asciilifeform: ( why ? e.g. naggum's canonical 'if all you need is for something to "work", and you don't give a damn when and how it fails, C++ and Perl is for you. if you care deeply about not having your software fail, you would naturally feel a correspondingly deep sense of betrayal from the authors of both languages -- because they make it so damn hard to express the fact that you do care about the failure modes.' )
Matthew: danielpbarron: i was just trying to get some free cyrpto
Matthew: and hear about a church
diana_coman: heh, add to that the fact that I specifically got interested in computers initially for the very promise (to my mind at the time at least) that they are... reliable; because programmable, see? such silly 17-yo mea
asciilifeform: the free cyrpto is three doors down, Matthew
danielpbarron: Matthew, register your RSA key with deedbot
Matthew: idk how
Matthew: forget the free coin
danielpbarron: "tsk"
Matthew: tell me about the church
Matthew: i heard about u on EfnetNews 47
Matthew: also spoke to u for a second the other night
Matthew: in #efnetnews
danielpbarron: well i don't wanna bore the channel with stuff you can easily learn from atruechurch.info
danielpbarron: i was never in that channel, btw
asciilifeform: diana_coman: picture, if su survived, you might be designing votingcircuit cpu for e.g. 'buran'
phf: wut, half the horrible code i've seen is from actual engineers. usually unstructructured reams of potato code like they were taught to write matlab or fortran
Matthew: 'dpb
Matthew: 'dpb' was an imposter ?
danielpbarron: i'm dpb on efnet, but i was never in that channel
asciilifeform: phf: lemme guess, their beards, were not white ?
Matthew: where did i speak to u at
danielpbarron: lrh chan prolly
Matthew: no
Matthew: i dont go there
Matthew: oh well it dont matter
diana_coman: phf might be onto something in that functional programming was not mandatory for instance; I took the course because I wanted to but I could have had no idea of it at all even, easily
shinohai: From the dept. of Intel related lulzfest: http://archive.is/wvW7m
asciilifeform: diana_coman: consider, not only 'programmable' but theoretically the only 'indestructible' machine yet built, where you can (at least in principle) replace ALL of the wear parts without stopping
phf: their beards (and lack of) were of wide wariety. sure there are hypothetical ee's from 70s who switched to programming micros in the 80s who write god tier C, but bulk of them is not it
asciilifeform: shinohai: prettygreat
diana_coman: fwiw I take asciilifeform to mean the engineering approach vs current "programming" approach; that has little to do with "engineer" diploma or not,sadly
asciilifeform: right, 'engineer' is more a psychological term to asciilifeform , rather like rpg character class, than diploma.
Matthew: http://trilema.com/2016/cia-factbook-the-most-serene-republic/
Matthew: you guys wrote this yourself right
asciilifeform: Matthew: that's mircea_popescu's www.
Matthew: oh
diana_coman: where his very self tends to write too, yes
Matthew: ok fair enough
diana_coman: asciilifeform, theoretically yes; at that time though I did not even go that far and it still proved to be wishful thinking
diana_coman: shinohai, lol!
shinohai: "We did it reddit!" in 3...
mircea_popescu: dun dun dun!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763733 << consider the concept of "turkey dollars" ; http://trilema.com/2012/lets-dig-a-little-deeper-into-this-entire-deflation-problem/☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 15:18 ReadErr: hmm
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, what else is there ? usg wrote its fanfic itself too.
mircea_popescu: imagine the lulz, "circumspect" reporter going into white house alt-reality distortion field festival, "hmm... you guys came up with this shit yourselves, right ?"
mircea_popescu: yeah, i expect so. certainly they didn't go about collecting best-kim-ung's oppinions.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763745 << /me dutifully follows, and duly falls upon "2) What was not implemented until recently was functions returning unconstrained arrays. This is a very tricky thing to do, as I'll describe in a moment. The week before Tri-Ada, I added a temporary, kludgy implementation to GNAT. About the only thing it had to say for itself is that it worked, but it creates serious memory leaks. It☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 15:33 asciilifeform: !~later tell spyked http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2026&cpage=1#comment-18564
mircea_popescu: is not intended as a final implementation." (the original 80wrap braindamage has been fixed). I CAN SCARCELY APPREHEND ETC
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763753 << right, "fascist" is "what pantsuit calls non-pantsuit". ye olde http://trilema.com/2013/racists-and-socialists/ story.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 15:55 phf: heh "Classification of Dugin as a fascist is justified, regardless of the fact that today the MGU professor frequently speaks not as a primitive ethnocentrist or biological racist. (...) By «fascist» we understand the «generic» meaning of the concept, used in comparatory research of contemporary right-wing extremism by such well-known historians-comparativists [etc.]
mircea_popescu: aaand in other "ugly teeth run in the family" news, http://78.media.tumblr.com/2620b35ac849769e1e1c6e8b9ad7416e/tumblr_my5xgeZoPf1rmux9jo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the secondary stack thing worx correctly in modern-day gnat. but i banned it. ( because it makes reading disasmed binariolade harder; reasoning about the semantics of the latter -- also harder; and consumes very scarce, on small embedded chips, memory , imho needlessly )
mircea_popescu: but WHY would someone involved DO THIS. it's like dentist going "and here's a squirrel i put wooden teeth into. they were plywood and didn't work very well, it's not intended for geriatric care"
mircea_popescu: motherfucker, why the pointless animal cruelty! not like you didn't know plywood dun work for this application.
asciilifeform: presumably was done to implement 100% of the standard.
mircea_popescu: standard had memorly leaks in it ?
asciilifeform: which , as written , requires secondarystackism
asciilifeform: it isn't a leak, as such, isn't a heap
shinohai: Comedy that ben_vulpes might enjoy: http://archive.is/9gkfT "If we see more female figures on traffic lights that might also have a positive impact on changing the way we view the world."
mircea_popescu: now THAT is an example of "item you should not have to fix, you should not make in first place". no memory leak ever was naturally occuring. it's not like indigestion, it's like nails hammered into skull.
ben_vulpes: > memorly << prett good coinage
mircea_popescu: shinohai maybe if young and topless.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes :p
asciilifeform: again secondarystack is not implemented as an open-ended (unboundedly growing) item
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: in any adatron that i know of
asciilifeform: so it is incorrect to say 'memory leak'.
mircea_popescu: man's own words.
mircea_popescu: i quoed.
asciilifeform: just like it isn't ebola, or tin pest.
ben_vulpes: shinohai: i'll put it on the budget lolz shelf
asciilifeform: oh hah he does describe how his managed to leak.
mircea_popescu: "it worked, but it created serious memory leaks" is, of and by itself, diagnosable string. not even indicative, dispositive outright!
asciilifeform: ( failed to unwind the stack )
asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu has it
asciilifeform: ( though will point out, consequences of this type of leak, is early death of the proggy, rather than 'ballons into red dwarf' a la prb or firefox )
mircea_popescu: it's not even "i wrote something that DIDNT WORK". that, is one thing. here, he wrote something, he evaluated it as "works", BUT.
ben_vulpes: what is with these retards and their untestable hypotheses anyways, "this might blablabla the whateverwhatever". nigga can you not design an experiment? or might it be that the necessary experiments are actually impossible given the impossibility of baking metrics and disambiguating confounding factors?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~whole field consists of 'it works, BUT...'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what concerns me is the man's self-evaluator. "i went to battle with the electric fence ; i won, but..."
ben_vulpes: in other news, lowtax state of wa remarkably efficient in stark comparison to hightax state of or.
asciilifeform: and i find it especially infuriating when they slither into islands of sanity like ada
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mostly because nobody says ~above.
asciilifeform: and see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764397 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:02 asciilifeform: ( why ? e.g. naggum's canonical 'if all you need is for something to "work", and you don't give a damn when and how it fails, C++ and Perl is for you. if you care deeply about not having your software fail, you would naturally feel a correspondingly deep sense of betrayal from the authors of both languages -- because they make it so damn hard to express the fact that you do care about the failure modes.' )
mircea_popescu: hang on i'm working through them monsterlogs.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it could also be that there's so much metrage of dead air to fill and so very little to fill it with. "this may be an entertaining talkshow ; it isn't, of course, but... WSOD!!!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764095 << scheuristic, ie, the schelling heuristic. like a point, except a heuristic. btw, is the point clear there ? not that "epicycles weren't abolished", but that "the substantial difference between the real item, ie, epicycles, which were so abolished, and the pantsuitology item, ie clothespin, which never existed, is exactly of the nature of defeated-enemy vs defeated-strawman" ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but now merge these factual observations, which are correct BUT SUPERFICIAL, with your own knowledge on and around the scheuristic point of "coffin liners".
mircea_popescu: it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
mircea_popescu: whereas nobody can argue for clothespins.
asciilifeform: the pantsuit picture is then presumably that somebody 'sat down to impose epicycles' ( in the spirit of 'newton sat down to...' ) ?
mircea_popescu: no, but rather than talking of the genuine item, ie, epicycles, they talk of entirely fictitious item, ie, "human rights".
mircea_popescu: here's a point of discussion : in the palace of versailles, the desicated excrement in the corners of the hallways was swept away once a week.
mircea_popescu: this is uninteresting until you stop to consider that the "fascist" ancien regime (that's the word you'd use today, right ?) did NOT have the fucking ability to deny people taking a shit when they felt like taking a shit.
mircea_popescu: seems to me a fucking human right, this. neh ?
asciilifeform: not that it's a bad example, but 'human rights' is 'easy' bunkum , unlikely to be confused with a physically-existing item except by the deliberately mendacious folks and their useful idiots
mircea_popescu: or is it the case that we pick and choose, and who "we" is matters, and so on etcetera.
mircea_popescu: what fucking human rights. they're not a kind of epicycles, they're a kind of jokicicles.
asciilifeform: more dangerous is the gabriel_laddel-style confusion, 'i dun need no book-larnin', classical mechanics is for squares, i'ma straight to genius and discovery'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now find "alien idea" device applied to physically existing item.
mircea_popescu: (ftr, "epicycles" here is a categorical term to describe an array of fixes attempted to bring ptolemaic system astrology in line with observable reality)
asciilifeform: here's a trivial corpse of an epicycle straight from asciilifeform's desk : normalization in bignummery
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wish to see text where this item is called "alien problem".
asciilifeform: the memory gymnastics in mpi. and 'for your convenience, we will package the defective transistors separately!11' , i'll call it here
asciilifeform: 'alien problem'. done?
mircea_popescu: what, ex post facto like that ?
asciilifeform: the shoe fits, neh ?
mircea_popescu: fine, you rescued what was previously 100% pantsuit wank into a 99.(9)% item.
asciilifeform: none of those problems exist when you fix the bitness.
mircea_popescu: ARE YOU HAPPY NAO
asciilifeform: lolk
asciilifeform: and i'll point out that orig term was not coined in pantsuitistan, but by ilkka k, a surprisingly sane mathematics d00d
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is EXACTLY what drives the "toxic fax" wank : that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764490☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 01:18 mircea_popescu: it should be evident that 1. i can argue for epicycles and 2. unless you're at least this tall to ride (which is -- MUCH taller than average college professor), you CAN NOT dispel them out of my hand.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> diana_coman: picture, if su survived, you might be designing votingcircuit cpu for e.g. 'buran' << In veintenary switches!
