▁▁▁▁⏐︎▁▁▁▁▁ 3239
mircea_popescu: ahahahaha. so in further "everyone in sweden is just asking to be raped with a toilet plunger", nobel prize for literature -> bob dylan.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1626033 << noshit! but it can only happen in trbi ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 23:56 mircea_popescu: script needs to be killed / specified.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was attempting a nonretarded trb-fs.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: are you doing this to prototype your 32b tx header index idea?
mircea_popescu: and in "creative punishment for when she leaves the seat down" : http://68.media.tumblr.com/a3df8a95aba72f77c3dd84453d8e0201/tumblr_nit6o4adp71tgdz6ro1_400.gif
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/batsbzx/2017/34-80206.pdf
ben_vulpes: > "the Commission believes that the significant markets for bitcoin are unregulated."
mircea_popescu: doh.
mod6: heheh
ben_vulpes: "exchanges that account for the bulk of trading are subject to little regulatory oversight and that existing know-your-customer or identity-verification measures are lax and can be easily bypassed"
mircea_popescu: in other usg, http://68.media.tumblr.com/f807573edb2b0f7a29f5ff72d97f83c1/tumblr_nhoc41C1Bp1r539hzo1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: "because we've made it impractical to trade the underlying, nobody trades the underlying on our wholly-owned venues"
mircea_popescu: aha.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> bashops uber alles << yeah, CI to mean doesn't mean "must use current devop-isms". we could build our own automated toolset. np.
ben_vulpes: "daily trade volume is only a small volume of total bitcoin mined"
mod6: *to me doesn't mean
ben_vulpes: "in stark contrast to gold, where daily trade volume exceeds total mined by several orders of magnitude"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes isn't all teh butthurt delicious though ? "we are very upset that apparently we don't matter ; also we won't mention mp's warning about all this because then it won't burn so much."
mircea_popescu: mod6 right you are. in fact it's pretty much what you['ve been doing.
ben_vulpes: to jump over to mod6's thread for half a second, both he and i have our own suite of automated tests
ben_vulpes: suites*
ben_vulpes: er
ben_vulpes: for v i suppose, nevermind.
mircea_popescu: also wtf are they on about, 3600 bitcoin mined a day, 10-15k traded a day (on fiatola outlets), 30-50k total.
mircea_popescu: that's a degree of magnitude.
ben_vulpes: total outstanding, not traded over daily mining vol
mircea_popescu: durr.
mod6: in fantasy land, you can make up reality as you go. np.
ben_vulpes: anyways, having thought about "testing" trb, i am interested to hear what kinds of tests framedragger would write ☟︎
mircea_popescu: !~ticker
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 1180.9, Best ask: 1181.0, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 1181.0, 24 hour volume: 27111.34861041, 24 hour low: 1129.0, 24 hour high: 1196.6, 24 hour vwap: None
mod6: ben_vulpes' is making some super cool v automated tests as well. there is a bit of overlap, but perhaps one day, his will become the defacto-standard tests. mine are a bit brittle to say the least.
ben_vulpes: i went so far as to set up a solipsistic test net before bumping into the dumb-as-rocks "needs 2 nodes in order to mine" shit
ben_vulpes: so before even thinking about CI the testing strategy needs some actual thought, planning, and likely at least one patch. maybe more.
mircea_popescu: overlap is not badf either.
mircea_popescu: but yeah, ben_vulpes has point.
ben_vulpes: one quickly starts thinking thoughts like "verify whole chain for every vpatch"
ben_vulpes: "sync from net for every vpatch"
ben_vulpes: or possibly recently "sync from on-host, known-fast node for every vpatch"
ben_vulpes: probably could be done on a machine costing ~2btc/yr
ben_vulpes: entirely baseless estimate
ben_vulpes: (well, not entirely baseless, i've put a modicum of thought into the topic and have been pricing a new box to boot)
mircea_popescu: prolly should churn the chain as a test yeh. also a tx fuzzer would be great in general.
ben_vulpes: what means "tx fuzzer" to mp?
