log
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asciilifeform: i disagree that the ugly boat is intrinsically bad idea
asciilifeform: it's poor-misanthrope tech and i'm for it, to the hilt.
asciilifeform: fuck payingrent.
asciilifeform: but iirc we already had this thread.
asciilifeform: iirc also mircea_popescu's technical objections were, imho, intellectually lazy ('pipe fittings will cost their weight in gold, because boat and they can' -- by same token rng MUST cost 10k $, because raytheon's does; 'must drag it to shore to paint bottom' -- also fixable, make the bottom from inconel or hastelloy ; etc )
asciilifeform: technical problems admit technical solutions. but i suppose political problem ( mircea_popescu simply loathes the idea , Answer Lies In The Sewers - style, ohnoez folx with modest means living rent-free ) does not ..?
mircea_popescu: eh, my recollection of the discussion is, "there's houseboat and there's yacht. there's no batshit-nonsense for the ~same reason there's no golf club cum baseball bat cum tennis racket."
mircea_popescu: and no, it isn't some sort of brilliant idea to "you know, like swiss army knife, for sports handhelds!"
mircea_popescu: just more of the same tedious, lazy, loathsome "reasoning" by simile.
mircea_popescu: but otherwise -- no further than last year i sat and drank on a "QUIDNON". it was large and well furnished, built specifically for being casino. sat, logically, ON RIVER, beause no waves. and so forth.
mircea_popescu: i need some roto'n culo to "invent" the houseboat for me like i need some indigent farmer to invent a new religion on the basis of "reading" tablets fallen from the sky.
mircea_popescu: (in passing let it be said that the universal and fundamental quality of snake oil is just this swiss army knife appearance, it's supposed to be everything for everyone but nothing in particular to no particular anyone.)
mircea_popescu: oh, yeah, and the whole "rent free" nonsense bit a huge girder once i pointed out to you what the proper solution for this boating bs is ; then it turned out the whole thing was more of an exercise in inverting naggum's matrices "to see if it could be done" than anything specific.
phf: intuitively any rent free arrangement must necessarily cost more, because it's not subsidized by the master
mircea_popescu: if you factor into this "rent free" what tomahawks copst anbd what they do for that money, you're sunk.
mircea_popescu: the reason merchant class even appeared in medieval europe was because it's cheaper to rent a house in castle than it is to produce it. sucker's play, and that's how aristocracy bled to death.
mircea_popescu: not like it wasn't fucking obvious, hence the whole "student" vagabond class, already well entranched by the time of villon.
phf: we're so far away from that division, that it's hard to reason about it, but on reflection it makes sense
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661225 << has approx same to do with modern rent racket, as with mars ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 00:32 mircea_popescu: not like it wasn't fucking obvious, hence the whole "student" vagabond class, already well entranched by the time of villon.
mircea_popescu: inexplicable, you know (never said maximillian) how i owe money to merchants for armies to defend/acquire the very fucking towns in which these merchants live. how is it that max owes fugger rather than fugger owing max ?!
asciilifeform: those aristos died of stupidity-- thinking that they were exempt from having to learn about money, similarly to modern brahmins 'exemption' from crypto
mircea_popescu: i suppose.
phf: asciilifeform: the specifics of rent racket are different, but same principles apply to escaping modern rent racket in any kind of real sense, beyond "don't you hate paying rent??? what if i told you you don't have to pay rent ever again!1" snake oil
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661219 << d00d never claimed to invent anything -- just publishes design, like FG is published, wat ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 00:22 mircea_popescu: i need some roto'n culo to "invent" the houseboat for me like i need some indigent farmer to invent a new religion on the basis of "reading" tablets fallen from the sky.
mircea_popescu: yes, yes.
mircea_popescu: where do i buy it ?
mircea_popescu: it's not like fg is published ; it's like escher is published.
asciilifeform: afaik it was not released as of yet
mircea_popescu: yaya
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661221 << old iron-bottomed ( built to be disposable ) diesels are no solution to anything but scrap business . ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 00:27 mircea_popescu: oh, yeah, and the whole "rent free" nonsense bit a huge girder once i pointed out to you what the proper solution for this boating bs is ; then it turned out the whole thing was more of an exercise in inverting naggum's matrices "to see if it could be done" than anything specific.
mircea_popescu: you will have to decide what your problem is. do you want cheap ? do you want made in kitchen ? do you want "looks like my wife's cunt" ? what, specifically, do you want ?
asciilifeform: cheap + as close to 0 recurring cost as possible.
mircea_popescu: you will never EVER be able to beat for price the discounted products of an industrial process through artisanal craftsmanship.
asciilifeform: FG exists. so -- plainly false.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, you know what, giving your skill in formulating problems, i suspect orlov may have a solution justr for you.
asciilifeform: when industry has 0 interest in your problem domain -- it's artisanal, or nuffin'
mircea_popescu: the problem domain of "item that sails" is wel lcatered to. the problem domain of "doods feel like they're not personally interesting enough", never will.
asciilifeform: item that sails ~for kalash budget~ is not well catered to. afaik.
mircea_popescu: hey, i got a pair of two dollar shoes to sell you also.
asciilifeform: these are products of mass industry, mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: artisan, on otherhand, can make 2 $ shoes that will outlast mircea_popescu's 2$k
asciilifeform: if he puts in the time.
mircea_popescu: well, no, seeing how $ also product of mass industry. but yes, slavegirls make me all soreta things for free
mircea_popescu: and they also don't pay rent.
mircea_popescu: so maybe something more in that vein would satisfy.
asciilifeform: same idea. orlol's, or gentoo, or almost all of asciilifeform's equipment, is of this type
asciilifeform: 'be own slavegirl'
mircea_popescu: the problem is that fg can be bought, and escher's drawings can not be bought. orlol is of the latter type.
asciilifeform: this could very well be true, but imho oughta be approached as ~technical~ question
mircea_popescu: it was, then you just raise it six months later as if it hasn't.
phf: item that sails for kalash money exists, miss rockaway armada likes to build those
mircea_popescu: mebbe just re-read discussion, offer specific objections ?
asciilifeform: phf: sails+livable ?
phf: asciilifeform: actually, yes, on both accounts, but you should perhaps image search miss rockaway armada
asciilifeform puts on conveyor
mircea_popescu: "livable" you know. the colonization of polynesia is living proof that man can live on a plank.
asciilifeform: umm phf these dun look like oceanic vessels
asciilifeform: disingenuous to compare
phf: kalash money though
asciilifeform: monkey living.
mircea_popescu vaguely regrets he's not harun al rashid, sends sipahi over orlol's place, give him a year to make the damned thing and force him to sail in it.
asciilifeform: i fully expect that he'll sail in it
phf: reading orlol i thought he already had a sailable device? why aren't there plans&details for what he already allegedly has
mircea_popescu: and i fully expect that as he drowns you'll find some other equivalent nonsense to fully expect will work.
asciilifeform: phf: he had, then, like idiot, got a wife
mircea_popescu: she beleeted the internets ?!
phf: last time orlol's sail boat came up i linked some detailed plans by digital nomads for living houseboats. those were decidedly not built on kalash budget (mostly funded by alphabet companies, because choke full of electronics)
asciilifeform: phf: the old boat, he sold, it was an off-the-shelf item
mircea_popescu: wait. he had an oceangoing vessel on "kalash budget" he bought off the shelf ?
mircea_popescu: wtf is this!
asciilifeform: phf: if not open-ocean capable, it's rubbish, because fails at the elementary task of putting distance b/w operator and otherpeople
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in fact. iirc it cost him 10k usd or so, originally, in 2007ish
mircea_popescu: what other people ? the other people who will grow your fucking food and do your laundry ?
asciilifeform: yes, them
mircea_popescu: this makes as much sense as any hobbyst discussion. ima check out.
asciilifeform: also i dunno re mircea_popescu , but machine does my laundry
asciilifeform: and would generate my food, if it could.
mircea_popescu: if you have the laundry.
asciilifeform: 100% physically closed cycle, motherfuckers, on mars, if i could!1111
phf: ^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_oEmG7DzU
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform isn't death a cheaper altenrative ?
asciilifeform: it's free!11
mircea_popescu: "i don't want to die, i just want to go into a bottle."
asciilifeform: but not nearly as fun
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't even consider introversion as anything other than insanity, does he.
mircea_popescu: why not you know, get used to talking to mario $rando instead ? way the fuck easier than growing linen on the open ocean.
mircea_popescu: actually, introversion per se is one thing. much like jumping on one foot is one thing. when you actually miss a leg it's a different story, and should regrow it!
asciilifeform: at one point folx were used to typhus and everything, incl. houses of great lords ( see last night's plumbing b00k link ) stinking of shit. then came the tech to stop.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i fully confess i am simply too lazy to grow cash crops on mars, prefer to just you know, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-24#1660854 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-24 16:45 asciilifeform: i suppose you can have weekly-fresh-cunts XOR only-ever-talking-to-people-who-are-people
asciilifeform: and it wasn't, somehow, any longer a thing to which 'you simply gotta get used to '.
mircea_popescu: you want to technologize talking to people out of the equation of living ?
asciilifeform: make optional. the way having children is.
mircea_popescu: how is it not optional now.
asciilifeform: it is optional now but veeey expensive.
mircea_popescu: mmm. i dunno. i mean in the sense condoms are three bux or w/e, break the "Student"'s budget
asciilifeform: if i were to pay 10x less rent, would have more than 10x the unwanted hyoomancontact.
mircea_popescu: from experience or from extrapolation ?
asciilifeform: experience.
mircea_popescu: aite then.
asciilifeform: fwiw i'd like to solve what i see as the solvable problem, of minimizing living expense without having to live among scum
mircea_popescu: why not increase income ? it's the traditional approach.
asciilifeform: ( and in fact i considered lafondlandia, even, and did go there, and haggle with realtors, chitchat with the criminally insane locals, etc. and concluded that it was just short of +ev )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why not jump very high, and go to mars, aha
mircea_popescu: there's a reason ~everyone applies that method. the reason being 10 overbids 9 whereas 8 does not.
mircea_popescu: it's better to have more money than to pay less rent.
asciilifeform: mega-insight
asciilifeform: fact is that it is the most effective way to 'get moar money'
mircea_popescu: with you i don't always know what'sa obvious.
asciilifeform: to give less of it to rentseekers.
mircea_popescu: this is actually not true.
mircea_popescu: just make sure they deliver more than what they take.
mircea_popescu: obligatory link to http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-21#1026639 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-02-21 01:19 mircea_popescu: "she's been going through 6-7k each month since autumn, but i get to go visit p diddy whenever i feel like it. it's a wash"
asciilifeform: i'd happily move to a planet with no pdiddy.
mircea_popescu: nevermind that. consider this : my living arrangements, were they to be separated as an independent profit center, were in the green pretty much every year for the past 20.
mircea_popescu: the correct approach to "live rent free" is to work it as a business. the rest is poppycock.
asciilifeform: this is possible when you're mircea_popescu and have leverage.
asciilifeform: ( and jurisdiction-shopping )
mircea_popescu: mp was born in a country where 20 dollars was a monthly salary. leverage is not so simple as all that.
asciilifeform: and asciilifeform born where ~nobody knew what dollar looked like, lol , what of it
mircea_popescu: i'm just saying, leverage isn't this magical thing from the sky.
asciilifeform: it's not magical, no, but comes with having capital, vs subsistence living
mircea_popescu: subsistence living has a peculiar meaning in romania of the 80s.
mircea_popescu: lemme dig out a pic.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2010/piinea-amara-a-baietasilor-de-cartier/ << 1st image there. ro "hip hop" band (ro terminology), ie gangsta rap. they ACTUALLY have the creds tho, comiong from the actual hood.
mircea_popescu: which is what soviet style econom,ies were, cca 1990.
asciilifeform: i dun see anything peculiar in the pics..
mircea_popescu: hm. maybe it's one of those things where it doesn't denote, it connotes. anyway, first one is a fine indication of subsistence living in question.
asciilifeform: i'll point out that su built massive economic base , on the plunder of which the 'civilized' west ~ to this day ~ runs
mircea_popescu: that may be ; but there exists no ghetto in all of the us today that can compare to eg ghencea, or whatever other "urban development".
mircea_popescu: lafond is hallucinating, those people live in luxury.\
asciilifeform: visit bmore, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: for one thing -- can actually buy meat. CAN. could.
asciilifeform: incognito, if you must
asciilifeform: orly
mircea_popescu: sure. heck, there's even supermarkets they can borrow it from.
asciilifeform: recall asciilifeform's 'food depo' photos ?
mircea_popescu: yea ?
asciilifeform: that meat ain't meat, it's whatever they scrape from the floor at meat plant, + corn starch
mircea_popescu: get back to me when you find a household making it on 30 dollars a month.
mircea_popescu: with the women making clothes by hand out of stolen scraps, and all the complexities of soups etc.
asciilifeform: they're in afgan, where rent is 20
mircea_popescu: india, ghetto. the us ? heh.
asciilifeform: they also have living capital, in india etc : people who, e.g., still know how to make cloth, and can live N to a room without killing self or each other
mircea_popescu: for that matter, get back to me when any of them actually work a field, by hand, to make 100 dollars in 6 months of oxen labour.
asciilifeform: what field, lol
asciilifeform: and whence the ox.
mircea_popescu: THAT is what qualifies, not the butthurt bullshit of wanna-be princeses upset some other dorks they cant' distinguish themselves from got a cooler car.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no ox. let them pull the plow.
asciilifeform: and while suffering aids and ebola!111
mircea_popescu: was ~no aids in romania. but i have personally seen woman pulling man pushing plow.
asciilifeform: sounds inefficient
mircea_popescu: very.
mircea_popescu: which is the fundamental point of poverty.
asciilifeform: why not both pull
mircea_popescu: cuz then the blade just goes out ?
asciilifeform: hm, point
mircea_popescu: plowing tractors have special hydraulics to keep it in. lot of force, more than the pull.
asciilifeform: i thought mass was enough..
mircea_popescu: i suppose you could just put a huge rock on it, but then the horse'll die.
asciilifeform not expert on subj
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel_p
deedbot: gabriel_laddel_p voiced for 30 minutes.
