Matthew: danielpbarron: i was just trying to get some free cyrpto
diana_coman: heh, add to that the fact that I specifically got interested in computers initially for the very promise (to my mind at the time at least) that they are... reliable; because programmable, see? such silly 17-yo mea
Matthew: i heard about u on EfnetNews 47
Matthew: also spoke to u for a second the other night
danielpbarron: well i don't wanna bore the channel with stuff you can easily learn from atruechurch.info
phf: wut, half the horrible code i've seen is from actual engineers. usually unstructructured reams of potato code like they were taught to write matlab or fortran
diana_coman: phf might be onto something in that functional programming was not mandatory for instance; I took the course because I wanted to but I could have had no idea of it at all even, easily
phf: their beards (and lack of) were of wide wariety. sure there are hypothetical ee's from 70s who switched to programming micros in the 80s who write god tier C, but bulk of them is not it
diana_coman: fwiw I take asciilifeform to mean the engineering approach vs current "programming" approach; that has little to do with "engineer" diploma or not,sadly
Matthew: you guys wrote this yourself right
☟︎ diana_coman: where his very self tends to write too, yes
diana_coman: asciilifeform, theoretically yes; at that time though I did not even go that far and it still proved to be wishful thinking
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 15:18 ReadErr: hmm
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, what else is there ? usg wrote its fanfic itself too.
mircea_popescu: imagine the lulz, "circumspect" reporter going into white house alt-reality distortion field festival, "hmm... you guys came up with this shit yourselves, right ?"
mircea_popescu: yeah, i expect so. certainly they didn't go about collecting best-kim-ung's oppinions.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763745 << /me dutifully follows, and duly falls upon "2) What was not implemented until recently was functions returning unconstrained arrays. This is a very tricky thing to do, as I'll describe in a moment. The week before Tri-Ada, I added a temporary, kludgy implementation to GNAT. About the only thing it had to say for itself is that it worked, but it creates serious memory leaks. It
☝︎ mircea_popescu: is not intended as a final implementation." (the original 80wrap braindamage has been fixed). I CAN SCARCELY APPREHEND ETC
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 15:55 phf: heh "Classification of Dugin as a fascist is justified, regardless of the fact that today the MGU professor frequently speaks not as a primitive ethnocentrist or biological racist. (...) By «fascist» we understand the «generic» meaning of the concept, used in comparatory research of contemporary right-wing extremism by such well-known historians-comparativists [etc.]
mircea_popescu: but WHY would someone involved DO THIS. it's like dentist going "and here's a squirrel i put wooden teeth into. they were plywood and didn't work very well, it's not intended for geriatric care"
mircea_popescu: motherfucker, why the pointless animal cruelty! not like you didn't know plywood dun work for this application.
shinohai: Comedy that ben_vulpes might enjoy:
http://archive.is/9gkfT "If we see more female figures on traffic lights that might also have a positive impact on changing the way we view the world."
mircea_popescu: now THAT is an example of "item you should not have to fix, you should not make in first place". no memory leak ever was naturally occuring. it's not like indigestion, it's like nails hammered into skull.
ben_vulpes: shinohai: i'll put it on the budget lolz shelf
mircea_popescu: "it worked, but it created serious memory leaks" is, of and by itself, diagnosable string. not even indicative, dispositive outright!
mircea_popescu: it's not even "i wrote something that DIDNT WORK". that, is one thing. here, he wrote something, he evaluated it as "works", BUT.
ben_vulpes: what is with these retards and their untestable hypotheses anyways, "this might blablabla the whateverwhatever". nigga can you not design an experiment? or might it be that the necessary experiments are actually impossible given the impossibility of baking metrics and disambiguating confounding factors?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what concerns me is the man's self-evaluator. "i went to battle with the electric fence ; i won, but..."
ben_vulpes: in other news, lowtax state of wa remarkably efficient in stark comparison to hightax state of or.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:02 asciilifeform: ( why ? e.g. naggum's canonical 'if all you need is for something to "work", and you don't give a damn when and how it fails, C++ and Perl is for you. if you care deeply about not having your software fail, you would naturally feel a correspondingly deep sense of betrayal from the authors of both languages -- because they make it so damn hard to express the fact that you do care about the failure modes.' )
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it could also be that there's so much metrage of dead air to fill and so very little to fill it with. "this may be an entertaining talkshow ; it isn't, of course, but... WSOD!!!"
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764095 << scheuristic, ie, the schelling heuristic. like a point, except a heuristic. btw, is the point clear there ? not that "epicycles weren't abolished", but that "the substantial difference between the real item, ie, epicycles, which were so abolished, and the pantsuitology item, ie clothespin, which never existed, is exactly of the nature of defeated-enemy vs defeated-strawman" ?