ben_vulpes: if afl is not a lurking piece of garbage, plugging trb into that might yield some interesting strange.
mircea_popescu: it means you feed a trb to be tested randomly generated "txn"
mircea_popescu: at the very least try see what happens in the obvious cases, doublespend, bad block etc.
ben_vulpes: yup
ben_vulpes: should even be possible to test reorg behavior!
mircea_popescu: signatures don't match, scripts are bad, inputs are bad, outputs are too long, on it goes
mircea_popescu: prolly but that's finnickyer. unless of course we bother to create 3rd item here, which would be a test chain.
mircea_popescu: to be fed to node to be tested from block 1 onwards, can set own difficulty then.
ben_vulpes: hey, if genesis is programmable, can generate chains for testing on the fly ☟︎
ben_vulpes: can even diddle trb-observed clock to get difficulty curve to do whatever
ben_vulpes: i hope the point is coming through, though, that 'CI' is utterly irrelevant in the face of the scope of systems choreography demanded and actual tests to be written
mircea_popescu: yeah
mircea_popescu: well, i said it's not even a bad idea back then.
ben_vulpes: unrelolted: https://heatst.com/tech/he-will-not-divide-us-livestream-placed-in-middle-of-nowhere-but-4chan-still-found-way-to-troll-it/ ☟︎
mircea_popescu: "anachronistic message board" ?
mircea_popescu lost interest.
asciilifeform: liquishit that tests to spec is still liquishit.
asciilifeform: per dijkstra's 'tests reveal presence of bugs, but never their absence'
mircea_popescu: this is no kind of argument against having test suite.
asciilifeform: not argument against; but for realistic expectations.
mircea_popescu: there aren't any expectations.
asciilifeform: engineering without expectations is not detectably different from taking a shit and other excretory exertions
asciilifeform: 'oh i'll grunt and -- come what may !'
asciilifeform: y'know, as in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623271 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 18:29 mircea_popescu: which is why all the impudent cuntlets want to be "in a creative career" aka hallucinated non-science. if irresponsible activity bereft of verification, ie, the antithesis of science, then their imposture has some space
mircea_popescu: this is nosnense.
mircea_popescu: engineering is specifically the practice of eliminating expectations from human behaviour. it is the hopeless adventure.
asciilifeform: failure is not a defined concept absent expectations.
asciilifeform: bridge holds 100 tanks indefinitely, or 500 for 30 minutes. is an expectation.
mircea_popescu: not so. these are the materials, this is thereby the bridge.
asciilifeform: that's called an african pile of shit, or, charitably, 'junkyard wars' contest. not engineering.
mircea_popescu: nope.
mircea_popescu: (materials, here, means : the river ; the metal ; the tanks)
mircea_popescu: there's no expectation involved. for these tanks on this river out of this metal this is the bridge.
mircea_popescu: there aren't two. this one.
mircea_popescu: there's no expectation involved whatever.
asciilifeform: shifting from a conceptual to a present 'this is the bridge you have, motherfuckers, drive' is dirty thinking.
asciilifeform: at the design stage, there is an expectation, engineer knows in advance that if the thing buckles under any number of tanks that its surface might contain: stalin will shoot him
mircea_popescu: no serious engineer thinks or cares about this
asciilifeform: what does 'serious engineer' even mean, if not 'cares about this'
mircea_popescu: "not cares about this"
mircea_popescu: cares about this -> straight to alchemist corner
asciilifeform: then mircea_popescu's 'serious engineer' includes docker rat
mircea_popescu: no, because docker rat fails to correctly pile up his materials.
asciilifeform: why does he fail, if not from refusing to agree to a verifiable expectation of correct function ?
asciilifeform: fails because did not pray to vishnu correctly ?
mircea_popescu: because he did not pile up all his materials.
asciilifeform screws in brand-new gas mask canister
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: say what means 'pile up all his materials' plox
mircea_popescu: for the docker guy ? make pile of tanks (what he's engineering for) ; river (what he's engineering against) ; metal (what he's engineering with).
