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verisimilitude: Alright, I got that working now.
asciilifeform: willkommen verisimilitude
verisimilitude: My current PGP setup is horrible, as you can guess.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if/when you want to swap the key, ask (politely) trinque , it's a manual process
verisimilitude: I'll keep that in mind.
asciilifeform: for nao, simply avoid losing it.
asciilifeform: seems like verisimilitude has visited previously, but nao is getting into adaism via ffa ( http://logs.bvulpes.com/asciilifeform?d=2019-2-5#458157 )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: incidentally diana_coman ( http://ossasepia.com/ ) has quite large set of published ada ( & articles re same ), i highly recommend to read.
verisimilitude: I like the idea of writing software that handles all failure modes correctly, as awful as modern systems make doing so.
verisimilitude: Common Lisp is nice, but I want to handle memory exhaustion well and also avoid using megabytes for programs that shouldn't need that much.
verisimilitude: I'll do so, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you will find that most of the win from adaism is in the approach of thought that it encourages, rather than any mechanical aspect of the lang per se.
asciilifeform: http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/ << also recc'd read.
verisimilitude: There's the saying one shouldn't learn a language that doesn't change the way one thinks; I figured if I would learn at least one language with keyword-based syntax, strong static typing, a lack of advanced metaprogramming, among other qualities, that I should learn Ada.
verisimilitude: It's a nice language, so far, but I've yet to even finish learning all of it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are other langs with strong typing, but afaik ada is the only 1 where a) with actual standard b) doesn't drag along a gargantuan runtime that won't sit down in small single-chip boxes etc
asciilifeform: see Mocky's review in particular, he actually summarized the whole path that led to the thing
verisimilitude: As a Lisp programmer, what drew you to Ada, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in 2016 i found that i gotta write a safety-critical arithmetic system (nao known as ffa) and found that i cannot in good conscience do it in anyffin but ada.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in particular , any system with gc is ruled out right off the bat, as you cannot plug timing sidechannel leak if you got gc in the mix.
asciilifeform: the discussion is also summarized in ch1, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913 .
asciilifeform: i explored various alts (e.g. standard-ml sans gc) but found that if the lang produces a binary that cannot be cleanly disasmed and shown to functionally correspond with the source , also cannot in good conscience use such a thing.
asciilifeform: eventually cracked open some bookz and determined, over course of a year+, a subset of ada which roughly corresponds to 'c without the pointeristic retardation', and used this.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you will find that the ada used by asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al, is quite distinct flavour from what you see in barnes & in various corners of the net where published ada proggies (not so many) are found
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: for instance, i do not use the secondary stack, or any mechanisms which demand it; or any form of heaps ; or classes; etc
asciilifeform: this means no array concatenation, for instance; or any string ops that do not sit down in apriori known space.
asciilifeform: and no 'access variable', except when required to bake os glue
asciilifeform: there is not presently a paper book that will teach you ~this~ lang, if you're ready to learn it you can do so from asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al. published works.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=udp << example of os glue.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/adalisp_genesis << spyked's small lisp in ada.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch16/ffa_calc__adb.htm << ffa as of ch. 16.
asciilifeform: there is plenty of other material in the log, to study from.
verisimilitude: Alright; I'll keep that in mind when I am finally able to study your FFA.
asciilifeform: plenty of ongoing work, too. diana_coman for instance is determining a safely usable subset of ada tasking system.
asciilifeform: ave1 is baking a gnat that can build for 'bare irons'.
asciilifeform: ( and already produced a self-contained, glibc-free retargetable gnat, works a++ for e.g. arm64 )
verisimilitude: The Ada program I have planned is in a similar way unconcerned with some of the more advanced features, because much of it is very concrete by now; it shouldn't even need to allocate memory until I have an undo and redo system in it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: imho it is a quite fine lang for building systems where 'surprises' are utterly impermissible. but it does take work.
asciilifeform: most folx find that it takes them a coupla days to even get 'hello world' to ~compile~.
verisimilitude: I'll get to have extra fun, because the system with my editor is different from the system with the GNAT.
asciilifeform: this is not in general a problem, e.g. ave1's gnat works just fine as cross-compiler.
verisimilitude: I'm currently using GuixSD and GNAT isn't available at all, is what I mean.
