently still misses the occasional selfatari
adlai was just talking about how in-touch he is with his inner child
phf: asciilifeform: but even ignoring that, which i think was an interesting design challenge (go audit postgresql), sbcl falls over when actually trying to shuffle in memory data around
phf: sbcl-1.2.7-x86-linux
phf: you have a canonical sbcl i can throw the problem at?
phf: i start it with --dynamic-space-size 2500, it doesn't complain about "can't allocate", but it caps at 1gb. anything over that falls over
ben_vulpes: !!v 41CEAB5E3A51B2AAF3A24A9084BC967BA3A7D2F1D21197A4CF404D6112C8D96A
deedbot: ben_vulpes rated covertress -1 << snr
adlai: covertress: you've evidently passed the "register PGP key and operate it" barrier, but you're failing the "not annoy people" barrier. you're not the first person to do this, and won't be the last. I suggest you NOT take this personally, figure out why you're failing this test, and... better luck next time.
ben_vulpes: 1) do your six months. 2) don't talk trash on your betters.
adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
ben_vulpes: beheading uppity peasants is a privilege, and a duty of the privileged.
adlai: honestly though, isn't this more akin to culling a peasant child?
adlai is not one to judge people's age by the color of their bits
adlai: covertress: you're speaking here to pretty much anybody who ever reads a publicly available log
adlai: if you want to speak to somebody privately, send them a message (i've sent you one, did you see it?)
adlai: some people refuse private communication (eg mircea_popescu ) but that doesn't mean that shouting on his lawn is for his ears only.
covertress: i reject your reality, and submit my own
deedbot: asciilifeform rated covertress -1 << insistent idiocy
adlai: ever heard of "reality kicks back"?
adlai: or maybe the old idf proverb: "you spit on the army, the army wipes. the army spits on you, you drown"
deedbot: L1: -1, L2: 2 by 4 connections.
adlai: ben_vulpes jiggled the handle but i suspect $up in PM may still work
adlai doesn't presume to understand the full inner workings of deedbot, of course; but that's what seems to have happened with the first -v
trinque: !!gettrust deedbot covertress
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
trinque lives in a gentoo livecd nao
trinque: you know what's sad? I'm actually running off of an SD card in a USB reader
trinque: because that was on my desk
mod6: I'm so glad this week is over.
mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
phf: asciilifeform: i'm seeing weirdest bugs with sbcl
phf: i can load any of the patches on the v graph, but if i hit genesis (exactly same code, etc.) suddenly balloons to 1gb, and dies with heap exhaustion
mod6: this is some wild stuff man
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-17: [02:03:09] <asciilifeform> unless folks ~publish~ the magical bug-inducers, i am inclined to agree with the old iddish proverb
adlai: more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
phf: what's the old yiddish proverb?
adlai: mann tracht und stann lacht
adlai is unfamiliar, digs, finds "When a shlimazl goes dancing, the musicians' strings break"... or maybe asciilifeform meant "girl who can't dance says music sucks"?
phf: asciilifeform: well, i'll have to figure out what's going on anyway, to get it working. i was saying sbcl is poetteringerized in abstract, by lateral telltale signs. i didn't expect this code to not simply work. fwiw, despite freenode disconnects the code ~was~ working
phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
phf: i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
scriba: Logged on 2016-08-26: [06:09:42] <BingoBoingo> ;;later tell adlai You work step 1 yet?
adlai: the only good drug is a dead drug! (only heathens lick live toads)
adlai: obviously i don't deeply believe that drugs can be ordered objectively by any parameter (other than therapeutic index, for ones that have known LD50 in humans), but my personal favorite "good drugs" ordering would have cannabis above nicotine and caffeine, and mescaline above alcohol
trinque: adlai: would you have been in a ward if you hadn't taken a bunch of drugs?
trinque: I've done all kinds of psychedelics; just asking.
trinque: I don't believe the "thereaputic" angle for a moment.
adlai: oh dear, we're on to the difficult questions now. punting yours aside for a second, here's an easy question: what does the "therapeutic index" have to do with therapy? answer: none. it's LD50 (median lethal dose) divided by threshhold dose (minimum to feel effects)
trinque: your evasion answers just fine.
adlai: the "just fine" answer is: "no, i was hospitalized as an indirect result of conversations which would not have gone the same way without my reaction to certain situations involving drugs"
adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
adlai: ~median~ lethal dose. like median height, at standard atmospheric pressure.
ben_vulpes: if variance is high enough that number can very easily be bogus.
adlai: but yes, there is for example no known LD50 for lsd
trinque: adlai: there's a you-go-fucking-schizoid-50
adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
trinque: I've taken "heroic" doses too.