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but now merge these factual observations, which are correct BUT SUPERFICIAL, with your own knowledge on and around the scheuristic point of "coffin liners".
mircea_popescu: it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: no, but rather than talking of the genuine item, ie, epicycles, they talk of entirely fictitious item, ie, "human rights".
mircea_popescu: here's a point of discussion : in the palace of versailles, the desicated excrement in the corners of the hallways was swept away once a week.
mircea_popescu: this is uninteresting until you stop to consider that the "fascist" ancien regime (that's the word you'd use today, right ?) did NOT have the fucking ability to deny people taking a shit when they felt like taking a shit.
mircea_popescu: or is it the case that we pick and choose, and who "we" is matters, and so on etcetera.
mircea_popescu: what fucking human rights. they're not a kind of epicycles, they're a kind of jokicicles.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now find "alien idea" device applied to physically existing item.
mircea_popescu: (ftr, "epicycles" here is a categorical term to describe an array of fixes attempted to bring ptolemaic system astrology in line with observable reality)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wish to see text where this item is called "alien problem".
mircea_popescu: fine, you rescued what was previously 100% pantsuit wank into a 99.(9)% item.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 01:18 mircea_popescu: it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> diana_coman: picture, if su survived, you might be designing votingcircuit cpu for e.g. 'buran' << In veintenary switches!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-31 16:39 mircea_popescu: don't lie, because if you do you form a sort of mental habit that will prevent you from ever inventing anything.
mircea_popescu: it'd also be RATHER FUCKING SHOCKING just how much intelligence is needed to merely maintain the border between "tru science" and "discredited paradigm".
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 01:17 asciilifeform: wiles, see, 'doesn't count' because 'too long and uses things not taught in kindergarten and wtf is this'
mircea_popescu: exactly because "technology helps the theives too, is policework-neutral overall" phenomenon.
mircea_popescu: "oh, DO WE STILL HAVE TO DO THIS ?!?!?! IN 2018 ?!?! EPICYCLES ?!?!?". gimme a break, you can't light a fucking lightbulb.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: it is easy to come up with a partition one can live with himself.
mircea_popescu: it is notoriously difficult for fathers to pick competent sons for daughters / stalins to pick competent successors etc.
mircea_popescu: this is the case at least 50% of the time throughout history.
mircea_popescu: consider the case of "evil" scientists that were WRONG
mircea_popescu: yes, heuristics exist, and can be used. that's about it.
mircea_popescu: now then, back to the issue : i suspect "alien problem" is a worse than useless heuristic, in the exact sense "web metric" are a worse than useless management aid.
mircea_popescu: in that it does little more than veneer bias into some kind of dysfunctional reification.
mircea_popescu: the epicycles, before removal, a) had a history whcih b) was understood by the removers. the "alien problem" is how lazy jwz say "i don't want to read", by and large.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a difference between poet ignoring language convention and junior high "innocent bystander who happens to be black" ignoring same.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the train seats issue is particularly iffy, considering how japanese did rework in 70s.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 23:10 mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning."
mircea_popescu: well, so then, "alien problem is how an authority may choose to communicate the excommunication of a class of activity" lel.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, i'm satisfied this ass was well beaten to pulp.
BingoBoingo: You know who loves making fun of the Obese: Latinos
mircea_popescu: btw, you ever read tiganiada ? did i ask this before ?
mircea_popescu: "human rights" hurr. nobody reading that thought "o hey, how great, old woman gets ground into the dirt". HOWEVER, the difference between sane person and moderntard is that they also didn't go "HEY, PIXIE DUST!!! MAKE ALL BETTER!!!"
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15114.99, vol: 14781.61107198 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15077.0, vol: 44836.08867496 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15209.0, vol: 3536.72083144 | Volume-weighted last average: 15093.2839045
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:41 esthlos: guys like alan kay push a certain political narrative, but it doesnt add up
mircea_popescu: motherfucker... NOBODY CARES. seriouyslty now. it makes exactly zero difference for any practical purpose "in the industry" whether you chain up all the women and sell them off to martians.
mircea_popescu: all these fucktards "being involved" in various topics through insistently discussing what they read in hustler. jacking off doesn't make you a beautician/car mechanic/architect/dentist/etcetera. it may make you blind, apparently, to the world around, but whatevs.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:44 asciilifeform: why am i reading about e.g. '...ignorance about the lived experience of women compiler writers, say, can lead to hurtful behavior...' ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:44 phf: esthlos: reflecting on it a bit, tricky part of k&p for plain text is de-hyphenating for reflow
mircea_popescu: i do not wish to see de-hyphenate or chumpa-tron split up.
mircea_popescu: yeah, trilema not a very good field for the "oh, ima be vague" approach. it's called trilema because it has at least three of everything!
mircea_popescu: "intelligence is only a labor-saving device. less intelligent people can in principle create just as elegant solutions, but it would normally take them more effort to get there." <<< ajhaha NO! FUCKING! WAY!
phf: why hyphenate or why dehyphenate? the first is not necessary but reduces the value of k&s since basically there's very little play available with monospaced spaces
mircea_popescu: phf but hyphens are fundamentally different from spaces. the two are not semantically equivalent.
mircea_popescu: this is like starting a new paragraph on double \n and also on double l.
phf: no no, the reason why i bring up space is that you basically have two things that k&s can play with: hyphenation and elastic spaces. the two are balanced in some magical way
mircea_popescu: anyway, re the naggum quote above : a better statement would be to say that every problem comes with an iq functional which could be approximated as a (x-fiq)^3 + b(x-fiq) ; the a, b and fiq are parameters of the problem, the x is where the solver's iq goes. if his iq is lower than the fiq required by the problem, his "work" comes out negative.
mircea_popescu: the rules for adding multiple xn together are more complex than straight addition, but not complex enough to manage a positive out of negatives.
phf: when you eliminate hyphenation as a concern, you're just left with elastic spaces, but you don't have those in monospace plain text. you just have full sized spaces, but their granularity is so high as to be almost useless
mircea_popescu: phf a 120 col line will contain a number of words distriburted around 23.7 ; this means your spaces being elastic works to some degree. i will hold up trilema as an example of this, would you say elastic spaces are not working for it ?
phf: elastic spaces in this case means variable width spaces. you can't have that in plain text. you can either have foo_bar or foo__bar or ...
