tmsr - Search: provably fair

asciilifeform: this was in old thread, re provably-fair pokerators , mircea_popescu shared the algo.

asciilifeform: jurov: the problem posed is quite reminiscent of ye olde 'provably fair casino' thread of '14

Framedragger: heh, speaking of 'provably fair' and location in question (tallinn), they've been doing e-voting (for all major elections etc) for a few years now. iirc code audits showed weak spots, multiple sek0rity expert teams, advisory bodies etc recommended to shut it down because it was unsafe, but proud estonia knows better.. :p

asciilifeform: (in the case of 'provably fair', he can be shown the seed for the prng, but there is NO way for the casino to demonstrate that NO ONE ELSE KNEW it. hence -- just as promisetronic, and now on top of it all braindamage of using prng)

asciilifeform: the cryptographic mega-puzzler would be re how 'ck coin' could be 'provably fair' (i.e. the ciphertexts provably represent privkeys containing the entire monetary base, in aggregate )

mircea_popescu: not that expensive to make it provably fair though.

danielpbarron: the poker thing need not be "provably fair" it only needs to have WoT integration -- not unlike Eulora

asciilifeform: mats, mircea_popescu, et al : just about any game can be played 'over bitcoin blockchain' and be 'provably fair', this is not the problem, but that ~nobody wants to pay the cost (in time and coin both) of playing over btc telegraph.

mircea_popescu: nice font o.O. who's scws. where's the provably fair link ? why would i play roulette, i don't want to give you 5% or w/e the fuck the edge was. 1% is generous, this is not 1750.

adlai rushes to patent provably fair batch auction randomization based on hash collisions

assbot: Get FREE Bitcoins and win AMAZON gift cards in Provably Fair games! | BitGame ... ( http://bit.ly/1MA3nH3 )

assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 01:56:25; asciilifeform: whose only purpose is to be one of the 'provably fair' winners that day

asciilifeform: whose only purpose is to be one of the 'provably fair' winners that day ☟︎

mircea_popescu: i mean what's the advantage to rolling this dice as opposed to roling a proper, provably fair dice ?

mircea_popescu: right. specifically because it's not provably fair :)

mircea_popescu: benkay this has the advantage that it's a provably fair stochastic process.

mircea_popescu: 1. Client changes the seed after each new server seed, before every bet. He doesn't know server seed, so seed he provides should give a random number. (Painfully tedious, few actually do it, but for those who do, provably fair.) << prolly a bot that does this would be useful.

punkman: I want to make a nice provably fair baccarat game. Get all those chinese bitcoins.

Namworld: Re what I was talking about the other day concerning provably fair systems. To be fair, most casinos do the same thing re providing new server seeds after user's seed.

BingoBoingo: Essentially all provably fair schemes come down to an evaluation of the implementor's reliability.

Namworld: I think he mentioned at some point the provably fair system for PrimeDice would be modified for a 4th version of the website, but eh

BingoBoingo: Namworld: Well, a casino operator could "take a gamble" by offering a player a result to the player's detriment that is not provably fair

BingoBoingo: The thing about "provably fair" is that like all other transactions it is an offer from one party to another.

Namworld: Provably fair should imply that any cheating possible under any scenario is possible to catch.

BingoBoingo: Well, "provably fair" offers some room to choose particulars, but... Can have problems

BingoBoingo: Provably fair ought to be the bare minimum. It is a shame people consider themselvesserious without it.

Namworld: Yeah, as I said, a properly done provably fair system doesn't prevent cheating/stealing. It just makes it impossible to do without the possibility of getting caught.

BingoBoingo remembers TradeFortress constantly advocating beautiful provably fair systems and just... Running with the money...

Namworld: It's more the implementation of their provably fair system.

Namworld: A true provably fair system doesn't need EVERYONE to check and doesn't allow any scenario where a cheated bet is impossible to notice.

