jurov: Where is v.py available to download?
jurov: even v.pl, for that matter... :)
jurov: and search.b-a won't find anything immediately useful
jurov: i do have it, just trying on another computer, and said to myself - let's try this from perspective of newcomer
jurov: looks like i got stymied right at very first step
☟︎ ben_vulpes: "read everything on the mailing list and call me in the morning"
jurov: okay, adding that to wiki
kakobrekla: and once mailing list is thousands of pages, still the way to go?
mod6: <+jurov> even v.pl, for that matter... :) << this is available in the ML & on the foundation homepage.
mod6: so in reality, no you don't need V or anything. i think if you just follow dpb's wiki steps it's all good.
mod6: but it really does need to be updated for v99996 today.
mod6: trinque can you pu'
http://dpaste.com/2VBF9V2.txt' in there (maybe run a dos2unix on it first) with a title like the other one ala 'build-bitcoind-V99996K.sh' or whatever?
mod6: danielpbarron: do you wanna update the wiki as soon as there is a get-able deedbot entry for this?
mod6: i guess i could do the deedbot part, not sure how to work it th
mod6: oh looks like you can just pass it a dpaste
☟︎ jurov: i have added short info to that page
jurov: yes it's on foundation homepage, i was blind
mod6: oh its not even in here.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 281900 @ 0.00056106 = 158.1628 BTC [-] {8}
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> cd laughs at magnetic field, at electrostatic discharge, has nothing that self-oxidates if in inert atmosphere. << Been doing cleaning and have taken to playing pressed cd's that by many rights out not be playing. (not a single cd-r from mess has played yet, including a few 5+ year old "archival" turds)
☟︎ danielpbarron: what needs to be changed? just the url to the .sh ? or are some of the steps different now?
BingoBoingo: Has anyone yet tried making an alibaba shopping list for necessary equipment to start a cd replication line?
☟︎ ben_vulpes: deedbot.org script mentioned above i believe uses asciilifeform's old key
mod6: <+danielpbarron> what needs to be changed? just the url to the .sh ? or are some of the steps different now? << yeah, i think the steps are going to be fine, other than the URL to the new script (when we finally get it deedbotted) and the name of the script.
mod6: ofc. we'll wanna put our newb hats on and try the steps anyway tho
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:36:47; mod6: ok, well i did just rip out all the sync/init/mirrors parts of V
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:43:48; mod6: i'd like to get this into "battle-ready" shape once and for all.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90346 @ 0.00055924 = 50.5251 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes: so what is the thing to be done with korsgaard's key?
mircea_popescu: ideally, you go read the whole fucking thing, rebase and sign as your own.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: then i can exclude his key and pretend he never lived.
ben_vulpes: mod6: do you expect me to have korsgaard's key in my personal keyring when running build-bitcoind-V99996K.sh?
mircea_popescu: and this is generally the way it goes. anyone wants to "take wget out" - fine. the path to this is you write your own wget, sign it and use that.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 00:27:16; jurov: looks like i got stymied right at very first step
mod6: i actually think if you follow the steps in the wiki, jurov is incorrect, you don't need to know anything about V. or download it seperately, or anything. the script does it all for you.
mod6: same as the makefiles will do.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell trinque hey buddy looks like your makefiles depend on keys in the personal keyring
mircea_popescu: mod6 well on the theory he didn't want to run the script.
mod6: yeah, cause if you don't run the script, then you need to set up everything, including the rotor, buildroot & copying around the config, and tons of other stuff.
mircea_popescu: yeah. and, of course, the code is the standard, so just read the script as a guide :D
mircea_popescu: anyway, in fairness : we had a little bit of excited & explosive growth here past coupla months, will take a little to digest it into proper form.
shinohai: That script is like cliff notes, I couldn't live without yet.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 00:44:05; mod6: oh looks like you can just pass it a dpaste
mod6: <+mircea_popescu>
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390077 << this is a bad idea inasmuch as it leaves my build process stranded, so i'll be stuck forever using current v and i suppose forever pressing 9996 then ? << yeah, i read your comments earlier on this. part of "battle-ready" to me means not only that it has lordship blessing, but it doesn't break any security paradigms that we m
☝︎ assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:36:47; mod6: ok, well i did just rip out all the sync/init/mirrors parts of V
mod6: ight hold in our minds.
mircea_popescu: well i am unaware of this "cd based security paradigm" as anything other than a chewing-gum and ductape concoction of no practical consequence.
mircea_popescu: nodes are internet machines, they stay on the internet and are expected to work safely and securely online. end of story.
mircea_popescu: museum nodes can be created as a derivative work at any time, they'll be as funky as pornography is. not real sex.
mod6: i might regret the notion of using wget someday, but I figured it possibly better than writing some native code in perl that would most likely utilize some module, or even importation of the module directly.
mod6: the only real way around this is for me to write all of that stuff by hand.
mircea_popescu: it's a sore spot, but it's treated properly imo : quite clearly in the open.
mod6: which, might eventually happen.
mircea_popescu: and the avenue to fix it is also well known. wget is open source. rebase.
mircea_popescu: for that matter you know, bdb is also a piece of shit. and openshitmypants and so on.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: do you expect me to have korsgaard's key in my personal keyring when running build-bitcoind-V99996K.sh? << yup, this is how it works if we want to verify the buildroot package cryptographically.
mod6: now, we could have automated this into a temp keyring
mircea_popescu: i honestly dun see what the problem is here. what is the problem here ?
mod6: i guess that may not be horribru. ask users to gather up pub keys, place in a separate dir other than .wot, import them into temp keyring, use them, and then remove the temp keyring when finished.
mircea_popescu: logcially, if you're not willing to import a guy's key, why the fuck are you pulling his code. write your own or w/e.
mircea_popescu: not like if trb.buildroot pops up tomorrow i wouldn't at least consider it.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform likes to scream about how dumb the keyring is
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 01:03:51; BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> cd laughs at magnetic field, at electrostatic discharge, has nothing that self-oxidates if in inert atmosphere. << Been doing cleaning and have taken to playing pressed cd's that by many rights out not be playing. (not a single cd-r from mess has played yet, including a few 5+ year old "archival" turds)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yeah. he also screams about how dumb usg is, hasn't yet moved away.
mod6: i think his 'p' or whatever the name is, is going to do away with that -- least iirc.
ben_vulpes: i'm struggling to build a cohesive mental model for the right way to approach this gordian knot
mircea_popescu: even if it usually turns out to have been a stupid idea/whatever, still whining in here is the right way to approach teh knot.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell trinque i may be exceptionally retarded today, but is there a reason why shit/Manifest.sha256 doesn't contain a hash for buildroot?
mircea_popescu: mod6 what's the scriopt called ? the one that makes rotor.sh ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i'm using trinque's experimental makefiles.
mircea_popescu: it really should have a name, apparerntly i saved it variously as press.sh vconfig.sh etc
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: cd's aren't magic, but a cd press might serve a useful purpose for distributing samizdat that lasts.
mod6: ben_vulpes: the buildroot hash is in deps/Manifest.sha512
mircea_popescu: and generally - for bringing internet water into teh deserts.
gernika: mod6: fwiw successfully built and currently running 99996
mod6: congrats gernika. thanks for testing & reporting
mod6: i need to update my wot one of these days.
gernika: np. one of these days I'm gonna find a bug or somethin :)
mod6: keep lookin, it all helps us.
mircea_popescu: in an alt world, bitcoin blocks come once a day, are 737.280 MB in size, go around on CDs
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 01:11:40; ben_vulpes: hey, stan's bouncer died!
mircea_popescu: ascii_rear it's only scheduled if yo usay before we do :D
mod6: im digging through the shiva code :]
assbot: You rated user gernika on 04-Jul-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: New blood..
ascii_rear: mod6: see anything that doesn't make sense ?
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.gernika.1:0460d190229514ca15052ed9ecf853adc7340cd5620aca6d64495d00876c7a7a
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for gernika from 1 to 1 with note: Managed to press 99996
mircea_popescu: incidentally, speaking of config setups : 1. pick a list of TRB nodes ; 2. add to ifconfig, deny all others ; 3. plug eth cable, congrats, you now have a secure box. go ahead install all the toolbar spyware you care to, won't matter.
ascii_rear: mircea_popescu: and your online build of buildroot et al?
mod6: <+ascii_rear> mod6: see anything that doesn't make sense ? << not yet. was just poking through how you load this thing up (in src/shiva.h|.cpp) - also looking at how to define more operations
ascii_rear: mod6: the hacking.txt that comes with classical tinyscheme is helpful
mod6: i did dig through all of the src/shiva code too - but since im not super cluded on scheme yet, dont quite know everything thats going on there.
ascii_rear: there is also an 'example.c' floating around on the net that has moar examples
mod6: saw a lot of func pointers that seem to expose an interface into the thing tho
mod6: unless im wrong about what that was doing.
mod6: i guess that was all in scheme.h
mod6: i gotta digest all of this a bit. heheh.
mod6: thanks for the pointers.
ascii_rear: mod6: it took me ages to fully grasp how tinyscheme works. actually had to finish sicp for the basic mechanics of schematron to fully fall into place in my mind.
mod6: the thing thats a bit backwards is trying to learn how scheme works through the lens of C/C++
ascii_rear: the important message here is something else, the shiva console is not to be considered publicly exposable in any sense
mod6: for sure, just like you wouldn't want to expose your rpc port to 0.0.0.0
ascii_rear: it is intended to be a more dangerous version of existing rpc, eventually you will be able to flip arbitrary bits in the data structures with it
mod6: ah. right, with the debugging parts enabled. yeah, danger lurks.
ascii_rear: tinyscheme is not in any sense hygienic.
ascii_rear: (exploitable overflow was actually found in it, in 2012)
ascii_rear: but, 1) there is a skull on the patch for a reason 2) there is not actually an alternative to tinyscheme.
mod6: oh, ok. was that ever repaired? or isn't updated? i thought I saw the guys comment on his website that said "until i'm dead" or something?
ascii_rear: but reading the code has filled me with disgust
mod6: was tinyscheme a beter alt than minischeme simply because of its size and ability to fit in head?
ascii_rear: that has programmable i/o ports and arrays
ascii_rear: we can't actually use a scheme that lacks these.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116400 @ 0.00055816 = 64.9698 BTC [-] {4}
ascii_rear: otherwise i would have used classical minischeme.
