BingoBoingo: OMG ben_vulpes wrote on Step 9!
ben_vulpes: ;)
BingoBoingo: !~step9
jhvh1: 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595862 << this is a stronger argument than it appears. we may find ourselves in the position where we have to, if not "mine" in the current sense, say what mining should be. in no case can it be "oh, mining, not something we care about". about mining, about any other part.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:16 asciilifeform: but it is a stretch. and does not let you ignite a bitcoin overnight if transported to alpha centauri (or, more likely, earth-with-broken-mainnet)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595871 << in practice this is how it works, and has, for at least 3 years now.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:19 davout: make the miner a separate bin
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595883 << the only reason to even do it is if no protocol is created at all.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:24 asciilifeform: they will require a -- quite complicated -- entirely new protocol
mircea_popescu: the whole point is for them to NOT speak to one another.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how does txtron accept/reject without talking to blockchaintron?
asciilifeform: what am i missing
mircea_popescu: puts into queue. accepts nothing, rejects nothing.
asciilifeform: who eats the queue then ?
mircea_popescu: trb.b
asciilifeform: so they talk! via the queue
asciilifeform: (trb.b, presumably, polls..?)
mircea_popescu: no. one just reads, the other just writes, at all points where they interact. no talking is contemplated, and if this is "a protocol" then it's already given.
asciilifeform: what happens when evilpeer dumps a TB of liquishit into the queue?
mircea_popescu: do you read the spec or just sit there and dream a little dream ?
asciilifeform: i did
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595783☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 20:48 mircea_popescu: in particular N.B should be "older overwrites newer" style ring buffer. of particular concern are situations where the buffer is set shorter than the longest reorg, in which case the node will wedge. TRB.N not accepting blocks with index lower than highest of B.B is for sure not feasible. "how many behind" should be an operator knob.
mircea_popescu: including that part ?
asciilifeform: aha, incl that part.
mircea_popescu: so then what happens ?
asciilifeform: in the tx case, anybody can overwrite legit tx in your buffer by dumping liquishit in.
mircea_popescu: there is no tx. you do not read. what is N.B ?
asciilifeform: candidate-block receiver, neh?
mircea_popescu: so then.
asciilifeform: in the case of candidate-block and candidate-mempooltx queue receiver (from outside the walls), mircea_popescu proposes to throw out even the weak logic for banning obvious crapola that we have today in trb?
asciilifeform: (banning would, as far as i can tell, require 2way comms b/w the modules)
asciilifeform: and whatdoyoumean 'no tx', is the thing contemplated a wholly mempool-less node ?
asciilifeform goes to reread mircea_popescu's scheme
mircea_popescu: i don't think today's logic does anything ; and i don't expect carrying it forward is useful. spec does include room for trb.n to do some banning, including on the basis of passively exfiltrated data from trb.b. that a protocol for this purpose may later develop i don't dispute, but it's not included both because it's not needed and because it can't become a "dependency". it's not.
mircea_popescu: and in other alt-universes, http://68.media.tumblr.com/29a57cee1f8350a5c981f7ec5d318221/tumblr_mqko9plKqo1r7dgcpo8_1280.png
mircea_popescu: and no, not wholly mempool less. there is m.t. what it contains - we care not. when problems will arise, they will be solved without impacting on the core scheme.
mircea_popescu: that being the fundamental point of separation in the first place.
mircea_popescu: (the correct solving scheme is still as i said back when we were discussing mempools, to keep track of peers (yes, by ips) and score them by the fees they bring your mempool. with this change -- that is even implementable.)
asciilifeform: while i like the 'diode' aspect of this scheme, i will say that my public nodes would fall down in about three seconds, and permanently, if the primitive autobanhammer of gaviniferously-symptomatic peers were to be switched off.
asciilifeform: (confirmed, experimentally.)
asciilifeform: perhaps if nothing could possibly land in the queues faster than it can be eaten, this would not be so.
mircea_popescu: you don't have to switch it off ; carry it over.
mircea_popescu: i have no idea how you maintain your mempool atm ; or if it is what you're talking about even, is it ?
asciilifeform: stock trb mempool
mircea_popescu: so then use that. as the spec says, m.t specifically left unspecified.
mircea_popescu: this is what "trb.n inherits network code" means. let it inherit.
asciilifeform: well the old code has ban(...) which instructs 'this datum was a malicious turd and i dun want no moar from that ip'
mircea_popescu: and reads the blockchain to do that ?
asciilifeform: in the case of verifying a block -- it does
mircea_popescu: we were discussing txn and mempool.
asciilifeform: in those, you also need blockchain
mircea_popescu: then no wonder your node falls over.
asciilifeform: (a tx can have valid form in all sense other than being a doublespend, mircea_popescu knows this)
mircea_popescu: i do, but it is also insanity.
mircea_popescu: you cvan not engage in an open ended "i will for all comers do the work of checking one cent txn against a 10 dollar blockchain".