trinque: and tripped oodles of times
phf: i know a few people who went crazy in close connection to psychedelics, but of course no way to establish correlation/causation
trinque: knew I was spending something each time.
trinque: and yes, you can "go down a dangerous road" on them, and this is related to but not directly caused by dosage
trinque: ordeal is therapeutic; psychdelics maybe if they cause a beneficial ordeal
☟︎ ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
☟︎ phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
☟︎ adlai: my main takeaway from the 'experience' (including 46 days of involuntary commitment in the closed ward) is that there is no such thing as crazy. sure, some people are out of touch with consensus reality, but you can define that quite precisely, and a lot of "crazy" people do not meet this definition.
adlai wouldn't be surprised if some non-"crazy" people are out of touch with consensus reality, but have learned how to fake it
adlai: so many questions without simple answers! i'll stick to the bright side - i ~halved my kyu at go, and spent more time playing guitar than i had in the previous year, combined.
adlai: (halving kyu = doubling skill, at least at the relevant levels)
trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
trinque: that the definition changes over time... of course, because it's a statistical matter of being an outlier
ben_vulpes kicks rocks, whistles, looks around, wouldn't know the first thing about being out of touch with consensus reality
trinque: one wot's crazy is another wot's comrade?
adlai: i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
trinque: that animal can be considered crazy just as a paper can be rejected by peer review.
trinque: -or- he doesn't determine crazy; we do.
adlai: if, however, she came here trying to get us all to form tulpas, and arguing for personhood of tulpas... then maybe.
trinque: wtf "everyone's feelings matter" bullshit is this
adlai: i'm actually saying that they don't.
adlai: feelings don't make you crazy ~because~ they don't matter. actions make you crazy.
trinque: is it a dead person's "tulpa" ?
trinque: if your argument requires "words have no meanings" kindly fuck off.
adlai: i respect alice's belief that her creator is dead, to the same degree that i'd respect somebody's belief in reincarnation, or resurrection, or transubstantiation. words have meaning, beliefs can be false, but you don't have to act on false beliefs. i'd count somebody who's physical actions are in touch with consensus reality as non-crazy, by the "sufficiently in touch with consensus reality to not die by
trinque: so we're doing mind body duality, and mind-onanism doesn't count because ???
ben_vulpes: i walk by some folks every morning who appear to still be alive, yet are entirely solidly insane.
trinque: there is no fucking such creature as something which believes falsehoods and whose actions are not impacted causally by them
adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
adlai: so, i agree that there's some definition of 'crazy' by which tulpa people are crazy, but i think it MUST also include pretty much every religion, and probably also people who have significant net worth in shitty (or any) fiat
trinque: a piece of nonsense here is trying to create universals where the context varies widely.
trinque: for me to stand here and starve would be insane.
trinque: for a somalian, I don't know, maybe that's Tuesday
adlai: then you have even greyer areas like hypnosis, or those who "believe in belief" but don't actually live by any religious commandment
adlai: trinque: i don't think of this as mind-body duality at all. a better analogy would be the phase of some matter. if you cool it enough, it seems solid; zoom in and you see it's still moving, but not enough to break out of formation.
trinque: wtf is the point of words but to model the world as usefully as possible
trinque: the question of the usefulness of a tulpa cannot be posed because "tulpa" is not a thing.
trinque: adlai: a brainputer behaving as though false inputs are present is crazy.
ben_vulpes: words are useful for parting fools from their money trinque
trinque: phf: I dunno that anyone claims the content of a poem exists
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 14:35 asciilifeform: turn it all the way down - you get a housewife
trinque: rather, one that is figurative enough to enter into the insanity thread
trinque: or we would be counting authors as madmen too
phf: ben_vulpes: it's s, but i suppose adding "search" is not a bad idea
adlai: ahaha i like ben_vulpes's definition for the use of words
adlai has had jobs where the obscene bulk of his produced work was words
adlai: well, job. but it happened, and lasted for about as long as their money did.
adlai: oh, words are also useful for sex. these days if you sex without words first, you don't pass peer review.
trinque: the trouble of not choosing your gossipd-node peerings wisely
phf: she speaks: o, speak again, bright angel
adlai: obviously there are exceptions in environments where speech is impossible (language barrier, noise club, etc) but i'm gonna bbl as well, reviewing math in anticipation of next month's classes
adlai: !!rate phf another one bots the lisp
adlai: stupid useless scalar
adlai: !!rate phf 3 another one bots the lisp
adlai: !!v 90F444B853D4E59A1173E3C66AF0F51987D8DD012D927056B953D26EDD47EE07
deedbot: adlai updated rating of phf from 2 to 3 << another one bots the lisp
phf: повышаю профпригодность
adlai: closing thought - is there a way to get deedbot to barf all ratings somebody has made, other than enumerating all nicks present in the wot?