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: so following recursively down the rabbit hole (see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-31#1761834 ) it then follows that this being a problem "they shouldn't have to have" etcetera.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-31 16:39 mircea_popescu: don't lie, because if you do you form a sort of mental habit that will prevent you from ever inventing anything.
asciilifeform: pretty much every boy thinks that the maths he hasn't learned yet, 'is epicycle'
asciilifeform: !#s fermat crackpots
a111: 0 results for "fermat crackpots", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fermat%20crackpots
asciilifeform: hmm
asciilifeform: !#s elementary fermat
a111: 5 results for "elementary fermat", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=elementary%20fermat
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
mircea_popescu: it'd also be RATHER FUCKING SHOCKING just how much intelligence is needed to merely maintain the border between "tru science" and "discredited paradigm".
asciilifeform: ( e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1679837 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 01:17 asciilifeform: wiles, see, 'doesn't count' because 'too long and uses things not taught in kindergarten and wtf is this'
mircea_popescu: exactly because "technology helps the theives too, is policework-neutral overall" phenomenon.
mircea_popescu: "oh, DO WE STILL HAVE TO DO THIS ?!?!?! IN 2018 ?!?! EPICYCLES ?!?!?". gimme a break, you can't light a fucking lightbulb.
asciilifeform: the saving grace is that it is not , in practice, usually difficult to distinguish the folx who are at least earnestly shooting for maxwellization ( and prepared to acknowledge failure ; THEIR ~personal~ failure ) from the gabriel_laddels
mircea_popescu: im not even sure about that much.
mircea_popescu: it is easy to come up with a partition one can live with himself.
mircea_popescu: it is notoriously difficult for fathers to pick competent sons for daughters / stalins to pick competent successors etc.
mircea_popescu: s/sons/husbands/ w/e.
asciilifeform: the litmus asciilifeform lives with is, roughly: show him a pertinent item made of 'maths he hasn't learned'; is response 'hmm, lemme disappear for a week into my study and come back' or ... 'I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO !111'
mircea_popescu: maybe.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is especially difficult for fathers with... nothing to pick from
mircea_popescu: this is the case at least 50% of the time throughout history.
asciilifeform: 'to pull rabbit from a hat, he must be actually in the hat'
mircea_popescu: consider the case of "evil" scientists that were WRONG
mircea_popescu: such as you know, "please wash your hands" doctor.
asciilifeform: pretty good example
mircea_popescu: no shortage.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: yes, heuristics exist, and can be used. that's about it.
asciilifeform: that's the only it.
asciilifeform: the gods only dropped heuristics, not revelations.
mircea_popescu: now then, back to the issue : i suspect "alien problem" is a worse than useless heuristic, in the exact sense "web metric" are a worse than useless management aid.
mircea_popescu: in that it does little more than veneer bias into some kind of dysfunctional reification.
asciilifeform: what's the dysfunctional veneering in saying to the fat-tard 'stop having become fat' rather than 'here is how to rework train seats everywhere' ?
mircea_popescu: the epicycles, before removal, a) had a history whcih b) was understood by the removers. the "alien problem" is how lazy jwz say "i don't want to read", by and large.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's a difference between poet ignoring language convention and junior high "innocent bystander who happens to be black" ignoring same.
asciilifeform: 'alien problem' is how one says to the folx who maneuver themselves into a dead end, and who very much were architects of their own misfortune, that their problems are NOT 'the problem of all mankind' and that to construct for them 'solutions', such as they would accept, is harmful to the sane
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the train seats issue is particularly iffy, considering how japanese did rework in 70s.
mircea_popescu: 60s, w/e.
asciilifeform: this is again the 'i can tell gabriel_laddel from maxwell' . asciilifeform , and mircea_popescu , and any sane folx can trivially distinguish 'less malnutrited japanese' from 'mcfood-eater' transformations
asciilifeform: this is the wine-with-chickenshit-subtracted from yesterday's thread.
mircea_popescu: you just restated http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704268☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 23:10 mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning."
asciilifeform: it's true, whether or not i restate it, lol
mircea_popescu: well, so then, "alien problem is how an authority may choose to communicate the excommunication of a class of activity" lel.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, i'm satisfied this ass was well beaten to pulp.
asciilifeform: it is that. but also imho a reasonable engineering term. it describes the engineering equivalent of obesity
asciilifeform: aite
BingoBoingo: You know who loves making fun of the Obese: Latinos
mircea_popescu: btw, you ever read tiganiada ? did i ask this before ?
mircea_popescu: i suspect at level where might well enjoy it
asciilifeform: it's on the list, from old thread
asciilifeform: not yet eaten by asciilifeform , nope
mircea_popescu: ah yes, cool.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform currently reading various fairytales.
mircea_popescu: some good stuff there.
asciilifeform: oohyea
asciilifeform just had quite interesting conv with pet re the harsh 'cold equations' light of 'fefeleaga' vs the socialisto-gunk of 'les miserables'
mircea_popescu: ikr ?
mircea_popescu: "human rights" hurr. nobody reading that thought "o hey, how great, old woman gets ground into the dirt". HOWEVER, the difference between sane person and moderntard is that they also didn't go "HEY, PIXIE DUST!!! MAKE ALL BETTER!!!"
mircea_popescu: what fucking better.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15114.99, vol: 14781.61107198 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15077.0, vol: 44836.08867496 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15209.0, vol: 3536.72083144 | Volume-weighted last average: 15093.2839045
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764183 << alan kay is actually not so greatly regarded here ; or at least by me. certainly not his later meta stuff.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:41 esthlos: guys like alan kay push a certain political narrative, but it doesnt add up
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764186 << so i dutifully follow, and i duly end up on " I have a new interview question, and you can have it too: "The industry has a gender balance problem. Why is this?" [ed: see postscript]"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:43 esthlos: oh fun, the blog of the guile lead: http://wingolog.org/
mircea_popescu: motherfucker... NOBODY CARES. seriouyslty now. it makes exactly zero difference for any practical purpose "in the industry" whether you chain up all the women and sell them off to martians.
mircea_popescu: all these fucktards "being involved" in various topics through insistently discussing what they read in hustler. jacking off doesn't make you a beautician/car mechanic/architect/dentist/etcetera. it may make you blind, apparently, to the world around, but whatevs.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764187 << yeah, like http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/privilege-linguists.jpg☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:44 asciilifeform: why am i reading about e.g. '...ignorance about the lived experience of women compiler writers, say, can lead to hurtful behavior...' ?
mircea_popescu: http://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-question#cd7ce15868f2195baa8586069393901a4b2e182e for the record.
mircea_popescu: !#s andy wingo
a111: 0 results for "andy wingo", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=andy%20wingo
mircea_popescu: shocking.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764188 << why dehyphenate at all ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:44 phf: esthlos: reflecting on it a bit, tricky part of k&p for plain text is de-hyphenating for reflow
mircea_popescu: i do not wish to see de-hyphenate or chumpa-tron split up.
mircea_popescu: !~google wgah'nagl fhtagn
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Citations:ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah ' nagl fhtagn ...: <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:ph%2527nglui_mglw%2527nafh_Cthulhu_R%2527lyeh_wgah%2527nagl_fhtagn>; ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah ' nagl fhtagn - Wiktionary: <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ph%2527nglui_mglw%2527nafh_Cthulhu_R%2527lyeh_wgah%2527nagl_fhtagn>; Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah ' nagl fhtagn - (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764210 << kinda unfortunate he disappeared yeah.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 18:58 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 << "Oh really? I never guessed he was an actor. Touche." if only tlp was around...
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763821 << lol "what did you run into?" "an article about rape." oh, THAT one.... about as useful a criterion for a trilema article by now as "has sentences" and "occasionally punctuated"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: but since we're doing retrospective trilemas, here's an item by way of example : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SXexf/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: yeah, trilema not a very good field for the "oh, ima be vague" approach. it's called trilema because it has at least three of everything!
mircea_popescu: "intelligence is only a labor-saving device. less intelligent people can in principle create just as elegant solutions, but it would normally take them more effort to get there." <<< ajhaha NO! FUCKING! WAY!
phf: why hyphenate or why dehyphenate? the first is not necessary but reduces the value of k&s since basically there's very little play available with monospaced spaces
mircea_popescu: phf but hyphens are fundamentally different from spaces. the two are not semantically equivalent.
mircea_popescu: this is like starting a new paragraph on double \n and also on double l.
phf: no no, the reason why i bring up space is that you basically have two things that k&s can play with: hyphenation and elastic spaces. the two are balanced in some magical way
mircea_popescu: anyway, re the naggum quote above : a better statement would be to say that every problem comes with an iq functional which could be approximated as a (x-fiq)^3 + b(x-fiq) ; the a, b and fiq are parameters of the problem, the x is where the solver's iq goes. if his iq is lower than the fiq required by the problem, his "work" comes out negative.
mircea_popescu: the rules for adding multiple xn together are more complex than straight addition, but not complex enough to manage a positive out of negatives.
phf: when you eliminate hyphenation as a concern, you're just left with elastic spaces, but you don't have those in monospace plain text. you just have full sized spaces, but their granularity is so high as to be almost useless
mircea_popescu: phf a 120 col line will contain a number of words distriburted around 23.7 ; this means your spaces being elastic works to some degree. i will hold up trilema as an example of this, would you say elastic spaces are not working for it ?
phf: elastic spaces in this case means variable width spaces. you can't have that in plain text. you can either have foo_bar or foo__bar or ...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764226 << either that or "either you produce a naked female employee on her knees right this second, or else your fucktarded shenanigans just cost you a 580% salary increase for being a bunch of repugnant scum"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 19:23 ben_vulpes: > i haven't tried this test yet << and you don't know that it only works on the feeble minded, literally anyone else is going to see exactly what you're doing and give the canned response that you want: "the patriarchy keeps women down and what is really called for is demoting and docking mens wages, and promoting science education for little girls, and generally eradicating the constructed gender binary so
mircea_popescu: phf do i have to screenshot this ?
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/time-to-get-out-by-the-way/ << third paragraph, 1st line space is 160% of 2nd line
phf: might need a screenshot, i'm not seeing that on my machine (or possibly also being dense)
mircea_popescu: (upon actual measurement, notrly, 1st 368 to 381 vs 2nd 186 to 197 vs 3rd 232 to 242 ; so 13, 11, 10 etc. )
mircea_popescu: phf http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/trilema-spaces.png ?
mircea_popescu: (last line 661 to 669, so 8 ; from 13 to 8 the variation indeed is 160% so hah!
phf: right, but you can't do that in plain text file
mircea_popescu: phf incidentally, which 3 pages did you mean ? xach search returns like 50
mircea_popescu: phf who the fuck sez ?
mircea_popescu: (+if my articles aren't plaintext what are they bonus)
asciilifeform ended up reading all 3 pgs ( of results, plural ! )
asciilifeform: much goodstuff
mircea_popescu: it is, but i was curious re what he meant.
phf: oh oh, algo (and the machinery) being discussed is for hard line reflow. (you run M-q in emacs and it'll reflow the paragraph for you with newlines introduced)
mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: bs.
phf: :D
mircea_popescu: the day i want the machine to write text for me ima just buy all the girls strapons and they can fuck each other too
phf: write text?
mircea_popescu: while i watch mad max the future or whatever the fuck i'd do in this weird crapsack world
mircea_popescu: phf yes.
phf: whyyyyy
mircea_popescu: i dunno, you want it to stuff \n in there for you.
mircea_popescu: why not also the interjection "you know ?" or i guess "mon"
asciilifeform: fwiw i linebreakulate by hand
mircea_popescu: me too. ONCE PER FUCKING PARAGRAPH.
mircea_popescu: but i guess if emacs feels the sentence needs more random gibberish instilled who am i to not permit it.
asciilifeform: ( to 80col. when writing proggy. to mircea_popescutronic 1 per para, when writing human. )
asciilifeform: proggy ain't reflowable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you seriously \ out oo-cpp gnarl to 80 ?
mircea_popescu: like, 40 line procedure calls and shit ?
asciilifeform: i dun write those, wtf
asciilifeform: alienproblem!11
mircea_popescu: oh oh oh I SEE HOW IT IS
asciilifeform: srsly why
mircea_popescu: what if one dayu you have to read cpp videocard stuff ? what THEN ?
mircea_popescu: special pleading city over here.
asciilifeform: where is this, why not show
mircea_popescu: i tell you if the shit was multiple lines per line i would just exudate my lungs through the skinpores on my back out of sheer fury.
