log
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mircea_popescu: was later an anchor to try and give blogging a bad name, decade later phenomenon.
mircea_popescu: buncha tripod sites and such.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform naively imagined that the sr-flavoured honeypot 'agora' would have perma-nuked the 'brand' of 'agorism'
mircea_popescu: hello tightknittly brother sina
asciilifeform: but apparently not
sina waves
sina: how all today
sina: weekend!
sina: such excite.
mircea_popescu: we don't have weeks on this planet.
asciilifeform: ^
sina: y'all don't have nothin'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aren;t you proud ? but well done, there's nothing more fulfilling than for man to achieve goal he sets for himself.
sina: literally told me you don't believe in time!
mircea_popescu: sina it's a "sleep ad libitum" joke.
sina: :D
asciilifeform: sina: see logs
sina: mircea_popescu: you wanna play with this gossipthing yet?! otherwise I'
sina: 'ma tear down the shithost
mircea_popescu: sina honestly i kinda got the tech stuff i wanted to see already, but let's do one so it actually works and there's a "first line exchanged through prototype".
sina: yeah cool that's pretty much what I thought after yoru comments re sqlite/rsa being the main things needing changifying
mircea_popescu: sina ok so, paste the commands again if you will ? i'm logged.
sina: mircea_popescu: ssh root@45.77.66.53 in two windows, one 'gossipd'. other 'gossipc --send-message --source whoever --message whatever' and then 'gossipc -g' to view msgs
mircea_popescu: 2017-07-08 00:06:57|delivered_by:self|sender:urmom|ugachuga
mircea_popescu: 2017-07-08 00:06:58|delivered_by:sina|sender:sinatron|hello worl
mircea_popescu: this has all the makings of cool!
sina: bam!
phf: now we also are cypherpunks!
sina: as you can see in the gossipc stdout, it's all RSA, stateless whatever style
mircea_popescu: win
sina: anyway, if youre happy with that generally as a "first draft" I am keen to refine incrementally
mircea_popescu: i would say i'm quite happy, actually. as far as the user end is concerned this could work just fine.
mircea_popescu: term coloring scheme and you're home.
sina: but again, disclaimer, am not doing this to infiltrate tmsr with shitlang, as asciilifeform seems concerned, just for my own fun!
mircea_popescu: cutting the "irc client" out of the loop altogether, which is a definite plus.
asciilifeform: aside from the triviality of deriving the privkey remotely..
sina: if you like it too, that makes me happy
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, the back end needs work. the frontend tho, actually passes.
sina: asciilifeform: it is designed to easily rip/replace the RSA and other componenty bits easily
sina: and once all components are happy, can be rewrote in a not shitlang
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also dun see why not irc-driven. protocol fits on index card, and no need to write it again with shoestring and dead squirrel
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because terminal uber alles.
asciilifeform: my irc lives in terminal
asciilifeform: and logs, tabcompletes, etc
asciilifeform: all of this is necessary .
mircea_popescu: so you don't have a proper irc client then. see ? i said irc CLIENT. protocol can stay, i see no prob there
mircea_popescu: !~google mirc
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: mIRC : Internet Relay Chat client: <http://www.mirc.com/>; mIRC - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIRC>; mIRC - Free download and software reviews - CNET Download.com: <http://download.cnet.com/mIRC/3000-2150_4-10001733.html>
asciilifeform: winblows lol
sina: asciilifeform: I do like that idea
sina: here's why
sina: in the gossipthing I made, the transport layer is tied to the encryption layer
sina: although it could be decoupled somewhat
sina: in irctron, you can login to a remote node and keep your privkey operations local
sina: as it currently sits with deedbot, I currently don't, but can, run my irc connection on compartmented box away from gpg
asciilifeform: sina: no remote traffic via irc contemplated at any point in the gossipd threads
phf: i suspect the thinking is that you'll be running a local instance of gossipd, to which you connect over irc, so its main interface is some subset of irc (kind of how bouncers or bitlbee do it)
asciilifeform: only as local loop
asciilifeform: phf has it
sina: that is also good
sina: ok, thanks for validating mircea_popescu, tearing down the shithost
asciilifeform: sina: the reason why i am not particularly hot&bothered, is that your prototype does not contain any of the parts that comprise 99+% of the necessary work of an adult gossipd
sina: yes and it's understood, I'm not trying to make "gossipd for alfs dystopian future" just have some fun for me
asciilifeform: future lol
sina: btw asciilifeform thanks for checking out guix, I thought you might be interested after reading old logs of you complaining re ripping dbus out of emacs
asciilifeform: sina: you might be aware, i run a public box that displays a couplea newly-broken rsa keys ~daily
asciilifeform: all of the, had one thing in common
sina: I am
asciilifeform: i.e. made by folx who 'eh what do i care about alfs dystopian futures' etc
sina: yeah but I am not making this software and saying you sould use it for serious, or even any, thing
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, why didja make it
asciilifeform: vs something else
sina: saw spec on trilema, seemed interesting, why not
sina: same for mpfhf
sina: most "something elses" don't meet my "seemed interesting" criteria
asciilifeform: sina: what are some somethingelses that met it in the past
asciilifeform: ?
sina: asciilifeform: feel free to check out my github :P
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's the fact of the matter : if you had the drop-in rsa ready, he'd drop it in right now.