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-24#1661195 < have you tried selling FG to data science / machine learning types? IE the only group of young people with disposable income. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-24 22:52 asciilifeform: to revisit upstack : i'd still like to find this shangri-la, between britney-rubbish and FG, where actual money is to be made.
gabriel_laddel_p: On the basis that FG won't rest on some portion of the state space when you train your model
mircea_popescu: eh, we're not trying to requalify him into a salesman over here.
gabriel_laddel_p: and will give a better prediction / faster convergence than PRNGs
mircea_popescu: let the man do his ada rsa
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: we even had a thread about this
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: what, the geiger counter NN training, or another one?
asciilifeform: fwiw worx great . but they'd rather use intel's.
asciilifeform: because , for instance, they already have one.
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: and you say this with what basis?
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: you specifically talked to who?
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: do you have numbers for convergence with FG vs intel PRNG?
gabriel_laddel_p: for MNIST or the like?
gabriel_laddel_p: I was planning on selling FG using this, but have a lot on my plate
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: interested in selling on commission perchance
asciilifeform: ?
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: not in my present state, and certainly not without numbers
gabriel_laddel_p: I'm happy to compute myself, but am having a hard time convincing ppl to buy me FG
gabriel_laddel_p: have tried, and tried and tried
gabriel_laddel_p: no no, they'd rather buy several months worth of soylent
gabriel_laddel_p: fucking retards
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: want couplea GB of output
gabriel_laddel_p: jesus fuck
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel_p can just use eg mod6 's dataset ? should be ~6gb i expect
asciilifeform: theoretically you dun need a physical unit, for such a test
asciilifeform: aha !!
gabriel_laddel_p: mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: capital idea!
asciilifeform: paging mod6
mircea_popescu: now to see if he deleted it lol.
asciilifeform: i or he or even mircea_popescu can make moar..
asciilifeform: and whole buncha folx here
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: diva send the x61? I have someone waiting on me to deliver a masamune atop it
gabriel_laddel_p: and have already taken 300 of his dollars
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: it's crated but not out yet
asciilifeform: busy week.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: FG does, ftr, ~7kB/s.
asciilifeform: ( slightly more, or slightly less, depending on room temp )
asciilifeform: there is also some variation in the analogue components.
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661215 < the end of this thread was MP noting that if you wanted a boat, buy it when the Korean shipping firm imploded, else stuff. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 00:18 mircea_popescu: eh, my recollection of the discussion is, "there's houseboat and there's yacht. there's no batshit-nonsense for the ~same reason there's no golf club cum baseball bat cum tennis racket."
gabriel_laddel_p: *stfu
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: i dun need an iron thing built to last for 10y and eating $1000 diesel to move 10km, for anything
asciilifeform: why not suggest an old boeing, while at it.
phf: can presumably spec out the thing by noting all the instances of "omg, i definitely not don't need X that does Y what are you stupid" and building a constraint rules out of them
asciilifeform: phf: i specced 'sub-50kusd machine in which one can live and NOT near scum', i dun care if boat, could be an orbital capsule if such existed.
asciilifeform: or teleporter, ditto
asciilifeform: and live like man, not monkey
asciilifeform: which means, yes, 'q' size bed, at minimal, and desk, and hermetic seal, etc
asciilifeform: this may or may not be feasible with current tech. but is imho a legit technical problem.
asciilifeform: rather than a 'stfu, idiot, you asked for philosopher's stone'
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506447 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 22:30 mircea_popescu: if the sheep found a way to graze on rafts, the wolves would ride around in speedboats.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: ocean is pretty big.
asciilifeform: don't be a sheep, don't flock.
asciilifeform: mean free wolf path will be long.
asciilifeform: fact remains, pirate density is higher on land, than at sea.
asciilifeform: afaik everywhere.
phf: i don't have enough experience with open ocean sailing, but the ocean is not as big as you think, as far as pirate avoidance is concerned, because of the currents. you have stable streams, that are essentially mandatory for long distance travel. piracy has been traditionally carried out at various locations where these currents terminate or switch. if you're primarily relying on wind (and there's only so much gas your little boat will carry), you will
phf: be at huge disadvantage if you're attempting to avoid slipstreams.
phf: so you basically have a choice between traveling along known paths (that will connect land to land, or near land)
phf: or sitting without wind and current in the middle of nowhere, praying that you have enough gas to take you to a closest stream
phf: (all of this is pretty obvious, if you ask yourself, how did you have so many skirmishes during the age of exploration, given how big the ocean is and how few vessels compared to now were on the surface)
asciilifeform: phf: there is also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596880 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 03:32 mircea_popescu: famous russian gun commentator guy explains this cannonicaly, imo. "thief - wants to get loot. not to die with you there."
asciilifeform: afaik modern pirates deal in tankers, which are valuable ( and insured + unarmed ) and not car-sized yachts, likewise
asciilifeform: incidentally this here is another possible minus of 'old tanker as houseboat' idea. picture the pirates. they might shoot you out of sheer frustration...
asciilifeform: 'wtf, this thing is empty'
phf: considering that the thing is designed for fambly, shooting will be a mercy
asciilifeform: btw orlol never mentions kingstons, and imho they are the most important control on any serious boat!111
asciilifeform: incidentally if you're gonna diesel, it ought to be in a sub ( or at least 'narco sub', no moar than half metre above water )
asciilifeform: i know of 0 subs overtaken by pirates of any description...
phf: yes, but what about the kraken
asciilifeform: the kraken is sadly inescapable.
mircea_popescu: phf the "constraint" resultant strictly determines the item as a psychological rather than physical constructy.
mircea_popescu: he wants to pay ~what pvc costs per the weight for an ocean-going item. it's not unlike me speccing "i want computer made out of seminole grain. they can make pasta out of it, why not computer."
mircea_popescu: not tom ention the part where it's "Car-sized" on the outside and "q-bed sized" on the inside.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> not sure, possibly nobody gave a shit. << iirc no websites for either existed at the time of listing.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> paging mod6 << +gabriel_laddel_p, I've got 'em.
mod6: !~later tell gabriel_laddel_p Let me know how much entropy you'd like, I'll run ent test & dieharder against it, let you decide if you want it. I'll ask 0.1 BTC per Gb. What is your bid?
jhvh1: mod6: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the yacht i visited recently had 2 ~q - beds and was externally not larger than three BingoBoingo-trucks stacked vertically
asciilifeform: 'car-sized' is flexible thing. car-footprint.
asciilifeform: and yes, i'd expect to pay ~materials by weight~ cost, considering that thread was about a hypothetical boat that ~one builds with own hands~
asciilifeform: ( because it is intrinsically 'antisheep' item and will NEVER exist as industrial output )
asciilifeform: exactly like how mircea_popescu gets food finer than the finest, costliest cook could reliably make for him for money
asciilifeform: there is ~nothing~ that can remotely hold a candle to craftsmanship-with-your-own-hands-for-your-own-fucking-self
mod6: asciilifeform: also, re 'wires', indeed, just experiment at this point, not for battlefield use.
asciilifeform: even, for instance, the keyboard asciilifeform is using at this moment, took a man-month of asciilifeform
asciilifeform: and cannot be had for any price at all
asciilifeform: anywhere
asciilifeform: and i'm quite satisfied with it, and wouldn't trade it for any industrially-produced supposedly-equivalent item.
asciilifeform: ditto gentoo.
asciilifeform: there is no substitute, i will probably die still using my current gentoo.
asciilifeform: and certainly no 'one size fits all' jobsworth-made substitute
asciilifeform: is even in principle possible, or worth contemplating
mod6 recently gotn kinesis advantage 2
mod6: it's got the cherry mx reds. been using it for a month. im getting used to it.
asciilifeform can't stand cherry switches
mod6: which ones does alf like?
asciilifeform: ibm 'F'
asciilifeform: or, at the very worst, 'white alps'
asciilifeform: (veeery distant 2nd)
mod6: is there any specific model you use/prefer?
mod6: i.e. 3179, 3270, ... etc.
asciilifeform: F.
asciilifeform: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/IBM_Model_F_122.png << subj
asciilifeform: not to be confused with a certain visually-identical model-m
asciilifeform: this one has 0 rubber in it.
asciilifeform: and 0 rivets.
mod6: ah
asciilifeform: if you ever manage to get hold of one, it'll need 1) paint strip 2) paint job, on 6 pieces 3) entirely new electronics 4) ultrasonic cleaning 5) calibration
asciilifeform: mine also got rf-shield paint on all internals, for good measure (wai not)
asciilifeform: oh and i oughta mention, getting the thing together requires woodworker's clamps and just-so nudge'shove, takes 5-6 tries, during each of which all 122 keys fall out and separate into spring, anvil...
asciilifeform: not for faint-of-heart..
phf: mod6: i used that one for a long time with arensito layout (http://www.pvv.org/~hakonhal/main.cgi/keyboard). still the most pleasant typing experience i've had, but was also entirely antisocial, i.e. couldn't use any other keyboards at all
asciilifeform: the up-side : 1) incomparable ( at least i cannot describe it in words ) feel of 'click' 2) theoretically eternal board. there are NO electrical contacts exposed, it works on electric fields.
asciilifeform: you can bathe it..
asciilifeform: phf: that resembles naggum's layout
asciilifeform: interesting.
asciilifeform: ( he had 'special' chars in middle column )
mod6: phf: aha. even with qwerty on the kinesis, it still messes me up a bit now on regular staggard row layouts. i never tried alt layouts such as dvorak since a friend went through the same thing. always found himself having to switch everyone elses keyboard to dvorak just to "use" their keyboard for a minute.
phf: yeah, there's actually some "modern" qwerty modification that puts special chars on middle column
phf: but the big insight of arensito is to move all the special chars into an additional mode. so parenthesis are for example on altgr-k altgr-l etc.
asciilifeform: this sounds like agony
phf: not on kinesis
asciilifeform: modes == agony
asciilifeform doesn't vi, either
phf: your modifiers are under your thumb, and you chord
asciilifeform: why not have 10-key chorder then.
asciilifeform: if yer gonna chord.
asciilifeform: as it is, sounds like worst of both worlds.
phf: ~sounds~ is the keyword here
asciilifeform: i had a keyboard where you had to press 'fn' to turn numbers into Fs
asciilifeform: it was a misery
asciilifeform: and never, ever stopped.
phf: yes, but it's nothing like the item in question
asciilifeform: how does this chord differ ?
mod6: i vi/m, and i have to say that with the kinesis, the tiny ESC key bugs me. so i remap ESC to the right thumb ctrl key, and the 'OS' key to ctrl.
asciilifeform: the only legit justification for chords is not-having-to-move-fingers-laterally
asciilifeform: hence 10key kbd
phf: you already chord to get to any of the special symbols, when you press shift
phf: unless you have unchorded specials, and you use number keypad for numbers, but then you have hell of lateral travel
asciilifeform: i remap '[' ']' to '(' ')' when lisp
asciilifeform: phf didn't ?!
phf: sure, but the rest
asciilifeform: other specials not so useful in lisp
phf: but you chord.
asciilifeform: i also chord to get greek, sure
asciilifeform: but i would stop if i could!
phf: well, it's a trade off between that, and travel distance
asciilifeform: would happily have 3 'stories' of kbd, like organ.
asciilifeform: for a while i had pedals. threw'em out because mechanically infuriatingly poor quality
asciilifeform: ( and -- perhaps like oceanic boat -- this is a MUCH trickier object to hand-craft than you might think )
asciilifeform: key modes, imho, are like the topmost shelf in bookcase in a house with proper (19th c euro) ceiling height -- a place for rarely-used things
phf: you're either chording or traveling. there's only enough space for alphabet there. naggum's hack is that he puts opening parts of { [ ( pairs on the middle row, but he still has to chord for closing. (he presumably uses electric mode)
asciilifeform: iirc he had ( and ) both in there. but could be wrong.