asciilifeform: whereas if i find myself EVER horizontalscrolling, insta-barf
asciilifeform: and if i can't print it without indent-destroying reflow, or use of tiny letters, ditto
phf: well, luckily mp doesn't produce v patches, so this a non-issue
phf ducks
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: srsly non80col proggy has burden of justifying the 'wtf, why', just like nonstandard railroad gauge
mircea_popescu: so you want "\t\t\t\t\tcsRef<iMeshWrapperIterator> objectIter = engine->GetNearbyMeshes(mesh->GetMovable()->GetSectors()->Get(0), oldpos + boundingBox.GetCenter(), boundingBox.GetSize().Norm() * 2);" to be instead
mircea_popescu: \t\t\t\t\tcsRef<iMeshWrapperIterator> objectIter = engine->\
mircea_popescu: GetNearbyMeshes(mesh->GetMovable()->GetSectors()->Get(0), oldpos + boundingBox.\
mircea_popescu: GetCenter(), boundingBox.GetSize().Norm() * 2);
mircea_popescu: ?
asciilifeform: this dun render unambiguously on me terminal
asciilifeform: paste plox ?
asciilifeform: meanwhile observe asciilifeform's formatting in ffa
mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XJQ6d/?raw=true
asciilifeform: i.e. if function call simple, i.e. fits on 1 line -- then 1line; if not -- then 1 arg per line.
mircea_popescu: phf omfg is that phfatry opressing me ?!
asciilifeform: leaves room for comments also.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, this lispier way is much better.
asciilifeform: so answer to mircea_popescu's q is, neither !
mircea_popescu: heh.
phf: mircea_popescu: you don't necessarily need to introduce a break, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764371☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:45 phf: in a proper program 80 col is an indicator of s/n, density and all kinds of lateral properties, that can be communicated between professionals, because you can know ahead of time, what you're dealing with by shape, and have a rough estimate for the token count
mircea_popescu: but at issue here aere the comments ; and make no mistake about it -- since we're doing the whole literate thing this is very important.
phf: so a dangle like that is an indicator. in fact a dangle like that usually exists in programs that don't 80 column. but sometimes a dangle like that might just be necessary
mircea_popescu: phf i've little problem with people writing code in whatever line lengths they want to. but comments of arbitrary cut are infuriating (though admittedly 80col not nearly so much as 50whatever)
asciilifeform: if your cut is substantially below 80, it is merely annoying and wasteful of vertical. however if ~above~ 80, it makes yer code unprintable without substantial rework
asciilifeform: ( can do ~120 on a4 if pressed. but leaves little margin room to write in )
mircea_popescu will link here http://trilema.com/2017/how-the-beastforumcom-private-messaging-function-became-a-paid-user-only-item/#selection-83.0-83.18 because heh.
mircea_popescu: ONE LINE!
asciilifeform: lol why not link obfuscatedccontest also
mircea_popescu: only a coupla kb.
asciilifeform: with the cock-shaped codes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unlike said contest, this snipped had real world impact!
ben_vulpes: now that we've done indentation, how about aligning variables on the right side of = operators
mircea_popescu: are we even done ? ;/
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: observe again style in ffa
ben_vulpes: or even aligning the = operators themselves
asciilifeform: declarations ditto
asciilifeform: align, imho, all that can be aligned. does wonders for reading.
mircea_popescu: hm.
phf: c had a somewhat right idea with ident :p you feed a proggy in, it force formats it for you
mircea_popescu: this is not even a bad argument. fixwidth speeds scan for code for sure.
asciilifeform: e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch4_ffacalc#L205
mircea_popescu: is the conclusion of this standards board discussion that "fu mp, live with 80col comments, we're not gonna reflow shit for you" then ?
asciilifeform: phf: i force-format my ada. this only affects indents tho
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho 1 lf per para is The Right Thing ~in humanolade strictly~
asciilifeform: where autoreflow does therighthing ~100%
asciilifeform: but in proggy -- 80col ideal.
mircea_popescu: i can't come up with any good counters.
ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#1848 << and fuck you if you want to make a command with a name more than 1char longer than "walletpassphrasechange"
mircea_popescu: oh btw -- variable names like that fucking suck.
mircea_popescu: we need a named item grammar.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: make, why not. then it gets to be 2line
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall tigerfibel ?
asciilifeform: the germans had a grammar, for shorthand of orders
ben_vulpes: other lulzies in the same vein http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#2418 and http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=makefiles#0309
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: entirely sensible!
asciilifeform: so loading of cannon was sumthing like 'fa-la-ma-fo'
asciilifeform recently reread 'tigerfibel', really a megaclassic of technical writing for all time
phf: mircea_popescu: 80col is such an old holiwar you're risking myself or ascii moving in a backyard and building defensive possitions, like those boys they bring from iraq do. "son, you can come out now, we showed those no break somsabeaches"
asciilifeform: 'if i can't use my drum printer, i dun want yer revolution' or how did emma goldman put it..
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.
mircea_popescu: on both cvounts.
mircea_popescu: phf fine!
mircea_popescu: can't even reform anything around here!
mircea_popescu: so to have closure, i suppose http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763975 should read "80 cols plox what is this"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 17:31 mircea_popescu: esthlos please let your paragraphs flow. please.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764241 << see ? three!!1 three secret retorts!!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 19:58 ben_vulpes: yes i know, in ro
ben_vulpes: i'm still waiting on my three secret beakers
mircea_popescu: wait wut ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764245 << suspicious, isn't it ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 asciilifeform: ( likbez : all you need for the mythical holy grail, 'fast iron rsa', is a very large-bitnessed adder-cum-barrelshifter and a few storage registers that can be programmatically shuffled between. )
ben_vulpes: terribru pun on glassware
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764246 << this is a very apt commentary on the value of 1bn orcs piled up together.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:10 BingoBoingo: In other news from the price is right department: "The personal information of more than a billion Indians stored in the world's largest biometric database can be bought online for less than $8, according to an investigation by an Indian newspaper."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that -- yes, can have, but cripled like so
asciilifeform: oh it's simply a painfully small cpld is all
asciilifeform: was never meant for 'make own cpu'
asciilifeform: but for 'glue'
mircea_popescu: could have shifts!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-02#1710096 << see also thread, re concretes☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-09-02 19:42 asciilifeform: biggest ice part is the ICE40HX8K
mircea_popescu: now let's see here : "Meltdown breaks all security assumptions given by the CPU’s memory isolation capabilities." vs "So given that there is in fact no secure memory implementation no matter how much it would be useful if there was one, EuCrypt takes instead the honest and practical approach of making it clear that it uses plain memory and nothing else."
mircea_popescu: who's ahead and who;s behind in the great technological race of 2010s ?
mircea_popescu: note to journahos of the future : include a plain statement of the above fact in your opening salvo or else.
asciilifeform: proofofconcept btw is pretty great, reads arbitrary pg of ram from wwwbrowser jsolade
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: ( does 0 on pre-obummer amd, i will add )
mircea_popescu: i'm too lazy to dig up where mp says he uses old amds, but w/e.
asciilifeform: errybody literate, i suspect, uses
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764256 << let's leave it at that☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:19 ben_vulpes: btw how come nobody in the "stop rape culture!!11" world has done an indiestarter to build the vagina dentata from neal stephenson's snow crash?
mircea_popescu: btw, vafgina dentata is from freud not from john smith.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: subj is a type of boobytrap, vs freud's
mircea_popescu: (and there was some idiot sheila from down below years ago ; i recall lulzing in the logs as to how this wonder will drive rapist to a) probe and b) beat into a squirming, faceless mess any bitch dumb enough to go around with it)
asciilifeform: never afaik used in life, for obvious reason
mircea_popescu: pretty sure we lulzed at this exact item, years ago.
asciilifeform: 'mr.bayonet goes in first'
asciilifeform: 'В комнату заходите вдвоем: сначала граната, потом - ты' (tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2012-10-15#-230312 << linked mostly for the bitcoin prices.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2012-10-15 05:01 BTC-Mining: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-rape_device#Rape-aXe
asciilifeform: http://fakty.ua/187680-esli-vo-vremya-zachistki-slyshish-v-pomecshenii-myaukane-iz-shkafa-ne-otkryvaj-vmeste-s-kotenkom-tam-mozhet-byt-spryatana-granata << collection of similar aphorisms, for dedicated archaeologist.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764309 << but abstinence only is good for you.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 21:16 phf: a forced popup that warns you that you're sending to http from https, but there's no about:config to disable the popup. 9 years of "ffs put a boolean in configs, you fucks"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764319 << twas exhaustively discussed last time! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737379☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 22:30 asciilifeform: 'top 2 bits and bottom bit are ALWAYS 1!' << asciilifeform still doesn't get why to weld the next-to-highest
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 11 x 11 = 1001 ; 10 x 10 = 0100
mircea_popescu: the ONLY way to make sure the top bit of a product is set, is to have BOTH top bits in BOTH factors set.
asciilifeform: so why not, then, 3 ?
mircea_popescu: because 3rd makes no difference.
mircea_popescu: 110 x 110 and 111 x 111 BOTH result in a 1yyy
asciilifeform: hm.
asciilifeform: so does 11... x 10... tho
mircea_popescu: doesn't matter.
mircea_popescu: if you don't set it, it can always be worst case.
asciilifeform: throws away whole bit of entropy in each factor, for nuffin
mircea_popescu: for something.
mircea_popescu: fixlength N.
asciilifeform: wainot http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 pill ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
mircea_popescu: faster this way.
asciilifeform: rot13 fastest, lol
mircea_popescu: yes well, we're looking at ~10 second m-r run per item, so like half a day to produce a pair of primes.
mircea_popescu: im not throwing them away 93% of the time
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764342 << cuz i've been mostly the one guy reading her code to date i guess ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:01 asciilifeform: why not stick to the ancestral 80col, folx??
asciilifeform: 1/4 not .93 lol
mircea_popescu: any of 6 bits not being set -> chucked item ; 2^6 = 64 so 1 in 64 ie 1.5% or so pass.
asciilifeform: why 6
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's algo was 'if top bit of p*q not set, get new p,q'
mircea_popescu: !!up kook00
deedbot: kook00 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you ok with fixing bottom bit ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: gotta odd p,q
mircea_popescu: so ? test for parity! throw out!
asciilifeform: there's not an escape from bottom
mircea_popescu: i don't want the 1/4 bit of parity
asciilifeform: that wouldn't win anything tho
asciilifeform: whereas my algo preserves the entropy of the penultimate bit.
mircea_popescu: i dun want it.
asciilifeform: aite. so long as you know what yer buying.
mircea_popescu: i'm dealing with "four rounds of m-r and a 5th fixed with 2, so as to fix the cone of blindness" bs and you want me to care about the 2047th bit ?
mircea_popescu: dja understand motherfucking koch fixed one of the witnesses in mr ?