mod6: im gonna keep reading scim see what i can figure out.
ascii_rear: tinyscheme is the smallest (loc and complexity-wise) schematron that has these necessaries.
mod6: i think i wanna try to work from tinyscheme/shiva -> C++ interface with bitcoind -- seems a more sane way to figure this thing out.
mod6: rahter than the reverse.
ascii_rear: there is much to be done there, incl. reimplementing the classical rpc hooks
mod6: anyway, yeah, i feel like if we bring this thing into the fold, i aught to know what the back end is doing.
ascii_rear: but eventually we ought to be able to do spiffy things like writing my memory usage grapher ~entirely in shiva~, etc
ascii_rear: adding custom friend-or-foe stuff, or whatnov
mod6: sure, there seems to be a bunch of power here in this tool - would be nice to harness that and make some useful stuff.
ascii_rear: the nice thing about scheme vs. some random bozo half-lisp is that it is an actual STANDARD
ascii_rear: so potentially we can write our own, eventually, to replace tiny.
ascii_rear: (there are hard tests for compliance, can run these)
mod6: there suprisingly isn't ~that~ much code.
ascii_rear: aha, as i said, it is the smallest known
mod6: you can do that just fine.
mod6: you don't ~need~ to run the init command at all
mod6: just create a 'patches' and '.seals' dir in the same dir as v.pl and you're golden
ascii_rear: what would be handy is if the thing could spit out a manifest of all the crap it expects to find
mod6: oh for like the makefiles and stuff? i think we were just gonna put the stuff in the shit dir iirc.
mod6: but then it pulls all kinds of stuff.
mod6: well, a dozen or so ya.
mod6: but anyway, if we wanna stuff all of that stuff into shit as well, then we need to hack on buildroot to not rsync it -- now we've forked our own.
mod6: or are you saying something different?
mod6: i went down this road probably like in december or november or something. just was its own ball of wax.
shinohai: ok mod6 test completed, did not have to set set the perl option before building
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 01:05:43; BingoBoingo: Has anyone yet tried making an alibaba shopping list for necessary equipment to start a cd replication line?
ascii_rear: i have 25 y.o. cds that read without any problems
ascii_rear: trick is that they gotta be pressed aluminum
mod6: <+shinohai> ok mod6 test completed, did not have to set set the perl option before building << ok good deal, i assume that the PERL_MM_OPT thing is an evironment deal.
mircea_popescu: ascii_rear> but eventually we ought to be able to do spiffy things like writing my memory usage grapher ~entirely in shiva~, etc << quite. once this is fully functional debugging in trb can not be matched, period. by anyone, anywhere, doing anything.
BingoBoingo: ascii_rear: It's like a hard drive assembly line. Rather far from chip fab obstacles.
ascii_rear: BingoBoingo: watch the film at least until where the sintering machine appears
☟︎ mircea_popescu: so in this sense mod6 it has my imprimatur that bothering to grok it isn't a waste of your finite time.
shinohai: yeah it seems when I was doing lappy setup I changed something.
ascii_rear: mircea_popescu: aha, that was why i did it originally
ascii_rear: it will rock especially hard when i get the emacsatron in (see slime thread)
shinohai: dff2d2d6267c4c4a4bfb5015ca2bd7e18953a5933e2eafca69403549b9c99229 bitcoind
mircea_popescu: ascii_rear> can we at least have the option of loading from local dir instead of www ? <<< now that is a very good idea.
ascii_rear: keying crud manually into the repl shell suxxx
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> so in this sense mod6 it has my imprimatur that bothering to grok it isn't a waste of your finite time. << yeah, agreed, Sir.
BingoBoingo: ascii_rear: I see nothing that preculdes guerilla cd operation from being done in reasonably clean warehouse for 1 or 2 new chevy suburbans worth of captial outlay.
thestringpuller: at height=322956 core 2 duo takes about 45 seconds to 1 minute per block verification...
ascii_rear: next thing i will do, supposing that nobody else takes it up, is to make the mempool shiva-walkable
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller aha. this was discussed time and again in the very logs.
mircea_popescu: i know it's exciting and all. but, pace in all things.
mod6: yeah, you've got some time yet before we can really dig into that in earnest anyway.
ascii_rear: mircea_popescu: most of what you see in shiva is old wurk
ascii_rear: realize that i have a vast collection of crud
mod6: we need to focus on the makefiles & the release. meanwhile im sure theres a zillion other things.
ascii_rear: most of it quite unfit for publication
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 01:25:55; mircea_popescu: ideally, you go read the whole fucking thing, rebase and sign as your own.
ascii_rear: buildroot is one of those things that suck donkey corpse ballz but there is NO alternative to.
ascii_rear: (please wake me up if one is discovered!!1)
ascii_rear: mask rom is prolly a close second, but it is vulnerable to electrostatic
ascii_rear: ONE cd would handily hold the source to every public software package worth taking to mars with you.
BingoBoingo: hole punched teflon ticker tape is probably actual gold standard, but...
BingoBoingo: With other tape yes, but the kind of jam that would deform teflon?
ascii_rear: if BingoBoingo is thinking of the teflon tape used in plumbing, i can hardly imagine a worse punched ribbon
ascii_rear: the thing stretches and warps when you so much as fart on it.
BingoBoingo: ascii_rear: I'm thinking more the sheets used for the grilltops at McDonalds.
BingoBoingo: Or maybe tyvek would be a better candidate
trinque-out: deedbot will be back later this evening. The DC neglected to turn the thing back on after SSD installation and I had to depart the keyboard. Meanwhile just send me anything that needs to go through and it'll happen tonight.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95586 @ 0.00055797 = 53.3341 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 106900 @ 0.00055754 = 59.601 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin Network Hits 1 Exahash :: 105.65 B (96%) on Yes, 3.93 B (4%) on No | closed 4 days 9 hours ago ... (
http://bit.ly/1QzTYzD )
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin Network Hits 1 Exahash :: 105.65 B (96%) on Yes, 3.93 B (4%) on No | closed 4 days 9 hours ago ... (
http://bit.ly/1QzU1f4 )
pete_dushenski: so unless bitbet is now drafting and seeding their own proposals...
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Smaller house bet has alway gone to the person proposing the bet on BitBet
pete_dushenski: in computing terms, ^ would be like putting 256gb ecc ram, 16-core amd fx and gaming vid card in an ipad.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: It's not new. It's something that has always been brough up as part of BitBet's marketing for people to submit interesting proposals
pete_dushenski: so if 0.01 - 0.04 btc house bet wins, it goes to proposer ?
pete_dushenski: "Because of this EPA wall, the market is currently dominated by low-level ethanol blends, such as “E10” (10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline). That has prevented mid-level ethanol fuels, such as E25 or E30, from widely reaching American consumers. If allowed full market access, mid-level ethanol products like E25 or E30 could prove quite popular with American consumers, who are increasingly concerned
pete_dushenski: ^from teddy cruz, who just lost alf's vote by the looks of it
pete_dushenski: how and by what fluke of fisics cruz thinks that eXX burns ~more~ efficiently than 100% gas is anyone's guess
pete_dushenski: additionally, with a gallon of gas a ~$1 stateside, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT FUEL ECONOMY
pete_dushenski: do corn producers what to put their products everywhere and anywhere, from building materials to groceries ? ofc. but that has nothing to do with consumers.
pete_dushenski: why teddy can't just frame his position as "e30 is even LESS efficient which is good for both corn and oil producers" is anyone's guess. trump owns honesty, apparently.
mircea_popescu: assbot> California Environmentalists Fight To Save Endangered Nuclear Plant <<< had to dbl take. then lulz floweth
mircea_popescu: "The DC neglected to turn the thing back on after SSD installation" <<< o.O
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Note the categories it was filed under
pete_dushenski: "The three vehicles averaged 1.5% lower mileage with E10, 2.2% lower mileage with E20, 5.1% lower mileage with E30" << from some study by the american coalition for ethanol.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski> so unless bitbet is now drafting and seeding their own proposals... << this isn't even new.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: It's just residual pregnancy fog affecting your brain. It'll clear in 17 years
mircea_popescu: anyway. in no sense is ethanol LESS fuel intensive than gasoline. the alternatives are oil->refinery->gasoline for gasoline, or oil->refinery->chem feed->chem plant->fertilizer->farm->corn->ethanol plant->ethanol.
mircea_popescu: you get about 1 to 5% less mileage per barrel in the 2nd approach, as should be obvious. you neverthelss get 5x the "jobs" and 20 to 50x the imaginary industrial assets.
mod6: gas here $1.55 today
mod6: in other news, i can't seem to get -setvernum to work either? or how can I tell that it worked?
phf: huh, so everything matches except for headers.h
phf: mod6: hey you mind dpasting your headers.h?
mod6: it's not just headers.h, theres a number of others.
phf: there is? :o i did shasum -a 512 -c foo.txt|grep -v OK where foo.txt is your dpaste and only headers is not giving me ok.
mod6: oooh. hmm. maybe im looking at this wrong.
mod6: ok yah, its just headers.h
mod6: # grep "b86114b5b74d2b9e737798f78804439c5cdd0ae42440615c57fc85cb0ac7d8b8a454d2ef44048db6af0ca00a938178173eece431b273462dbc299c1501b86600" ../../../../patches/*
mod6: ../../../../patches/bitcoin-asciilifeform.4-goodbye-win32.vpatch:+++ b/bitcoin/src/headers.h b86114b5b74d2b9e737798f78804439c5cdd0ae42440615c57fc85cb0ac7d8b8a454d2ef44048db6af0ca00a938178173eece431b273462dbc299c1501b86600
mod6: i think that is correct
phf: i somehow have an extra newline there :o
mod6: so if ascii's V 'origin' command would take a hash as a parameter then show you the vpatch where it was touched, that would be helpful.
mod6: i should look into this
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: it's sorta incredible that the fiatists who need infinite growth all want to cut their own throats with reduced consumption while tmsr~, who doesn't want anything to do with infinite growth, is buying and consuming like it's going out of style
mod6: or even give a source file name, then output all the vpatches that touch it & their before & after hashes, or something.
phf: mod6: sorry, this is entirely a non issue, i'm debugging a pure lisp presser, i.e. parsing vpatch files and then doing in memory press. everything presses, but that one file has an extra newline
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: saw that nyooz elsewhere yesterday, also found it odd to classify 'firewall' as 'weapon' but hey, not like words mean things in usistan
mod6: phf: ahh, very cool though. as im sitting here reading sicp im thinking that maybe how i can learn scheme is by writing V in it -- at some point.
mod6: need to read more first heheh.
phf: asciilifeform: you know just the right kind of questions to ask :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100750 @ 0.00056042 = 56.4623 BTC [+] {4}
phf: i'm curious if there's enough machinery in ironclad to give me support to do a pgp verify rewrite
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Yeah, lots of interesting oddities came out to end the month.
phf: i have that patched gpgme version though, can always punt into the ugly land. i'm going to tackle diff first though, seems like a significant hole in my algo knowledge
pete_dushenski: mod6: in other news, i can't seem to get -setvernum to work either? or how can I tell that it worked? << hm. has anyone actually used 'version-strings' in praxis ? seems like several failed attempts now.
mod6: yeah, i'm curious here.
mircea_popescu: assbot> Networking Equipment Designated Weapon System | << speaking of which, i fully expect the first usg-designed bitcoin miners to be designated exactly that.