asciilifeform: ( if he didn't, i have nfi why not ! )
phf: not enough space!
asciilifeform: throw out some rubbish
phf: like?
asciilifeform: $ .
asciilifeform: or @ .
asciilifeform: or ; .
phf: those are chorded AND you have to travel
asciilifeform: what did he have in there ? phf do you have the original article handy ?
phf: no, and i think it was in emacs group, so no xach archive
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack : imho naggum's mega-insight was that the hands have 0 business being so close together as they typically are, and that the space ~between~ them oughta contain specials
asciilifeform: phf: afaik xach has all usenet posts from naggum in all public groups
asciilifeform: and certainly the keyboard
phf: definitely not "all public groups" but maybe the keyboard is there
phf: he basically just took the naggum posts from ron garret's complete(-ish) archive of comp.lang.lisp
asciilifeform: >> http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3244633165773164@naggum.no.html <<
phf: Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
phf: “ and then you tell your keyboard driver og X or whatever that you have placed the parens {} [] () and <> (unshifted and shifted) in what used to be the 6YHN colum”
asciilifeform: funnily enough, my 'f' gives me 24 'extra' keyz, of which i've only to date used a few ! ( to make the missing f11, f12, esc, printscr, scrollock )
asciilifeform: the rest, yet unused, because in a shithole, rather than where i want'em
mod6: speaking of special keys in the middle, i suppose one could remap all of the maltron keys into the middle.
asciilifeform: this even with not having to use x configs for anything, as i have custom micro in there with custom fw
asciilifeform: not being able to physically relocate the keys, is frustrating.
mod6: i considered getting one of these, but i wanted to try the concave thing first on something ~half the cost.
asciilifeform: ( i would , for instance, put a whole column of -- yes, modal!111 -- bitsetter 'metas' b/w the left-F block and `/tab/ctrl/shift/ctrl
asciilifeform: )
asciilifeform: e.g. 'greek', 'graph', 'rus/lat'
asciilifeform: while we're on 'ideals', it'd be also spiffy to have a kbd with ~0~ plastic anywhere.
mod6: like all alum or steel?
asciilifeform: stainless.
asciilifeform: or better yet, inconel.
mod6: if anyone could make one, it'd be you.
asciilifeform: well not me, but a similar d00d who lives longer.
asciilifeform: and with money.
asciilifeform: funny how folx will spend quadrillions on idiot veblenisms and 0 on actual quality.
asciilifeform: and then pete_dushenski et al are mega-surprised when they buy porche and it's plastic.
mod6: looks like they make stainless keyboards for industrial use
asciilifeform: rubber domes inside, mod6
asciilifeform: i have one in storage.
asciilifeform: they are used in 'internet kiosks' etc.
mod6: ah
asciilifeform: idea being 'vandal-proofing' rather than finest-kbd-money-can-buy
mod6: gotcha
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661370 << They do indeed. Three point hitch. For small applications sleeve hitch and weight work. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 01:44 mircea_popescu: plowing tractors have special hydraulics to keep it in. lot of force, more than the pull.
BingoBoingo: lol, gabriel proposes alf secretary for a single benji while declining recurring and unbounded income to audience he proposed
trinque: pretty sure the chatter about this or that grandiose item is the whole bag.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661455 << ahahaha sec! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 03:08 mod6: !~later tell gabriel_laddel_p Let me know how much entropy you'd like, I'll run ent test & dieharder against it, let you decide if you want it. I'll ask 0.1 BTC per Gb. What is your bid?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661461 << boatwright will still require good quality wood, and other things. and making a boat (unless it's viking style, which is no good in ocean) requires ~a lifetime. the limit on the age of sail was early industrial process. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 03:16 asciilifeform: exactly like how mircea_popescu gets food finer than the finest, costliest cook could reliably make for him for money
mircea_popescu: basically you picked the simplest one thing that dun work.
mircea_popescu: no man ever made a galleon, you understand, nor a manowar. these are made by 100s of people labouring over long hard years.
mircea_popescu: what man can make with own two hands i have seen, it's a pleasure to ride, it sells for loads of money, but to fuck in the thing you have to be young and she has to be flexible.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661567 << this has something to do with how http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661230 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 03:55 asciilifeform: funny how folx will spend quadrillions on idiot veblenisms and 0 on actual quality.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 00:56 asciilifeform: those aristos died of stupidity-- thinking that they were exempt from having to learn about money, similarly to modern brahmins 'exemption' from crypto
mircea_popescu: those dudes DID in fact pursue all sorts of (their version of) actual quality.
mircea_popescu: but had no clue of money.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661455 << ahahaha sec! << heheh, think it's a bad idea? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 03:08 mod6: !~later tell gabriel_laddel_p Let me know how much entropy you'd like, I'll run ent test & dieharder against it, let you decide if you want it. I'll ask 0.1 BTC per Gb. What is your bid?
mod6: Anyway, for that kinda asking price, i'd figure he could buy a bunch for himself anyway.
BingoBoingo: But will he ever see the numbers YOURS produced in that GB?
BingoBoingo: How many eons will he have to run his many potential FG to collide over a GB of data yours produced?
BingoBoingo: How many universes will be born and die in that time"
BingoBoingo: ?
mod6: ya lost me there.
mod6: anyway, the -otc days maybe came and went a long time ago. so gabriel_laddel_p might be sol.
mod6: anyway, im wiped.
mod6: night!
trinque: "Suggested for you ?? Houston's top prostitution hot spots" >> not bad, google news
trinque: finally worth a damn
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661290 << i can relate (in that I hate this world and everybody in it -- really. everybody. to be alone and sustaining would be heaven), and the answer is the Bible. I'm not saying you should stop doing the great work that you do. but that there is relief in the way you dream of in the world that is to come, if you are made to believe. If God could change my mind on this matter (which he did, i wa ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 01:15 asciilifeform: 100% physically closed cycle, motherfuckers, on mars, if i could!1111
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661461 << i eat this well. I buy food at the "oh that's too expensive" health food store (rather than the chain super market), and I cook it all myself (which I am very good at). It is expensive, sorta -- if you don't factor in the health care I don't have to pay for (because I don't get sick). if i ever found a girl worth marrying i could easily teach her how to do same, and have similar setup to ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 03:16 asciilifeform: exactly like how mircea_popescu gets food finer than the finest, costliest cook could reliably make for him for money
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Do you grow any portion of your own food yet?
danielpbarron: no
BingoBoingo: It's an enjoyable past time. Plants take manure up front, but composted so less smell. Livestock constantly produces fresh smelly manure on the other avenue.
danielpbarron: the way i figure, i'm locked into this undesirable location enough with what technical goods i possess. if it got so bad i couldn't buy proper raw ingredients anymore, i'd be better off moving elsewhere anyway, which i would like to do before such an extreme situation
danielpbarron: but shopping and cooking takes a lot of time from my day. i'm sure gardening would take more time than my shopping
BingoBoingo: Still, an indeterminate type tomato in a planter is hard to turn into a -ev proposition. "Juliet" cultivar in a 14 inch container produces a lot of produce
shinohai: Tomatoes (or the smallest of gardens, for that matter) have never been -ev thing for me, ever.
danielpbarron: that's true, i could probably do tomato with ease. and I recently got into making my own red sauce so this might be worth considering
BingoBoingo: And if it exceeds parachute's weight limit, minimal pain should you abandon it.
danielpbarron: what do you recommend for seed sources?
BingoBoingo: Look into Juliet, San Marzano, and Roma in that order.
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Burpee's fine
danielpbarron: hm, ok
BingoBoingo: For seed sources you just want true to type, high germination rate, and no shitty extras
BingoBoingo: This late in the season in your neck of the woods probably safest to get a plant that's already started. One or two of the ubiquitous "Bonnie" 4 in peat pot starter plants would be fine and run ~2.50-4 USD a piece and give you a roughly 2 month head start.
BingoBoingo: At that size it will have outgrown any objectionable pesticides by the time its fruiting
BingoBoingo: And starting seeds can swiftly turn into the expensive part of very small scale tomato'ing
diana_coman planted cucumbers and the like last year simply for the child to see; not a lot of time spent on it, no
BingoBoingo: Nice
diana_coman: fwiw I have yet to meet someone who cooks for themselves who doesn't consider they cook "very well" (or better); it's when cooking for others that one can really tell whether they are good at it or not
BingoBoingo: anything come out of the sukes?
BingoBoingo: *cukes?
diana_coman: BingoBoingo, hm?
BingoBoingo: The cucumbers? Were any eaten?
diana_coman: ha ha, of course; kid got them from the plant, washed, ate, what
BingoBoingo: Awesome.
danielpbarron: yes that's true. when scaling up the ratios have to change a little.
danielpbarron: but i have made food for others and they agree it is good
danielpbarron: one of which is in the WoT
diana_coman: good; I'm just a bit surprised of all the emphasis here on ...cooking, lol; granted, I grew up with cooking being just usual everyday thing to do, just like waking up, washing etc but still
danielpbarron: also, i have eaten at every restaurant worth the mention in this state and i can say honestly my food is on par or better than the top three
diana_coman: and yes, 4 year old child routinely helps in the kitchen too, not a big deal; cutting stuff, mixing dough etc
danielpbarron: which perhaps says more of the horrible state of restaurants in this area. it shouldn't be the case that i can produce better than the professionals
diana_coman: I would agree with that, yes
diana_coman: BingoBoingo, the cucumber plant was actually quite a hero: made dozens of cucumbers BUT it grew them to full size/ripened them *one at a time*; not an easy task apparently to make wholesome things even under rather favourable conditions as it were
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/AA0E14A40E2D0C353FF9EFD8008DE6D88BB77D8EF900D6E1C0A8E319D83C2C6F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 29438546853896140597050345206079 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Charly Avital (Test2) <shavital@mac.com>; '
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661582 << this is screamingly irrelevant to modern world -- why the everliving fuck would i want to use wood ?! or to cut it by hand?!! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 05:33 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661461 << boatwright will still require good quality wood, and other things. and making a boat (unless it's viking style, which is no good in ocean) requires ~a lifetime. the limit on the age of sail was early industrial process.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661585 << these 'long hard years' people did not have laser cutters, water-jet cutters, ABS plastic & other modern nearly-indestructible (and intrinsically-buoyant ! in some cases) materials ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 05:33 mircea_popescu: no man ever made a galleon, you understand, nor a manowar. these are made by 100s of people labouring over long hard years.
asciilifeform: they did not have modern metallurgy, either ( there are metals that will laugh at a thousand years of salt water, e.g. hastelloy )
asciilifeform: all of this -- exists. and it did not, 100 yrs ago.
asciilifeform: hull, for instance, can be from epoxy.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661586 << you won't see a plastic boat , or one that is 8m wide, or pykrete, or any of the other technologies eschewed by the veblenists ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 05:34 mircea_popescu: what man can make with own two hands i have seen, it's a pleasure to ride, it sells for loads of money, but to fuck in the thing you have to be young and she has to be flexible.
asciilifeform: but there is nothing physically impossible about these.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661641 <<>> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661462 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:41 danielpbarron: which perhaps says more of the horrible state of restaurants in this area. it shouldn't be the case that i can produce better than the professionals
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 03:17 asciilifeform: there is ~nothing~ that can remotely hold a candle to craftsmanship-with-your-own-hands-for-your-own-fucking-self
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661644 << i probably oughta pollard-rho these and be done with it ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 11:18 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/AA0E14A40E2D0C353FF9EFD8008DE6D88BB77D8EF900D6E1C0A8E319D83C2C6F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 29438546853896140597050345206079 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Charly Avital (Test2) <shavital@mac.com>; '
asciilifeform: right now an entire day in the week is reversed for '8ball', and the result is always these, 'make the rubble bounce'
asciilifeform: imho it's a waste ( and it eats entire cpu core at all times also )
mircea_popescu: possibly yeah
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, dontcha wonder what ELSE will break when i pollard-rho and pollard-rhominusone ?! )
asciilifeform: all them folx who skimped on 'test p-1 and q-1'
mircea_popescu: could be interesting.
mircea_popescu: does sound like a better use of resources than further increasing 8ball.
asciilifeform: it's in the pipeline.
mircea_popescu: it's utility is mostly for small (ie, under 10^9 or something) factors imo
asciilifeform: more interestingly,
asciilifeform: there is a variant where you nail large-factored N, where p*q=n and p-1 or q-1 have small factors.
mircea_popescu: sure, complete description of already found vulnerable mods can't hurt.
asciilifeform: theoretically this set will include some (largeprime)*(largeprime) folx.