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 19:23 ben_vulpes: > i haven't tried this test yet << and you don't know that it only works on the feeble minded, literally anyone else is going to see exactly what you're doing and give the canned response that you want: "the patriarchy keeps women down and what is really called for is demoting and docking mens wages, and promoting science education for little girls, and generally eradicating the constructed gender binary so
phf: might need a screenshot, i'm not seeing that on my machine (or possibly also being dense)
mircea_popescu: (upon actual measurement, notrly, 1st 368 to 381 vs 2nd 186 to 197 vs 3rd 232 to 242 ; so 13, 11, 10 etc. )
mircea_popescu: (last line 661 to 669, so 8 ; from 13 to 8 the variation indeed is 160% so hah!
phf: right, but you can't do that in plain text file
mircea_popescu: phf incidentally, which 3 pages did you mean ? xach search returns like 50
mircea_popescu: (+if my articles aren't plaintext what are they bonus)
phf: oh oh, algo (and the machinery) being discussed is for hard line reflow. (you run M-q in emacs and it'll reflow the paragraph for you with newlines introduced)
mircea_popescu: the day i want the machine to write text for me ima just buy all the girls strapons and they can fuck each other too
mircea_popescu: while i watch mad max the future or whatever the fuck i'd do in this weird crapsack world
mircea_popescu: why not also the interjection "you know ?" or i guess "mon"
mircea_popescu: but i guess if emacs feels the sentence needs more random gibberish instilled who am i to not permit it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you seriously \ out oo-cpp gnarl to 80 ?
mircea_popescu: what if one dayu you have to read cpp videocard stuff ? what THEN ?
mircea_popescu: i tell you if the shit was multiple lines per line i would just exudate my lungs through the skinpores on my back out of sheer fury.
phf: well, luckily mp doesn't produce v patches, so this a non-issue
mircea_popescu: so you want "\t\t\t\t\tcsRef<iMeshWrapperIterator> objectIter = engine->GetNearbyMeshes(mesh->GetMovable()->GetSectors()->Get(0), oldpos + boundingBox.GetCenter(), boundingBox.GetSize().Norm() * 2);" to be instead
mircea_popescu: \t\t\t\t\tcsRef<iMeshWrapperIterator> objectIter = engine->\
mircea_popescu: GetNearbyMeshes(mesh->GetMovable()->GetSectors()->Get(0), oldpos + boundingBox.\
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:45 phf: in a proper program 80 col is an indicator of s/n, density and all kinds of lateral properties, that can be communicated between professionals, because you can know ahead of time, what you're dealing with by shape, and have a rough estimate for the token count
mircea_popescu: but at issue here aere the comments ; and make no mistake about it -- since we're doing the whole literate thing this is very important.
phf: so a dangle like that is an indicator. in fact a dangle like that usually exists in programs that don't 80 column. but sometimes a dangle like that might just be necessary
mircea_popescu: phf i've little problem with people writing code in whatever line lengths they want to. but comments of arbitrary cut are infuriating (though admittedly 80col not nearly so much as 50whatever)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unlike said contest, this snipped had real world impact!
ben_vulpes: now that we've done indentation, how about aligning variables on the right side of = operators
ben_vulpes: or even aligning the = operators themselves
phf: c had a somewhat right idea with ident :p you feed a proggy in, it force formats it for you
mircea_popescu: this is not even a bad argument. fixwidth speeds scan for code for sure.
mircea_popescu: is the conclusion of this standards board discussion that "fu mp, live with 80col comments, we're not gonna reflow shit for you" then ?
phf: mircea_popescu: 80col is such an old holiwar you're risking myself or ascii moving in a backyard and building defensive possitions, like those boys they bring from iraq do. "son, you can come out now, we showed those no break somsabeaches"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 17:31 mircea_popescu: esthlos please let your paragraphs flow. please.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 19:58 ben_vulpes: yes i know, in ro
ben_vulpes: i'm still waiting on my three secret beakers
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 asciilifeform: ( likbez : all you need for the mythical holy grail, 'fast iron rsa', is a very large-bitnessed adder-cum-barrelshifter and a few storage registers that can be programmatically shuffled between. )
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 BingoBoingo: In other news from the price is right department: "The personal information of more than a billion Indians stored in the world's largest biometric database can be bought online for less than $8, according to an investigation by an Indian newspaper."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that -- yes, can have, but cripled like so
a111: Logged on 2017-09-02 19:42 asciilifeform: biggest ice part is the ICE40HX8K
mircea_popescu: now let's see here : "Meltdown breaks all security assumptions given by the CPU’s memory isolation capabilities." vs "So given that there is in fact no secure memory implementation no matter how much it would be useful if there was one, EuCrypt takes instead the honest and practical approach of making it clear that it uses plain memory and nothing else."
mircea_popescu: who's ahead and who;s behind in the great technological race of 2010s ?