asciilifeform: it is physical reality, and ergo by definition no moar 'insane' than gravity. unless mircea_popescu offers a breakthrough where we can test doublespendity without keeping blockchain around at all
mircea_popescu: to doublespend you have to MINE it. to accept something in mempool, does not mean it has become accepted in blockchain.
mircea_popescu: something like "one txn accepted in mempool per hour per peer" is reasonable.
mircea_popescu: how MUCH verification work i wish to do for the world - is my choice, not the world's.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: here i gotta agree, the 'allcomers can get their tx candidates evaluated' is doomed
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: just like i can't go and offer a candidate tx to swift because i feel like it
mircea_popescu: worked while it worked but on the long term "collegiallity" of this elk is unsustainable.
asciilifeform is a bit more 'doomer' than mircea_popescu on this subj, and does not see a future for 'anyone can send packet to anyone' net in ~general~
mircea_popescu: yes but there's at least a decade between these.
asciilifeform: 1 tx / hr / peer will make for one hell of a turtle relay
mircea_popescu: tough titties, get in people's wots/gossipds.
mircea_popescu: this is a fine avenue of rebalancing the miner/node nonsense.
mircea_popescu: (yes, yes, "prb nodes will outcompete". sure. and reddit/wikipedia/etc outcompete us, totally.)
asciilifeform: seems to me like it might unduly empower miners.
mircea_popescu: how do you reason ?
asciilifeform: if being 1 hop closer to a miner now means an hour less avg. delay.
asciilifeform: instead of a few min.
mircea_popescu: davout your four main pieces are a b and c ?
asciilifeform: waiwat
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nobody forces you to keep the throttle in place for your friends.
asciilifeform: how does your box know who are 'friends'
mircea_popescu: so in my thinking it incentivizes proper behaviour.
mircea_popescu: by ip. yes yes, i know i know.
asciilifeform: you gotta have the crypto auth.
asciilifeform: and RST-idiocy-proof pipe.
asciilifeform: aite, we had thread, i won't repeat
mircea_popescu: these are good-to-have, not dependencies. let the lizzard queen fuck with ips a while first.
asciilifeform: tru
asciilifeform: i like mircea_popescu's scheme, imho it should be written exactly like-so
mircea_popescu: we'll see if we find someone to do it, nao.
mircea_popescu: !!up PUMBLECHOOK
deedbot: PUMBLECHOOK voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: (re the above discussion - one of the B.Ts may well be "cache of txns with unspent outputs" specifically to aid in mempool evaluation. but this is philosophy 102.)
mircea_popescu: (re the above discussion - one of the B.Ts may well be "cache of txns with unspent outputs" specifically to aid in mempool evaluation. but this is philosophy 102.)
mircea_popescu: doh.
mircea_popescu: in other news wow Framedragger your log selection thing is immensely useful for eg leaving comments on davout 's site.
mircea_popescu: who, apparently, still has his doubtsd about me, and moderation-queues mah comments!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595903 << gas pumps for diesel look every year more like dildos, accidentally poured gasoline in diesel engine accidents still occur.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:32 asciilifeform: i'd naively think that this would've been resolved in 1930s, if not earlier, just make the levers vastly different (shapes, or lengths, and feel, etc)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in usa, the ~only way to achieve this 'feat' is to pour into jerrycan first
asciilifeform often wondered why the things can't simply be made threaded, and with variant thread
mircea_popescu: for srs.
mod6: it easy to put unleaded regular gas into a diesel, but not vice-versa. the diesal nozzles are too large for a standard gasoline tube.
asciilifeform: '... and that was how we found that the average policeman is not so smart, but very strong' (from -- iirc -- one of mircea_popescu's articles)
mircea_popescu: and in other news, girl preparing to weigh self, "if it shows me over what i started at ima jump out the window". me, equanimous "wouldn't it be better to jump out window if surprisingly light, than if surprisingly heavy ?'
mod6: know someone this happened to once, apparently diesel was shooting flames of unleaded out of the tailpile, while running like dog-shit (excessive knocking etc).
mod6: *tailpipe
asciilifeform: (possibly davout might have some input) i recently read an american-flavoured thing re pilotage accidents, and it dwelled on 'jp in petrol tank' , insidious condition where the engine ~will~ start but tends to quit ~during takeoff~, guaranteed corpse
asciilifeform: they have clever nozzles now, but there are always mega-heroes who manage to fuel up with entirely wrong liquid
mod6: yeah, actually, now that I think about it, i was told that in this particular case I was talking about, the guy didn't even put in regular unleaded (87 octane), he put in like 110 octane racing fuel.
mod6: lol
mod6: i guess this took place at a refueling stop in the middle of the night.
mod6: asciilifeform: jp = jet fuel?
asciilifeform: aha
mod6: is that the same as the JET-A1 or whatever I sometimes see on the side of tanks?
