tmsr - Log 2017-08-15

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/#comment-122625 << in other "trilema aeterna" lulz.

trinque: lol potato and wire architecture not going so well for fleanode

shinohai: !~weather

jhvh1: stormy with a chance of packeting

deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/08/14/the-phantom-of-the-opera/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The Phantom of the Opera

mod6: shinohai has it

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697917 << pupil only contracts if ~whole retina is illuminated. hence 'do not stare into laser with remaining good eye' ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 20:37 mircea_popescu: that's why the whole "doctor shining light in eyes" thing.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697933 << pretty easily. asciilifeform had a bumper wreck in bmore once, passing cop declined to take report, demanded 'who was killed here? if nobody, i have no time for this, and no one else from station will come either' ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 20:57 mircea_popescu: how the fuck does the police "decline" to patrol.

asciilifeform: ( why even asked? because insurance pays 0 w/out police docs )

asciilifeform: iirc the details of this tale are in last summer's l0gz

mod6: wb

mike_c: good evening

mod6: how goes tonight?

mike_c: smoothly :)

mod6: heheh, good to hear, Sir.

phf: was it netsplit? everything appears operational

mod6: phf: fwiw, i don't see a111 in my current /names list.

mod6: Guest41016 [~a111@unaffiliated/phf/bot/a111-]

mod6: that's it ^

phf: aah

phf: i see

phf: for a second there i thought freenode finally jumped the shark

mod6: heheh.

asciilifeform: yeah i thought also.

asciilifeform: in other enigmas : http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/5q4lR/?raw=true

asciilifeform: it is an implementation of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697730 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:57 asciilifeform: if instead of 'mult of 64' we had 'powers of 2', we could dispense with the odd split in karatsuba

asciilifeform: however, the expected speedup did NOT materialize !!

asciilifeform: despite 50% reduction in temp space used by karatsuba mult and square

asciilifeform: how this can be -- remains a puzzler.

mod6: so you didn't get the 10%?

asciilifeform: nope

asciilifeform: ~no measurable speedup

asciilifeform: which is surreal.

mod6: hmm

asciilifeform: i suspect that the reason is that the op fit in cache ANYWAY even prior

asciilifeform: so reducing temp space, does 0.

asciilifeform: this kind of optimization could be interesting if we were dealing in MB+ ffaism

asciilifeform: but apparently does 0 for us in the expected application.

asciilifeform: also imho the item above is LESS readable than the original.

asciilifeform: so it turns out that imposing 'powers of 2' is NOT a win.

asciilifeform: at least not from a mechanical pov.

asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/YoOl3/?raw=true << 'classical' versions of all 3 routines above, for comparison.

mod6: as it stands, at the moment, sounds like a mechanical push. with the ability to set the length to some power of two. i'd say it's a bit harder to follow, code-wise, with the recursive calls perhaps.

mod6: but i've only scanned it once. so perhaps I shouldnt comment too much on that.

asciilifeform: mod6: see earlier thread

mod6: my ffa must be way old

asciilifeform: mod6: almost certainly is

asciilifeform: i abolished the 'record' thing

asciilifeform: ( to enable building with all oopism banned )

mod6: ah

asciilifeform: and to simplify reading.

asciilifeform: ( no moar foo.Z , now just foo )

mod6: ah, gotcha

asciilifeform: mod6: idea with this item, is that L is a power of 2 always. in 'classical' one, L can be anything (e.g. a 192-bit ffa ends up 3*64 on my box, i.e. L=3 )

asciilifeform: but as it happens, my hypothesis re 'this will speed up mult' is wholly false; and the one where 'it will simplify program from reader pov' also, somewhat paradoxically, false.

mod6: this might be extra-strength dumb, but... in your new power of 2 version, do you need to inline the Mul & Square of karatsuba?

asciilifeform: 'this' being, if it wasn't obvious, the powerof2 constraint thing.

asciilifeform: mod6: you can't inline a recursive invocation, wtf ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( picture this )

mod6: ah herp. ok.

asciilifeform: gcc will give you a very special eggog, even

asciilifeform: ^ for readers who wondered why karatsuba is the 1 routine in ffa ~not~ inlined... think.

mod6: yeah, ok, so the compiler can't determine the max depth to unroll when recursive

asciilifeform: gnat ain't supposed to unroll. at all.

asciilifeform: ( in so far as i can tell, it indeed respects the standard, and preserves control flow as written )

asciilifeform: mod6: you can't inline a recursive call because this'd be logically equiv. to making the program infinitely long

asciilifeform: i thought this was clear...

mod6: that's what i was trying to get at. i suppose the compiler would just reject your request to inline then, or perhaps thats ctronic thinking.

asciilifeform: it will

asciilifeform: ( and it ain't an instance of 'compiler too smart for own good', either, but perfectly legitimate refusal to try to fill up the universe with your mistake )

asciilifeform: the inline thing may seem like premature optimization, but function calls in ada are quite expensive, because bounds checking. so it makes MASSIVE difference.

asciilifeform: hence why everything that oughta be inlined, i empirically determined, and already is.

mod6: werd.

asciilifeform: ( the whole thing is quite compact, and misering on codesize loses massively moar than it wins here. (

asciilifeform: )

asciilifeform: this is perhaps the most pedantically massaged item asciilifeform ever wrote, this thing

asciilifeform: ( and it ain't even over yet )

asciilifeform tries to count how many 'improved' versions he wrote, and then discarded...