asciilifeform: i intend to port ffa to msdos, for instance, and don't expect that gnat will be building it ~on~ dos box.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: try building ave1's , unless your iron is quite exotic you will probably find that you can build a cross-gnat that outputs bins for it.
asciilifeform: incidentally if you're on a x86/x64 box, ave1's gnat will run right as-is, it is built statically and outputs strictly static bins.
asciilifeform: so in principle it doesn't particularly matter what flavour of linux you're on (unless want to ~rebuild~ it, then will take a bit of sweat)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: tell us a bit re what you're building ?
verisimilitude: When I did look into building GNAT from source, I was told in the documentation I'd already need a working GNAT; does ave1's avoid this? Then again, I suppose I could just use the GNAT I alread have on this other machine for that, if it became too inconvenient to use both.
verisimilitude: It's that tool I showed you earlier, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: sadly ~all~ gnats require a working , existing gnat, to build
asciilifeform: this is consequence of the fact that gnat is written in ada.
asciilifeform: theoretically it may be possible to build it with a diff adatron, but gnat is the only openly published one
asciilifeform: and therefore the only one we presently use.
verisimilitude: I'll be using Ada to build the practical, robust, simpler, and easy-to-distribute implementation of my machine code development tool, perhaps ironically enough.
trinque: asciilifeform: the lack of a binary-reproducible gcc really puckers when considering how to write an ebuild for ave1's gcc
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc finding & killing whatever piece in gcc outputs variant turd and makes bins unreproducible is on ave1's conveyor
trinque: considering a process that involves "bolt your hand-built gcc here" and then it rebuilds
trinque: asciilifeform: yep, I eagerly await it
asciilifeform: right, this is a must-have
asciilifeform: the ultimate win would be to get something other than gnat ( say, an adatron implemented in cl... ) that can build something resembling a working gnat. but sadly i suspect this is yrs away. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( as it is, we have an active unresolved 'thompsonism' in the mix )
asciilifeform: trinque: possibly at some pt i'ma start to pillage the bolix adatron, for this .
asciilifeform: ( whether this wins over starting from empty, remains to be seen )
asciilifeform: trinque: seems to me that for nao, a working binary build of ave1-gnat gotta be included in standard cuntoo, same as working kernel etc
asciilifeform: ( it does in fact build own self , once built, so can relight the fire indefinitely )
trinque: yep, already need working vtools to run the bootstrapper, so it's not as if there isn't a list of requirements for build env
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: trinque: fwiw i routinely disasm what my gnat shits forth, and haven't yet found any 'surprises', so if ye olde gnat is indeed thompsonistic, it is quite subtle , rather than hammer-in-yer-face 'here's a MB of ??? that phones home to mars'
asciilifeform: ( if yer using a heathen gnat, and a gcc5+istic one, it will output the familiar gcc5isms; but we aint using one )
asciilifeform: i'd still like to ~categorically~ abolish thompsonism at some pt tho.
trinque: indeed
asciilifeform described, in the past, the general shape of the recipe for this -- you write e.g. small lisp in coupla kb of asm, and large 1 on that, and an adatron on the latter... etc ☟︎
asciilifeform: 'ladder'.
verisimilitude: That's exactly the approach I've been wanting to bring about, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: and ideally on iron that we bake, rather than x86.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ever fpgaize your experimental archs ?
verisimilitude: I've not.
asciilifeform: !#s ice40
a111: 105 results for "ice40", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ice40
asciilifeform: ^ starting pt.
verisimilitude: It's nice to even imagine having something that simply is and doesn't require building at all.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ideally would have this for entire stack, transistor & up.
asciilifeform: but first must 'clean kitchen' so it even makes sense to discuss such thing.
verisimilitude: Sure; even though it's only a thought I've made little progress towards at the moment, care for a light description of how I'd do it for a Common Lisp?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you may find interesting to study the 1 example where someone actually ~did~ it for common lisp
asciilifeform: !#s bolix
a111: 256 results for "bolix", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bolix
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=24 << ongoing archaeological dig.
asciilifeform: 1980s usa; they built machine (and using vertical integration of own tooling, for not only os dev but pcb & ic cad etc) precisely for this.
