a111: Logged on 2018-07-09 01:53 mircea_popescu: esthlos can't select portions of your blog! but anyway, "Make a new patch with esthlos-v_genesis and some node of the EuCrypt tree as parents." wasn't contemplated, because
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-29#1592769 a111: Logged on 2018-07-09 02:02 mircea_popescu: that satisfies ?
mod6: np, much appreciated, Sir!
a111: Logged on 2018-07-09 22:25 mircea_popescu: the correct solution is to distinguish selling and buying auctions. change the "A#285" lede into either "B#285" or "S#285" and then if it's a S have it work as it works now, but if it's a B have it work ~reverse~, so smaller bids overbid larger bids.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-09 22:26 mircea_popescu: and thusly keep transactions in the republic denominated in the currency of the republic.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-09 22:26 asciilifeform: logical. lobbes , can haz ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-09 22:35 lobbes: asciilifeform: can haz. I'ma move this up to item #1 in hopper
a111: Logged on 2018-07-09 23:12 Mocky: so then the auction would go like a buy order for $1025 USD, with an opening bid of 0.15 BTC. Then a bid of 0.14 BTC overbids. This seems like all around a pretty convenient thing.
deedbot: asciilifeform voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: Looks like we have a bit of weather on the Freenode
mod6: stormy, with a chance of packeting
a111: Logged on 2018-05-21 11:48 spyked: it might also in a way be interesting to report how I stumbled upon this: I tried to recompile gnupg-1.4.10 on my broken debian system and got the same "multiple definition" linking errors as in vtools' case (though I *did* use gcc<5). so I dug and found the usual kochs "fixing" things to compile gnupg on newer gccs.
diana_coman: spyked, but it doesn't see even 1 side fully
diana_coman: or what, I need to delete the patches from the other side? hmmm, let me try that
spyked: that oughta work. I can't find the discussion where phf recommended this approach of keeping just one side of the tree in the patchset.
diana_coman: right you are, it does work! thank you spyked, you saved me a ton of time really
diana_coman: I even remember the issue being discussed now that you mention it
diana_coman: I guess I'll leave a comment on his blog for easier future ref
mod6: how goes today diana_coman?
diana_coman: not bad, at least some things are working! heh
mod6: oh nb. deleted one side of the tree, now it's ok eh?
diana_coman: aha, I just entirely forgot that discussion until spyked mentioned it
mod6: glad you got it goin
mod6: i just realized that i want pancakes
mod6: i never eat pancakes
phf: like i said couple of days ago i'm going to forward merge that whole right side, right now the only advise is to delete the right hand side because none of the extant V's can resolve that graph, obviously a suboptimal suggestion. i'm working on a better grapher, but until then..
☟︎ phf: let me retest it, but as far as i recall it was producing a patch order that doesn't press
phf: asciilifeform: nope, another form that as of now doesn't have a name
phf: asciilifeform: i need to upload it into my brain first, let me get back to you on that one
phf: asciilifeform: well, i'm not sure what "spuriously bifurcated tree" means in this case, the goal was stated in the one of the posts, that i'm explicitly maintain two separate branches, that hinge on two separate manifest paths. this is the kind of stuff v is designed for neh? press to vdiff_sha_static to get one thing, press to vtools_vpatch_newline to get the other
phf: there is a manifest in this version of vtools
phf: ah see the graph is misleading, because btcbase base grapher culls it. we've ran into similar issue back in the heavy experimental trb days, so one of the very first things that the btcbase distinguished itself on is producing a graph of possible presses, rather than pure antecedent/descendent. this was discussed and documented in the logs, in before "why you do that!1"
phf: in order to produce a graph there's a walk to root phase, the walk keeps track of press state at each node and dismisses connections edges that result in an invalid state. now WHY this is needed is because each individual vpatch doesn't keep track of the entire state, but only about its particular subset of state that changed.