BingoBoingo: You mean the Buttfurry double stack shipping container thing?
mircea_popescu: <pete_dushenski> mircea_popescu: it's sorta incredible that the fiatists who need infinite growth all want to cut their own throats with reduced consumption while tmsr~, who doesn't want anything to do with infinite growth, is buying and consuming like it's going out of style << actually, best estimate i can get puts TMSR GDP growth for 2015 somewhere around 450-500%. that's not 4.5-5%. it's not 45-50% either.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and by the looks of january, Q1 2016 might actually beat that.
mircea_popescu: so... glhf, but never in the history of sovereigns has there been such a wonder etc.
mircea_popescu: apply common accounting standards to the work done, see what it adds up to.
mircea_popescu: if you produce a mythical man-month's code for trb, that adds the accounting value of a man-month to the tmsr gdp whether you mean for it to or not.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah but he wouldn't be familiar with that.
mircea_popescu: admitting you're worth what sv pays for top talent, comes to about 60k or so.
mircea_popescu: iirc the per-capital costs are in the 700-750k bracket pa.
mircea_popescu: AND, to add to the list of wonders, all that growth is financed purely through unbacked deficit spending!
mircea_popescu: tmsr really is what usg aspires to be, funnily enough.
mircea_popescu: i think that's undefined, in the general. in the narrow particular, iirc blackwater charges something like 1.2-1.5. depends on various factors, but thereabouts.
mircea_popescu: meh, how about fixing things rather than putting in and taking out.
mircea_popescu: i dunno exactly why it was decided to have it in, but now it's in, so...
mod6: <+pete_dushenski> ver 99999 is fine by me << yeah, this is fine. but the fact that it doesn't do what it should do isn't. i'll pull the patch tomorrow.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: isn't tmsr also what most every organisation everywhere since ever aspired to be ?
mod6: and i'll also have to "re-grind" my high/low S patch
mod6: (since its antecedent is PVS)
mircea_popescu: mod6 incidentally found the correct way to undo things.
mircea_popescu: everyone has to rebase and so will hate you if you make them do it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109800 @ 0.00055693 = 61.1509 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and polarbeard would much prefer large patches. you don't get what you prefer.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14700 @ 0.00056044 = 8.2385 BTC [+]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> i'd much prefer antimatter << this imho sets kindof an nasty precedent: just adding anitmatter patches, bloat for the tree. a hundred years from now there might be more anti-matter than matter patches!
mod6: <+asciilifeform> we did it for the db locks fix << this is fair. would have to had to regrind everything after last march :/
mod6: and... its maybe slightly different since the first patch was inclued in the first release.
mod6: we cant exactly rewrite history there.
mod6: since this one is new, and its not in a release, its not horrible. i'd prefer just to fix whatever might be wrong in there and resubmit & regrind high/low
mod6: asciilifeform: totally up to you in that respect.
mod6: maybe i'll try to debug it a bit, see if i can get it to work.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42670 @ 0.0005654 = 24.1256 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Dual opteron, apparently only text mode works but who needs graphics when you have two opterons?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: i'd definitely add him to the top of the list of providers for colocation.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Dual opteron could be useful in workstation.
mircea_popescu: i have no idea why anyone'd keep locally a box they don't actually use to play games on, but hey.
BingoBoingo: "The fun doesn't stop at just watching the Puppy Bowl, though. Like in all sports now, fantasy Puppy Bowl is huge, and you can go to Animal Planet's website to draft your fantasy Puppy Bowl squad. You pick three dogs to go up against your friends. There's a scorecard and everything. I went on and drafted my team, and I think I have a strong chance to come out on top in Puppy Bowl fantasy. I mean, just look at this lineup. Bijoux,
BingoBoingo: Wrinkles and Kevin? Talk about a murderer's row."
pete_dushenski: as played exclusively by the hippies that alf trips over at 'health food store'
pete_dushenski: or is this some ploy to get fillies into competitive fantasy sports ?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> wait shouldn't shiva 2 be restated instead ? << this is probably a better. and its not even in the mirror at this point anyway.
mod6: i apprecaite your efforts here.
mod6: no rush anyway, im gonna pick this stuff back up tomorrow.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 225574 @ 0.00055605 = 125.4304 BTC [-] {6}
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: didn't some usgmegacorp try something similar recently only to have it backfire spectacularly ?
BingoBoingo: But no, the puppybowl has a surprisingly long history.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:12:41; mircea_popescu: that's a pretty sweet board.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:11; BingoBoingo: Dual opteron, apparently only text mode works but who needs graphics when you have two opterons?
BingoBoingo: People who want to put it into a mobile enclosure do
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:15:11; mircea_popescu: if it computes it belongs in a dc.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: how do you have something ~that~ powerful running... silently ? and without iridium toilet ?
pete_dushenski: aha. you ~wished~ it were silent. i misunderstood. i thought you had it nailed already.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76250 @ 0.00055566 = 42.3691 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:17; mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92619 @ 0.00055501 = 51.4045 BTC [-] {6}
mircea_popescu: i dun see anyone getting negrated through communicating sanely.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: ipads that only boot iosx were playing the same game before that. mac desktops before that too.
pete_dushenski: "Then in Davos I joined people like Kevin Spacey, and Jimmy Wales (the founder of Wikipedia) on a panel talking about cyber-security. The general sense in the room is that a distributed, encrypted database like the blockchain could be key to creating a more secure computing environment and a more secure world." << now i get why reporters call ~me~ a "security expert", because motherfucking 60yo actors are sittin
pete_dushenski: author is "Don Tapscott a best-selling author most recently The Digital Economy, Adjunct Professor at the Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto and the chancellor of Trent University."
mats: this torontostar shit is replete with english mistakes
mats: nobody takes journalism seriously
mats: >The enthusiasm was in stark contrast to my next meeting meeting—with 60 CEO’s of big banks banks.
mats: what the actual fuck fuck
pete_dushenski: no one could've predicted that reading trash rags gets one riled up
gribble: nubbins` was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 48 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <nubbins`> <+mircea_popescu> in other news, chick on okcupid : "porque no me escribis en castellano << they say castellano in peru too, but if i'm not mistaken this is not universal in south america?
BingoBoingo: Obama is finally going attend an Illinois senate session
mircea_popescu: dude who the fuck are kevin spacey and jimbo wales already.
mircea_popescu: the consensus among kim kardashian, zsa zsa gabor, hussein bahamas and that guy from cheers is that a kilogram of feathers really should be lighter than a kilogram of derp entrails.
mircea_popescu: in other news of similar weight and importance, leyla black was kinda hot a decade ago.
mircea_popescu: not really her retarded totemcash/loadedcash/twistys idiotic stuff. but she did some ok outdoor work back in the day.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91900 @ 0.00056673 = 52.0825 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: lol, yeah these thinks are kinda transient
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 05:13:17; mircea_popescu: incidentally, this would be a pretty interesting sideline/possible job for someone dedicated. sell pre-made, fully liberated board+chip kits. for to go intos ervers etc.
punkman: although I guess these Asus boards are still being made at the factory
ben_vulpes: yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . \n "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings?
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:26:28; jurov: <punkman> asciilifeform: there are more "server ARM" things coming out... << you really want like, 64 shitty cores on the workstation instead of 4x x86?
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 19:45:55; danielpbarron: get nubbins` or someone to make some nice artwork on it and i'll buy
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 01:25:55; mircea_popescu: ideally, you go read the whole fucking thing, rebase and sign as your own.
ben_vulpes: has anyone else noticed the following when using build-bitcoind-9999*K.sh?
ben_vulpes: "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"?
☟︎ ben_vulpes: punkman: by my read 'rebase' as mircea_popescu uses it means 'dump into the v tree'
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 02-01-2016 05:43:08; phf: gpg: key 59C36319: public key "Peter Korsgaard <jacmet@uclibc.org>" imported
☟︎ ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: nah, because i get "good signature from korsgaard"
ben_vulpes: but this fucking term just lost my motherfucking scrollback, because people reinventing wheels for os x have no historical context
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:38:04; mod6: is it worthwhile to rip out my graphing stuff out of V?
ben_vulpes goes digging through the gui for "never ever fucking toss my scrollback option"
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:40:13; mod6: so -- i might need several weeks at min to test out v99995 of V
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 378.72, vol: 2286.81911093 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 382.491, vol: 2894.33858 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 378.35, vol: 7789.42880116 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 380.0, vol: 0.41873277 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 384.104, vol: 39441.74380000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 380.99979, vol: 189.24228801 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 382.3343, vol: 18.40843268 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
ben_vulpes: punkman: "he's a good man, and thorough"
punkman: on second read I hope it just means mod6 would be busy doing other things
ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, while we're ripping the rug out from under mod6, is there a good reason to continue with the inconsistent directory structure of `./.seals' and `./patches'?
punkman: ben_vulpes: how is it inconsistent?
ben_vulpes: well one is prefixed with the stupid unix hidden-file/dir period convention
punkman: I just have ./sigs ./patches in vit
ben_vulpes: punkman: vit's a v.py descendant, correct?
punkman: I did start with v.py, but mangled most things
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 20:20:44; ascii_butugychag: the reason why i once suggested breaking up all patches into atomic patchons is that right now we have a stricter than necessary dependency flow
punkman: why I kept saying that I don't like release patches that touch *everything*
☟︎ ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mod6 i got v.pl into a weird place where it didn't clean up its gnupg tempdir. perhaps consider using an "exit_gracefully" function where you're currently simply "die"-ing.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mod6 alternatively, consider using mktemp -d
ben_vulpes: i am struck by a question i find interesting
ben_vulpes: is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?