asciilifeform: entirely extinct, casualty of politics and jawdroppingly-inept management; but item to some extent is still available as a fossilized specimen for archaeology.
asciilifeform: much of the complexity in the bolix system is, in light of modern tech, unnecessary, it was muchly constrained by the limitations of the period tech
asciilifeform: (in particular , the cost of storage)
asciilifeform: the basic approach is not only sound, however, but the only ~possible~ sound approach -- you bake a cpu that 'understands types', as discussed in e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46 and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 , and go up from there.
verisimilitude: Unfortunately for me, I don't own a Lisp Machine.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 80% of what there is to be learned from the thing, can be learned without access to working unit
asciilifeform: for instance, the vendor docs are widely mirrored, e.g. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/
asciilifeform: on top of this, there's a coupla kilometer of thread in the #t logs re what made the thing interesting.
verisimilitude: I've had or seen a number of discussions concerning such high-level machines with C programmers and whatnot. It's comedic. A C programmer will be the first to prove how type-checking in hardware and other things most assuredly result in some minute loss of efficiency or power or this or that and so is bad, but then turn around and discuss how brilliant the zero-terminated string is and how it's not that inefficient.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: see also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-110.0-125.164 , http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-79.0-85.510 .
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-june-july-and-august-1715-account-of-books-ii/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of June, July and August, 1715. - Account of Books - II. ☟︎
asciilifeform: 'devout' c programmer is moar or less synonymous with 'brain damage'. these are the people who think 'typed words are expensive' but think nothing of billion+ transistor in current pentium for tlb cache (so winblows can run 5% faster) .
asciilifeform: or, say , the spectacular idiocy of 'branch prediction', currently racking up cost comparable to chernobyl
asciilifeform: ( and with no sign of the inteltards 'waking up' to abandon it )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the zero-terminated string more or less single-handedly created the 'comp security' pseudo-industry
asciilifeform: and naturally the idiot camp splits into the 'useful idiots', who are physiologically incapable of having a clue, and the purposefully-mendacious charlatans, who know exactly where 'exploitable' comes from and ~like~.
asciilifeform: fact is, even long before lispm, on the old cdc mainframes, buffer overflow was impossible.
asciilifeform: folx knew how to do this in ~1960s~.
asciilifeform: it was 'forgotten' for what, near as i can tell, consists ~100% of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-307.0-313.492 reason.
verisimilitude: Let's seque to a related topic: What do you think of the Suckless crowd, asciilifeform? I read their mailing list and it's interesting to see how everything UNIX already provides is good and natural and how anything that violates the sacred tenants whatsoever is evil and bloat. ☟︎
asciilifeform: !#s catv
a111: 13 results for "catv", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=catv
asciilifeform: !#s suckless
a111: 54 results for "suckless", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=suckless
asciilifeform: !#s cat-v
a111: 52 results for "cat-v", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=cat-v
asciilifeform: ^ there we go
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/ << summary of mircea_popescu's expedition to cat-v planet.
asciilifeform: ( at one time, they had a fella with a working brain involved, then he vanished, and what remained grew over with fungus. )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are other 'old unix' cargo cults in the historic record, also; all are quite similar to cat-v , near as i can tell.
verisimilitude: I'll give credit to st, which is a decent terminal emulator, but I'm not impressed with Suckless in general. They're recently combating a bug with some X font nonsense caused by stupid Unicode glyphs; their solution is to stop using the X font nonsense entirely, which will apparently cause its own issues.
asciilifeform: 'stop using' is generally the correct solution to all sortsa problem. trick is that you gotta 1) ~actually stop~ 2) not immediately replace the excised idjicy with a new one
asciilifeform: and 3) not create a vacuum that gets immediately filled by similar or even dumber
asciilifeform: outside of unix planet, typical example of type 3 failure is r5rs scheme (which is ~impossible to write nontrivial program in without reintroducing good % of what makes it seem 'light' vs commonlisp )
asciilifeform: typical 'type 2' failure is, e.g., 'wayland'
asciilifeform: typical 'type 1' fail is the various 'safety' bolt-ons to c/cpp, where yes you can use 'smart pointer' kludge but old barbaric 'dumb' is still permitted (and if you want nontrivial proggy, ~mandatory)
asciilifeform: otherwise you , yes, 'quit drinking' but started instead heroin.
