log☇︎
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asciilifeform: it was designed, and works. to spec.
mircea_popescu: "Slave reads were allowed for performance reasons" << check it out, apparently it's in the sql spec after all. even on mondoshit >D
Reuel: mircea_popescu is there a spec for the bot you mentioned
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606714 << was briefly discussed at the time ; if you recall the spec wasn't for centralization. ☝︎
asciilifeform: (naturally it would be approx. as useless as alchemy would have been, had it worked to spec, and much more quickly so)
asciilifeform: mod6: scheme is neat on paper (~50 pg. exhaustive spec! at least before the poetterings got to it in rev. 6) but you will find that it is ~impossible to program in the language that appears in that document
mircea_popescu: and i see no problem with any other or only other services be used - which iirc i even said when bot spec for archival was drawn, that everyone making one should ideally use a diff service
mircea_popescu: (of course as far as the spec goes, the bot saves archive.is + base64 blobs of all pages, so there is that, as inconvenient as it is)
ben_vulpes: is there any sort of spec for "what difftron entails"?
mircea_popescu: so then use that. as the spec says, m.t specifically left unspecified.
mircea_popescu: i don't think today's logic does anything ; and i don't expect carrying it forward is useful. spec does include room for trb.n to do some banning, including on the basis of passively exfiltrated data from trb.b. that a protocol for this purpose may later develop i don't dispute, but it's not included both because it's not needed and because it can't become a "dependency". it's not.
mircea_popescu: do you read the spec or just sit there and dream a little dream ?
mircea_popescu: davout no he's saying it's not in the sql spec! which, considering how specwork goes, he might be even right about some version.
mircea_popescu: 1) shared_buffers is to be per spec "25% of available ram" ; but it does diminish returns in the gb. you probably have it as 128mb, make it 2gb say.
phf: ben_vulpes: well, we're kind of constrained by the hardcode -p1 behavior, but i've no idea if that's an implementation detail or a spec
mircea_popescu: check that out, there's no actual fips 180 past 1 published online. because why the fuck would there be. anyway, i can't source this "The SHA512/384 spec says that the final bit length of the message is to be stored as a 128-bit (!) integer at the end of the message." assertion. as best it can be determined the blocks are either 512 (for sanity) or 1024 bits (for 384 hmac etc)
asciilifeform: sorta like 'hang by the neck until dead' spec.
phf: i guess the multiple keys idea was already introduced in gossipd (in the original spec i suspect it was a solution to "no automatic RSA-ing" problem)
phf: mircea_popescu: csail (mit ai lab then) published "ai memos" from 1959 to sometime in early 2000s where they described a lot of "firsts" in computing in general. scheme spec was published by sussman and steele, lisp 1.5 compiler (first "self-hosting"), lisp machine architecture, etc. most papers are not so much ai as computing in general.
mircea_popescu: so i'ma just wait here for you to p, and comment thar rather than try and spec a tmsr-rsa-clearsign ?
adlai: although i may be understanding the spec incorrectly
phf: neither current wot nor gossipd spec wot have the history component, because if you go by "there's no rating outside of rater" past ratings make absolutely no difference.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc we had a spec for sane log that went along the lines of separations like discussed
mircea_popescu goes digging for that rsa key spec...
mircea_popescu: is nary a spec in this history and soon forgotten like bell bottoms and whatever other fashionable nonsense. 80s hair and 1790s sociopolitics.
asciilifeform: reminds me of this spec i have for antigrav car. just needs the antigravitron box and you're good to fly.
mircea_popescu: it being a spec, it didn't contain an implementation, no.
mircea_popescu: eventually we'll have a full spec, at which point we'll be forking anyway.
asciilifeform: imho spec was quite spiffy but did not contain sufficient ddt against insects, e.g, pools remain possible.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:48 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 21:48 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us ☝︎☟︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
phf: well, mcclim layers things in a way that i thought was part of the spec, but turns out it was beach's decision (to among other things support multiple different backends). when i was trying to optimize the x11 backend last time, i was hitting multiple "independent" layers, that all demanded attention. there wasn't really an 80/20 solution, which made me conclude that there's not a single subtrate that you can optimize (the way, say,
phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect ☟︎☟︎
BingoBoingo: And definitely too far out of spec for bottled "single barrel" origin product.