asciilifeform: it
mod6: aha
asciilifeform: (there are other variants sold, but mostly 'A' on most of the planet)
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/how-to-actually-learn-programming << CH - How to (actually) "learn programming"
mod6: ben_vulpes: fyi, second edition has the red cover, the first edition is the blue cover one.
mircea_popescu: mod6 theoretically cylinders blow.
mod6: yeah, can wreck the thing for sure.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595914 << this is just about it ; the python 3 cancer hasn't eaten through most of that yet. at least afaik.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:35 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: my current (wholly nonexpert) understanding is that airplane DELIBERATELY omits 'hard interlocks' wherever possible, on the principle that not-being-able-to-X-when-you-must is worse than can-X-when-you-mustn't
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595972 << kinda where all those "great future everyone flies plane" threads always die, with mp saying "i wouldn't put that work in if the plane sucked my cock."☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 22:48 davout: asciilifeform: point is piloting a small plane there's just a few things to pay attention to constantly
asciilifeform: d00d dun even drive cars!11
BingoBoingo: Apparently all of a sudden "mesentery is new organ", Leonardo years ago
mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595990 lies! https://niginsblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/07/new-spaceship-speed-in-conways-game-of-life/☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 23:06 asciilifeform: because 'life' automaton tends to settle into quiescent states (bunch of small oscillating 'critters', no real turmoil)
asciilifeform: these and others are neato but for some reason ~never show up unless hand-built
asciilifeform: rather like real-life spacecraft.
mircea_popescu: mostly linked because of the epic announcement, "there may be bugs in gfind"
asciilifeform: https://cp4space.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/is-craig-wright/ << small vintage lulgem from mircea_popescu's link
asciilifeform: (linked mainly for the comments. seriously, wtf)
BingoBoingo: https://i.sli.mg/zJE2z7.jpg << Hamplanetary destination for space ship. Also an eater.
asciilifeform: herr doktor mengele could not even dream , of what welfare state creates 1,001 every day nao.
mircea_popescu: now this is tru
BingoBoingo: I think you mispelled "wellfed state"
trinque: https://www.rt.com/usa/372609-public-decency-boston-law/ << ahahaha, hey mats, let it be known that you can jack it on the subway up there so long as nobody's "shocked" or "alarmed"
trinque: The state’s highest court explained, “the detective was the only eyewitness who testified to the defendant's conduct” and that he was disgusted “after viewing the defendant's exposed penis, not for himself, but rather out of ‘concern’ for the women seated on the bench.”
mircea_popescu: this has been good law for a century +
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595997 << now this!☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 23:09 asciilifeform: and if you can achieve it in a ~discrete~ system, you can get wolfram to drink himself to death, by properly demonstrating 'cellular physics' (tm) (r) where he failed.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency eur
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 999.893604, vol: 8443.50362043 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 984.02502, vol: 257.15036 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 1043.716113, vol: 1914935.90380000 | Kraken BTCEUR last: 1003.108, vol: 8466.09555672 | Volume-weighted last average: 1043.33872246
BingoBoingo: http://www.slackware.com/security/viewer.php?l=slackware-security&y=2016&m=slackware-security.567619
asciilifeform: lel, 512b pgp key?!
BingoBoingo: You know where to stuff it!
mircea_popescu: iot ?
asciilifeform: (btw, trinque et al, here's a bot command idea: #!k (for instance) takes url and looks for pgp keyblocks or sigs or any other pgptronic object from which a key bitness , fp, or other interesting attribute can be pgpdump'd, and prints same in log)
mircea_popescu: how is it supposed to do this ?!
asciilifeform: pgpdump -i
asciilifeform: curl http://foo | pgpdump -i | .... to be 'precise'.
mircea_popescu: this is so horribly stated. so what you want is, for trinque or you, these being the only "et al" curtrently keeping pgp data ; to implement a search through it by random string ?
asciilifeform: nope
asciilifeform: a 'this www has apparent pgp signature, let's see whose, and for the record', was the idea.
asciilifeform: probably not all that useful unless part of archive bot.
mircea_popescu: you want it to go through a www page, find all signature blocks, and identify it as a fingerprint then ?
asciilifeform: and nobody needs to 'search by random string', phuctor eats fp.
mircea_popescu: "this page contains signatures from x y z " with links to phuctor pages ?
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: practical?
mircea_popescu: you ~could say that~ you know. what you actually said was like, gosh jolly.
mircea_popescu: yeah it's actually not even a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: possibru shinohai feels like adding whistles to jhvh1 ?