verisimilitude: I've long thought it's reasonable to exert great effort to make a system perfect, where possible; it's the ideal, but maybe not practical. Perhaps the more interesting question is when to stop when you exert so much effort, but have something that can never be made perfect, by design.
verisimilitude: That's what all of these C ``security'' features are.
verisimilitude: It shows no sign of stopping, though.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: field is not at the 'let's discover immortality' stage; but at the 'start fucking washing hands and not drilling well right next to latrine' stage.
asciilifeform: and 'perfect' is red herring
asciilifeform: rather, you want first a :
asciilifeform: !#s fits-in-head
a111: 74 results for "fits-in-head", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fits-in-head
verisimilitude: We all have different ideas of perfection; you could just have it include this.
asciilifeform: if system does not 'fit in head', it does not even make sense to ~pose the question~ re whether it is bug-free.
verisimilitude: Sure; my system I have in mind to make as perfect as I can certainly fits in a normal-sized head, or should.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: see, for instance, thread http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876186 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 02:43 asciilifeform: if you need a 'proof system' to prove $assertion, you have NOT proven it. not to me.
asciilifeform: re what means 'fit in head'.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 1st step is to actually impose on yerself the constraint, 'what i am writing ~is to fit in my head~. then can proceed to help other folx fit into ~theirs~.
asciilifeform: but if author failed to consciously commit to this constraint, in general the resulting work will ~never~ fit-in-head.
verisimilitude: That's reasonable; I've done that much.
asciilifeform: he will use 'libraries' and 'legacy' crapola and autoconf and etc.
asciilifeform: ffa in particular is intended as , among other things, a didactic demonstration of what means 'fits-in-head'.
asciilifeform: a student who reads & understood the thing, oughta be able to 'compile' with bare hands, using nothing but hex editor, for any iron he is given.
asciilifeform: and explain why every single byte he wrote, needs to be where it is.
asciilifeform: because he understands the arithmetic.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: as a concrete example : you will find that ffa uses an unmoving hinge for karatsuba multiplication. consequently all numbers are required to occupy a space that is a power-of-two bits wide. but from this you get a 3-4x simpler mechanism.
asciilifeform: this is merely 1 example of 'this program MUST fit-in-head, above all else.'
mircea_popescu: holy batlog.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was massaging a n00b, tends to take space.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude meet mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu shall actually write that report, get to log in a minute.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: d00d lurked for yrs, i dun think he will suffer from waiting a min.
asciilifeform shall bbl, has meat to attend to
mircea_popescu: meanwhile some serious fucking breakage occured over here wtf.
verisimilitude: Hello, mircea_popescu, although we've met before.
verisimilitude: Well, as much as one can on IRC over a short time, anyway.
verisimilitude: I'm not certain just reading loper-os.org over a few years counts as lurking, but alright.
mircea_popescu: suppose you move over to #asciilifeform then ? because EXACTLY as the topic says, if you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he lives there orig, seemed ready to be introduced to other folx, as adaist. i expect will mostly lurk for the foreseeable fyootur.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other lulz, "Medical uses Varenicline is used for smoking cessation. A meta-analysis found that less than 20% of people treated with varenicline remain abstinent from smoking at one year."
asciilifeform: oughta become apparent soon enuff, whether fella's hands grow from right organ.
mircea_popescu: for the same money could treat them with cocaine.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol is there a pill for 'abstinent' from nail-biting also
mircea_popescu: funny thing is, 20% "success rate" drug is FDA approved, "only effective treatment"
asciilifeform: iirc freud prescribed cocaine 'against errything', and... worked, after a fashion
mircea_popescu: this fashion lol.
mircea_popescu: anyway, cocaine much better p. universalis than say radithor.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892264 << looks like spyked is going to take care of it (though, I dun mind rsyncing it as well) >> http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/082-tmsr-schedule-i.html#selection-201.0-213.84 ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: incidentally, either spyked or lobbes what do you need to make a complete gutenberg.org copy ? it IS going away, for one thing the initiator guy died and for the other thing, with their world-famous http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627828 there's no way they'll stay online all that long.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891494 << as of now, no. I would like to see this built, but I have other items to get to first (http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/01/hopper-update-january-2019/) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 03:49 mats: i wonder if lobbes has a portal where i can feed, say, 2k urls for archival?
lobbes is a day or so behind on logs, goes to continue catching up
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: bonus re varenicline, вареник ~= dumpling
asciilifeform: wonder if the marketwizards knew.
asciilifeform: !#s dip them
a111: 16 results for "dip them", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dip%20them
mircea_popescu: who even knows lol.