mircea_popescu: sina go make a drop-in flatfile db replacement, so people can drop it in right now. there's a market, such as people who aren't happy mp-wp pulls in mysql.
sina: it will be done!
mircea_popescu: do it in v so eg ben_vulpes can just merge it in.
mircea_popescu: and by now you're far far beyond "doing things for fun an' to learn" toylulz.
phf: sina: i actually checked, and fwiw guix doesn't let you build emacs without dbus dependency. (in fact none of the odds and ends like svg, xml or alsa can be disabled without patching the package definition file)
sina: phf: bam
mircea_popescu: do we have a plain and rather complete statement, specific to dbus in teh logs ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dropping it into a pyturd gives 0 useful result -- becomes nonconstanttime , potentially
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno why you read a language in his scribblings, it really is just pseudocode.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dbus is a poetteringism
mircea_popescu: you think mpfhf was in php ?
phf: in fact only two ports systems i know that will do it out of the box is gentoo's one and homebrew
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was looking more for a redo of phf 's very fine "xorg" speech.
asciilifeform: aah. dun think we have an all-in-one yet
sina: mircea_popescu: re pseudocode is exactly how I view it
sina: bang it out, see if it sucks or not
mircea_popescu: it's apparent.
sina: I don't want to carve the stone first time
sina: anyhooz, gentlemanz, off for some dumplings
sina: shall return
mircea_popescu: if the dood bangs out tmsr-db within the next coupla weeks, which fwis isn't exactly inconceivable, is anyone interesrted in making mp-wp switch from mysql/etc to it ?
sina: ME
mircea_popescu: aok
asciilifeform doesn't particularly need a db in overflowlang or gcpauselang for anything. but perhaps somebody else does...
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with c ?
asciilifeform: y'mean overflowlang
mircea_popescu: sina write it in ada, that'll really put a bee in his bonnet.
asciilifeform: danglingpointerlang
sina: trolling asciilifeform best done in lang like javascript
mircea_popescu: nah. ada.
asciilifeform: sina: trolling asciilifeform is actually pretty hard
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform trolls don't care about how you feel, alfie. just how you sound.
asciilifeform: i suppose
mircea_popescu: trolling is always a 3rd party oriented performing art. you know, like porn.
mircea_popescu: kin da why it offends the same people.
sina: out forreal!
asciilifeform: re db, imho general-purpose db (i.e. the kind that has query language) is a fundamentally misconceived idea. but we had this thread.
asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
mircea_popescu: i am deliberately toying with this gordian knot.
mircea_popescu: "oh, but a db for each program will be unmaintainable" "good luck maintaining the feature lists of shared item then" etc
asciilifeform: 'general purpose db' is the original 'dwim ai' nonsense, that imho was carried along to date on sheer laziness of programmers
asciilifeform: 'omfg you mean i actually have to understand the mechanics of the problem, and craft an appropriate data structure !? atrocity! gimme sql'
mircea_popescu: even as a prototyping item.
mircea_popescu: "i don;t understant the mechanisms YET, give me a worktable. with clearly known knobsw on it."
asciilifeform: sorta goes upstack, even. ease of prototyping has a cost.
mircea_popescu: all your fg pics include a mysql implementation.
asciilifeform: in that prototypes (e.g. bitcoin...) often end up used in battlefield
mircea_popescu: its' the white shit in the background.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwat
mircea_popescu: yes. that plastic bit with holes.
asciilifeform: idungetit
mircea_popescu: you don't ship fg with it, and so don't ship other things with it either.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you actually want to get it i'll formalize ?
asciilifeform: yesplz
mircea_popescu: a breadboard is, for electronic circuitry, exactly what a general purpose db is for programming.
mircea_popescu: it allows you support to set out all your shit and connect it as you want, and measure and decide how to package it.
mircea_popescu: could be done in your hand, or else in your pants pocket while riding the subway. it'd be harder is all.
mircea_popescu: it is sometimes practiced, and sometimes accepted, to ship circuits back and forth straight on their breadboard. this is entirely up to the people involved and not proper subject of legislation.
mircea_popescu: but yes, it is quite unseemly.
asciilifeform: breadboard aite
asciilifeform: but imho a field where critical battlefield machinery turns out to routinely contain breadboard - has a problem.
mircea_popescu: no argument there. but also -- an aesthetical discussion of breadboards will never result in their banishment from the workshop wtf.
asciilifeform: i learned of the consequences of the sin, in the most painful way, by committing it.
mircea_popescu: try doing any work without one for a laugh.
mircea_popescu also, as young tyke, thought "wtf breadboard, useless shit takes more time to set up than it's worth new". then touched 120V a coupla times and grew wiser.
asciilifeform: i suspect that the culprit is cheap cpu cycles. in msdos age, ~every proggy read/wrote wholly custom datastructures from/to disk
asciilifeform: no 'db lib' for the most part, was inconceivable waste
mircea_popescu: and in even earlier days -- most pessimum.
mircea_popescu: optimizing compiler also inconceivable waste, mel didn't like its data positioning.
asciilifeform: if an optimizing compiler is possible for your machine or lang, one, the other, or likely both, are broken.
mircea_popescu: old meaning of the term, not modern.
asciilifeform: ( see also my old http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46 )
asciilifeform: is mel is the fella from the old poem, who 'we buried him face down, nine-edge first' ?