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596139 << fixed, ty☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 03:14 mod6: ben_vulpes: fyi, second edition has the red cover, the first edition is the blue cover one.
ben_vulpes: these episode 2 crickets are unsettling, perhaps i need to write more things for people to disagree with
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the blue-cover crapola thing is technically a different b00k
asciilifeform: that s. peddled as a 'replacement' for 'applied crypto'
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: has libkez on tap?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it was 'cryptography engineering'
asciilifeform: we had a thread.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes wut is this virutal server ?
ben_vulpes: typical aws digitalocean thingers
mircea_popescu: like a virtual server ?
ben_vulpes: ...
ben_vulpes: k
ben_vulpes: thanks
mircea_popescu: that was fun
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the ~1993 version is the original?
asciilifeform: aha
ben_vulpes: k ty
asciilifeform: i actually like the crc encyclopaedia moar
mircea_popescu: but anyway, this is actually a point - maintaining a stable irc connection is both informative and good preparation for the tasks ahead.
mircea_popescu: precisely the "trivial" thus instructive sort of task
trinque: filters out some power rangers right there
mircea_popescu: also is the first stone of "well your computer doesn't actuallty work, does it" most normies may encounter.
mircea_popescu: [- GLOBAL NOTICE - freenode itself not actually up to this standard. thank you.]
ben_vulpes: heh
mircea_popescu: but to please ben_vulpes : it may amuse you to learn that ask.fm put in a mitigation for my bot (ill designed, and fail to work) sometime on dec 30th. AND THEN apparently (accidentally ?) reverted it sometime jan 2nd.
ben_vulpes: cute
mircea_popescu: which i give 50-50 odds was just an accidental server update with old code.
ben_vulpes: how do people accidentally old code
ben_vulpes: i don't even programming and don't do that
mircea_popescu: wasn;t there an automake for kubinetes or such ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, i kind-of gave up documenting their downtime.
mircea_popescu: daily occurence.
ben_vulpes: bbl food
mircea_popescu: fuck i put comment in wrong article.
hanbot: it's a virutally harmless mistake
mircea_popescu: lmao
asciilifeform: !!key asciilifeform
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/17215D118B7239507FAFED98B98228A001ABFFC7.asc
BingoBoingo: !up pumblechook
BingoBoingo: pumblechook: Speak!
BingoBoingo: !!up pumblechook
deedbot: pumblechook voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: speak!
BingoBoingo: In vintage Trilema http://trilema.com/
BingoBoingo: http://trilema.com/2013/der-untergang/
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596028 <<< not in trb as far as i can tell, i can tell the thing to 'generate' etc.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 01:42 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595871 << in practice this is how it works, and has, for at least 3 years now.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596097 <<< fixxd☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 02:18 mircea_popescu: davout your four main pieces are a b and c ?
trinque: probably referring to that most miners are using their own strange to mine
davout: goes without saying
davout: anyway, i think the benefits of extracting/dropping the embedded miner would be quite small in contrast with the benefits of untangling the wallet
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596127 <<< engine quitting during take off != guaranteed corpse☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 02:55 asciilifeform: (possibly davout might have some input) i recently read an american-flavoured thing re pilotage accidents, and it dwelled on 'jp in petrol tank' , insidious condition where the engine ~will~ start but tends to quit ~during takeoff~, guaranteed corpse
davout: small planes just land straight back if enough runway
davout: larger ME planes will climb on an engine and come back to land
davout: the case truly fucked is small plane, short runway, trees at the end
trinque: what a place to leave trees
davout: trees, houses, water you name it
BingoBoingo: Well what is a puny aeroplane doing messing with a righteous tree?
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-09#1268284 << for the life of me i cannot find the thread to which you're referring here☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-09-09 19:07 mircea_popescu: the idea was to make them user-enacted.
davout: BingoBoingo: planes are racist obviously
BingoBoingo: davout: Nah, just suicidal. So long as some root survives tree has a chance of continuing to tree. Plane has no such faculty for continuing to plane.
BingoBoingo: Anyways only 16 days left for Hussein Bahamas to start WWIII and stop Trumpreich
davout: asciilifeform: lamport parachute generation hanging == not enough entropy available from /dev/random ?
ben_vulpes: http://imgur.com/a/KuPJv << some kind of voodoo magic in there knows i moved that format string around
davout: ben_vulpes: just 'inserted some line before and after'
ben_vulpes: davout: i think the highlighting is trying to tell me that it thinks that `format t "~{~A~}"' persisted from the previous commit to this one
ben_vulpes: notice how the mapcar line is highlight moar red to convey moar meaning
davout: yeah, aka oyu inserted some lines before and after, i doubt it'd be very smart about swapping two lines for example
ben_vulpes: also the preserved section goes from one line to two, and the diff-o-tron isn't saying anything about the leading paren on that bottom line
ben_vulpes: if the dark green indicates "preserved" then it's confusing the opener for (format with the opener for (let
ben_vulpes: i have the distinct impression that i am blithering madly to davout
davout: ah i didn't notice the two lines merged as one being seen as a move
davout: i don't really see asciilifeform's issue with large 'formatting' patches, as long as it can be mechanically established that the changes a patch brings do not change any of the code semantics there should be no problem with arbitrarily large patches
davout: story of my life https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/5a/36/0e/5a360eb4adf414c12b1964f454a29f8c.jpg
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1588758 << doable, but also easy to mess up.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 02:45 asciilifeform: hm for some reason i thought we had autofallover on scriba
Framedragger: (i.e., need to think carefully about the value of $time http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1588759 but may be useful)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 02:45 asciilifeform: (if a111 doesn't answer in $time)
mircea_popescu: davout i meant as far as actual mining is concerned (in practice). by the time of the gpu era, most people ditched satoshi code for mining.