trinque: did you read that there help
adlai: lol, neither ratings nor wot appear in that there help!
trinque: fix it when I am further along this trail of gentoo tears
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 04:24 phf: biggest disappointment of my schools years, turns out that "flea balloon" idea doesn't quite work
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: to continue on this evening's drug theme, we have gabriel_laddel, take it away, gabriel
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
gabriel_laddel: Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
☟︎ gabriel_laddel: Blotter paper with actual doses on it should be perforated so the area takes up about 1/8th of your thumbnail. Anything larger is probably going to put you in a psyc ward.
adlai: sorry but that's silly. "real shot glasses should be 45mL. anything larger is probably going to put you in the cooler for the night"
adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
adlai: !!v 3F234265DF42B2885436A14C2107694E8814BC85D443E0C69A3A4062FF53198B
deedbot: adlai rated gabriel_laddel 1 << has been helpful both in private and in [re]public
adlai: ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from
http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and yes, waiting tables IS how you start a whore career ; no exceptions. all waitresses are apprentices of the trade.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 07:59 gabriel_laddel: Actual LSD will glow purple under a blacklight, unlike all other compounds people attempt to use in its place.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 09:27 adlai: ahaha, review of jaynes's book: "The weight of original thought in it is so great that it makes me uneasy for the author's well-being: the human mind is not built to support such a burden." - D.C. Stove, in Encounter (from
http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this "purple under a blacklight" stuff is pretty lulzy. "a blacklight" ? what wavelength is this black.
mircea_popescu: because yes, metals are rarer than shit much like few men, many redditards.
shinohai: ChanServ SET #trilema GUARD OFF ?
shinohai: Oh but you aren't booting chanserv :P
phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543401 << sbcl codebase ~is~ cmucl codebase, so all the same people who wrote above wrote majority of sbcl. newman's work in adding sane bootstrapping is reproducable by doing early diffs and perhaps should come as vpatch on top of cmucl since it's particularly clean. but here's the thing, the way cmucl does bootstrapping is borrowed directly from a lisp machine, and breaks down precisely because the
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 02:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't speak for others, but i've never even ~heard~ of any of these folk, nor read their spew, until this year.
phf: "whole machine" approach was jammed into a c vm layer. but if we were to actually attempt a lisp on hardware hack, cmucl's approach would involve considerably less complexity
mircea_popescu: phf what i don't understand is this bizarre notion that c has some sort of priviledged relation with asm, which is and remains the only hardware language.
mircea_popescu: so no, no hardware hack. learn how to make machinecode lisp yes ?
mircea_popescu: exactly same way c learned. not like the fucking stack works in c ffs.
phf: mircea_popescu: there's machine code in cmucl, the problem is bootstrapping.
mircea_popescu: i do not understand this bootstrapping. what bootstrapping ?
a111: Logged on 2015-02-05 05:06 asciilifeform: * (disassemble '(lambda (x) (+ x 3)))
mircea_popescu: if the processor gets a push, the processor will push. what are you bootstrapping ?
phf: asciilifeform: nah, that's not actually it though
mircea_popescu: yes, one instance of your machine-lisp running on x86 will be required to compile a machine instance of your lisp. so ?
phf: because gnat is built with gnat is related exclusively to .core
mircea_popescu: you need the following : a) an item which inputs lisp text and outputs opcodes ; b) and sits down on x86 bare metal. clearly to produce a running isntance of this item you will need a running instance of this item. nevertheless : you do not need c, nor any "bootstrapping" outside of this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gcc produces opcodes out of c. if tll can't produce optcodes out of lisp, the problem is lisp.
mircea_popescu: if it doesn't compile ITSELF it is not a compiler, ftr.
phf: mircea_popescu: an assembly that result out of compilation is the problem
phf: because on assembly level you still have things like where things go, how you address those things and how you call subprocesses
phf: well, c-machine assembly level is not particularly good, but it's not guaranteed to be consisten either
mircea_popescu: no, i get it, "vneumann architecture is not lisp friendly". spare me, the vagina is not cock friendly.
phf: that's not what i'm saying
phf: c-machine assembly level has a certain shape to it. when you write int foo { bar(); } an assembly of a certain pattern gets spit out
phf: mircea_popescu: cmucl's assembly has a different pattern in order to support all the tricky-in-c-trivial-in-lisp code behaviors
mircea_popescu: and yes, evidently A LOT of asm by hand will go into this. guess what ? this is exactly what the fuck the early c people who made c possible in the sense of having rms hijack it 20 years later did.