mircea_popescu: !~google ROAR lgp-30
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: LGP - 30 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGP-30>; LGP - 30 - Ed Thelen's Nike Missile Web Site: <http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/lgp-30.html>; Librascope LGP - 30 - CHM Revolution - Computer History Museum: <http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/early-computer-companies/5/116>
phf: asciilifeform: the story of mel?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the guy with the drum.
asciilifeform: phf: is the only one i know of, yes
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's actually my bad, they called it optimizing assembler back then for some reason.
asciilifeform: recall http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-21#1673190 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-21 17:05 asciilifeform: doing FIVE ( yes, it's five ) machine muls, in there, and 5 machine adds ( instead of motherfucking ZERO ) JUST TO GET THE UPPER WORD of word*word mul, is not.
mircea_popescu: aha?
asciilifeform: compilers for braindamaged archs ( i.e. all extant archs ) are rather 'socialism' flavoured, in that you're stuck forcing 'unprincipled exceptions' (inline asm) if you want to use anything close to the iron's full capacity
mircea_popescu: back in msdos days it was int21 and etc for ... video iron's full capacity.
asciilifeform: y'mean ~not~ int21
asciilifeform: but rather direct writes
mircea_popescu: i guess i do lol
mircea_popescu: point being!
asciilifeform: point being that there is an element of implicit lie, in the concept of the compiler.
mircea_popescu: and in the concept of computer.
asciilifeform: the urbit thing was a cartoon-coloured extreme illustration of this.
mircea_popescu: ha! it was at that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is possible to form a realistic mental model, of computer per se. but far less so of 'optimizing' claptrap.
mircea_popescu: guy is kinda predictable, his previous codebase was a cartoon-colored illustration of the impossibility of autodidacticism
asciilifeform: waitasec, what previous codebase
mircea_popescu: what was it called, the blog thing
asciilifeform: aah ah
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the only mental model of computer per se would be "girlfriend".
asciilifeform assumed 'code base' meant something mechanised
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and it was not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the only accurate , useful model, is 'player piano'
asciilifeform: not gurl wtfomfg
mircea_popescu: ask around. decide(); and void think void etc, the writing's on the wall.
asciilifeform: unless mircea_popescu has a very odd, martian meat comp
asciilifeform: which reminds me... brb
mircea_popescu: it is this thing which talks back to you. === girlfriend, are you kidding me ?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> 2017-07-08 00:06:57|delivered_by:self|sender:urmom|ugachuga << lel @ this message, and it seems to work!
mircea_popescu: so it does!
mircea_popescu: the amusing part not yet picked up (i was expecting alf to jump) is that... it has inband encoding. "self" is a special word!
mircea_popescu: wut do ?
mod6: ah hmm.
phf: pretty sure asciilifeform is actively ignoring the whole initiative, with only periodic pounces. as opposed to his older strategy of annihilating the whole thing upfront. must be getting old
mircea_popescu: you have a theory as to why ?
phf: i think that it's mostly your works. his patterns are better known, there's been damping, etc.
mircea_popescu: wait, what ? i dunno what you just said
phf: well
mircea_popescu: are you saying he switched from trying to annihilate it to being unhappy with it because it has managed to gather some apparent support with me ?
phf: no, it's more like alfs rhetoric approach at some point was encouraged, where's now it seems to be recognized, and often treated with "oh it's just alf doing his thing".
mircea_popescu: hm.
phf: or perhaps now that he has successfully served as the main driving force behind the tenets of tmsr technology and ensured that they are collectively accepted, he doesn't need to reaffirm them as much. but i also have wonder if the tenets have as much of a galvanizing effect now that we mostly had a chance to observe both their positive and negative effects?
phf: *have to wonder
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/517E17312D55D1916D36F9CEF9C8022B875B9FEDEC8FA3F5175C8C4F676AC894 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1762...2773 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.215.78.96 (ssh-rsa key from 58.215.78.96 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN 32)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/517E17312D55D1916D36F9CEF9C8022B875B9FEDEC8FA3F5175C8C4F676AC894 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1379...3483 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.215.78.96 (ssh-rsa key from 58.215.78.96 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN 32)
mod6: in this case, even the sina has said so himself, is a simple prototype. i find prototypes to be typically worth making. often there is something to be learned from them.
mircea_popescu: im not sure which these tenets be
mod6: with btc, even if "prototype" was imho worth using in the battlefield. "you go to war with the army you have..." doesn't mean either that it can't be made better or replaced later.
mircea_popescu: phf for my curiosiuty, list tenets and positive/negative effects ?
phf: that's a tricky request, but the tenets are around shitlangs differentiation, "fits in head", v as a way of releasing code, what it means to own a piece of technology. there's a handful of threads that had definitive conclusions, that i consider tenets (i think the word should be in quotes to indicate that while not true tenets, violating them will require reopening large threads)
mircea_popescu: yeah, whole line sounds a lot like baiting, but not at all my intention.
mircea_popescu: just, work happens when prodded, and systematization is work like any other work.
phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"
mircea_popescu: not even so subtle, but sure.
mircea_popescu: certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any.
phf: right, which is an existing problem
mircea_popescu: and in other news, the logs stay about the same 500 lines they always are, but holy shit it seems somehow they get denser or what the fuck, it's unseemly.
mircea_popescu: feels like headlifting three times the weight these days
mircea_popescu: maybe it's just getting old.
mod6: i think it's highly interesting, but indeed, there's a lot of depth. sometimes takes a while to grok the threads. that's my own personal take. getting old, not for me anyway.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i used to enjoy the luxury of multipass reads through the log. but it's under threat these days
sina: I return, temporarily
mircea_popescu: as opposed to what, death ?
sina: phf: :D
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-05#1679215☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-05 15:39 phf: sina: is that ^ a correct method?
sina: did you make a lispy one go faster?