davout: yep, same goes for actual walleting as far as I'm concerned :D
davout: so apparently, the electrum folks manage to fit a complete TXOs index in ~20gb
mircea_popescu: that's rarer, most wallet users being tardstalkers the solution was "use website"
davout: true
davout: for the cost of a 20gb index the wallet code can be completely removed, and implemented as a couple light scripts on top of TRB
mircea_popescu: i would expect less.
davout: that's indexing ~every single~ tx out against addresses
davout: no just the unspent ones
davout: *not
davout: if the responsibility of maintaning the address history is delegated to the wallet, i expect that this index can be massively shrunk
davout: and if history is somehow lost by the wallet, it's a rescan away
mircea_popescu: aha.
davout: i think i like this solution
davout: as a first step it can even be implemented without an UTXO index by address
davout: have trb rescan the UTXO for each "gimme-UTXOs-pertaining-to-these-addresses" and see how that goes
mircea_popescu: and in unrelated lulz, http://trilema.com/2015/internoc24-or-the-crisis-and-its-resolution/#comment-120934 "oh, lalala we can't hear anything" ; two months later "oh wait, what the guy said would happen happened, our marketing's utterly shot now" "OH I KNOW!!! I WILL FIX EVERYTHING! by going on in the manner that got me raped in the first place, because i'm a speshul snoflake that can!11".
mircea_popescu: and you JUST KNOW the conclusion of this will be "mp is bad and evil", in NO FUCKING CASE "i was an idiot and who knew, turns out it's unsustainable".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596254 << work out how many bytes it wants from /dev/random. how long it takes for your box to shit that many? that's your wait .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 08:14 davout: asciilifeform: lamport parachute generation hanging == not enough entropy available from /dev/random ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596264 << if it isn't apparent to naked eye in ~vtronic~ (e.g., phf's) viewer, it's a total loss of vtronicity.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 10:33 davout: i don't really see asciilifeform's issue with large 'formatting' patches, as long as it can be mechanically established that the changes a patch brings do not change any of the code semantics there should be no problem with arbitrarily large patches
asciilifeform: 'oh it's the same text except that i ran this-here perl turd on it and trust me that it works as i said on your perltron' is not vtronic.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596268 << imho best way would be if it answered normally if a111 is offline☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-04 13:18 Framedragger: (i.e., need to think carefully about the value of $time http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1588759 but may be useful)
mircea_popescu: oh god damned it
mircea_popescu: !!key asciilifeform
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/17215D118B7239507FAFED98B98228A001ABFFC7.asc
asciilifeform: ^ was correct last night, trinque ate it in time
asciilifeform: and shouldn't change again (until we retire gpg)
mircea_popescu: aite.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/no-such-labs-snsa-december-2016-statement/ << Trilema - No Such lAbs (S.NSA), December 2016 Statement
asciilifeform: 'Metropolitan Nagoya has literally thousands of people who can write assembly code that you’d literally trust your life to (you have before and will again, unless your sole method of transportation is bicycles), and probably only a few dozen who you’d want working on a web application. Tokyo has more, but still far too few.' << nuts.
mircea_popescu: might haver changed in the meanwhile.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, herr kako loves us enough to try to make own FUCKGOATS and try to undercut
asciilifeform: (or at least thinks.)
mircea_popescu: well, schematics published and all, neh ?
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: so all the better.
asciilifeform: except he dun like the auditability thing
mircea_popescu: heh
asciilifeform: so is doomed to lolcow
mircea_popescu: in fact or in fiction ?
asciilifeform: prolly the latter, d00d is almost lethally lazy
mircea_popescu: well there's no doom in fiction.
BingoBoingo: There's plenty of doom in fiction
mircea_popescu: gimme an example
BingoBoingo: Well that Poe fellow wrote broody fiction became or more miserable sad sack and drank self into gutter death.
mircea_popescu: irl.
mircea_popescu: kinda the problem with fiction, either it's "doom" and then a simple word, or else an explanation, which necessarily cuts short.
BingoBoingo: Hussein bahamas fictions himself a "way the world works" and dooms plenty well
mircea_popescu: one wonders how bahamas reads his own fanfic, really.