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> is the "i just wanted to" right opposed at the "i just wanted to left" removal as being too radical ? after all, they DO "just want to" undisturbed ? or what ? << It seems like there is a mass of confusion in them.

mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697732 << >> <+asciilifeform> despite 50% reduction in temp space used by karatsuba mult and square ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:58 asciilifeform: and by extension, with the temp buffers in same

mod6: this is very interesting.

mod6: <+asciilifeform> this kind of optimization could be interesting if we were dealing in MB+ ffaism << yeah, perhaps the sample size used was not enough to see the delta?

asciilifeform: mod6: below noise floor

ben_vulpes: in other web esoterica: http://packet.city/

ben_vulpes: "the greatest website to ever fit in a single TCP packet"

mod6: asciilifeform: so if you add back in the FZs that were removed in the 2^n version (re-adding in the 50% reduction of temp space that yields no opt.), do we get the ~runtime of the original?

mod6: just wondering if it could be a mechanical push, yet slightly more readable. maybe making 2^n version more grokable?

mod6: basically, being able to call something like:

mod6: Mul_Karatsuba(X0, Y0, P);

mod6: as opposed to:

mod6: Mul_Karatsuba(X(X'First .. X'First + K - 1),

mod6: Y(Y'First .. Y'First + K - 1),

mod6: P);

mod6: not that the latter is all /that/ bad.

mod6: just curious

asciilifeform: mod6: i dun understand the question

asciilifeform: if you do this, you get the original, what else could you get

mod6: maybe i should ask a different question: which part do you find to be less readble?

asciilifeform: the changed lines, what else

asciilifeform: e.g. the one you quoted

mod6: just was curious if your readability issue could be resolved with pulling the paramaters of Mul_Karatsuba back out in similar fashion to the original. 'tis all.

asciilifeform: you can't 'similar to the original' , it would BE the original

mircea_popescu: phf multi-netsplit yes.

asciilifeform: mod6: 'if grandmother had balls..' (tm)

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> which is surreal << cache neh

mircea_popescu: heh. yeah ok.

mod6: the math is different from one to the other, is it not?

asciilifeform: mod6: same

asciilifeform: but no copying of the input

mod6: i dun get it then

asciilifeform: get what?

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698054 :D ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 02:15 asciilifeform: mod6: you can't inline a recursive invocation, wtf

mircea_popescu: this'd be great actually.

asciilifeform: mod6: to understand ffa, you absolutely gotta grasp how ada array slices ( which Always Do The Right Thing ) work

asciilifeform: they're the foundational abstraction that makes the thing compact and readable

mod6: i dun get why, if you didn't change the maff, why you would make it more complicated

asciilifeform: mod6: because we can't use the shorthand any moar

asciilifeform: no moar x0, y0, etc

asciilifeform: they don't exist

asciilifeform: they're replaced with the slice expression

mod6: mmk

asciilifeform: and incidentally mod6 , is it obvious why this only works if L is restricted to powers of 2 ?

asciilifeform: mod6: an array slice ( concept which also exists in common lisp ) can be thought of as a sane man's pointer. i.e. it maps into the original, and writes go through; but it is guaranteed not to spill, out of the original or out of its own more constrained bound

asciilifeform: it can be used as a procedure argument anywhere you could use an array.

asciilifeform: array slices retain the indexing of the underlying array. this is The Right Thing ( see prev thread on subj where i explained to mircea_popescu ) but makes iterating over them slightly trickier in certain cases.

mod6: <+asciilifeform> and incidentally mod6 , is it obvious why this only works if L is restricted to powers of 2 ? << no, i think im missing the entire idea of why this is written this way.

asciilifeform: mod6: look at x0, x1, y0, y1 in original kara-mul, and xl/xh in kara-square

asciilifeform: they're temp copies of the multiplicands

asciilifeform: they exist so that the input:output lengths invariants of subtraction and of kara recurse per se, 1:2, are met

asciilifeform: ( subtraction's -- 1:1 obviousness )

asciilifeform: this is because in the original, you can have a L of, say, 3

asciilifeform: which splits with K of 2 and J of 1

asciilifeform: giving X0 of lengh 2, X1 - 1, Y0 - 2, Y1 - 1

asciilifeform: but we're doing fixed length everythings, so , e.g., x0*y0 MUST occupy same physical space as x1*y1 etc

asciilifeform: and you can't subtract ffa x0 - x1 unless they are same lengh !!

asciilifeform: you can't use ada's array concatenation feature either, to cheat, because i banned it. it introduces implicit jump.

asciilifeform: it is banned in all of asciilifeform's crypto code, 4evah.

mod6: alright. thanks for the explanation.

asciilifeform: makes sense ?

asciilifeform: try working through a case where k != j and see what happens.

asciilifeform: see if you can predict how it will end.

