mircea_popescu: ahahahaha. so in further "everyone in sweden is just asking to be raped with a toilet plunger", nobel prize for literature -> bob dylan.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 23:56 mircea_popescu: script needs to be killed / specified.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: are you doing this to prototype your 32b tx header index idea?
ben_vulpes: > "the Commission believes that the significant markets for bitcoin are unregulated."
ben_vulpes: "exchanges that account for the bulk of trading are subject to little regulatory oversight and that existing know-your-customer or identity-verification measures are lax and can be easily bypassed"
ben_vulpes: "because we've made it impractical to trade the underlying, nobody trades the underlying on our wholly-owned venues"
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> bashops uber alles << yeah, CI to mean doesn't mean "must use current devop-isms". we could build our own automated toolset. np.
ben_vulpes: "daily trade volume is only a small volume of total bitcoin mined"
mod6: *to me doesn't mean
ben_vulpes: "in stark contrast to gold, where daily trade volume exceeds total mined by several orders of magnitude"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes isn't all teh butthurt delicious though ? "we are very upset that apparently we don't matter ; also we won't mention mp's warning about all this because then it won't burn so much."
mircea_popescu: mod6 right you are. in fact it's pretty much what you['ve been doing.
ben_vulpes: to jump over to mod6's thread for half a second, both he and i have our own suite of automated tests
mircea_popescu: also wtf are they on about, 3600 bitcoin mined a day, 10-15k traded a day (on fiatola outlets), 30-50k total.
ben_vulpes: total outstanding, not traded over daily mining vol
mod6: in fantasy land, you can make up reality as you go. np.
ben_vulpes: anyways, having thought about "testing" trb, i am interested to hear what kinds of tests framedragger would write
☟︎ jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 1180.9, Best ask: 1181.0, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 1181.0, 24 hour volume: 27111.34861041, 24 hour low: 1129.0, 24 hour high: 1196.6, 24 hour vwap: None
mod6: ben_vulpes' is making some super cool v automated tests as well. there is a bit of overlap, but perhaps one day, his will become the defacto-standard tests. mine are a bit brittle to say the least.
ben_vulpes: i went so far as to set up a solipsistic test net before bumping into the dumb-as-rocks "needs 2 nodes in order to mine" shit
ben_vulpes: so before even thinking about CI the testing strategy needs some actual thought, planning, and likely at least one patch. maybe more.
ben_vulpes: one quickly starts thinking thoughts like "verify whole chain for every vpatch"
ben_vulpes: or possibly recently "sync from on-host, known-fast node for every vpatch"
ben_vulpes: probably could be done on a machine costing ~2btc/yr
ben_vulpes: (well, not entirely baseless, i've put a modicum of thought into the topic and have been pricing a new box to boot)
mircea_popescu: prolly should churn the chain as a test yeh. also a tx fuzzer would be great in general.
ben_vulpes: if afl is not a lurking piece of garbage, plugging trb into that might yield some interesting strange.
mircea_popescu: it means you feed a trb to be tested randomly generated "txn"
mircea_popescu: at the very least try see what happens in the obvious cases, doublespend, bad block etc.
ben_vulpes: should even be possible to test reorg behavior!
mircea_popescu: signatures don't match, scripts are bad, inputs are bad, outputs are too long, on it goes
mircea_popescu: prolly but that's finnickyer. unless of course we bother to create 3rd item here, which would be a test chain.
mircea_popescu: to be fed to node to be tested from block 1 onwards, can set own difficulty then.
ben_vulpes: hey, if genesis is programmable, can generate chains for testing on the fly
☟︎ ben_vulpes: can even diddle trb-observed clock to get difficulty curve to do whatever
ben_vulpes: i hope the point is coming through, though, that 'CI' is utterly irrelevant in the face of the scope of systems choreography demanded and actual tests to be written
mircea_popescu: this is no kind of argument against having test suite.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 18:29 mircea_popescu: which is why all the impudent cuntlets want to be "in a creative career" aka hallucinated non-science. if irresponsible activity bereft of verification, ie, the antithesis of science, then their imposture has some space
mircea_popescu: engineering is specifically the practice of eliminating expectations from human behaviour. it is the hopeless adventure.
mircea_popescu: not so. these are the materials, this is thereby the bridge.
mircea_popescu: (materials, here, means : the river ; the metal ; the tanks)
mircea_popescu: there's no expectation involved. for these tanks on this river out of this metal this is the bridge.
mircea_popescu: no, because docker rat fails to correctly pile up his materials.
mircea_popescu: for the docker guy ? make pile of tanks (what he's engineering for) ; river (what he's engineering against) ; metal (what he's engineering with).
mircea_popescu: people are utterly resistent to doing this, principally because hopemechanism/bad engineers.
mircea_popescu: the meaning of pile is that they are defined, specified, circumscribed.
mircea_popescu: expectation is the equivalent of the continuous tense, you may have expectations out of your household. but no expectations are involved in fuckgoats. if the current is what it was specified it'll work and if not it will burn. what do you ~expect~ ?