phf: mircea_popescu: so in order to bridge the gap between the two you need knowledge of both patterns. cmucl has knowledge of its own, it doesn't also want to have knowledge of all the shit that goes into gcc
mircea_popescu: without this - there'd be no c, just oddly "bootstrapped" nonsense on top of who the fuck even knows.
mircea_popescu: it's self evidently nonsense, "my dream girl does not have any center of gravity defined for her tits. i'd like to meet her."
phf: in the town of shithole everyone has to wear knee high boots because roads are made of shit, if you want to do business in that town, would wearing knee high boots, while you prefer silk slippers make any kind of sense?
mircea_popescu: it is way the fuck better than wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootrsrap"
phf: well cmucl's approach is to hire some locals to carry a palanquin
mircea_popescu: ie, building coke machine for itself, then wondering at results.
phf: hindsight demonstrates that this might not be the best approach, because locals keep dropping the palanquin, etc.
mircea_popescu: dumbest approach ever, wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootstrap" is way better.
mircea_popescu: phf management, if half competent, could have spared you the need for hindsight. this is evidently wrong.
phf: but some people ~also~ tried silk-lined wellingtons, and those are even worse. trinque, once he decides to read clisp source code, will realize that the thing is ~unrecoverable~ under the weight of C-specific issues
mircea_popescu: and in general - the controlling point here is the two-jews-in-shitter joke.
mircea_popescu: phf that some boys tried to talk to girls and didn't get anywhere is scarcely an argument.
phf: mircea_popescu: what would be the correct approach?
phf: write whole thing in c?
mircea_popescu: there is no need to have c specific issues in lisp. seriously. write the asm.
mircea_popescu: you keep going back to this "my code runs in javascript via php" approach to life. it's nonsense. there's 0 need for c.
phf: well, for what it's worth rewriting cmucl vm in asm would be a gnarly but straightforward exercise
phf: yeah, sorry that was ambigious
phf: vm in this case means something closer to x86 bios
mircea_popescu: your application for thick condoms has been denied. rawdog that skank.
mircea_popescu: lisp is supposed to exist out of what, six primitives or some such ? write them in asm. once you're done the job's ~done.
phf: mircea_popescu: that's not what the layer between os and lisp does in the case of sbcl/cmucl. it explicitly doesn't do primitives, because those are, like you said, written in lisp, that's compiled into native bytecode (using VOB's, i.e. chunks for assembly)
phf: asciilifeform's arguing from a completely different architecture
mircea_popescu: looky : either something's fundamentally broken with lisp, or else it has no "architecture" ; much in the way purple has no shape.
phf: sbcl/cmucl already compiles whatever code you ask it to to native, architecture specific assembly, that's not the C layer's role
phf: mircea_popescu: problem is that when you do a execution like ./foo on unix, ~unix~ expects "foo" to contain certain bits and do certain kind of work to appease unix upfront. that work is specific not to "x86" but to "linux v 1.1.2, compiled on full moon, by three blind monks"
phf: well, but you're trying to run it on your linux correct? or we're talking pure hardware layer
phf: but how do you start it?
phf: i mean do you start it from inside a linux?
mircea_popescu: suppose for this discussion it's already started ; else yes, you need a running machine to compile your image as we said.
phf: but it's the whole point!
mircea_popescu: the whole point of stupid, yes, "let's make ada work in php!"
phf: programs that have to run on linux don't behave like dos COM files
phf: you know dos "com", which was just a flat sequence of bytecodes and when you did foo.com it would just start executing foo.com with the first byte
mircea_popescu: holy hell! the processor takes opcodes. you produce the opcodes. that's it!
phf: we agree on that point, and lisp is capable of doing this
phf: it doesn't do anything more than that
phf: are you running it on a linux system? because ~if and only if~ that you are you have to bring something extra into the picture
mircea_popescu: there's the following parts : hardware, including memory, cpu, disk etc. we shall call this x86 for short, even if it's a longer story ; tll, which is a compiler. does exactly same as the gcc does in linux : takes lisp code, spits out bytecode ; and finally the lelnel, which does what the kernel does in linux.
mircea_popescu: now, x86 i can already buy, which of tll, lelnel don't exist and what's the excuse.
phf: well, you don't need C for that and there are no excuses
mircea_popescu: so then for shame, all these dickheads going around holding their heads in their hands and talking about dumb shit while doing no useful work.
mircea_popescu: linux happened in a few years, need i remind you, and those were earlier, drier years.
phf: the thing that ascii mentions he'd pay for "cmucl on hardware" explicitly involves ripping out C code and then doing necessary work to support some minimum set of x86 drivers like keyboards etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you also realised the hardware was shit that time we went to olympus and venus asked you to fuck her.
