⏐︎ 13815
sundun_: anyway i was thinking of investing in neo&bee
sundun_: but not sure if i should do it via havelock
sundun_: or via the lmbholdings site
jurov: so you aren't thinking about that anymore
jurov: that's good ;)
sundun_: haha you're saying it's good that ive already decided to invest
mircea_popescu: at this point you'd have to be off your rocker to do anything involving havelock.
sundun_: why micrea?
sundun_: what's wrong with havelock
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-12-2013#422307 ☝︎
ozbot: #bitcoin-assets log
sundun_: what
sundun_: you want me to read that long chat?
jurov: virtex, havelocks biggest asset, went into trouble
sundun_: can i get a tldr version
fiat500: is the situation in cyprus really this dire?
sundun_: what does that mean
mircea_popescu: sundun_ it autohighlights where you need to start.
mircea_popescu: fiat500 sounds pretty bad
fiat500: interesting
jurov: sundun_: if you're srs with the inestment, prefer full infor over tldr
sundun_: bleh i dont understand
sundun_: azoo sure. they reorganised as a entity run by "no one", recently. after which they allowed their largest company (virtex) to simply walk away from the investors 12:57:29mircea_popescu:collected >4k btc this year, paid no dividends, is now gone.
sundun_: this?
sundun_: virtex is stealing money?
sundun_: crap
jurov: they frame it as "exchange for real shares registered in alberta"
Duffer1: dundun_ if you're unsure of the offering or the exchange then just hold onto your btc for dear life, do not let go
jurov: but since it's CAD-denominated, it's as good as scam
sundun_: but i want to invest in btc buesinesss
sundun_: just not sure how
sundun_: but alot of people have funds in havelock
sundun_: it's a scam for them too?
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 has a point, and so does jurov. don't rush it.
mircea_popescu: you
sundun_: sigh i just sent half a bitcoin to havelock
fiat500: 4:04 PM <sundun_> but i want to invest in btc buesinesss
fiat500: 4:05 PM <sundun_> just not sure how
mircea_popescu: ll be very sorry after you lose your btc, better hold on to it.
fiat500: this is not the right way to look at it
sundun_: how should i look at it
Duffer1: sec
fiat500: unless you are an amazing philanthropist :P
sundun_: sorry i'm super nooby i want to learn more >_<
jurov: read more then ;)
sundun_: sigh
sundun_: okay
sundun_: i'm willing
Duffer1: sundun_ i wrote this just for you https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=353439
sundun_: this chat's ai is kind of confusing
mircea_popescu: yeah, read the logs.
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1506852/plain/)
mircea_popescu: !b 2 ✂︎
sundun_: or aesthetically unappearling
mircea_popescu: bwahaha kakobrekla you hear that ? teh ai is borkt!
Duffer1: assbot has tourettes (amazing)
mircea_popescu: "i got no time and i gotta invest". H. Ellison's sequel.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 7 @ 0.24077142 = 1.6854 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 7 @ 0.2405 = 1.6835 BTC [-] {2}
sundun_: so duffer1 you invested in losing bitcoin stocks?
sundun_: and that's why you don't advise it?
Duffer1: there were several points
sundun_: and the guys that you ivnested in
sundun_: ran off with 182 BTC
sundun_: damn
Duffer1: btc is almost certainly a better investment then X
sundun_: so everyone here does not want to invest in bitcoin securities?
Duffer1: i'm not saying that
mircea_popescu: <Duffer1> btc is almost certainly a better investment then X << ESPECIALLY if you don't really read/know what X does.
Duffer1: there are always going to be projects worth supporting
sundun_: so what are you saying
pankkake: if you don't really know or understand what the thing is about, if ANYTHING is unclear, don't invest
Duffer1: yes
Duffer1: and
Duffer1: even if you do know what it's about, it's very unlikely to outperform btc itself as an investment
fiat500: dont just invest in btc "business" for the sake of doing it
sundun_: so are you guys not invested in btc securities :/
sundun_: you're saying that i shouldn't invest cuz i'm not completely knowledgable
mircea_popescu: they are, they just try to conspire to keep you away from the really good stuff see ?
fiat500: lol
twizt: lol
sundun_: :/
sundun_: i'm confused
Duffer1: he's joking man
sundun_: okay
fiat500: sundun_: why do companies list themselves on the stock market in general?
sundun_: for supporters
fiat500: lolz
twizt: no
sundun_: wat
twizt: for initial capital
sundun_: yeah
sundun_: support
sundun_: financial support that they need to run business
twizt: thats not support
pankkake: mircea_popescu: I've been accused to do that. same as mining
sundun_: how is it not support
twizt: having facebook followers is support ;)
pankkake: there's no use :(
sundun_: oh i c
sundun_: i meant in different way
sundun_: anyway
sundun_: you guys have scared me
Duffer1: pankkake there is hope still, he did find his way here
fiat500: (also lets not consider cases where they are forced to because they've reached a threshold of stakeholders)
sundun_: i didn't think it would be a big deal to invest in neo&bee
pankkake: :)
twizt: everything is a risk sundun_
sundun_: i understand its' a risk
sundun_: don't invest anything you're unable to lose
sundun_: blah blah
twizt: just gotta make sure u if you should take certain ones or not
sundun_: okay
sundun_: thanks i mean it
pankkake: the "can't afford to lose" is certainly tired, and highly incomplete. you have to judge what is the risk and the potential reward
pankkake: if you can get 10% if it works, but it has a 50% chance to work, it's way too risky
sundun_: i see
sundun_: so back to havelock
sundun_: mircea thinks havelock is a scam
sundun_: bc of all the failed securities
Duffer1: even if they aren't a scam just look at the track record of their offerings
Duffer1: they might as well be a scam
sundun_: yeah failed securities
pankkake: I believe they don't have the best interests of shareholders anymore
fiat500: mircea_popescu: curious, say btcusd is at $40k, just to pluck a number out of thin air
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10400 @ 0.00090081 = 9.3684 BTC [+]
sundun_: i see
sundun_: so even asicmining?
sundun_: i know it's been seriously failing
fiat500: do you still see mpex registration staying at 30BTC?
sundun_: lmao
mircea_popescu: fiat500 yes.
pankkake: +in mind
mircea_popescu: 30 btc will still be 0.00000003% of btc in circulation. it's not a high barrier by any means.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 115 @ 0.00289 = 0.3324 BTC [+]
pizzaman1337: I wonder if someday I'd ever consider selling my MPEX registration...
fiat500: thats a nice way to look at it
mircea_popescu: and if 40k is too high, then people should pay less per btc
fiat500: the accepted theory on deflation is it causes prices to drop, looks like you're having none of that (or dont care about USD exchange rate)
mircea_popescu: this isn't a price, it's a barrier.
fiat500: ah
mircea_popescu: you're not buying something from me, you're proving something to me.
fiat500: the 30btc is your version of accreditation then
mircea_popescu: half of it.
mircea_popescu: the financial half. you also gotta be able to talk to the exchange.
pizzaman1337: will you ever stop allowing new registrations?
mircea_popescu: altoghether ? probably not.
pankkake: I already thought registrations were discretionary
jurov: pizzaman1337: only if you can find a provable way to forget your gpg key
fiat500: has the average investor done well on mpex?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8850 @ 0.00089936 = 7.9593 BTC [-] {2}
pizzaman1337: jurov: mpex allows updating keys, right?
jurov: no it does not
jurov: last i heard
asciilifeform: wait, srsly?
pizzaman1337: even if I think my key has been compromised?
jurov: there were some amends for unlucky people who had expiration date set, but afaik not anymore
jurov: then it's 30b for new acct.
mircea_popescu: fiat500 http://trilema.com/2013/the-list-of-discontinued-assets-on-mpex/ ; http://trilema.com/2013/mpex-one-year-of-dividends/ etc
fiat500: "on average the MPEx investor buying discontinued assets exclusively made a net loss of about two percent over the course of a little more than a year and a half"
fiat500: neat
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 2000 @ 0.001 = 2 BTC
mircea_popescu: overall s.dice broke even on price and made bank on dividends, s.mpoe paid a little dividends and went up about 30x or so since listing
mircea_popescu: and the smaller things are well... small.
mircea_popescu: the options tho, people made bank there
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/mpoe-bonds-historical-data-dec-2012-nov-2013/ and http://trilema.com/2012/mpoe-bonds-historical-data/ are both negative.
ozbot: MPOE bonds historical data, Dec 2012 - Nov 2013 pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
pizzaman1337: I'm curious to see what/if any affect X.EUR might have on things outside mpex/b-c
pizzaman1337: looks like someone placed a buy order?
Vexual: the mention of suitcases in this channel will propagate to a web article on bitcoin>bin ladens
mircea_popescu: pizzaman1337 ya lol
mircea_popescu: meanwhile : 84 cases of the plague w/ 40% mortality in Madagascar -- it has morphed from the original bubonic plague to pneumonic plague, easily transmissable...
Vexual: i told them not to open the vial
benkay: oh joy pneumonic.
fiat500: i laughed my ass off at the thought of jurov having to shuttle briefcases of cash for coinbr uses
fiat500: *users
jurov: hell yes
kakobrekla: its not suppose to be aesthetically appearling
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22962 @ 0.00090319 = 20.739 BTC [+] {3}
jurov: pizzaman1337: if you used a cardano for mpex trade, then it would be feasible to sell the acct
mircea_popescu: now this is true. course is risky, if your key falls in the fucking pit and dies, you're sol
mircea_popescu: but otherwise, you can actually deliver an acct.
jurov: but no it would not. you could have PUSH prepared for later execution
jurov: *signed
mircea_popescu: if you know what your shit will be like atg the time of demise.
mircea_popescu: say yiou have a push for X and you meanwhile sold Y
mircea_popescu: you'd have to keep it updated.
pizzaman1337: every time you did anything
mircea_popescu: (trivial to code into your pympex or w/e you use, obviously)
pizzaman1337: but then you need to keep that safe too
jurov: i can just sign PUSH|addr|9999999 for all assets?
kakobrekla: i use punch cards.
mircea_popescu: jurov ya but it'll fail
asciilifeform: ok friendly reminder
asciilifeform: cardano key extraction is not physically impossible (that'd be a lie) - just non-trivial.
jurov: hmmmmmmm.... so a bunch of smaller then
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how'd one do it ?
asciilifeform: resistance to physical attack is not on the menu. (if you want this, encase yours in concrete.)
Vexual: epoxy
jurov: no need to extract the keys, prepared in advance PUSH will do
asciilifeform: see, there are two contradictory design objectives
asciilifeform: auditability and physical security
asciilifeform: they cannot be reconciled
asciilifeform: so the latter isn't in the mix
jurov: Vexual: asciilifeform posted a paper exactly about that yest
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so suppose i want to extract the key so i can make a mpex acct and sell it ands then later steal the guy's shit. how do i do it ?
asciilifeform: the only definite promise is that the key cannot be exfiltrated silently by the attached pc.
asciilifeform: 1) read the (to be published) design docs
asciilifeform: 2) remove appropriate chips
asciilifeform: 3) read back bits
asciilifeform: 4) process into gpg-compatible key.
mircea_popescu: aha.