☟︎ ben_vulpes: this is probably a purposes and causes thing, huh. avoid working towards the purpose of usable software for other people, and proceed from the cause of "hell is other people's code"...
☟︎ ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mod6 stick a random file with .html suffix in the patches dir to reproduce the stale gnupg dir big
ben_vulpes: probably any non-vpatch file'd do the trick.
punkman: ben_vulpes: what happened to your buildatron?
ben_vulpes: i shut the jenkins down because full syncs of each patch was prohibitively resource and time intensive and parallelized poorly
ben_vulpes: v.lisp has just been languishing on the island of poorly written and embarassing software
ben_vulpes: and buildroot handily obsoleted ak47.sh
punkman: what's a full sync in jenkins?
ben_vulpes: another entry in the long list of things i've written that never made it into the truck
ben_vulpes: a full sync of each bitcoind produced by each patch sent to the ml
punkman: just the compiling part and maybe the existing unit tests would be good enough
punkman: I'd help rig it up if the foundation so wishes
☟︎ ben_vulpes: funnily enough i just nuked its builddir
ben_vulpes: this was god i don't know how many months ago
ben_vulpes: dunno man i don't actually think it's of much value. having actual humans in the actual wot build things is much more important.
ben_vulpes: scripting the whole process in the context of "continuous integration servers" is nifty, but finding the noob caltrops is also important.
ben_vulpes: punkman: you could always contribute to b,tmsr's deficit by standing the jenkins instance up yourself.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell jurov and eulorans et al you might want to look into this tinyscheme thing
diana_coman: thanks ben_vulpes , I'll have a look; it's been ages since I last wrote anything in Scheme as such, but if there's a chance of moving the client away from cpp it's certainly worth having a look at
☟︎ ben_vulpes: diana_coman: i doubt you'll move the client away from cpp, but tinyscheme is a potential route to embedding scheme /in/ the existing client.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform plans to use it to inspect memory of running bitcoinds in real time
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 09:33:50; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform plans to use it to inspect memory of running bitcoinds in real time
diana_coman: well, there is no hard requirement as such to have the client written in cpp; but it's true that it's quite a huge effort to make an alternative, sane client (for one thing, I'd love a text-only client for instance)
☟︎ ben_vulpes: diana_coman: no hard requirement, sure, i just imagine that replacing the crystalspace client's going to be no small pile of reverse engineering. i say this knowing nothing about the cs server/client software relationship.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 115900 @ 0.00055539 = 64.3697 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117200 @ 0.00055835 = 65.4386 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107750 @ 0.00056069 = 60.4143 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: ben_vulpes: eulora code is several levels more crooked than satoshi's, i tried to ffi python and left that for later in disgust.
☟︎ jurov: that aside, there are completely different set of requirements, like, easy debugging. if lisp, then rather something with slime and good library bundled.
☟︎ BingoBoingo:
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/330710-politics-america-hate-intolerance/ >> "In these times, the ‘little guy’ cannot afford to pay rent on the trailer home, not to mention a bottle of brew. The ‘little guy’ now possesses a large amount of anger about the political system that doesn't work for him, which shouldn’t be surprising since he repeatedly voted against his own interests during the republican tenure. Or, on the other
BingoBoingo: hand, he voted for change advanced by the Obama team’s marketing "hopium" which resulted in him running in circles backwards in socio-economic terms."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130300 @ 0.00055309 = 72.0676 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 09:36:51; diana_coman: well, there is no hard requirement as such to have the client written in cpp; but it's true that it's quite a huge effort to make an alternative, sane client (for one thing, I'd love a text-only client for instance)
jurov: eulora altclient is not exactly about "reverse engineering", but that the network protocol layer uses C++ primitives with liberally mixed preprocessor and templates
jurov: so far no idea how to convert that into anything saner, or ffi-interface that stuff
gribble: Current Blocks: 395946 | Current Difficulty: 1.2003334065123697E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 397151 | Next Difficulty In: 1205 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 186400 @ 0.00055217 = 102.9245 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70134 @ 0.00055512 = 38.9328 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ?
mircea_popescu: ideally the result of a click should be a page including at least a) an enumerations of all the keys required to get there ; b) a script that will press to that particular height.
mircea_popescu: and thinking about it on the way from bed to machine, because this idea woke me up : it seems deedbot and the ml management really should be merged. any conceivable reason patches can't be submitted via deedbot's mechanism ? not necessarily to remove the email feeding, but as an add-on ?
☟︎ punkman: making deeds with all the emails?
mircea_popescu: just, if you want to add a patch, should be able to dump it as dpaste also.
☟︎ punkman: clearsigned patches get mangles line endings and things
mircea_popescu: or to quote a purple prose producer of recent fame in my household, "Her silky smooth butt-crack was flawless, the only interruption along the length of it, was her pink, rosy butt-hole. Underneath her crack, were her fluffy, velvety beef curtains, just looking so, so scrumptious."
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 06:49:42; ben_vulpes: what is "the leyla black"?
mircea_popescu: so that what, the idiot fbheads can click the correct emotional response icon to help the evil ai segment them ?
mircea_popescu: i knew gmaxwell wasn't intelligent enough to come up with that stupid shit on his own.
mircea_popescu: "I was looking at a Java applet which demonstrates the use of evaporative cooling to form a Bose-Einstein condensate, when it occurred to me that another force entirely might operate to increase fanaticism. "
mircea_popescu: heavens to herpinstocks, the idea is older than the fucking persian empire.
mircea_popescu: but the very grand intellectualistic value of someone who was watching einsten play out of his bose speakers in his spare time is well noted, of course.
mircea_popescu: how fortunate are we to have such bright minds around us. i gotta get myself one of them bose.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it occured to me while i was eating a niels bohr raisin cake (with little electron raisins floating in the batter) that this is how fucking spammers work, too. as discussed here a nujmber of times already.
mircea_popescu: pretentious fuckwad / out of his weight ignoramus for the fucking win over here.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't "bring science". it empowers ambitious knownothing.
mircea_popescu: and it occurred to me while conducting fart ciclotron reactions in my spare time that there's nothing more dangerous than an idiot with a little knowledge
mircea_popescu: worst fucking idea in the history of ideas, if they just let jimbo fuck children until he fell over the world'd have been better off.
mircea_popescu: he's 2nd generation scum, aims to systemd the original scum.
mircea_popescu: this is in fact how it works : we, aim to V the original lispworld. scum - aims to systemd wikipedia.
mircea_popescu: java fucking appled NEVER DEMONSTRATED ANYTHING OMFG FUCK YOUR DUMB MOTHER WITH SOMEONE ELSE'S BROOMSTICK
mircea_popescu: i mean that quite profoundly - thiel has seen the narrow horizon of the pen and contented himself that "this is everywhere".
mircea_popescu: this is what having no self respect fundamentally means.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn't know they expel ru kids for that
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:13:19; ben_vulpes: punkman: by my read 'rebase' as mircea_popescu uses it means 'dump into the v tree'
mircea_popescu: and for the record : ACTUAL hasidic jews, as found strictly beyond the pale, were some of the more pleasant folk you coulde ever meet, and greatly informs my tolerance of jews, as well as the tolerance of everyone who's not born past the stupid women line in western europe.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the american hasids are a sort of jehova's witnesses in a slightly altered color scheme
mircea_popescu: ((the stupid women line in western europe is sometimes called the Hajnal line)
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely nothing human about the sandvaginated saltmarshes.
mircea_popescu: i follow the palaiologos tradition. whereby the orcs are a slightly more complex thing.
mircea_popescu: by and large, "people who do not feel comfortable living inside the wall".
mircea_popescu: or, "people whose main impulse when confronted with an excuisite jeweled item is to rip out the jewels"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98235 @ 0.00055449 = 54.4703 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 14:27:50; mircea_popescu: and thinking about it on the way from bed to machine, because this idea woke me up : it seems deedbot and the ml management really should be merged. any conceivable reason patches can't be submitted via deedbot's mechanism ? not necessarily to remove the email feeding, but as an add-on ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha quite possibly. you keep trying to bite corcoduse.
mircea_popescu: nah, they're the fruits of a plum-like wild plum tree, grows everywhere the hasids go
mircea_popescu: pretty sure it was in odessa too. kids tend to eat them - sour stuff, makes them sick.
mircea_popescu: and re saltmarshes, the cannonical line being of course "Die Schweden die haben verflucht schlechtes Geld, wer weiß ob der Oestreicher besseres hält."
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:12:20; ben_vulpes: "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45500 @ 0.00055671 = 25.3303 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:14:35; *: ben_vulpes goes digging through the gui for "never ever fucking toss my scrollback option"
mircea_popescu: the item figures prominently in my own mental list of nonsense ; that list is an essential part of why alf's raging against computing makes sense to me.
mircea_popescu: "seriously, you can't repeat what you said to me ? slaves get caned for this!" "but but but mp, it is a computer, it can't save an infinity of stuff" "WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU MAKING A MACHINE SAY INFINITY OF STUFF TO ME" "well it's not really infinite, just..." "bring the cane"
mircea_popescu: which understanding is why i'm so lisp friendly, actually.
mircea_popescu: the derps making osen treat the scrollback as a wholly separate, contextual-less buffer. it's not "what we just said to this guy"
mircea_popescu: and similarly no program replay and for the same reason etc.
mircea_popescu: a large stack of various items all designed to talk into the void. how is this a computer ?
mircea_popescu: computing gets to grow a fucking indoor voice and progress out of orcdom.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:27:47; punkman: why I kept saying that I don't like release patches that touch *everything*
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:35:23; ben_vulpes: is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the difference lies in the meaning of "touch"
mircea_popescu: the thing with being a teacher is that it trains you to neglect so much lols.
mircea_popescu: you can't sit there all day laughing your ass off at the endless parade of idjits
mircea_popescu: you'd form a bose-lolstein condensated milk curd or something.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 14:46:32; asciilifeform: 'who has been in the army, does not laugh in the circus' (tm) (r) (su)
mircea_popescu: he who has been a teacher will not be amused at the zoo.
mircea_popescu: the stuff women spawn into this world is simply out of this world in its broken, surprisingly counterfunctional variety
mircea_popescu: "crooked timber" puts it too lightly by about two biological regnums.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:36:07; ben_vulpes: this is probably a purposes and causes thing, huh. avoid working towards the purpose of usable software for other people, and proceed from the cause of "hell is other people's code"...