BingoBoingo: But yeah, didn't consider the construct before replying
mod6: <+asciilifeform> except he dun like the auditability thing << wat
asciilifeform: ask'im yerself
asciilifeform: (and/or see the heathen log)
trinque read, was a snore
shinohai: I stopped reading some time ago, same recycled butthurt
trinque: asciilifeform: they're telling you to do retarded things with your product to satisfy their own emotional needs
trinque: "look I was heard", "I too am smart"
mircea_popescu: ahh, those sweet sweet emotional needs. http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-08#864855☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-10-08 19:19 mircea_popescu: einstein never got the damned formula out because luce irigaray didn't see why he'd privilege the speed of light over other speeds that are so much more important to us. and so on.
davout: "In the course of the morning Lucy takes in nearly four Bitcents." <<< caught me off-guard
BingoBoingo: Seriously how does she make that much? I just assumed the decimal place moved.
BingoBoingo: And they work off of some poor folk voucher system instead of actual trb
mircea_popescu: i suspect it's a mystery
mircea_popescu: but ftr, 4 bitcents ~= 600 rand or so
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/dupa-dealuri/ << Trilema - Dupa dealuri
ben_vulpes: mnemnion: fix your connection
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 8322.88, vol: 3330971.68450000 | Volume-weighted last average: 8322.88
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency gbp
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCGBP last: 899.877, vol: 18608.72076929 | BTC-E BTCGBP last: 873.1239, vol: 10171.0279 | BTCChina BTCGBP last: 974.88092, vol: 3331938.45020000 | Kraken BTCGBP last: 901.583, vol: 47.3423607 | Volume-weighted last average: 974.156629489
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1114.92, vol: 18608.80892925 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1076.998, vol: 10171.0279 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1120.0, vol: 43465.49580282 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1201.040358, vol: 3332265.38790000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1116.481, vol: 4211.5242575 | Volume-weighted last average: 1199.0622506
mircea_popescu: run mode engaged huh
BingoBoingo: Seems so
BingoBoingo: I guess Buterin broke
mircea_popescu: unlike last time, bitcoin totally worth >1k nao.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo neah, the imaginary ethereum exchange rate went EVEN HIGHER THAN BTC!!111
mircea_popescu: lulz abound.
asciilifeform: speaking of tardware: https://archive.is/9l8z8
mircea_popescu: heh
asciilifeform: 'unlike our entirely open and untrojaned...'
mircea_popescu: aha
trinque: just another day on fleanode
asciilifeform: flea as in fleadom!111
davout: http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/citations/2017/01/04/25002-20170104ARTFIG00059-peillon-compare-le-sort-des-musulmans-francais-a-celui-des-juifs-sous-vichy.php
davout: (in present news and future noose)
asciilifeform: 'L'ancien ministre de l'Éducation, pourtant agrégé d'histoire, commet une erreur de dates, puisqu'il y a quarante ans, nous étions en 1977 et que sous le mandat de Valéry Giscard d'Estaing aucun juif ne portait l'étoile jaune.'
asciilifeform: win
mircea_popescu: lol problems.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw it occurs to me that your proposed padding scheme, while not useful as a rsa padding scheme, nevertheless may be rescued into a very serviceable hash function, which has the notable property that a) acordion and b) user settable output size. something like this : let R be a ring buffer of as many bits as the user specified the output should be, let M be the message. let there be a one bit state machine S = 0
mircea_popescu: . for each bit of M that is read : if 0 state machine gets a null bit added at the end ; if 1 state machine gets the M%S-th, 2M%S-th, ... nM%S-th bits flipped, for n=bitcount of S ; if 0 and the M-th % R-th bit = 1 then it is flipped, else it goes back to processing M-1th ; if 1 and the M-th % R-th bit = M-th % S-th bit then it is flipped, else it goes back to processing M-1th. that sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: it has the advantage that it needs an unspecified pile of memory (on average, half the message + half the message) for the state machine, and an unspecified number of operations (on average, 2x as many as message length).
asciilifeform: i suggested this, iirc, a day or two ago to ben_vulpes
asciilifeform: has down-side of potential ddosability
asciilifeform: ( was here, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595999 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 23:16 asciilifeform: to go back to hashes, and if you for some reason eschew 'when hiring fortune-teller, hire the cheapest',
mircea_popescu: ah i musta missed that. but yeah, can craft item that takes a long time to hash
mircea_popescu: still, it is ~only way to get hash that doesn't do the things we don't like.
asciilifeform: it has another problem, that i never invented yet a pill against, which is that later bits in the turdogram 'count for' considerably less than earlier ones
asciilifeform: ideally what you'd want is for ~any~ bitflip to scramble whole thing
mircea_popescu: nah, that's what my thing above : because of the state machine, you can't actually tell bit impact.
asciilifeform: you can tell that ~last~, for instance, bit, affects at most 1 bit of output.
mircea_popescu: every bit can in principle fuck up your R
mircea_popescu: this is not true.
asciilifeform: oh?
mircea_popescu: because state machine keeps growing.
mircea_popescu: last bit can in principle affect the whole damned ring.
asciilifeform: i'ma have to build a working model of this.