Vexual: nintendo has that exopy that will cunt up a chip if you try to get it off
dub: so, we need a new wot btw
asciilifeform: Vexual: if you keep keys in SRAM it gets much easier
dub: S.WOT?
pizzaman1337: mircea_popescu: you could pre-sign push commands for 1 satoshi a few billion times (or withdraw commands, or whatever)
mircea_popescu: dub why ?!
benkay: why new wot?
dub: current is broken
mircea_popescu: pizzaman1337 you could, but think of the effort.
asciilifeform: but then you risk loss on dead battery, airport xray, etc.
benkay: dub: broken hao?
dub: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=stamit&sign=ANY&type=RECV
ozbot: Rating Details for User 'stamit'
mircea_popescu: dub can you be like explicit and everything ?
dub: story is this guy has some kind of personality issue where he can
mircea_popescu: i seem to recall stamit being sanwe.
mircea_popescu: sane*
dub: 't get over one person (gmaxwell) being a fuckwit
dub: so he rants a little bit, makes a nuisance of himself in a couple of channels
dub: gmax and shilltown negrate him
mircea_popescu: who the fuck is "thelordoftime"
dub: rules say if your trust web with nanotube is <0 you can't use the system
truffles: gmaxwell that douche
asciilifeform: since this is important, i'll repeat it: you can have a cryptowidget that nukes itself when disassembled, circuits potted in unobtainium, etc. or you can have one whose function you can personally verify. can't have both. 'fried ice.'
dub: mircea_popescu: gmax shil, 12 year old operator in 0otc
dub: -otc*
mircea_popescu: dub is this -otc drama ?
dub: its spilled out of -otc but basically
mircea_popescu: so the argument that wot is broken says that you can't rate unless you're above 0 and idiots can get you below 0 ?
dub: correct
dub: key is that nanotube has a Trust Cabal effect
asciilifeform: wait, everyone's rating counts towards this purpose equally?
asciilifeform: that's bizarre
mircea_popescu: the counter to this is that if you don't do this, anyone can end up -infinity by the effect of endless socks
Vexual: needs proof of stake
mircea_popescu: "I haven't traded with this guy, but I've heard from people I trust that he has used legal intimidation to force censorship of people's ratings of him. "
mircea_popescu: herp.
dub: exactly
mircea_popescu: since when is retardtown preoccupied with censorship lol
dub: 'derp derp derp doing this will make gmaxwell like me'
mircea_popescu: or is it one of those, "we can't stand censorship that's not directed at the enemy"
asciilifeform: proof of stake? then who'd need wot. just have people sign 'i like mr. xyz' with an addr. key
asciilifeform: the other way to avoid 'imperium in imperio' in a wot is: a tyrant.
Vexual: 50000bc hates you
dub: stamit is weird and has entitlement issues in that he thinks being a bag of air breathing meat entitles him to some basic rights
mircea_popescu: dub the funny thing is, gmaxwell himself is like 3 angry people away from oblivion
nubbins`: thing about the wot is that most of the ratings are less than useless
dub: but hes no scammer
nubbins`: seriously
nubbins`: "his ppusd for my btc"
nubbins`: who gives a fuck
mircea_popescu: nubbins` thing about this world is that most of everything in it is less than useless.
nubbins`: Web of Children
asciilifeform: easy fix for wot (was gonna write this myself before i ever heard of btc) is: no global totals.
mircea_popescu: same is true of houses, women, puppies, clouds, wjhat have you
asciilifeform: any user must be viewed through the lens of a selected other.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nobody reallty uses the global totals that's sane
benkay: ^^
nubbins`: mircea_popescu: even the puppies? D;
mircea_popescu: this is like, mpoe-pr 2012 bitcoin 101
asciilifeform: except, if we are told correctly, for the 0-cutoff
mircea_popescu: well it used to be a 0 total, apparently nanotube improved it so it's 0 to him
mircea_popescu: since he runs gribble there's some sense to this (as grible could reasonably use his rating to see the world)
asciilifeform: fixed then. got our tyrant plugged in.
mircea_popescu: i suppose a decent solution for this is for an interested 3rd party to make dubble, which looks from dub's perspective
mircea_popescu: i think nano'd be amenable to the arrangement.
nanotube: all the code is foss. wanna spin up your own bot, nobody's stopping you.
nanotube: it was just an expedient method to stop rating spam/shilling in its tracks.
nubbins`: nubble
mircea_popescu: i don't really see a better way tbh.
mircea_popescu: no matter what you do you'll end up with this tradeoff.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1300 @ 0.00090275 = 1.1736 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: you know exopy is much cuter than epoxy. i wonder why they didn't call it exopy.
Vexual: stupid chemists
nubbins`: !ticker m s.mg
assbot: [MPEX:S.MG] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 0.000115 / 0.00011508 / 0.000155 (3000 shares, 0.35 BTC), 30D: 0.0001 / 0.00014023 / 0.00016 (98322 shares, 13.79 BTC)
nubbins`: !ticker h smg
assbot: [HAVELOCK:SMG] 1D: / 0 / (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 0.00010025 / 0.00013905 / 0.00020000 (19055 shares, 2.64967247 BTC), 30D: 0.00005778 / 0.00011754 / 0.00020000 (74621 shares, 8.77068209 BTC)
nubbins`: exopy describes how complicated it is to find the exits
nubbins`: fire marshals use it when inspecting buildings
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: dub i'd be much more worried for people like http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=quickcoin&sign=ANY&type=RECV
mircea_popescu: that kid's now fucked for instance.
nubbins`: heh
nubbins`: "i'm rating this guy -10 because he scammed wrinklemonster"
nubbins`: mircea_popescu: speaking of ratings, how about giving me some love one of these days?
mircea_popescu: ;;rated nubbins`
gribble: You have not yet rated user nubbins`
mircea_popescu: o hey.
dub: lel
dub: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=tim-tams&sign=ANY&type=RECV
ozbot: Rating Details for User 'tim-tams'
pankkake: blame the `
dub: not sure if sockies
mircea_popescu: ;;rate nubbins` 2 One of the first Stock Warrant holders.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 2 for user nubbins` has been recorded.
nubbins`: hey! thanks
nubbins`: pankkake: everyone does ;)
truffles: look at mp spaming ratings
truffles: inside job
nubbins`: "ident with gribble or you're getting banned in 60 seconds"
mircea_popescu: fucking historical too, like some guy goiing "o yeah, and then i bought the 3rd share printed in the us"
nubbins`: you have any idea how fucking hard it is to auth in 60 seconds? D;
nubbins`: mircea_popescu: i still have plans to make a nice print of it some day
nubbins`: cutting my teeth on a related project right now
mircea_popescu: depending how your offline stuff is set up you might not even be able to log in 60 seconds.
mircea_popescu: dub definitely sockies, 2 days after he negged a scammer.
nubbins`: tim-tams sells xau
mircea_popescu: like a lot ?
nubbins`: sorry, ah!
nubbins`: *ag
mircea_popescu: a
nubbins`: not a ton
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 701 @ 0.00049999 = 0.3505 BTC [+]
nubbins`: just kind of odd to see people selling metals for btc these days
benkay: almost as odd as physical bitcoins, eh?
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: what;s so odd about it ?
nubbins`: ah, i guess i'm just making the assumption that he initially bought these metals with btc
nubbins`: that may not be the case
mircea_popescu: seems improbable.
nubbins`: well, the alternative (that he's buying btc with fiat via PMs) makes a lot more sense
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 9 @ 0.02316222 = 0.2085 BTC [+] {4}
nubbins`: i guess never really occurred to me, as i've only done the opposite
mircea_popescu: the uppitty tortilla character supposedly got into btc by trading his silver stash
kakobrekla: better tortilla than usagi
kakobrekla: both sound like dishes
mircea_popescu: i thought usagi sold his guitar.
nubbins`: heh!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00090275 = 5.3262 BTC [-]
nubbins`: i had bought about $2000 worth of btc before i realized that it made far more sense to sell goods and services for btc
nubbins`: i think the first thing i sold was a btc logo t-shirt
kakobrekla: "get me some sushi and some raw usagi! And bring a spoon, cant put my eyes out with these sticks even if i wanted"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1615 @ 0.00090364 = 1.4594 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: diametric ello.
diametric: hey
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.00090366 = 10.9343 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/encarnacao-do-demonio-1.jpg
diametric: fun
mircea_popescu: apparently google imaging "site:trilema.com tits" and other dirty words yields a bevy of cool stuff.
mircea_popescu: i guess now i know what i'll be doing when i'll be a dried up geezer.
diametric: mircea_popescu: yeah i don't know if you realized, but you left directory indexes on
mircea_popescu: tis deliberate
BingoBoingo: Since I seem to get most of my traffic from addressing n00b traps http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2013/12/15/dogecoin-the-impeding-danger-of-old-meme/ So Doge
diametric: mircea_popescu: so i take it you've been informed of my digital fabrication abilities?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Well this is somewhat embarrassing, isn’t it?"
pankkake: I wget -r trilema but besides a few old blog headers nothing much interesting
asciilifeform: diametric makes very nifty flying machines. and scanned head busts. and other goodies.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: No doubt, but embarassement is a force of education
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo turns out i had copied ther whole line
mircea_popescu: anyway, you might wish to do your htaccess tolerantly, so http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2013/12/15/dogecoin-the-impeding-danger-of-old-meme/%20So%20Doge still resolves
BingoBoingo: Really?
BingoBoingo: Ah
BingoBoingo: I usually just left click links. I forget that there's 800 different ways to move them from the IRC client to the browser.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00090444 = 3.1655 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: i don't trust auto-anything.
mircea_popescu: holy shit, dogecoin is an actual thing ?
mircea_popescu: i thought we were kidding around
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: No, It's a scrypt altcoin, roughly 100 billion coins if I counted the zeros right glancing at it.
nubbins`: such faucet, for real
benkay: it gets better
benkay: random block rewards
BingoBoingo: DogeCOin, SO thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.0
diametric: its a hilarious satirical coin
jurov: and someone is actually pumping it
benkay: to the doge
jurov: wow
benkay: so pump
nubbins`: "what is with the digger built into the QT. I never got it running, always said no dig such fail."
nubbins`: heheh
mircea_popescu: actually block rewards equal to say the 5th digit of the nonce are an interesting idea
pankkake: stupider coins have been created
pankkake: coins made to be bad got traded
mircea_popescu: basically, the longer a block interval, the lower the reward
mircea_popescu: gives the coin an incentive to spontaneously die
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11350 @ 0.00090444 = 10.2654 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00295017 = 1.4751 BTC [+] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9847 @ 0.00090366 = 8.8983 BTC [-]
fiat500: https://github.com/dogecoin/dogecoin/commits/master
fiat500: l.o.l
pankkake: haha nice. even the username is funny
diametric: they changed all the buttons too
benkay: doge forever
benkay: https://coinedup.com/OrderBook?market=DOGE&base=BTC
ozbot: Coined Up - The FREE Crypto-Only Currency Exchange
benkay: 2 satoshi spread
frb: a coin whose only redeeming feature is that it is named after an internet meme
frb: what could go wrong?
