tmsr - Log 2018-09-14

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dungetit, what's lower than 'it's a miner^H^H^Hcloud^H^Hpetroladditive^H^Hdentists-don't-want-you-to-know' ?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: speaking of garza's 'hashlets' thing

BingoBoingo: GAW was always cloud where customer is promised they never touch any object

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: always? cuz i definitely recall 'any day nao you will see'em in lolmart shelves'

asciilifeform: started out as quasi-physical totem of some kind

BingoBoingo: These details in their marketing print blurred together for their customers too

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i for one can't think of who exactly lies in bellcurve below folx who will sign up for 'pay now, see wtf it is later'

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: didja remember to take photo ?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: dun have to be right now, can go in the morning. and when you do, also plz retrieve the 2 retired usb stix from dulap, they've been zero'd

asciilifeform: ( interestingly -- wrote all blox without even 1 eggog )

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but if you're feeling energetic, why not go nao.

asciilifeform bbl,meat

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-12#1849960 << agreed. it may need to come after the near-term and still elusive goal of cleaving the essential from the cruft in the portage tree. there is a shocking amount of state in portage strewn about the system, in /etc, in /usr/portage, in /var/db/pkg ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-12 14:18 asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu reminds me , trinque : here's an idea, let's banish the 'root certs' and any systemwide sslism from cuntoo. if user demands it , let him install locally.

trinque: and this is just the broad overview. in /usr/portage/profile there's what, tens of layers of dependency nesting. in some cases the children override the parent; in others they appear to append

trinque has scripts in progress to flatten the profile tree into a single profile, where it can be inspected and therefore judged.

trinque: and it's plainly obvious by now that the kind of autistic mind that produces these tangled trees does so to attempt to exhaust the judging eye

trinque: "if my room is packed with cum socks and mcdonalds bags, dad will be too ashamed to come find me and kick my ass" ☟︎☟︎

trinque: aaand just built a working nano from the ebuild in /cuntoo/portage, having no other ebuild repositories in system, and no barfs from emerge.

trinque: /cuntoo/portage weighs 26M right now, compared to /usr/portage weighing 704M ☟︎

trinque: not only was there /etc/portage/repos.conf to define repositories, but also /usr/share/portage/config/repos.conf, and apparently creating one in /etc does not knock out the defaults in /usr

trinque: rationale behind bothering with the repository system is to let the legacy gentoo ebuild repository coexist with the vtronic repository, in exactly the same way as "overlays" do now with the gentoo repo

trinque: can then pluck ebuilds from their tree as needed, produce a vpatch, and include in the cuntoo repo

trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qJ69u/?raw=true << current output of emerge -v @world . few things yet jacked in the portage profile, which sets/unsets things like that userland_GNU use flag.

trinque: I wager this is because the item in profile that sets IUSE ought to have overridden instead of appended.

trinque: diana_coman: thanks! coming along, squealing in protest though it does.

trinque: but the deps are all lined up there; that's the whole system. when it rebuilds itself, done.

diana_coman: last time I tried to figure out exactly what is what and where re portage I ran out of time to disentangle the mess, so I'll be very happy indeed to not have to go back to that

trinque: I'll be thrilled when I watch emerge build someone's vmerge, and then remove itself as last act.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 05:07 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-12#1849960 << agreed. it may need to come after the near-term and still elusive goal of cleaving the essential from the cruft in the portage tree. there is a shocking amount of state in portage strewn about the system, in /etc, in /usr/portage, in /var/db/pkg

mircea_popescu: the problem with socialists is and remains http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818526 ; they'll always find something "that doesn't exist" to dump into, and in the case of computer systems it generally is state. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 04:04 mircea_popescu: yes. democracy fails to account externalities as a matter of course. see also http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-14#1783773 thread

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 05:15 trinque: "if my room is packed with cum socks and mcdonalds bags, dad will be too ashamed to come find me and kick my ass"

mircea_popescu: diana_coman entirely possible you're the first one to ever put udp through gnat.sockets. ☟︎

diana_coman: as I was writing that I was thinking that an unchecked.conversion for the whole thing might work - provided arrays are indeed stored as one would expect in a continuous space ☟︎

mircea_popescu: anyway, reading through this, i suspect ada threading may turn out to be a pleasure. ☟︎

diana_coman: honestly it *seems* to me that's the case, yes; but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it

diana_coman: re unchecked.conversion - there is still the issue of flipping the bytes though; this needs more thinking ☟︎

mircea_popescu: anywya, great reads this morning! the republic prevails!