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: what nsa gains from being able to rely on 2 rather than 44444444444444444 is anyone's fucking guess
asciilifeform: ( 'fixed' rng also.. )
mircea_popescu: "oh, 2 is a great witness for odd composites" "so would have been any other even number" "yes but... umm..."
asciilifeform: 'can't pick witnesses trngistically because reasons'
asciilifeform: i mean ffs, koch dun even leave a knob to get ~key~ entropy trngistically.
asciilifeform: 'what if running on toaster, with no rng'
mircea_popescu: what if running on his mother.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764363 << possibly should auction the piles.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 23:39 asciilifeform: generally my page will in the end have ~equal area of pencilmark and printerola
asciilifeform: the sheer wtf, srsly, consider the folx who imagine they are somehow cryptoizing on a machine with no trng
asciilifeform: re prime gen -- i suspect that the problem can be finessed ,
mircea_popescu: holy hell i lived to see the end of the 4th day of 2018 logs.
asciilifeform: specifically that a proof of uniformity for an apeloyee-style primeconstructor mechanism, is in nearer reach than a runnable-on-2048b-ints aks.
mircea_popescu: i'd read.
asciilifeform: ( but not having it yet -- asciilifeform cannot say for a fact. )
mircea_popescu: tho i am deeply suspicious of constructed primes.
asciilifeform: rightfully.
asciilifeform: there is pointedly NOT a safe constructor known.
asciilifeform: ( see the thread )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733382 << subj.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 16:36 asciilifeform: let's model the ideal prime-shitter. it would be an item that takes integer N , of whatever bitness, and produce the Nth prime ( or eggog if the Nth prime is bigger than the register bitness permitted. )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764429 << im impressed you're aware☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 00:12 asciilifeform: right, 'engineer' is more a psychological term to asciilifeform , rather like rpg character class, than diploma.
asciilifeform: lolwhy
mircea_popescu: im easily impressed, what.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no method to produce nth prime.
asciilifeform: noshit
asciilifeform: one of the biggest unsolveds , since greeks
asciilifeform: nor do i expect to see a solution.
asciilifeform: then again i didn't expect 'primes is in p' either.
mircea_popescu: it'll be funny 5mn years from now, when we're all sitting around with whatever pools & eggnogs of the future and rsa still stands, undaunted, in preference of ~everything else.
mircea_popescu: "turns out primes isn't even in W!"
asciilifeform: and will add, that it is theoretically possible to satisfy asciilifeform's uniformity criterion ( 'avoids no primes' + 'no bit of input is more influential over the output than any other bit' ) without creating the mythical n-th-prime-maker
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you have a different problem : even if "no bit of input is more influential than other" i STILL want to put in no less than 2045 bits of input ; AND get out no MORE! than 2048 bit long prime.
mircea_popescu: so you don't have much to work with.
asciilifeform: the described item is trivially impossible
mircea_popescu: quite my point.
mircea_popescu: but any other item is worse than what we have now.
asciilifeform: most 2048bitness state is composite
asciilifeform: i dun see how worse
mircea_popescu: if your magic maker uses say 2044 bits of input, therefore you have half as many possible states than i do!
mircea_popescu: so you're half as wide, so end of story.
asciilifeform: mno. you have same 2044 or whatnot. just takes you longer. and with m-r , also chance to step on a mine.
mircea_popescu: consider : mp-prime takes 2045 bits from trng, spits out after some wrangling 2048 bit prime number ; meanwhile alf-prime takes 45 bits from trng, spits out after some wrangling 2048 bit prime.
mircea_popescu: mp-prime is stronger than alf-prime.
asciilifeform: why 45 ?
mircea_popescu: anything other than 2045 loses.
asciilifeform: there aint 2045 bits of primespace under 2048b of integerspace.
mircea_popescu: about 1 in 2k numbers is prime there.
mircea_popescu: so say 2^11.
asciilifeform: so that's the actual keyspace available.
asciilifeform: under 2048.
mircea_popescu: even if i admit this objection, which i dunno i should but let's, for fellowship -- 2037 still not much room to work with
asciilifeform: can get to it the current way, or, hypothetically, some martian way.
asciilifeform: i dun have the martian one, ftr.
asciilifeform: all i got, is m-r
asciilifeform: would be neat to generate keys in bounded time. and know primality for a fact. BUT i dun have, yet, such a pill.
mircea_popescu: moreover! while there's just as many integers with the 1337th bit set as there are with it nul, nevertheless it's trivially not the case that there's just as many 2048 bit prime numbers with it set as there are with it null.
mircea_popescu: ie, prime numbers themselves do not follow this 'no bit of input is more influential over the output than any other bit' rule.
mircea_popescu: (now go, predict things about how it falls)
asciilifeform: expand?
asciilifeform: ( i can't see from where mircea_popescu extracts this )
mircea_popescu: you expect you have an even count of prime numbers ?
asciilifeform: afaik no known pattern
mircea_popescu: no known pattern ; but no homogenity either. there's always an even count of integers in a given bitsize ; but not necessarily an even count of primes.
asciilifeform: try it
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu: try what ?
mircea_popescu: 7 primes in 4 bits, for instance.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman "to unsure" -> ensure
mircea_popescu: "go and read some basic books" -> "read, re-read <em>and understand</em> TAOCP" ? or what, add K&R in there ? steele's 2002 thing ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman technically it's incorrect to say "6 bits will always be 1" ; it's the case that the first and the last bits of N are always 1 ; and a further number of bits are subtly affected (ie, biased) by the p, q masks.
mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
mircea_popescu: !!up kook00
deedbot: kook00 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: in other antiqua entomologica arcana, https://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> holy hell i lived to see the end of the 4th day of 2018 logs. << ikr!
mod6: ni ni :]
mircea_popescu: "doom is inevitable, BTW. mankind will die out, planet earth will be vaporized when Sol goes nova, if not sooner, and then Common Lisp will have to acknowledge defeat to the unwavering hostility of the universe. for those of us who plan to become immortal, this is a serious concern." <<< 1999 naggum was apparently planning for immortality ?
mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
mircea_popescu: other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
mircea_popescu: ey perceive it) blame all their (ample) shortcomings on the hulk barnacled while claiming all the (scant) benefit as own.
mircea_popescu: these letters from a time before empire-of-idiots was formalized and understood as such are about as fascinating as a child's experience from before it understood any mechanics at all.
mircea_popescu: anyway, thinking about this whole "fsf was an attempt to *finally* bring about socialist utopia through a fettering of everyone's access to knowledge while open source was an attempt to nevermindthatjustkillM$already leading to java-for-browser because microsoft invented a c++ market etc" broad but really mostly correct summary, the one most striking aspect is that somehow the job of the modder (ie, guy that adds those snazzy
mircea_popescu: chrome tailpipes on already made car/pc/whatever cxhassis) somehow ended up called "designer".
mircea_popescu: motherfucking mother of isis, the act of arraying buttons together in a guy is no design!
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764875 <- answered & addressed -> http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/04/eucrypt-chapter-4-random-prime-number-generator/#comment-1031☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 04:41 mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764721 <- so I gather the 80 cols habit won the day for code☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 03:07 mircea_popescu: so to have closure, i suppose http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763975 should read "80 cols plox what is this"
diana_coman: which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: not merely code, but everything that is in a vpatch
asciilifeform: ought to be printable on a drum printer
asciilifeform: reflowolade is for blogposts.
asciilifeform would not insist that a vpatch ~itself~ oughta be 80col, as that would constrain the contents even further, to 76 or so
diana_coman: I was just writing that! lol
diana_coman: not that 4 characters make much difference in any case
asciilifeform: diana_coman: as a side effect, you get an easily formatted code-box for blogging, as in ffa.
asciilifeform: they make a difference, diana_coman , those 4 chars. just like if you suggested to a railroad to take 4cm from the rail gauge.
diana_coman: ah, should have been precise there: they don't make a difference for me at this stage; I can stick to 80 just as I can stick to 76 really
asciilifeform: 'this railroad had this gauge since 1830 and what is this'
asciilifeform: aa ok
diana_coman purposefully gets used to all sorts of different things, makes it easy to switch between them really
diana_coman: I suppose I'm not much of a train basically
asciilifeform: i suspect the key difference b/w 'x columns or bust' folx and the others, is the habit of using printer
asciilifeform: ( and to lesser extent, vertical display )
diana_coman: I suspect it's more the investment in the habit really; printer might be *one form* but it doesn't convince me much in itself
asciilifeform: back when i had a horizontal display, most of the time i had it column-split and emacs 'followmode' to flow proggy between them
asciilifeform: diana_coman: printer forces max cols.
asciilifeform: there's no way around it. ( some people resort to printing 90 degrees to get more cols.
asciilifeform: )
diana_coman: so basically columns newspaper style, as I was saying yesterday, yes; inevitably, if 80 cols, ofc
diana_coman: anyways, it's settled, 80cols it will have to be
asciilifeform: recall the famous 'lions book', was printed in this style
diana_coman: as a side note, that's precisely why I did *not* adopt emacs in the end despite liking it quite a lot when met it at uni: it was VERY useful indeed but the sort of useful that was too close to addictive for my liking essentially
diana_coman: that might be my brand of weird only though
asciilifeform: not errybody uses emacs
asciilifeform: ( though if you intend to do any commonlisp, you're more or less doomed to either use it, or emulate it )
diana_coman: as long as it doesn't basically cripple me to everything else, I can use it, sure
asciilifeform: not sure how it'd cripple , aside from cultivating the 'unreasonable' expectation of sanity (i.e. extensibility) of editor
asciilifeform: in the same sense as e.g. mircea_popescu is 'crippled from' eating at wallmart .
diana_coman: no, in the sense of "80 cols or NOTHING ELSE"; same thing there: can work with emacs or NOTHING ELSE
diana_coman is not pushing anything nor bashing emacs
asciilifeform: the only item i use that has no equiv whatsoever outside of emacsland, is slime
asciilifeform: ( it has a superior grandfather, the actual bolix lispm. but no equiv on pc. )
asciilifeform admits that he does not particularly ~like~ emacs. it simply ended up a schelling point, like linux. but suffers from same type of problems.
asciilifeform: and i 'can work' with other editor, just as can write with goose feather and ink also, and can saw with hand saw instead of electric saw... so long as it is understood that everything will take 50x longer.
asciilifeform: and given the choice, will take ballpoint pen over feather, and emacs over 'ed'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764878 << aaah, the prb of emacs ! it lives on, yes☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 05:03 mircea_popescu: in other antiqua entomologica arcana, https://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html
asciilifeform: providing 'valuable pheatures' like variable-width font..
diana_coman: are you saying that 50x improvement is really due totally to emacs being to any other editor what pen is over feather? because otherwise Nx longer is exactly "nothing else" when N is large enough
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << i'm quite tempted to give the archive another combing and make a sequel to my http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165 item☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 06:21 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: indeed it is.
asciilifeform: (not 'emacs' per se, but e.g. slime. you couldn't pay me to write lisp without slime or equivalent, just as not even gulag inmates will dig with hands instead of spade )
diana_coman: well, I never used slime so I can't comment
asciilifeform: the meaningless shitwork ratio, lacking slime, moves from 0% to ~100%
diana_coman: note though that we were talking emacs, not slime; enfin
asciilifeform: slime lives in emacs.
diana_coman: yes, so you need emacs because slime; that sounds like a lot of snails already,lol
asciilifeform: emacs per se is nothing to write home about, it is full of gnarly archaicisms , and the default keymapping will, as naggum described, destroy your hands , unless you fix it
asciilifeform: ( it was born on keyboards which no longer exist )
asciilifeform: but then again why the everlivingfuck would i run with defaults on a ~configurable~ tool that i use 14+ hr/day )
diana_coman: aha; so no argument in fact; basically you say "I need emacs for what I'm doing because slime"; I say "so far I'm happily not cornered by anything into using emacs"
asciilifeform: >> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836 << oblig
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'best thing is never to have programmed at all' or how did socrates put it.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: speaking of nonemacsism, adacore's special-purpose editor, 'gps', is imho pretty decent
asciilifeform: ( i recommend to nonemacsists, to try it )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836#comment-18597
asciilifeform: aha!
diana_coman: I'll have a look at gps then
asciilifeform: it comes with the binariolade gnat. if you're using gcc gnat, will have to compile it, a little bit gnarly.
shinohai: "GPS provides several levels of customization, from simple preference dialogs to powerful scripting capability through the Python language" <<< why?
shinohai: Seems another scripting language would have been chosen, but meh.
asciilifeform: shinohai: which ?
shinohai: lisp works as a scripting language, neh
asciilifeform: i dun particularly relish pythonism, but proliferation of 'i wrote it on a napkin, on a train, while drunk' script langs, incl. elisp-style dynamicscope abortions, is imho harmful
shinohai: point
asciilifeform: that being said, gprbuild ( what ffa uses instead of gnumake ) seems to make very effective use of a kind of interpreted subset of ada
asciilifeform: could , in principle, be expanded into a scripting lang.
asciilifeform: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 16076.28, vol: 15424.74126164 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 16047.0, vol: 47384.63064283 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16000.0, vol: 3644.58814136 | Volume-weighted last average: 16051.2185715
BingoBoingo: And the crashing resumes
BingoBoingo: And the registrations are starting to trickle in. I R SRS BSNS NAO!