mircea_popescu: people are utterly resistent to doing this, principally because hopemechanism/bad engineers.
mircea_popescu: plenty of examples scattered in the logs, but anyway.
asciilifeform: in what sense does 'pile' in this construction not equal to what other folx mean when they say 'plan' ?
asciilifeform: let's take concrete example,
mircea_popescu: ok
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, drawing up FUCKGOATS, had to pick what voltage regulator to use, they come in wide variety of max & peak voltage and current ratings
asciilifeform: the choice is constrained by the peak & avg. drains of the other components
mircea_popescu: ok
asciilifeform: at no point did asciilifeform make a physical 'pile' to determine the correct answer, it was arrived at on paper, with pen
asciilifeform: where is then the 'pile' ?
mircea_popescu: that's a pile alright.
mircea_popescu: the meaning of pile is that they are defined, specified, circumscribed.
asciilifeform: but not 'an expectation.' ? why the word substitution .
mircea_popescu: docker dude dun do that.
mircea_popescu: there's no expectation involved.
asciilifeform: the expectation is that the capacity of the reg is > the current drain. of the floor in a house > the pianos. etc
mircea_popescu: this is no expectation.
mircea_popescu: what interval do you wait ?
asciilifeform: well in the particular example given, failure would have become apparent within a millisecond or so
asciilifeform: and you could smell it.
mircea_popescu: expectation is the equivalent of the continuous tense, you may have expectations out of your household. but no expectations are involved in fuckgoats. if the current is what it was specified it'll work and if not it will burn. what do you ~expect~ ?
asciilifeform: you expect the floor to stay put when the piano is brought into the house.
mircea_popescu: nope. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: if it will or if it won't, either way.
asciilifeform: and of the gadget, to shit forth rngolade , rather than malodorously combusting
mircea_popescu: expect less live longer.
mircea_popescu: i expect girl to shave. ie, tomorrow. i don't expect anything out of the floor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu seems to think that 'expect' means 'unfoundedly expect'
mircea_popescu: no, it means actual expect. something you want and will take time.
mircea_popescu: "we're expecting her to deliver my child in june". that's expect.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu would not structure phrase, e.g., 'when i aim the rifle and pull trigger i expect to hit the target' ?
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: but i wouldn't say "when i pull trigger i expect round to discharge". because i don't.
asciilifeform: but not 'i draw up a house and expect that the floor will hold my 48 pianos' ?
mircea_popescu: not.
asciilifeform: how does aiming the rifle differ from drawing up a house, other than time parameter ?
mircea_popescu: cuz im involved in the aiming neh
asciilifeform: i suspect that we've unearthed the point of disagreement here
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu does not picture building the house with own hands
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: or so i read from 'im involved in the aiming'
asciilifeform: presumably you could just as readily be involved in the felling of trees, mixing of cement, whatever else goes into building house.
mircea_popescu: i didn't imagine that's what you mean.
mircea_popescu: yes, if you meant "maybe alf typos the code and doesn't notice" then yes, expect.
mircea_popescu: how this would work -- i've no idea, but technically i suppose it's there.
asciilifeform: y'know, i could write an eliza that 'wins' arguments this way
mircea_popescu: myeah. i expect you could.
asciilifeform: can i use 'i didn't imagine that's what you mean' in the phrase table, or has mircea_popescu trademarked !
mircea_popescu: seriously though, trivial failure mode. compiler wil lcomplain if nothing else.
asciilifeform: butno srsly i have nfi what mircea_popescu meant here.
mircea_popescu: let's insist.
asciilifeform: aite, i'm all ears
asciilifeform: how does aiming the rifle differ, other than timewise, from designing a house that you then build with own hands
mircea_popescu: mp goes hunting. if mp goes hunting without a rifle and bullets, mp has fucked up the tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in unknown martian planet, ends up eaten by hunter-eater, mp has fucked up river part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in zoo, shoots english bobby through overpenetration, mp has fucked up tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in hunting place and hunts quarry but misses his shot, tech
mircea_popescu: nical alf-raised problem, mp still hunter.