phf: if you want to reduce the problem to a "don't do this" policy, then it stems from repeated hunks across multiple vpatches, i.e. if you have two or more vpatches that have identical state transitions. something like that is bound to happen when you're attempting to port a feature between branches, as is the case with vtools. (i.e. you patched foo.c in one file "remove broken behavior", you now want to also introduce same fix to the other branch)
phf: so policy wise, like you say "no cyclical graphs" you can say "no identical changes in more than one v patch"
☟︎ phf: manifest doesn't solve this problem, because manifest doesn't get any kind of priority treatment. if you hinged your press purely on a manifest descendent/antecedent chain then everything else will just work™
phf: yeah, obviously total state eliminates all the "multiple state transitions in a single vpatch" related problems
phf: well, i kind of dig the emergent v graph behaviors, so i don't mind it either way, though btcbase doesn't press cleanly either (^ "all extant V's"). nothing keeping one from tacking on additional state to a crystalized vpatch either, and then you're stuck with another "though shall not, because reasons"
phf: (btcbase doesn't choke on circular graphs, though in a general case it bails. if the circle is in the descendants order is determined by walk's order of entry, a circle back to genesis though can still be broken by explicitly designated something as "genesis", etc.)
a111: Logged on 2018-07-10 14:43 phf: so policy wise, like you say "no cyclical graphs" you can say "no identical changes in more than one v patch"
mircea_popescu: moreover, how can "more than one" vpatch be ~identical~ ? items of the same name and contents are the only items that have the same hash, which is the only basis for identity.
mircea_popescu: how are you distinguishing those more than one patches of the same content by the same name ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i didn't say more than one vpatch are identical, i said that they shouldn't contain identical changes. a single vpatch can contain changes for several files. if two vpatches have a same subset of changes to individual files you have a problem.
mircea_popescu: i don't understand this, you mean patch A having changes a, b, d, e (ie, 4 different patch sections) and B having c, d, e, f ?
mircea_popescu: let me ask you this : is your visualizer essentially a by-file processor ? because this'd be wrong, the concept of "file" is meaningless, entirely just like "new line". text administration flows by viewport and so on.
phf: i don't know what a by file processor is
phf: actually, i think i have a memory of that, and no btcbase is entirely hash first
mircea_popescu: the only reason i can imagine someone'd have the problem you describe is if they built their thing around the primitive "file" rather than around the primitive "patch"
mircea_popescu: so if it's built around patches and the patches are different what difference does it make that two different patches might apply the same tranforms to the same files ?
phf: mircea_popescu: the problem i describe exists in every single V implementation, hence none of them can press a particular graph
phf: well, i'm having hard time thinking about it, yet alone articulating it. like i told ascii (before we continued talking about it anyway), i need some time to reupload the problem, because i haven't thought about it in a while.
phf: i haven't thought about it very much?
mircea_popescu: however much time you might need to think, there isn't very much time altogether, because we can't sit around with an unresolved dilemma of both "this is the grapher use it" and "don't use it, doesn't work".
phf: originally my replacement was for diffing and patching exclusively, not the graph resolution problems. i was tasked with a replacement around the time when my food work got heavy, and i'm only now revisiting it. the problem wasn't even verbalized until closer the the end of vtools development, because particular choice of vtools delivery demonstrated the problem to begin with
phf: btcbase (being a sprawling common lisp beast) has one of the possible solutions actually implemented and working. i'm wrestling the essence of it out, enough to add some kind of graph sorter to vtools
phf: i figured that's not the case, i'm just reiterating the logs for the logs, because the evil twin of not reading the logs is apparently forgetting what was read in the logs
mircea_popescu: and the smalle third brother is reference-by-memory, where i say dumb shit like "that @@ discussion" instead of putting in a link.
mircea_popescu: then ten years later memory's faded and nobody alive can untangle the yarn anymore.
phf: personally-advantageous-obfuscation by reference-by-memory, we're reinventing the empire here
mircea_popescu: fwiw, memory never was anything other than "personally advantageous". them wetram cells gotta pay the glucose bills.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-05 23:18 trinque: you edit db.cpp. I edit main.cpp. how does someone now use both of those pieces of work in a 3rd patch.
mircea_popescu: in other similar news, star quest tcg is a pretty fucking great game. polished and shit, apparently you can still have web development that's not crap
deedbot: RusAlex voiced for 30 minutes.