asciilifeform: ( out of bounds exception, proggy stops. but where. )

asciilifeform bbl

ben_vulpes: why is ln(16)/ln(2) so tidily and precisely 4?

ben_vulpes: what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of? ☟︎

mircea_popescu: ...

mircea_popescu: 4 / 1 ?

ben_vulpes: i...don't follow

mircea_popescu: 16 is 2 to the power of 4.

mircea_popescu: this stays the same irrespective of which base you use to express the ratio.

ben_vulpes: aaah. then it was a /personal/ failing, not a systemic one.

mircea_popescu: im not even sure what the failing is ?

ben_vulpes: having forgotten how logarithms work

mircea_popescu: as per that ancient "doctor, is it bad if i hear voices ?" "only if you start answering."

ben_vulpes: heh

mircea_popescu: i suppose a better translation would be "doctor, i hear voices, they talk to me, should i worry ?" "you should worry when you start talking back."

ben_vulpes: oh subject of, i just had a grand time with rushdie's satanic verses.

mircea_popescu: coo

mircea_popescu: !!up crypt0

deedbot: crypt0 voiced for 30 minutes.

BingoBoingo: !!up b00sterjuic3

deedbot: b00sterjuic3 voiced for 30 minutes.

lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697607 << here is my computation (using 4096 bit limit; comes out to 4093 bits): http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/WonUN/?raw=true ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:20 mircea_popescu: this is actually going to be teh magic number of the republic. so at this juncture i would like to ask everyone to compute "the largest primorial (ie, product of all successive primes) that fits in 515 bits", sign it and put it into deedbot.

lobbes: If using the 4160 bit limit, then I get the following (comes to 4150 bits): http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ED76z/?raw=true

lobbes: aka, I get the same output as both of PeterL's runs

mircea_popescu: lobbes ty!

mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "the taking of pelham 123" is one helluva usg-film offering. we find that "wall street guys" r criminalz, that everyday mta riders are heroic (even if a little half-breed), and all sorts of good and valuable citizenship lessons for life!

asciilifeform: !~later tell mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6WPk2/?raw=true << 2^n karatsubas, with same readability as 'classical'

jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.

asciilifeform: using the 'rename' feature

asciilifeform: no detectable performance difference at all, however. even with w=32768 .

asciilifeform: ... even with 1MBit (!!!) , i.e. 1048576 . ☟︎

mod6 looks

mod6: ah, ok. so you gotta add a subtype for that.

mod6: looks cleaner. not sure it is necessary though.

mod6: a topic for further discussion i suppose.

asciilifeform: mod6: not sure WHAT is necessary ?

mod6: having to do the 'rename'

asciilifeform: it's that, or forcing the reader to puzzle out repeated pastes of the slice expression

mod6: thanks for humoring me though

asciilifeform: np mod6

shinohai: !~echo [ticker --high --market btcc] [ticker --low --market btcc]

jhvh1: 4456.4344 3988.038296

asciilifeform: in other heathen lulz, https://toughsat.appspot.com

shinohai: Reply from Anonymnt & friendz: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/VwqRc/?raw=true

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698171 << this is a little rich. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 14:58 asciilifeform: ... even with 1MBit (!!!) , i.e. 1048576 .

mircea_popescu: o.O

mircea_popescu: tuberculosis of the gut ?!

shinohai: tl;dr I'm afraid to get picked apart if I come to #trilema, I prefer to stay on steemit and feed idiots full of shit.

mircea_popescu: shinohai hey, the forum is a high bar.

asciilifeform: gut?!

asciilifeform: lol!!

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i never heard of this before ? i mean, lung, bone, some vacuous organs. but gut ?!

shinohai: This is an actual disease, believe it or not.

mircea_popescu will now have to hit the textbooks.

shinohai: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209546/

shinohai: Often misdiagnosed as Crohn's disease iirc

mircea_popescu remembers the day mycobacterium was called "koch's baccilus"

asciilifeform: 'палочка Коха'

mircea_popescu: must suck.

shinohai: Charlie Shrem on twatter: "Bounty: I want to run a full node and connect to @Blockstream satellite. Sell me a DIY kit with all requirements" ☟︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: idiot

shinohai: (From https://github.com/blockstream/satellite)

mircea_popescu: he STILL doesn't know how to run a node ? after all this fucking time ?

asciilifeform: i dun think this one has the excuse of mere idiocy

shinohai: He missed a lot of teh logs in prison!

mircea_popescu: rather : prison is the only employment he's qualified fopr

asciilifeform: shinohai: link seems to refer to the satellite thing in present tense. it is live ?

mircea_popescu: lol

mircea_popescu: you don't understand how wediditreddit works.

mircea_popescu: but to summarize : words are slowly fuzzed in the desired emotional direction.

shinohai: First you get out the crayons and build the prototype, then .....

mircea_popescu: present tense is merely a political requirement in the vein of "subway hero must be not white"

shinohai: "Go to the #blockstream-satellite IRC channel on freenode for additional help."

shinohai: >.>

mircea_popescu: oookay.