BingoBoingo: Except no "nao" doesn't read as the same thing it did pre Uruguay
BingoBoingo: Dammit, I'm not going to be able to mispell now for creative effect anymore am I
asciilifeform: wainot?
BingoBoingo: Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
asciilifeform: in other noose,
asciilifeform: !#s harold martin
a111: 3 results for "harold martin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=harold%20martin
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/o6uML/?raw=true << he confessed, 'pleabargained'.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : best part is re how evidence remains seekrit, plus the usual claptran in re how e.g. usg not obligated to do anything in return for the confession )
asciilifeform: *claptrap
asciilifeform: ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-21#1557756 thread )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 14:02 asciilifeform: funny how they put the 'cloud storage' in the bail denial affidavit, but have not yet even bothered to parallelconstruct some reason ~other than it~ for how the d00d could have been caught.
mod6: mornin
asciilifeform: ohai mod6
mod6: how goes today?
asciilifeform: slowly.
asciilifeform: and you , mod6 ?
mod6: not bad! i implemented the pill to calculate the press path from a given leaf. seems to be working pretty well. i ran all my automated tests, passed 50/54 without incident. Four of the tests are pretty complex test cases where we basically yank one of the vpatches out of the middle of a vtree, then test to ensure that we avoid that where required.
mod6: Since now the press path is calculated slightly different now than blindly shoveling in the flow, those tests needed some adjustments on their assertions of expected output.
asciilifeform: aa neato
mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's main pheature-request for mod6 is to print meaningful eggogs, rather than silent 'new jersey' failure
asciilifeform: e.g. 'beheaded chain found: [list of patches]' when there is a patch with non-null parentage but parent is absent
asciilifeform: and 'wild chain found: ...' when there's a missing seal
asciilifeform: rather than simply ignoring inputs.
mod6: yeah, i actually did add a 'check_required' routine that is semi-related to this. for instance, when that error happened, it was because some guy didn't have `sha512sum'. so the check_required subroutine will now run first, and check to ensure that a list of system biniaries are available before anything happens. and if not, exits.
asciilifeform: right, oughta have similar for gpg
mod6: There are better error messages, or averting a silent fail that will also help here. I haven't gotten that far on that part yet.
asciilifeform: ( if an external proggy is made use of -- oughta check that it exists )
mod6: wanna see the experimental patch i'm workin on?
asciilifeform: sure
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/aj5jZ/?raw=true << this is an experimental only thing!!
asciilifeform: aaa this is the vtron
asciilifeform: neato.
asciilifeform is quite out of practice in reading perl
mod6: the 'print_press_path' subroutine is, for the time, for debugging only.
shinohai: I seem to be patched in and basic functions working, so sing out when ready to test mod6 o7
asciilifeform: ty for making and maintaining this vtron, mod6 . it is a good thing.
mod6: no prob. thanks asciilifeform
mod6: so goal is to fix this problem. then carry on and document all the rules the thing has in place. this way, others can try to build in those rules we've discussed in here to their vtrons without having to fish them all out of 2 years of logs.
mod6: that's later tho. first, just gotta get this fixed, then we can move on to greater things.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << hah, i read it and didn't notice that it was with fare. there's more fare interactions there of similar nature.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 06:21 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
asciilifeform at one time tried to read fare's blog, quickly barfed, d00d has a multitude of socialist-flavoured cockroaches in his crankcase
ben_vulpes: mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c?
ben_vulpes: it is a minor thing that i occasionally trip over
asciilifeform: ideally a vtron oughta unhappen, to the extent possible, everything it did to the world, if it gets a ctrl-c
asciilifeform: but other unixland utils do not do this, so it is possibly a bridge too far to expect it of this one
ben_vulpes: ah k nm then
asciilifeform: nah the tmp thing definitely ought to clean up
asciilifeform: or at the very least not ever use the same absolute tmp path
ben_vulpes: right, i shelled out to mktmpdir in mine
asciilifeform: ( have a gensym. there is no excuse ever to be hosed by a previous unsuccessful run. )
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764971 << porque no?? It isn't like it didn't mean that BEFORE you learned it. Plus, now you got extra layers: "I R SRS BSNS, ANAL!1!"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:18 BingoBoingo: Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
lobbes: In other incidental preguntas: mircea_popescu, can you recommend good "introductory" reading on the subject of thought classification? It seems like the obvious fundamental to improving my cognitive processes
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .1.0*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
asciilifeform: ^ bug. shame on everybody, for not noticing.
asciilifeform: there's a stray MustNotZero(Stack(SP)); in ffa_calc.
asciilifeform: ( fixed in ch6 . )
asciilifeform: and it survived nearly a week of asciilifeform rereading whole thing every day.
asciilifeform: >> http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt#L63 << concretely.
asciilifeform begins to suspect that ~nobody actually read ch5...
asciilifeform: !A .0.1*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: ^ see.
asciilifeform: ( obviously was a paste artifact, from '%' case )
asciilifeform: !A .0.0*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
asciilifeform: Stack(SP) , given as folx haven't been reading attentively, is top of stack.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: still working on my solution to ch4
asciilifeform: and yes this is what asciilifeform does when he wakes up : rereads ffa. all of it.
ben_vulpes: so will not be reading ch5 yet
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: questions/comments ? does ch4 make sense to you ?
ben_vulpes: it does, this is my first encounter with a stack machine tho so thinking is proceeding slowly
asciilifeform: oh hm
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that ben_vulpes had done hard time on jvm
asciilifeform: and would have seen stackmachine
ben_vulpes: only the artsy fartsy guicrap
asciilifeform: lolk
asciilifeform: ever owned a rpn calc , ben_vulpes ?
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c? << if you CTRL+C the thing, it really can't get rid of it. you're expected to clean this up on your own so the vtron doesn't remove something it wasn't suppoesd to.
asciilifeform: mod6: the temp dir is primo example of an always-ok-to-kill item. i.e. one which the vtron run itself created and would never otherwise exist
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: have not, believe it or not
mod6: otherwise, my vtron handles the creation and deletion of that .gnupgtmp dir on its own.
asciilifeform: esp if it gets in the way of a subsequent run
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: odd! are they so rare today ?
mod6: im pretty sure we all had this discussion once upon a time, and it's only doing now, what we agreed to do before. I can go and dig for that.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: not rare, was just never beaten with one
asciilifeform: mod6: an aborted run of vtron should not be able to put a caltrop for subsequent run to die on. this is imho elementary.
ben_vulpes: had to go beat self with everything i was never beaten with starting in my early twenties when the republic kicked off
ben_vulpes: mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-11-05#1316693 is what i dig up on the topic☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-11-05 02:08 asciilifeform: -- a unique thing that never was and never will be again.
asciilifeform: aha
ben_vulpes: mod6: i don't actually recall any agreement on the topic, you did yours one way and i another, and i cannot recall how asciilifeform's original handled this
asciilifeform: well, let's reread http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory then :
asciilifeform: ... used 'tempfile' py lib
asciilifeform: gpgtmp = tempfile.mkdtemp()
asciilifeform: .... shutil.rmtree(gpgtmp)
asciilifeform: did not attempt to catch ctrl-c or any other signal.
asciilifeform: however the external 'tempfile' item, made gensymtronic dirs. so this never became a headache.
asciilifeform: https://docs.python.org/2/library/tempfile.html << gory details.
asciilifeform: let's quote ftr : 'Creates a temporary directory in the most secure manner possible. There are no race conditions in the directory’s creation. The directory is readable, writable, and searchable only by the creating user ID. The user of mkdtemp() is responsible for deleting the temporary directory and its contents when done with it.'
ben_vulpes: ah over is the key!
mod6: im getting pulled off here... i'ma try to circle back to this but...
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: an aborted run of vtron should not be able to put a caltrop for subsequent run to die on. this is imho elementary.
mod6: make_tmpdir($tdir);
mod6: main();
mod6: remove_tmpdir($tdir);
mod6: that's basically what happens ^
asciilifeform: mod6: what's make_tmpdir made of ?
mod6: and if you ^C the thing mid-way through the execution, you'll never hit remove_tmpdir
mod6: now, i can add an attempt to remove the thing before we even begin main(), but i thought we had discussed this. i'll have to dig up the old thread.
mod6: i don't have a chance right this moment to do that, will look tho when i can
asciilifeform: mod6: what actually ends up in $tdir ?
mod6: sub make_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `mkdir -p $dir && chmod 0700 $dir` if !-d $dir or die "$dir exists! $!";
mod6: }
mod6: sub remove_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `rm -rf $dir` if -d $dir;
mod6: }
asciilifeform: right but what's in $tdir
mod6: the keyring that gpg needs to run
asciilifeform: how do you create the ~name~ of the dir
mod6: my $tdir = get_homedir() . "/.gnupgtmp";
asciilifeform: umm
asciilifeform: no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself )
asciilifeform: second , as in the case discussed in the thread, if a run aborts, it creates a mine for next run to step on.
mod6: brb
asciilifeform: you can fix the second by erasing at the beginning of a run. but not the first.
asciilifeform: temp dir paths gotta be gensyms.
asciilifeform: ( make a string out of /dev/random crapola + current epoch time, say )
ben_vulpes: is mktemp widely installed enough to be used here?
asciilifeform: it's a gnu coreutil. so theoretically yes
asciilifeform: conceivably, like everything else, it is absent ~somewhere~ ( ... crapple ? )
ben_vulpes: yeah but fuck them in particular
ben_vulpes: iphones apparently vulnerable to SPECTRE too, hilariously
ben_vulpes: such sandbox very secure
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ~all archs with instruction-reordering and cache, are
asciilifeform: semantics-changing optimization belongs in ~compiler~ (if even there), not in iron.
asciilifeform: a la vliw.
asciilifeform: bbbut noooo, gotta reorder, because Only A Terorrist Would expect microshit to write sane compiler...
asciilifeform: ( on vliw, there was a pipeline, but proggy was expected to fill it 'by hand' . a kind of 'stick shift'. if a sub-instr stepped on another's toes, it was a eggog, like div0 is on x86 , abort . )
asciilifeform: on the other hand, pipeline idea per se was a mistake; same kind of failure to invent dataflowism as dma
asciilifeform: !#s dma
a111: 99 results for "dma", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dma
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
ben_vulpes: it all strikes me as so very silly on the surface but i have a weird lens of not having thought about any of the related shit until ~2013 and even then only through republican eyes
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: expand ?
ben_vulpes: i've never been burdened with the "This Is How Things Are" of the c-machine
asciilifeform: ( upstack : dma, interrupts, pipeline, instruction reorderer, 'hyperthreading', multiple buses, 'bridges' -- all are epicycles ( hey mircea_popescu ! ) from vonneumannism , where instructions 'push' (unrelated to stack concept) outputs, rather than 'pull' inputs as they oughta )
ben_vulpes: i only started thinking about compute because of bitcoin, and shortly after i started thinking about it in earnest (like maybe a month, six weeks something like that) you showed up in #b-a and /even at that point/ were talking about eg trinary circuits and computing fabric
ben_vulpes: then at that point the historical perspective was obviously necessary and i've simply never seen modern arch's as anything other than complexity madness in search of itty bitty performance gains on systems nobody can actually reason about
mircea_popescu: in other lulz from the road, "nombre ?" "credible" "apellido ?" "justin".
asciilifeform: credible?!