mircea_popescu: same exact thing with the docker people -- if theior problem was that they wrote spr1ntf it'd be one thing
mircea_popescu: their problem, however, is that they have nfi what they're doing, like that dog driving van on trilema.
asciilifeform: aaaah we had this thread!!
mircea_popescu: prolly.
asciilifeform: !#s матчасть
a111: 4 results for "матчасть", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
asciilifeform: ^ what mircea_popescu referred to as 'tanks part'
asciilifeform: we have a w0rd for it
mircea_popescu: well i fucked it up, said tanks twice. first one is metals.
mircea_popescu: but yes, it's not a novel thought by any means.
asciilifeform: literally, 'material part', that is, of the immutable physical pieces of a problem.
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: http://lurkmore.so/images/7/78/Matchast%27.JPG << see also!
asciilifeform: ^ is this funny only to asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: lol no, it's kinda funny
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> signatures don't match, scripts are bad, inputs are bad, outputs are too long, on it goes << yeah, exactly. eventually coverage like this is a must. eventually.
mircea_popescu: yea
asciilifeform: http://lurkmore.so/images/b/b9/Kim_chen_zavod.jpg << in other lelz
mod6: heheh.
mod6 goes to read about Zuleika
mircea_popescu is curious what peeps think.
danielpbarron likes it so far
asciilifeform: sed -n -e 's/^.*Ping timeout: //p' trilema.log | sort | uniq | cut -c1-3 | tr '\n' ' '
asciilifeform: 240 244 245 246 248 249 250 251 252 255 256 257 258 260 264 265 268 272 273 276
asciilifeform: whywhywhy.
asciilifeform: why never 239
asciilifeform: or 278 !!!
asciilifeform: tell me o wise men.
mircea_popescu: you won't see 239 cuz it timeouts at 240 lol. and if you wait enough might even see 278.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-12#1626153 <<< argument clinic!!1 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 03:11 mircea_popescu: nope.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-12#1626089 <<< this would be pretty cool, is also correct way to testnet ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 02:25 ben_vulpes: hey, if genesis is programmable, can generate chains for testing on the fly
mircea_popescu: check it out internet boat hit mauritius
Framedragger: https://github.com/adlai/cjhunt << nothing original to add ☟︎
Framedragger: oh shit clipboard
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-12#1626065 << nothing original to add ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 01:58 ben_vulpes: anyways, having thought about "testing" trb, i am interested to hear what kinds of tests framedragger would write
Framedragger: agree with mircea_popescu re fuzzing any inputs (primarily transactions)
Framedragger: would be interesting to set up shitty-network-failure scenarios to see how 'antifragile' it is with regards to syncing up.
Framedragger: this would require a decently thought out testing framework (i don't mean shitty-web-framework, just, a systematized approach)
Framedragger: this would be decently-demanding undertaking though, so makes sense to start from simpler unit tests which e.g. simply check if hash/signature checking routines work well. would still be handy for regression testing during development / when code is added, etc.
mircea_popescu: yeah a blockchain-and-mempool testing harness would be a mighty fine item to have.
Framedragger: probably worth thinking about it more, it'd be quite a spiffy thing indeed... that said, i have a more general concern with time-sunk-cost-to-trb. i do wonder how realistic it is to expect a trb-i in the years to come. if it is, then working on shitty legacy trb codebase is opportunity cost par excellence :( ; but, maybe testing harness could be generic enough to be easily re-usable.
mircea_popescu: it's not just the direct effect ("generic enough to be re-usable"). much more important are the second order effects. (if you never went to school, you'd never even HAVE KNOWN what computers are, and consequently...) sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: it is a very false idea that what we say here "is in the open" and thereby "anyone could" etc. the prb devs can't, notwithstanding their own delusions of information and ability.
mircea_popescu: goes right into the whole http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625397 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 14:39 mircea_popescu: you ever go to school ? what usually happens there's a chick there that's really good pre-puberty. then she starts bleeding, and she skips some classes / homeworks / attentionpaying. and then... she can never catch back up again. because interlocking.