mircea_popescu: note to journahos of the future : include a plain statement of the above fact in your opening salvo or else.
mircea_popescu: i'm too lazy to dig up where mp says he uses old amds, but w/e.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:19 ben_vulpes: btw how come nobody in the "stop rape culture!!11" world has done an indiestarter to build the vagina dentata from neal stephenson's snow crash?
mircea_popescu: btw, vafgina dentata is from freud not from john smith.
mircea_popescu: (and there was some idiot sheila from down below years ago ; i recall lulzing in the logs as to how this wonder will drive rapist to a) probe and b) beat into a squirming, faceless mess any bitch dumb enough to go around with it)
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 21:16 phf: a forced popup that warns you that you're sending to
http from
https, but there's no about:config to disable the popup. 9 years of "ffs put a boolean in configs, you fucks"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 22:30 asciilifeform: 'top 2 bits and bottom bit are ALWAYS 1!' << asciilifeform still doesn't get why to weld the next-to-highest
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 11 x 11 = 1001 ; 10 x 10 = 0100
mircea_popescu: the ONLY way to make sure the top bit of a product is set, is to have BOTH top bits in BOTH factors set.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
mircea_popescu: yes well, we're looking at ~10 second m-r run per item, so like half a day to produce a pair of primes.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:01 asciilifeform: why not stick to the ancestral 80col, folx??
mircea_popescu: any of 6 bits not being set -> chucked item ; 2^6 = 64 so 1 in 64 ie 1.5% or so pass.
deedbot: kook00 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: i'm dealing with "four rounds of m-r and a 5th fixed with 2, so as to fix the cone of blindness" bs and you want me to care about the 2047th bit ?
mircea_popescu: dja understand motherfucking koch fixed one of the witnesses in mr ?
mircea_popescu: what nsa gains from being able to rely on 2 rather than 44444444444444444 is anyone's fucking guess
mircea_popescu: "oh, 2 is a great witness for odd composites" "so would have been any other even number" "yes but... umm..."
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:39 asciilifeform: generally my page will in the end have ~equal area of pencilmark and printerola
mircea_popescu: holy hell i lived to see the end of the 4th day of 2018 logs.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 16:36 asciilifeform: let's model the ideal prime-shitter. it would be an item that takes integer N , of whatever bitness, and produce the Nth prime ( or eggog if the Nth prime is bigger than the register bitness permitted. )
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:12 asciilifeform: right, 'engineer' is more a psychological term to asciilifeform , rather like rpg character class, than diploma.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no method to produce nth prime.
mircea_popescu: it'll be funny 5mn years from now, when we're all sitting around with whatever pools & eggnogs of the future and rsa still stands, undaunted, in preference of ~everything else.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you have a different problem : even if "no bit of input is more influential than other" i STILL want to put in no less than 2045 bits of input ; AND get out no MORE! than 2048 bit long prime.
mircea_popescu: if your magic maker uses say 2044 bits of input, therefore you have half as many possible states than i do!
mircea_popescu: consider : mp-prime takes 2045 bits from trng, spits out after some wrangling 2048 bit prime number ; meanwhile alf-prime takes 45 bits from trng, spits out after some wrangling 2048 bit prime.
mircea_popescu: even if i admit this objection, which i dunno i should but let's, for fellowship -- 2037 still not much room to work with
mircea_popescu: moreover! while there's just as many integers with the 1337th bit set as there are with it nul, nevertheless it's trivially not the case that there's just as many 2048 bit prime numbers with it set as there are with it null.
mircea_popescu: ie, prime numbers themselves do not follow this 'no bit of input is more influential over the output than any other bit' rule.
mircea_popescu: no known pattern ; but no homogenity either. there's always an even count of integers in a given bitsize ; but not necessarily an even count of primes.
mircea_popescu: "go and read some basic books" -> "read, re-read <em>and understand</em> TAOCP" ? or what, add K&R in there ? steele's 2002 thing ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman technically it's incorrect to say "6 bits will always be 1" ; it's the case that the first and the last bits of N are always 1 ; and a further number of bits are subtly affected (ie, biased) by the p, q masks.
deedbot: kook00 voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> holy hell i lived to see the end of the 4th day of 2018 logs. << ikr!
mircea_popescu: "doom is inevitable, BTW. mankind will die out, planet earth will be vaporized when Sol goes nova, if not sooner, and then Common Lisp will have to acknowledge defeat to the unwavering hostility of the universe. for those of us who plan to become immortal, this is a serious concern." <<< 1999 naggum was apparently planning for immortality ?
mircea_popescu: other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ey perceive it) blame all their (ample) shortcomings on the hulk barnacled while claiming all the (scant) benefit as own.
mircea_popescu: these letters from a time before empire-of-idiots was formalized and understood as such are about as fascinating as a child's experience from before it understood any mechanics at all.
mircea_popescu: anyway, thinking about this whole "fsf was an attempt to *finally* bring about socialist utopia through a fettering of everyone's access to knowledge while open source was an attempt to nevermindthatjustkillM$already leading to java-for-browser because microsoft invented a c++ market etc" broad but really mostly correct summary, the one most striking aspect is that somehow the job of the modder (ie, guy that adds those snazzy
mircea_popescu: chrome tailpipes on already made car/pc/whatever cxhassis) somehow ended up called "designer".
mircea_popescu: motherfucking mother of isis, the act of arraying buttons together in a guy is no design!