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850315 << pretty neat diana_coman ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 11:06 deedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/09/14/smgcomms-implementation-chapter-1/ << Ossasepia - SMG.Comms Implementation - Chapter 1

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850323 << i have a proggy, but it dun seem like i ever published the item, so diana_coman will have to count as 1st ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 12:31 mircea_popescu: diana_coman entirely possible you're the first one to ever put udp through gnat.sockets.

asciilifeform: it was lame

asciilifeform: ( and i didn't get a chance to finish the whole thing, was right when i picked up ffa )

diana_coman: also: I'm open to any corrections to that thing there, including any slamming of the sort "this is horrible, wtf, do it THIS way!!"

asciilifeform: i've a half-written 'g' (if anyone recalls what that was) , used adasockets

asciilifeform: gnatsockets

asciilifeform: i also had a variant that used c imports

diana_coman: I was just thinking I might have missed something crucial there

asciilifeform: diana_coman: did you ever see the 'nqb' item asciilifeform posted in '17 ? had various imho good examples of operations on streams

diana_coman: I recall a link to examples in ada; fwiw I think they are even gone from that link at least; was that "nqb"?

asciilifeform: i'ma have to repost, 1s

asciilifeform: oh nm, it's still alive, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-23#1742497 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-23 16:28 asciilifeform: whaack: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/horse.tar.gz

diana_coman: got it; will re-read (I do think I had a quick look at it at that time but it didn't stick)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i dun see anything obviously ugly in your example, btw

asciilifeform: admittedly asciilifeform just woke up and only gave it 1 look thus far

asciilifeform: and without tea

asciilifeform: https://www.adacore.com/gems/gem-140-bridging-the-endianness-gap << possibly useful item re endianism

diana_coman: I've found that and gave it a first pass but I didn't quite see how to use it for my problem; it's on the list of refs at any rate, so I'll get to re-read it

asciilifeform: diana_coman: currently i am lacking a bigendian iron (or a gnat for such) so never got a chance to truly and properly test endianism conversion (as for ffa, it is endian-insensitive, but this is simple where there is no networking)

diana_coman: asciilifeform, aha; re-reading that thing - I guess the Scalar_Storage_Order looks promising, I'll dig a bit deeper into it

asciilifeform: diana_coman: re streams, you may find the 'buf_streams' item in horse.tar.gz interesting

asciilifeform: ( what it was, was simply a btc block and tx reader, i fed an entire noad's 'dumpblock' chain into it, plus a buncha randomly bitflipped mutilations, behaved correctly )

asciilifeform: i then wrote the mmap thing, with aim to bake the 'reads and stores blox , then O(1) tx retrieval' demo, but never got a chance to glue the two together

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-06#1666647 << subj ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 19:40 asciilifeform: mod6, phf , et al : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/horsecocks.tar.gz << i dun recall posting this before, so here it will live, for nao : unofficial release of mmaptron ☟︎

asciilifeform: this is not directly relevant to diana_coman's application tho

asciilifeform: hmm, loox like i ~did~ glue'em, but the glued model definitely not ready for primetime.

asciilifeform has reached the mircea_popescu level of amnesia where 'hmm did i make this and it is on hdd somewhere or did i only want to' ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624240 << orig thread, re subj, for longterm ref. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 16:57 asciilifeform: btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :

asciilifeform: ^ with entire algo.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850300 << this is pretty neat. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 06:06 trinque: /cuntoo/portage weighs 26M right now, compared to /usr/portage weighing 704M

asciilifeform bbl,tea

lobbesbot: phf: Sent 6 days, 10 hours, and 44 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> lemme know if you want the magic pill recipe + patched flashrom util for c101pa .

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-08#1848612 << was at sea, but i was also keeping up with the logs (much better in flight entertainment!), i'll take the pill, but not sure i'll have the immediate use for it beyond ogling. i'm having a hard time recreating even the max-heathen environment that will simply reproduce the google stack as is ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-08 04:08 asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf lemme know if you want the magic pill recipe + patched flashrom util for c101pa .

asciilifeform: phf: this was on the off chance that you had a working replacement rom image. ( if you don't yet -- thing won't do you much good atm )

asciilifeform: phf: fwiw i do not yet have a working heathen toolchain ( other than what shipped on the box ) either

asciilifeform: the only pc-side tool in the setup is (patched) flashrom

lobbesbot: phf: Sent 33 minutes ago: <lobbes_phone> next time you're in the btcbase/patches boiler room, plox to add http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2018/09/logbot_command_router_python-genesis/ to 'bot' section?

asciilifeform: !Q later tell BingoBoingo http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UJFQW/?raw=true

asciilifeform: phf: saw anyffing interesting on your voyage ?