asciilifeform: https://www.blockstream.com/satellite/satellite/ ( http://archive.is/XeYBv ) << claims to be live, lists channel freqs

asciilifeform: they purchased time on 4 commercial sats

shinohai looks for an old rtl-sdr ....

mircea_popescu: "<Socal> Ah ok I don't know about FIBRE I was simply speaking on the SATCOM portion"

mircea_popescu: you know ? the SATCOM!!!!! portion

asciilifeform: incidentally, is archive.is dead ?

mircea_popescu: motherfucking imbecile nothings omfg

asciilifeform: 2nd day of eternal '#1 in queue' crud

mircea_popescu: "look mom, i'm just like the nigger on tv! talking of the satcom portion!! would you like to hear more meaningless words ???"

shinohai: 12:27:29 Socal Mircea_popescu no it isn't it saves on bandwidth costs and doesn't require internet to get the BTC blockchain

mircea_popescu: they're so fucking stupid their continued existence is an insult to humanity.

mircea_popescu: "it doesn't require internet".

mircea_popescu: and the fucking littoral compressed lulzship doesn't require wheels.

mircea_popescu: cuz that's what the fucking wheel is, a REQUIREMENT. like totally optional.

asciilifeform: in so far as publicity stunts go, this isn't even preposterously expensive -- anyone can rent a MHz or so of channel

shinohai: Cuz .... it's pykrete!

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't care about the fucking shrems involved. we know they're smegma.

mircea_popescu: i'm tal;king of the nobodies on a stick herp0derping importantly

mircea_popescu: the chumps. do you have any FUCKING IDEA how chumpy the esltarded chumps are ?!

mircea_popescu: because i don't. it's eaten >9k fathoms of cable and we plumbed no bottom yet.

mod6: this primorial thing is gonna run for a while eh

mircea_popescu: no ?

mod6: maybe i misunderstand the request.

mircea_popescu: it's a minute, what. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mod6: P = primorial(N) for some N such that P < 2**4096 .

mod6: just one number?

asciilifeform: aha

mod6: i thought it was 1*2*3*5*7*11*13 ... all the way up through whatever prime fits into < 4160 bits.

asciilifeform: mod6: we dun have enuff universe for that

asciilifeform: ( timewise or spacewise )

mod6: im not sure i know how to code this.

asciilifeform: mod6: amusingly, if you ~did~ have a big enough and old enough universe to contain primorial(2**4096), you could factor, e.g., mircea_popescu's key, in polynomial time, with plain old gcd

asciilifeform: shinohai: rtlsdr won't work, it dun go to 12GHz

asciilifeform: or i suppose it would, if you have the guts from old tv sat dish

asciilifeform: asciilifeform in fact has ~several~ dishes , from old renters of the grounds, but can't be arsed

mircea_popescu: so it turns out, i never heard of gut tb because you generally need aids to get it. and back when i was reading they didn't have aids just yet.

asciilifeform: !~later tell mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/au9GU/?raw=true << another formulation.

jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.

shinohai: 13:40:00 @gmaxwell (also for sending out transactions people can use many other options, including SMS and snail mail--- a txn is so small you can just communicate it however else you communicate. Snail mail is slow, but if you're only communicating with the outside world via that already...)

shinohai: Dear lord

asciilifeform: shinohai: anything, anything to make that Golden Socialist Future full of nonterrorist blocks made of nonterrorist tx...

asciilifeform: !!up PeterL

deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.

PeterL: thanks!

PeterL: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZI0Qx/?raw=true << reverse mpfhf hash function, given R, S, and length of message

PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698240 << about a minute to write function, about 40 ms to evaluate ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 16:36 mircea_popescu: it's a minute, what.

mod6: PeterL: huh

PeterL: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1DId9/?raw=true << my function, by the way

asciilifeform: omfg PeterL what is that primality test

asciilifeform: looks very painful.

PeterL: it's a basic brute force primality test, what is wrong with it?

PeterL: works fine for small numbers

shinohai: !!up PeterL

deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.

lobbes: Interesting seeing teh different approaches. Instead of primality test, I just iterated through a static list/array of primes (I figure that list ain't changing anytime soon). Here's my potato code: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/X0jSt/?raw=true ☟︎

asciilifeform: lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial ☟︎

lobbes: Makes sense

asciilifeform: see also the thread with mod6 re the q of 'what is a readable proggy'

asciilifeform: or for that matter the one 2yrs ago re the hypothetical tabs-an'-spaces vpatches and 'what determines effort needed to read'

asciilifeform: not that lists of primes ain't handy -- but that the effort needed to verify one is >= to what is needed to generate same. ergo why not generate.

lobbes: True. Plus if someday I need a bigger list, then I gotta go editing hardcoded lists vs just flipping a parameter somewhere

lobbes: And yeah, horrible to read to boot ☟︎

PeterL: try this: print a list of the primes up to 100 or 1000, remove one at random, then try to spot which is missing just by looking at the list

asciilifeform: imho life is too short to use 'eyeball diff'.