Framedragger: i see what you mean - knowledge gained on the problem space, processes with dealing with problems and researching this domain developed, etc.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mircea_popescu: and the product of this ("obviousness") is reallyt the lest fungible item there is.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-12#1626220 << that thing requires prb to work ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 14:44 Framedragger: https://github.com/adlai/cjhunt << nothing original to add
asciilifeform: !!up fake_space_whale
deedbot: fake_space_whale voiced for 30 minutes.
fake_space_whale: Is there an intro to trilema somewhere? I tried poking around the website and didn't find anything in my brief hunt.
asciilifeform: fake_space_whale: http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic
fake_space_whale: okay thanks.
mircea_popescu: ugh. between the blog and the log he didn't find anything ?!
mircea_popescu: anyway, that's a kickass article so there is that.
mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, https://archive.is/BNCIn
asciilifeform: lol!!
mircea_popescu: !~calc 7*10**9/27**4
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: 7*10**9/27**4 = 13171.734962112445
mircea_popescu: fine illustration of birthday paradox. if names were 4 characters long and randomly distributed, there'd be 13k people with the same name
mircea_popescu: ~on average~
mircea_popescu: anyway, in other lulz, what is the winklevoss / silbert / etc usgian dorks claim to fame now ?
davout: mircea_popescu: why 27 ?
davout: !~calc 7*10**9/26**4
jhvh1: davout: 7*10**9/26**4 = 15318.091103252687
mircea_popescu: i got more letters apparently.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-slaves-of-1935/ << Trilema - The slaves of 1935
Framedragger: asciilifeform: OT and just grammar nitpicking, but in http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/sage_pill.py line 22, s/Could connect/Could not connect/
asciilifeform: Framedragger: ah lol
Framedragger: maybe not important enough to recalc and repub checksums heh
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you have a probe nao ?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mno, this was a super random find, was going over some logs, re-read piece of your sage probe article, poked source out of curiosity
asciilifeform: lolk
asciilifeform currently occupied with printing FUCKGOATS manuals, colour laser
Framedragger: ahhh good stuff.
Framedragger patiently awaits merchandise from the master
asciilifeform: they're going out this week.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: cool deal!
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-12#1626094 << very nice! flight trail and star map correlation etc ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 02:39 ben_vulpes: unrelolted: https://heatst.com/tech/he-will-not-divide-us-livestream-placed-in-middle-of-nowhere-but-4chan-still-found-way-to-troll-it/
Framedragger: "when 4chan / $an_internet sets his mind to something"
asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com UPDATED!
asciilifeform: (scroll to end)
asciilifeform: ow fuck, html mutilation of the commands
asciilifeform boils with hatred
asciilifeform: fixed.
asciilifeform: i made the mistake of editing the text on a crapple shitintosh
asciilifeform: it shat orc glyphs into the ascii.
Framedragger: i really admire the amount of effort you took to carefully spell out ways of auditing the thing
Framedragger: ^ should be gold standard for hw vendors for all i know
asciilifeform: Framedragger: these are just basic tests. and distinct from the proper audit described in earlier text
asciilifeform: where you actually determine that the cpld follows the claimed logic.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i understand, but i mean the *detail*, etc. - it's a nice manual with everything spelled out for the user
Framedragger: right, right.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: the auditability is the entire point of FUCKGOATS.
asciilifeform: and distinguishes it from literally every other rng in existence .
Framedragger: yes yes i understand, the cherry on top is that you make sure it's also *easy*.
asciilifeform: updated again.
mircea_popescu: yeah the find a flag by polaris story is pretty cool.
mircea_popescu: strongest rebuff i know of the whole "ustards, psssh." angle.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger yeah, thourogh, isn't he.
Framedragger: for reals.
mircea_popescu: !!key euloraplayer
deedbot: Not registered.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/i-love-her-or-collection-des-billets-doux-cca-2017/ << Trilema - I love her, or, Collection des billets-doux cca 2017.