mircea_popescu: i expect girl to shave. ie, tomorrow. i don't expect anything out of the floor.
mircea_popescu: no, it means actual expect. something you want and will take time.
mircea_popescu: "we're expecting her to deliver my child in june". that's expect.
mircea_popescu: but i wouldn't say "when i pull trigger i expect round to discharge". because i don't.
mircea_popescu: yes, if you meant "maybe alf typos the code and doesn't notice" then yes, expect.
mircea_popescu: how this would work -- i've no idea, but technically i suppose it's there.
mircea_popescu: seriously though, trivial failure mode. compiler wil lcomplain if nothing else.
mircea_popescu: mp goes hunting. if mp goes hunting without a rifle and bullets, mp has fucked up the tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in unknown martian planet, ends up eaten by hunter-eater, mp has fucked up river part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in zoo, shoots english bobby through overpenetration, mp has fucked up tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in hunting place and hunts quarry but misses his shot, tech
mircea_popescu: same exact thing with the docker people -- if theior problem was that they wrote spr1ntf it'd be one thing
mircea_popescu: their problem, however, is that they have nfi what they're doing, like that dog driving van on trilema.
mircea_popescu: well i fucked it up, said tanks twice. first one is metals.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> signatures don't match, scripts are bad, inputs are bad, outputs are too long, on it goes << yeah, exactly. eventually coverage like this is a must. eventually.
mod6 goes to read about Zuleika
mircea_popescu: you won't see 239 cuz it timeouts at 240 lol. and if you wait enough might even see 278.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 03:11 mircea_popescu: nope.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 02:25 ben_vulpes: hey, if genesis is programmable, can generate chains for testing on the fly
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 01:58 ben_vulpes: anyways, having thought about "testing" trb, i am interested to hear what kinds of tests framedragger would write
Framedragger: agree with mircea_popescu re fuzzing any inputs (primarily transactions)
Framedragger: would be interesting to set up shitty-network-failure scenarios to see how 'antifragile' it is with regards to syncing up.
Framedragger: this would require a decently thought out testing framework (i don't mean shitty-web-framework, just, a systematized approach)
Framedragger: this would be decently-demanding undertaking though, so makes sense to start from simpler unit tests which e.g. simply check if hash/signature checking routines work well. would still be handy for regression testing during development / when code is added, etc.
mircea_popescu: yeah a blockchain-and-mempool testing harness would be a mighty fine item to have.
Framedragger: probably worth thinking about it more, it'd be quite a spiffy thing indeed... that said, i have a more general concern with time-sunk-cost-to-trb. i do wonder how realistic it is to expect a trb-i in the years to come. if it is, then working on shitty legacy trb codebase is opportunity cost par excellence :( ; but, maybe testing harness could be generic enough to be easily re-usable.
mircea_popescu: it's not just the direct effect ("generic enough to be re-usable"). much more important are the second order effects. (if you never went to school, you'd never even HAVE KNOWN what computers are, and consequently...) sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: it is a very false idea that what we say here "is in the open" and thereby "anyone could" etc. the prb devs can't, notwithstanding their own delusions of information and ability.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 14:39 mircea_popescu: you ever go to school ? what usually happens there's a chick there that's really good pre-puberty. then she starts bleeding, and she skips some classes / homeworks / attentionpaying. and then... she can never catch back up again. because interlocking.
Framedragger: i see what you mean - knowledge gained on the problem space, processes with dealing with problems and researching this domain developed, etc.
mircea_popescu: and the product of this ("obviousness") is reallyt the lest fungible item there is.
deedbot: fake_space_whale voiced for 30 minutes.
fake_space_whale: Is there an intro to trilema somewhere? I tried poking around the website and didn't find anything in my brief hunt.
mircea_popescu: ugh. between the blog and the log he didn't find anything ?!
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: 7*10**9/27**4 = 13171.734962112445
mircea_popescu: fine illustration of birthday paradox. if names were 4 characters long and randomly distributed, there'd be 13k people with the same name
mircea_popescu: anyway, in other lulz, what is the winklevoss / silbert / etc usgian dorks claim to fame now ?
davout: mircea_popescu: why 27 ?
jhvh1: davout: 7*10**9/26**4 = 15318.091103252687
Framedragger: maybe not important enough to recalc and repub checksums heh
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mno, this was a super random find, was going over some logs, re-read piece of your sage probe article, poked source out of curiosity
Framedragger: "when 4chan / $an_internet sets his mind to something"
Framedragger: i really admire the amount of effort you took to carefully spell out ways of auditing the thing
Framedragger: ^ should be gold standard for hw vendors for all i know
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i understand, but i mean the *detail*, etc. - it's a nice manual with everything spelled out for the user
Framedragger: yes yes i understand, the cherry on top is that you make sure it's also *easy*.
mircea_popescu: strongest rebuff i know of the whole "ustards, psssh." angle.