benkay: many noob
fiat500: http://dogechain.info/
ozbot: Dogecoin
fiat500: they went all out
benkay: i think it's a stunt to drive business for http://www.designinghypermediaapis.com/ butttttt i may be wrong
the20year1: Is it possible to tie a new altcoin to btc addresses?
the20year1: It'd be pretty cool to spawn off an altcoin backed by real estate through our bitcoin realestate business, but i don't know of any viable way to do it
BingoBoingo: benkay: That has to be the saddest site on the internet
benkay: not as bad as ur moms
benkay: or mpex
fiat500: im digging for doge now
BingoBoingo: benkay: There is a distinct difference between badness and sadness as a question of being different kinds of properties.
fiat500: very moon
benkay: BingoBoingo: i don't know that i buy asciilifeform's ball-o-mud argument on urbit yet. given enough traction wouldn't it make sense to rewrite the important bits for fpgas or what have we?
benkay: granted i don't know anything about anything, and there's the whole keyboard and display thing to deal with
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3050 @ 0.00090366 = 2.7562 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: benkay: Well You can spec a Turing complete language on a napkin in the bar. What takes time is building an implementation that runs on something. For most applications now, the various *nix's are going to be the best things available. If you want to write a new future of computing though instead of inventing Urbit someone could have just as well made a *nix that only offered as a Userland GNU Guile. It seems to me the Closest thi
BingoBoingo: ng to Urbit and the thing that highlights its futility is Clojure.
the20year1: Anyone have an answer to my question?
benkay: the20year1: what on earth do you mean by 'tie a new altcoin to btc addresses'?
mircea_popescu: http://www.harlanellison.com/heboard/ihnm/code/hypertxt.htm
mircea_popescu: this is a sadder site
mircea_popescu: than anything
nubbins`: BingoBoingo: game?
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Why not, give me some time to set up the board
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bootstrap could make it sadder.
nubbins`: great, we'll get gribble to flip
BingoBoingo: Cool
BingoBoingo: I'll take tails since you know the flippage
nubbins`: ;;flip
gribble: Error: "flip" is not a valid command.
nubbins`: i mean, uh!
nubbins`: ;;coin
gribble: tails
mircea_popescu: ;;coin
gribble: heads
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00090444 = 8.2304 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: gribs gives me such heads.
nubbins`: many flip, so dispute resolution
benkay: BingoBoingo: babes have arrived, i'll grill ya later
pankkake: what year was the worst thing that happened to the U.S. dollar?
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Which flip are we using?
BingoBoingo: pankkake: 1934
nubbins`: BingoBoingo: you can go ahead
pankkake: thanks
mircea_popescu: nah, the war.
nubbins`: we'll use mine
mircea_popescu: dollar split, the north was like, 1:2
mircea_popescu: the south like 1:5
nubbins`: i can recall trading cad:usd at like 1.4:1 before going on vacation as a kid
asciilifeform: benkay: happy to answe that one.
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: I'll start with 1. d4 then
nubbins`: d5
asciilifeform: urbit (or any other graph-reduction machine with 'immutable data') is exquisitely unsuited to hardware. at least in this universe.
BingoBoingo: c4
nubbins`: e5
benkay: asciilifeform: why is that? do forgive my complete ignorance of the domain...
asciilifeform: the whole 'immutability' thing is an outcome of a decades-long acid trip by 'mathematical cs' wankers
BingoBoingo: dxe5
mircea_popescu: lol
nubbins`: d4
asciilifeform: they have this notion that if you constrain the system in various odd and quite unpleasant ways, you will then be able to mathematically prove useful facts about it.
asciilifeform: but 'you can't transition from the informal to the formal by formal means'
asciilifeform: the proof doesn't tell you anything about your priors being valid
BingoBoingo: e3
asciilifeform: and reality has a nasty habit of violating your priors. because a physical machine is not a mathematical object.
asciilifeform: 'spherical horse.'
nubbins`: c6
randomcloud: Something-something you can play chess here?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20850 @ 0.0009032 = 18.8317 BTC [-] {4}
BingoBoingo: Nf3
nubbins`: randomcloud: after a fashion
nubbins`: Bf4+
nubbins`: sorry
nubbins`: Bb4+
BingoBoingo: Bd2
asciilifeform: author of urbit wrote some pretty good screeds on why he quit academic cs: (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/07/my-navrozov-moments.html and http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-cs-research.html) and then proceeded to... well, do what he did.
nubbins`: Qe7
BingoBoingo: BxB
nubbins`: Nxb4
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: You have a Knight facing b4?
nubbins`: should be one on c6
BingoBoingo: Ah.
nubbins`: just after "Spherical horse"
nubbins`: we can rewind if you like
BingoBoingo: Nxd4
nubbins`: Nh6
benkay: asciilifeform: doesn't immutability also help averagely-talented software teams operate in highly threaded environments?
nubbins`: asciilifeform: quitting something and giving it up are two different things, i guess ;D
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2800 @ 0.00090275 = 2.5277 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: not only that, but it helps to feed memory and disk manufacturers' children!
asciilifeform: job creation!
asciilifeform: and so on.
BingoBoingo: Be2
nubbins`: Bg4
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00090196 = 6.2235 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: BxB
benkay: asciilifeform: doesn't shitty code that gets hardware deployed against its performance problems carry more responsibility for that?
nubbins`: Nxg4
asciilifeform: benkay: if 'nothing ever actually gets deleted' isn't shitty, i don't know what it.
BingoBoingo: Qxg4
asciilifeform: decreeing that buildings shall have water pipes but no drains would make the lives of construction crews easier, but for some odd reason isn't a popular idea.
nubbins`: 0-0
BingoBoingo: Nf5
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7250 @ 0.00090444 = 6.5572 BTC [+]
nubbins`: Nc2
nubbins`: +
benkay: ah so you object to urbit's low-level immutability
BingoBoingo: Ke2
asciilifeform: that was simply an answer to the question 'if it catches on, won't someone slip appropriate silicon under it.'
nubbins`: Re8
BingoBoingo: Qxg7++
nubbins`: ah hahaha. gg.
BingoBoingo: gg
BingoBoingo: I have to say e5 was ballsy
nubbins`: thought i'd try stirring up the pot early
nubbins`: really it was that whole bishop/knight/queen trade that did me in, i think
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00090444 = 6.2406 BTC [+]
nubbins`: i'd play again if you're up for it
BingoBoingo: Sure Do you want me to flip this time?
nubbins`: yeah, go ahead. i'll call heads
BingoBoingo: ;;coin
gribble: heads
nubbins`: 1. e4
BingoBoingo: d6
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 120 @ 0.001 = 0.12 BTC
nubbins`: Nc3
BingoBoingo: Nf6
nubbins`: Nf3
BingoBoingo: g6
nubbins`: d3
BingoBoingo: Bg7
nubbins`: e5
BingoBoingo: dxe5
mircea_popescu: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-15/jpmorgans-bitcoin-alternative-patent-rejected-175-times
ozbot: JPMorgan's "Bitcoin-Alternative" Patent Rejected (175 Times) | Zero Hedge
mircea_popescu: herp
benkay: is this the layer on top of the credit card processing system thing?
nubbins`: d3
nubbins`: sorry, d4
BingoBoingo: exd4
nubbins`: Nxd4
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4700 @ 0.00090196 = 4.2392 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: 0-0
mircea_popescu: ya
nubbins`: f3
BingoBoingo: Nf6
nubbins`: i think you already have N on f6
nubbins`: yeah, just after 2nd last assbot
BingoBoingo: AH, Nc6
BingoBoingo: Sorry, I'm running low on VOdka
nubbins`: Be3
truffles: chatroom chess?
nubbins`: they have this vodka that comes in a glass skull here
BingoBoingo: e5
nubbins`: truffles: bingo is 1-0
nubbins`: well i guess 3-0 all total at this point
truffles: so ure not so good
nubbins`: maybe more
nubbins`: no
BingoBoingo: For the night. Career I believe it is 4-0, someone else played a game at a point
truffles: no Qf7 ?
BingoBoingo: I lose a bunch IRL though. And back when CoinChat was a thing I lost quite a few games there
nubbins`: Be2
BingoBoingo: exNd4
nubbins`: Qxd4
BingoBoingo: Nc6xd4
nubbins`: Bxd4
BingoBoingo: Qxd4
nubbins`: 0-0-0
BingoBoingo: I don't know that Castling through check is legal...
nubbins`: hm, that's a good point
asciilifeform: afaik nope.
Apocalyptic: it's indeed not
nubbins`: aha, you're right
mircea_popescu: scam castle!
nubbins`: 0-0
BingoBoingo: I believe that would be actively castling into check...
nubbins`: HAHA. thinking > drinking
nubbins`: third time's a charm?
BingoBoingo: About to pour another one soon.
BingoBoingo: Sure.
nubbins`: Nd1
BingoBoingo: Nd5
nubbins`: Rc1
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.00090196 = 4.5098 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: Re8
nubbins`: g3
BingoBoingo: Bh6
nubbins`: Nf2
BingoBoingo: BxRc1
nubbins`: Ng4
BingoBoingo: Qd1+
nubbins`: Kxd1
BingoBoingo: Bxb2
nubbins`: Nh6+
BingoBoingo: Kg7
nubbins`: h4
BingoBoingo: Kxh6
nubbins`: g4
BingoBoingo: Ne3+
nubbins`: Ke1
BingoBoingo: Nxg4
nubbins`: xg4
BingoBoingo: Bxg4
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.00090444 = 4.7031 BTC [+]
nubbins`: Nc4
nubbins`: sorry
nubbins`: Bc4
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20350 @ 0.00090469 = 18.4104 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: wait, no
nubbins`: D;
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Pretty sure moving that Bishop opens you to check...
asciilifeform: re: urbit: anyone curious about my answer to the quandary 'so, how the hell /should/ we build a computer' is invited to read:
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1361
ozbot: Loper OS » The Alert Reader.
nubbins`: Rh2.
BingoBoingo: RxB+
nubbins`: Rxe2
BingoBoingo: BxR
nubbins`: Kxe2
nubbins`: ha ha, now it's a game
BingoBoingo: Kh5
nubbins`: Kd3
BingoBoingo: f5
nubbins`: Ke3
BingoBoingo: Kg4
nubbins`: c4
BingoBoingo: Re8
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16250 @ 0.00090551 = 14.7145 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: +
nubbins`: Kd4
BingoBoingo: Bishop...
nubbins`: Kd2
nubbins`: sloppy
BingoBoingo: f4
BingoBoingo: It happens
nubbins`: c5
BingoBoingo: f3
nubbins`: Ke1
nubbins`: nope
nubbins`: lel
nubbins`: Kc2
BingoBoingo: f2
nubbins`: Kxb2
kakobrekla: nubbins` sank my boat :(
nubbins`: beep bloop!