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/no-such-labs-snsa-january-2019-statement/ << Trilema -- No Such lAbs (S.NSA), January 2019 Statement
asciilifeform: neat, compact.
mircea_popescu: *thumbsup*
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892493 >> http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-21#886386 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:58 asciilifeform: hm where was that mircea_popescu piece re the magick furniture..
a111: Logged on 2014-10-21 19:27 mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/inchipuiti-va/ << this is incidentally great reading on the topic, albeit in languages.
BingoBoingo: !Xbuy 610mn 82 2k Wired Filthy Fiats (WU esta bien)
auctionbot: Buy order # 1037 created by BingoBoingo: 2k Wired Filthy Fiats (WU esta bien) Opening: 610mn ecu Ending: 2019-02-08 02:11:49.889189 UTC (81 hours)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was the one ! ty
mircea_popescu: mp
mircea_popescu: !!down verisimilitude
mircea_popescu: srsly, circumventing voice model ?
mircea_popescu: next clever dork gets the ban.
verisimilitude: What?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i sent him to reg w/ deedbot an' try voicing, deliberately, d00d spoke at my explicit invitation.
mircea_popescu: why's he voice himself on a different nick then ?
mircea_popescu: anyways.
verisimilitude: If you're referring to my earlier disconnect, that was an accident.
verisimilitude: I'm looking through more of these Ada links you provided earlier, asciilifeform; do you not use Ada 2012?
mircea_popescu: !!rate verisimilitude -1 children, seen and not heard. ☟︎
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4ZZTh/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform Would you do me a favour and drill into the randos some basics of etiquette before inviting them over / rating them ?
mircea_popescu: There's really no need for pompous assholes vomiting their self importance all over the log. Dude hasn't read at the very least the basics, can't ~possibly~ be fucking welcome here, let him go to reddit or whatever an' be happy there.
asciilifeform: 'where they cut off yer lips when they don't like yer smile!'(tm)(r)(disney)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i gotta admit i'm baffled, d00d asked re whether i used ada2012, that's breach of etiquette ?
asciilifeform: maybe coupla thou noobs with working hands alive; i catch 1 in the wild, and mircea_popescu uses for target practice, i dunget.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I must admit I fail to see *what* did the guy actually contribute; moreover he asked as far as I can see signalling questions, nothing more; granted, they were related to Ada but that's about the only positive I can find in the whole log I had to go through; perhaps it's simply too early for him to be here? maybe first have something done and only then come and show it? ☟︎
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it's a teachable n00b, as suggested by his www. similar to e.g. bvt .
asciilifeform: i dun recall having myself walked in with a mega-contribution on day1 either
diana_coman: for one thing it's not *that* year anymore, perhaps that's the missing bit there
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i.e. we have all the hands we'll ever want ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no, how do you jump to that?
diana_coman: there is both need and space for more hands; but their training is to happen in the castles-channels, not directly in #trilema; that's my current understanding at least
asciilifeform: i'ma wait till mircea_popescu speaks for himself and clarifies, but that seems to be his position
asciilifeform: also will ask mircea_popescu to expand re when, exactly, one oughta invite folx from castle. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( once they have magnum opus and not prior ? )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, for my curiosity: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892640 -> how is this ANY different from all the other "hey guise, I'ma signal nao" ; by now the "what do you think of X" is almost a signal in itself ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 01:40 verisimilitude: Let's seque to a related topic: What do you think of the Suckless crowd, asciilifeform? I read their mailing list and it's interesting to see how everything UNIX already provides is good and natural and how anything that violates the sacred tenants whatsoever is evil and bloat.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: so apparently he hadn't read all 7 yrs of log. tho mircea_popescu did not say that this was why got the boot.