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 08:05:44; punkman: I'd help rig it up if the foundation so wishes
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 09:26:17; diana_coman: thanks ben_vulpes , I'll have a look; it's been ages since I last wrote anything in Scheme as such, but if there's a chance of moving the client away from cpp it's certainly worth having a look at
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 11:07:31; jurov: ben_vulpes: eulora code is several levels more crooked than satoshi's, i tried to ffi python and left that for later in disgust.
mircea_popescu: "The ?little guy? now possesses a large amount of anger about the political system that doesn't work for him, which shouldn?t be surprising since he repeatedly voted against his own interests during the republican tenure. " <<< aaaahahahaha.
mircea_popescu: check it out - socialists agree it's the victim's fault!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21782 @ 0.00055672 = 12.1265 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: i don't think many people actually understand how bitcoin works.
mircea_popescu: because the thing is so complicated it encourages people to approach it through narratives rather than observation
mircea_popescu: and the problem with narratives is the same problem train tracks have : 20 miles away from the track is much further than 200 miles DOWN the track
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 16:29:32; mircea_popescu: it's fucking ridiculous. the current cost of 14.7kb is something like
mircea_popescu: i know, that's why i put that sort of stuff in. help the thinking hats.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's miserable design while at it. seriously, X pays Y for his imposition upon Z ?
mircea_popescu: but this was also discussed variously and from multiple angles.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform technically, you don't get to factor back-ups, because the chain itself is its best backup.
mircea_popescu: research went into this in the deep, dank cellars of my dirigible. there's a lot of the original rock involved. it may even not be wrong design, horror of horrors.
mircea_popescu: anyway. this is a poorly understood point as of yet at all levels - the clergy and the populace.
mircea_popescu: understand something re that principle of yours : money is fundamentally a community function.
mircea_popescu: but the point does stand, that gold on mars is not gold but just a metal.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform original rock in construction is when you encounter stuff that's baseline and can't be dug into. in v-programming, when you've dug your way all the way to the genesis.
mircea_popescu: takes me straight to "The #bitcoin-assets aristocracy is not incompetent. Whether in anyone's estimation others not named are just as or even more competent is immaterial : arbitrariety is not the problem, incompetence is."
mircea_popescu: community doesn't mean "everyone". nor does it mean "people you'd expect". a guy's harem is not composed of all the women that exist, or all the women he ran into. nvertheless, it works just fine.
mircea_popescu: woman that wants to know why she's not in the harem needs only ask herself.
mircea_popescu: well i said the not a. woman who wants to know why she isn't in any particular one ~need only ask herself~.
mircea_popescu: "what did i do to be in ?" "how did it fail ?" "how did i fix it ?" "how did it fail still ?" "how did i fix that ?"
mircea_popescu: either she keeps going, in which case she's not in the harem yet, or else gives up, in which case there's the answer.
mircea_popescu: "oh but what of equality!" "the only thing equal to all its downstream is 0".
mircea_popescu: which is kinda why both nullities are so fascinated with theoretical socialism and why practical implementations of socialism amount to such resplendent nothing.
mod6: time to answer some questions
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95250 @ 0.00055295 = 52.6685 BTC [-] {6}
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . \n "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings << where do you see this? this is not a thing. that would fail to compile/pass-interpreter-smell-test.
☟︎ phf: mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ? << like
http://104.131.72.249/patches/? (is in no way bulletproof, so i expect it to be down by the time i come back from breakfast)
☟︎ mod6: <+ben_vulpes> "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"? << i've just run this again myselfand logged output here:
http://dpaste.com/0P2QXYG.txt I'm not sure how what you saw happened there. :/
trinque: mod6: ah yep, I saw that doing the makefiles
trinque: the signed file is actually a signed textfile of the hash of the thing
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> unrelatedly, while we're ripping the rug out from under mod6, is there a good reason to continue with the inconsistent directory structure of `./.seals' and `./patches'? << this was in alf's original POC. i think it can stay. especially because you *can* name the dirs whatever you wish.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 i got v.pl into a weird place where it didn't clean up its gnupg tempdir. perhaps consider using an "exit_gracefully" function where you're currently simply "die"-ing. << this basically /shouldn't/ happen. i'll follow your steps here and try to see what went wrong.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> ;;later tell mod6 stick a random file with .html suffix in the patches dir to reproduce the stale gnupg dir big << this is what I'll test with.
trinque: nice, I taught a girl with that one too, then graduated her to SICP
mod6: <+trinque> mod6: ah yep, I saw that doing the makefiles << umm.. thats bad. because that means it doens't happen to me, but apparently it happens "in the field" from time to time?
mod6: something in shiva breaks it up eh?
mod6: trinque: thanks for deedbotting
mod6: looks good. matches mine exactly.
mod6: danielpbarron: hey there Sir, wanna update the wiki & test the steps from a newb standpoint when you get a moment? Y^
☟︎ mod6: ben_vulpes: thanks for testing V. i appreciate that.
mod6: testing really helps at any time, but especially ~before~ we bundle up and release
mod6: so if you see activity in that direction, ask for a test bundle or test code, whatever. good to catch any things like this before I send itout.
mod6: <+mod6> <+ben_vulpes> "gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file `buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!"? << i've just run this again myselfand logged output here:
http://dpaste.com/0P2QXYG.txt I'm not sure how what you saw happened there. :/ << im wondering if this could be related to a GPG version thing or something? because the line of code that is executed here is this:
mod6: gpg --verify buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign
mod6: did you see my comments from yesterday about your re-bake?
mod6: this will have to be fixed for next time.
mod6: and next time, let's do this sort of testing before i ship
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38000 @ 0.0005514 = 20.9532 BTC [-] {2}
phf: asciilifeform: so that new version replaces old patch?
mod6: nothing, i did this.
phf: mircea_popescu: nodes are clickable
mod6: thats how i tested and built the stuff yesterday at phf's behest.
mod6: asciilifeform: what was interesting on these ones is that not only idn't they contain *.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig -- they were: *.vpatch.asc
mircea_popescu: because what he really wanted was ths svg (not the PDF!!!) of a book
mircea_popescu: which leads me to the following : it's not JUST patches that should be "thematically grouped".
mircea_popescu: the whole fucking program is supposed to be written as a tree not as a fucking scroll
mircea_popescu: which is what "functions" as originally hacked into fortran/basic were supposed to do
mircea_popescu: excepot from a braindamaged locus of "who could need more than one node level"
mircea_popescu: i had the silent intuition that there'd be a second gate in between the code and the "war of comments" outer gate discussed in thr logs last week. there is! this!
mircea_popescu: truth is defended in this order by a) structure and b) text&context.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 18:31:17; asciilifeform: BURNNN
mircea_popescu: wouldn't it be best to test before documenting a feature ? :D
mircea_popescu: phf can you also add the text on a futher link ? [code] ?
mircea_popescu: well as the great robbie williams one said, "at least now we know"
mod6: ok unpacked ur tarball. verified the sigs.
mircea_popescu: anyway, irc bot based submission is much better because bot can provide error response
mircea_popescu: trinque and ftr that error message should be "fuck you alf" by default.
mircea_popescu: every time it runs into something it doesn't know what to say about
mod6: this patch just comes after the original
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h ef93153b01fdf024a0ab2ce0f992ea9af50d3423baa147c395bba4cc90575bda0d832c0313428bbbc837c99d549c4ba787b94fad5b871870397a410ba59ea0e9
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 02ccc72e42939509fc180861db7ffec50563a84869f35671fcf720090f9782674edcc89c4174175691566fac7277f1ebe0f50253d1e4a995eb960f5b43cce2a3
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 0ccb0c29c0a3217d57f9bc72d87b497e64116a9f79e69277408750ee3dc95738ce52a70afece7a1054314100d84f93f6525ab514b8abd8ce78ab8ebd50e599a2
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 02ccc72e42939509fc180861db7ffec50563a84869f35671fcf720090f9782674edcc89c4174175691566fac7277f1ebe0f50253d1e4a995eb960f5b43cce2a3
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/main.cpp 0ccb0c29c0a3217d57f9bc72d87b497e64116a9f79e69277408750ee3dc95738ce52a70afece7a1054314100d84f93f6525ab514b8abd8ce78ab8ebd50e599a2
mod6: ignore those last two, this from serialize.h
mod6: diff -uNr a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h
mod6: --- a/bitcoin/src/serialize.h bc602bfbc512259fbb6c01f2c1633ff142966bf0752612e9a488cee8a95da7921b98abe646e2f7002243f1981939372e0b53948646398e40525ed442c377f449
mod6: +++ b/bitcoin/src/serialize.h 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f
mod6: your patch should have antecedent: bc602bfbc512259fbb6c01f2c1633ff142966bf0752612e9a488cee8a95da7921b98abe646e2f7002243f1981939372e0b53948646398e40525ed442c377f449
phf: mircea_popescu: touched signatures?
mod6: not 3b61e200efe4b17a7f5384e13ab2a1a5e0a74fce0a097802d5e32bb5d74f88fa6e018f56c36ca9198d726a3a78168f87a6181d498cb7a388bc1f3adefa7cd93f
mircea_popescu: phf yes, the list of all signatures seen to reach that leaf.
mod6: ok, anyway.. lemme take a look at this.
mod6: so what i want to do
assbot: You rated user phf on 24-Jun-2015, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: Fixed our boxen!.
punkman: mircea_popescu: phf yes, the list of all signatures seen to reach that leaf. << that would just return "asciilifeform" :P
mod6: start without this patch : asciilifeform_malleus_mikehearnificarum.vpatchasciilifeform-programmable-versionstring.vpatch, or th mod6_der_high_low_s.vpatch
mod6: then recode all this stuff.
mod6: just imagine that they don't exist, now we need to reimplement those changes.
mod6: should I do mine first? then you can make your changes.
phf: oh oh people signatures, yes
mod6: i wanted a whole replacement for asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring.vpatch, not just the fix.
mircea_popescu: phf actually asciilifeform has a point : two signature lists are needed. complete and dependent. C = all signatures seen on any of the packages pressed ; D = the set of all signatures on which the current press depends - ie, without them you can't reach that leaf.