BingoBoingo: Re3
nubbins`: you got me, gg
BingoBoingo: gg
BingoBoingo: I completely forgot the King could take pieces when I went Qd1
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41900 @ 0.00090113 = 37.7573 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 16 @ 0.24075319 = 3.8521 BTC [+] {5}
nubbins`: yeah, i'm officially done with chess for the night
nubbins`: can't even keep it straight
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 20 @ 0.05 = 1 BTC
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 26 @ 0.24946149 = 6.486 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 100 @ 0.05 = 5 BTC
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 8 @ 0.24999998 = 2 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.25 = 1 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4435 @ 0.00089935 = 3.9886 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.25 = 1.25 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31450 @ 0.0008992 = 28.2798 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5100 @ 0.0009027 = 4.6038 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 8 @ 0.08302499 = 0.6642 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 13 @ 0.05 = 0.65 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10600 @ 0.0008987 = 9.5262 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7950 @ 0.0009027 = 7.1765 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.05 = 0.5 BTC
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 250 @ 0.00230002 = 0.575 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 26 @ 0.0228 = 0.5928 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 340 @ 0.00296899 = 1.0095 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 258 @ 0.00296996 = 0.7662 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24840 @ 0.00089845 = 22.3175 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 675 @ 0.00297781 = 2.01 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 300 @ 0.00297861 = 0.8936 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 107 @ 0.00298 = 0.3189 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 70 @ 0.00238998 = 0.1673 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21350 @ 0.00090223 = 19.2626 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17200 @ 0.00090311 = 15.5335 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11752 @ 0.00089777 = 10.5506 BTC [-] {2}
Apocalyptic: komododragon, sup
komododragon: what up
komododragon: you fucking #brokeboy
komododragon: running the late shift tonight again you fucking mut
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 210 @ 0.00230381 = 0.4838 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12400 @ 0.00089756 = 11.1297 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 100 @ 0.05 = 5 BTC
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 10 @ 0.02375 = 0.2375 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 10 @ 0.02429898 = 0.243 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10625 @ 0.00089883 = 9.5501 BTC [+]
newguy: ;;bcauth newguy
gribble: Request successful for user newguy, hostmask newguy!~truerelig@ Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:801499a6e823efeda47d85dcc68470a283c226f35d4597682b2c2414
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5319 @ 0.0009029 = 4.8025 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12617 @ 0.00089994 = 11.3545 BTC [-] {2}
Apocalyptic: seriously ASAPCA gtfo
ASAPCA: you my good sir
ASAPCA: are going to get
ASAPCA: hit at least
ASAPCA: 30 times
ASAPCA: i swear to fucking god
ASAPCA: you better stay up with me
ASAPCA: and watch
ASAPCA: now that I got my hands on you
ASAPCA: you're going to wish
ASAPCA: you never got in our way
ASAPCA: you mother fucker
Apocalyptic: *sigh*
KINGLILJAYYYYYYY: what i been saying
KINGLILJAYYYYYYY: all these times
KINGLILJAYYYYYYY: you've kicked me
KINGLILJAYYYYYYY: i was fucking mad
Apocalyptic: i can imagine
KINGLILJAYYYYYYY: you gonna feel it
KINGLILJAYYYYYYY: with this shit
KINGLILJAYYYYYYY: you fucking maggot
BDKBDK: your going to learn
BDKBDK: today
BDKBDK: you mother fucker
toronto: OH
toronto: AHAHA
toronto: MAYBE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
twizt: huh
twizt: whats going on
Apocalyptic: this chan could really use some op
kushedoutt: oh yes
Apocalyptic: twizt, just a random douche hating
kushedoutt: it should
kushedoutt: could
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6895 @ 0.00090361 = 6.2304 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3255 @ 0.00090392 = 2.9423 BTC [+]
ASAPCA: aight
ASAPCA: well
ASAPCA: guess the party
ASAPCA: is up
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2124 @ 0.00089881 = 1.9091 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00090184 = 8.342 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10516 @ 0.00089747 = 9.4378 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3534 @ 0.00089584 = 3.1659 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5782 @ 0.00090063 = 5.2074 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6850 @ 0.00089974 = 6.1632 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14250 @ 0.00089584 = 12.7657 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15718 @ 0.00090128 = 14.1663 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5732 @ 0.00090185 = 5.1694 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9050 @ 0.00090238 = 8.1665 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13200 @ 0.00089643 = 11.8329 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00089863 = 6.7397 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7800 @ 0.00089489 = 6.9801 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00089863 = 6.2005 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00089476 = 10.4687 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9351 @ 0.00089476 = 8.3669 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic lol so what was that all about ?
Apocalyptic: i call him out, he's our usual scammer in -otc
Apocalyptic: so he got pissed
Apocalyptic: and started creating fake accounts to negrate me
Apocalyptic: & other ops
gribble: Error: "other" is not a valid command.
truffles: lol at that
truffles: at the gibble thing..
lyspooner: what is min size for x.eur
lyspooner: and do i understand the specifications correctly that davout will be responsible for defining delivery details?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4055 @ 0.00089476 = 3.6283 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15512 @ 0.00089469 = 13.8784 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: lyspooner what do you mean min size ? you can get 1
jurov: he prolly means the lot
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic you getting a lot of that in -otc these days huh ? i see Azelphur negging people, that's a rarity.
mircea_popescu: 1 x.eur = 1 eur
mircea_popescu: <lyspooner> and do i understand the specifications correctly that davout will be responsible for defining delivery details? << within reason and in advance.
lyspooner: so i buy 1 x.eur, hold it to expiration, and then davout gives me 1 eur
mircea_popescu: yea
jurov: and MKFUT does work on x.eur with 1.8 EUR collateral equivalent?
mircea_popescu: at expiration you can either take 1 euro in cash if you go through the delivery process or have it rolled to next month's x.eur
mircea_popescu: jurov no.
mircea_popescu: but you can contact davout, and deliver euros to him on bc, which arrangement he may accept
lyspooner: i could bankrupt davout by buying several instances of 1 euro from davout, holding them to expiration and having him wire me 1 eur at as many bank accounts as i have contracts
mircea_popescu: this obviously being a mm feature, don't expect it to happen for 7.8 eur or some bs
mircea_popescu: lyspooner afaik there's a 5 eur charge per delivery.
mircea_popescu: go ahead
jurov: right
mircea_popescu: anyway, the phys delivery is mostly there to keep things honest. unlike all the bucket shops running a soft-settled only "future"
mircea_popescu: which obviously is not a future.
lyspooner: because delivery specifications are made by a single-market maker, this contract will always guaranteed to have a single seller?
mircea_popescu: no such guarantee is made.
lyspooner: but davout is responsible for his delivery specs, which might differ from, say, mine
mircea_popescu: yes.
lyspooner: how will a buyer know whome he is facing ?
mircea_popescu: (see teh email you just got)
lyspooner: ah ok sec
jurov: we'll have to wait for official announcement with the specs.. or was it done already?
mircea_popescu: jurov click all the links!
mircea_popescu: Monthly settlement details available here : http://xeur.bitcoin-central.net/
jurov: i see
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14475 @ 0.00089656 = 12.9777 BTC [+] {3}
lyspooner: so mpex will not take responsibility for davout or anyone else's failure to deliver?
mircea_popescu: yeah, because they deposit to mm.
mircea_popescu: (c) The Market Maker will make a deposit of BTC with the Exchange, on the basis of which the Exchange will create a number of X.EUR contracts in the Market Maker's account, by the criterion of the weighted spot price rounded to the lowest 10.
lyspooner: so if you choose 5 market makers for the product, each with their own delivery specification, the buyer of the contract faces all of the different mm's
mircea_popescu: and
mircea_popescu: (a) The Market Maker will immediately notify the Exchange should observance of the terms of this contract become impossible for the future. Should such notification be received, the Exchange will distribute the Market Maker's deposit to contract holders, in proportion of the number of contracts they hold but not in excess of the implied spot value rounded to the lowest 10. This distribution will constitute the sole rem
mircea_popescu: edy for contract holders from the part of the Exchange.
mircea_popescu: lyspooner that is one way to run it. there's no guarantee it'll be the way it's run.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.05 = 0.15 BTC
lyspooner: so if i buy 1000 contracts at .0015 and the future expires at 10,000,000 eur on the final settlement day, and the short can't give me 10 billion euros, what do i get?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 65 @ 0.00298 = 0.1937 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: 1000 contracts = 1000 euros
mircea_popescu: how can't he not give you 1000 euros ?
lyspooner: ah ok, i've been look at icbit too long
mircea_popescu: it rots the brain.
lyspooner: indeed
mircea_popescu: we do things right for a reason.
lyspooner: there's still something gross about the delivery specs being different from mm to mm
mircea_popescu: no there isn't. you've been looking at eurodollars too long.
mircea_popescu: embrace free market.
lyspooner: imagine i buy 100 contracts while there is a single market-maker, davout, because i am comfortable with his terms of delivery
mircea_popescu: anyway, the mm deposit could have been in either of the pair, but btc seems safer.
mircea_popescu: admittedly there could still exist an edge case where the mm splits and the holders book a loss
mircea_popescu: but it seems really edgy.
mircea_popescu: lyspooner certainly all changes are announced before the contract trades. this is sacred.
lyspooner: you couldn't allow a second market-maker
lyspooner: mid-trading
lyspooner: in the case where the mm splits or dies or forgets everything or worse, then the longs eat the crap
mircea_popescu: well suppose the mm gets 1mn contracts, by depositing 1560 btc.
mircea_popescu: he sells those, and then runs off
mircea_popescu: people get 0.00156 btc per held contract.
mircea_popescu: that COULD be worthless, obviously. and it'll have to be accounted for.
mircea_popescu: still, on one hand it's a much better liquidation event than either the best or the most recent non-mpex liquidation event, on one hand
mircea_popescu: and it's practically better than the alternative (hold 1mn euros which also COULD be worthless)
lyspooner: he would sell 1mn contracts, and in the case that bitcoins were worth less than 1 eur and he didn't hedge himself, he would owe 1mn EUR. he would run off and people would get near worthless bitcoins
mircea_popescu: it's a possibility.
lyspooner: make him post euros to you
mircea_popescu: of course, what he says is that he's not going directional, and it makes sense for him not to, if he knows his business,
mircea_popescu: and moreover he has the means to go delta neutral as he has ready access to a spot market.
mircea_popescu: lyspooner what, instead of btc ? that's nonsense.
lyspooner: nonsense in what way? it prevents the situation i just described
mircea_popescu: it creates the equivalent.
mircea_popescu: i tell you euro will turn worthless in the next ten years a degree of magnitude more often than btc will
mircea_popescu: at the very leasty.
lyspooner: shorts post euros, longs post bitcoins
mircea_popescu: i'm not a fucking exchange. i gotta pick one.
lyspooner: the good exchange will pick that format
lyspooner: until then you have recreated icbit's downside problems
lyspooner: with slightly better management
lyspooner: and less (?) default risk
mircea_popescu: nah.
mircea_popescu: looky, economy is built on trust and people doing their job. it's not really built on "making it impossible" for people to default.
mircea_popescu: making it obvious when someone defaults and making responsibility stick for defaults is good enough.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15600 @ 0.00090117 = 14.0583 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 104 @ 0.00238994 = 0.2486 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 196 @ 0.00239751 = 0.4699 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.25275 = 0.5055 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 2500 @ 0.00284938 = 7.1235 BTC [-] {11}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.251 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24716 @ 0.00090256 = 22.3077 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 30 @ 0.05 = 1.5 BTC {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9043 @ 0.00090334 = 8.1689 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: ;;bcstats
gribble: Current Blocks: 275236 | Current Difficulty: 9.08350862437022E8 | Next Difficulty At Block: 276191 | Next Difficulty In: 955 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 1 hour, 54 minutes, and 53 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1116079088.26 | Estimated Percent Change: 22.86872
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14773 @ 0.00090383 = 13.3523 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 500 @ 0.001 = 0.5 BTC
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.25 = 0.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 25 @ 0.05 = 1.25 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12200 @ 0.00090354 = 11.0232 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG.F2] 1 @ 0.50000001 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12250 @ 0.00089975 = 11.0219 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: ;;estimate
gribble: Next difficulty estimate | 1115862283.67 based on data since last change | 1184576457.35 based on data for last three days
ThickAsThieves: the dream is over
pankkake: :(
ThickAsThieves: only gavin can save me now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.00089951 = 4.4976 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: TAT you made out on idiffs like a pig, don't cry now :D
ThickAsThieves: hehe
ThickAsThieves: actually the amount lost here is probly very close to amount gained on idiffs
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 301 @ 0.002845 = 0.8563 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 415 @ 0.00279697 = 1.1607 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 49 @ 0.00265123 = 0.1299 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3300 @ 0.00089803 = 2.9635 BTC [-]
azoo_: https://twitter.com/Heineken/status/412582896038580224/photo/1
ozbot: Twitter / Heineken: Our vision of the future? Drink ...