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680437 << why I used a db: because the spec said use flatfile, I first tried to implement flatfile one and after realising I would need to either shell out to utilities like "touch" and/or "find"/"ls" etc, or implement some of their functionality myself, I decided to import a library that does that stuff not terribly, called sqlite☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 00:38 asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
mircea_popescu: sqlite seems to be the go-to around here.
sina: otherwise, how update functionality like "last seen", or "fetch X messages since last seen"
sina: and now if I want to do it in flatfile, gossipd code becomes gossipd + "sinas shitty db-less attempt"
mircea_popescu: well you were looking for things to try.
mircea_popescu: i don't know it has to be shitty, unless there's some other constraint, like "make it overnight"
sina: imagine flatfile example of "assigning" generated key from "available" => "user" state, or "user" => "bogus" state, that's moving a keyfile from gossipd/keys/available to gossipd/keys/users/foo or similar action, now my program has to either invoke "mv" or write mv-like functionality into my app
mod6: mircea_popescu: re, logs, inline-pr0n helps too :D
mircea_popescu: sina i don't get it ? make file with keys, make file with assignments. why mv ?
sina: ok true, I didn't think of that
mircea_popescu: this idea working as intended then.
mircea_popescu: mod6 word eh. lessee what leggy we can fish out
mod6: yay!
sina: mircea_popescu: but still even in that case I need to "walk" the list of assignments, looking for ^available, so I need to use grep or write a iterating-finder-thingo myself and then something like sed to change the line or write a text-changer-at-a-line myself
mircea_popescu: in today's "bro, does she even lift?!?", http://68.media.tumblr.com/07cb6203aad968e0f035cacb3a1d5fa9/tumblr_mizikdktI41s4ukh7o3_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: sina or just you know, look into how to do btree and have a hash something ?
sina: wat
mod6: lmao @pic
mircea_popescu: sina you can implement your whatever as a binary tree, leverage the directory structure, and simply check if there's a file / write it.
mircea_popescu: this locks into an older discvussion re bitcoin fs, which was iirc still stalled at perf-ing the various available fs thoroughly for massive directory/file usage.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of locks, http://68.media.tumblr.com/47ddf0e0d49eaf4cdafb9e5af8e0287b/tumblr_oo02vdxVUK1rat4opo2_500.gif
sina: how does that related at all to the "make file with keys"
sina: although I don't get that either now that I think about it, how does the "assignments" file know which key is which?
sina: line numbers?
mod6: mircea_popescu: daang.
sina: assignments file format = ??
sina: mircea_popescu: I guess the gist of the question is really, how is implementing my own btree different at all to using the pretty much identical thing in sqlite
mod6: i gotta look at this code again here
mircea_popescu: well, for you in that you get to say you did it (ie, have the experience), and for alf that he's not stuck importing ALL THE REST of sqlite.
sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
mircea_popescu: sina simple example and i don't pretend like this is useful : /assignments/0f0a.txt contains or does not contain "hurrdurr". by checking if it does you know hurrdurr is assigned to 0f0a.
mircea_popescu: sina does sqlite have unicode support ? if it does, then it will necessarily be less lines of code.
sina: always lol
sina: I mean, all data is unicode AFAIK
sina: except binary ofc
mircea_popescu: right. well, here all data is ascii.
mircea_popescu: mod6 there's a part two of our show : http://68.media.tumblr.com/949f80bdc5e21cf0d317e4f5b5a3b369/tumblr_oo02vdxVUK1rat4opo1_500.gif
mod6: nice!
sina: ok going out again, will consider some more, but I do wonder
mircea_popescu: not like you HAVE TO. twas a suggestion.
mod6: sina: sure, think on it for a bit. no rush.
mircea_popescu: and in other real dollies, http://68.media.tumblr.com/a72431bb9683fd3181791b292e410b95/tumblr_oqv0v1DHGW1sd72xuo1_1280.jpg
mod6: looks like was taken on a proper ny roof
mircea_popescu: nah, russian ho. "gizel"
mod6: ah
mod6: im ~starting~ to get the hang of this ada stuff.
mod6: as a way to teach it to myself, i've been poking around with a v impl.
mod6: not sure it'll ever see the light of day tho.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> sina: trolling asciilifeform is actually pretty hard << Then why are the neighborhood's small mammals so successful with their verminating?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680511 << partly it is that i'd like to do a fair share of keeping the snr high, by... ~not having same thread 9000 times~, see if perhaps the l0gz will do their bit and answer ' what does asciilifeform say to X ? ' q for those folx who have it☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:13 phf: pretty sure asciilifeform is actively ignoring the whole initiative, with only periodic pounces. as opposed to his older strategy of annihilating the whole thing upfront. must be getting old
asciilifeform: and partly in that i find the 'prototype' that solves 0 of the difficult problems, simply not interesting. i can write a perlism that pushes shitrsa packets over tcp etc. in half hour. but why.