asciilifeform: who won't be killed in any other way.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661592 << not in principle. maybe the reserve is a little high, maybe the concept is too soon ; certainly he can't pay and it's somewhat dubious to explain why he should. but hey, gotta start sometime/somehow/somewhere. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 07:36 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661455 << ahahaha sec! << heheh, think it's a bad idea?
asciilifeform: ( after this, we can plug in gpg-on-winblowsrng and enumerate the set, then bust these... )
mircea_popescu: now THAT would be interesting.
mircea_popescu: debian is one thing. wintel... lolk.
mircea_popescu: i reallty wanna see if each and every eulora player actually gargles water.
asciilifeform: i've been exploring subj as part of the shitoshi question.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661594 << no but see, it's more of a trade barrier than anything. the whole point of geting preexisting data was that it'd be faster and cheaper than buying chip ; and since you already have it ... ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 07:36 mod6: Anyway, for that kinda asking price, i'd figure he could buy a bunch for himself anyway.
asciilifeform: microshit's rng has (as of xp3) 0 hardware component.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform definitely worth running on some of the more ocmmon luser architectures. very likely to discover 65536 wide keyspaces and shit.
asciilifeform: entirely function of something like 700 bytes of userland.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661604 << how's houston prostitution go ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 08:07 trinque: finally worth a damn
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661605 << wtf do i do now. was the line cut in the original also ? or did i actually an' for the first time since this thing exists lost some bits ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:09 danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661290 << i can relate (in that I hate this world and everybody in it -- really. everybody. to be alone and sustaining would be heaven), and the answer is the Bible. I'm not saying you should stop doing the great work that you do. but that there is relief in the way you dream of in the world that is to come, if you are made to believe. If God could change my mind on this matter (which he did, i wa
asciilifeform: missing in my log
asciilifeform: it got snipped.
asciilifeform: folx, don't use nonautoslicing irctrons.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron you gotta have a talk with your client, it's not ok to cut your overlong sentences, must send as multiline.
asciilifeform: ( the one on crapple, is known offender )
asciilifeform: 'palaver'
mircea_popescu: it's cut everywhere. confirmed.
mircea_popescu: and in other idle chatter : http://kingsandlegends.com/ is actually quite cool. very much what a browser game should be.
mircea_popescu: not to mention, i was some variation of "LordMircea" in pretty much every game I ever played since forever, cuz wtf you gonna do for a nick. eventually, nel mezzo del camin, reality actually alligned, and the fantastic pseudonym became simply descriptive. what can you do.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661612 << depends. a pig sty is no one's idea of a good time (well, with exceptions i think we have illustrated in the logs) ; but something like your own orchard is very strictly speaking land improvement, about same value as a pool (larger footprint though). they were used as such by the romans in their estate retreats, there's extant manuals, this is a well documented concept. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:27 danielpbarron: the way i figure, i'm locked into this undesirable location enough with what technical goods i possess. if it got so bad i couldn't buy proper raw ingredients anymore, i'd be better off moving elsewhere anyway, which i would like to do before such an extreme situation
mircea_popescu: vegetable garden is a lot more fun if you make girls work it naked. i would rate such an item above the orchard.
mircea_popescu: between these two, you've covered the (imo) proper and useful homemade substitution in the food chain. nothing wrong with buying meat from the butcher -- tho it helps immensely if he's an actual butcher, as opposed to an employee of some franchise.
mircea_popescu: this being the major consideration -- i hire a lawyer, i don't retain a law firm. i work with accountants, not with ernst and fucking young. i much prefer to interface with the "criminals" doing actual personal banking for customers (you know, "money laundering" folks, also mentioned in say http://trilema.com/2013/what-the-drug-trade-is-how-the-drug-trade-works-and-why-silk-road-didnt-work-and-didnt-matter/#selection-63.559-6
mircea_popescu: 3.677 ) rather than the idiot banks. and so on and so following, the key imo is to trade with independents rather than corporations.
mircea_popescu: and my idea, somewhat in the vein of http://trilema.com/2017/time-to-get-out-by-the-way/ and more generally bitcoin, is that if you stick to it, corporations wil lwither and die. they're one of those evils which can only breathe for as long as good men do nothing.
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, i have nfi who trb node 208.94.240.42 belongs to, but it's been stuck in the 300,000s for ~ages~
asciilifeform: at least several months, i think
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661616 << sauce, incidentally, is the killer. don't eat the shop shit, no matter whjat it is. homemade mayo takes five minutes once you learn how to make it ; white sauce is extremely easy to make, if scary ; tomato sauce certainly doable esp if you have a sane electric stovetop. that is ALL the sauces, everything else is combinations. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:29 danielpbarron: that's true, i could probably do tomato with ease. and I recently got into making my own red sauce so this might be worth considering
mircea_popescu: i do buy worchestershire, in fairness, but that's not properly speaking a sauce.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, in greece, https://archive.is/lLLfT >> '...the tax authorities will be able to issue online confiscation notices and immediately get their hands on the contents of safe deposit boxes, confiscating cash, precious stones, jewelry and so on. They will also be able to confiscate shares and other securities.'
mircea_popescu: whereas all prepackaged sauce is the same endless variation of "let's see which ways we could flavour margarine / substitutes"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lel.
asciilifeform: this in re 'what happens when you use banks'
mircea_popescu: venezueece.
mircea_popescu: eh, i've yet to meet a greek that used their banks.
mircea_popescu: maybe i don't get out enough.
asciilifeform: for all i know, it's the american expats, who do it
asciilifeform: there are idiots anywhere.
mircea_popescu: prolly. or russian.
mircea_popescu: though from experience russians a) never go alone (unless female, in which case they dun keep the money there anyway, if they ever get it) ; b) sorta delegate one to keep the dough.
mircea_popescu: basically, the russians are jews.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661628 << ahahaah this is true innit. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:35 diana_coman: fwiw I have yet to meet someone who cooks for themselves who doesn't consider they cook "very well" (or better); it's when cooking for others that one can really tell whether they are good at it or not
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661640 << are you kidding me, i loved to fuck around the kitchen with my mom at that age. made all sorts of engineer pies, too! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:41 diana_coman: and yes, 4 year old child routinely helps in the kitchen too, not a big deal; cutting stuff, mixing dough etc
mircea_popescu: i suspect it should go in the "normal development handbook", 4-5 yo with no interest in mother kitchen activities is prolly under 80 iq.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661639 << wait, in ~connecticut~ ? they have pretty decent restaurants there, which were the top 3 ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:40 danielpbarron: also, i have eaten at every restaurant worth the mention in this state and i can say honestly my food is on par or better than the top three
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661643 << that's how they do it, like sicilians marry off the daughters. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 09:48 diana_coman: BingoBoingo, the cucumber plant was actually quite a hero: made dozens of cucumbers BUT it grew them to full size/ripened them *one at a time*; not an easy task apparently to make wholesome things even under rather favourable conditions as it were
jurov: *sigh* i keep getting calls from an UK number, as far as I understand, he's asking something about coinbr, when I ask them to come to irc/email he just says thank you. can't even fucking text, and not possible to call back
mircea_popescu: weird.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661645 << because a) wood is still, to this day, the better material for the purpose, in the sense lee sedol is the better go player. note that these WERE YOUR OWN CONSTRAINTS! you despise "made to rust iron bottoms", which is outright idiotic but in the common vein of "alf has no clue but figures he can have oppinion". you do not wish to pay the price of industrial process. you stirctly spe ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 13:32 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661582 << this is screamingly irrelevant to modern world -- why the everliving fuck would i want to use wood ?! or to cut it by hand?!!
mircea_popescu: raking said "i will use nothing but wood" yourself, as such.
mircea_popescu: and because b) everything else is harder to work with.
mircea_popescu: gotta decide if your idea is "nothing can beat self-same craftsmanship and i am willing to sink in the time" OR "i will sink in no time, give me whatever trhe fuck it is that takes no time and effort".
mircea_popescu: you can't have both of these at the same time, and duck behind one or the other depending which vein of solutions for your entirely psychogenic issue masquerading orally as a "technical problem" are being suggested.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661725 <- ofc he loves it; I suspect it's more about having a mother who ...cooks, you know; and in general the interest thing is really more like interest in ~anything close adult does ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 14:27 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661640 << are you kidding me, i loved to fuck around the kitchen with my mom at that age. made all sorts of engineer pies, too!
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yup. also in the strange properties of materials. i once spent a half hour pouring water from one reciipeint to another.
mircea_popescu: i think i was about 4.
diana_coman: oooh, yeah, did that playing with water and ~all pots and pans and anything else we could find, yeah; and he plays a LOT with water & ice, pouring&smashing etc
mircea_popescu: good, let him do it, that's one mess actually worth cleaning up.
diana_coman: not even a mess, he's good with it : on top of bath tub
diana_coman: he hates mess, lol
mircea_popescu: lol sounds like you got a Framedragger in your hands.
diana_coman: lol! neah, he's just... rather strict
mircea_popescu: are you encoraging teh tendency ?
diana_coman: no, not at all
diana_coman: but he is what he is and it's not as if I don't know the thing
mircea_popescu is entirely undecided whether it's good or bad trait.
diana_coman: quite on the contrary really - I rather push so that he sees alternatives are also *possible and fine*
diana_coman: not against it as such, but as ...alternative; not the end of the world etc
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661647 << neither do you. for that matter, these are not actually useful for craftsman ; they are useful for mass producer. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 13:33 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661585 << these 'long hard years' people did not have laser cutters, water-jet cutters, ABS plastic & other modern nearly-indestructible (and intrinsically-buoyant ! in some cases) materials
mircea_popescu: diana_coman a yeah, makes sense.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the places where craftsmanship makes sense are eg the tomato planters discussed above. yes they have tractors that plow, but these tractors do not plow planters. EXACT same principle applies making boats -- or for that matter silicone. you somehow seem to understand that if you want "artisanal computer" the correct approach is mechanical calculator ; and if you want oceanworth computer gotta have the foundry, ra
mircea_popescu: ther than some bits and pieces of a foundry installed in your kitchen.
mircea_popescu: boats are exactly thje same, which is why my http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661584 comment. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 05:33 mircea_popescu: basically you picked the simplest one thing that dun work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can get plastic panels from foundry.
mircea_popescu: as a substitute of drywall.
mircea_popescu: they're not rated for the fucking ocean.
asciilifeform: as substitute for idiot veblenwood.
asciilifeform: abs is ~indestructible.
mircea_popescu: plastic IS used in boatsmaking, but it is specially made plastic, for the purpose.
asciilifeform: as for epoxy, it is same one as in everybody's toolbox.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform problem is not how destructibvle it is, problem is that it's ~unjoinable. plastic boarts are generaslly whole hull.
asciilifeform: join with epoxy.
mircea_popescu: glhf.
asciilifeform: can buy by the tonne.
mircea_popescu: one day i want to see your "plain glass lenses cemented with cyanoacrylate -- it's transparent!!1" collection of telescopes.
mircea_popescu: i bet it shows one hell of an astronomical world.
asciilifeform: aaactually
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-13#1655405 << ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-13 22:02 asciilifeform: and holyfuq, the norland thing took almost hour of uv to cure, vs the advertised 10sec
asciilifeform: point is, i can and do routinely make, with own hands, items otherwise thought to be 'megabux, megawatt' ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615434 ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
asciilifeform: all you gotta do is to piss on 'best practice'.
mircea_popescu: there's no argument against that ; nor is there any argument against the principle.
mircea_popescu: but just because you're the prince of alflandia does not mean you can simply walk into an unknown barrio and talk smack at the locals.
mircea_popescu: which is what you're doing. you wanna go there, go there. intel, muscle, the works.
asciilifeform: at the veblenwood folx? yes i can.
mircea_popescu: no, at the "boat making" folks.
asciilifeform: they're ridiculous.
asciilifeform: golden toilet people.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what veblenwood is supposed to be, nor is it part of this conversation.
asciilifeform: the wood that a proper boat supposedly 'must' be made of.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you'll need more basis for that besides "i'm alf and i dun like it". the ocean's been there longer than you have.
asciilifeform: instead of abs.
mircea_popescu: how did you pick abs rather than i dunno, duralumin ?
mircea_popescu: this bad habit of having a firm idea of the solution to a problem you don't either understand or bother specifying.
asciilifeform: cuts with laser economically.
asciilifeform: and -- floats.
asciilifeform: unsinkable.
mircea_popescu: oh i see, you're one of those, will build spaceship out of cheese and power with fresh milk because you got a dairy farm ?
mircea_popescu: vorwarts, soviet!
jurov: why they don't build houses with plastic sheets and epoxy, then?
mircea_popescu: jurov or girlfriends.
asciilifeform: jurov -- i live in a mostly plastic house..
mircea_popescu: and love it.
mircea_popescu: oh wait, you don't love it, but it's cheap.
mircea_popescu: o no wait, it's not cheap either.
mircea_popescu: alfie... you gots a problem here.