asciilifeform picture scene from film 'idiocracy', where hero gets 'his name', 'Not Sure', tattooed on forehead
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: is there some way of doing iteration with the opcodes from ch4 ?
mircea_popescu: ad hoc pseudonym! no good ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you tell me
ben_vulpes: hey man i only figured out how conditionals worked today
asciilifeform: so ben_vulpes do you see a jump ?
asciilifeform: or for that matter any record kept of old instructions , that the thing could jump to ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764893 << yeah tis a problem ;/☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 09:56 diana_coman: which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
mircea_popescu: seems atm we uncovered the deep limit on literate code.
mircea_popescu: code and comments do not, actually mix ; the fault is entirely of bad but entrenched habits of code writers.
asciilifeform: i'ma disagree that the use of paper is 'bad habit'
asciilifeform: it differentiates man from monkey.
mircea_popescu: "we are incapable to reflow and here's a magic number instead" differentiates monkey from man
mircea_popescu: not the other way round.
asciilifeform: code. does. not. reflow.
asciilifeform: ( whynot, is not a bad question, it reduces to the absence of a solution to the tednelson problem -- how to point into a structure unambiguously, other than by line # )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yeah i don't
ben_vulpes: the mega-clue is "any seven numbers"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if true, this is == "code is not worth either writing or reading"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764949☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 13:41 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'best thing is never to have programmed at all' or how did socrates put it.
ben_vulpes: want to corroborate what appear to be facts before plowing down a possibly retarded path though
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's no possible solution here ; i expect the defacto result will be that patches will consist of code, wrapped 80, including 0 comments, plus blogposts, consisting of commentary, with some haphazard code reference.
mircea_popescu: this is a sad state of affairs, as it limits v utility drastically ; neverthless -- commentary will be ok, long predated either v or code. code is more fragile.
mircea_popescu: needs halp.
asciilifeform: i'ma carry right on wrapping comments to 80, like father and grandfather did and like the gods intended.
asciilifeform: and anyone who dunlike it , can jump in a lake.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and write too little of them and too sparse and lose out to the other variant in the end.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason your father+grandfather haven't amounted to as much of a fart as a workable os.
asciilifeform: in the end man can lose out to cockroaches also.
mircea_popescu: not even good. vaguely workable.
mircea_popescu: in this case, atavism just loses out.
asciilifeform: 'do from cause, not purpose' necessarily includes not giving rat's arse re 'what will lose out to one day when sun burns out'
mircea_popescu: certainly.
asciilifeform: so far the folx who code on paper, wrote ffa, and the folx who wrote on display -- wrote what.
mircea_popescu: except that day will be rather sooner than that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway you turn it, the concept of magic number's not defensible.
asciilifeform: 'мы вас похороним' !11 (tm)(r)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rails -- have gauge. and spacetime itself appears to come with 'magic #s'.
asciilifeform: like it , or not.
asciilifeform: i won't disagree with abolishing'em when ~possible~ cleanly
mircea_popescu: hey, all i do is predict, i dun like or dislike.
mod6: asciilifeform picture scene from film 'idiocracy', where hero gets 'his name', 'Not Sure', tattooed on forehead << his arm, but yeah, great movie.
asciilifeform: but 'throw out yer printer' won't fly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somehow you jump from "my printer is shit, doesn't work properly" to "either magic number or throw out printer"
mircea_popescu: how about you know, fixing your printer so it works ?
asciilifeform: so it can create paper of arbitrary width ?!
mircea_popescu: if that's what it actually takes, yes.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu makes one -- i'll buy
shinohai: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: in any case, here's the logic : the proximate cause of the failure of "computer science" to amount to 0 (not epsilon, 0) since its inception is strictly due to poor treatment of comments as 2nd class item in code.
mircea_popescu: until this is resolved, the perennial results will repeat.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform should I even bother stopping in then?
mircea_popescu: it's actually SO BAD that people go re-implement the same damned X thing for the 90th time as a substitute of commentary ; and nobody looking understands wtf that is.
gabriel_laddel: and can I call M a NOT-LISPM?
mod6: <+asciilifeform> no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself ) << yeah, concurrent runs of my vtron are a no-go.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't at all disagree , re comments
asciilifeform: and overall culture of illiteracy
mod6: <+asciilifeform> second , as in the case discussed in the thread, if a run aborts, it creates a mine for next run to step on. << try to realize that this is on-purpose. im certain that we've had this discussion before and what exists is the outcome of that discussion.
mircea_popescu: this is the problem. you can't disagree with my theory and i have no practical solution for your pain.
asciilifeform: sorta why i favour the structure-editor and store-EVERYTHING-as-sexprs approach.
asciilifeform: it's the gordian cut.
mircea_popescu: as i say -- i see no way out here ; we'll end up with the v-code + blog-commentary ostrich-camel and god help us./
asciilifeform: it does however mean letting finally go of the vt100.
asciilifeform: and of 'plain text' idea.
mircea_popescu: sexprs for everything might work
asciilifeform: it's the only thing that works.
mircea_popescu: and there is no such thing as fucking "plain text"
asciilifeform: FINALLY
ben_vulpes: mod6: you gotta quote chapter and verse from the logs to support "outcome of that discussion".
mod6: i know, i haven't had a chance to look yet.
mod6: too busy.
mod6: anyway, im fine with changing whatever, just as long as we all agree.
ben_vulpes: logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-25#1353298 << e.g.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-12-25 23:10 asciilifeform: because, again, the whole 'plain text' jwzism and the attendant retardation. somehow 'lines' are a thing.
mod6: and the details of what the change is to do are clear so I can implement them as such.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which part of trilema is plaintext ? the part where it says fuckyoui or the part where it says fuckyou((norly)) ?
ben_vulpes: mod6: make a disposable tempdir like stans original and my port. i don't know whence this 'agree', stan's original was clear enough.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory. << i feel ya. if you wanna help me dig, that'd be awesome.
mircea_popescu: anyway bbs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~none of it, it's html, neh
mod6: my vtron has been discussed very much over the last 2+ years. i remember many disucssions where rules popped out.
mod6: i hope you're not trying to say that im simply making this up
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: do pop in, do speak
gabriel_laddel: aite. but ftr you can ASSIGN me stuff that I will do. eg, leaving CA, finding job. Eventually was convinced.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: and call it what you want, but imho it'll be moar appreciated as linux distro, than to label 'lispm'
gabriel_laddel: how about lispm-prime
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: this is good to hear.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: honestly why should anyone give a fuck to improve you.
trinque: what are you, someone's girlfriend here?
asciilifeform: trinque: barf all you like, the d00d nearly made a working cuntoo
trinque: are you kidding?
gabriel_laddel: trinque girlfri^H^H^Hintern
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc he did have a standalone gentoo-cooker neh
ben_vulpes: mod6: it's not a personal attack, i disagree that i agreed that v.pl was doing the Right Thing in leaving ~/.gnupgtmp hanging around
asciilifeform: the misfortunate thing is that he labeled it 'lispm'
trinque: who gives a shit. I made mine because it was trivial and I didn't want to hear about it anymore
asciilifeform: trinque: out of curiosity, do the two of you know one another from meatspace ? and hated for 20yrs ? or how
trinque: to date the guy has produced zero anyone uses, and I dunno why anyone entertains the larping and dick-pulling
trinque: asciilifeform: I don't need extra reasons to hate the useless
asciilifeform: trinque: he's what, 19 ?
gabriel_laddel: 25
asciilifeform: asciilifeform also had not produced anything useful to the republic, at 25
trinque: guy pops in to give monologues about his psychological needs and that's it, and was ever it
ben_vulpes: point also is not absolute age but years bouncing off the republic
asciilifeform: at 25 asciilifeform unsuccessfully peddled an industrial automation linux+sbcl+proggy-in-a-crate actually quite reminiscent of gabriel_laddel's thing
trinque: either to affirm some nonsense or surface against which to act out
asciilifeform: trinque: he asked 'gimme useful item to do' neh
trinque: he was almost, maybe, sort of going to do an archiver and pdf-to-texter
trinque: where's that, or was that just a paste one day when he needed a self-esteem boost
gabriel_laddel: never pdf to text, but yes, archiver, NN via FG, RSA impl in CL, yes linux distro
trinque: I dunno how this one idiot kid slipped through the crucify-the-useless process
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: here's a shot : take this http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760563 needleman-wunsch, and turn it into a standalone ( use sbcl's save-lisp-and-die knob, say ) difftron util. come up with own format.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-29 05:34 asciilifeform: >>>>> https://archive.is/jMMqT
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: also if you have an rsa, post it plox
trinque: gabriel_laddel: so where the fuck are these then.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform sorry, this is tasks I HAVE ACCEPTED onto stack.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what's yer medium-ter
asciilifeform: m item
asciilifeform: i.e. what brings gabriel_laddel to #t ?
gabriel_laddel: the order I was anticipating was: M release for tmsr (free, obo), then NNFG, then RSA. lobbes has done/ is doing archiver
gabriel_laddel: I'm here for the lispm, and staying for the FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: what's NNFG ?
gabriel_laddel: training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them
trinque: this is jam-tomorrow in asciilifeform's parlance eh?
asciilifeform: trinque: not as if we're awash in recruits. we have here this 1legged d00d, says he wants to fight.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: didja ever download the 1GB example FG bin ?
gabriel_laddel: yes.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: tried training on it ? vs , say, on /dev/urandom
asciilifeform: what was result ?
asciilifeform: ( because asciilifeform actually did a very similar experiment as a student, in early 2000s )
gabriel_laddel: I never got a chance bc fighting all the idiots in CA myself. Same with archiver.Got banned before was able to host in house someone OK'd me for.
asciilifeform: do you now have a comp and able to work ?
trinque: I lived in Portland among the pantsuit cunts
asciilifeform: i presume yes ?
gabriel_laddel: yes.
trinque: left. ben_vulpes also left.
asciilifeform: trinque: fwiw i have never set foot in those lands. only met east cunts.
trinque: what kind of appeal is this. "oh but I have limitations"
gabriel_laddel: trinque I'm in ohio now, fwiw
gabriel_laddel: you said LEAVE DUMBASS. I thought about it -- left.
asciilifeform: aaanyway gabriel_laddel knows how to do this experiment. i look forward to hearing result
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform we're cohered.
asciilifeform: there we go.
trinque: heh, so then. quit stimulants, dumbass. and I'll consider removing the negrate.
asciilifeform: maybe d00d sobers up for a day and does a job !
asciilifeform: hell knows it's happened befoar
shinohai: !~step 1
jhvh1: shinohai: Error: "step" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: ( and given that i ain't his personal physician , i dun even care if he does the job while tripping , or while sober, so long as he does )
trinque: hey after mircea_popescu's various whallops on me about weed, I gave up daily caffeine even.
shinohai: !~step1
jhvh1: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
trinque: wiser folks hitting you on the head is a kindness.
asciilifeform: trinque: i'd bet d00d has spells of sobriety, he has afaik already outlived the expected life of a serious meth aficionado
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform neh! i have a magic box, into which i pour the transcendent substance that makes trilema. it comes out as ascii yes, but how is it plain.
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's head 'plain text' means strictly v100, i.e. this convenient (too convenient) item 'the customer Got Accustomed To'(tm)(r) in 1950s and is old, tired, being asked to do all sorts of contradictory things like sane diffability, structure-preserving edits, etc
mircea_popescu: in my head, "plain text" means something else.
asciilifeform: whereas it's just an array of asciiola and a few control chars (e.g. lf)
mircea_popescu: formally : a stackless, hapless grammar incapable of recursion operating upon a certain finite symbol list.
mircea_popescu: heapless*
asciilifeform: dunno that the meat parser is stackless
mircea_popescu: that's mp-plaintext, almost exactly your ada
asciilifeform: ( or heapless. consider, where do the external symbols get pulled from . )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect i should have said single stack.
asciilifeform: single yes.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: it's rather like... ffacalc, lol
mircea_popescu: indeed.
mircea_popescu: here, from random article : Sorry, furfies looking for group, I guess I fucked this one up for you ((But had you NOT complained about it -- who knows, maybe you'd still have PMs available ?)).\n\nPS. Today as in <A href=http://trilema.com/2014/askfm-laid-bare-or-whats-half-a-million-uniques-to-you/>2014</a>,
mircea_popescu: that is the "plaintext", that comes out as the other plaintext, displayed (via the ~yet other~ plaintext, the html)
asciilifeform: ok that'd be a platonic plaintextitude, lol, not a physical item.
mircea_popescu: i guess!
asciilifeform: speaking of...