BingoBoingo: Likely barrel were to far out of spec for blending into standard 20-30/bottle product so "exclusive" label attached.
mircea_popescu: adlai a) you don't get to call a spec leaky. if it's not clear what's going on to you, it's probably because you are dumb, not because the going on is broken.
adlai: http://trilema.com/2016/trilema-bot-spec/#selection-41.75-41.130 << still a tad ambiguous, arguably a less leaky spec would give a ratio of command:response lengthsn
mircea_popescu: trinque he has a serious issue with things that i don't yet fully grok, but i can not presently distinguish from this irrational meltdown and the irrational meltdown on the gossipd spec.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/10/after-recent-leak-north-sea-lubricated-to-spec-per-bps-assessment/ << Qntra - After Recent Leak North Sea Lubricated To Spec Per BP's Assessment
asciilifeform: at any rate, the linked ad is somewhat misleading, reactors were not then and are not now delivered whole like lathe etc., but rather built on-spec like church organs.
mircea_popescu: ah also : re "encryption" : we CAN use the eliza involved in gossipd spec (anyone actually did this or just some quick napkin work and then forgot about ?) to eliza the actual emissions.
asciilifeform: ( https://github.com/1984not-GmbH/molch rather, above is 'spec')
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/eulora-tradebot-spec/ << Trilema - Eulora tradebot spec
Framedragger: phf: is that spec available online somewhere (or, keywords) by any chance? curious to take a peek at some point.. is it published by symbolics?
phf: in related news i finally read genera's defsystem spec and not only does it ~makes sense~ it's also obvious that first takes on c-land defsystems was a pale imitation of original functionality, i.e. слышит звон но не знает где он
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski move it as per teh spec.
asciilifeform: spec, as usual, 'is willing' while 'the flesh is weak'
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160914/#192 << note that the spec doesn't mention a particular one, neither in log or on trilema.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: understand and agree. it's worth to have it be pointed out in the comments if only so that someone doesn't start assuming that the spec implicitly provides guarantees of uniqueness etc. and good to have a picture of the madness and lack of guarantee anyway. but i guess you're right
Framedragger: heh possibru! and in other news scriba complies with the mighty bot spec (restarting)
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/trilema-bot-spec/ << Trilema - #trilema bot spec
mircea_popescu: an' bot spec published, lemme know
pete_dushenski: reading all the spec chatter in the logs, it's worth linking the mega-thread on the same topic from june (via levitan) : http://www.contravex.com/2016/06/15/a-brief-discourse-on-specification/
mircea_popescu: most people approach spec work as a positive endeavour ; which is why mine read so bewildering at first.
mircea_popescu: large part of spec's job is exactly in the negative. a good spec allows me to construct a complete negative of the item. this is much more important than commonly realised
mircea_popescu: i said "i can specify X" not "X is the spec for X"
asciilifeform: is 'tasty' a spec for food ?
mircea_popescu: no, it's the title of a spec.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's a spec ?!
mircea_popescu: the part where you can spec things that don't actually fit in head. for instance, i can specify "a good fuck", or "an acceptably behaved slut" or "a boring housewife"
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-13: [17:51:53] <asciilifeform> the reason why we ~have~ spec-by-program is because it is the only actual alternative to fits-in-head.
mircea_popescu: i suppose effort to bridge the gap has been made, perhaps most notably the "literate code" thing, but still. spec is not code ; code is not spec.
asciilifeform: the fundamental mistake of 'spec by gcc' is to consider a large computer program as an ideal object.
asciilifeform: the reason why we ~have~ spec-by-program is because it is the only actual alternative to fits-in-head.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-13: [15:28:28] <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu et al : http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-119069 << proposed 'lighthoused' spec
a111: Logged on 2016-09-13 16:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160913/#225 << if you think that is what spec looks like you must be new here!
mircea_popescu: much like a definition of an apple is not an apple ; just so a spec is not a program.
mircea_popescu: maybe ; but a spec is not defined as "can mechanically be transformed into a working program".