mircea_popescu: tell you what : the hardware's the hardware and the software's the shit.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:58 adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >>
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219 phf: mircea_popescu: the real reason it's not been done is because it's fucking hard and nobody cared enough to spend the necessary man years
mircea_popescu: that's also the reason steam engine wasn't done by greeks.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
phf: the problem is that then you're stuck redoing many man years of rewriting cmucl/sbcl in them
phf: movitz and mezzano are common lisp compilers, they are just shitty ones. they are good enough to boot an os on x86, but they are missing bits (large chunks of standard) because nobody's written those
mircea_popescu: i mean, is there some fundamental reason such can't be written ? that's a problem. otherwise...
mircea_popescu: so then it seems to be that it is an offense before the gods and an insult to man when in any discussion of lisp anyone proposes any other solution than "pick either movitz or mezzano"
phf: i think one could take either of those and turn them into real systems, the way we did with trb, but it's the same class of work
phf: i'm not sure mezzano boots on native hardware, movitz i did boot, and it's basically what you would expect out of DOS
mircea_popescu: you apparently don't recall early linux worth twopence.
phf: well, only in a sense that it's written for it? i'm not sure married is the right word
mircea_popescu: be all this as it may, time to grow up and stop pretending adult lisp is anything but these two.
mircea_popescu: make a third, but in this direction, not in that, if you will.
phf: asciilifeform: oh, i thought for some reason they had civilized VOPs and such
phf: asciilifeform: that wasn't a challenge, i was just disappointed
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the tasks are here in my vierws overstated. linux had the tasks as hard as described, and it did break through, on shittier internet with fewer people milling about. lisp already has c code it can read for many of the drivers etc. this is major advantage. easier job to come 2nd.
phf: mircea_popescu: people basically come to same conclusion, and then when it comes to putting in "2 years of living from inside an os without youtube" balk
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform those are not disadvantages but advantages.
phf: asciilifeform: i suspect mp mean's "read it in c and write in your own language"
mircea_popescu: but because you can read it, you get to see vendor magic numbers.
phf: which would be consistent with the v threads
mircea_popescu: intrinsic addable-value far exceeds, yes, which is why we're even talking.
mircea_popescu: if you're not dumb you probably implement matrix-calls for functions.
phf: but yes, cmucl in this channel started because i was thinking of porting it to hardware. it's obviously what every lisper wants/tries to at some point. in order to achieve it though, i kind of have to read and grok and read again the code the cmucl code, which is what i've been doing..
mircea_popescu: ie, "this our lisp os only works on processors with no less than 8 cores. because we keep all these things pre-loaded and ready to go, and then every time you try to add we do 16 checks in one tick. one op mujlti data ftw!!1"
mircea_popescu: phf imagine if you will, the beauty of a system where "threads" make no sense in the first place.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so good for you! none of this is any sort of genius, just systematic refusal of dumbassery.
mircea_popescu: in short, unwittingly perhaps, the extant x86 architecture ACTUALLY FAVOURS running a lisp machine over running a c machine.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, from that perspective "no threads!!" is kind of irrelevant, because it's just less things to try and get operational on raw hardware. pretty sure nyef had to pull threads from sbcl when trying to get it running on raw hardware..
phf: mircea_popescu: i missed the point
mircea_popescu: yea, this is a nutty point, so let me write it out in detail.
mircea_popescu: in c, no checks are performed and you're welcome to go fuck yourself. consequently, c exposes internals of cpu to user, so as to better hang himself. as seen eg in case of eulora client usage of one core and a trillion other places.
mircea_popescu: in lisp as discussed here, and generally, a lot of checks are to be performed. this happens to jive well with a matrix calling system for functions and the muiticore design of cpu. because you as lisp will just a) maintain a matrix of all checks to be perfromed as functions and b) keep them permagoing on all processorss. so this way, the cpu count influences internal parallelism in the os, and thus os speed ; not program spee
mircea_popescu: d per se. except in the benefit that its checks will progress this much faster.
mircea_popescu: you documented any of these somewhere, so phf doesn't need to do himself ?
phf: well, the main question is "what's a reasonable baseline" to keep you inside the os long enough so that you can keep hacking at it
phf: in case of linux reasonable baseline was a dialup telnet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was looking for something stictly in the following formula : as part of trying to execute subset X of task Y part of recognizable-primitive Z because so-and so, i came to the method k for theoretical reasons t1 throiugh tn ; attempting to implement it i encountered situation Q even through this makes no sense ; trying to adapt it i encountered exception Q.e1 which is contrary to design philosophy, and attempti
mircea_popescu: ng alternative I encountered explicit block N which etc.