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.255 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 10 @ 0.04199999 = 0.42 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.25 = 1.25 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24700 @ 0.00090163 = 22.2703 BTC [+] {4}
taub_: hehe surprise guys let me raise the fees on my super active traedign platform to 0.3%
taub_: without giving you any warning
taub_: because i'm chinese
taub_: fucking btcchina
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 20 @ 0.05 = 1 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5750 @ 0.0008986 = 5.167 BTC [-]
jcpham: ;;seen mircea_popescu
gribble: mircea_popescu was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <mircea_popescu> ;;bcstats
ThickAsThieves: already like 2PH added since last diffchange yeesh
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1000 @ 0.00089803 = 0.898 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00089791 = 14.3666 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2291 @ 0.00089806 = 2.0575 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 3 @ 0.042 = 0.126 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 473 @ 0.05 = 23.65 BTC
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 12 @ 0.02489999 = 0.2988 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3359 @ 0.00090108 = 3.0267 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 1000 @ 0.001 = 1 BTC
mircea_popescu: taub_ better than 1% or w/e mtgox was doing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13893 @ 0.00090047 = 12.5102 BTC [-]
mike_c: coinbase is 1% too, although they aren't really an exchange.
gesell: whats the reason for the current crash?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5132 @ 0.00009079 = 0.4659 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: it's its party and it can crash if it wants to ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 14654 @ 0.0000871 = 1.2764 BTC [-] {5}
jcpham: you would crash too if it happened to you
mircea_popescu: Estimated1002357574 in 1167 blks
mircea_popescu: ;;bcstats
gribble: Current Blocks: 275265 | Current Difficulty: 9.08350862437022E8 | Next Difficulty At Block: 276191 | Next Difficulty In: 926 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 20 hours, 21 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1115703052.32 | Estimated Percent Change: 22.82732
mircea_popescu: lol bitcoincharts is a little behind the blox
pankkake: depends on how you compute it
pankkake: it's 1002 if nothing gets added
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10231 @ 0.00090013 = 9.2092 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: is it ?
mircea_popescu: i thought it'd be ~1050 even so
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.000896 = 5.2864 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.0499 = 0.499 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4950 @ 0.00089763 = 4.4433 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 500 @ 0.001 = 0.5 BTC
diametric: seems like the market is in full panic sell mode right now.
mike_c: buffet says this is a good time to be greedy
pankkake: is there a non-panic mode in bitcoin?
diametric: ahh also btc china has enacted a trading fee now
Duffer1: btcchina not allowing fiat withdraw (rumor)
mike_c: well, its posted on their site that they are requiring identification now
pankkake: well then it shouldn't crash at all
mike_c: heh, right. the gox effect.
mircea_popescu: aw shucks, not a billionaire again ?
mircea_popescu: btc y u so break my haert
mike_c: but now you get to enjoy the anticipation of being a billionaire again.
mircea_popescu: financial sex.
mircea_popescu: now you're in... now you're out. back in... back out...
diametric: just the tip
pizzaman1337: anyway... when does X.EUR start trading?
mircea_popescu: was supposed to start today. i guess davout is having some tech trouble ?
asciilifeform: new from the seekoority circus! http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00002647.html
mircea_popescu: wow f-secure, what a blast from the past
mircea_popescu: all i recall is this dos-age splash screen
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1150 @ 0.00089763 = 1.0323 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 128 @ 0.00241498 = 0.3091 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 200 @ 0.00241609 = 0.4832 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.251 = 0.502 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15400 @ 0.00089763 = 13.8235 BTC [+]
benkay: asciilifeform: i dreamt about a dataflow soup (using biocomputing elements) last night and then read your Alert Reader post this morning.
benkay: odd synchrony.
asciilifeform: haha
benkay: first i'd ever encountered the notion of dataflow stuff
benkay: i'm a near total neophyte to the execution of code and the things upon which they execute, so your grumpy old man attitude is fascinating to keep in mind while coming up to speed on the rest of the stack.
mircea_popescu: especially if you also keep in mind his age.
asciilifeform: phun phact: i've had people write to me: 'fscking keep over already, geezer'.
asciilifeform: *keel
asciilifeform: 'can't build our shiny new world with yer kind around'
asciilifeform: that fan mail was in '09.
asciilifeform: i turned 30 2 wks ago...
benkay: your prose does have the vitriol of not-totally-bleached youth ;)
kakobreklaa: fun fact, clark moody refused to advertise my service cause it was suspeicious of it being scammy. he does have a mcxnow banner on site, still.
mircea_popescu: herp.
mike_c: tell him your code is C++, and therefore can't be a scam.
jcpham: mircea_popescu facedesk
Duffer1: hehe
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.0008976 = 5.3856 BTC [-]
jcpham: mcxnow scam all day
KRS|Gotyawallet: +1
mircea_popescu: what are we voting on ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 13 @ 0.07062697 = 0.9182 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2836 @ 0.000896 = 2.5411 BTC [-]
benkay: no doge on mcxnow
benkay: scam
dub: ;;ud sharking
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sharking | To pull a girl's panties down in public, usually when she's wearing a short skirt. Very popular in Japan.
FabianB_: http://www.coindesk.com/china-bans-payment-companies-working-bitcoin-exchanges-sources-claim/ <-- has this been discussed already? am not through the backlog yet
mircea_popescu: FabianB_ in passing. not rly.
mircea_popescu: seems the usual overreaction. no such thing happened as far as anyone knows
mircea_popescu: but idiots love being overzealously silly.
Duffer1: couple of reddit rumor threads so far, that's all i've been able to find
FabianB_: they love loosing money by panicking it seems
FabianB_: the only third party 'payment provider' they mention in the article is Tenpay
FabianB_: didn't know any of them had anything directly to do with bitcoin
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22213 @ 0.00089553 = 19.8924 BTC [-] {4}
ThickAsThieves: they pulled similar shit with tencent rumors in the past
ThickAsThieves: like QQ would use btc or somthing
azoo: what about the just recent news about china banning withdrawals btc to fiat?
mircea_popescu: log's your friend
Duffer1: ;;ident lino
gribble: Error: I am not seeing this user on IRC. If you want information about a registered gpg user, try the 'gpg info' command instead.
Duffer1: wtf..
dub: ;;gpg info lino
gribble: No such user registered.
Duffer1: ya i was lookin in wrong chan >.<
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5550 @ 0.0008976 = 4.9817 BTC [+]
FabianB_: http://bitbet.us/bet/611/bitcoin-value-will-drop-back-to-450-or/ <-- hehe, if they panick to that level
ozbot: BitBet - Bitcoin value will drop back to $450 or below before Christmas
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6250 @ 0.0008976 = 5.61 BTC [+] {2}
ThickAsThieves: panic abounds!
jurov: $avg
mpexbot: jurov: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
jurov: ;;ticker --average
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Mtgox. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is (1 more message)
jurov: ;;ticker --avg
gribble: 816.33325
mircea_popescu: no love for jurov
jurov: .bait
ozbot: http://25.media.tumblr.com/4678fc7e2df00bd8dc4781e0ed288afc/tumblr_mp6aio31LD1s9olebo1_500.jpg
jurov: lol
pankkake: ozbot is being a smart ass
ThickAsThieves: ha!
sois: TAT, Did Friedcat respond on what the issue is with the direct transfer shares from last week?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 3000 @ 0.000094 = 0.282 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13400 @ 0.00089763 = 12.0282 BTC [+]
the20year2: jurov: the prevailing theory is that the heart shape is specifically that
ThickAsThieves: sois, no he has not
ThickAsThieves: seem i can only get his attention once each week
ThickAsThieves: seems*
sois: Okay, guess nothing we can do but wait till next dividend or his response
sois: :-
ThickAsThieves: i suspect he'll just fix it and not say anything...
ThickAsThieves: either way i'll square up any divs
sois: ok, sounds good
sois: i sent him a proposal that would automate the process, i'm guessing he is just using excel and manually doing it which must be a hassle
jurov: o looky, http://mpex.co/?mpsic=X.EUR&r=1 is on
mircea_popescu: what's r=1 do
mircea_popescu: oh.
jurov: i'll add it on coinbr, but it needs scary warning you need b-c account to settle it
mircea_popescu: $depth x.eur
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: X.EUR Bids: ['2000 @ 0.0016129', '100 @ 0.00153846', '350 @ 0.00147']
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: Asks: ['2000 @ 0.00227272']
ThickAsThieves: http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/16/5216862/bitcoin-is-so-2013-dogecoin-is-new-crypto-currency-on-the-block
ozbot: Bitcoin is so 2013: Dogecoin is new crypto currency on the block | The Verge
ThickAsThieves: wtf
mircea_popescu: jurov well you don't HAVE to settle, you can just sell it back later
the20year2: wow, petamine already has 3437 btc
Duffer1: .........................