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850290 << loox good, for nao ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 01:29 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: http://aaronrogier.net/fanfront.jpg and http://aaronrogier.net/fanback.jpg Please gpggram a destination for the sticks

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850328 << it is pretty neat, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446883 ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 12:37 mircea_popescu: anyway, reading through this, i suspect ada threading may turn out to be a pleasure.

a111: Logged on 2016-04-06 15:49 asciilifeform: ada tasks, afaik, is the only sane implementation of parallelism where you ~never~ specify explicit thread

asciilifeform: diana_coman: and incidentally ( as you prolly already discovered ) you can keep the restrictive flags, on the subset of the coad that doesn't use tasking. ( and this applies in general )

asciilifeform: ditto streams

asciilifeform: the only lang feature that gets in the way of this partitioning is 'generics', but iirc diana_coman did not use these anywhere ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( i had'em in the 1st drafts of ffa, then abolished , they interfere with proper compartmentalization )

asciilifeform: diana_coman: incidentally, i was initially quite unsure re the wisdom of using the streams. but they are part of the standard and do appear to work as described. however for your application it isn't even clear to me that you need'em , could simply call out to unix's socket routine and get octet array of fixed length (e.g. 512byte) to work on.

asciilifeform: tcp is very difficult to sanely work with without a stream abstraction, but udp -- trivial.

asciilifeform: so in this model you'd have 2 routines, 1 which takes a port, listens on it, and comes back 'someday' with a 512byte buffer fulla packet and the originator ip ; and another that eats a 512byte buffer and a dest ip, and returns immediately.

asciilifeform: *portnum

asciilifeform: then again if you write 'own gnatsockets' you would have to do what i did for 'horsecocks' mmap system and actually handle all possible unix eggogs (granted there are not many of these for udp)

asciilifeform: ( the appeal of 'own gnatsockets' is similar to that of what i did with mmap : adacore's implementation is quite obese on acct of handling winblowz and other broken os )

asciilifeform: but nao that i think about it, iirc mircea_popescu maintains currently a mswin eulora client, so you might be stuck with gnat's.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850298 << i'll add to this, that i've been to hobo encampments and found them to be... ~substantially~ cleaner and better organized than the 'open sores' atrocities. i suspect that the shitgnomatic level of horror is only found in dilapidated third world psych wards where inmates live in own shit. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 05:15 trinque: "if my room is packed with cum socks and mcdonalds bags, dad will be too ashamed to come find me and kick my ass"

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850327 >> they are, see e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch4_ffacalc#L43 example ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 12:37 diana_coman: as I was writing that I was thinking that an unchecked.conversion for the whole thing might work - provided arrays are indeed stored as one would expect in a continuous space

asciilifeform: ( tho naturally you won't use ada String for arbitrary octetolade. but same principle. )

asciilifeform: ( tho will add, ada Strings actually work with arbitrary garbage, given as they do not use the idiot c 'null termination' paradigm )

asciilifeform: to round out thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850330 << in my orig udp attempt, i dispensed with the traditional 'gotta be in network byte order (tm)' doctrine, in favour of 'if packet doesn't pass muster, THEN flip the endianism and try again 1ce' ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 12:38 diana_coman: re unchecked.conversion - there is still the issue of flipping the bytes though; this needs more thinking

asciilifeform: ( afaik udp doesn't give guarantees of integrity, at least on all systems, so you're stuck with embedding checksum even if you weren't doing crypto authentications )

asciilifeform: ( imho the tradition where 'just about errybody's little endian, but we spend cpu and flip bytes erry time we send something because in 1989 somebody had a pdp' is asinine ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: ty BingoBoingo