PeterL: right

asciilifeform: !!up PeterL

deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.

asciilifeform: !!up valica

deedbot: valica voiced for 30 minutes.

asciilifeform: valica: who goes ?

mod6: using PeterL's method, i get the same number with openssl

mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6Un27/?raw=true

mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/FsDgf/?raw=true

asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/#comment-122630 << in other lulz

asciilifeform: reads, interestingly, very much like the gut tuberculosis thing

asciilifeform: i.e. 'this dun happen to folx with a working immune system'

mod6: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/au9GU/?raw=true << another formulation. << thanks for posting anyway

asciilifeform: mod6: the three snippets are a pretty good, imho, intro course to 'you can have a useful, statically-compiled lang without promiscuous pointers'

mod6: yeah man. solid job.

BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all

jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4063.93, vol: 25410.14161658 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4052.4, vol: 61518.92666876 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4156.549995, vol: 27942.40520000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4089.994, vol: 13752.7880282 | Volume-weighted last average: 4081.32302404

asciilifeform: pretty serious goxlag, too

asciilifeform: !~goxlag

jhvh1: asciilifeform: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.

BingoBoingo: 4srs

asciilifeform: damn.

asciilifeform: imho oughta be reintroduced, this useful command.

mircea_popescu: loller

mircea_popescu: o hey peterl got teh mpfhf reverser done.

ben_vulpes: noice

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/where-the-fuck-is-everyone/ << Trilema - Where THE FUCK!!! is everyone ?

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698272 << whole fucking point in such applications is diversity of approach. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 18:44 lobbes: Interesting seeing teh different approaches. Instead of primality test, I just iterated through a static list/array of primes (I figure that list ain't changing anytime soon). Here's my potato code: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/X0jSt/?raw=true

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698273 << verification happens through coherence. if one man writes one program to do one calculation, that man must check that a) his implementation is correct and b) his design actually does take from input to output if correctly implemented. if however the lordship writes a dozen+ programs to do the same calculation, no one man needs to verify either a or b for his own item UNLESS there's ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 18:45 asciilifeform: lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial

mircea_popescu: divergence. and if there is divergence, there is significant educational benefit in it, as seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698143 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 06:00 ben_vulpes: what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of?

mircea_popescu: in other words, the republican model significantly reduces costs and, incredibly enough, introduces a new revenue stream.

mircea_popescu: these premises are dependent however on diversity of implementation. (remarkably, they are not dependent on correctness of implementation ; but they are dependent on correctness of treatment of divergence, ie, no "consensus-building", ever, at all)

mod6: In that case, I have a bit more simplified version of mine that more closely resembles what I started with before.

mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qRtdC/?raw=true

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698279 << it has the significant advantage that it bridges into unrelated record. if your result diverges from the result, you now have a grounded suspicion re the source of whatever list you used. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 18:50 lobbes: And yeah, horrible to read to boot

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall what dijkstra said ?

asciilifeform: re what testing can and cannot reveal

asciilifeform: let's play a little game : http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/En1cj/?raw=true

asciilifeform: ^ is a slightly modified version of what lobbes posted. it gives the correct answer, even

asciilifeform: but if you were to use its list of primes for some other program...

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you proposing what exactly, that out of an array of ineffectual methods we're to choose one and stick to it ?

asciilifeform: nope

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's observation was correct.

asciilifeform: but imho incomplete.

mircea_popescu: testing only reveals the presence of errors, not their absence. sure. and guess what ? reading code with human eyes, also. and so on.

mircea_popescu: once you found the misspelling you found it and ere you found it the text was just as correctly spelled as it will be after you find it : "as far as i know, correctly spelled"

asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's ( and probably everyone else's... ) experience, the most lethal bugs are ones which produce ~correct~ answer, ~all of the time

asciilifeform: but via incorrect method.

mircea_popescu: the important difference is that this was not reusable but throwaway code. the requirement was "calculater result" not "write program"

mircea_popescu: this changes things.

asciilifeform: this is true. but my original point was that it is impossible to verify the correctness of a list of primes other than by same procedure as generates one.

mircea_popescu: it's certainly possible. i know the list "3, 5, 7, 11" is a list of primes through memory.

asciilifeform: 'bro do you lift!11' 'hey i lifted myself off the bed today!'

phf: could have a monk of saint ascii life form memorize primes by heart to the 1'000'000th one, referred to by the other monks when primes are required. "please, brother joseph, we need primes #5002 to #5040"

asciilifeform: lol

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you said impossible. it means something.

mircea_popescu: there's no "sporting chance" rules in logic, if your theory is defeated by trivial case your theory is still defeated.

asciilifeform: i bet mircea_popescu had a riot reading russel & whitehead , 'idjits, taking 1500 pgs to prove 1+1=2, which i know to be so'

mircea_popescu: mno.

mircea_popescu: but i would have thrown frege against a wall had he "impossible" something i oculd trivially disprove.

mircea_popescu: which is why i read frege, and i don't read obama.

asciilifeform: recalling correct answer from memory != solving .

mircea_popescu: this is fucking important. managing to go through 500 pages of highly contrived nonsense without flyiong out of my hand, not for everybody.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you said impossible by any other method.

asciilifeform straps on gas mask

mircea_popescu: maybe try strapping that thing off sometime. im startying to suspect "gas canister" doesn't say what you thought it said!

asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, imho a program which weighs more than its output, has a fundamental problem

mircea_popescu: plenty of programs output a boolean.

asciilifeform: tru ( and i linked an rsa-to-nsat generator thing earlier today )

asciilifeform: which, lulzily, refuses to eat anything above 2048-bit modulus

asciilifeform: ( why? i have nfi )

mircea_popescu: prolly munitions bs.

asciilifeform: pretty sure that one's stuck at 512 to this day

asciilifeform: ( not updated since clinton reign )

mircea_popescu: anyway, ima try and pen a pre-rfc on tmsr-rsa, unless anyone has objections ?

asciilifeform: didn't mircea_popescu make one in 2014 ?

asciilifeform: the one where 'just store the fucking modulus and exponent'

mircea_popescu: yeah, well, it's been a while.

mircea_popescu: which one are you thinking of ?

asciilifeform digs for link...

mircea_popescu: there's been too much waffling re keys on my part (which means -- any). i feel bad about it an' i perceive gotta write up

mod6: I think it's fine, we can ratify / ammend it as needed I suppose.

mircea_popescu: mod6 yeah. more like a scratchpad than anything yet.

asciilifeform: hm where did it go !

asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu's original rsa piece )

mircea_popescu: dja mean the early gossip talk ?

asciilifeform: no

asciilifeform: the trilema on 'republican rsa key format'

mircea_popescu: you mean the k,e,N thing ?

asciilifeform: aha

asciilifeform: for my part, i'm curious re what part of rsa mircea_popescu thinks even needs to be standardized

mircea_popescu: pretty much logs only i thought

asciilifeform: ( i dun see any reason for a standard exponent, for instance. let it be a W-wide prime , different for each man )

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform plenty of things, gimme a moment here.

asciilifeform: and no moar pissant smallint exponents, either. let it weigh as much as the modulus.

asciilifeform: no moar 'we heathens have faster rsa because mother dropped us as babies and our rsatron does different work on different hamming weights'

mircea_popescu: see ?

asciilifeform: which

asciilifeform: asciilifeform's intent with 'p' is to push in the direction of maximum barking anarchy re pubkeys. as it is we have too many 'standards' as it is, ~all of them ill-conceived and smelling of sulfur.

asciilifeform: and this also means as few 'magic numbers' as it is physically possible to get away with. ☟︎

asciilifeform: and this yes means that asciilifeform holds caps on modulus width to be asinine

asciilifeform: p proggy opens up with the breathoflife preamble, e.g., (TMSR!8192*3,50*500) << 8192bit bus, 3 words of stack, 50 bytes of program following the closing ), 500 steps of execution max.

asciilifeform: this means that the reader (READER, long before executing) knows precisely how much time and space the proggy requires.

asciilifeform: so he can never be surprised by 'd00d's modulus is Too Big!111omfg'

asciilifeform: if i specify a pubkey for myself with 65536-bit public mod, then other people can simply decide that i'm an arse and that verifying my sigs isn't actually +ev for them

asciilifeform: it is a matter strictly between the fella generating the key, and his wot, not for the author of rsatron.

asciilifeform: the duty of the rsatron author is ~to get the fuck out of the way~

asciilifeform: in that spirit, other thing asciilifeform aims for with 'p', is to zap the idiocy where pubkey was strictly an item for ~machine~ to read, and make it something primarily for ~man~ to read.

asciilifeform: ( while also operable on by machine, to demonstrate that the arithmetic in fact comes out as stated )

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/

asciilifeform: oh hey

mircea_popescu: mod6 ^

mircea_popescu: first question, of course, being whether there's value in changing the spec for key primes from "2048" to ">2046" bits.

asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/#comment-122644 << 1st nitpick!1111

asciilifeform: likewise we had the fingerprint thread ☟︎

asciilifeform: fingerprints are fundamentally retarded

asciilifeform: no moar fingerprints. your key is your key.

asciilifeform: no hash --- no collision, floating around somewhere in phase space waiting to be found.

mircea_popescu: you want to actually forbid them ?

asciilifeform: see asciilifeform's earlier barf: not so interested in forbidding anything

asciilifeform: but in not-standardizing.

mircea_popescu: so then what's teh problem.

asciilifeform: if some d00d wants to go around saying 'my pubkey can also be referred to by the letter z' that's his life to lose.

mircea_popescu: um. you either standardize them to null, standardize them to something sane, or allow the empire to standardize them to something idiotic. this is your trilemma.

mircea_popescu: no way out of it.

mircea_popescu: i opted for 2.

asciilifeform: i dun see this picture, where we GOTTA take a shit into this here fine vase, 'or empire will'

asciilifeform: how about an unshat-in vase.

BingoBoingo: But vase shit has phosphorous, for the flowahs!