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .BE7EA8B353CF33FA1226E6F87F97CE980353879CA9F00107C2DE4E123ECBE000.7D2AF9FAA2CD4F3CCFE8489B9BE1FE5F3A600D4E1E72A7C0041F0B793848FB2F.FA55F3F5459A9E799FD0913737C3FCBE74C01A9C3CE54F80083E16F27091F65F X #
pehbot: asciilifeform: 5CF3CFFB385F801408DFF1BF9D66B57C4B5C2ED8E896811D36162BD33B626D7E
asciilifeform: ^ preview/puzzle pre-ch6. solve what X does.
mircea_popescu: which is why the whole "with mine owne eyes" screams were all about re previous pass of this, gpg-plaintext.
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: i sadly lacked the formalism to usefully express it then. but now -- have.
asciilifeform: soo analogously 'plaintext' would be 'the integers'(tm)(r) whereas asciilifeform's conception would then be the finite-bitness integers one actually gets to use on a comp
mod6: so previously, and im still digging in the logs...
mod6: the idea behind leaving the .gnupgtmp around after execution, is there because i wanted it to be there. not weather this is the Right Thing or not.
mod6: its basically a failure state -- .gnupgtmp should only be around if something FAILED.
mircea_popescu: mod6 any particular reason to want ? aid debugging ? or ?
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: mod6: the most serious bug is not even the failure to delete the tempdir, but that every run of the vtron uses ~same one~
asciilifeform: mod6: it makes, e.g., parallelly running vtrons on same box, impossible
mod6: and if it did fail, then perhaps one can go and look at what went on -- at the time, there were a lot of seals that didn't verify for instance.
mod6: i shouldn't say a lot. from time to time, one of alf's previous key ones would creep into ones flow or whatever, and you may want to check for yourself weather it verifies or not. or what gnupg might have been up to while executing v.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764935 << prolly worth it, "re-examine history with new theoretical framework"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 13:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << i'm quite tempted to give the archive another combing and make a sequel to my http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165 item
asciilifeform: mod6: imho a good debugism would be a flag that forces the printing to stderr of all external proggy (gpg, gnupatch) invocations , and their args
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: mod6 i suspect the idea is sound, but maybe the posixism of "single fixed file" dun serve
mod6: anyway, if you see a .gnupgtmp, something failed. either the software failed, or the user interrupted the thing. either way, the responsibility has been on the user to determine if he should delete ~/.gnupgtmp or not.
mircea_popescu: as he says, there be the logs.
mod6: now, for the concurrent part... now that's something I never did consider.
mod6: before i ever 'green light' that kinda use of my vtron, i'd certainly like to test it myself etc. and ya, that dir would have to be unique.
mircea_popescu: mod6 why not use the system logs instead ?
mod6: maybe mktmpdir is sound for that. however, i remember discussing that before as well..and one fear that i had is that if you use mktmpdir, then you have a /tmp/23429adfsew32 dir.
mod6: which worries me about /tmp being flushed mid, or at anytime during execution.
mod6: sorry, lemme read back here. was just trying to type there.
asciilifeform: mod6: afaik this dun actually happen on any known unix
trinque: I don't think there's ever a case where , yeap
asciilifeform: if you have a handle to it, it dun get zapped
asciilifeform: ( thinkaboutit, tmp would be entirely useless if this were not so )
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: afaik this dun actually happen on any known unix << this the rub tho. have to make sure that it actually /NEVER/ happens. i can't have people failing in anyway with this thing.
mircea_popescu: but he's stuck managing fucking state.
asciilifeform: mod6: you can't make sure that the mains cord dun get pulled mid-press either
asciilifeform: for so long as vtron uses gpg shell-out, it's stuck with the tmp dir crapola
mod6: the good news is, hopefully, your pgptron will be built into any new vtrons
asciilifeform: afaik the best known solution is the one i used -- use the script lang's purpose-made lib for the item
mod6: no libs
asciilifeform: ( i do not know from memory, what perl's is )
mod6: anyway, we'll figure something out. that part im not worried about.
asciilifeform: ... or make own.
mod6: it sounds like my idea of "have something of a corpus to look at after failure" isn't as handy as simply just throwing it out.
asciilifeform: this corpus should consist 100% of stderr output.
asciilifeform: rather than rubbish left in tmp
asciilifeform: user should not have to look in tmp.
mod6: its not rubbish
mod6: and i don't think people want 1Mb of shit dumped to stdout
mod6: it's the ~keyring~
asciilifeform: wait why is it mb of shit
asciilifeform: see, asciilifeform's orig trick with tmp was ~specifically~ to abolish the gpg keyring nonsense
asciilifeform: i don't want to see it. ever. if i'm seeing it, vtron is broken !
mod6: and here's where we come full circle. :]
mod6: i gotta find these logs. im actually now convinced that we've discussed this very item not just once, but maybe even 3 or 4 times.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764975 << very sad fucking item, i would fire the producer. contains "if he were" boilerplate verbiage copy-pasted in there, for utter shame.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:19 asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/o6uML/?raw=true << he confessed, 'pleabargained'.
asciilifeform: in fact, if we weren't planning to take gpg behind the shed and shoot it, i'd publish my keyring-abolition patch ( gpg then DEMANDS pubkey FILE on cmdline for any op that uses one. ditto privates. )
mod6: anyway, i appreciate all the feedback. its obvious that there is passion to get this part of my vtron right.
mod6: lemme break off here for a minute, i'll keep digging up the logs to prove we talked this over.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's an autogenned item, aha
mod6: bbs.
mircea_popescu: goes well with the "didn't even afford paralelconstruct". this is some seriously low effort "job".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764988 << good idea.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
asciilifeform: old bureaucrat, unpopular ( perhaps ) at office, picked as scapegoat for the infector leak of that year
asciilifeform: fell over like a bowling pin after 'shown instrments'
asciilifeform: ( h. martin )
asciilifeform: signed, i suspect, what was put in front of him to sign, without even reading.
mircea_popescu: why should he give a shit in either case.
mircea_popescu: old guy, etc.
asciilifeform: there's 2 ways those go.
asciilifeform: this one -- went the 2nd.
asciilifeform: ( 1st looks like http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-19#517160 . )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-02-19 19:41 asciilifeform: russian folk rhyme: 'Дедушка в поле гранату нашел. Взял он ее, к сельсовету пошел. Дернул колечко, кинул в окно. Дедушка старый — ему все равно.'
asciilifeform: !A .1.0*#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: in other lulz, http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2018/Jan/12 >> ahahahahahaha the amd fritz chip, apparently finally killed
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-14#1555295 << re:.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-14 16:10 kmalkki: apu2 (with AMD PSP) does respond properly to JTAG IDCODE
asciilifeform: '... stack-based overflow in the function EkCheckCurrentCert. This function is called from TPM2_CreatePrimary with user controlled data - a DER encoded [6] endorsement key (EK) certificate stored in the NV storage....'
trinque: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-PSP-Disable-Option << totally unrelated, pay no attention
asciilifeform: trinque: dun help with bios-jtagging tho. it gotta be disabled AT RESET
asciilifeform: which you naturally can't do from bios.
asciilifeform: ( uefi dun get read until close to end of warmup process )
trinque: I'm sure it doesn't work. meant only to marketing-work
asciilifeform: however with the 0day -- might be doable.
asciilifeform: (until patched.)
asciilifeform: 'A TLV (type-length-value) structure is parsed and copied on to the parent stack frame. Unfortunately, there are missing bounds checks, and a specially crafted certificate can lead to a stack overflow...' etc
asciilifeform: btw what does trb's ssl do with crafted der-encoded derpery ?
asciilifeform: anybody try ?
mod6: ok. asciilifeform, ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, phf, all others interested, here's the orig thread (as ben_vulpes also found earlier): http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/76gSk/?raw=true
mod6: It seems that asciilifeform has been saying the same thing all along.
mod6: And I've taken a bit of a different direction, perhaps because of 'File::Tempdir' or some nonsense.
mod6: So here's what I'll do: I'll revisit this, and try to come up with a unique tempdir. This tempdir is to be used exactly once. Created at run time. Removed at the end of run time. If execution fails or is interrupted, nothing will be done. It'll be left hanging there until the user removes it manually.
mod6: in the case of failure, i could try to remove the tmpdir during the 'Death()' call or something. But with interrupted execution, there's no way to know when the interrupt is coming. Nothing to do about it here.
ben_vulpes: it is fine to leave the tempdir in place so long as it is uniquely named
ben_vulpes: the important thing is that it not be the same tempdir every time so that interrupted executions don't block the next execution
mod6: Ok, will look into a better way to handle this. I appreciate your passionate want to make this better.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764988 << good idea. << fwiw, i'll be working on this to ensure that the bug fix is correct.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
mod6: then ill dig into the tmpdir thing. i want to ensure that the bug fix i've made is correct before I proceed.
asciilifeform: neato mod6 . thx for putting in the sweat.
ben_vulpes: yeah really, muchas gracias mod6
mod6: <3
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763210 << once i realized what was going on...☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
ben_vulpes: dude The20YearIRCloud the fuck even is the point of a bouncer that's constantly disconnecting
asciilifeform: what makes you think it's a bouncer, ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: i thought that's what irccloud advertised
ben_vulpes: a modern IRC client that keeps you connected, with none of the baggage
ben_vulpes: possibly just normal idiot browserclient!
asciilifeform: 'Stay connected, chat from anywhere, and never miss a message.'
asciilifeform: lolyes
ben_vulpes: i am having just a terrible time with the else-clause pushing a zero to the stack
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: hm ?