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 04:41 mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
diana_coman: which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
☟︎ diana_coman: not that 4 characters make much difference in any case
diana_coman: ah, should have been precise there: they don't make a difference for me at this stage; I can stick to 80 just as I can stick to 76 really
diana_coman purposefully gets used to all sorts of different things, makes it easy to switch between them really
diana_coman: I suppose I'm not much of a train basically
diana_coman: I suspect it's more the investment in the habit really; printer might be *one form* but it doesn't convince me much in itself
diana_coman: so basically columns newspaper style, as I was saying yesterday, yes; inevitably, if 80 cols, ofc
diana_coman: anyways, it's settled, 80cols it will have to be
diana_coman: as a side note, that's precisely why I did *not* adopt emacs in the end despite liking it quite a lot when met it at uni: it was VERY useful indeed but the sort of useful that was too close to addictive for my liking essentially
diana_coman: that might be my brand of weird only though
diana_coman: as long as it doesn't basically cripple me to everything else, I can use it, sure
diana_coman: no, in the sense of "80 cols or NOTHING ELSE"; same thing there: can work with emacs or NOTHING ELSE
diana_coman: are you saying that 50x improvement is really due totally to emacs being to any other editor what pen is over feather? because otherwise Nx longer is exactly "nothing else" when N is large enough
diana_coman: well, I never used slime so I can't comment
diana_coman: note though that we were talking emacs, not slime; enfin
diana_coman: yes, so you need emacs because slime; that sounds like a lot of snails already,lol
diana_coman: aha; so no argument in fact; basically you say "I need emacs for what I'm doing because slime"; I say "so far I'm happily not cornered by anything into using emacs"
shinohai: "GPS provides several levels of customization, from simple preference dialogs to powerful scripting capability through the Python language" <<< why?
shinohai: Seems another scripting language would have been chosen, but meh.
shinohai: lisp works as a scripting language, neh
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 16076.28, vol: 15424.74126164 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 16047.0, vol: 47384.63064283 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16000.0, vol: 3644.58814136 | Volume-weighted last average: 16051.2185715
BingoBoingo: And the registrations are starting to trickle in. I R SRS BSNS NAO!
BingoBoingo: Except no "nao" doesn't read as the same thing it did pre Uruguay
BingoBoingo: Dammit, I'm not going to be able to mispell now for creative effect anymore am I
BingoBoingo: Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 14:02 asciilifeform: funny how they put the 'cloud storage' in the bail denial affidavit, but have not yet even bothered to parallelconstruct some reason ~other than it~ for how the d00d could have been caught.
mod6: not bad! i implemented the pill to calculate the press path from a given leaf. seems to be working pretty well. i ran all my automated tests, passed 50/54 without incident. Four of the tests are pretty complex test cases where we basically yank one of the vpatches out of the middle of a vtree, then test to ensure that we avoid that where required.
mod6: Since now the press path is calculated slightly different now than blindly shoveling in the flow, those tests needed some adjustments on their assertions of expected output.
mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
☟︎☟︎ mod6: yeah, i actually did add a 'check_required' routine that is semi-related to this. for instance, when that error happened, it was because some guy didn't have `sha512sum'. so the check_required subroutine will now run first, and check to ensure that a list of system biniaries are available before anything happens. and if not, exits.
mod6: There are better error messages, or averting a silent fail that will also help here. I haven't gotten that far on that part yet.
mod6: wanna see the experimental patch i'm workin on?
mod6: the 'print_press_path' subroutine is, for the time, for debugging only.
shinohai: I seem to be patched in and basic functions working, so sing out when ready to test mod6 o7
mod6: no prob. thanks asciilifeform
mod6: so goal is to fix this problem. then carry on and document all the rules the thing has in place. this way, others can try to build in those rules we've discussed in here to their vtrons without having to fish them all out of 2 years of logs.
mod6: that's later tho. first, just gotta get this fixed, then we can move on to greater things.
ben_vulpes: mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c?
ben_vulpes: it is a minor thing that i occasionally trip over
ben_vulpes: right, i shelled out to mktmpdir in mine
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:18 BingoBoingo: Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
lobbes: In other incidental preguntas: mircea_popescu, can you recommend good "introductory" reading on the subject of thought classification? It seems like the obvious fundamental to improving my cognitive processes
☟︎ deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: still working on my solution to ch4
ben_vulpes: it does, this is my first encounter with a stack machine tho so thinking is proceeding slowly
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c? << if you CTRL+C the thing, it really can't get rid of it. you're expected to clean this up on your own so the vtron doesn't remove something it wasn't suppoesd to.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have not, believe it or not
mod6: otherwise, my vtron handles the creation and deletion of that .gnupgtmp dir on its own.
mod6: im pretty sure we all had this discussion once upon a time, and it's only doing now, what we agreed to do before. I can go and dig for that.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: not rare, was just never beaten with one
ben_vulpes: had to go beat self with everything i was never beaten with starting in my early twenties when the republic kicked off
a111: Logged on 2015-11-05 02:08 asciilifeform: -- a unique thing that never was and never will be again.
ben_vulpes: mod6: i don't actually recall any agreement on the topic, you did yours one way and i another, and i cannot recall how asciilifeform's original handled this
mod6: im getting pulled off here... i'ma try to circle back to this but...
