log☇︎
1600+ entries in 0.627s
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 possibly not aptgetting a binary but instead building source may fix it for you ? << yeah, this is always a bad idea. only reason i did it, was to get an ada env stood up quickly. i had a super weird problem on the first environment that I tried on. the gnat version didn't match the gcc version and was getting like non-determinstic errors.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: not the problem. my thing builds on both adacore's and trad gnu gnat. << yeah not sure what the problem is. it's a binary installation of gnat via apt-get, so that, i'm sure is part of the issue. however, it works better than the first ada configuration that I had, which, didn't work at all.
asciilifeform: and incidentally in case anyone reading this is not really awake, the method of calculating factorial shown in the ada proggy is brainmeltingly dumb. you really want a tree, most of it is smallint mult
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-16#1684855 << i'ma need a copy of your ada tarballs, to see exactly how, but it has been shitgnomed into uselessness ☝︎
asciilifeform: and i will say, if my makefile dun work on your box, in fact you do not have a working ada setup.
mod6: ah, Ada was Lord Byron's daughter
phf: i think a good exercise is to rewrite one of the existing c machine subtrates from cmucl or sbcl in ada. but left for another lifetime
asciilifeform: (not a bad exercise, btw -- make a 'tinyscheme' in ada)
asciilifeform: phf: contrary to appearances, asciilifeform is not fixated on ada lang per se, but rather on the style of thinking it leads the operator into. ☟︎
phf: bulk of ada code i've seen so far is very much workingmen code, cobol like stuff from the belly of industrial facilities
phf: well, problem is that there doesn't seem to be much in terms of tasteful ada code available to public. with common lisp you can go to mid-90s and before and you start getting some very reasonable works, worthy imitation.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 19:40 asciilifeform: mod6, phf , et al : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/horsecocks.tar.gz << i dun recall posting this before, so here it will live, for nao : unofficial release of mmaptron
asciilifeform: the other thing to remember, is that the win from writing in ada - but not in ada in general, but the style demonstrated in ffa in particular -- remains even if YOU HAVE NO ACCESS TO GNAT and gotta compile by hand into asm. because it forces the style of algo that CAN be safely so expressed - i.e. without presumption of pointerolade arithmetic, gc, or other cost-externalizing electrosocialisms ☟︎
phf: fwiw it invalidate your thesis that ada is hipster proof
asciilifeform: ada had this slow accumulation of concession-to-'mainstreamindustry' barnacle crud
asciilifeform: but overall not a bad time to note, there are afaik no public examples of 'how to ada' that would have satisfied asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: pretty lulzy shitfest. great resource for learning 'how not to ada'
phf: another amusing point for how little it does AND assisted by both ada and spark they still manage to introduce 3 "mistakes"
asciilifeform: probably an ada build and a handrolled asm, per cpu make, is best that can be had.
asciilifeform: ( ffa in asm is - somewhat surprisingly - easier than ada or even c )
asciilifeform: mod6: you won't physically ever see a segfault in ada proggy built with default 'fascism' level
mod6: so recently, i've done some multi-d array programming in ada..
asciilifeform: ada is a thing for a reason, i found. hence this entire thread.
asciilifeform: in much the same way as 'in' parameters (in ada procedures)
asciilifeform: seekrit : in the 'most fascist' restriction mode, ada... copies slices
mircea_popescu: why does ada do that, anyway ?
asciilifeform: 'p' currently is ~2.5k of ada. and getting thinner.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680565 << it stalled at the discovery that 1) performance is abysmal 2) for wholly fundamental reasons ( of shit-poor rewritable data structures forced by 'generic fs' shape ) 3) all extant fs would have to be patched regardless to remove idiot node caps, and may as well write proper db from scratch that is bitcoin-shaped 5) asciilifeform then wrote the latter, in ada, and put on shelf, to pick up a ☝︎
mod6: im ~starting~ to get the hang of this ada stuff.
mircea_popescu: nah. ada.
mircea_popescu: sina write it in ada, that'll really put a bee in his bonnet.
asciilifeform: i'ma bake an ada mphashtron also. but currently in 'one piece on conveyor at a time' mode.
asciilifeform: and if you even so much as considering valgrind, your ada is ill-conceived
sina: asciilifeform: btw I was going to ask you about your feelings on this https://github.com/cforler/Ada-Crypto-Library ...obviously hasn't been impl for constant time/space but regardless. may be possible to ctgrind it using that valgrind patch I linked in the logs
asciilifeform: ( ada does not suffer from the c/cpp idiots' '95% of everything we do is not nailed down in the standard' horror )
asciilifeform: incidentally for all i know gcc5ism has not even touched gnat/ada
asciilifeform: ( either variant involves, sadly, a binary bootstrapper, as gnat is written in ada... )
shinohai: First of all, is this what I should be following? https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Ada
shinohai: btw mod6 .... I failed with the Ada/Gentoo thing the other night. Back to reading I suppose.
shinohai: !~later tell mod6 New makefiles test went smooth ... If you aren't head-banging over Ada I have question regarding Vim setup when you have time.
trinque: entirely worthwhile, for when one of us is next going through the Ada march.
asciilifeform: 'from 0' means that it is permissible to have an array of length 0 ( not in ffa ! but in ada )
mod6: (18:32) <+asciilifeform> sure does, see ada spec
asciilifeform: the 'index arrays from whatever' thing in ada is genius, it abolished the megatonnes of increments and decrements that litter c proggies and inevitably lead to 'fencepost' eggog
mod6: A'First denotes the lower bound of the first index range; its type is the corresponding index type." << http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/12rm/html/RM-3-6-2.html#I1941
asciilifeform: sure does, see ada spec
asciilifeform: ( or, charitably, because ada committee could not rely on ALL cpu having ability to return top word of mul, or even HAVING an iron mul )
phf: (500 lines of ada later...)
