log☇︎
79 entries in 0.612s
asciilifeform: dijkstra spent whole life killing trees on subj of deadlocking etc. but the subj is deep enuff for 9000 dijkstras.
asciilifeform suspects that dijkstra would've enjoyed 'peh', where there aint even such a thing as a jump
asciilifeform: dijkstra's 'spaghetti'
asciilifeform: ( in re the q of how to keep thread from wedging ~each other~, consult dijkstra, not asciilifeform )
a111: Logged on 2014-04-29 22:56 asciilifeform: 'Dijkstra said angrily. (He’d been visibly shaking his head through out the talk even before this outburst.) “How many bugs are we going to tolerate?” he demanded. “Seven,” Teitelman shot back.'
a111: Logged on 2017-05-23 02:41 asciilifeform: per dijkstra's 'testing can demonstrate the presence of bugs, but never their absence'
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 15:33 asciilifeform: Mocky: to function as a troo vtronicist, gotta grasp the concept, described by e.g. dijkstra, that a line of code you have written is not an asset, but an expense. (specifically, an expense against the time budget of other thinking people, who must read and grasp what you have written. )
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 15:33 asciilifeform: Mocky: to function as a troo vtronicist, gotta grasp the concept, described by e.g. dijkstra, that a line of code you have written is not an asset, but an expense. (specifically, an expense against the time budget of other thinking people, who must read and grasp what you have written. )
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 15:33 asciilifeform: Mocky: to function as a troo vtronicist, gotta grasp the concept, described by e.g. dijkstra, that a line of code you have written is not an asset, but an expense. (specifically, an expense against the time budget of other thinking people, who must read and grasp what you have written. )
asciilifeform: Mocky: to function as a troo vtronicist, gotta grasp the concept, described by e.g. dijkstra, that a line of code you have written is not an asset, but an expense. (specifically, an expense against the time budget of other thinking people, who must read and grasp what you have written. ) ☟︎☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: ( attach a dynamo to dijkstra's corpse prior to testing, yes 'oughta tell From First Principles!111' )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it occurs to me this sexy problem item says what dijkstra was belabouring to say above, except a) correctly and b) fucking briefly.
mircea_popescu closes the page and sets bozo bit on dijkstra.
asciilifeform pictures dijkstra on harley 'hog', vroom
mircea_popescu: where was dijkstra ?
asciilifeform: what kind of republic ought e.g. dijkstra to have declared ? a meatspace venetian one ?
asciilifeform: with the degree of magnitude faster/more capacitous comp , it is ~stupidity~, in the form of complexicrud, that accumulates fatally. and , worst of all, dijkstra knew this
asciilifeform: difference in degree becomes a difference in kind. dijkstra imho oughta have mentioned the cable, to stand up his argument
mircea_popescu: for the record, i find it impossible to discern sense and nonsense in this dijkstra article, they're so tightly coupled together.
mircea_popescu: for the record, that dijkstra piece on "radical" bla bla is so fucking idiotic...
asciilifeform: i have a buncha dead tree, but i dunthink they contain all of dijkstra.
asciilifeform: dijkstra's -- imho well-founded -- pov was that computer became the domain of the half-educated, the hucksters, and the miscellaneous scum, because what passed for thinking people, ~surrendered~ it to them
asciilifeform: the dijkstra piece linked earlier, btw, is interesting in re subj of 'mathstards'
a111: Logged on 2018-01-16 06:15 apeloyee: FFA homework is fun! I'd like to present a homework problem of my own, the following Perfectly Innocent (tm) patch: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/tcvvO/?raw=true . The task is to find a bug WITHOUT running the code (that's cheating, per Dijkstra: " we see to it that the programming language in question has not been implemented on campus so that students are protected from the temptation to...
apeloyee: FFA homework is fun! I'd like to present a homework problem of my own, the following Perfectly Innocent (tm) patch: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/tcvvO/?raw=true . The task is to find a bug WITHOUT running the code (that's cheating, per Dijkstra: " we see to it that the programming language in question has not been implemented on campus so that students are protected from the temptation to... ☟︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall what dijkstra said ?
ag3nt_zer0: heh this reminds me of TMSR: "E.W. Dijkstra who suggested IT companies not to hire programmers without a suitable knowledge in Latin."
asciilifeform: dijkstra's 'testing reveals presence of bugs, but not absence' applies just the same to rng.
asciilifeform: per dijkstra's 'testing can demonstrate the presence of bugs, but never their absence' ☟︎
asciilifeform: per dijkstra's 'tests reveal presence of bugs, but never their absence'
asciilifeform: y'know, crapolade that dijkstra warned against in 1972, when it barely existed even.