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-01#1664352 << see also thread ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-01 18:14 asciilifeform: a business card printed on a very spartan (100 'dpi' ) press , gives what, 350 x 200 b&w pixels ;

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590895 , and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-09#1640824 discussions also. ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 05:27 asciilifeform: the only sane 'fingerprint' is the entire modulus+exponent.

a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, the more i think about it the more i'm convinced the ONLY "fingerprint" for rsa key may be... the modulus. 4096 bits and fuck you, if you can't take 32 chars you don't belong here.

mircea_popescu: this is not altogether a weak argument. consider the converse though : suppose i wish to refer to my key by using fewer chars than 512 ?

asciilifeform: this is fundamentally bad idea imho.

asciilifeform: and there is no escape.

mircea_popescu: i mean, i call out "hey, slut" and a dozen eyes rise. these are collisions, and what of it.

asciilifeform: it's like asking for a 17 that can also be referred to as 3.

mircea_popescu: but it's how life goes.

asciilifeform: shitting where one stands is also 'how life goes'. for some.

asciilifeform: for others, no.

mircea_popescu: consider : we often use [very!] short forms of ideas in here, and rely on the op to correctly resolve.

mircea_popescu: it's cheaper this way than to inline everything.

asciilifeform: whole point of cryptosig is not-this.

asciilifeform: to nail down the unambiguous and concrete.

mircea_popescu: but TO HAVE. when needed. not to always.

mircea_popescu: i don't carry around all my rifles all the time, to take a leak, etc. i can't.

asciilifeform: non-1-to-1 pubkey is as useful as pistol that fires from both ends.

mircea_popescu: ie, outer space pistol ?

asciilifeform: yes i can think of a contrieved situation that calls for one. but no i don't want it in the rack next to the ordinary ones.

mircea_popescu: (stability.)

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was thinking of the aerial gun in ww1, before they figured out that the stuff on the nonbusiness end dun have to be same bullet, only same mass

asciilifeform: but sure.

mircea_popescu: to be sure, i don't think you're making a weak case. im leaving the matter open, at least for a while, can you live with that ?

asciilifeform: sure

mircea_popescu: now to the graver matter of mpfhf. http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/#comment-122645

asciilifeform: asciilifeform's ~whole argument is 'leave as much rsa a matter for pubkey maker as physically possible'

mircea_popescu: dja want to take it out altogether ?

asciilifeform: well either it, or the constant-spacetime. and i'm quite sold on keeping the latter.

asciilifeform: but i dun see how they can live together

asciilifeform: am i missing something?

mircea_popescu: oaep won;t constant spacetime either.

asciilifeform: why not ?

asciilifeform: it's just a buncha xors

asciilifeform: O(1)

mircea_popescu: xor(R)

mircea_popescu: hm.

mircea_popescu: yeah, it gotta go huh.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gone.

asciilifeform: lol just when i thought up of a hypothetical way to save it!111

mircea_popescu: the 1and0 thing ?

asciilifeform: consider :

mircea_popescu: tbh, i'd very much like to have an alternative there. i put in and took out the thing twice before announcing, this is the third.

asciilifeform: P proggy specifies its time and space requirement , first thing

mircea_popescu: it dun have to be mpfhf so much as i'd like a GOOD alt.

asciilifeform: this means that anything that can happen inside one, happens in fixed time and space

mircea_popescu: ok.

asciilifeform: ~after~ a mphf (or similar) hash is taken, the time and space required are known.

asciilifeform: bang, magic, fixed-time-and-space.

mircea_popescu: uh ?

mircea_popescu: mpfhf varies.

asciilifeform: yes but after you've calculated one particular hash, it won't vary...

asciilifeform: you know ~that one~'s time and space size.

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/ << Trilema - TMSR-RSA spec, extremely early draft

mircea_popescu: yes, but you'd have to have writer-with-padder on your isolated machine, move pre-padded shit to the fire machine.

asciilifeform: correct.

mircea_popescu: you can do that without me speccing it.

asciilifeform: aha!

mircea_popescu: so not saved.

asciilifeform: hm.

mircea_popescu: the ONE way to constant-mpfhf is to calculate ALL the tree of possibilities, 2^message length items EVERY TIME

mircea_popescu: this is so necessarily, as a converse statement of its strength.

asciilifeform: oh hm waitasec

asciilifeform: didn't i derive a bounding function for it...

mircea_popescu: it's bound yes.

mircea_popescu: by m bit size.

mircea_popescu: (by design!!11)

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-06#1679487 << thread, iirc ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-06 00:28 mircea_popescu: anyway, yes. bound.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you proposing to simply "take" bound time every time ? cuz i dunno this can bew done irl.

asciilifeform: if it always terminates, then yes

asciilifeform: i dun see how not.

asciilifeform: (i.e. if you, yourself, already computed H(x), then you know how many turns of the crank it took. and can pass that number along.)

mircea_popescu: yes it always terminates.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and what do you do, sleep(rest) lol

asciilifeform: why naturally you gave me a 9000 steps, and that's a, e.g., (TMSR!8192*3,50*9000)......

asciilifeform: and 9000 steps later, answer.

asciilifeform: and not 8999, and not 9001.

mircea_popescu: i dun follow.

mircea_popescu: so, message M takes 105 bits and 114 steps. message M' takes 107 bits and 119 steps. message M'' takes 103 bits and 115 steps.

mircea_popescu: now what ?

mircea_popescu: (they're all 12 letter words say).