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: an aborted run of vtron should not be able to put a caltrop for subsequent run to die on. this is imho elementary.
mod6: make_tmpdir($tdir);
mod6: remove_tmpdir($tdir);
mod6: that's basically what happens ^
mod6: and if you ^C the thing mid-way through the execution, you'll never hit remove_tmpdir
mod6: now, i can add an attempt to remove the thing before we even begin main(), but i thought we had discussed this. i'll have to dig up the old thread.
mod6: i don't have a chance right this moment to do that, will look tho when i can
mod6: sub make_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `mkdir -p $dir && chmod 0700 $dir` if !-d $dir or die "$dir exists! $!";
mod6: sub remove_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `rm -rf $dir` if -d $dir;
mod6: the keyring that gpg needs to run
mod6: my $tdir = get_homedir() . "/.gnupgtmp";
ben_vulpes: is mktemp widely installed enough to be used here?
ben_vulpes: iphones apparently vulnerable to SPECTRE too, hilariously
ben_vulpes: it all strikes me as so very silly on the surface but i have a weird lens of not having thought about any of the related shit until ~2013 and even then only through republican eyes
ben_vulpes: i've never been burdened with the "This Is How Things Are" of the c-machine
ben_vulpes: i only started thinking about compute because of bitcoin, and shortly after i started thinking about it in earnest (like maybe a month, six weeks something like that) you showed up in #b-a and /even at that point/ were talking about eg trinary circuits and computing fabric
ben_vulpes: then at that point the historical perspective was obviously necessary and i've simply never seen modern arch's as anything other than complexity madness in search of itty bitty performance gains on systems nobody can actually reason about
mircea_popescu: in other lulz from the road, "nombre ?" "credible" "apellido ?" "justin".
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: is there some way of doing iteration with the opcodes from ch4 ?
ben_vulpes: hey man i only figured out how conditionals worked today
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 09:56 diana_coman: which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
mircea_popescu: seems atm we uncovered the deep limit on literate code.
mircea_popescu: code and comments do not, actually mix ; the fault is entirely of bad but entrenched habits of code writers.
mircea_popescu: "we are incapable to reflow and here's a magic number instead" differentiates monkey from man
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if true, this is == "code is not worth either writing or reading"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 13:41 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'best thing is never to have programmed at all' or how did socrates put it.
ben_vulpes: want to corroborate what appear to be facts before plowing down a possibly retarded path though
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's no possible solution here ; i expect the defacto result will be that patches will consist of code, wrapped 80, including 0 comments, plus blogposts, consisting of commentary, with some haphazard code reference.
mircea_popescu: this is a sad state of affairs, as it limits v utility drastically ; neverthless -- commentary will be ok, long predated either v or code. code is more fragile.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and write too little of them and too sparse and lose out to the other variant in the end.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason your father+grandfather haven't amounted to as much of a fart as a workable os.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway you turn it, the concept of magic number's not defensible.
mod6: asciilifeform picture scene from film 'idiocracy', where hero gets 'his name', 'Not Sure', tattooed on forehead << his arm, but yeah, great movie.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somehow you jump from "my printer is shit, doesn't work properly" to "either magic number or throw out printer"
☟︎ deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: in any case, here's the logic : the proximate cause of the failure of "computer science" to amount to 0 (not epsilon, 0) since its inception is strictly due to poor treatment of comments as 2nd class item in code.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: until this is resolved, the perennial results will repeat.
mircea_popescu: it's actually SO BAD that people go re-implement the same damned X thing for the 90th time as a substitute of commentary ; and nobody looking understands wtf that is.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself ) << yeah, concurrent runs of my vtron are a no-go.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> second , as in the case discussed in the thread, if a run aborts, it creates a mine for next run to step on. << try to realize that this is on-purpose. im certain that we've had this discussion before and what exists is the outcome of that discussion.
mircea_popescu: this is the problem. you can't disagree with my theory and i have no practical solution for your pain.
mircea_popescu: as i say -- i see no way out here ; we'll end up with the v-code + blog-commentary ostrich-camel and god help us./
ben_vulpes: mod6: you gotta quote chapter and verse from the logs to support "outcome of that discussion".
mod6: i know, i haven't had a chance to look yet.
mod6: anyway, im fine with changing whatever, just as long as we all agree.
ben_vulpes: logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory.
a111: Logged on 2015-12-25 23:10 asciilifeform: because, again, the whole 'plain text' jwzism and the attendant retardation. somehow 'lines' are a thing.
mod6: and the details of what the change is to do are clear so I can implement them as such.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which part of trilema is plaintext ? the part where it says fuckyoui or the part where it says fuckyou((norly)) ?
ben_vulpes: mod6: make a disposable tempdir like stans original and my port. i don't know whence this 'agree', stan's original was clear enough.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory. << i feel ya. if you wanna help me dig, that'd be awesome.
mod6: my vtron has been discussed very much over the last 2+ years. i remember many disucssions where rules popped out.