asciilifeform: they are, to borrow from dijkstra, 'cost, not revenue, no matter how many people insist on writing them down on the wrong side of the ledger'
phf: i think it's great if you only use twm/x11 to spawn a couple of xterms, so you can run your mathematica and write your Fortran simulation code. sort of a Dijkstra lisp machine, when exploratory interactivity is not the main goal. building this whole infrastructure on it was a folly
phf: dijkstra could do it, why not you
a111: Logged on 2014-04-29 22:56 asciilifeform: dijkstra once read a lecture, and exclaimed 'how many bugs shall we tolerate?!' one wag stands up - '3!'
asciilifeform: dijkstra, 'structured programming'
assbot: 1 results for 'dijkstra testing' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=dijkstra+testing
ascii_butugychag: !s dijkstra testing
ascii_field ain't dijkstra either
mircea_popescu: and i'm dijkstra now ?
ascii_field: actually it was pretty obvious to herr dijkstra
phf: i'm pretty bad a dijkstra programming, i need to see the system behave to reason clearly about it, and c is not it. besides the translation is the tirvial part
asciilifeform: btw, iirc mircea_popescu once asked why dijkstra is not taught in american schools. the reason is not a secret: he openly taught that fewer people have any business programming computer than performing surgery
ascii_field: nah that's dijkstra
asciilifeform: 'every program contains at least one bug. every program can be reduced by at least one line. ergo, every program can be reduced to precisely one line - which doesn't work.' (dijkstra?)
asciilifeform: recall dijkstra's observation re: how we might regard an astronomer who introduces self as 'working in telescopy' ?
decimation: dijkstra: "My conclusion is that it is becoming most urgent to stop to consider programming primarily as the minimization of a cost/performance ratio. We should recognise that already now programming is much more an intellectual challenge: the art of programming is the art of organising complexity, of mastering multitude and avoiding its bastard chaos as effectively as possible.
ascii_launchpad: (from when it was mostly clear, to dijkstra et al that -this- would come, to, well, when the symptoms became impossible to ignore for anyone half awake)
asciilifeform: if i say that i -disagree- with dijkstra - then i do not believe these things.
asciilifeform: let's say i said 'i think dijkstra was doing it right.' that would imply that i am in favour of structured programming, against the use of 'goto', and in favour of 99.999% of programming students being flunked and similar fraction of the practitioners of that profession - being fired.
asciilifeform: and likewise dijkstra
asciilifeform: dijkstra died as lived - honest man
asciilifeform: dijkstra never betrayed
mircea_popescu: i had forgotten just how on point dijkstra is.
ascii_field is rather fond of dijkstra
mircea_popescu: anyway, thank god dijkstra died and i don't have to read 2014 abominations from him like i have to read 2014 "manifest destiny" abominations from buffett.
assbot: E.W.Dijkstra Archive: The strengths of the academic enterprise (EWD 1175) ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8dLwR )
gabriel_laddel: Another interesting EWD for those who've not had the pleasure of reading Dijkstra: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD11xx/EWD1175.html
mircea_popescu: wasn't dijkstra dead tho ?
assbot: E.W. Dijkstra Archive: The threats to computing science (EWD898) ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8bF05 )
assbot: Logged on 29-04-2014 22:56:06; asciilifeform: 'Dijkstra said angrily. (He’d been visibly shaking his head through out the talk even before this outburst.) “How many bugs are we going to tolerate?” he demanded. “Seven,” Teitelman shot back.'
asciilifeform: 'On the cruelty of really teaching computing science' (dijkstra)
assbot: 14 results for 'dijkstra' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=dijkstra
asciilifeform: !s dijkstra
asciilifeform: see dijkstra, yes.
asciilifeform: 'testing can reveal the presence of bugs, but never their absence.' (dijkstra?)
asciilifeform: dijkstra actually believed in proofs
decimation: dijkstra would have been a fan of 'fits in head'
decimation: I became depressed by dijkstra when he demonstrated how impossible it would be to fully check a simple multiplier circuit
asciilifeform: decimation: who listened to dijkstra. academics - good joke. programmers - ha.
decimation: except I was reading Dijkstra in "structured programming" and he wrote that it was hopeless to try to "prove" practical code. He did suggest that this is a reason for humility and simplicity.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: 'kindle dx' for ordinary stuff, 'nexus 10' for high-res scans (like that dijkstra)
kakobrekla: ocred http://smpake.com/tmp/A.Discipline.Of.Programming_Dijkstra.txt
assbot: A Discipline of Programming: Edsger W. Dijkstra: 9780132158718: Amazon.com: Books
pankkake: http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Programming-Edsger-W-Dijkstra/dp/013215871X
asciilifeform: see herr dijkstra re: bugs.
asciilifeform: 'Dijkstra said angrily. (He’d been visibly shaking his head through out the talk even before this outburst.) “How many bugs are we going to tolerate?” he demanded. “Seven,” Teitelman shot back.' ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: dijkstra once read a lecture, and exclaimed 'how many bugs shall we tolerate?!' one wag stands up - '3!' ☟︎
asciilifeform: see also herr dijkstra's aphorism re: bugs