asciilifeform: not cheap because lizards pocket the cost diff
asciilifeform: strictly.
mircea_popescu: you mean the same lizards who provide the fire dept services your "house" utterly needs ?
mircea_popescu: tell you what, if boats were made of plastic the MTBS would be a week, and the "lizards" runnin the coast guard would charge you.
asciilifeform: lolneeds, if it ever caught fire, poseidon could not put it out.
mircea_popescu: next one over.
asciilifeform: same.
mircea_popescu: no. this is what fd does in "ourdemocracy" : like in latin empire, demolishes the one on fire to save the ones not yet caught.
mircea_popescu: and they ALSO charge what that cost in rome. ~whole value of house.
mircea_popescu: things work the way they work because that's the way they work not because alien dragons from outer space.
asciilifeform: crypto. QED
jurov: btw, why not just raft from pet bottles?
asciilifeform: jurov: trololol
mircea_popescu: ostensibly doesn't fit a queen bed.
asciilifeform: or keep books dry.
mircea_popescu: though honestly, could also be made of pet bottles, arranged the other way. that'd help buoyancy!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform get larger pets for books.
mircea_popescu: could build an entire ~sub, nothing but bottles
mircea_popescu: truly unsinkable, also, because so what if you lose a few cells.
asciilifeform: if this is an argument, bottle is a boat
mircea_popescu: this is way the fuck better than anything you came up with so far, and we're not even trying. nor pretending to be keeping a blog about it, a la orlol.
asciilifeform: saying dun make it so.
mircea_popescu: yeah, exactly.
asciilifeform: fact : boat != wood, and din have to cut by hand.
mircea_popescu: eh, again with this. no, boat != wood. boat AS DEFINED BY ALF, however, = wood.
asciilifeform: 'what i say 3 times is true', classic mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: remember ? you didn't like the correct solution (metal) because... you don't have a cnc mill. and that's a fucking criteria in design now, what the fuck engineer has lying about and perceives underutilized, esp if he happens to thin kit's cvool.
asciilifeform: because rust
mircea_popescu: then you come and whine about all the boost in bitcoin and all the java everywhere. guess what ? they were building alfboatsd
mircea_popescu: abs floats!!1
asciilifeform: aerated.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because your brain dun work. half the roofs in the world are made of metal, no rust. if you get operated on they'll uyse what, fucking abs tools ? "oh, can cut with laser!11"
mircea_popescu: industrial corrosive contaioners are all metal, from 10 gallon milk jugs to what have you. rust my fucking left food omfg.
asciilifeform: teflonated, mir
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu:
mircea_popescu: hurr durr. buy a teflonating laser.
mircea_popescu: it'll be better for boatbuilding than the plastic cutting item.
asciilifeform: it doesn't hurt to do yer homework
mircea_popescu: dude...
asciilifeform: also i did not specify which laser. point is that it does not take '100 men, for years'
mircea_popescu: what doesn't ?
asciilifeform: boat
asciilifeform: of any reasonable size
phf: afaik they already build boats out of abs (cheap leisure boats, entry level yachts, as well as high end competitive stuff). in all cases it's different abs, and not necessarily stuff you buy from conveyer (stuff you buy from conveyer cracks)
mircea_popescu: the actual yacht which you can actually keep fucktoys on, which costs about 5 to 10 mn, does in point of fact take the labour of a thousand men over their lives. except we got tools to do it faster and cheaper.
mircea_popescu: phf no dude, you gotta do your homework.
mircea_popescu: to qualify in an argument with a fellow who routinely proceeds to idiocy on the level of "metal rusts" and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: and the most bitter fruit of this entire tree of idiocy being that in six months to a year, we'll be right back to "oh, orlol boat and lizzards are keeping the hydrogen engine under wraps".
phf: i know i know, this thread is extremely frustrating. it's your classic armchair trolling "if i was building my way would totally work" well build then "i don't have time to deal with this stuff, but everyone else is an idiot"
asciilifeform: detension with al rods, ferroconcrete style. no cracks.
mircea_popescu: you can't buy this off the shelf. panels my foot. which is WHY http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661768 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 14:52 mircea_popescu: plastic IS used in boatsmaking, but it is specially made plastic, for the purpose.
mircea_popescu: and no, you're not going to come off the cuff with something meaningful to say in that converesation, because you have no clue about the design space or the constraints. exactly like i have to tell you how a fucking tractor works to plow a fucking field. and so fucking on.
asciilifeform: has mircea_popescu ever built so much as a dog house with own hands?
mircea_popescu: no. but i have bought, you understand, BOUGHT boats and land and farms and horses and people and everything else. and i dun fucking like being george costanza, for random idiots to sell me "johnson rods" while fixing my car. so i spent my life essentially building endless lengthy lists of how everything works and why., EVERYTHING.
mircea_popescu: it may not be the end all be all, but if you fail to impress me with your idea, you don't have an idea. absolute minimum bar, the master's eye which fattens the cows.
asciilifeform: bought, bought, and therefore toilet MUST be gold
mircea_popescu: no. bought and for this purpose i have at least the basic idea of how shit works, and why. because i gotta know why am i paying this much.
asciilifeform: recall story of bauxite ?
mircea_popescu: which one ?
asciilifeform: aluminum going from preciousmetal to dirt
asciilifeform: sometimes 'pay so much' simply because this leap not yet made in $domain.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, the leap in domain was not made by courtiers sitting around going "i bet you could totally use the philosopher\s stone to make aluminum cheap"
mircea_popescu: as i said, the principle of technical improvements isn't at issue here. your miserable discoursive and i'm starting to fear mental habits are.
asciilifeform: how about mircea_popescu's mental habit of believing that the gods themselves made the sea as a toy for the rich,
asciilifeform: and that necessarily znO
asciilifeform: NO plastic devised,
asciilifeform: can change it
mircea_popescu: just consider the sad circumstance that you don't like x because of y property you happen to have heard of ; but you have no clue z has problem p. as a for instance, nobody seems to have ever mentuioned to you that plastic boats have a very fixed "open sea" time. and if you knew what it was you wouldn't like it. which is why rich people still buy wood yachts for pleasure.
mircea_popescu: which is also why whenever the boat is intended to stay unattended in blue water for mn seconds sort of thing, it's always metal.
mircea_popescu: and so on.
asciilifeform: 'maersk' et al are of steel because mass of containers
asciilifeform: not because steel endures in water ( wouldn't for a week, without plastic paint )
mircea_popescu: a boat a certain size has a certain mass. this is not related to anything else.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're taking a child's view of water. it's not the fucking proofing that's at issue, is structural problems induced by having a force vectror that's substantial, constant, and randomly changing direction. that's why metal excels, it can take random load like that. plastic can't. wood soprt-of can, maybe.
asciilifeform: plastic reinforced with, e.g., al, internally, can
asciilifeform: same as ferroconcrete.
asciilifeform: this however is a political thread : it is not because of mircea_popescu's deep study of plastics, and the strain forces exerted by the sea, that he takes his position, but because This Has Always Been And Therefore Must Always Be .
mircea_popescu: ferroconcrete deals with wind. plastic reinforced in the (expensive!) manner you describe might very well lose adherence because too much variance between the plastic and the spines, you'll end up with it being raked, practicvally. which is the point of the lens cement comment -- you must have VERY CLOSE materials. lest the mix gets warm or something.
asciilifeform: i know this because he did not start out with 'there exists NO suitable plastic, fool' but with vikings and galleons.
asciilifeform brb, tea
mircea_popescu: dude i wouldn't give less of a shit, for all i care every two bit social worker case can make a pile of garbage / empty bottles and go sailing into the sunset. what's it to me ?
mircea_popescu: i turn down more invitations to yacht!!! than i accept, by a large margin, and if i go it's cuz the girls and little more. who the fuck in his right mind wants to be on the ocean idly like that. island ++ lawds have mercy.
asciilifeform: actually i gotta agree with mircea_popescu on this last one, i do not properly grasp why it is popular as a pleasure vehicle
mircea_popescu: cuz the poor man's mating strategy includes a "cop", which wortks by rarity, and an "isolate", which the ocean makes available.
asciilifeform: esp. the diesel type
asciilifeform: hm.
mircea_popescu: "hey, baby, what you doin' sat night ? wanna come to YACHT ?!?!" she's more likely to break her pomodoro dinner date to go on a yacht than vice versa. then it's a "well, i'm horny and there's only one dick here, i guess i like this guy. else i'm a whore. i'm totally not a whore though, so i really like him."
mircea_popescu: thassit.
asciilifeform: why 'poor man's' tho
asciilifeform: not exactly cheapest instrument
mircea_popescu: in all fields, whoever pays rent is the poor man.
asciilifeform: by this arg, chick is 'the rich man', pays 0..
mircea_popescu: every teen female starts life with this mindset, sure.
mircea_popescu: works out in practice as well as it does. anyway -- nothing wrong with poor man's solutions, iuf understood as such and used as part of an actually figured out plan.
asciilifeform: !~later tell BingoBoingo https://archive.is/16ccZ << qntra ?
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: <jurov> why they don't build houses with plastic sheets and epoxy, then? << If alf does PVC or CPVC he can skip the epoxy and go straight to solvent welding!
mircea_popescu: the principal advantage of the garbage raft is that the broken outer cells (and they will break) provide a sort of damming for the inner cells. might be worth money, this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why not straight to pykrete.
jurov: BingoBoingo: you mean toluene?
jurov: hempcrete!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cuz you want to save in linens by keeping the womenz naked which means tropical waters.
mircea_popescu: god help tyou if your makeshift item catches an arctic storm.
asciilifeform: pycrete battleship lasts for months at room temp, unplugged
asciilifeform: ( as was found during the prototype run )
mircea_popescu: oh, you only wanted to sail for months ? i had nfi.
asciilifeform: don't unplug.
mircea_popescu: ...
asciilifeform: now, how many watts it takes to keep the thing solid, asciilifeform does not know
asciilifeform: it will vary with size/shape.
asciilifeform: and sea temp.
mircea_popescu: well, you know the phase heat of water, so...
asciilifeform: pykrete ain't ice though, the sawdust is strong insulator
mircea_popescu: alf will bombard maryland from atop his nuclear pykrete submersible aircraft.
asciilifeform: seadirigible.
asciilifeform: subterrine.
jurov: (*) submersible only once
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: subterrine de gascogne!
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> the wood that a proper boat supposedly 'must' be made of. << There are good reasons for this must. Things grow in water that eat lesser woods. Alternative is PT boat that is going to leach preservative everywhere and then get ate by the sea
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: inconel foil.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo his device wouldn't fucking dare.
jurov: petbottle raft plated with aluminium can foil, yay
asciilifeform: who said aluminum foil ?
jurov: inconel too expensive, no?
asciilifeform: expensive, but not necessarily 'too', if gives the coveted 100year hull.
asciilifeform: there's the good kind of expensive, and the raytheon kind.
mircea_popescu: eh get out, it'll separate, breach and shed.
BingoBoingo: <jurov> BingoBoingo: you mean toluene? << Whatever's in the little containers they sell at every plumbing supply store
mircea_popescu: lol check out where the political discussion was actually to be found. alf wants the elements to enlist in tmsr, help behead empire.
asciilifeform: lol
jurov: let's bikeshed this. does tmsr have a flag to put on the dirigible?
mircea_popescu: notrly ;/
BingoBoingo: Anyways, there's good reason warships are still made with steel. Resists pirate gun.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you're missing the point -- maybe there's other people on the ocean you sail on, but on the ocean alf's boat would sail on there's nobody. that's why he's even doing this, to "put distance". this can be had for the asking, because really, world wouldn't fucking dare not satisfy such perfectly reasonable request.
mircea_popescu: also crypto QED so there is that.
mircea_popescu: not like the only fucking reason we even bother with math is that UNLIKE reality, it allows for large empty spaces.
asciilifeform: fact : there is more than one way to engineer. e.g., you can engineer for rich, industrious idiots ('raytheon' style). you can engineer for rich, lazy idiots (yachts from rare woods, with diesel motor). for poor, lazy idiots: 'mass' konsoomer electronics. for poor, industrious, smart folx -- can also engineer. but ~0 precedent to work from.
mircea_popescu: the categories aren't very clearly divided in practice ; and plenty of precedent.
mircea_popescu: why we even have leather shoes, for instance.
jurov: wasn't there plenty of precedent in ostblok?
jurov: like, cars to be finished at home
mircea_popescu: of building badly designed pet projects that didn't work irl but were reported to workl anyway ? o yeah.
asciilifeform: of building items that will still work 100yrs from now when 'west' is a bad memory -- also.
asciilifeform: and jurov laughs at 'car to be finished at home', but asciilifeform is entirely willing to convert 10,000 hrs of sweat into 0rent house.
asciilifeform: if the tech existed.
mircea_popescu: generally this "Finish at home" thing is very much related to fan extraction (as per http://trilema.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/#selection-73.120-73.157 ) in the sense that only items which are not actually ev are offered in this way.
mircea_popescu: at-home subsidizing. though in modernity that function is mostly covered by the inca.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, it is becoming clear that TMSR.boat prolly ought to be made out of nylon reinforced hydraulic cement with schedule 80 CPV reinforcing frame
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is only true if offered to sheeple with 0 skills
BingoBoingo: Patch with trowel
mircea_popescu: no. true universally.
asciilifeform: not everything is 'industrializable'.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo if ever driven into land -- doubles as house.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform everything that is OFFERED, to all comers, to "make themselves" is, definitionally, industrializable.