asciilifeform: ( and iirc i already explained this in agonizingly pedantic detail. but apparently the requisite lines in the l0gz are magically invisible..? or wut )
ben_vulpes: > do not use * to mark line suppression
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680517 << this is quite a bit moar 'mean gurlz' than actually in play, phf. i dun give anything like the suggested amount of fuck. the educable - learn, the rest - will learn by pissing on the electric fence personally; or, when far too late, already having 'fucked the cousin' etc.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:24 phf: no, it's more like alfs rhetoric approach at some point was encouraged, where's now it seems to be recognized, and often treated with "oh it's just alf doing his thing".
ben_vulpes: am i to take from this line in the od manpage that it doesn't actually output faithfully without extra flags?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check it out, you're famous nao, being discussed in absentia.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ikr? i was having tea and saw l0gz and 'wtf'
mircea_popescu: hey, happens to the best of us.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform to pet : 'looksy here, they're meangurlzing'
mircea_popescu: no such thing!
asciilifeform: (term of art!11)
BingoBoingo: Well, alf did recommend that film to rest of republic
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680530 << i actually attempted this , a coupla yrs ago, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:00 phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"
mod6: lel 'meangurlzing'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680532 << at one time we had a fella ( pete_dushenski ? ) embark on a 'major life and times of the l0g' thing. what became of this ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:01 mircea_popescu: certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any.
ben_vulpes: hodang hexdump does this as well
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680538 << there are times when i spend a whole day only reading the l0gz...☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:07 mircea_popescu: mod6 i used to enjoy the luxury of multipass reads through the log. but it's under threat these days
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: hexdump -v -C
asciilifeform: ( switches off the retardation )
mod6: yeah, i try never to get more than 1 day behind. and sometimes, i take long walks through the l0gs on various threads.
asciilifeform: mod6: i was speaking of vintage logs, rather than backlog
mod6: ah, yeah, the "long walk"
mircea_popescu: !!up ave1
deedbot: ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: i'll go ' this one time mircea_popescu and asciilifeform had mega-dispute about planar tilings, where was it... or did i dream it ' and 6 hrs later..
mod6: oh yeah, those are the hardest to track down. i find myself having to search for very specific words and hope i find it.
mod6: sometimes its a tmsr-ism like 'printolade'
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yeah, found the flag at about the same time i discovered the idiocy
ben_vulpes: "flag for disabling wtf, would you like?"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: gotta love these
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you could write an entire mega-essay re subj, they are legion
asciilifeform: ( and again, but WHERE were the others..! )
ben_vulpes: right?
asciilifeform: somewhere, deep in the l0gz.
asciilifeform: iirc it was pete_dushenski who compared to talmud.
asciilifeform: i went and got hold of an actual talmud, to compare.
ben_vulpes: basically unsafe to use unix tools without reading manpages exhaustively, and probably source to boot
mod6: and as far as pete_dushenski or whomevers quest to write a log digest or whatever, it never happened. the foundation briefly considered a role for gathering up trb related parts, but that was set aside in exchange for tb0t
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: talmud likely five hundred years to early of a comparison
asciilifeform: notrly
asciilifeform: shares some of the very same sharp edges
asciilifeform: ( ~wholly unsorted and highly self-referential item )
asciilifeform: mod6: aha, didn't think so
asciilifeform: iirc everyone who offered to do the job, found that it was far 'more than could chew'
asciilifeform: ( or less than his muscle could lift, take your pick )
ben_vulpes: relatedly, i started rereading the old testament on "kindle" this year, have been missing proper talmud for whole sojurn
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there's an ipnoje version etc.
ben_vulpes: epub?
asciilifeform: no, thing with concordance, search, multi-lang thing, etc
asciilifeform: iirc there are ports to various pocket comp
ben_vulpes: i did discover epub-scale sheikh pdfs recently
asciilifeform not dedicated aficionado, ben_vulpes will have to dig for himself
ben_vulpes: mm
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, the history of roman empire was attempted 500x, why should one fellow stop the rest.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: https://www.sefaria.org
ben_vulpes: sikh*
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ( dare i presume that you want the englisch )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tru!!
ben_vulpes: a reasonable daring, my patience for aramaic went the way of my patience for kanji etc
mircea_popescu: mod6 problem with the very specific words is that often enough conversations are carried in wholly metaphorical terms.
ben_vulpes: i have other exciting glyph monstrosities occupying my stack these days like unicode
mircea_popescu: such as, we';re discussing cunts, but oohohohohobviously not rly.
mod6: for sure.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680565 << it stalled at the discovery that 1) performance is abysmal 2) for wholly fundamental reasons ( of shit-poor rewritable data structures forced by 'generic fs' shape ) 3) all extant fs would have to be patched regardless to remove idiot node caps, and may as well write proper db from scratch that is bitcoin-shaped 5) asciilifeform then wrote the latter, in ada, and put on shelf, to pick up a☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:31 mircea_popescu: this locks into an older discvussion re bitcoin fs, which was iirc still stalled at perf-ing the various available fs thoroughly for massive directory/file usage.
asciilifeform: fter rsa
asciilifeform: ( related lullies : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-08#1640488 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-08 17:13 Framedragger: do you recall when you described the storage of nqb?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i still didn't get what i'd call good numbers / a good measurement.
asciilifeform: ^ where powerrangers immediately took what they could find in the l0gz and tried to use, like the savage finds the flashlight
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627811 << mine or the classic fsen ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-15 23:46 asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, 'nqb' reads & parses a full 1MB block, with 2218 tx, and recreates it from fast-form, again to disk, in 0.123 sec. on a 3GHz opteron cum ssd.