RusAlex: hi, thanks for voicing. just found a link on bitcoin.foundation and Im here.
mircea_popescu: i'm having for breakfast leftover sandwiches that were originally made for camping on the beach, so i figure... what the hell... and made myself a little model campfire out of toothpicks in the middle of the table.
mircea_popescu: and it shames me to admit just exactly how i came to not have any.
mircea_popescu: broke them all trying to stab various butts & parts over time.
mircea_popescu: silver ones were kinda common during one of the silver crazes
mircea_popescu: though if you're willing to spend money on silver tootpick why not just fix the holes.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 15:33 asciilifeform: Mocky: to function as a troo vtronicist, gotta grasp the concept, described by e.g. dijkstra, that a line of code you have written is not an asset, but an expense. (specifically, an expense against the time budget of other thinking people, who must read and grasp what you have written. )
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 14:17 asciilifeform: as for asciilifeform , he would actually prefer if mircea_popescu shot straight and said 'hell no i won't pay for no stinkin' software', rather than the peculiar ritual of having a contest, then to proclaim the submitters as a whole 'self-indulgent indolent' and then in the end to take s.nsa crypto lib and use for phree anyway
mircea_popescu: specifically, writing software is not some kind of hired work, like polishing boots or cutting hair. writing software is a dignity, in the exact sense there contemplated : republic gives you, ivan ivanovich, a budget of so many lines, as if it were so many bitcoins, to ~EXPEND~ in a defensible, meaningful, useful an' rational fashion ( hence
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832667 discussion ).
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 18:19 mircea_popescu: esthlos welcome to the mechanisms of lordship. it's your project, it's your job to make this sort of decisions. "should this be rewritten in lisp, imported in ada, be turned into a point of grafting on eucrypt tree ?"
mircea_popescu: just because it happens that in all other cases of "you're in charge of so-and-so-chapter of defense budget/film budget/family budget" one gets a fixed number to work with, whereas here the number's not aforeknown... makes entirely no difference. it's still budgetary exercise, that superficial difference is meaningless given the substantial identity.
mircea_popescu: hm, this "write line as long as you wish, program will split" fix turns out to not play so well with logreader...
Mocky: and moreover, a compounding expense (for software lines) forcing extra expense for future modifications
mircea_popescu: which is why the whole wot thing works so well for it.
Mocky: asciilifeform, zackly: compounded expense now beyond paying
mircea_popescu: not to mention it readily explains a lot of other things, such as why we opress the stupid, the poor, the "alternatively" sexuate, the bizarrely literate etcetera.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very much, technology sufficiently primitive is indistinguishable from lottery
☟︎ deedbot: sluttylouise voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-26 21:20 hanbot: mircea_popescu by design apple exists to try and make you use its thing, whether it's some itam or some os or some cable, and it'll make things maximally unpleasant for anyone not on the bandwagon, at any point where the nonapple and the apple touch.
mircea_popescu: how the empire manages to ~DELIVER~ right around the fence is one of the most remarkable mysteries.
mircea_popescu: no, it just somehow manages to deliver 100% of what needs delivery to the marginal. it does nothing to you, and the fact that it manages to keep kazure captive is of no consequence
mircea_popescu: soviet survives while it can keep the large mass of epsilonians inside.
mircea_popescu: suppose there's a measure of human fitness, not quite IQ but anyway, just as insanely, a positive integer scalar. suppose there's a measure of human confusion, going from 0 (full pantrsuit, actually believes socialism is a thing, etc) to 1 (actual republican).
mircea_popescu: now, the fence separating the 2nd scale 0-epsilon from the rest of the world doesn't necessarily keep inside 0-epsilons on the first scale.
mircea_popescu: they're not unrelated scales, of course, but they're related backwards.
Mocky: re: ~DELIVER~ right around the fence: there's a lot of zeks employed working around the appleness to make new shiny for the epsilonians. part of the chumpatron
mircea_popescu: certainly, but most us army grunts have to buy their own whatever, silly string.