asciilifeform: was more of a philosophical observation : that mphf is not turing-complete ( in the same way 'p' is not. deliberately )

mircea_popescu: yes. but it DOES fork on secret bits all the time.

asciilifeform: and thereby any ~particular~ invocation, can be called bounded.

mircea_popescu: in fact -- thart's all it does.

asciilifeform: it sure does.

asciilifeform: lolyes

mircea_popescu: so unless you're willing to do ALL the alternatives every time, you won't have "true" constantttime.

asciilifeform: theoretically you can make it not.

mircea_popescu: how ?

asciilifeform: by not actually doing the flip-whole-thing bit

asciilifeform: but instead flipping a single bit that gets xored with the result every time you read from the would-have-been-flipped reg. ☟︎

asciilifeform: iirc i mentioned this to phf here.

mircea_popescu: hmm

asciilifeform: ( as optimization )

mircea_popescu: cuz it'd be either 1 or 0 huh

asciilifeform: aha.

mircea_popescu: this is an interesting point.

asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-04#1679049 was the other . ) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-04 14:12 asciilifeform: one hint -- look at 'screw' as a modular congruence

mircea_popescu: constant-time MPFHF is now an open question for teh interested. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: !~later tell peterl in case you were looking for more obscure fhf shit to do : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698518 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 22:52 mircea_popescu: constant-time MPFHF is now an open question for teh interested.

jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.

asciilifeform: of course, arguably if you can actually DO this, you will probably lose interest in the mphf method per se

mircea_popescu: maybe.

mircea_popescu: anyway. other than the above "can constantify mpfhf ?" question, also open is the matter of alternative padding. currently all we have is oaep.

mircea_popescu: !!up r0nin-

deedbot: r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.

r0nin-: hi mircea

asciilifeform: who might you be, r0nin- ?

mircea_popescu: im guessing a medieval samurai ?

r0nin-: im a nobody

r0nin-: just occasional reader of trilema for amusement

mircea_popescu: aite.

asciilifeform: r0nin-: would you like to become.. a somebody?

r0nin-: no

asciilifeform: r0nin-: consider making a key?

asciilifeform: aite.

mircea_popescu: somebodyhood is overrated eh ?

r0nin-: http://trilema.com/2017/where-the-fuck-is-everyone/

asciilifeform: evidently!

r0nin-: is there a link to this youtube elsehwere?

r0nin-: shit is blocked in my area

mircea_popescu: jaysus

asciilifeform: r0nin-: out of curiosity, where ? china ?

r0nin-: poland

r0nin-: every fucking nazi thing gets banned

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ? << Hey, people are selling "DON'T BE SOMEBODY!!!" now <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ?

mircea_popescu: r0nin- it was in the logs, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697556 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 15:12 asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzZb6kfctEU << 'my father would spin like a dreidel in his grave if he saw'

asciilifeform: betcha you played wolfenstein without the swasticas , with green blood, too..

mircea_popescu: r0nin- so get a you know, alt-ip

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ? << Hey, people are selling "DON'T BE SOMEBODY!!!" now >> http://www.returnofkings.com/125632/the-influence-curve

asciilifeform: r0nin-: dun go away, i'ma make a mirror just for ya

r0nin-: lol the faggot commenting on the video

r0nin-: i got it going

mircea_popescu: twist : voiceover was by alf all along!

mircea_popescu: fishbirding or w/e it's called!

asciilifeform: r0nin-: ok

asciilifeform: lol

BingoBoingo: Fishwiving? Birddogging? Doggystyling?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that was a riotously terrifyingly stupid piece...

asciilifeform: ( the 'influence' thing )

mircea_popescu: will you summarize ? i dun intend to read it.

asciilifeform: http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/influence-vs-enemy1.jpg << summary

mircea_popescu: mmkay.

asciilifeform: 'nail that sticks up is hammered down' or how it went.

asciilifeform: snoaromatic

mircea_popescu: is these for people who actually give a shit re pantsuit or what.

asciilifeform: aha, for whom else

mircea_popescu: i totally should translate that "chinese dissident" article sometime.

asciilifeform: and as always reader is presumed to count

asciilifeform: iirc you did translate

mircea_popescu: ah ? ok then

asciilifeform: the one where 'come to moma's cunt ir we'll give yer wife anabortion every day'

mircea_popescu: aha!

asciilifeform: or maybe i read it in ro, i faghet

mircea_popescu: "whether she needs one or not"

asciilifeform: aha!!

mircea_popescu: was pretty good in ro, i thought.

mircea_popescu: aaanyway. everyone's a mathematician and everyone's a warrior nao ?

mircea_popescu: what else are these halfwits born-ready for ? besides "everything" i mean./

asciilifeform: dun forget, generals also

asciilifeform: and what else.

mircea_popescu: fucking walking, talking stem cells on two legs.

asciilifeform sings 'modern major general'

mod6: ~<+mircea_popescu> asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/ << ah, thanks!

mod6 reads scrollback

mircea_popescu: mah pleasure

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/cine-se-casatoreste/ << original.

mircea_popescu: dun seem to be an en variant and yet i vaguely recall one. ☟︎