Namworld: because you can still change the client seed before each bet, making it provably fair. The problem is if you don't, you can be cheated and it's impossible to get caught.

Namworld: So, PrimeDice still isn't provably fair... Should I bother calling Stunna on it until he fixes it?

pankkake: so investors would have to chose between less volume yet provably fair, vs. more volume but maybe some stealth stealing

ThickAsThieves: for example, if "state lottery" takes up "provably" fair

ThickAsThieves: design a provably fair casino that cant steal from anyone

ThickAsThieves: the topic is whether provably fair is provably a fiat gambling killer

mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves actually that's a valid approach, mike_c's. i'd just like to explore the provably fair angle, from bettors prespective

fluffypony: thus as it stands right now provably fair is "provably making payments", not provably fair in the absolute sense

fluffypony: I agree with ThickAsThieves - I think "provably fair" often means "proving that there are winners and losers"

ThickAsThieves: this may allow some forms of provably fair, but many creative ways to game that otherwise

mircea_popescu: the provably fair thing will sink fiat gambling, only, they don't know it yet.

ozbot: FairProof.com - the simplest provably fair bitcoin multi-lottery (instant)

asciilifeform: you could play this right now, sans voodoo, and it would look quite like the 'provably fair' dice widgets

asciilifeform: idly wondering about a 'provably fair' blockchain chess-for-coin

pankkake: "the first Bitcoin-only gaming establishment to offer unique, provably-fair games" is true if you account for "unique"

mircea_popescu: "CasinoBitco.in (CBTC) was the first Bitcoin-only gaming establishment to offer unique, provably-fair games along with a full Sportsbook. Operating successfully since May 2013"

asciilifeform: always seemed to be like 'provably fair' dice is inherently at odds with sane rng.

mircea_popescu: "Their roulette is technically provably fair and they are publishing complete results from previous day. But they are cheating in such naive way that they simply change outcome of roulette game when needed and later in published results from previous day they show different outcome, which is correct one but was not used."

benkay: got some trash to talk on someone's provably fair gambling setup, nubbins` ?

mikaeldice: I'm not too worried about this one.. "How Does Dicelead Proof Us Each Roll Is Legitimate? dicelead is provably fair which mean you can verfiy each roll is absolutely fair ,so we are only run dicelead.com for fair purpose and no way to change any result of it" ah, well, okay then

mircea_popescu: provably fair gambling is so far the most notable practical use of the blockchain.

lyspooner: or how about a more general questions for the group here: are there any bitcoin companies that use the blockchain in unique ways and produce revenue, other than provably fair casinos or notarial services?

mircea_popescu: nubbins` was the hat provably fair ?

mircea_popescu: http://media.oglaf.com/comic/bugfuck.jpg << provably fair odds.

mircea_popescu: in fact, a blog dedicated to random-weekly audits of provably fair betting sites would be interesting

benkay_: seems like nobody's auditing these "provably fair" operators

mircea_popescu: the provably fair thing can be as subtle as good cryptography.

parseval: The differentiator would be the technology being used and provable fairness.. HeroEngine, for example, is what SWTOR is built on. Build on that platform and other sites like Dragon's Tale would fold up as their players move to the modern, provably fair game

parseval: A group of developers could pool together the licensing fee and develop the game with provably fair methods at a 5% house advantage, then crowdsource the betting pool ala just-dice, keeping 2% for themselves for management and maintenance

kingofsports: his games are not provably fair just the general audited RNG bullshit, i dont play but its funny cause i so want to prove over a sample of 100,000 rolls that his game is -EV

noaccess: "we have winklevoss" means that people used to talk about the possibilities afforded by bitcoin. provably fair being one. smart contracts. other stuff I read about. now it's all gimmicks.

ThickAsThieves: so far my assets are all "provably fair" at least ;)

Namworld: These new dice games require only a single payment, and retain the provably fair element. Then people can spam the bet button 10 times a second. Quite addictive.