BingoBoingo: In other news of interest to asciilifeform: Tienda Inglesa has taken down their seasonal display of TV's for the word cup and replaced them with a display of... Ammo can... well, they labeled them toolboxes
phf: hmm, cp101pa hardware is really flaky, or perhaps i got a dud unit, because the "random shutdowns" "can't wake up" "stuck in a turn on/turn off mode" issues persist
☟︎ phf: nah, i didn't go as far as motherboard removal. i was thinking this might be heat issue, but that would be out of the box, and the pattern don't really correspond to heating
phf: tried to turn it on right now, the lightbulb blinking rapidly and there's like a "turn on suddenly turn off" whine from board if you listen up close
phf: so i closed the lid, reopened tried again, now it boots, but the unix time is at 0
phf: just literally lightly moved the unit, it shut down
phf: sad, i was warming up to it as a note taking tool..
phf: asciilifeform: have you been using yours extensively, i.e. as a booted device, running linux etc. on a day to day, or it's only been on trepanation table so far?
phf: i'm going to go with mp's theory
BingoBoingo: Right, the problem has to be your room isn't intimidating it enough into behaving. Pick up a car battery and some cables with alligator clamps. Don't attach the battery to the machine. Just let it sit where the chromebook can see it.
mircea_popescu: maybe if we keep going in this vein we can get the un to sponsor trilema.
BingoBoingo: Sometimes the implied threat works better making the technology behave
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> maybe if we keep going in this vein we can get the un to sponsor trilema. << Phf hasn't turned the chromebook into ladypants yet
phf: BingoBoingo: i think it's about the right mindset though, can have all the tools in the world, and you're still going to look like a jerk off. nah, i think i just need to get my head game straight
BingoBoingo: His headgame, the series of puzzles he presents to size up strangers.
phf: it's the lingo cool kids use these days
a111: Logged on 2013-08-22 17:41 mircea_popescu: <Rulother> you know you can't just power cycle a machine with no idea what's going on :D
deedbot: Scwepp voiced for 30 minutes.
Scwepp: Did men create everything in this world?
diana_coman: Scwepp, did you solve all the other, more close to home problems and that's the only trouble you have left?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 17:24 trinque: maybe PeterL or danielpbarron want to give it a try too
diana_coman: huh, no stamina even, where are the retards d'antan
mircea_popescu: i was just thinking, it's so rare for one to take a hint.
diana_coman: there were at least 2 pointy hints this time!
diana_coman: the sound made in the void between the ears?
PeterL: so I have been looking at v. (specifically asciilifeform's python version) it seems to me that there should be a "pruning" step after the flow is laid out to remove any patches that are not ancestors of the desired leaf, so that you would not have to manually remove patches.
PeterL: but then why are people having trouble with the two branches of vtools?
PeterL: it seems like with branches a-b-c and a-b-d it ends up making a flow a-b-c-d ?
diana_coman: fwiw it's not a matter of pressing weird stuff - v.pl doesn't even report some patches in the flow at all if ALL patches in both branches are present
diana_coman: the actual pressing as far as v reports the flow works as expected
mircea_popescu: PeterL you know there are limits to this hobbyist approach.
mircea_popescu: solving any problem consists of carefully loading very finely defined borders of issues in one's head. the hobbyst approach relies on a sort of "generally speaking", consisting of "people" and "having trouble" and "in the general area". as you might imagine, the mismatch is deeply irritating to the first set.
PeterL: alright, I will try to refine my language
diana_coman: today is clearly not my day for working stuff; it's the weirdest thing I've seen: v.pl dies at *different files* at each run complaining that sha sum doesn't match
diana_coman: and on one hand the file complained about has only *one* entry in the genesis vpatch i.e. just created so wtf
diana_coman: and on the other hand sure enough the hash calculated on whatever it spew of it is the one it reports and ofc it doesn't match what is in the vpatch
mircea_popescu: encoding issue ? did some magic utshits make it in maybe ?
diana_coman: so I'm asking here as honestly I had quite enough of software for today
diana_coman: no idea but fwiw I was playing with it on the rockchip; as far as I can tell both lobbes and esthlos used some previous versions; (btw esthlos can you maybe show the date of the post somewhere convenient? it's really weird to have to guess it/search for it)
☟︎ diana_coman: ah, um, nv esthlos ; found it at the bottom, lol
mircea_popescu: ftr date should be at top, in the byline, with the author's name under the title~!
mircea_popescu: "it’s not a stop game in itself" -> "it's not in itself a game stopper"
ben_vulpes: PeterL: i started from the output of 'make menuconfig' and pruned it over time
PeterL: I was thinking of trying to repurpose an old macbookpro I had lying around