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .0{[foo]}{[bar]}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: bar
asciilifeform: !A .0{[foo]}{[bar]} Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: bar0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes really hates typing '_' or wat
ben_vulpes: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}_
pehbot: ben_vulpes: foo
ben_vulpes: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}
pehbot: ben_vulpes: foo
asciilifeform: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo
asciilifeform: !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]} Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: foo0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
ben_vulpes: hm
asciilifeform: this is an engineering tension, ben_vulpes ; i'll grant that the trailing _ is ugly. however it makes the mechanism simpler, all { are handled in exactly same way, and ditto all }
asciilifeform: however the _ can be made to disappear, at the cost of an added moving part. i will ask ben_vulpes to draw this moving part, as exercise.
asciilifeform: feel free to submit a patch.
ben_vulpes: wbool flag, you mentioned iirc
asciilifeform: so draw it.
ben_vulpes: gotta have working model in head first before patching!
asciilifeform: ( what we have right now, is that we have no 'if-clause' or 'else-clause', physically, they are exactly the same thing, simply happen to be a pair of'em )
asciilifeform: a { takes a value off the stack and, if it is 0 : ignores further ops until it gets a ~matching~ } , then leaves a 1 on the stack; if it is a 1, proceeds to the next op , and when a closing } is found , leaves a 0 on the stack.
asciilifeform: and btw i gotta take back http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 -- in that i have nfi how to 'abolish the _' while making nested conditionals still work.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:07 phf: using the boolean we execute an if/else branch which either swaps the two numbers and drops the top most '_, or drops the top most without swapping _. the final drop _ is an artifact of conditional implementation that always leaves a value on the stack.
asciilifeform: grrrr http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763210 i mean.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
asciilifeform: aaaactually i can think of 1 way :
asciilifeform: if { were to LEAVE THE SELECTOR on the stack , instead of eating it
asciilifeform: then the optional else-clause could be preceded by a ~
asciilifeform: and trigger on the negation of that selfsame selector.
asciilifeform: otherwise , if we do not want the else-clause, we drop _ it.
asciilifeform: phf, ben_vulpes , mircea_popescu , et al ^
asciilifeform: so {[foo]}{[bar]} would then instead look like {[foo]}~{[bar]}_ grrrrrr
ben_vulpes: i has it!
ben_vulpes: sweet
asciilifeform: hm?
ben_vulpes: a solution!
asciilifeform: post?
ben_vulpes: well, gonna reread vpatch for ch04 and then submit with my seal but sure, gimme a sec
asciilifeform: patch on top of ch5 plox
asciilifeform: or it won't go into ch6 (or anywhere)
ben_vulpes: i haven't bitten off the patch yet, and might not get to it by the time you release ch6, this all takes me a lot longer than phf or lobbes
asciilifeform: consider describing it here then
ben_vulpes: oh sorry sorry, i meant a solution to the ch4 puzzle
asciilifeform: point being, if you patch on an existing ffa_calc, it'll have to be reground
asciilifeform: aaaaaaaa lok
asciilifeform: i thought ben_vulpes was speaking of a soln to the branch thing
ben_vulpes: nah, dun expect such of me; i draft plans for field construction of catapaults i don't invent them
asciilifeform: dunno, this item is in principle accessible to the n00b
asciilifeform: it dun use no fancy book-larnin'
ben_vulpes: i'll noodle on it as appropriate, sure
ben_vulpes: (ch 4 puzzle accessible to noob as well, but still took me much grinding of headgears)
asciilifeform: so let's hear ben_vulpes's answ
asciilifeform: or rather, feed to pehbot
asciilifeform: !!pehbot .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ( ben_vulpes's solution goes here ) Q
asciilifeform: !A .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ( ben_vulpes's solution goes here ) Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000030000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: ... oughta output ABCD etc
ben_vulpes: oh man i didn't even test against hex values
asciilifeform: why would it matter
asciilifeform: recall how constants work to begin with
ben_vulpes: i know that it shouldn't, but i do like to actually test things
ben_vulpes: lest i ironclad myself
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt/tree/ffa/ffacalc/ffa_calc.adb#L232 << for reference
ben_vulpes: !A .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: ben_vulpes: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD
asciilifeform: !A . ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF
asciilifeform: !A . ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006
asciilifeform: !A . ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004
asciilifeform: !A . ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003
asciilifeform: !A . ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: !A . ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: unsurprisingly, it worx
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes is a winrar
asciilifeform: now he can look at the 'official' answr in ch5.
ben_vulpes: caftans for the caftan god
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why `int' for EOF and `Integer' for Sadness_Code ?
asciilifeform: no good reason.
asciilifeform: ( 'int' reflects that it gets used strictly in the c ffi , was orig idea )
ben_vulpes: hmk
asciilifeform: os.ads/adb is to corral all of the unix-specific uglies
asciilifeform: it gets replaced wholesale when porting to, e.g., a dedicated micro
asciilifeform: ( yes there will be a mips32 etc )
shinohai: http://archive.is/A0xiZ <<< How Roy Moore deals with the opposition.
asciilifeform: 'Tina Johnson, who first came to public notice for accusing Senate candidate Roy Moore of grabbing her in his office in the early 1990s' << how to parse this sentence ?
asciilifeform: [accusing ....] [in the early 1990s] ?
asciilifeform: or .... [accusing ... in the early 1990s] ?
asciilifeform: i.e. when was the accusation ?
shinohai: It's Alabama journalism, so don't expect too much ....
ben_vulpes: very specific with the accusation history too, in the office is where she accused him!
asciilifeform: no but this q has an answer
asciilifeform: what is it
ben_vulpes: she went to wal-mart! crucial detail!
ben_vulpes tunes out
asciilifeform: walmartistan! 'filtration system, a marvel to behoooold...'(tm)(r)
ben_vulpes: hey asciilifeform didja have any objections to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759143 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 trinque: why not have one file, manifest, and you edit it, then vdiff the whole shebang.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i dun recall that this scheme was ever fleshed out
asciilifeform: into something to which i'd have , or not have, an objection
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759146 seemed pretty fleshed out to me☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ?
asciilifeform: it doesn't solve the fundamental problem
asciilifeform: which is that ~moves~ are ugly and info-destroying
asciilifeform: i oughta be able to take a 1MB text file, cut it in the middle, and swap the halves, and the resulting diff to be a few lines.
ben_vulpes: different problem, different problem.
trinque: question there wasn't just moves. it was how to ever have two patches with same parent, that edited different files, end up same item.
asciilifeform: nope. same problem, in essence.
asciilifeform: trinque: consider how i solved this in trb.
asciilifeform: ( 'this' being 'same parent ... end up same item' )
trinque: the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
asciilifeform: let's concretize
asciilifeform: look at the graph in http://btcbase.org/patches
trinque: already has been.
asciilifeform: aite , if trinque gets it , i won't waste logspace
trinque: you edit db.cpp. I edit main.cpp. how does someone now use both of those pieces of work in a 3rd patch.
asciilifeform: by copying the db.cpp from asciilifeform's tree, the main.cpp from trinque's , and making sure they do not semantically conflict , then vdiffing.
asciilifeform: bang, valid coalescing.
asciilifeform: just like how, e.g., asciilifeform_and_now_we_have_eatblock coalesces mod6_fix_dumpblock_params and asciilifeform_ver_now_5_4_and_irc_is_gone_and_now_must_give_ip
ben_vulpes: what irks me about this is that one can make a patch that depends on a state of the codebase that is not a valid press.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the only item required to be a hook on which a valid press hangs, is individual patch
ben_vulpes: or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches.
asciilifeform: how you make a vdiff is yer own biznis, can make with magnetic needle for all anybody cares
trinque: how does this not expand to still more antecedents dragged into child patch as time goes on?
asciilifeform: trinque: why would anything end up 'dragged in'
asciilifeform: can draw a hypothetical for asciilifeform's enlightenment plox ?
trinque: patch A1 and A2 are peers, happened to different files with same starting codebase state. you proposed writing a B that encompases whatever changes plus the bodies of A1 and A2.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: think of it this way : EVERY time you edit ANYTHING, you created 'invalid' state, i.e. one that could never have been the result of a sequence of presses of previously-existing patches !
asciilifeform: trinque: if B needs A1 and A2, it naturally gets parented by both. if it needs instead modified A1' and A2' , then naturally each of those is parented by the respective A1 or A2
asciilifeform: there's no particular reason for anything extraneous to get draggedin
asciilifeform: i am so far failing to see the mega-problem
asciilifeform: i pointedly do NOT agree that 'having to use an external tool like cp command' is a problem. for fuckssake you have to use a non-vtron tool to edit the coad ! vtron dun replace emacs.
trinque: you do not see how it's fundamentally retarded to consider db.cpp a distinct thing, rather than the scroll "trb" as the *thing*
asciilifeform: trinque: if you really hate files, you are welcome to make the whole proggy 1 file
asciilifeform: this will then reflect the desired semantics.
asciilifeform: but do not try to cripple MY programs into 'being 1 file'.
asciilifeform: or ask writers of books to dispense with chapters
asciilifeform: cutting items into named parts, is useful, ffs
asciilifeform: i think i grasp what trinque wants : for vtron to actually reflect the semantics of the code being juggled
asciilifeform: this is not actually possible in a general way, it'd have to ~understand~ cpp, ada, cl, whatevers
trinque: db.cpp is nothing by itself, other than "ono this file was too big"
trinque: sure it is; I proposed before that the antecedent hash ought to be the hash of the concatenation
trinque: to date no one has critiqued that view directly.
asciilifeform: this TAKES AWAY detail that is currently preserved.
asciilifeform: and imposes nonsensical constraint that would not otherwise be imposed.
trinque: nonsense indeed.
asciilifeform: patches that do not touch db.cpp , in any way shape or form, should not lock it into a state or depend on a particular state of it
trinque: I do not need to edit the fucking thing to depend on a particular state of it
asciilifeform: trinque: your tree ends up a spaghetti of radiating strands that can never recoalesce.
trinque: I am not going to sidestep onto that point. I made one, have anything to say to it?
asciilifeform: that it completely thermonukes the usefulness of v, to me personally.
asciilifeform: and i'ma have nothing to do with any project that makes use of such a system.
asciilifeform: want moar ? or get the idea
asciilifeform: take for example http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected . in properly working v, it ONLY depends on db.cpp being a particular hash . and does NOT lock you into anything else being anything else in particular.
ben_vulpes: the point that trinque is making is that you can change other files in such a way that ruins maxint_locks
asciilifeform: if instead it demanded that your tree, to apply it, be bitwise-identical to asciilifeform's tree when he made it -- you could only build on this patch if you reground ALL of EVERYONE's work every single fucking time
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yes and this is coarse error in pilotage. THIS, not the fact that v permits you.
asciilifeform: knife will cut artery as well as sausage. not knife's job,to know what it cuts.
trinque: we come to a deep political disagreement there
trinque: the more constraints against idiocy the better.
asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around
trinque: there can be multiple trees just fine in that world
asciilifeform: i will not tie OWN hands to possibly constrain some idiot somewhere.
trinque: hasn't yet been any reason someone benefits by having your edit to maxlocks but having done something batshit to say, a file db.cpp depends upon
asciilifeform: if trb tree can continue to look EXACTLY like http://btcbase.org/patches ( with new leaves growing ) -- your vtron is usable. if not -- not.
asciilifeform: trinque: the fact that the patch gets to be small, readable, and cleanly coalesceable . it correctly reflects the fact that it nonconflicts with items outside of db.cpp .
asciilifeform: it makes no superfluous constraints .
asciilifeform: superflous constraints, 'just in case', is how the talmudists ended up the way they are.
asciilifeform: y'know how this ends,trinque, it ends with having to line yer house with rope ('eruv'), pay some d00d to dial a modem to turn yer stove on and off...
asciilifeform: but i'ma rewind upstack : trinque is entirely free to begin using this type of v right now ! by coalescing whole proggy into 1 file. then he can see what ends up happening to his tree.
asciilifeform: that's what 'hash the codebase' equals. 1 file.
ben_vulpes: i'm going to tap out, will wait for mircea_popescu to pour some more fuel on this one.
asciilifeform: srsly i dunget why all of you lot so much want to break v. it WORKS.
asciilifeform: and is SIMPLE .
ben_vulpes: can dig trench here or ten feet sideways, literally does not matter to me.
asciilifeform: and yes it relies on operators not to do blitheringly idiotic things. this is why v is possible in tmsr and not at microshit.
asciilifeform: ( and moreover, if operators INSIST on committing war crimes, it makes cleanup trivial. called negrate. )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: arguing has honed how i see the problem at least
ben_vulpes: not going to go break everything, at least today.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765599 << I'm not dignifying this shit.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:48 asciilifeform: srsly i dunget why all of you lot so much want to break v. it WORKS.
asciilifeform: it's a fact. it works.
asciilifeform: the patches are readable because they are minimal, and local changes stay local.
asciilifeform: and at the risk of repeating , trinque can ~already~ do his style, in the existing v. whereas asciilifeform can't do worth shit in a trinque-style v.
asciilifeform: mod6's 'makefiles' was able to cleanly build on 'asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected' , without regrinding anything. i still fail to understand what would have been gained by forcing mod6 to ~manually~ regrind the entire history of entire fucking world in order to produce 'makefiles' ( and for the latter to consequently weigh a megabyte , instead of 10kb !!! )
ben_vulpes: ehehehentirely unrelatedly, asciilifeform, what's with the odd capitalization of mUx in ch4?
asciilifeform: because U
asciilifeform: i thought it was clear