diana_coman: fwiw my current (even recently updated!) rule for "when to invite" is ~ "when they are either asking intelligent questions in side-chan already OR have made something useful OR have a concrete, interesting proposition explored first in side-chan" ☟︎
diana_coman: not suggesting there might not be other cases or anything but so far that's what I see
diana_coman: asciilifeform, mno; quite sure we already had this thread already though so I'll let it rest
diana_coman: and at any rate if it needs stating: I'm talking for myself here, not for mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: eh if mircea_popescu says 'you aint ready to graduate kindergarten' i aint about to dispute an' 'no, let's graduate'im to 1st grade'. was curious re the logic, is all.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's kindergarten currently is permissive (so long as folx are reasonably low-traffic) on acct of not being particularly packed.
diana_coman: but that's the point: side-channels are permissive, #trilema is not; and on the sharp end of it, coming in too early can result in negrate ☟︎
asciilifeform: i dun have a dispute re the principle, it's The Right Thing.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: posssibly i oughtn't to graduate'em till they solve all the ffa homeworks.
asciilifeform: ( in all srsness )
diana_coman: that sounds not bad at all really
asciilifeform: can't see how could go wrong with that.
asciilifeform: the puzzlers aint actually that painful imho.
asciilifeform: re ada2012, that was actually a good q, and i'll answer it for the log : ffa in fact uses preconditions, a 2012 knob.
asciilifeform: ( theoretically will build on a 2005 or prior adatron, if they are removed, if one must. )
asciilifeform: truly vintage (ada-83) won't eat ffa, there is use of 'in out' parameters.
asciilifeform: this can be worked around, but would add gnarl, and i won't touch it unless someone gives a compelling argument re why oughta build on a -83.
asciilifeform: -83 won't build diana_coman's proggy either, there was no tasks annex in -83.
diana_coman: yes, I need Ada 2012
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i didn't end up on 2012 blindly, actually walked the feature ladder and consciously picked. ☟︎
diana_coman: well, I really started with 2005 but then I had to upgrade, hence my "I need". It's not blindly,no.
asciilifeform: wasn't implying that diana_coman picked with dartboard, lolno.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i orig had mine set to '05 also.
asciilifeform: re preconditions : theoretically they allow for certain optimizations ( mythical 'sufficiently smart compiler' could infer that various range checks cannot be violated if precondition holds ) but afaik our gnat doesn't do this, and i'm not certain that i'd like it if it did
asciilifeform: they do make elementary mistakes in calling coad 100x moar obvious tho, and therefore are a win imho.
asciilifeform: i.e. they're the 'suspenders' in a 'belt and suspenders' tandem.
asciilifeform: on that subj, attentive ffa reader will notice in certain places asciilifeform marked in comment 'cosmic ray resistance' . this indicates mechanisms where there are two or more separate pieces that ensure a correct computation (or death with alarm bells) if somehow bit flips , when this is inexpensive. ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( typically this is where an arithmetic has been proven not to overflow, the overflow is connected to a Word of 'NoCarry' type, i.e. whose range is 0 .. 0 . )
asciilifeform: in the 'battlefield' release, all exceptions will be caught by handler that prints 'iron is damaged, replace immediately'
asciilifeform: ( this is ~already~ true, simply not yet connected to the bell. )
asciilifeform: on hardwarized ffa variants, this output is to be connected to either an actual bell, or at least red 'sad' lamp.
asciilifeform: incidentally this is a feature that used to be standard on 'adult' comps, but was lost in the pc babel of 1980s
asciilifeform: gotta indicate to owner when a piece of iron has realized that it is going south. ☟︎
lobbes: !!v 1D7DFBBE5095A736915C2E489F51D7A8E3D26076C2EEF9897A31EFF62B55A459
deedbot: lobbes rated lobbes_field 1 << my handle for when I'm in the $saltmines
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no but listen, this "republic ?! we ain't heard of no stinkin' republic here in bedford, indiana!" quaintness might've been at some point even tolerated -- but it was always ~tolerated~, and in the terms of "oh, check out this moron".