phf: because linus wanted to telnet to his university machine, he could do his jerking off on a remote system, while chipping away at his surrounded setup
mircea_popescu: learn to document in that format because else we're stuck redoing your work while you sadly cry on the side.
phf: asciilifeform: nah, different kind of reasonable baseline
mircea_popescu: just pointing out that without the exact formula described, knowledge's not terribly useful, and deifnitely not well communciable.
phf: fwiw i went through the same exercise, and on account of being less of a depressive came out with different attitude
mircea_popescu: see, but this isn't supposed to be a comparison of fucking emotional states.
phf is finally free to go get breakfast
phf: if bios driven 640x480 is good enough for terry davis, it's good enough for me
phf: genera it up all the way
phf: if i were to bootstrap a lisp os from nothingness, i'd just save-lisp over network (or to a drive, depending on which one i figure out how to do first) every once in a while, and yes it's eww and completely suboptimal, but it'll be enough for me for a "i can do practical shit with this system"
phf: slightly less liquid shit though :p
phf: weren't you saying something about cleaning latriness
phf: fwiw save-lisp of nic state and disk controller state is always a question of degree. either will have to be re-initialized in general, same way as it's careless and possibly meaningless to "save state of running lathe with a component"
phf: write a handful of systems level vops, write rest in lisp
phf: can you attempt a warm up multiple times without power cycling?
phf: why would i think that? i'd probably go to a lesser N/s target until i can get it to work
phf: until i can get ~that~ to work rather. then i wouldn't be as pressed to get r8168 working or bust
phf: i've had on linux nic drivers before and in 2005 or so not all of them were 20k+ lines that's for sure
phf: i'm not convinced that this is not the case of "mp's t40 is too old and slow"
phf: you're just shifting targets here
phf: if your nic can't accomodate for those things, then your computer can't do those things, but it might not be a problem for the first year
phf: ok, you've convinced me that all is hopeless and there's no point in trying
phf: ok, but nobody here thinks that, the whole point i'm trying to make is that there are ways to overcome the ennui to do what needs to be done
phf: why would i even entertain that thought, it should be quiet clear at this point that i've at no point suggested or plan to use C in a lisp os
phf: you're saying it's straight up impossible (or approaching that) to get, say, movitz doing networking on real hardware hardware, and i'm calling shenanigans
phf: in terms of what movitz offers of course (without bringing in pre-compiled C blobs)
phf: any meaning 1, >1, >10, >tmsr army size?
phf: well, main question is what you going to plug isa into :p
phf: all that analogy did for me is that every time i think asciilifeform, i remember the fucking spittoon
phf: sort of like there was always that one kid who'd eat bugs on a dare
phf: pretty sure tits used to be bigger too
mircea_popescu: so apparently every saturday is "mp can't process logs" day.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:34 trinque hums don't fear the reaper
phf: i can just leave this on, until his bot is operational
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:37 trinque: braindamaged thing uses the same command to init a drive as attach the softraid again next time
mircea_popescu: though if you re-read, that objection was there, unexpressed.
mircea_popescu: and also that "enemy will decrypt your disk and fuck you"
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:18 ben_vulpes: just two weekends ago i had to excise some rust-welded nuts that didn't have clearance for a socket wrench.
mircea_popescu: he doesn't have a toolbox ; but he does have all the convenience of convenience stores!
mircea_popescu:
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#348 << it's entirely unclear to me why you think the hieroglyph is noteworthy. sure, in the context of "let's draw hyeroglyphs", it's as good as many other alternatives. in the context of "let's describe basic trigonometry", it's not particularly useful. and you'll realise this the moment you break out of tedtalktardism "i'll rely on the margins of the box as drawn by magic hand for absolut
mircea_popescu: e truthiness and just follow the hand", such pinnacle of achievement in imbecility, and try to fucking draw the outer square yourself.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: "oh, with provided premeasured tools this table is just long enough" hurr.
mircea_popescu: no but really. "given the circle cvadrature, isn't this escherian trestlework ever so informative ?"
mircea_popescu: this is what your dumbass "modern democracy" aka "human rights" aka "illuminism" aka "usg" aka "eu" aka "western civilisation" aka dumb shit is doing for you : gives you a pen.
mircea_popescu: wherein to run around like headless chickens. if a headless chicken.
phf: euclid's elements are literate, if you look at the extant copies, they have drawings of shapes with labels, but all the details are otherwise in text
mircea_popescu: "we are the premiere science and technology institution in the world. and we can't light a lightbulb. both of these for the exact same reason - we "learned" from wikipedia, ted talks, and other inept contrivances."