☟︎ mod6: i hope you're not trying to say that im simply making this up
gabriel_laddel: aite. but ftr you can ASSIGN me stuff that I will do. eg, leaving CA, finding job. Eventually was convinced.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: honestly why should anyone give a fuck to improve you.
trinque: what are you, someone's girlfriend here?
ben_vulpes: mod6: it's not a personal attack, i disagree that i agreed that v.pl was doing the Right Thing in leaving ~/.gnupgtmp hanging around
trinque: who gives a shit. I made mine because it was trivial and I didn't want to hear about it anymore
trinque: to date the guy has produced zero anyone uses, and I dunno why anyone entertains the larping and dick-pulling
trinque: asciilifeform: I don't need extra reasons to hate the useless
trinque: guy pops in to give monologues about his psychological needs and that's it, and was ever it
ben_vulpes: point also is not absolute age but years bouncing off the republic
trinque: either to affirm some nonsense or surface against which to act out
trinque: he was almost, maybe, sort of going to do an archiver and pdf-to-texter
☟︎ trinque: where's that, or was that just a paste one day when he needed a self-esteem boost
gabriel_laddel: never pdf to text, but yes, archiver, NN via FG, RSA impl in CL, yes linux distro
trinque: I dunno how this one idiot kid slipped through the crucify-the-useless process
trinque: gabriel_laddel: so where the fuck are these then.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform sorry, this is tasks I HAVE ACCEPTED onto stack.
gabriel_laddel: the order I was anticipating was: M release for tmsr (free, obo), then NNFG, then RSA. lobbes has done/ is doing archiver
gabriel_laddel: training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them
☟︎ trinque: this is jam-tomorrow in asciilifeform's parlance eh?
gabriel_laddel: I never got a chance bc fighting all the idiots in CA myself. Same with archiver.Got banned before was able to host in house someone OK'd me for.
trinque: I lived in Portland among the pantsuit cunts
trinque: left. ben_vulpes also left.
trinque: what kind of appeal is this. "oh but I have limitations"
trinque: heh, so then. quit stimulants, dumbass. and I'll consider removing the negrate.
jhvh1: shinohai: Error: "step" is not a valid command.
trinque: hey after mircea_popescu's various whallops on me about weed, I gave up daily caffeine even.
☟︎ jhvh1: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
trinque: wiser folks hitting you on the head is a kindness.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform neh! i have a magic box, into which i pour the transcendent substance that makes trilema. it comes out as ascii yes, but how is it plain.
mircea_popescu: formally : a stackless, hapless grammar incapable of recursion operating upon a certain finite symbol list.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect i should have said single stack.
mircea_popescu: that is the "plaintext", that comes out as the other plaintext, displayed (via the ~yet other~ plaintext, the html)
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
pehbot: asciilifeform: 5CF3CFFB385F801408DFF1BF9D66B57C4B5C2ED8E896811D36162BD33B626D7E
mircea_popescu: which is why the whole "with mine owne eyes" screams were all about re previous pass of this, gpg-plaintext.
mircea_popescu: i sadly lacked the formalism to usefully express it then. but now -- have.
mod6: so previously, and im still digging in the logs...
mod6: the idea behind leaving the .gnupgtmp around after execution, is there because i wanted it to be there. not weather this is the Right Thing or not.
mod6: its basically a failure state -- .gnupgtmp should only be around if something FAILED.
mircea_popescu: mod6 any particular reason to want ? aid debugging ? or ?
mod6: and if it did fail, then perhaps one can go and look at what went on -- at the time, there were a lot of seals that didn't verify for instance.
mod6: i shouldn't say a lot. from time to time, one of alf's previous key ones would creep into ones flow or whatever, and you may want to check for yourself weather it verifies or not. or what gnupg might have been up to while executing v.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i suspect the idea is sound, but maybe the posixism of "single fixed file" dun serve
mod6: anyway, if you see a .gnupgtmp, something failed. either the software failed, or the user interrupted the thing. either way, the responsibility has been on the user to determine if he should delete ~/.gnupgtmp or not.
mod6: now, for the concurrent part... now that's something I never did consider.
mod6: before i ever 'green light' that kinda use of my vtron, i'd certainly like to test it myself etc. and ya, that dir would have to be unique.
mod6: maybe mktmpdir is sound for that. however, i remember discussing that before as well..and one fear that i had is that if you use mktmpdir, then you have a /tmp/23429adfsew32 dir.
mod6: which worries me about /tmp being flushed mid, or at anytime during execution.
mod6: sorry, lemme read back here. was just trying to type there.
trinque: I don't think there's ever a case where , yeap
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: afaik this dun actually happen on any known unix << this the rub tho. have to make sure that it actually /NEVER/ happens. i can't have people failing in anyway with this thing.
mod6: the good news is, hopefully, your pgptron will be built into any new vtrons
mod6: anyway, we'll figure something out. that part im not worried about.
mod6: it sounds like my idea of "have something of a corpus to look at after failure" isn't as handy as simply just throwing it out.
mod6: and i don't think people want 1Mb of shit dumped to stdout
mod6: and here's where we come full circle. :]
mod6: i gotta find these logs. im actually now convinced that we've discussed this very item not just once, but maybe even 3 or 4 times.
mod6: anyway, i appreciate all the feedback. its obvious that there is passion to get this part of my vtron right.
mod6: lemme break off here for a minute, i'll keep digging up the logs to prove we talked this over.
mircea_popescu: goes well with the "didn't even afford paralelconstruct". this is some seriously low effort "job".