mircea_popescu: like you'd tolerate illiteracy in five year olds, or more generally http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-20#1882319 slash http://bingology.net/2019/02/04/ring-lardner-and-confronting-my-own-inner-hayseed/#selection-57.0-63.103 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-12-20 00:45 asciilifeform: y'know full well that engineers can't find own head from arse in 'fields easier to observe'
mircea_popescu: besideswhich, that "some point", whenever it was, certainly was not later than say http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-14#1834669 -- a year ago is ancient history at the rate we go. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-14 16:50 asciilifeform: oh hey woodchipper day
mircea_popescu: #trilema is the forum of the most serene republic, not "an irc channel" or whatever other http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-03#1869074 -bred nonsense / "consumers have come to expect", and i don't give shit one whether the yokels think they have or think they haven't one in "their" town. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-03 15:04 mircea_popescu: there he sits, remote in hand, "checking to see if there's anything interesting on the tv". are we ready to entertain him yet ? or does he come back later ?
mircea_popescu: the republic both wholly owns and actually made "their town", as well as themselves and everything else. the relationship is exactly of the nature of http://trilema.com/2018/heres-something-you-dont-see-nearly-often-enough/#selection-119.75-119.401 ☟︎
mircea_popescu: now you tell me how you distinguish between case http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892453 and case ~everything this dood spewed. there's http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876356 on the record, and i wasn't kidding then, either. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:13 mircea_popescu: much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 04:52 mircea_popescu: next shit out of your dumb mouth fails to string match apologizing for being quite so fucking stupid, i'ma fix the negligence whereby you can still speak here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fair'nuff
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma bring larvae in strictly once they pupate, as discussed earlier with diana_coman .
asciilifeform: ( haven't grown any to pupae yet, but whoknows, possibly 1 day )
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in 'thought we hit bottom but then heard knock from below' in heathendom, https://archive.is/lFXpf << a chowdhra type Officially calls for nobus to be made Official doctrine
asciilifeform: 'Without an available fix it seems irresponsible to disclose such a vulnerability ...' etc
mircea_popescu: but of course.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892747 << this is a proper question, if not one easy to answer. i believe spyked is correct in http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/082-tmsr-schedule-i.html#selection-55.152-55.393 ; i will not go as far as to say "noob must only be invited at senate once he, like bunyan's hero, understands this is literally the only that does or could matter". nevertheless, it is evidently premature to invite any ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 13:54 asciilifeform: also will ask mircea_popescu to expand re when, exactly, one oughta invite folx from castle.
mircea_popescu: one before they even understand this thing at all is.
mircea_popescu: people visit the senate as a museum all the time, even schoolkids manage it alright. but they do it ~knowing where they are~, it seems to me you do an orc grave disservice if you don't even mention a thing such a town may exist, then take him there. obviously naive extension of whatever shiteating passes in his wilderness will get him thrown out.
mircea_popescu: the only thing*
mircea_popescu: hey phf ben_vulpes and, i guess Framedragger : can i prevail upon you to have (just one) logotron recognize [url][anchor] syntax and render it as <a href=url>anchor</a> instead of the literal ?
asciilifeform: some folx seem to know how to grow n00bs that walk in and set to work right off ( iirc diana_coman had one ) but asciilifeform not achieved this wonder of yet ☟︎
mircea_popescu: did you mention teh matter at all in conversation ?
asciilifeform: which matter
asciilifeform: how to behave ? it aint codified as such anywhere afaik. read noob's www, assumed -- cultured.
mircea_popescu: no. that this here is the republic, which is the all-sovereign, whereas the "united states government" is a tax dodging unrecognized group of social misfits, and so following.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: usually i give'em a link to the log, where can read this & other likbez at leisure.
mircea_popescu: and then they don't, because http://trilema.com/2017/the-practical-costs-of-hallucinated-freedom/ still very much a thing, and slaveworld mindset very much still http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892453 and so on. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:13 mircea_popescu: much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
mircea_popescu: if you want to change anything, change the thing where you fail to mention to kids that there's such a thing as sex until well after they've either been undone by it or somehow, through no fault of your own, survived.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had a http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ , since marked obsolete. i suspect state of the art is still 'read log for year and come back if grasped'
mircea_popescu: for lack of a better entry point i'll stick with http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892214 ; unless someone wants to write a purpose-cut item ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: spyked nice article! it might even end up the current linkpoint for the various http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-25#1889920 lost souls, "here, we know the future" item.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892739 << this is no small matter ; i ~expect~ a number of my own slaves to read each and every fucking line of this here log. it "takes nothing" to read a line until you start multiplying the lines and the readers. but what choice do they have, right, they're my slaves, if i order them that's an end to the matter. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 13:50 diana_coman: asciilifeform, I must admit I fail to see *what* did the guy actually contribute; moreover he asked as far as I can see signalling questions, nothing more; granted, they were related to Ada but that's about the only positive I can find in the whole log I had to go through; perhaps it's simply too early for him to be here? maybe first have something done and only then come and show it?