mod6: i'll fix all of this stuff.
mod6: i'll be afk for a bit.
mircea_popescu: A signed by a b c d ; B off A, signed by a, c, d. D off A, signed by a, d. C off D signed by d.
mircea_popescu: the first list for C is a b c d whereas the 2nd list for C is D.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the first list for B is a b c d whereas the 2nd list for B is (a) ; (c) ; (d) ie 3 lists.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'd say it's a degree question. if a hole found close to the surface, supuration is advised. if not, let blood carry the germs out. just like the body treats infection.
mircea_popescu: sure, people may maintain sparkly-clean trees for whatever reason anyway. but in general as to the "main" tree, best avoid both horns of the dilemma and tryt and sit in the middle.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58050 @ 0.00055672 = 32.3176 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 18:34:13; mod6: and next time, let's do this sort of testing before i ship
phf: mircea_popescu: is that a list of names that correspond to .wot? i.e. each patch has (asciilifeform, mod6, etc.) and then there's a set of all wots for current press?
mircea_popescu: basically i seek to answer two questions, from a management point of view.
mircea_popescu: question 1 is : who are all the people who contributed to this ?
mircea_popescu: question 2 is : who are all the people on whose word i am implicitly depending by building this ?
mircea_popescu: so by building B in the example i am in the situation where i know a and c and d must ALL lie.
mircea_popescu: whereas by building D i am in the situation where i know it's enough for d to lie.
mircea_popescu: (this approach probably makes the ancient "group is the enemy of intelligent life" / "only threat to wot model is agreement" etc painfully obvious - if a, c and d are a compact i'll just note them epsilon and pretend it's one thing)
phf: ah that gives you ability to press purely from wot knowledge, without reading the patch
mircea_popescu: must know who to thank and who to hunt down. that's what management is.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 11:10:04; jurov: that aside, there are completely different set of requirements, like, easy debugging. if lisp, then rather something with slime and good library bundled.
ben_vulpes: it nominally offers a lot over standard cl cffi, but i have not verified that myself.
ben_vulpes: has the unexpected advantage of making alf barf
mircea_popescu: but the problem per se wasn't the end he approached, but the other end.
mircea_popescu: and if we fix the other end, we actually fix this problem.
mircea_popescu: and even without the economic consideration, from a purely intellectual perspective. what is this inhuman, anti-intellectual "the bitcoin developers" bs ? we're not living in the village of pythagora over here, and we don't expect "anonymity" to stand in for sovereignity like five years old. gimme the motherfucking list.
ben_vulpes: because i want to press "shiva" into a tree that doesn't have, say, malleus_mikehearnificarum
mircea_popescu: anyway, notice the fractal beauty of the world : list 1 is really "the wot" ; list 2 is necessarily the lordship list. and by its very nature ... you can or can not chose various different lordships depending on what it is you're trying to do.
mircea_popescu: it's this sort of "doesn't repeat but rhymes" beauty that makes me thing we're really singing spheres music here.
assbot: Stalin</title><base href="
http://community.schemewiki.org/"><link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="RSS" href="/?c=rss"><link rel="stylesheet" href="/css/default.css" type="text/css"></head><body><h1 id="title"><div><a href="/?c=s&key=[[Stalin]]">Stalin</a></div></h1><div id="na ... (
http://bit.ly/1WVhvh2 )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i believe clasp is a standards-compliant commonlisp
ben_vulpes: if you have information to the contrary...
phf: asciilifeform: original conception requires "sufficiently smart patch" then, unless i'm missing something
phf: oh, if you remove joe from wot, v finds an alternative path
☟︎ adlai: ben_vulpes: "standards-compliant" lol.
adlai: if "standards" is plural, it's already noncompliant
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 15:24:32; asciilifeform: y suffered from delusions of physics - he was 'raised for physics' by his father, but didn't make the cut, and never lived it down
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: this is for a motherfucking crystalspace project
ben_vulpes: adlai: i don't know shit, frere, i just drag in dead birds for the adults to dispose of.
mircea_popescu: <adlai> if "standards" is plural, it's already noncompliant <<< for the record, the reason the enemy uses the plural there isn't that the enemy is this stupid, but that it believes in patchwork. ie, standards : one for this, one for that, together they make up a complete thing.
phf: clasp is very much anti-ba, there's no question about it, pulls a lot of projects together, of questionable pedigree
adlai: clasp is an answer to a specific problem which nobody here has... it's equally anti-pythagoras
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you know what "not making the cut" is wqith a woman ? even if you're a saudi prince and your daddy buys her for you ; even if you're an afghan monkey and she deeply believes she has to. there's a point where you make the cut or don't, and that's what it is.
mircea_popescu: physics is a well known whore. behaves the exact same way.
phf: adlai: clasp is a good fit for tendriling trb, if i had more time, i'd use it in a similar way to shiva. but then i'm already building trb on llvm/clang, etc. it is anti-ba though because of pedigree and ownership problem. can use it, if you have resources to read through 5 or so 100k loc projects
adlai: modern CL (as opposed to the ANSI doorstop) is a tool that evolved from a standard. r5rs is a standard. tinyscheme is a tool. etc etc... vita brevis, but there are at least a couple usable artes
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:29:40; mircea_popescu: and i fear nobody does nor could anyone have such resources.
mircea_popescu: as the linecount you're digesting increases you don't need more people. you need smarter ones. it's not like if you need one brick carried you hire one lout and ifg you need 10000 you hire 10000. it's like if you want 1kg carried you can use a dog, and if you need 10 tons you gotta learn to speak whale now.
mircea_popescu: well so then. i don't want 10x as many people that can jump 1m. i want people who can jump 10m now.
adlai: phf: also, afaict, clasp is designed for manipulating existing C++ libraries with your own tendrils, rather than tendriling an existing turdatron. tinyscheme is designed for the latter.
mircea_popescu: you know, if human ability were actually infinite, management wouldn't exist.
mircea_popescu: point remains, resource needs don't scale well in this type of problem.
phf: adlai: i don't see the difference. both require you to annotate your classes/method/data somehow. clasp requires less annotation with larger impact then tinyscheme, e.g. it knows about c++ and can do some advanced ffi-ing
phf: asciilifeform: that's what clasp does
adlai: while you may want missile guidance on board the missile, you might not want the chip fab on board as well
adlai: my understanding is that nobody here wants to make bitcoind, the minimal concrete-sealed weaponized Bitcoin-that-Exists, able to compile a new version of itself
mircea_popescu: well it'd pretty damned well be able to, else how is it an os
adlai: asciilifeform: isn't shiva supposed to be an optimal point BETWEEN sentient-AGI-bitcoinOS and jsonrpc on port 8332?
phf: asciilifeform: while the goals are different, the mechanism is the same. you annotate classes, methods and get stable refs in your lisp instance, which shares heap with the running c++ process.
adlai: rather than some continually-shifting goalpost that asymptotically approaches whatever sentience seems least broken
mircea_popescu: phf but these adnotations are necessarily not translateable.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 15:28:44; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because thiel got money and no self respect.
mircea_popescu: adlai no, shiva isn't supposed to be "an optimal point". it is supposed to be a CORRECT replacement of a currently broken implementation.
adlai: lemme put it another way... somewhere in the ANSI spec are probably one, two, or even three ~hundred~ symbols which the weaponized bitcoind-os does not need in its guts. define-setf-expander? define-method-combination? where do you draw the line?
adlai: ergo why the clasp horse is also unnecessary to continue flogging.
mircea_popescu: this log is moving so fast i'm actually getting contiguity issues trying to follow.
adlai: again, not trying to perscribe what's right; obviously asciilifeform understands what he's trying to do infinitely better than i can; but... i think the line is somewhere between embedding an interpreter for a subset of r5rs, and embedding a ~compiler~
phf: clasp is not "compiler research", is designed to scratch itch of a single person, for doing computational chemistry
☟︎ adlai: happy wanderings asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: adlai there's no option to embedding a compiler in an os.
adlai: mircea_popescu: in these early days, when Bitcoin does not yet fully Exist, it seems as though everything is an option. the full shiva vision, as i understand it from recent logs, opens the door to doing exactly that, if some energetic idiot decides it's a good idea
mircea_popescu: looky : currently we have a script that pulls dependencies, checks them, and builds.
mircea_popescu: the reason alf wants a cd is because what he really wants is A BOOT CD.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:40:36; asciilifeform: adlai: me.
adlai was "it's"ing about "doing exactly that", not about "BOOT CD"
adlai doesn't want a CD because 4/5ths of his hardware doesn't know what CDs are... but this is back to bedrock issues
mircea_popescu: i think maybe you've formed a partial idea of what's being discussed through the age old process of having read a partial set of what's been said.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, compiling bitcoin in bitcoin is not either a goal or liable to be implemented before actually having a bitcoin-fs say.
adlai keeps reading, both logs and seals, and maybe someday will have another partial idea
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the fact that bitcoin-os is the unavoidable end of this entire process requires things be thought out with a view to that fact.
adlai: well patches, not seals. the latter aren't particularly stimulating reading material per se
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105484 @ 0.0005514 = 58.1639 BTC [-]
mod6: I'm going to build with this and live test it before I submit to the mailing list.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 19:45:44; phf: clasp is not "compiler research", is designed to scratch itch of a single person, for doing computational chemistry
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92692 @ 0.00055672 = 51.6035 BTC [+]
adlai: phf: this web-facing thing is part of your CL vtron?
adlai wonders at the boundedness of CL vtrons... probably nonexistent
adlai: in the same sense as "eleven rabbis, twelve opinions"
adlai: boundedness [of implementation diversity]
adlai: how many roads must a man walk down before he stops taking the less-trod fork
ben_vulpes: how many rickety fucking buckets of others' design must a man endure before he gets the fuck out and walks on his own feet is the question i'm endeavoring to resolve for myself
ben_vulpes: entirely unrelatedly, can anyone corroborate the story of the russians who burned a shitton of usd on camera and got the then-fed to credit some domestic account or other?
mod6: ben_vulpes: how we lookin' bud?
mod6: im gonna test this revised patch, if works, send it, then get that SoBA in ship-shape.
ben_vulpes: did you get a chance to repro the issue i ran into with asciilifeform's shiva patches?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31800 @ 0.00055672 = 17.7037 BTC [+]
mod6: i might need a reminder. i did go through a bunch of your comments though.