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-13: [15:28:28] <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu et al : http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-119069 << proposed 'lighthoused' spec
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160913/#225 << if you think that is what spec looks like you must be new here! ☟︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al : http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-119069 << proposed 'lighthoused' spec
a111: Logged on 2016-09-13 08:11 mircea_popescu: trinque asciilifeform & everyone : without detracting from the more important gossipd spec work, im thinking of making a bot spec. it'd require bots to answer in pm to help, help json and help sexpr. comments/ideas ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-13#1540897 << sounds like a ~complete spec right here where it stands ☝︎
shinohai: mircea_popescu: a bot spec would help clarify things, yes
mircea_popescu: trinque asciilifeform & everyone : without detracting from the more important gossipd spec work, im thinking of making a bot spec. it'd require bots to answer in pm to help, help json and help sexpr. comments/ideas ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you should prolly write a lighthouse thingamajig spec and ping trilema.
mircea_popescu is very happy he sat down to try and pin down that spec.
mircea_popescu: once we have some sort of acceptabru spec all sorts of prototyping work can begin
mircea_popescu: trinque i know i brought this on myself, but an unsubscribe will be useful so i don't get everything on gossipd spec twice lol
mircea_popescu: moreover nothing prevents emergent/de facto specs. the job of the gossipd spec is to keep people from doing world-breaking idiotic stuff. how they handle their own wives is their own problem.
Framedragger: topic-based publish/subscribe has been sorta well researched, but i guess this problem is on another 'layer': gossipd document would leave this for 'implementation'. even though it may not be trivial at all, to make decisions regarding such matters, choose best spec, or design it from ground zero. but of course makes sense to discuss the foundations first
mircea_popescu: kinda why i'm reading through this spec ben_vulpes dug up.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538451 << it's good you acknowledge that, 'cause very time i want to point out "where's your $spec for $x guyz" i feel kinda shit 'cause i should do more, myself. which is a point. and yet the scandalocity remains! ☝︎
phf: (that idea is actually introduced in original gossip spec, but it's not obvious without rereading relevant bits a few times that it allows you to have secondary key
phf: we had a thread about it two weeks ago, where the conclusion was that gossipd as written in the only available spec has all kinds of problems and shouldn't be implemented/used
mod6: i'd have to dig it up, but i thought there was a trilema that outlined the 'spec' back a while ago.
mircea_popescu: come to think of it, is there such a thing as a gossipd spec even ? what's the current canonical version ?
mod6: but, maybe the first step, to recognize Framedragger, is to update the spec. there has been much discussion about this, and maybe I'm having a hard time keeping all of the details in my head.
Framedragger: [like, *of course* the only reason we want a spec which allows for data in initial syn packet is for shitphones to be able to load google ads quicker. use for security???! nowai]
Framedragger: and gossipd without any auth whatsoever wouldn't really be that? in all honesty, i should reread the spec, which is probably outdated, and log search sucks, fml
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 21:44 gabriel_laddel: I'm translating the spec from HTML to CLIM.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 21:58 mircea_popescu: wait, the clim authoritative spec exists as a html ?!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537772 << before clim, common lisp's authoritative spec exists as... dead tree. while the version that ~everyone actually works from is html. because no, it is unusable without hyperlinking. >> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front ☝︎
mircea_popescu: wait, the clim authoritative spec exists as a html ?! ☟︎
gabriel_laddel: I'm translating the spec from HTML to CLIM. ☟︎
Framedragger: yeah that i really like. reminds of that bitcoin wallet spec - no non-ascii parts
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: no disagreement there; just pointing out that sometimes small arrangement disagreements still prop up; say, different order of variable initialization (which otherwise bears no actual significance); etc. of course one *could* have a convention spec so precise taht it would include things like "if there is arbitrary order of initialization of $x then default to alphanumerical order".