mircea_popescu: phf more fucking importantly, it contains no hidden bits. such as "how did you build the square"
mircea_popescu: because the man's brain wasn't rotten by virtuality, and fetishism, and ustardism.
mircea_popescu: the problem here discussed is when the fucking chickens are shown an impossible object and they cluck right along, "oh, look how great".
mircea_popescu: this is "if chicken were spherical and in vacuum"++. "if building cvadrature of circle is trivial, then here's a drawing for adding angles"
mircea_popescu: "and if your mother had any taste you wouldn't be here."
mircea_popescu: anyway. i guess unintentionally the problem with pictographics ("it hides things from you! they came bite you in ass latere!") was yet again, for the uncountablyest time, shown in all its nude glory.
mircea_popescu: "real and profitable experiments" PAST cryptocurrency ?
mircea_popescu: tell you what, nothing the us did this year compares. what the fuck is with the pinoy.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
mircea_popescu: "there are 9 4096 bit strings for any given privkey to which you can not encrypt or decrypt."
mircea_popescu: this kinda follows from definitions, and moreover ... the odds, montresor.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:33 asciilifeform: 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:40 covertress: mircea_popescu: i regret to inform you that i will not be attending our dinner 26-Sept
phf: "dhs prevents countless terrorist attacks each year, which we are not at liberty to discuss as they will compromise ongoing and future investigations"
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 23:24 mircea_popescu: get in touch when you're here, i'll send someone to pick you up or such covertress .
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:45 adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:43 covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:46 phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 4 connections.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:54 adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:59 covertress: i reject your reality, and submit my own
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:08 mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:14 adlai: more stuff i never learned in school: tanA + tanB + tanC = tanA * tanB * tanC
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:24 phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:51 phf: i'll bring it back probably tonight. i've got tea pot, i've got hookah, i've got a fuck you to "no smoking in building" complaints
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:56 adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
mircea_popescu: or are you the weird sort that assaults the woman for cheating rather than the dude she's cheating with.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:14 adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
mircea_popescu:
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << let's instead talk of bridges. badly designed brigde will collapse in rush hour. or maybe not in rush hour. or maybe while closed for repairs, because heavy winds. or maybe just of old age. or perhaps for other reasons. however you model psychoactives - as cars, or as winds ; however you model other people being assholes, cars, winds - fact remains that the less it's used the less it
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
mircea_popescu: collapses, the better it's built the less it collapses and that finally age conquers all.
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as it's a bridge, use it for car traffic rather than as a wind foil ; and pray the architect wasn't a whore fucking drunks. that's about all.
mircea_popescu: (yes all bridges move. no such thing as a rigid bridge since many years nao)
mircea_popescu: that it provides you with the delusion of learning to match the societal hallucination of "progress" doth not mean it moved.
mircea_popescu: but notice that the child "learning" to, eg, walk, is hardly something YOU give it. from outside like.
mircea_popescu: just as well could say "and when i was three i put toddling things aside and took my place as king of the walking"
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:20 trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:23 adlai: i don't think that an ~animal~ which avoids starvation, dehydration, ostracism, and greivous bodily harm, can be counted crazy
mircea_popescu:
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#575 << yes, actually, it does. identity confusion is literally being crazy. it's one thing to have notions about supernatural forces which may help you through shamanism or going to church. it's another to believe you're "really" the other gender etc.
mircea_popescu: evidently, not all crazy requires medical support ; and often the nuts are quite subclinical. but anyway.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-11 12:27 mircea_popescu: "If you are white, no positive, active role is left to you. Either you accommodate yourself to the unreasonable, or you play out your life in some futile back alley. You are doomed to this by the disgraceful history of your kind. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not, but it is the way things are." << from another schmuck with a nobel prize.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:31 adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
mircea_popescu: "liberals" are insane by simple virtue of being liberals, working on the exact same orwellian rails ; and "transgender" derps by simple virtue of gender confusion. a bunch of indian peons dying in a stampede aren't insane, partly because they're too poor to be insane, partly because they're too stupid to be insane. admitting these can even be distinct.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:37 phf: what about poetry
mircea_popescu: these aren't the same thing ; even if admittedly the virginal youth is ill equipped to see the difference.
mircea_popescu: (male virginity, in this context, is resolved strictly through taking ownership of women and other things ; not through "having sex", especially if that's practiced as some sort of mutual play)
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:47 adlai: stupid useless scalar
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 09:23 adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
mircea_popescu: so i guess that's ANOTHER F for adlai ; to celebrate his first day back to "all day ircing".