mod6: yeah, no clue what you did there.
mod6: i was able to press all of that out just fine.
mod6: just had to stick his stuff into patches and .seals. but in all honesty, im not even sure if the patches & seals I'm using are what is indended at this point.
mod6: lets not worry about that for now. that thing is in its infancy.
ben_vulpes: so if i press those individually, in order, they work. but if i press the last patch, i believe that it fails to find its antecedents.
mod6: i kinda have to turn a deaf ear to a lot of this stuff until the new month starts, and even then, i gotta keep my eye on the prize - dispite any other problems on the periphery.
mod6: so ben_vulpes, understand that there is like a jumble of different things he submitted, and if the wrong ones are incorporated, it might puke.
mod6: like i said, lets just hold off on that.
mod6: it's not hurting anyone, and its not going in the release.
mod6: i can't even take the time to jump down that rabbit hole right now.
mod6: ahh, and then there is this now -- when compiling with alf's fix incorporated:
mod6: so that's not the only thing that needed to change.
phf: huh so with original v design, mod6 could sign all the patches that are deemed releasable, and then all you need is mod6.asc in your wot and trb will press
☟︎ phf: perhaps then trb instructions should be "download mod6.asc into ~/.wot" which is a trust starting point
phf: where's mirrors can contain any number of patches
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 17:53:21; mod6: <+ben_vulpes> yo mod6 what does it mean in perl to do my $var = "string" . \n "otherstring" is the period a linebreak escape in perl, and the variable implicitly a concatenation of the two strings << where do you see this? this is not a thing. that would fail to compile/pass-interpreter-smell-test.
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 17:53:34; phf: mircea_popescu: hey trinque jurov phf : would it be possible to take that very nice graph phf showed, turn it into a proper svg and have the nodes clickable ? << like
http://104.131.72.249/patches/? (is in no way bulletproof, so i expect it to be down by the time i come back from breakfast)
mod6: what version are you looking at? perhaps my 64 & 65 are different?
mod6: my $import = "gpg --homedir $tdir --logger-fd 1 --keyid-format=long " .
mod6: "--import $wdir/$pubkey 2> /dev/null";
mod6: ok so whats going on there is that to preserve 80 cols, i create a command spanning two lines
mod6: "command part A" . "command part B" and set that equal to $import
ben_vulpes: so the '.' is both a line-break escape and string concatenation?
mod6: then in the next line i do this:
mod6: my $res = `$import`;
mod6: and execute $import and set the result (output) of the command to $res
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> so the '.' is both a line-break escape and string concatenation? << its not a line break. its just a string concatenation.
ben_vulpes: well there is a line break between those two strings
mod6: notice how there is a space after '=long '
mod6: yup yup, i put a 0x0a in there just to preseve 80 cols. but perl deoesn't care nor does it add a '\n' to the command string
mod6: some of you out there who are following along will be like, "yeah, what about line 426, or 484 then!! eh!?"
mod6: well, i missed a few, need to clean those up :P
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 18:31:17; asciilifeform: BURNNN
jurov: which caused turdatron to skip it while searching for clearsigned part
punkman: everything I've sent has been octet-stream, I think
jurov: punkman what outgoing address/alias do you use?
jurov: did you ever sent anything to ml?
punkman: pub@extemporized.com , I manually set octet-stream for all my attachments, but it's possible the crappy email-sender I use overrode it for the email body
jurov: ah i see. but you send the clearsigned part as Content-Type: text/plain
jurov: (example: [BTC-dev] Some test patches and my V implementation)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116050 @ 0.00055698 = 64.6375 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: asciilifeform: <+mod6> so... i've integrated asciilifeform's fix into a new patch that will replace the old one:
http://dpaste.com/2KCXN8A.txt << <+mod6> ahh, and then there is this now -- when compiling with alf's fix incorporated: <+mod6>
http://dpaste.com/1AVK5ZP.txt << any thoughts on how to fix0r this?
punkman: web-based turdatron woulda saved you a lot of debug time :/
mod6: meanwhile, im gonna work on getting this SoBA completed. :]
jurov: asciilifeform: can't you just get rid of gmail? or it's the same situation as you and usg?
☟︎ jurov: punkman you're welcome to contribute a script that checks web submission (upload form for clearsigned text + any number of "attachments") and turns it into email
jurov: to mirror turdatron, only clearsigned text is checked if it's someone known to gpg, anything other is passed unchanged
adlai: felipelalli: nope, but the symptom is reproducible!
jurov: felipelalli: it's expired
felipelalli: jurov, and how can I workaround this? Or this is out of my control? :)
jurov: if you want you can send it to btc-dev, it ignores key expirations
adlai: what is expired? i was able to load it without any error about this
adlai sees: pub rsa4096/ED5CDE14 2013-05-02 [expires: 2018-12-06]
jurov: felipelalli: did you prolong it recently?
felipelalli: It has expired in my birthday (2015-12-06)
jurov: well, then both mine and deedbot-'s keyring wasn't updated with your update
jurov: you must wait for the botmaster (trinque afaik) to fix it
jurov: yes you uploaded, that part is fine, but bot hasn't downloaded it
adlai: assuming or suggesting that people use automated key upgrade mechanisms is... somewhere between negligent and criminal. at least, criminally negligent.
assbot: 30 results for 'add-key' - #bitcoin-assets search
jurov: oh yes! try resubmitting your pubkey to deedbot.
felipelalli: deedbot- gives some feedback after the add-key?
adlai: ben_vulpes: archive.is the best -ception
felipelalli: It should say something like "imported: FCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9" - but it didn't.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21832 @ 0.0005514 = 12.0382 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 14:42:22; mircea_popescu: just, if you want to add a patch, should be able to dump it as dpaste also.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: if i understand the shiva rebake correctly, applying tinyscheme_genesis_vpatch, then tinyscheme_crud_snip, then tinyscheme_repl_fix_fixed bangs the tree into the correct shape?
jurov: trinque: does deedbot allow submissions with detached signatures? like "deedbot- <url1.sig> <url2>"
jurov: thay would be much cleaner solution that trying to invent some "container" for patches to prevent whitespace/newline munging
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:48:02; jurov: asciilifeform: can't you just get rid of gmail? or it's the same situation as you and usg?
ascii_rear: gotta be able to receive from not-seen-before addrs
ascii_rear: but also don't have 2hrs/day to hand-sift
ascii_rear: i have a nongmail box but it is rapidly drowning under deluge
phf: ascii_rear: you tried fastmail?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34371 @ 0.0005517 = 18.9625 BTC [+]
trinque: jurov │ trinque: does deedbot allow submissions with detached signatures? like "deedbot- <url1.sig> <url2>" << it does not, but is not rocket surgery to add. seems useful for posting scripts
phf: kek, Selfimportant html ButtSecks header
felipelalli: kakobrekla, do you have an idea why deedbot- didn't accept my renewed key? thank you.
kakobrekla: felipelalli ask trinque, i dont run deedbot-
trinque: felipelalli: I thought you were talking about assbot
ascii_rear: maybe we will learn now why it does nothing on my wwwtrons
ben_vulpes: aha i begin to see the wisdom of pressing all reachable leaves now
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:28:00; phf: huh so with original v design, mod6 could sign all the patches that are deemed releasable, and then all you need is mod6.asc in your wot and trb will press
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, a large chunk of what mod6 is doing is running through the ever-expanding ball of patches and making a curated set.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40211 @ 0.00055583 = 22.3505 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: i'm willing to bet than when there will be turdatron www upload form, asciilifeform will use the most broken browser in existence to try to upload the files
jurov: like he does with the email client
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 20:51:15; felipelalli: any ideas why my doc was rejected?
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 21:27:52; jurov: thay would be much cleaner solution that trying to invent some "container" for patches to prevent whitespace/newline munging
punkman: gpg already has dpastable ascii containers
jurov: but they are completely unreadable
mircea_popescu: we're going the other way : taking gpg out, not putting more of it in.
ben_vulpes: anyways, mod6 you gotta upgrade v.pl to press *all* reachable leaves. that's the problem i'm running into with asciilifeform's recent shiva rebake
☟︎ mod6: all reachable leaves
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79696 @ 0.00055644 = 44.346 BTC [+] {5}
phf: put everything in tar containers?
phf: fwiw stock selection magic doesn't work out of the box on safari
ben_vulpes: can someone confirm that it's just as possible to malleate a transaction low->high s as it is to malleate it high->low ?
mircea_popescu: phf does the archive.is implementation work for yo u ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: meaning that transactions can only be malleated from high->low order?
ben_vulpes: in that it's possible to malleate in either direction. ease i suppose doesn't figure into the question.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55084 @ 0.00055834 = 30.7556 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: "is it as possible to turn a grade from 50% to 75% as it is to turn it from 75% to 50%" ?
mircea_popescu: in what sense ? paper will carry anything. the social practice of throwing curves won't. etc.
ben_vulpes: if you have access to the gradebook...
mircea_popescu: if you mine yourself, on your own coin, it is possible to do anything.
ben_vulpes: i create a transaction with a low s value. someone listening to broadcast transactions can rewrite my tx to have a high s value.
mircea_popescu: numerically, there is no way to distinguish between a transaction that was signed high and a transaction that was signed low and malleated to high
mircea_popescu: juist like numerically there is no way to distinguish between a transaction that was signed low and one that was signed high and malleated to low.
mircea_popescu: mostly because the conversion consists of substracting from a constant
ben_vulpes: now, are miners not mining transactions signed low?
mircea_popescu: the miners are mining low-s as is and malleating all high-s and mining them as low-s
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15575 @ 0.00056082 = 8.7348 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: the benefit of all this pile of legwork is deeply unclear,
ben_vulpes: now were b,tmsr~ to run its own pool mining only high-s transactions, would clients in the wild reject those blocks?
mircea_popescu: i originally thought so but research in here shows that no, it's never checked.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: feel free to read it yourself, pointer to code was in log
ben_vulpes: sure, i'm mostly confirming my own recollection.
ben_vulpes: but digging as far down into the roots of my conclusions as makes sense to dispel ambiguity
ben_vulpes: how did you come to the conclusion that it was miners doing the malleation, and not nobodies malleating and rebroadcasting?
mircea_popescu: cui prodest scelus is fecit, he who benefits from misdeed did it.
ben_vulpes: could just as easily be a USG FUD campaign.
ben_vulpes: it is greater on malleated transactions?! but but
mircea_popescu: if you include the tx, you get the fee. if you don't include it, for any reason, you don't get the fee.
mircea_popescu: since they agreed to only include low-s for whatever random reason / concern trolling / misinformed desire to be nice and good, they're stuck now.
mircea_popescu: note the very usg-tard approach to things : it IS true that ambiguous signatures are bad ; it is DEEPLY UNTRUE that we can counter this by AGREEING among ourselves "not to do it".
mircea_popescu: statutory solutions to bad design, a "western world" specialty.
ben_vulpes: but there's no actual reason why they couldn't mine high-s transactions, adherence to party line aside.
mircea_popescu: ``heathen command'' << am i the only one seeing a weird set of unmatching quotes here ?
ben_vulpes: that's how mod6 has always quoted things...