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mod6 , ben_vulpes : ordered ! 308.28 orcbux ( 62.18 of'em orc fee, 37.21 -- postage, the rest -- 8 drives and pack of 20 adhesive hedgehogs ) ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: supposedly will arrive by end of next wk ( in practice, whoknows, iirc the last shot was 1 week of postage and 5 of orc customs )

diana_coman: asciilifeform, I'm also still unsure *why* exactly would I need streams; I can see it perhaps on client side if one wants to implement streams on top of udp basically to add checks/re-send or whatever they want to do but that is no concern of the protocol itself

asciilifeform: diana_coman: currently you're only stuck with streams on acct of gnatsockets peculiar design

asciilifeform: sorta like the idjicy of gnat's builtin unix cmdline handling

asciilifeform: it presumes that you want unbounded bags of octets

diana_coman: hm, so basically there might be something to "only tcp on gnat.sockets" after all since they baked this assumption in the...implementation of gnat.sockets themselves??

asciilifeform: they baked this sad into file i/o also ( hence how it shows up in 'horsecocks' )

diana_coman: supporting windows in not a requirement; whoever wants to support it is free to make their own implementation of the protocol anyways

asciilifeform: but for certain things 'stream' is actually the correct abstraction (e.g. the variable-length tx in classical btc block)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: then you may want to wrap unix recv() as i described ( can use my mmap example )

diana_coman: I certainly have to consider that option too if all that gnat.sockets buys me is some bloat + streams ☟︎

asciilifeform: imho there's no particular shame in wrapping an os call that doesn't have possibility of overflows

asciilifeform: ( you let it emit precisely e.g. 512byte into a preallocated buffer that never moves ; the ip it came from, into a 32bit , and that's it )

asciilifeform: ditto for send()

asciilifeform: it's how i did the cmdline thing ( earlier linked )

asciilifeform: nao, you'll prolly want to queue the incomings, but imho thats outside the scope of this thread

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: re: cutting down on stale time at customs http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/S3auq/?raw=true

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: got it, loox same as last time.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: keep in mind that udp packets can get arbitrarily reordered in flight. ☟︎

asciilifeform: and sometimes lost entirely. but you prolly knew this.

asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu

asciilifeform: and , lol, pdp, pde...

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 13:38 asciilifeform has reached the mircea_popescu level of amnesia where 'hmm did i make this and it is on hdd somewhere or did i only want to'

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how did erdos put it, 'first you forget to unzip after piss, then to unzip ~before~, and only ~then~ your own theorems'

asciilifeform: *zip after

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 16:30 asciilifeform: ( imho the tradition where 'just about errybody's little endian, but we spend cpu and flip bytes erry time we send something because in 1989 somebody had a pdp' is asinine )

mircea_popescu: iirc we even had a discussion re standardizing a byte order ; though from the fact that i don't recall the results i take it i got shown broken cats. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the beauty is that there's no actual need to standardize one.

asciilifeform: ( given as you never operate on anyffing that came down the wire without passing checksum )

asciilifeform: and btw for so long as one either a) refrains from bytewise addressing, period or b) addresses bytes of a word via b0 := W and 0xFF, b1 := shr(W, 8) and 0xFF, b2 := shr(W, 16) and 0xFF , ... , etc -- you dun create endianism problem.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch11_tuning_and_api/tree/ffa/libffa/fz_io.adb#L59 << example of endian-insensitive routine.

asciilifeform: observe that 'address bytes only via word slides' worx even if you shat on one endianism and ate on other.

asciilifeform: ( why? i'ma leave as exercise for reader ! )

asciilifeform: this being said, still gotta come up with bigendian box to test with at some point ( iirc trinque had one somewhere, but afaik no gnat for it yet )

phf: asciilifeform: i have a bigendian box and i also tested at least one call for bigendian test on it. i think it was diana_coman's keccak though ☟︎

asciilifeform: phf: which gnat didja use

asciilifeform: ( imho what we need is the canonical ave1 gnat, on bigendian )

asciilifeform: but since phf has a bigendian gnat, could theoretically build ave1's

asciilifeform: ( good chance to test just how portable is the latter )

asciilifeform: at some point i'd like to get a bigendian box of some description into pizarro , for such work

phf: theoretically, i think it was whatever gnat came with openbsd packages, since that was easiest thing to spin up on the machine in question.

asciilifeform: ( if one can be found that fits 'in pocket' )

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 18:09 phf: asciilifeform: i have a bigendian box and i also tested at least one call for bigendian test on it. i think it was diana_coman's keccak though

diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850448 -> yes, unreliable but that's not the concern at this level ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 16:55 asciilifeform: diana_coman: keep in mind that udp packets can get arbitrarily reordered in flight.

diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850460 -> sounds good; glad I published this stuff now rather than later! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 17:09 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850418 << yes, none of that.

asciilifeform: wb danielpbarron

asciilifeform: diana_coman: the simplest way i thought of to finesse the reordering thing is simply to run synchronously ( i.e. at no point does sender send a new packet unless old one replied; if there's no reply, sender retries a certain # of times, and if still silence, declares the connection broken )

asciilifeform: ty BingoBoingo !

asciilifeform: diana_coman: if one receives an old (i.e. not currently expected ) packet ( e.g. straggler from a previous round ) it gets rejected in the same way as any other rubbish.

asciilifeform: this way you also dun have to concern with 'packet congestion', a perennial plague of tcpdom

asciilifeform: the only adjustable knob becomes , how long to wait for an expected reply before pronouncing the connection 'dead', and that's it

asciilifeform: ( a reply here, in turn, is not the idjit tcp 'ack', but a packet containing hash(currentsecretsalt + prevpacket) + cipherola-to-current-key , i.e. can only have been generated by the box on the other end, and can only be authenticated by yours

asciilifeform: ideally these will not be distinguishable by any third party from any other type of packet.

asciilifeform: ( anybody lacking the secretsalt and currentkey, sees simply 512byte of rng )

asciilifeform: the salt, goes in the cipherola payload, so gets switched out in erry round. ( given as you have a trng, this is not an exorbitant entropy expense )

asciilifeform: anyway there is prolly >1 sane way to do this.

diana_coman: at any rate, from server's point of view, it doesn't care - it will answer to legitimate messages and that is that; it's more of a client concern and up to them how they handle that i.e. indeed pretty much how long they wait/when do they consider server unreachable and what they do

asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform forgot that you already had the protocol. then you do not need any of this, indeed.

asciilifeform: ( item was copied from asciilifeform's older and not specifically related notes re 'g' , wanted to put in l0gz. )

asciilifeform: diana_coman: found it, http://ossasepia.com/2018/04/17/rfc-euloras-communication-protocol-eucomms/ , aite ☟︎

asciilifeform: i'ma stfu at this point, as i promised to mircea_popescu not to interfere in euloric matters. will answer q strictly re gnatology, if diana_coman runs into any puzzlers.

asciilifeform: salam Mocky

asciilifeform: Mocky: how's your studies going ?

Mocky: i already like that there's no capitalization. i need to find a native speaker

asciilifeform: Mocky: very difficult ( at least i found ) to grasp the phonology without a live speaker.

BingoBoingo: Mocky: What you need is a live speaker that is also interesting to the eyes

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's algo, aha

asciilifeform doesn't doubt that it worx

BingoBoingo: Brian in the head dun want to work to decode shit the boys say.

BingoBoingo: But if the speaker's got tits, Brian in the head is willing to work a bit.

Mocky: seems like there are a lot of dialects from gulf to african ☟︎

BingoBoingo: Brian in the head wants to end conversations with the boys quickly and efficiently: "Como estás?" "Tu madre me chupas bien" ☟︎

asciilifeform: Mocky: asciilifeform at one time worked for a d00d who spoke the palestinian dialect. he griped that on trips to e.g. riyard he was scoffed at 'like if spoke alabama english in nyc'

asciilifeform: *riyadh

asciilifeform: ( i suspect tho, that this kind of thing is curable with time. e.g. asciilifeform was taught brit eng, not ameri-, but i doubt that anybody can tell this today )

Mocky: census data claims that the zipcode where I live has the highest concentration of arabs in the state, which if you do the math is ~700

BingoBoingo: You could also see if there's some camho's that want a stable appointment. iirc that's how shinohai learned spanish

BingoBoingo: I think the dude chatted with the girl, kept appointments, and then imported her if I remember right

mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vFrTE/?raw=true << oh yeah, you made horsecocks a long while ago alf

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 21:36 Mocky: slow start, but i think i'm going to like arabic

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 21:45 Mocky: seems like there are a lot of dialects from gulf to african

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850521 << me chupa. chupas is 1st singular not 3rd singular. (plural would be chupan) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 21:46 BingoBoingo: Brian in the head wants to end conversations with the boys quickly and efficiently: "Como estás?" "Tu madre me chupas bien"

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 21:51 Mocky: need to make some friends in the local halal markets

Mocky: not all that much of a hurricane here but powers been out at least 2 dozen times for about a minute each.