BingoBoingo: AHA, Plant flag exert soverign, COLLECT RENT from occupied territory
asciilifeform: it ain't 'to allcomers' though, but to folx with skill and will to assemble the thing.
asciilifeform: ever seen a 'heathkit' ?
mircea_popescu: those are all comers.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't say "all beings" , it says "all comers". they come on their own power, they're comers.
asciilifeform: !~google heathkit
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Heathkit: <https://www.heathkit.com/>; Shop | heathkit .com: <https://shop.heathkit.com/>; Heathkit - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathkit>
mircea_popescu: if i don't have to know anything specific about you, it's not a restaurant, it's a diner ; it's not a tailor, it's a pret a porter ; and it's not a skillful product, it's an item that's not worth building.
asciilifeform: lol some modern derp bought the name?!
asciilifeform: '-ev to produce en mass for konsoomers' != 'not worth building'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu of all people oughta grasp this
asciilifeform: a kit build ( and oughta be interpreted broadly, e.g. gentoo entirely counts ) lets folx convert their otherwise not-monetizable spare time, into a product, which in many cases they could never otherwise own
asciilifeform: ( and certainly could not own in the customized form in which they get it )
asciilifeform: think, e.g., 1970s micro comps.
asciilifeform: incidentally pretty good analogy -- a handful of very rich ~and eccentric~ folx had personally-owned pdp8, say; but many in fact thought 'computer is neato, but only good for accounting, i'll buy one for office', just as mircea_popescu immediately went 'yacht is for whoring, wtf, idiot, to think of living in one'
mircea_popescu: yeah, there are exceptions, such as notably "trainer items". you can buy sportscar kits these days for instancer, so rich kids can graduate from getting lego set for 6th birthday to getting a carbox on their 16th. by the time they get it together they have a permit too.
mircea_popescu: but this is just a different kind of -ev, no more.
asciilifeform: it ain't -ev from the pov of the one doing it, tho
mircea_popescu: also, if your spare time is not monetizable you are not a person and don't belong. i don't mean here, i mean living, at all. #1 reason to off self.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is, yes. same -ev as feeding your pets is.
mircea_popescu: it may be +epv, sure, but ev is ev.
mircea_popescu: and i've yet to meet a rich dude who had kids for which i'd pay to own what he paid to build.
asciilifeform: by same logic, say, mircea_popescu drinking fine whiskey is -ev -- he ain't getting any fatter, martian farmer looking on earthlings as cattle will say 'why this fine specimen is being fed non-nutritive thing'
mircea_popescu: it is.,
mircea_popescu: which is why i don't do consumption-on-credit.
asciilifeform: and yeah sure whatevers, folx who ain't mircea_popescu and can't make thousand btc / hr by farting in spare time, 'don't belong, oughta slice lengthwise!111' sure.
asciilifeform: no thread re rent is complete without this mega-insight.
mircea_popescu: there was no consideration given to amount. the argument was qualitative not quantitative.
mircea_popescu: if you "cant" do anything useful you're ~redditard/wikipedia editor/open source contributor etc. really, no reason to be here, no room for you here, go awya.
asciilifeform: but thread wasn't re 'anything'. was re, say, 10,000 hrs, of asciilifeform -- ain't worth , per market, what a livable boat costs. whereas theoretically could kit build.
mircea_popescu: this theory is how asciilifeform pays wash dc rents, also.
asciilifeform: lol, 'be happy with your stall and hay pile, worthless cattle' ?
mircea_popescu: no. but "x dun work, y theoretically might" is how cattle ends up in ranch.
mircea_popescu: of course it theoretically might. the theory is tailored to the intended audience. "by their lights" it seems to make sense.
mircea_popescu: and note that i didn't "immediately think". you asked me "what would be point of poorman yacht" and i correctly said whoring. rich people use them for sport, but i don't see you racing your concoction. if for no other reason then because regattas are always fulla hopeful hos, and generally very crowded.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's argument was not that 'plastic is strong enough', entirely possible that suitable materials do not yet exist. but that ~NOBODY is seriously working on the problem at all. ~nothing's been seriously tried.
asciilifeform: as soon as you mention 'regatta' you're dealing with entirely opposing engineering tradeoffs.
asciilifeform: that preclude 'living boat'.
mircea_popescu: how would you know who's working on the problem ?
asciilifeform: i wouldn't. for all i know, mircea_popescu works on it, in his dirigible, and never said a word.
asciilifeform: but -- ~0 public.
mircea_popescu: i'm not, nor do i give a shit. but by some definitions of "public" (ie, i'm lazy, let it come to me) fg is also not public. whereas what people are working on is not really the public's problem anyway.
asciilifeform: fwiw google et al, see it
mircea_popescu: maybe someone somewhere is working on this, maybe they aren't, it's not the sort of question ima decide sitting here.
asciilifeform: not (yet) blackholed.
asciilifeform: ergo public.
mircea_popescu: !~google some cool item with computers and shit
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: computer desk | Cool shit I want! | Pinterest | The o'jays, Awesome ...: <https://www.pinterest.com/pin/411868328392348642/>; 30 Things To Do When you are Bored and have a Computer: <http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2010/03/30-things-to-do-when-you-are-bored-and-have-a-computer>; ​The 20 Most WTF Magical Items in Dungeons & Dragons: (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform apparently not.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: hm, while we're at it,
mircea_popescu: well ? not like you're googling them by name wtf.
asciilifeform: !~google FUCKGOATS
jhvh1: asciilifeform: i fuck goats - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DAr_ezvLRxvE>; RobustPopehatAgenda on Twitter: "If you fuck goats because it ...: <https://twitter.com/popehat/status/833525845046071297%3Flang%3Den>; # fuckgoats hashtag on Twitter: <https://twitter.com/hashtag/fuckgoats>
asciilifeform: lol!!
mircea_popescu: heh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is a winner
asciilifeform: apparently it took'em this long, but finally done.
asciilifeform: desaparecido, nacht und nebel.
asciilifeform: !~yandex FUCKGOATS
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Error: "yandex" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: hm, can haz?
mircea_popescu: !~google FUCKGOATS TRNG
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: # trng hashtag on Twitter: <https://twitter.com/hashtag/trng>; No Such Labs (of Phuctor fame) releases hardware TRNG | Crypto: <https://voat.co/v/Crypto/comments/1451328>; ISIS Fighters Roll Across Iraq — Until They See the Peshmerga ...: <https://news.vice.com/article/isis-fighters-roll-across-iraq-until-they-see-the-peshmerga>
mircea_popescu: it's there.
asciilifeform: lol whossat
asciilifeform: aaah
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661744 << any kid ever did not do this ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 14:39 diana_coman: oooh, yeah, did that playing with water and ~all pots and pans and anything else we could find, yeah; and he plays a LOT with water & ice, pouring&smashing etc
jurov: http://www.bing.com/search?q=fuckgoats put nosuchlabs at first place
asciilifeform: lol!
asciilifeform: jurov: make sure to try it from a clean browser and previously-unjurov'd ip addr
mircea_popescu: microsoft likes alf, even if alf dun like it back
asciilifeform: evidently!11
jurov: i dont remember using anything microsoft from here
asciilifeform: jurov: bing per se , is the idea
jurov: http://archive.is/cEA1Q 2nd place
asciilifeform: ( incidentally every time i hear about it, i'm a little surprised that it still exists )
asciilifeform: at this point hard to be sure whether jurov sees it in 2nd place because he lives in that ip block
asciilifeform: which previously searched for $relateds, etc
jurov: no, i see it in 1st. archive.is on 2nd
asciilifeform: next you're in a new continent, jurov , try it from hotel terminal
asciilifeform: archive.is is exceptionally poor measure, by this token
asciilifeform seen his share of 'customized search results' liquishit
jurov: why? archive.is forwards my cookies or what?
asciilifeform: jurov: no, but fetches megatonnes of tmsr-related linx
asciilifeform: every day
mircea_popescu: jurov actually does request as forwarded from your ip.
asciilifeform: e.g. every time a phuctor hit is in the l0gz
mircea_popescu: that's why iot can even see google in the first place.
asciilifeform: that's an archive.is req.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dun take my word for it, make page that returns request and archive it.
asciilifeform: actually i have dulap log on dedicated display, and every phuctor hit in l0gz is a hit from same ip, belonging to 'archive'.
asciilifeform: ( rather than to, say, deedbot )
mircea_popescu: mmm
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661674 << was thinking there, for those who would want it, a model where guy asks for N bytes of entropy via FG. would generate N bytes. base64 encode the binary entropy file (similar to trb deps), place the sha512 output hash of the base64 decoded file along with the ent & dieharder output in a clearsigned message, then PGP encrypt it to the requester. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 13:58 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661592 << not in principle. maybe the reserve is a little high, maybe the concept is too soon ; certainly he can't pay and it's somewhat dubious to explain why he should. but hey, gotta start sometime/somehow/somewhere.
mircea_popescu: might work as a bot service. esp once trinque finishes payments.
mod6: maybe charge by the byte, or jiggabyte. something. have to figure out what the market is willing to bear as a price tho.
asciilifeform: mod6: and the folx who didn't pay, cannot distill entropy from your ciphertext because ..?
mircea_popescu: i suspect most of the .1 btc you came up with is payment friction, rather than anything else.
asciilifeform: esp. considering that we aren't speaking of cryptographic (noshit!) entropy, but, for, e.g., montecarlo
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they can distill it from their keyboard, if that's what they want.
mircea_popescu: could take the logs and sha them a billion times, whatever.
asciilifeform: no, they get ~same amount as if paid.
asciilifeform: and ~same quality.
mod6: well, i figured, im not really sure I do this anyway, but lets make a market. i'll say .1, he'll say .0001 and somewhere, we hvae price discovery.
mircea_popescu: not at all.
mircea_popescu: you don't know what stupid shit gpg does to it while encrypting.
asciilifeform: aes.
mircea_popescu: no. gpg.
mod6: anyway, just throwing it out there.
mircea_popescu: you recall, the item with the sha-1 "fingerprints" etc.
asciilifeform: which is 'whitening' if the starting material is 0000....000 , but doesn't hurt if trng.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this doesn't touch the payload
mircea_popescu: you can not promise gpg is just aes. neither can they.
asciilifeform: the payload is an aes256 of the input, key (irrelevant to this gedankenexperiment) lives in the headers yes
mircea_popescu: iuf thyey want prng, they can has. if they do not, they can has. rest is really not my problem.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: offering trng output for someone to download, for money, or otherwise, is intrinsically promisetronic
asciilifeform: he has no way of determining where or how you came up with it.
mircea_popescu: if they're happy with hash(x) can get entropy right now by curl google.com > sha512sum.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and fucking is also intrinsically promisetronic. so what of it ? most of the things we do and enjoy are founded onm promise.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i'd imagine price'd work out to somewthing like double the commercial cost of bw, or somesuch.
asciilifeform: while we're on subj, i'll say that there is probably a good reason why most commercial faux-rng makers don't offer a sample download.
mircea_popescu: maybe so.
mircea_popescu: 7393bd23794cf8175da5d2dd3f3bb47a7c340bf20cc6ef1f5dd871204119d86988e37b0e32c9b7665a05bd3912a8f83f3bebe3c2c7fc20ff177219ef35c47c25 << random number based on curl http://btcbase.org/log/ | sha512sum ; as primo as it gets!
asciilifeform: lol bitcorrelated
mircea_popescu: awww. AES!!1
asciilifeform: not so aes
asciilifeform: there are gradations of idiocy. merely re-arranging the bits does not induce correlation.
asciilifeform: where previously there was none.
asciilifeform: think, destructive vs nondestructive transform.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 i'd imagine price'd work out to somewthing like double the commercial cost of bw, or somesuch. << sure, something. > than 0 tho.
asciilifeform: neither will create entropy from thin air. but one destroys, other -- not
shinohai: Afternoon. mod6 o/
mod6: and as far as "sample" perhaps that's not how it works. maybe like via trinque's thing or something. but i agree, there is some sort of model here.
mod6: hi shinohai!
asciilifeform: mod6: whichever model you go with, beggars are probably not the target market
asciilifeform: i dun think anyone ever got rich, by pitching to'em
asciilifeform: ( though i'm prepared to hear from mircea_popescu how even this, is not so )
mod6: i can't know who would want this, but i'd imagine i wouldn't discriminate on who would want it. just as long as they PAY.