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
a111: Logged on 2014-02-19 19:41 asciilifeform: russian folk rhyme: 'Дедушка в поле гранату нашел. Взял он ее, к сельсовету пошел. Дернул колечко, кинул в окно. Дедушка старый — ему все равно.'
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
a111: Logged on 2016-10-14 16:10 kmalkki: apu2 (with AMD PSP) does respond properly to JTAG IDCODE
trinque: I'm sure it doesn't work. meant only to marketing-work
mod6: It seems that asciilifeform has been saying the same thing all along.
mod6: And I've taken a bit of a different direction, perhaps because of 'File::Tempdir' or some nonsense.
mod6: So here's what I'll do: I'll revisit this, and try to come up with a unique tempdir. This tempdir is to be used exactly once. Created at run time. Removed at the end of run time. If execution fails or is interrupted, nothing will be done. It'll be left hanging there until the user removes it manually.
mod6: in the case of failure, i could try to remove the tmpdir during the 'Death()' call or something. But with interrupted execution, there's no way to know when the interrupt is coming. Nothing to do about it here.
ben_vulpes: it is fine to leave the tempdir in place so long as it is uniquely named
ben_vulpes: the important thing is that it not be the same tempdir every time so that interrupted executions don't block the next execution
mod6: Ok, will look into a better way to handle this. I appreciate your passionate want to make this better.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
mod6: then ill dig into the tmpdir thing. i want to ensure that the bug fix i've made is correct before I proceed.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
ben_vulpes: dude The20YearIRCloud the fuck even is the point of a bouncer that's constantly disconnecting
ben_vulpes: i thought that's what irccloud advertised
ben_vulpes: a modern IRC client that keeps you connected, with none of the baggage
ben_vulpes: possibly just normal idiot browserclient!
ben_vulpes: i am having just a terrible time with the else-clause pushing a zero to the stack
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
pehbot: asciilifeform: bar0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
ben_vulpes: gotta have working model in head first before patching!
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:07 phf: using the boolean we execute an if/else branch which either swaps the two numbers and drops the top most '_, or drops the top most without swapping _. the final drop _ is an artifact of conditional implementation that always leaves a value on the stack.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
ben_vulpes: well, gonna reread vpatch for ch04 and then submit with my seal but sure, gimme a sec
ben_vulpes: i haven't bitten off the patch yet, and might not get to it by the time you release ch6, this all takes me a lot longer than phf or lobbes
ben_vulpes: oh sorry sorry, i meant a solution to the ch4 puzzle
ben_vulpes: nah, dun expect such of me; i draft plans for field construction of catapaults i don't invent them
ben_vulpes: i'll noodle on it as appropriate, sure
ben_vulpes: (ch 4 puzzle accessible to noob as well, but still took me much grinding of headgears)
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000030000000000000000000000000000000000
ben_vulpes: oh man i didn't even test against hex values
ben_vulpes: i know that it shouldn't, but i do like to actually test things
ben_vulpes: !A .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: ben_vulpes: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD
pehbot: asciilifeform: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why `int' for EOF and `Integer' for Sadness_Code ?
shinohai: It's Alabama journalism, so don't expect too much ....
ben_vulpes: very specific with the accusation history too, in the office is where she accused him!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 trinque: why not have one file, manifest, and you edit it, then vdiff the whole shebang.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ?
trinque: question there wasn't just moves. it was how to ever have two patches with same parent, that edited different files, end up same item.
trinque: the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
☟︎ trinque: you edit db.cpp. I edit main.cpp. how does someone now use both of those pieces of work in a 3rd patch.
☟︎ ben_vulpes: what irks me about this is that one can make a patch that depends on a state of the codebase that is not a valid press.
ben_vulpes: or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches.
☟︎ trinque: how does this not expand to still more antecedents dragged into child patch as time goes on?
trinque: patch A1 and A2 are peers, happened to different files with same starting codebase state. you proposed writing a B that encompases whatever changes plus the bodies of A1 and A2.
trinque: you do not see how it's fundamentally retarded to consider db.cpp a distinct thing, rather than the scroll "trb" as the *thing*
trinque: db.cpp is nothing by itself, other than "ono this file was too big"
trinque: sure it is; I proposed before that the antecedent hash ought to be the hash of the concatenation
trinque: to date no one has critiqued that view directly.
trinque: I do not need to edit the fucking thing to depend on a particular state of it
trinque: I am not going to sidestep onto that point. I made one, have anything to say to it?
ben_vulpes: the point that trinque is making is that you can change other files in such a way that ruins maxint_locks
trinque: we come to a deep political disagreement there
trinque: the more constraints against idiocy the better.
trinque: there can be multiple trees just fine in that world
trinque: hasn't yet been any reason someone benefits by having your edit to maxlocks but having done something batshit to say, a file db.cpp depends upon
ben_vulpes: i'm going to tap out, will wait for mircea_popescu to pour some more fuel on this one.
ben_vulpes: can dig trench here or ten feet sideways, literally does not matter to me.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: arguing has honed how i see the problem at least
ben_vulpes: not going to go break everything, at least today.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:48 asciilifeform: srsly i dunget why all of you lot so much want to break v. it WORKS.
ben_vulpes: ehehehentirely unrelatedly, asciilifeform, what's with the odd capitalization of mUx in ch4?