sina: I looked again through asciilifeform bignum lib in Ada
asciilifeform: not to say that there isn't a handful of very narrowly useful 'proof' mechanisms -- some of them appear in, e.g., ada's Spark
ben_vulpes: but proposed is not to exhume dos but run an ada os thinger?
asciilifeform: an ada '3d engine' would be quite a thing, incidentally
asciilifeform: i've found that teaching ada to c programmer is almost a miniature course in subj
asciilifeform: naggum had an interesting discussion re cl ( and iirc also mentioned ada, his other-language ) in re discouragement of 'easy to write small throwaway programs' as a factor in building durable infrastructure ( vs liquishit, which in his time consisted of microshit and of perlism )
mod6: speaking of ada stuff. i did get horsecocks to compile just fine with the changes that were discussed previously with diana_coman ☟︎
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: well, a) being lighthearted but b) the ada stuff?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-09#1667623 << believe or not -- i dun have one yet. at some point i'ma write an ada proggy ☝︎
sina: it'd be a lot more than 600 lines of ada that's for sure :P
sina: will it be ada this time?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, furthermore: adding -gnat12 got rid of the default discriminant barfs (as promised by ada docs) but I still have the complaints on prefix of "image" attribute
diana_coman: hmmm; asciilifeform at a quick make (on a machine where I played with Ada successfully - if little - before) I get this: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/lMtJf/?raw=true
diana_coman: I mean: I could call from C code the methods provided in Ada code
diana_coman: asciilifeform, thanks for the ping! re ada/c - my small tests some while ago went surprisingly well actually, maybe the code was way too simple to get into trouble
asciilifeform: incidentally diana_coman et al might find the paste interesting -- it demonstrates, also, ada/c glue.
asciilifeform: mod6, phf , et al : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/horsecocks.tar.gz << i dun recall posting this before, so here it will live, for nao : unofficial release of mmaptron ☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎
trinque: ada sits down happily on DOS eh?
asciilifeform: ada is slut enuff!11
herbijudlestoids: so I guess then it's not just a question of Ada, but also you want a good arch
herbijudlestoids: so is the consensus on Ada or full SPARK mode
herbijudlestoids: so is anyone going to link me this ada numeric lib by "alf" or not!
asciilifeform: herbijudlestoids: i'm not particularly interested in aiding & abetting microshit's attempts to embrace&extinguish ada
mircea_popescu: herbijudlestoids we pretty much settled on ada as the proper environment for critical code, more or less.
mircea_popescu: herbijudlestoids i take it you missed alf's ada numeric lib too ?
herbijudlestoids: good question... been spending a lot of time recently studying SPARK/Ada
asciilifeform: i like ada's gprbuild
mod6: I read through ffa, and it 'makes sense' to me as far as what you're doing in most cases -- as I understand the intent of the expressions. but i stand in awe, especially after trying my own hand at Ada, at what you've produced.
mod6: i really started getting into ada like... maybe a month or to ago, even though I kinda started nosing through the Ada 95 Ref book a while before.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> i get this. but using heap is even more of 'adventure' in ada. << ahh, i see.
asciilifeform: for instance, the almost ubiquitous c-ism, of creating a pointer (ada 'access') variable on a procedure's local (stack) and passing it to something -- anything -- is illegal ☟︎
asciilifeform: i get this. but using heap is even more of 'adventure' in ada.
asciilifeform: ada generics are interesting, they are not like cpp templates, not mere string substitution -- the thing actually has to prove correct for any legal invocation, anywhere
mod6: asciilifeform: aha. i can tell you from my own recent adventures into learning ada that it is strict, and strong.
asciilifeform: it's a classical 'my proggy doesn't work, because ada is harsh mistress' followed by week with book and bare hands/teeth and finally 'oh huh, i broke rule'
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in other non-news, http://www.nihamkin.com/2016/10/23/writing-linux-modules-in-ada-part-1
mircea_popescu: let the man do his ada rsa
asciilifeform: so far i've found that ada -- does
ben_vulpes: sounds happiest with ada, which is p. funny
mod6: apparently ada also allows inline-asm. who knew?
deedbot: asciilifeform rated ave1 1 << ada lurker
asciilifeform: !!rate ave1 1 ada lurker
mod6: workin on ada stuff?
asciilifeform: ( for 1 thing, no ada in it )
asciilifeform: hey gabriel_laddel_p -- do you know ada ?
phf`: i'm rewriting everything that asciilifeform is releasing in Ada in Rust, because it's secure AND modern! ☟︎
asciilifeform: in favour of a more intelligent, ada-specific thing
phf: mod6: this is anathem, but you could split the learning of ada and the build from sources into separate unrelated projects by downloading a prebuilt binary from adacore. that's what i did first, http://libre.adacore.com/download/ unpack whatever version ./doinstall puts all the binaries (including its own version of gcc) into a subdir structure you specify
mod6: anyway, seems a common theme with me and ada. starting to wonder if my compiler version is fubar or someweird shit.
mod6: im starting to get into ada things... but i have a lot of problems with `gnatmake`, not sure exactly why.
ben_vulpes: seems as though there is some "fun" to be had with ada
asciilifeform: incidentally it annoys asciilifeform that ada ( or for that matter any other procedural lang) offers no way to unroll the loops