Duffer1: more than they'll ever actually mine
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 1/0.0016129
gribble: 620.001240002
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 1/0.00227272
gribble: 440.001408005
mircea_popescu: $depth O.USD.C110T
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: O.USD.C110T Bids: ['1000 @ 1e-08', '1000 @ 1e-08']
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: Asks: ['1000 @ 0.00627926', '1000 @ 0.00627947', '5 @ 0.025']
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6559 @ 0.00089573 = 5.8751 BTC [-]
the20year2: i'm sure
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.00627926 * 110 + 110
gribble: 110.6907186
mircea_popescu: uh no
jurov: ;;bc,convert eur
gribble: 1 BTC = 749.9 USD = 544.80235 eur
mircea_popescu: $depth O.USD.C065T
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: O.USD.C065T Bids: ['1000 @ 0.01591501', '1000 @ 0.01591501']
mpexbot: mircea_popescu: Asks: ['1000 @ 0.02752279', '1000 @ 0.02752286']
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 0.01591501 / 0.02752279 - 0.0016129 / 0.00227272
gribble: -0.131429844848
mircea_popescu: whadda ya know. option spreads are narrow.
davout: ohai
davout: such future contract
davout: much spread
mircea_popescu: much spread
mircea_popescu: lol
jurov: wow
davout: wow
mircea_popescu: owo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4370 @ 0.00089622 = 3.9165 BTC [+] {2}
kakobreklaa: much spread
mircea_popescu: small amount of late, kako :D
davout: large amount of 'a'
kakobreklaa: large amount of lag to somaila
mircea_popescu: such internweb.
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 the20year2 have 3.5k according tp what/who ?
the20year2: ?
the20year2: according to havelock's chart
mircea_popescu: http://www.cryptx.com/peta-mine/ < this thing ?
ozbot: PETA-MINE | CryptX
Duffer1: wow they really have raised 3400 btc
Duffer1: https://www.havelockinvestments.com/fund.php?symbol=PETA
ThickAsThieves: hard to know
ThickAsThieves: even harder to care
Duffer1: i can't imagine that will ever rio
Duffer1: roi
mircea_popescu: "CryptX has a contract with Cointerra"
mircea_popescu: where's the cxontract
the20year2: course not
mircea_popescu: these people never heard of signatures etc ?
the20year2: And it's a sweet deal for the mining company......the cost to provide those GH goes down every day
the20year2: I always laugh at how these companies are set up, i've gone overboard with mine, and no one cares
mircea_popescu: anyway, pmb version 50. why even.
Duffer1: worse than a pmb
Duffer1: only 65% equity on offer
Duffer1: those assholes have gone overboard with that one
the20year2: they retain 65% or selling 65?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00090107 = 17.8412 BTC [+] {2}
Duffer1: they retain 35% of divs because..
the20year2: If you were the issuer , why not? Investors typically don't read the T &C , and if they do, few understand it
mircea_popescu: the20year2 and then you list the crap and get called a scam and don't understand why.
the20year2: I retain 35% of my divs too, but then I ponied up $30k+ into the fund :D
mircea_popescu: who was asking me earlier ?
the20year2: Who cares if they get called a scam? They've already pocketed 2.8m in investments
the20year2: makes me wish i'd of asked for 5k bitcoins instead of the 700
Duffer1: what's your project the20?
the20year2: buying income producing real estate with bitcoins
Duffer1: oohh right
mircea_popescu: stealing 2.8mn from idiots does not make the stolen funds investments.
the20year2: is it theft if they willingly hand it over?
Duffer1: fleecing the ignorant is little better than theft imo
ThickAsThieves: ...
mircea_popescu: it's not a business.
mircea_popescu: whatever it is.
Vexual: courts oft call it theft
Duffer1: it's not intended to benefit the investor so i'd call that a scam, maybe not "theft"
ThickAsThieves: last i checked, taking candy from babies wasn't good for the rep
the20year2: *Hopefully* the end result will be smarter investors
mircea_popescu: it usually is.
ThickAsThieves: it's a tsunami of dumb tho
Duffer1: smarter, broke, investors hehe
ThickAsThieves: good luck
deadweasel: knowledge is valuable :)
mircea_popescu: ;;genrate 240000000
gribble: The expected generation output, at 240000000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 908350862.437, is 132.875487804 BTC per day and 5.5364786585 BTC per hour.
mircea_popescu: did i get the 0s right ?
mircea_popescu: 240 th they say they're deploying, selling the lot for 50k btc.
ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
gribble: 8658640.6558
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11330 @ 0.00089857 = 10.1808 BTC [-]
the20year2: how long to set up the 240th?
mircea_popescu: will hit even in 300 days of constant difficulty. also known as never.
mircea_popescu: the20year2 two weeks from january.
the20year2: nice
the20year2: I wonder what kind of facility they're in
the20year2: My brother's looking at local warehouses/factories to deploy in, and the cost for setup and time involved is immense
the20year2: It's not like you can just find a datacenter and say "hey let me put my stuff in there"
mircea_popescu: well savage family has some free space.
mircea_popescu: Bitmine ever deliver anything so far ?
Duffer1: a bunch of spam mail to my inbox but that's about it
Duffer1: no i'm not sure if they've actually shipped though
mircea_popescu: so basically this is a 25% actual rigs (from cointerra) and 75% vaporware.
mircea_popescu: deal gets better and better.
the20year2: Nice
ThickAsThieves: sounds a lot like ActM
mircea_popescu: who's behind this ?
mircea_popescu: yeah, it does.
mircea_popescu: and the mo is quite similar, too.
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=215431.0
ozbot: Official Avalon mining rig clones thread from bitmine.ch (NOW SHIPPING)
mircea_popescu: some guy, giorgiomassa
mircea_popescu: which is an italian name. making avalon clones.
mircea_popescu: now how does he do that ?
the20year2: coinlab money?
ThickAsThieves: he used the ghosted Avalon chips
ThickAsThieves: uses*
ThickAsThieves: (not srs)
mircea_popescu: is it this guy ? http://www.massarotto.com/
ThickAsThieves: dunno
mircea_popescu: ok so basically they mostly delivered an avalon clone on a 9 month schedule, and announced a 28nm process on a 3 month schedule late sept.
mircea_popescu: so maybe they deliver, in the summer.
ThickAsThieves: like bfl monarchs
ThickAsThieves: i still have my email spam from them
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.00089815 = 3.413 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: promising xmas delivery
mircea_popescu: xmas delivery is a thing.
mircea_popescu: "Even with weights, allowing a diff bet to be open to bets till so close to the resolution date, enormously reduces the incentive to bet until it is an obvious call and thus limits the size of the bets to a few eager early beters plus roughly double the late skimmers. No money in between an thus smaller overall rollers."
mircea_popescu: does this guy have a point ?
ThickAsThieves: yes
jurov: kinda yes
mircea_popescu: so then what dio you do, have all these bets you can't bet on ?
mircea_popescu: cause they closed last week and resolve in a month ?
ThickAsThieves: more curvy weight loss
jurov: no, all the bets i can bet, but have weight like 50k or 30k
mircea_popescu: jurov huh ?
kakobrekla: [21:49:25] <ThickAsThieves> more curvy weight loss
jurov: yes, updating the curve could help
kakobrekla: you need more fat for more cuvers you know
kakobrekla: curves
Vexual: .bait
ozbot: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdhd6p65yj1qdxglyo1_1280.jpg
ThickAsThieves: you know what i mean tho?
ThickAsThieves: weight needs to drop off harder
kakobrekla: you like fat women?
kakobrekla: ah
ThickAsThieves: the curve
mike_c: not sure that's any different than just closing early
ThickAsThieves: it let speople bet
mircea_popescu: not only what mike_c said, but also... then how do you specify the curve.
Vexual: risk and reward
ThickAsThieves: of course then you run into the other issue of letting people make losing winning bers
ThickAsThieves: bets*
mircea_popescu: yeah.
ThickAsThieves: what if weight was 'spent'
mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/619/bitcoin-difficulty-at-or-above-2b-before-feb/
ozbot: BitBet - Bitcoin difficulty at or above 2B before Feb 2014
mircea_popescu: i can't even follow the guy's idea
mircea_popescu: what has materially changed in that bet since a month ago ?
mircea_popescu: it's still pretty wild.
jurov: hm, there should exist some curve how the prediction accuracy increases over time for natural phenomena
ThickAsThieves: if they keep adding PHs every week that bet...
jurov: and weight would be inverse of it
jurov: and i strongly dount that curve is linear
ThickAsThieves: pretty good assumption
mike_c: i'm warming up to the 'spend weight' idea
mircea_popescu: jurov just do a historical average of all science ?
jurov: can't black-scholes be applied?
mircea_popescu: mike_c i dunno what it'd be
mircea_popescu: explain it ?
ThickAsThieves: something like,
mike_c: it puts something of a cap on the bets, but whatever.
mike_c: like, you bet 50btc, the weight drops 50k
ThickAsThieves: you start with 100,000 weight
Vexual: science? is 100% science
mircea_popescu: jurov a nonlinear curve would, of course, have to somehow be communicated to the bettors, which may take 16 months of scam accusations in the btctalk.
ThickAsThieves: then each bet get 10% of that weight, but new bet's weight is offset
ThickAsThieves: by the amount of coin betted
ThickAsThieves: to avoid losing winners
ThickAsThieves: so first bettor get 10,000 weight
mircea_popescu: i can follow mike_c proposal but not yours, and moreover they seem quite distinct
ThickAsThieves: next gets 9000 weight or whatever
jurov: http://weather.mailasail.com/w/uploads/Franks-Weather/Skill-graph.jpg this is for weather forecasts
ThickAsThieves: i honestly dont havce it thought thru
mircea_popescu: jurov interesting...
mike_c: if you "buy" weight, it encourages you to 1) wait for more info, but 2) get in before someone else gets all the good weight
jurov: source: http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Forecast-Accuracy-Limitations
ThickAsThieves: mike_c it's already the case
mike_c: not really
mircea_popescu: mike_c how do you anchor it ? why 50k and not 492 ?
ThickAsThieves: bet early does get you better weight
ThickAsThieves: just the curve is slowwww
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves basically he proposes to not use a time function, but a bet function
mike_c: only marginally. but if you auction off weight, it changes the dynamic a lot
mircea_popescu: likle the blockchain
ThickAsThieves: ah i see
ThickAsThieves: thats totally diff
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5255 @ 0.00089815 = 4.7198 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: starting to sound like that other site
mircea_popescu: mike_c how is your idea different from just splitting the pool according to a polynomial (bet sum) ?
ThickAsThieves: where you can sell your bet position
mike_c: thinking it through. i believe it is different because the guy who bets the first 10btc gets more than the guy who bets the last 10btc
mircea_popescu: yes, but his more is a function of the total bet.
mircea_popescu: or w/e, model this for me
mircea_popescu: mebbe i only think i got what you mean
mike_c: yeah, i'll think it through.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00090127 = 14.9611 BTC [+]
Vexual: you're only talking about difficulty bets?
mircea_popescu: Vexual it's where people seem to think they do a lot better at predicting outcomes as time goes by
ThickAsThieves: like that minimum wage one
ThickAsThieves: it;s old but
ThickAsThieves: if it's not on the agenda for the gov by a certain date
ThickAsThieves: you know it aint gona happen
mircea_popescu: i mean to be clear, im not proposing linear timeweight is the absolutely correct solution. it's obviously wrong, life isn't linear.
mircea_popescu: however, it may be the best approximation, depending how the problem is actually defined
ThickAsThieves: what if it's a fixed amount of weight that can be given, then the 'price' of weight is determined by the amount of coins bet prior.
mircea_popescu: the who ?
mircea_popescu: jurov what's that curve even, its not a sine section.
Vexual: a curve from the difficulty estimate?