mod6: there is a bar to entry. the bar is N btc high.
mircea_popescu: might be a market in "Certified entropy" simply because of how bureaucracy works.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc we had thread, las vegas runs 100% on usg-supplied prng (yes, prng) boxes, welded shut
mircea_popescu: kinda how this works. by the timpe peopple pay bots here for rng, we're simply owning the world and no more. which is why i said maybe premature.
asciilifeform: on the other, historic end of things, we have the infamous https://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1418/index2.html
mod6: fair enough
asciilifeform: 'A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates' (dead tree!)
mircea_popescu: apparently worth 20 bux / mb or w/e
trinque: asciilifeform: in re beggers and target market, folks did get rich owning the world, as mircea_popescu said
mircea_popescu: pretty much only reliable way.
trinque putting a great deal of thought into the payment thing precisely because that sort of side channel is likely to be the unwashed masses way to pay, forevermore
asciilifeform: trinque: elaborate plox
mircea_popescu: likely. that , eu coppers, etcetera.
trinque: thread's been had a couple times, ^
asciilifeform: link?
mod6: yeah, could even be an eulora auction daily
trinque: lords move gold and peons move digits in db
mircea_popescu: mod6 i can't imagine lobbes 's have any issue lending the bot, once this is all in place.
mircea_popescu: it's what it's for after all.
mod6: i actually looked at it lastnight to see if I could start my own auction for this exactly.
mircea_popescu: sure you can
mircea_popescu: (auction <opening bid (coppers)> <duration (hours)> <item/lot>) -- e.g. !Qauction 3,5mn 2 57 IMP CH, d 32197 ea
mod6: put up 1.5Gb of entropy... start the bidding at say 1mn ecu
mod6: or 10mn whatever.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1539113 << >> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1539116 loller ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 03:53 trinque: there was another thread where it was discussed that the common person would merely operate out of an account held by his lord, and everyone bobbled heads at that because the framing felt good.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 03:53 mircea_popescu: well if it's discussed with slavegirls and a great pink fuzzy harem with soft velvety marbles and foggy complex pools... then yes@
trinque: can't find original, just a ref
trinque: this though seems in line with the fact that not everyone owns his own ass.
mircea_popescu: original is likely the trilema piece about "Future of bitcoin", predicting how people are going to do the most stuipid thing, and explaining how it's not for fucking sneakers.
trinque: aha, undoutably trilema first
mod6: and ask like that might never catch a bid, but market will meet somewhere, will sell into highest bids, etc.
asciilifeform: mod6: pretty easy to undercut to death tho
mircea_popescu is vaguely amused at how wanna-be ronin slavegirl imagines "there's a lo of cryptocurrencies now". ie, there's n oconspiracy needed, the poor idiots will simply HALLUCINATE the poor idiot world. be it there or not.
mod6: yup. indeed. there are many fgs, and lots of enterprising people out there.
trinque: mircea_popescu: important point that, otherwise folks run around thinking bitcoin will fix all the social problems by itself.
asciilifeform: mod6: so only question of time before price goes to 0 and stays there permanently.
trinque: teh "anarchocapitalist" fucktards and so on.
asciilifeform: rather like 'price of porn'
mircea_popescu: maybe. though this would be more like "price of lap dance". which is not 0.
mod6: food for thought.
asciilifeform: lap dance works on 1 lap at a time
mod6: but it's crossed my mind a number of times since i started testing these things.
asciilifeform: montecarlo-grade rng bits -- inf.
mircea_popescu: so does signed and encrypted rng sample.
mircea_popescu: if they share them or not... hey, they don't share fucking textbooks.
asciilifeform: separate q.
mircea_popescu: point remains, you can watch some guy gettiung a lapdance for free. same here, won't have your name on it, that's all.
asciilifeform: anyone recall the ancient 'pgp key generating service' ?
shinohai staring at teaser tits ..... "I'd like to buy your most expensive bottle of champagne"
asciilifeform: 'wallet inspector'
asciilifeform: the value of promisetronically engraved 'your name on it' is ~0.
shinohai: asciilifeform: igolder used to do that I think.
shinohai: https://www.igolder.com/PGP/generate-key/
asciilifeform: lol!
trinque: heh.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perceived value is the question.
mircea_popescu: which is why the entire "own the world" item earlier.
asciilifeform: aaah 'perceived values', yes, that's three doors down from asciilifeform . right next to where they make the plastic 'bitcoins' and plastic porches etc.
asciilifeform: can't help, there.
shinohai: That entire site is a lulz farm, and was proffered as the easiest way to do gpg on reddit darknet,makets page
trinque: asciilifeform: how do you square that with other threads where "will someday be rare to own a computer"
mircea_popescu: im sure it is the easiest.
shinohai: Sure, what could possibly go wrong?
asciilifeform: trinque: that was in re industrial collapse
asciilifeform: trinque: fwiw i intend to be quite dead, also can't help.
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure what this is about. you have some sort of objection to other people platying with the bots or ?
asciilifeform: nope.
trinque: just sounds like it comes from a notion of flat social topology
asciilifeform: but will observe that both sellers of rng bits, and esp. buyers, are a little 'off their rockers' imho.
mircea_popescu: i can conceive that i'd trust x to rng more than i'd trust myself, in some conditions.
asciilifeform: now i'm curious
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: elaborate re hypothetical conditions ?
mircea_popescu: i'm somewhere with a laptop.
mircea_popescu: should i need entropy i'd rather wotbuy it than os-"make" it
mircea_popescu: not at 0.1 btc, certainly, but as mod6 points out, not 0 either.
asciilifeform: FG easily fits in sack with laptop neh.
mircea_popescu: if it did fit, it did fit, and if it didn't fit it's not there.
trinque: thread can be generalized to cost-benefit-analysis of establishing trust vs handcrafting
trinque: just like the boat thing
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: and obviously "oh but x could backstab you". yes, he could. and in the process give me proof he did.
mircea_popescu: very manageable risk.
asciilifeform: cryptocompromise as a 'manageable risk' under any scenario is imho lunacy.
asciilifeform: quite conceivably 'proof that he did' will be delivered to your smoking crater, and won't do much good.
trinque ranks "I live in an arena where men stand on their names." as only dream
asciilifeform: e.g. admiral yamamoto.
mircea_popescu: rng is not === crypto
asciilifeform: for montecarlo then ?
mircea_popescu: maybe i wanna play some browswer game.
trinque: gotta then have the game, and have people cut down on reputation, and etc
asciilifeform: for game, most folx seem happy with porcelain, prng, rather than platinum, trng, toilet. but hey - who wants, can sell, buy.
asciilifeform: i buy barrels of water. can laugh at it just the same.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: "water -- literally falls from the sky, and he BUYS it." afghan would have a lulz.
asciilifeform: try an' drink what falls from sky here.
lobbes: (+mircea_popescu) mod6 i can't imagine lobbes 's have any issue lending the bot, once this is all in place. << yeah, no issue here. I'd be honored to have genuine entropy traded via bot
mircea_popescu: afghan dun know.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the overarching point is that risk per se is not the problem. unmanageable risk, of the sort that arises in poorly defined situations, is the problem. which is why open source is fundamentally useless, be it in the fdorm of ubuntu, or wikipedia. who do i negrate ?
mircea_popescu: "the whole thing, mp" "yeah well, that happened three seconds in."
mircea_popescu: old царь-государь press law was plain : author, responsible ; if can't be found, editor ; if can't be fouind , owenr ; if can't be found - typograpgher.
mircea_popescu: the principle is solid : the fact that someone from stanford published a shitty piece means THE WHOLE USG is now negrated, if there's not a lower node to negrate.
asciilifeform: there was this one time, however, when great persian царь-государь xerxes, negrated the sea...
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: like all other blades, this one worx best when sharp.
mircea_popescu: which is why "open source" is fundamentally useless. the poor idiots trying to hallucinate the poor idiot world where they can't be cut down for being poor idiots.
mod6: lobbes: cool :]
asciilifeform: in other quasi-noose, http://shop.voipdistri.com/Embedded-board-und-Mini-PC-System-bundle/Embedded-Boards-633/Deciso-Netboard-A10-Embedded-Motherboard---BIG-performer--low-power--AMD-next-generation-G-Serie-SOC-Chipset.html << possible 3rd board that worx with sage.
asciilifeform: if anyone gets hold of one & tries -- plz post.
asciilifeform: ^ with dram socket !!
asciilifeform: minus: intel nics.
asciilifeform: !!up NoMyName
deedbot: NoMyName voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: NoMyName: Who is your daddy and what does he do?
NoMyName: My daddy is dead, but he was a very fine doctor, and taught me the value of knowing things.
BingoBoingo: Ah, sad to hear.
NoMyName: I have seen your name everywhere in the blogs of record. Bingo! Boingo! Are you a person, or a bot?
BingoBoingo: I am a man! I am a newsman!
NoMyName: otay, that was not a bot answer...
jurov: https://www.sony.com/electronics/digital-paper-notepads/dpt-rp1 << iirc asciilifeform wanted e-ink device?
NoMyName: Ok, I know what a lemma is, I have had the occasional quandry, I don't know what the three premises are?
BingoBoingo: But yes, I am indeed not a bot.
asciilifeform: jurov: i have a large collection of various einktrons
asciilifeform: 1650 x 2200 is nothing to write home about, tho
NoMyName: $700 for a pad with one function?
asciilifeform: esp if it has the usual snail refresh
trinque: not a bad resolution for fonts.
trinque: only use I'd have for such a thing
asciilifeform: i already have lcd toys with that res tho
asciilifeform: that work in full colour and <10ms refresh.
trinque: hm, and e-ink?
asciilifeform: i also see 0 mention of os
asciilifeform: now if this were a comp, WITH A KEYBOARD, that ran for month+ on 1 battery charge -- then yes, it'd have a point
asciilifeform: (supposing the comp were gentooable, rather than 'chromebook' etc liquishit)
asciilifeform: 'Digital Paper Application is required for synchronization and document transfer between Digital Paper and PC. USB connection required to install the Digital Paper application on your PC.' << srsly?!
asciilifeform: jurov, why didja link this, it's a turd.
asciilifeform: even 'amazon' does not stoop this low.
jurov: i hoped you say it can be rooted or something
asciilifeform: in all fairness, sony is infamous for this, i had their original prs500
asciilifeform: after it was cracked properly
asciilifeform: jurov: if you get the thing rooted plz lemme know
asciilifeform: i know folx who might like it.
Framedragger: from initial glance looks like (unrooted version) works *just* with pdfs?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: didja read the quoted text ?
asciilifeform: $closedturdapplication is required to sync...
asciilifeform: != 'just works'
Framedragger: aha i guess that's the main uh political bottleneck
Framedragger: myeah.
asciilifeform: for starters.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/05/media-attacks-montana-candidate-for-defending-self-against-physical-assault-by-goon/ << Qntra - Media Attacks Montana Candidate For Defending Self Against Physical Assault By Goon
BingoBoingo: ^ 4 alf
asciilifeform: neato BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: In other news negrodamus finished sync experiment a few days ago for a roughly 6 month sync time in the wild with spinning rust. Is at present mostly keeping up (i.e. 3 blocks behind atm)
jurov: i had and experiment too, in 3 months went up to 420k blocks, but found out the cheapo ssd failed
jurov: total_lba_writen about 40T
asciilifeform: jurov: what make of ssd was it ?
jurov: patriot spark 256g
jurov: waiting in warranty claim atm
Framedragger: on facebook archiving: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/3086
Framedragger: (jason scott)
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers! http://nosuchlabs.com updated .
asciilifeform: this is not intended to rain on mod6 et al's parade, but rather in re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1662086 . ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 17:42 asciilifeform: while we're on subj, i'll say that there is probably a good reason why most commercial faux-rng makers don't offer a sample download.
asciilifeform: honest rng maker has 0 to be afraid of from posting arbitrarily large sample.
asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/fg/nosuchlabs_FG_1024MB_phreesample.txt , http://nosuchlabs.com/fg/nosuchlabs_FG_1024MB_phreesample.bin .
Framedragger: oooh nice. /me yet to generate 1gb+ of entropy, will post when that's done
trinque: imma just xor all your posts together for the rest of my life.
trinque: I like to live dangerously
Framedragger: "still better than urandom"
trinque: heh probably so.
jurov: idea: what about providing fuckgoat output in realtime, as tcp stream. maybe i'll do when i get some
asciilifeform: jurov: not a bad idea. and maybe you'll even discover some zeroblockpadding bug, a la the dd thing
jurov: um...signing that would be problematic, then
asciilifeform: in tcp
asciilifeform: you could buffer it and sign parcels prior to transmission
asciilifeform: ( or after, whichever. )
Framedragger: i guess no way to use luby code or equivalent on tcp huh
asciilifeform: what would that do, Framedragger ?
mod6: <+asciilifeform> ACHTUNG, panzers! http://nosuchlabs.com updated . << lol
Framedragger: asciilifeform: on second thought, i didn't have an idea in mind. i just thought "huh, how to have continuous/streaming verification of data, i.e. not have to send data in signed *chunks* (if want to have verified/signed data)"
Framedragger: (but that's not even luby codes, right)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: i know of no such algo
asciilifeform: and suspect that it cannot exist.