☟︎ mircea_popescu: careful you don't follow covertress on the path to housewifry, jew.
shinohai: afaik she failed at housewifery too
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:03 phf is finally free to go get breakfast
mircea_popescu: seems to me a fine definition of "working computer" is irc+rsa.
mircea_popescu: and seeing how the "irc" side is vaguely slated for replacement by the end of the decade ; and it should be bouncer-mediated anyway, just plaintext-net works as an "irc"
mod6: im gonna get me one of these xilinx boards.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 asciilifeform: and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
deedbot: framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
framedr_ghetto: i'm on a guest network with no access to server. i don't know why scriba is acting up. shall be investigated tomorrow but not before
framedr_ghetto: the one day when btcbase was being updated and scriba was wanted, it failed. :/
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: you in rome for real, or some elaborate etymological joke?
mircea_popescu: see, cause the capitol of the republic and of the entire world.
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: it rejoins if it loses connection to freenode; it tries to re-self-voice if it detects it does not have voice anymore. it does not rejoin chan if it gets kicked. will be fixed.
mircea_popescu: framedr_ghetto it's a very cheap signal of "you're drunk", which should be used to reset its state
scriba: Hello, world! My uptime is 3:56:58.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:38 phf: why asm??
framedr_ghetto: feel like a (very shitty) nasa engineer communicating with rover on mars and not being able to debug
mircea_popescu: anyway, not the end of the world eh ? fix it tomorrow, nothing burns.
framedr_ghetto: wine and cold weather and joys of subletting a flat to local folk.
framedr_ghetto: there's also a brazilian guy who keeps his dirty socks in the hallway; apparently it's a pattern and not a single instance, too
mircea_popescu: phf to answer the "why asm" thing : because if at issue is to obtain a correct f(lisp) so as it produces the same asm as gcc(c) then we'd better have a good example of target "same asm". his approach is judicious.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: well at least now i know who to talk to if i ever want real estate in where was this again ?
framedr_ghetto: [btw, just got an x220 for on-foot-travel mode / days. ssd + 9 cell battery => joy. it's a goddamn nice machine. keyboard before lenovo ruined it, etc.; cheapo i5 before it was downsized for "ultramobiles" / w/e. robust as fuck.]
framedr_ghetto: mircea_popescu: glasgow. eh, i'll be outta here this month next year, i think. weather and, you know, the whole wanna-be-empire-failed-island thing..
mircea_popescu: oddly, i know lots of people in a1, but none of them plan to stay
framedr_ghetto: "extract purchasing-power-sterling and get outta there" OH WAIT
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 17:54 asciilifeform: consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
mircea_popescu: it even has the advantage of being perhaps the most feared item by lizard court, aside from nuke detonator.
deedbot: framedr_ghetto voiced for 30 minutes.
framedr_ghetto: btw if (tm)(r) is being used to denote those "trademark" signs (and not tmsr), it may be noted that (tm) is for an uregistered trademark and (r) is for a registered one. but i guess the reflexive-ironical use of these makes it fine :p
mircea_popescu: ^ guy just likes to paste those in for some reason ; they don't seem to carry meaning.
mircea_popescu: "When you get systems that are too complicated to understand, people respond with superstition. Thousands of years ago, people didn’t understand astronomy. So superstitions arose—like praying to appease the spirits thought to be responsible for an eclipse." << this, for the record, is idiocy of the ilk of that-blogger-whats-his-name hurr-durring about how EVIDENTLY us nativism / knownothing movement was wrong because look
mircea_popescu: anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
☟︎ mircea_popescu: we reinterpret it strictly as an extension of the present".
mircea_popescu: astrology as a historical human behaviour eminently is NOT connected to ulterior developments such as astronomy, nor caused by them.
mircea_popescu: this corroborated with his dubious indictment of some sysadmin who didn't feel like fixing his computer 20 years ago paint the guy in pretty ugly colors.
mircea_popescu: "Responding to an email message is a simple operation with a simple mathematical description." ok, i'm out. fuckhead has not the first inkling as to what he's talking about.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 22:29 mircea_popescu: anachronism is universally the sign of an uneducated mind - in the blogger's case because he fails to account for the obvious case that "what if the only reason nothing happened is BECAUSE those people were there then ?" ; but in the general case as displayed by lamport also. it is ridiculous to pretend to science, logic and reason, and then to turn around and tell a story of the past in the terms of "here's what's left once
BingoBoingo: Perhaps hashtag activism is needed: #RotterJapan
mircea_popescu: what does openbsd future look without you know, "that guy who didn't save it before microsoft" ?
mircea_popescu: so, yeah. like lamport all you want, the piece is obnoxiously idiotic in too many places to fucking count.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't be the first guy with a great idea that then got totally beat to a pulp by trying to put it in words.