ThickAsThieves: no
mircea_popescu: he linked some stuff above from weather prediction
Vexual: perhaps the weather curve is plotted from data
mircea_popescu: prolly
ThickAsThieves: any tapering over time would be better than linear
Vexual: add some function to the diff estimate to make a sexy curve
jurov: can't find any supporting maths, looks like fully empirical
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves that can't be true.
ThickAsThieves: i mean that in the starting from linear sense, not saying an extreme taper would be better
mircea_popescu: "any woman would be better than the girl next door. except, you know, a really annoying pornstar. or a quadriplegic. or a butch lesbian."
ThickAsThieves: like said, not meant to be taken to extremes
ThickAsThieves: meant to move the meter
Vexual: u in it for the money or in it for the love?
ThickAsThieves: like 1 bj per year is better than zero
ThickAsThieves: but 1000 is maybe too much
mircea_popescu: mike_c one major problem of the not-time approach is, what if right before your 10btc bet makes it, someone puts in a 1k btc bet.
mircea_popescu: you basically now live in a cloudy soup of "i can't fucking know wjhat i'm betting on"
jurov: 1+cos(x) in the 0,pi interval? but yes, needs some modelling what would be the effect
mircea_popescu: jurov looks too un-sine to be a sine imo.
jurov: insinity
mircea_popescu: ianal.
mircea_popescu: lol
jurov: just throw weierstrass function in
jurov: epic outrage
mircea_popescu: what can math possibly hurt.
mircea_popescu: blancmange. moar like tits.
mike_c: mircea_popescu: yeah, i was thinking about that. but its not like its not a cloudy soup right now.
jurov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blancmange_curve is moar like tits
ozbot: Blancmange curve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
mircea_popescu: but at least you know what weight you get.
Vexual: popescu curve
mike_c: which is still only a piece of it. because if someone drops that 1k bet down on my side my odds still tank
mircea_popescu: but not more than his.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't give him cake and you penis.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6600 @ 0.00090128 = 5.9484 BTC [+] {2}
mike_c: yes. not unsolvable though.
mircea_popescu: what are you, an engineer ?
mike_c: sometimes
ThickAsThieves: what if you just offer 4 curve pictures when making bet, maybe in a Edit Curve button, one tapers early, one late, one linear, one like Franks Weather
ThickAsThieves: then you can overlay the curve chosen on the graph pic for each bet
ThickAsThieves: or sumth
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.257 BTC [+]
mike_c: steep curves late are the same as early closing imo
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves this discussion mostly started because users can't be arsed to use the fine tuning implem,ents already available
mircea_popescu: not like i won't let you make a bet that expires early or that ends with w/e weight etc
asciilifeform: next thing we know, bitbet gets a scripting language, and we're playing 'Core Wars.'
ThickAsThieves: then mods can decide curve?
mircea_popescu: mno ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somethin' like that.
Vexual: you'll end up with a flat line
asciilifeform: what ever happened to the fellow who was going to offer 'pwn by box for 10 btc?'
asciilifeform: *my
mircea_popescu: prolly something unfortunate
asciilifeform: afaik the offer never went live
asciilifeform: he was offering 'get a root account, and see if you can get past my fancy memory partitioner plugin'
mircea_popescu: was it jurov ?
asciilifeform: no, some random face
jurov: nope, i dont give root :)
asciilifeform: pwn contests for btc prize are an underdeveloped field
Vexual: lol
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00243999 = 0.244 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.257 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: if the arena keeper is reputable, people will play
asciilifeform: otherwise nobody cares to part with an 0day for a prize that may or may not exist.
mircea_popescu: this is a point
mircea_popescu: i guess roua's accident recently left a hole.
dub: s.pwn?
mircea_popescu: besides, btc makes us about 5000x as powerful as fiat ever was
mircea_popescu: what's apple gonna do, come here and bitch ?
dub: >9000x tbh
mircea_popescu: myeah
mircea_popescu: im kinda looking forward to the day when the old world starts actually paying lawyers to troll irc.
mircea_popescu: i can be all, ha, i was doing this in 2012 newbs.
asciilifeform: there's no possible substitute for arena reputation, though; with the possible exception of holding the contest inside a faraday cage, with the target machine signing messages with its addr key on demand.
asciilifeform: perhaps the game is not being played formally because 95% of the btc community is already playing it informally
asciilifeform: without necessarily intending to.
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: i don't think there's possible substitution for reputation generally.
asciilifeform: 0day + lamer -> crying lamer, 0 probably stays 0; 0day + arena -> possibly nothing, 0 is now 1+
mircea_popescu: this was "news" in 200 bc too. i dunno why it's so counterintuitive
asciilifeform: 'you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.'
Vexual: can we have drones with cameras reading keystrokes in the arena?
asciilifeform: Vexual: the arena in question may not be a literal one; the original issue was how to prove that the target actually contains a prize.
asciilifeform: the 'piñata', if you will.
Vexual: you propose to make it more sporting by making it less sporting
Vexual: but legal
asciilifeform: it's a standard 'trading in the desert' situation
asciilifeform: player may (or may not) have 0day
asciilifeform: arena may (or may not) have prize.
asciilifeform: player, by playing, necessarily reveals his hand.
asciilifeform: how to motivate him
BingoBoingo: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/H81%20Pro%20BTC/
ozbot: ASRock > H81 Pro BTC
BingoBoingo: Awfully late to the party with this...
Vexual: i still prefer the physical areana with drones, paid for by discorvey channel
kakobrekla: lol wtf pro btc
asciilifeform: 'Just plug in the USB Key and let your computer log in to windows automatically!'
Vexual: then sell your 0 days to market with the advertising
asciilifeform: no one has yet invented a means whereby unknowns can sell secrets to unknowns.
kakobrekla: omg wtf the mobo has dehumidifier
Vexual: no thats the beauty of it, by removing that special part of the whole game, you reintroduce it again
asciilifeform: Vexual: where do you intend to find the fools who will drop their 0day panties in public?
asciilifeform: anyone who wants to show off can do this already simply by using the weapon 'in anger' the usual way.
mike_c: this is really good:
mike_c: http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/Workshops/Markets/pennock.pdf
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: I take that to mean they'll randomly power up the computer when you aren't using to to see if you found any bitcoins yet.
mike_c: "A Dynamic Pari-Mutuel Market for Hedging, Wagering, and Information Aggregation"
kakobrekla: :))
Vexual: thats what i mean ascii, the area is fake
asciilifeform: planet has enough fake things
asciilifeform: how about something real for a twist.
mircea_popescu: mike_c did the academia folks invent something again ?
mike_c: it's got some good proposals for how to do it. i'm working on the tl;dr.
mircea_popescu: i like this guy.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7850 @ 0.00090279 = 7.0869 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9450 @ 0.00090295 = 8.5329 BTC [+] {2}
Vexual: j Applied Meteorology
asciilifeform: if we're doing papers, try this on for size: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/hashlife.pdf
asciilifeform: (a bit of a hog, scanned it personally from the original print)
asciilifeform: anyone who can figure out how to apply it to sha2 wins... +inf.
mike_c: how could i possibly open a pdf from someone i know could hack the shit out of me if he wanted to?
asciilifeform: how do you breathe air.
mike_c: carefully?
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: somebody could've mixed some strange in.
mircea_popescu: pdfs need to die already
Duffer1: preach it brother
asciilifeform: if jpeg came in multi-page variant, i'd have jpeg.
asciilifeform: tldr version: exponential speedup for cellular automata algos
asciilifeform: phys. d. 1984. 75-80
asciilifeform: (bill gosper)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9414 @ 0.00090012 = 8.4737 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: basic idea is to 'compress' time and space simultaneously
asciilifeform: (sounds weird, but it wurks)
sundun_: hi
ll: open it in a vm
ll: or use pdf2jpg.com or similar
kakobrekla: NSA also does this for you
pankkake: multipage jpeg is called tar :)
BingoBoingo: Whatever is wrong with TeX for passing documents?
asciilifeform: doc in question is a scan
asciilifeform: from dead tree.
kakobrekla: ocr?
asciilifeform: with pictures.
mircea_popescu: we need a better format.
kakobrekla: dam pictures.
kakobrekla: i like png better.
pankkake: png scans are HUGE
kakobrekla: yes cause scans sucks
pankkake: unless you do black and white with high contrast filter
kakobrekla: mhm
asciilifeform: ok lazy kids http://loper-os.nfshost.com/pub/hl/hl.html
mike_c: ok.. i think i understand enough to design bitbet v2.
pankkake: when is the ipo?
mike_c: i'll ask havelock. probably tomorrow.
mike_c: basically you buy shares in the outcome (this is not tradesports). share price is based on the current proportion of bets. so buying one share costs 0.1, but buying two shares cost 0.22, etc.
asciilifeform: (should be http://www.loper-os.org/pub/hl/hl.html for permalink)
mike_c: price of shares will be driven to whatever probability is currently expected.
mike_c: so early bettors get better prices
mike_c: and when an event is basically decided, share prices go through the roof on that side
asciilifeform: is this predicated on identity costing >0 ?
mike_c: no
asciilifeform: because what's to stop 1000 socks for buying 1000 shares for 0.1 each
mike_c: can't be done. it's like an order book
mike_c: but the order book is filled with the algorithmically determined prices
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00090097 = 9.0097 BTC [+]
mike_c: so everyone knows its fair
asciilifeform: so share 1 is sold for 0.1. share 2 is sold, to an apparently different buyer for, ?
mike_c: 0.11
mike_c: bettor would basically put in a limit order
asciilifeform: ok
Vexual: then it starts sounding like something else
mike_c: but not, because it's not just an open market
mike_c: and there is no market-maker
mike_c: except, there is always buy-liquidity from the opposing side
mike_c: it does, however, allow you to sell your shares if you want
Vexual: nat a bet
mike_c: huh?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 754 @ 0.00241562 = 1.8214 BTC [-] {4}
mike_c: if there is sufficient interest from people i can work up a simulation.
mike_c: the nice thing about is that you don't need a time weight. early bettors get better odds, and it will naturally get squeezed off when the market knows the event is decided.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00090317 = 6.2319 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 5 @ 0.09304399 = 0.4652 BTC [+] {5}
mircea_popescu: so let's run through this. bet is gribble's coin toss comes out heads.
mircea_popescu: what now ?
Vexual: do 3 in a row mircea
mircea_popescu: nah, one's enough for this
mike_c: well, i think parimutuel wagering on mathematical things is silly :)
mircea_popescu: that aside
pankkake: is gribble provably fair?
mircea_popescu: it dun matter what the bet is.
mike_c: let's say the democrats when the next US pres election
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 5 @ 0.09975999 = 0.4988 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: so what do i do now ?
mike_c: BB seeds with 0.6, 0.4
mircea_popescu: ok
mircea_popescu: i think irl bitbet seeds more like .3 .7 bu anyway
mike_c: now there will be a share price for each one (there are a variety of pricing functions) to buy a share in each outcome
mike_c: but that share price is an integral
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?
mircea_popescu: i got 10 btc on the dems right here. i send it to your site. what happens ?
mike_c: you get x shares of 'dems winning'
mircea_popescu: "x" ?
mircea_popescu: scam.
mike_c: no, it's all math
mike_c: no scam
mircea_popescu: all math is scam. so what's your x on my 10 btc ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 11113 @ 0.00009487 = 1.0543 BTC [+] {2}
mike_c: you will be able to see when you place your bet. it will say "1 share: 0.1 btc, 1 more share: 0.2 btc, 1 more share: 0.5 btc"
mircea_popescu: ...