Framedragger: right :(
Framedragger: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-24/ecb-warns-of-dangers-of-ripple-effect-from-house-price-boom 2008 called! "Exuberant house price developments in certain regions could, in principle, threaten the stability of financial institutions with mortgage exposures concentrated in those regions"
Framedragger: youdontsay!
mircea_popescu: whoa, some lightning strikes the likes of which...
mircea_popescu: i think they took a up down the street
mircea_popescu: took a tree*
mircea_popescu: Framedragger it's just "in principle", aka "only happens to niggers, couldn't happen here, we're pravoslavniks!"
asciilifeform: jurov: the problem posed is quite reminiscent of ye olde 'provably fair casino' thread of '14
asciilifeform: jurov: afaik no solution is known , aside from the familiar 'prng and seed published at the end of the day/week/whichever'
asciilifeform: ( and then you're stuck with a prng, with the attendant consequences )
asciilifeform: the reproducible ~t~rng is a contradiction in terms.
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-24#1661136 is probably as close as anybody could hope to get, to it ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-24 22:16 asciilifeform: previously i thought that you could not have an auditable single-crystal rng, but possibly this is not so : if you make it so that only co-incident (on 2 detectors) gamma is picked up, you can 'yoke'-audit 2 units by placing back to back around test source.
asciilifeform: 'Facebook is the third of what is probably a quartet (or quintet) of the destruction of the innocence of computing. First was viruses, second was malware, third is facebook. I suspect fourth will be related to control of networking itself, and fifth will be licensing of high level computer ability. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves.' << mega-lulzy, ty Framedragger
mircea_popescu: except that if is nonsense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand?
mircea_popescu: " only co-incident (on 2 detectors) gamma is picked up" requires i break fundamental qm.
asciilifeform: not necessarily
asciilifeform: gamma photon can set off 2 detectors, one after the other
mircea_popescu: really ?
asciilifeform: like nazi bullet
mircea_popescu: and how do you know if it did ?
asciilifeform: ( where famously tie-two-jews-together-to-use-1bullet )
mircea_popescu: if it interacts, it changes. after it set one, no longer same gamma photon.
asciilifeform: you know because they're X/c apart
mircea_popescu: lol.
asciilifeform: now i keep waiting for mircea_popescu to say 'you would use beta decay, fool'
mircea_popescu: this is almost better than the nuclear pykrete submersible aircraft.
asciilifeform: because you actually ~do~ get 2 geometrically opposite emissions
asciilifeform: and i actually had this device, and used every day, at one time
asciilifeform: commercial scintillation counter
mircea_popescu: you will... know because you measure the distance, and because no masking epiphenomena may exist ? really ? because your clocks work so well that they can be used against photons themselves, and calipers ditto ?
asciilifeform: with 2 opposite photomultiplier tubes
asciilifeform: fughet the gamma.
mircea_popescu: YOU SAID GAMMA.
asciilifeform: aite, if mircea_popescu insists, it can be made to work with gamma. and yes, clock is sufficiently repeatable. visit gun shop, get laser distance meter.
asciilifeform: works on this principle, does not need mega-clock.
asciilifeform: analogue.
mircea_popescu shrugs. go right ahead.
asciilifeform: or visit spy shop and get the laser microfone, same idea.
asciilifeform: but yes, you would want to do it with beta decay.
mircea_popescu: you wouldn't want to do it again. this is a cosmo kramer idea.
mircea_popescu: s/again/at all/.
asciilifeform: http://departments.agri.huji.ac.il/zabam/myimages/coincidence.jpg
asciilifeform: ^ commercial gadget, made for 40+ yrs
asciilifeform: http://departments.agri.huji.ac.il/zabam/myimages/Beta-Packard.jpg << the type i had
asciilifeform: 0 physical laws broken..
mircea_popescu: "here's something else than what i was talking about doing something else than what i was talking about, therefore."
asciilifeform: it won't work, mircea_popescu , the squid ink
asciilifeform: http://departments.agri.huji.ac.il/zabam/beta.html << likbez for n00bz.
mircea_popescu: mkay, i'm guessing that's enough for a day.
asciilifeform: aite.
shinohai: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2477.26, vol: 32244.22691818 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2390.45, vol: 25617.11116 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2466.0, vol: 49595.5512034 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2651.086256, vol: 32000.83330000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2494.596, vol: 13771.1618584 | Volume-weighted last average: 2496.96290776
asciilifeform: but meanwhile, in ben_vulpesistan, it neversleeps!, https://archive.is/DYc5c >> 'The owner of a burrito food cart in Portland has been driven out of business by social justice warriors who accused the two white women who run the business of "cultural appropriation."'
ben_vulpes: "burritogate!"
mircea_popescu: is it still crashing ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: didja see the list of hated business i posted a few days ago?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha, but had nfi re context
ben_vulpes: the church is maintaining its own hit list now
asciilifeform: which church
ben_vulpes: the church of woke
asciilifeform: lol
ben_vulpes: it's progress you see, they weren't going far enough before
ben_vulpes: you know, the church of progress where you pray, self-flagellate, to eudaly and hardesty et al for wisdom and guidance
ben_vulpes: because you have no god, you athiest, and cannot think for yourself, you american
mircea_popescu: not just the facts anymore ?
ben_vulpes: what facts, we have lived experience
mircea_popescu: ah right, i forgot about that.
ben_vulpes: "can't argue with lived experience!"
ben_vulpes: you were born poor and life sucked for you, quelle surprise
mircea_popescu: right right, because it's irreproducible AND THEREFORTE VALUABLE.
mircea_popescu: how the fuck their thinkers work i have no idea, but probably something with symmetrical scintillations.
ben_vulpes: see also "i don't check my privilege, i /leverage/ it."
ben_vulpes: "how do you leverage privilege?"
mircea_popescu: synnergy something ?
ben_vulpes: "ah see you'd have to be a cis het shitlord for it to make sense."
ben_vulpes: sin-ergy
ben_vulpes: my dark powers come from a lifetime of sin
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, in the dinner date conversation ideas, "who'd win a fight between the greatest douchecanoe and the worst shitlord ???"
mircea_popescu: or did "douchecanoe" fail coinage ? i recall all sorta sheilas pushing it pretty hard a few years back.
asciilifeform: the elephant, naturally
shinohai: !#vulpes
a111: and i didn't even need to bring any tools!
ben_vulpes: only tool i need in this life i keep between my legs
asciilifeform: !#vulpes
a111: to fix the UNENDING STREAM of precious bull run
asciilifeform: phf that thing was a work of genius
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel_p
deedbot: gabriel_laddel_p voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: btw gabriel_laddel_p dontcha have a key ?
asciilifeform: why not use.
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: yes, but I'm neg-rated by MP so cannot up myself
asciilifeform: !!gettrust gabriel_laddel_p
deedbot: L1: 1, L2: -2 by 2 connections.
gabriel_laddel_p: also hard drive died last night, so have to auth via a systemrescuecd + usb which sorta sucks
gabriel_laddel_p: mod6: the payment is to drive up the value of your shares
asciilifeform: anyway gabriel_laddel_p go to nosuchlabs.com , you will find rng bitz
gabriel_laddel_p: and also to demonstrate that "oh no, FG can't be sold" is in the same bucket as http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-01-2016#1381606 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-01-22 21:56 gabriel_laddel: I found 20 XC6216-2HQ240Cs
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661862 < incidentally ascii, your skill set could make you a lot of money if you ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 15:19 mircea_popescu: it may not be the end all be all, but if you fail to impress me with your idea, you don't have an idea. absolute minimum bar, the master's eye which fattens the cows.
asciilifeform: if wat
gabriel_laddel_p: would just move to tijuana Mexico and go to some parties, tell people you're a technician / chemist
asciilifeform: lol
gabriel_laddel_p: let em know you can do crypto
asciilifeform: aha lol, they get all the crypto they want from old man julius cesar
gabriel_laddel_p: if the cartel's knew even simple things like "most of our product is chiral" they could sell a lot more
asciilifeform: per http://trilema.com/2014/more-about-caesar-cyphers .
gabriel_laddel_p: d-amphetamine is WAYYY better & an easy sell, but not available on the market
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: they don't want to end up in jail any more than you do
asciilifeform: aaaactually they like jail fine
asciilifeform: see pretty much all of the mircea_popescu jail threads
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: stands in direct contradiction to my own experience, but w/e
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p has experience in mexican mafia?!
asciilifeform: whyd'dya quit. i wouldn't quit.
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: if I had experience with the cartel's I'd be making money in the way described above.
asciilifeform: and srsly, they have nfi that chiral column exists, i am supposed to believe.
asciilifeform: because wat, they don't watch american detective tv ?
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: go buy some cocaine sometime. or amphetamine of any description
gabriel_laddel_p: you CANNOT buy d-amphetamine, or any of the enantiomers / diastereomers of meth / cocaine.
gabriel_laddel_p: in spite of having radically different effects.
asciilifeform: if you must, separate it yerself ferfuxxsake
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: most of the people buying have no idea, they just know "white powder makes me feel good"
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: do you realize that you are becoming somewhat hard to distinguish from the late thestringpuller
gabriel_laddel_p: so you search around the chemical space to find the most potent white powder == sell more
asciilifeform: i'ma leave the white powders to the specialists.
asciilifeform: https://www.sott.net/image/s17/345005/full/powell_un_anthrax.jpg << oblig!
gabriel_laddel_p: fwiw, I'd like to apologize for the spelling errors above. on an apple computer & it spell corrects me / removes text / sends messages I didn't intend to send. Eg, "incidentally ascii" was supposed to be prefaced with "Amen. "
gabriel_laddel_p: Anyways, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661854 < Amen. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 15:14 mircea_popescu: and the most bitter fruit of this entire tree of idiocy being that in six months to a year, we'll be right back to "oh, orlol boat and lizzards are keeping the hydrogen engine under wraps".
asciilifeform has at this point lost count of the 'fine folx' who offered him 'sure profitz' involving white powders/militias/deathrays across-the-border/across-the-ocean/in-shangri-la/in-shiticonvalley etc etc
asciilifeform: ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506792 . ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-07-20 01:18 asciilifeform: it was a very strange experience, like having a contract killer sent for you who worked his whole life in a slaughterhouse and literally expects you to behave EXACTLY like cow, to simply walk up to where he has the ~stationary~ stun hammer
ben_vulpes: eh, cartels just kidnap and enslave technicians. what employ.
asciilifeform: chechens did.
asciilifeform: pirates also (ship doctor, let go when new one found)
asciilifeform: i could easily think of worse job to be enslaved for.
shinohai: YArgh
asciilifeform still finds it interesting that g_l did not ask re the rng sample .
asciilifeform: possibly at this point there's 7 d00dz using 'his' nick.
asciilifeform: 5 of whom travel in 'white powders' etc.
mod6: why buy the cow if you get the milk for free?
asciilifeform: possibly because the milk is powdered
asciilifeform: and typhoidal
asciilifeform: and at any rate not particularly fresh.
asciilifeform: also iirc cocaine only comes in L isomer in nature.
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo Saifedean Ammous (The guy ripped apart by diana_coman one Sunday in logs ) is upset that my latest Qntra did not attribute his quote. Please advise how to proceed.
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: !!up gabriel_laddel_p
deedbot: gabriel_laddel_p voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: !!seen saifedean
deedbot: 2017/04/02 08:26:34 <saifedean> in any case, these only inform the last couple of chapters of the book. the rest is mostly economic history and austrian economics on sound money and its perks & fiat money and its disasters
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1662426 < is it not free sample.bin from nosuchlabs.com? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 22:47 asciilifeform still finds it interesting that g_l did not ask re the rng sample .
shinohai: !!key saifedean
deedbot: Not registered.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: What quote?
shinohai: "A conference sponsored by the Ethereum,1 Dash,2 and Ripple3 scams produces an agreement on how to scale Bitcoin". <<< twas him from twitter
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: in any case, happy to make a PGPGRAM at whatever point verifying that indeed, it is me using this nick.
trinque: y'know we already have a process for doing just that.
gabriel_laddel_p: trinque: y'know, I'm neg-rated so cannot up myself
gabriel_laddel_p: how it is not 100% obvious I read everything by now...
gabriel_laddel_p: god you people are thick sometimes
mircea_popescu: shinohai why didn't it attribute ?
shinohai: I think I forgot to add the archive.is to his tweet, article underwent revision before published.
mircea_popescu: ah. so put it in, big deal.