asciilifeform: (unless mircea_popescu has one already)
mircea_popescu: im not sure the above notation is all that clear, but if any questions i'll gladly answer
mircea_popescu: eh i was tempted but im kinda too rusty.
mircea_popescu: i wish i had a way to program things in a visual manner, so i could obtain a GIF! animated! of what the algorithm is supposed to do.
mircea_popescu: anyone know of a code-to-gif compiler ? i have nfi how one's supposed to do cryptography without it.
asciilifeform: i used to use 'mathematica' to do precisely this
asciilifeform: it's satanic tho.
mircea_popescu: yeah how fucking hard can this be, just take the ast and paint me some squares holy hell.
mircea_popescu: "give program, input and desired slide speed" "here's how it went . tick tick tock"
asciilifeform: quite exactly what m. does.
mircea_popescu: yes but do i have to have mathematica now ?
asciilifeform: (d00d was obsessed with state machines, so it has a thing where you define one and it shits out a box with arrow that you can move, stepwise or at x frames/sec, and shits out gifs, etc)
mircea_popescu: they're certainly useful here.
asciilifeform: well i warned, it is satanic. but there is no human analogue of this tool, sadly.
adlai: not a full solution, but i do recall phf mentioning some animation software driven by sexps
asciilifeform: it's ~10,000 man-years, in there.
asciilifeform: adlai: there always remains the option of writing a human proggy.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the general idea above being : you take all the sane parts of working hash functions, and ditch the insanities. so - no magic numbers, inside boxes, as boxes count, etc. use modulo-arithmetic and iterators, and one long cipher box.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah but fuck me, what am i going to do, php against imagemagick ? c++ and qt ? fuck.
asciilifeform: there's http://www.sagemath.org but it is very 'open sores' travail arabe.
mircea_popescu: i'm half tempted to just write it in php, and have it write out words instead of drawings.
asciilifeform: fortran if you like
asciilifeform: i'll read it.
asciilifeform sometimes works with a d00d who only knows fortran
mircea_popescu: sigh. i guess one has no choice, does one.
adlai: please elaborate, what do you mean by "writing a human proggy"? what i meant by "not a full solution" is that there's supposedly a tool out there which does 'half' the job, and obviously some human must write a proggy that does the other
asciilifeform: adlai: i meant 'proggy in normal language that is widely available', vs proprietary turdlang
asciilifeform: the thing is that there are no known 'human' programming systems, afaik, that give you seamless graphical ast and editable pixel-array linkage
asciilifeform: it is not my fault that open sores people are retarded
asciilifeform: and cannot, for instance, make anything like a usable cad
asciilifeform: or mathematizer
asciilifeform: (state of the art in open sores world is still macsyma, circa 1975)
adlai: one of the best retorts to rubes asking "why use lisp" is that macsyma still runs
asciilifeform: and yes, in m. you can give a state machine transition rule set and get animated gif out the other end. or a .avi. etc
asciilifeform: adlai: indeed it does, i put it to actual use at a salt mine
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency gbp
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCGBP last: 900.099, vol: 20746.51552853 | BTC-E BTCGBP last: 878.1365844, vol: 10763.04551 | BTCChina BTCGBP last: 979.762326, vol: 3454721.77850000 | Kraken BTCGBP last: 923.966, vol: 45.08264646 | Volume-weighted last average: 978.973790031
adlai should probably start putting it to use at the saltbox, for home-makework
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency eur
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 1062.055008, vol: 20750.93782536 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 1050.001, vol: 374.83284 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 1150.366455, vol: 3455280.01870000 | Kraken BTCEUR last: 1059.839, vol: 19240.6780902 | Volume-weighted last average: 1149.33317682
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1101.98, vol: 20827.03190928 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1076.626, vol: 10783.45355 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1108.0, vol: 46854.84645942 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1204.160846, vol: 3456018.44630000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1113.0, vol: 4603.83187077 | Volume-weighted last average: 1201.77924892
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/01/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-continue-reporting-upwards-volatility-march-to-magenta-continues/ << Qntra - fiat/Bitcoin Interfaces Continue Reporting Upwards Volatility, March to Magenta Continues
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/mp_fabulous_hashonator.php
mircea_popescu: this is just a mash-up together of elements to show how the concept works. better assemblage is probably possible.
ben_vulpes: quite the mashup
mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FbmWT/?raw=true << sample run
mircea_popescu: pretty sure my implementation has a fence error somewhere because evident parity issues, but anyway. prototype.
ben_vulpes: https://blog.medium.com/renewing-mediums-focus-98f374a960be#.8gsm40qwc << "we have no fucking idea how to make money from livejournal in 2017, but that's not going to stop us from lighting our investor's capital on fire and warming ourselves in front of it while lamenting the capitalist system!"
ben_vulpes: transformative humbug
mircea_popescu: heh
ben_vulpes: *investors'
mircea_popescu: hey, taleb's among them.
ben_vulpes: investor?