Duffer1: it sounds like you're trying to dumb it down for noobs by overcomplicating it
Duffer1: it = weighting
mircea_popescu: so if i spend 10 btc i get a number of shares you can't specify. wjhat happens next ?
mike_c: it's basically an algorithmically generated order book for shares in 'dems win'
mike_c: i can specify, just can't do the integral off the top of my head.
mircea_popescu: algorithmically generated order books aren't used irl
mircea_popescu: guess why.
mike_c: um.
mike_c: i give up.
mircea_popescu: mike_c so guess dood. weren't you an engineer ?
Vexual: u can have an algo gen weighting curve tho, dont even need to update faq
mircea_popescu: that was quick ;/
mike_c: in my mind it works. i may not be explaining correctly
mircea_popescu: just guess the value of the integral, it won't kill you .not like it's a binding contract or anything
mircea_popescu: just a little numerical analysis
mike_c: ok, lemme figure it.
mircea_popescu: now he goes all taylor on it i bet
mircea_popescu: (1st share 1 btc, 2nd share 1.3 btc etc ftr)
mike_c: if i guess the bridge will fall down when you drive over it.
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: we're trying to see how that'd go atm
mike_c: m = M1[e^(n\n2) - 1]
mike_c: gimme a sec :)
mircea_popescu: e ?
mircea_popescu: why not pi.
mike_c: yes
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00239999 = 0.24 BTC [-]
sbp: Bill Gosper's paper is also at https://www.lri.fr/~filliatr/m1/gol/gosper-84.pdf
sbp: some C code here, haven't tried it: http://dotat.at/prog/life/hashlife.c
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=352830.0 << check out the paperwork that went into a
ozbot: Fudda'd by muddafudda
mircea_popescu: 5 ltc dispute
mircea_popescu: now we know it's the end of the world.
mike_c: ok ok
mike_c: wag: you would get about as many shares as 0.7 has (if 0.7 was on dems)
mike_c: so coming in and dropping 10btc on a bet with only 0.3 on the other side, not so great.
mike_c: just like bbv1
mircea_popescu: bbv1 is neutral on thsi score. if someone buys the other side later it lifts you up
mircea_popescu: does your thing lift me up ?
mike_c: as would this. you are buying shares in dems. later, money comes in on reps, your intrinsic share value goes up
mircea_popescu: aite, so let's try it. since you're somehow decided it must be 0.1s for some reason, i put 0.5 on dems. what's that do ?
mike_c: you get half as many as the 0.7 has
mircea_popescu: so i get 5, say.
mike_c: um, 3.5 to his 7, yes
mircea_popescu: ok. now, i come and put 0.7 on dems. what's this do ?
mike_c: you get like 1 share
mircea_popescu: aite. so dems side is now 3 (opresumably) + 3.5 + .95 shares
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 13 @ 0.07012307 = 0.9116 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: and .3 + .5 + .7 = 1.5 btc
mircea_popescu: right ?
mike_c: er, heres my math: shares: (7 + 3.5 + 1) = 11.5 shares (0.7 + 0.5 + 0.7) = 1.9 btc on dems
mircea_popescu: o o ok i see. i mixed the .3 and .7 aite
mircea_popescu: so now obama comes and dumps 10 btc on reps. cause he's hedging.
mircea_popescu: how many shares does this buy him ?
mike_c: ~40
mike_c: with BB having seeded 3 shares
mircea_popescu: aite.
mircea_popescu: now, the reps lose, obviously.
mircea_popescu: how do you split the 10.3 ?
mike_c: company decision. it can be done so that all the money is split, or only the losers money.
mike_c: er, so you said the losers
mike_c: 0.7 early -> 6.26 0.5 mid -> 3.13 0.7 late -> 0.9
mircea_popescu: even if these could be within five minutes of each other ?
mike_c: yes. that's the beauty.
mircea_popescu: so any new bet is basically a landrush to buy the early shares ?
mircea_popescu: basically to extract value out of this scheme all you need to know is your avg volume
mike_c: not exactly. the bet should always, throughout its lifetime, float around its current probability
mike_c: and if you see an imbalance, you are incented to act quickly
mircea_popescu: but if i know that a certain bet will reach say 200 btc total wagered
mike_c: whereas right now an imbalance means nothing
mircea_popescu: then as long as the odds are 10:1 or less i am safe buying 10 btc each side, cheap shares
mike_c: first off, that is currently the situation with BB. betting early on a high volume bet is a guaranteed win.
asciilifeform: unrelated: crypto-auction! https://groups.google.com/d/msg/urbit-dev/KNkFS_34P_I/RQmpPTkP2tcJ
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14550 @ 0.00090244 = 13.1305 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 40 @ 0.0248 = 0.992 BTC [-]
mike_c: but shares do not devalue with time in this scheme.
mike_c: that is, say the situation went differently.
mike_c: 0.7 on dems, then 10 on reps
mike_c: now i can buy profitable dem shares again
mike_c: and am incented to do so quickly, before someone else does
mike_c: so the right time to bet is when i feel the odds are wrong, which isn't really the case right now
mircea_popescu: suppose i send 1 btc, ion the reps, and discover i didn't get 8 shares but .7 because someone put 10btc in 10 minutes before me.
mircea_popescu: i now go to the forum and open a scam thread, saying you put the 10 btc
mircea_popescu: what do you do ?
mike_c: you basically put in a limit order. "buy up to 10btc of shares at up to 0.2 each"
mike_c: nobody unhappy, because if that whale gets in before you, you just don't get filled
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21331 @ 0.00090148 = 19.2295 BTC [-] {2}
mike_c: and now you bet the other side.
mircea_popescu: ...
mike_c: it's right. i feel it. i'll build a simulation.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1000 @ 0.00089511 = 0.8951 BTC [-]
mike_c: unless something seems way off to you. like the idea of putting in a limit order.
mircea_popescu: i just gave an example
mircea_popescu: what do you do in that case ?
mike_c: you have to refund I guess. I'm on bitbet, i say "i want 10btc of dems at up to 0.2 per share". You generate an address and in your DB mark it as a limit order at 0.2. if you can only fill 5btc of it you have to send the other 5 back..
mircea_popescu: this will be a pain to run.
mircea_popescu: moving on : how do you sort within a block ?
mircea_popescu: say both me and kako send in block 275000. who goes in first ?
mike_c: yes.. well, JD creamed satoshi-dice because having an account has advantages :)
mike_c: lemme think on sorting.
mike_c: same block, sort by bet time?
thestrin1puller: mircea_popescu: when you retrieve depth stat and matches to json stat, no? So is it possibly to just take current top ask/bid depth value and translate it into market buy or market sell?
thestrin1puller: i'm sure this has been asked before so I apologize
mircea_popescu: well sure it is, bash/python/we you use
mircea_popescu: mike_c the time value is iffy
mike_c: i meant bet time on BitBet, but you reuse addresses, so you won't always have that.
mircea_popescu: (depending who mines the block the same exact tx can end up with diff timestamps)
mircea_popescu: like say pool x could mine me before kako, and pool y could mine kako before me
mike_c: ah, block time isn't dependable?
mircea_popescu: nope.
mircea_popescu: in the best case is "when we heard the tx"
mircea_popescu: or, what the node that told us the tx said
mircea_popescu: or, what the user making the tx said the time was
mircea_popescu: or we
mircea_popescu: the blockchain exists in the first place because time isnt reliable.
mircea_popescu: otherwise we'd just use timestamps
mike_c: this may not be possible without accounts.. which i guess makes it no good for BB.
mircea_popescu: how do you time accounts ?
mike_c: i mean like having balances on BB
mircea_popescu: even so ?
mike_c: ala JD
mike_c: then its the same as mpex
mircea_popescu: jd isn't a mega concurrency engine. ppl bet the house
mircea_popescu: that may be a little expensive to make.
mike_c: except the order of magnitude is lower
thestrin1puller: ;;ticker
gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 740.0, Best ask: 743.28947, Bid-ask spread: 3.28947, Last trade: 740.0, 24 hour volume: 40151.84292354, 24 hour low: 714.11, 24 hour high: 928.0, 24 hour vwap: 800.48436
mike_c: so it doesn't need to be mpex
mircea_popescu: honestly i dun see myself using it, sounds like a sort of bettrade w/e that thing was called, except with a perhaps very broken auto-mm tacked on
mike_c: the mm is just a help to see what you're getting.
mike_c: similar to the calculator on BB right now
mircea_popescu: if you're gonna do that may as well just make it the thing, let people trade shares.
mircea_popescu: or for that matter invest in zh's darling, i forget what it was called.
thestrin1puller: mircea_popescu: on "stat" call
thestrin1puller: do you get back every transaction you've ever made?
mircea_popescu: since last stat.
mircea_popescu: or an hour prior or something like that
Bunnyh: how about sorting bets in the same block by creation time of betting addresses?
thestrin1puller: oh wow
mircea_popescu: Bunnyh he wants accts i thought
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8026 @ 0.00089501 = 7.1834 BTC [-] {2}
mike_c: if it can be done without accts, all the better. just sorting incoming bets is the problem.
mike_c: and the fact that you would need to potentially return money.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: so for the "average" mpex user they would need to call stat evert "blah" hours and keep a log of all of them to record every trade/transaction they've made on mpex no?
mircea_popescu: and the fact that you will need a very solid api or nobody will mm it.
mircea_popescu: bbet's interface is very simple by design, but your thing would be sort-of like the rpc call of all time
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller they can call it once a month
thestringpuller: but they would need a "stat.log" or something?
mircea_popescu: well w/e they wish to use
jurov: that
mircea_popescu: yes, if they want to store data they;ll need a filesystem or some other similar implement
thestringpuller: of course, but the user has to record, mpex doesn't have SoR
jurov: thas's why pympex logs by default
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 24 @ 0.045 = 1.08 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: yea, but I was seeing how the user could see more of their trades in a gui
thestringpuller: like a large table
mircea_popescu: in principle a good client logs.
thestringpuller: and stat only shows recent, was seeing if the user would be the SoR
thestringpuller: if so then user would load previous logs into new client
thestringpuller: then have all trade data for that account
mike_c: if this were a simple problem we wouldn't be talking about it. simple designs are great, but limiting.
mircea_popescu: no argument.
mircea_popescu: still, we use http and tcp/ip
mircea_popescu: we don't use windows or macos
mike_c: yeah, i just feel like we're talking about tcp KEEP_ALIVE and deciding it's too complicated :) even tcp is complicated.
mike_c: i'll think on it some more. and can maybe explain more clearly.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.2599 = 0.7797 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: tcp ios kinda complicated...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.0008963 = 11.383 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 895 @ 0.00240374 = 2.1513 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 9 @ 0.25414444 = 2.2873 BTC [-] {4}