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629439 << yet other thread re subj. )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 17:00 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629256 << even reiser is almost certainly waste of time, general-purpose fs is very sharply the opposite of what we want, they are all optimized for mutability (can delete/rename/resize/etc) and fast reads at the expense of slow entity creation, as well as carrying out silent rebalances/defrags/etc.
asciilifeform: reiser is afaik the undisputed champ, if somebody still wants to experiment with classical fs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the classic fsen.
asciilifeform: i'm already on record as having described, in agonizing detail, why it is a monumental waste of time, but if mircea_popescu et al not convinced -- welcome to 'piss on electric fence'
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with measuring the world around. an attempt to explain why this is a waste of time isn't really going to be entertained.
mircea_popescu: it is fundamentally, and irrecoverably, flawed. measurements are the only basis of thought.
mircea_popescu: and they will be redone forever.
asciilifeform: imho best use of measurement, is to measure unknowns. rather than to try to determine, with ruler, how many degrees a triangle's internals add up to.
mircea_popescu: this is not so.
mircea_popescu: there's no "best use of measurement" for exact same reason there's no "wot best practices", or "ideal rng values"
asciilifeform: there is the use of time, of which king and slave alike has finite qty. but i can only suggest to folx, how to use it. if they want to build perpetuum mobile to 'measure whether possible' -- or trisect angle -- let'em
asciilifeform: imho some of the greatest discoveries were precisely of the 'this is a dead end, don't burn your life on this' type.
mircea_popescu: geting hard numbers on file system performance, something everyone involved in data storage for the past 30 years has been vehehehery deliberately hiding, is certainly better use of time than, for instance, attempting to reason with djb jzw & all.
asciilifeform: i suspect that fellating hogs is better use of time than speaking to djb et al
mircea_popescu: be that as it may.
asciilifeform: incidentally i regularly go looking for 'performance numbers' for various , and it is very frustrating, largely from the ~total nonexistence of anything like standardized hardware setup
mircea_popescu: or for that matter anything like actual measurements.
asciilifeform: i.e. when asciilifeform measures his $proggy runs, he is measuring at the same time a possibly unreproducible combo of ssd+ram+cpu+...
asciilifeform: in the days of, e.g., commodore64, with 100 mil people having SAME pcb, within 5% tolerance of crystals -- time measurements were immediately meaningful.
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: FG is manufactured, incidentally, to this tolerance
asciilifeform: but today when asciilifeform goes and , e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659220 , the measurement is only useful standing next to similar from same box☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-19 17:22 asciilifeform: in other news, a 4096-bit A**B takes approx 14 seconds (3GHz) .
mircea_popescu: myeah. particularly "ghz" means jack
asciilifeform: ( for instance, i go and run on a crapple , with slower clock but larger l1, and get 1/7th the interval spent )
asciilifeform: aha!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680575 << ffa is graphical demonstration that this is so☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:35 sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
asciilifeform: and not only 'fewer lines' but 0 of overflowlang
asciilifeform: and 0 pointers
asciilifeform: etc.
asciilifeform: i just counted gpg 1.4.10 : 156,436 loc -- and that ain't counting the autoconf liquishit, or the libs it pulls in
asciilifeform: 'p' currently is ~2.5k of ada. and getting thinner.
asciilifeform: ( when thin enough -- released. even if a little slow. because i want folx to begin to grasp. )
asciilifeform: the sheer gap between what is extant and what is possible - is, i suspect, unfathomable to the uninitiated and the weak of heart.
asciilifeform: ( and i dun even claim a magical handle on all that is possible. for all i know, next d00d will turn my 2.5k into 250. somehow. )
asciilifeform: ( of ~non-idiomaticidiotic~ clean shaven knuthola, say, even. )
mircea_popescu: and in other gateways, http://68.media.tumblr.com/b83ff7af950e69b8ed32a2bb05c1ee0c/tumblr_opsq7iDY4U1v5qo9eo1_1280.jpg
mod6: ziiiip
sina: hullo
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680508 << wat☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:11 mircea_popescu: the amusing part not yet picked up (i was expecting alf to jump) is that... it has inband encoding. "self" is a special word!
mircea_popescu: sina better questions!
sina: mircea_popescu: "self" just signifies the message was published into the local messages list by the local client itself. suggestions are open for other ways to signify same, e.g. if you think the entry should simply be blank
sina: or not recorded
mircea_popescu: and if a guy named "self" sends it ?
mircea_popescu: prolly limit names to alphanum and then use eg "*self" or somesuch is the approach.
sina: fair. names are limited currently to [a-zA-Z0-9_]+
mircea_popescu: this is correct.
sina: https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd/commit/6b223735793022b4d6851721663d5cde3ade9014
sina: looks like this now: 2017-07-08 05:54:50|delivered_by:*local|sender:sina|hello world
mircea_popescu: cool
sina: alright, now back to my /tmp dir to try and prototype a fs based thing
mircea_popescu: *thumbsup*
sina: oh yeah, the other day, inspired by ben_vulpes wotpaste I made this in golang https://github.com/sinner-/tinypaste
sina: quite happy with it
mircea_popescu: is it live anywhere ?