mircea_popescu: well, he writes on it.
pete_dushenski: the worst part of medium is that the images don't archive. this wouldn't be an issue for most republican blogs seeing as they're entirely text, but it's actually quite the bug for fiat writers, taleb included
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: busted footnote in your last piece eh
pete_dushenski didn't realise how much eur had weakened relative to usd until bb pointed it out. 1.05 yo!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: neato!
asciilifeform looks...
pete_dushenski: in unrelated phuctor happenings http://www.contravex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/baltic-servers-xmas-gift-1.jpg http://www.contravex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/baltic-servers-xmas-gift-2.jpg
pete_dushenski: straight from lithuania! (is Framedragger familiar with this brand?)
pete_dushenski: cheers to mircea_popescu for the regifting
mircea_popescu: holy shit they handwrote it ?!
pete_dushenski: lol yup. pretty straight and legible too
mircea_popescu: more powa to 'em.
pete_dushenski wonders if baltic servers knows how many dreams phuctor is making come true
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: speaking of which, phuctor is still in repair shop , engine lifted out, cleaning pistons, etc
pete_dushenski: old ferrari style eh
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: maybe moar of a harley.
pete_dushenski: sorta to be expected with performance machines of this calibre
adlai: now that's a hearoglyph i haven't seen in a long time!
pete_dushenski: ferraris older than ~20yo needed regular engine-out maintenance. every year, two at the most.
adlai: pete_dushenski: shana tova akhi!
pete_dushenski: cheers adlai :)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform does that make any sense / is it useful ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why is R 0....0 in step1 ?
mircea_popescu: it starts as that
asciilifeform: i mean in 'step 1', not in the start state
asciilifeform: it refers to flipping bits, but none get flipped
mircea_popescu: yes but since S is 1 bit long no transform takes place (1/2 is 0)
asciilifeform: aah
mircea_popescu: this is all pure arbitrary, can be done otherwise.
asciilifeform: the one slightly confusing bit is where we 'add bit to state machine'
asciilifeform: this doesn't have a traditional meaning, i am now trying to puzzle out what is meant
mircea_popescu: it simply expands it by one
mircea_popescu: if it's 1110 it becomes 11100
adlai: (ash s 1)
mircea_popescu: basically it's made so it increases memory and cpu usage.
mircea_popescu: calling it "state machine" is kind-of improper as i suppose the result also holds state. a cleaner separation may be advisable, but w/e.
asciilifeform: how does the position slide ?
mircea_popescu: but yes adlai is exactly right, shift one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform position increases by one each step, at the end of it.
asciilifeform: step 3 and 4 seem to have same position into M
mircea_popescu: because in some conditions pos also decreases 1
asciilifeform: hm.
mircea_popescu: "Because the R bit is 0, we flip it and decrease our position by 1 (but not below 0)"
asciilifeform: can haz pseudocode , indented ?
asciilifeform: (i'll take the original fortran, too, if it worx)
mircea_popescu: you can have the php that spits that out if you wish
asciilifeform: aite
mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6TW82/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ty
asciilifeform: adlai looks bored, maybe he wants to translate this
adlai has translated php precisely once in his life, and ain't nobody good time to incf!
mircea_popescu: the complains. "oh, you gave pseudocode ? can you make it go step by step ? oh it has, can we see code ? oh is code, can it be different code ?"
asciilifeform: no complaints actually
mircea_popescu: holy shit at some point will have to sit down and read something!
adlai: mircea_popescu: thank you for the sauce though, i was about to puzzle out the exact meaning of "M%S-th" behaviorally
mircea_popescu: np np
asciilifeform: where's the xor in there
asciilifeform: iirc xor is either 'xor' or c-style '^' in php
deedbot: http://cascadianhacker.com/veh-patch-post-patch-file-hash-checking-and-overall-improvements << CH - veh patch: post-patch file hash checking and overall improvements
ben_vulpes: that title is entirely incorrect
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have nfi how php xors or if it even understands anything. implemented as ifs.
asciilifeform: from my reading, it looks like an nxor
mircea_popescu: right. item is also full of bugs, ftr.
asciilifeform: (if a == b : b <= 1; else b <= 0)
asciilifeform enjoying this puzzler
asciilifeform never had occasion to read or write a phptronic proggy longer than a wp config
asciilifeform: also ben_vulpes's thing is interesting .
asciilifeform: i wonder if he's ready to make own difftron
ben_vulpes: study needleman-wunsch is in my todo list
ben_vulpes: kinda (gasp) itching to get my fingers into some cpp tho
trinque: lewd
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: out of curiosity, what entails "difftron" ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: are you ready for some ugly ?
ben_vulpes: i was hit with the ugly stick at birth, you can't scare me
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/KAkk0/?raw=true
asciilifeform: there.
asciilifeform: ^ asciilifeform's past life
mircea_popescu: lewd lol
asciilifeform: (and yeah it's backwards)