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> in that it's possible to malleate in either direction. ease i suppose doesn't figure into the question. << Someone malleating to high-s is why power derps started malleating to low-s
mod6: sometimes when i'm quoteing someone, as opposed to a thing, i'll use `` '' instead.
phf: so selecting works, but visiting url with selection gives me weirdest bugs :o
phf: i got tricked into hacking web
phf: gotta outsource it to ben_vulpes
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 302 @ 0.0034999 = 1.057 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo is actually right, there's some history of derpage in all this.
phf: he can get me a pm at $150/hr and two junior devs $50/hr each in no time. selection will work by next iteration, but will depend on jquery and react
☟︎ BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> since they agreed to only include low-s for whatever random reason / concern trolling / misinformed desire to be nice and good, they're stuck now. << It's power derps malleating tx on the way to miners, including on that realy network.
ben_vulpes: la serenissima might be able to rent my oar pullers if it could convert my deficit spending to turkey-buying dollars
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes serenissima would rather buy coke whores from drexl than west coast web coders.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo is actually right, there's some history of derpage in all this. << username high-s malleator used on social media was 'amaclin'
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you think i don't know this?
ben_vulpes: how do you think i'd rather spend my dollars, on 'macbook pros' or bitcoins and linux workstations?
mircea_popescu: my bet is diapers and station wagons, but we digress :D
ben_vulpes: don't even add up to a whole computer over the year.
mircea_popescu: actually from what i hear, that's the voice of privilege.
BingoBoingo: brb after dinner and 12&12 study to issue qntra statement
mod6: oh hey, did i screw that up?
mircea_popescu: the first is a mere spelling error. the second, shoul;dn't there be a [R]eference to the email ?
mod6: mod6's vpatch, `mod6_der_high_low_s.vpatch' [R.09]
mod6: ok yeah, there is a ref in there. ^
mod6: spelling error. christ on a pony.
mod6: "Hier lies mod6, couldn't spell."
ben_vulpes: i even pointed that one out to you, but we're mad busy
mod6: oh f. yah you did. dangit.
mircea_popescu: mod6 released V [v99996] [R.05] that resolved a defect and implemented two
mircea_popescu: change requests. The intimate details of the changes are outlined in the
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67095 @ 0.00055133 = 36.9915 BTC [-] {4}
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: would you confirm that tinyscheme_genesis_fixed.vpatch does *not* depend on shiva parts one and two?
☟︎ mod6: mircea_popescu: that part is just in reference to V's release in R.05, not the high/low S patch which is R.09
mircea_popescu: so then "the email to the mailing list" symbol shouldn't have a reference ?
mod6: oh, it does, sometimes if it's been referenced before in the document, i don't re-reference it.
mod6: NOTE: With the publication of the latest version of V [v99996] [R.05] these
mod6: makefiles, as they were submitted to the Mailing List [R.06]
mod6: where that part is above the section for [V]
mod6: i just tried to avoid extra clutter in there.
jurov pats mod6 on the shoulder... no problem, i had to redo monthly treasury report once or twice, too
phf: ben_vulpes: yeah, i fixed more things since i last chimed in, but now end range is not being covered on safari
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes does the selection work on trilema for you ?
ben_vulpes: phf: also, if you'd care to share your llvm/clang compilator i'd love to take a look
phf: so i dropped patches from "[BTC-dev] Tinyscheme Genesis, Cleanup, and Fixes, CORRECTED; -and- Shiva Pedigree Bridge." but i'm still missing something so they are just hanging there separately,
http://104.131.72.249/patches/ ☟︎ punkman: there's a part about a dir rename in that mail
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: highlights "uppose if we were all mentally retarded a la United States / Some O"
mircea_popescu: "riously, so the girl won't fuck because she figures you don't value her if she" << on my system
phf: yeah, that's what i'm debugging right now
phf: mircea_popescu: it's broken across multiple dom elements
mircea_popescu: i guess i fucked it up when putting it on trilema ? asciilifeform ^ mind saying what the above link does ?
☟︎ phf: on safari first selection (if we were all...) simply breaks, second one works
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: has blessed us with a new root node with which to fuzz all v implementations
mircea_popescu: phf the truth is that it'd be great if there was a way for reader to select what text he's referencing. but if it can't be made to work then we can't really use it.
ben_vulpes: but it's so close! with only an unknowable amount of further hacking it could totally work!
punkman: why not highlight server-side
phf: ben_vulpes: so shiva 2 of 2 links to rest of tree, shiva 1 of 1 is a genesis with no descendants, and that whole tinyscheme_genesis_fixed tree presses into tinyscheme/ root that's not even inside bitcoin. i'm not sure what ascii is up to
punkman: just need a ? instead of #
mircea_popescu: the dom is a wholly client side thing, server just spits out a string as far as it's concerned
punkman: it'd work better for viewing, because I've seen broken selections a lot too
ben_vulpes: a thing to do might be to leave the genesis press as-is, move the resulting tinyscheme dir into the correct shiva location and then press the rest of the patches reground to reference the shivadir
ben_vulpes: this means that v-pressings have to be idempotent.
ben_vulpes: eg that `v press shiva stans_sweet_patch.vpatch && v press shiva stans_sweet_patch.vpatch' must result in the same tree as running the command once.
ben_vulpes: so that operators can press, migrate dir, and press more.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell asciilifeform ^^ plz to opine
assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021486 B (Total: 426.88 B). Delta: -1.51 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000209 BTC [-]
assbot: I don't give a shit who saw what and who did what or who did who.
phf: so if i have a->b->c d->e and i'm pressing to b, i need to make sure that topo sort is d e a b c, so that the press includes d and e
phf: doing by the book kahn topo sort on my graph results in topo a b c d e so pressing to c drops the whole d e subgraph
assbot: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250 Million through His Digital Currency Business | OPA | Department of Justice ... (
http://bit.ly/1WVGFwa )
felipelalli: mircea_popescu, I know that you think expire a key is a bad idea. I saw you saying that in MPEx FAQ. But why? Could you elaborate more about that? Isn't that useful in case someone dies or lost the control over the key?
felipelalli: trinque, no I was talking about deedbot-. The bot didn't accept my renewed key.
phf: in fact kahn iterates over a set of nodes, so there's no explicit order guarantee
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97146 @ 0.00056026 = 54.427 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: phf: the chains must kiss somewhere in order for the ordering to make sense
ben_vulpes: felipelalli: mpex doesn't respect key expiration extension.
phf: but that merges nodes from unrelated graphs without any sort of sense or reason
phf: asciilifeform: ^ plx
ben_vulpes: phf: what do you mean "first seen nodes"?
phf: ben_vulpes: kahn loops over a list of nodes that starts with genesis. on each iteration node in the list is inspected, its children added to the list for further inspection. you can give priority to what was in the list first or give priority to what's in the list last, which will produce either depth first or breadth first walk
ben_vulpes: i suspect v's toposort will need to account for multiple geneses
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 18:19:27; phf: right now it seems like an artifact of topo sort
ben_vulpes: either that or find roots first, toposort from each root, and then apply each set of toposorted patches in some arbitrary order
phf: well, original v uses python dictionary for "list to inspect", i.e. order is non-deterministic
mircea_popescu: phf> doing by the book kahn topo sort on my graph results in topo a b c d e so pressing to c drops the whole d e subgraph << this is correct.
mircea_popescu: <felipelalli> mircea_popescu, I know that you think expire a key is a bad idea. I saw you saying that in MPEx FAQ. But why? Could you elaborate more about that? Isn't that useful in case someone dies or lost the control over the key? << how is a bitfield in the gpg key help you in case you die ? or lose control of the key ? neither of these are time-able events.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: this introduces a conflict between "pressing a head presses all signed patches at same leaf-level that have been signed by wot"
mircea_popescu: uh. how are unconnected nodes at "the same level" ? they're at an undefined level
ben_vulpes: this was a thing i bounced off weeks ago!
mircea_popescu: if d e do not have a common antecessor with c, pressig to c dropps them.
assbot: Logged on 14-11-2015 02:10:00; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the press algo must then press all same-tree-level leaves for the given leaf, correct?
mircea_popescu: you're thinking global scope like some sort of perlhead.
ben_vulpes: but there's no guarantee that it renders a b c d e instead of d e a b c
mircea_popescu: anyway. there is no concept of level defined outside of a press.
mircea_popescu: if you're pressing c, then all the leaves c depends on have levels, and only they have a level.
ben_vulpes: what is to be done with c' and c'', then (patches that also depend on b but have nothing to do with c)
mircea_popescu: if you're pressing e, d is 0, and e is 1, and a, b and c are all ?
ben_vulpes: but the primes, do i press them? or simply recurse up the antecedent chain cleanly?
ben_vulpes: where c, c' and c'' all depend on b. if i press c, do c' and c'' make it as well?
mircea_popescu: that's entirely up to you neh ? i'd prefer it if i told you to press c for you to limit yourself to pressing c.
mircea_popescu: someone who is doing debugging might wish to see the whole tree all the way down
ben_vulpes: sure, and i don't take much umbrage at this.
mircea_popescu: generally from what i've understood, the default behaviour was production (1st above), whereas people these days decided they'd like to see development (2nd above). i also don't take umbrage with this.
mircea_popescu: but unconnected graphs are a horse of another feather.
ben_vulpes: sorry for all the dumb questions, just working to tease out into explicitude what everyone else takes for granted.
phf: mircea_popescu: what to do about a b->c->d e->f press to c. a b c? or b c?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no it's not bad, make sure we're ACTUALLY on the same page as opposed to just jointly excited.