sina: not right this second, hold pls
mircea_popescu: no rush just in general
mircea_popescu: sort of thing can't hurt to have multiples of
sina: mircea_popescu: http://paste.sina.id.au/
mircea_popescu: nice
sina: for now it's set to clean up anything older than a week every week
mircea_popescu: works
sina: mircea_popescu: do you have 5-10m to discuss the filesystem thing re gossipthing
mircea_popescu: sure
sina: cool, appreciated. so I currently have 3 tables: keys, peers, messages. let's start with keys I guess.
sina: so there are 3 "states" for a key, 1. available, 2. bogus, 3. assigned
sina: for the assigned keys, it seems fine to have a directory like key/name_of_peer_assigned.key
sina: with the privkey as the contents of the file
mircea_popescu: alright
sina: but what about bogus and available keys? keys/available/???.key and keys/bogus/???.key, so the two questions would be, 1. what are they named, 2. how to transition states, e.g. from available to assigned
mircea_popescu: sina ideally you use symlinks.
sina: if its a matter of moving a key from keys/available/???.key => keys/assigned/name_of_peer_assigned.key ...or symlinking as you mention
mircea_popescu: /key/0fae.key ; /key/assigned/symlink-0fae.key /key/bogus/symlink etc
sina: then I either need to shell out to mv/ln
mircea_popescu: now, whether this works irl or noit, we do not really know
sina: or implement a chunk of mv/ln in my code
mircea_popescu: alternatively (and what everyone does) is make pagefiles and read those. though...
sina: define pagefiles
mircea_popescu: sina you can just create/edit the symlinks like any other files.
mircea_popescu: sina you know, blkblabla.dat
mircea_popescu: sqlite iirc does single file per db
sina: I dunno about this suggestion. for example if I want to assign an available key, I need to list the keys in /keys, then subtract from that list the list of keys in /keys/assigned and /keys/bogus ?
mircea_popescu: well, if you wish to assign a SPECIFIC key, then you must edit the /keys/assigned/key.symlink reference to point to it.
sina: no, I want to assign any available key
mircea_popescu: if you wish to find out what key you can assign, you gotta enumerate the db, though ideally you keep this in ram rather than in the db
sina: right
mircea_popescu: sina there is no such "any" in computing.
sina: what you said "wish to find out what key you can assign" is what I meant
mircea_popescu: sina to find out which keys aren't assigned you also keep a /keys/available then
mircea_popescu: basically, every sql index = a directory tree
sina: but this introduces potential race condition now?
sina: two assignment attempts might list the same available key
sina: sqlite transaction for example protect against this
mircea_popescu: depending on how the whole scheme is implemented, yes.
mircea_popescu: sina they do not protect against this by design, but by implementation.
sina: agreed and understood, I am just subtly trying to make the point of "making me implement a shittier sqlite"
mircea_popescu: i am not making you! and if it dun seem like something you wanna do best not to do.
mircea_popescu: it's not directly obvious why it'd be shittier though. if nothing else, can just cannibalize sqlite code, iuf you think it's that great.
mircea_popescu: in which process you will have for the first time read and tried to understand it, and likely discovered some things re greatness.
sina: I just doubt I can impl, e.g. transactions as well as sqlite guy
mircea_popescu: this is fine, as a general notion, but what is it based on ?
sina: lack of subject matter expertise
mircea_popescu: right. well, do you wish to acquire some ? ~what the whole discussion reduces to.
sina: good question
mircea_popescu: dun has to be answered tonight anywya
sina: one interesting thing is that I thought there would be some databases implemented as flat files, but I can't seem to find any
mircea_popescu: aha
sina: because I definitely remember in the past thinking thoughts along the lines of "filesystem is a ~btree, rdbms is a ~btree, why am I ~btree on top of ~btree", and reading discussions about this topic on the internet, and feel like I remember *someone* mentioning something about this
sina: also
sina: I dunno much about lisp, but I think lisp handles this better in the sense you write state into the "lisp machine" and can flush that entire state out to disk and read it therefrom as well?
mircea_popescu: ideally.
sina: so in lispland you get this kind of native ability to easily export/import primitive datastructures to disk easily
sina: mircea_popescu: I am guessing tmsr is not fond of things like JSON or YAML
mircea_popescu: !#s "json"
a111: 555 results for "\"json\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22json%22
sina: as I guessed :P
sina: mircea_popescu: still around?
mircea_popescu: yea ?
sina: question: do bogus keys actually need to be stored?
mircea_popescu: well yes, the program needn't be able to distinguish them from keys generally. bogus is an operator designation.
sina: oh. I might use them for bogus data sendage though or something
sina: so I guess I do need to store them
sina: damn. that would've made my life easier :P
mircea_popescu: and if a machine is captured, and so on
sina: elaborate re machine capture?
mircea_popescu: well suppose enemy finds a gossiptron. why should he be able to tell which keys were bogus ?
sina: in the model you proposed he would be able to anyway right, just by seeing which symlinks are in keys/bogus
mircea_popescu: why would you trust that ?
sina: if you're an enemy capable of capturing a gossiptron and knowing of the things, why wouldn't you?
mircea_popescu: because absence of key is dispositive, whereas scribblings on the key is at best indicative.
sina: fair. In any case I think I must retain for the purpose of "chaff" feature
sina: which is currently not implemented anyway
mircea_popescu: so there you go
sina: https://github.com/sinner-/gossipd/commit/54254c22bdeec2355fea22b069bdeee97a57b1ca << no more sqlite
sina: directory looks like dis: http://paste.sina.id.au/1C36509D7782CE51AA687C02E8A970EFBAD6FA1B
sina: wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be
sina: still needs a tad work to make the code a bit easier to read and finish model.delete_peer()
sina: didn't end up using symlinks
sina: rather each privkey has an additional top-of-file line which states either "-available", "-bogus" or the peer name
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680811 << mind ye ad-hoc datastructures.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 10:54 sina: wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be
sina: fair. possible rejiggings on that tomorrow
sina: for nowe, bed
mircea_popescu: meanwhile @shopping, http://68.media.tumblr.com/6f4052f9a62eb621d5369b59e1e7f08d/tumblr_olnkldFYU21s4dxj3o1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: lol looks like a python who tried to eat two golf balls
mircea_popescu: and succeeded.
mircea_popescu: but alright, let's get back to basics then. http://68.media.tumblr.com/e5bd4ea1b58dcd51b5e907a09fd4de7c/tumblr_osjxauzx6I1v2rgrno1_1280.gif
shinohai: Constipated? We can fix that!
mircea_popescu: "looks like a python that's trying to swallow a buncha smaller snakes"
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/07/g20-summit-fiat-leaders-still-meeting-amid-declining-relevance/ << Qntra - G20 Summit: Fiat Leaders Still Meeting Amid Declining Relevance
mircea_popescu: win
BingoBoingo: tyvm
BingoBoingo: “You wanna know what’s more important than throwin away money at a strip club? Credit/ You ever wonder why Jewish people own all the property in America? This how they did it.” << Line by noted White Supremacist Jay-Z
mircea_popescu: wait, he's trying to turn the horde of aging "trynna make it as a pimp" blacks into good consumers with credit cards ?
mircea_popescu: aaaand... nobody calls him out on it ? gangsta what ?
asciilifeform: i thought 'rap' lyrics were officially required to come out of a certified an'sealed shannonizer, like las vegas one armed bandit rng
mircea_popescu: hot topic muzak, now from black people!!1
BingoBoingo: AHA, he is being called out for "feed[ing] into preconceived notions about Jews and alleged Jewish ‘control’ of the banks and finance." << Jews at Anti Defamation league
mircea_popescu: because hjey, THAT is the real issue yes ?
mircea_popescu: good thing jayz is so very "controversial", i think ima go buy his album
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-13#1669512☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-13 15:17 mircea_popescu: and this model ENTIRELY explains all of the "luminaries". werner koch worked the feeder-chumper cycle. stallman worked the feeder-chumper cycle. curtis yarvin worked the etcetera.
mircea_popescu: cycles, everywhere.
mircea_popescu: "the strong take from the weak, and the smart take from the strong. the weak'd better have great cocksucking skills to close teh cycle."
BingoBoingo: Really gotta give the urban youth directions on finding and identifying Jewish neighborhoods
mircea_popescu: tru dat, rachel's been slipping herself roofies in desperation.
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=143
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=8238&pr=1
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2518.59, vol: 6546.82530631 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2494.9, vol: 3183.64189 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2501.9, vol: 13104.35099044 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2573.9818, vol: 5560.59180000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2519.233, vol: 5587.7122669 | Volume-weighted last average: 2519.10413738
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/mom/ << Trilema - Mom ?
BingoBoingo: Win
mircea_popescu: dun dun dun
mircea_popescu: "i don't know, baby... we'll have to ask your father..."
mod6: <+shinohai> Constipated? We can fix that! << lol
mircea_popescu: ftr, it dun fix it, colon takes the day off after you fuck it.
mircea_popescu: but in other teen issues, http://68.media.tumblr.com/ab5bbea07c6980664a38d8f081687c4b/tumblr_o8m5pi5a2C1uw19aqo1_1280.jpg
shinohai: You have my attention.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> "i don't know, baby... we'll have to ask your father..." << lol. cuckdad may want in too!
trinque: ah such logs.
trinque reaches the top, salutes
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680454 << it can be used for this, yes, but because it is a tool for building a taxonomy. many programs reduce to building a catalog of a (mutable) set of objects.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 00:44 mircea_popescu: a breadboard is, for electronic circuitry, exactly what a general purpose db is for programming.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680785 << >> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641401☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 07:21 sina: I dunno much about lisp, but I think lisp handles this better in the sense you write state into the "lisp machine" and can flush that entire state out to disk and read it therefrom as well?
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:26 asciilifeform: re lisp state -- not sure this is doable on unix -- how do you dump and restore textual representation of posix threads ? fd's ?
trinque: and mentioning lisp, CLOS is by my lights, the best taxonomy building tool that exists.
trinque: what it lacks (at least as part of the CLOS standard, afaik) is a standard for how one CLOS program shares objects and methods with another, whether on same box or across the network.
trinque: I'd say folks yes, use sqlite because they did not reason the program out completely before beginning to write code, but they often use postgresql as a messaging platform, RPC, or what have you
trinque: anyhow, curious what the lisp graybeards have to say about CLOS over the wire
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc this is one of the things the symbolics folx had to make a proprietary gadget for, because it is nowhere in the standard
asciilifeform: ( and probably could not be in the standard, such things as, e.g., width of the machine word, were not universal constants )
mircea_popescu: one doesn't follow from the other.
mircea_popescu: there's standard cunt operation without standard cunt width.