mircea_popescu: THEN there's all the people who aren't my slaves, who STILL fucking read each line of this here log. also "doesn't take anything" ?
mircea_popescu: eventually you have to compare the marginal gain from "1 of maybe coupla thou noobs with working hands alive" with the marginal cost from "if i read one more redditline in the tmsr log ima tune it out".
mircea_popescu: this is why even the whole castle thing ever exists, to decouple the "well, kid needs to be able to practice his restaurant eating skills sometime" with the obvious "if there's one single further kiddy squeal out chez maxim half the seats will empty up"
asciilifeform: can't find what to dispute, tho will note that redditus-detector like any other detector oughta stay in calibration, if it's set off by gust of wind, it's not a detector at all
mircea_popescu: you propose this is what happened or you just talkin' in teh general ?
asciilifeform: general
mircea_popescu: quite agreed.
mircea_popescu: then again, 0 apparent awareness of the tmsr -> usg relationship is as fine a symptom as can be had, to the best of my knowledge.
asciilifeform: i still dun see an obv 'entry point' for noob in log tho. 'no royal road.'
asciilifeform: unwashed heathen who reads e.g. spyked's post, will understand 0. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: i suspect this is true.
mircea_popescu: and a valid concern, at that, education's an important part of the function of oxford.
asciilifeform: educable folx seem to be pretty thin on the ground tho.
mircea_popescu: in no small part because of the misperception that education is something that'll bend to fit them
asciilifeform: if there's a seekrit reserve of'em somewhere, asciilifeform not found yet.
mircea_popescu: once that's off the ground, as many as one third of the girlies are perfectly educable.
asciilifeform: we already iirc did the a:'so how many solved the ffa puzzlers' m : 'i wouldn't waste a precious trained gurl on such dirty works' thrd, dun have to replay.
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem a very fair summary.
asciilifeform: corrections welcome.
asciilifeform: i aint about to try an' tell mircea_popescu how to use his trained meats. but will remain skeptical that any trainable in the sense asciilifeform contemplates, until see with own eyes, is all.
mircea_popescu: are we talking here of "educable, as the process" or are we talking here of "educable, as to a certain goal" ?
mircea_popescu: whether he ever ends up euler or not, 5yo child is math-educable, provided that every time his mother goes "oh, poor darling shouldn't have to" she gets a black eye.
asciilifeform: narrow sense of educable-as-in-ave1 , i.e. capable of contributing to asciilifeform's load of heavy-lifting in particular.
asciilifeform: i cannot speak for that of other folx.
mircea_popescu: why would you be the one to set other's goals like that ?
mircea_popescu: educable as in positive delta over time, not educable as in, reaches ishtar gate before i get bored waiting.
asciilifeform: can't propose so far as to 'set goal', but will observe that the net # of mechanical moving parts currently fielded that came out of harem, is afaik 0.
asciilifeform: and yes if/when nicoleci or new one etc sends in an optimization for ffa arithm, i'ma take it back.
mircea_popescu: in the sense of, "the only surviving island of non-(engineeridiocy) is this here harem, and further, as part and parcel of my continued and systematic efforts to ensure failure, not only do i perceive this as a substantial lack of everyone else, but instead i'll propose that taking a sufficiently narrow view of the matter, it could almost be said the lacking parts don't even exist" ?
mircea_popescu: except the situation is exactly reversed : it's not nicoleci that's expected to improve on ffa, it's you that's expected to improve on http://trilema.com/2018/how-things-have-changed/#selection-489.0-501.257
asciilifeform: so my summary was 100% on, 'harem is crystalline perfect, and who are you to even suggest to sully it with dirty work'.
mircea_popescu: our problems currently flow around the strong rocks of "there's a bunch of engineers and 0.epsilon businessmen", and the solution to them eminently will not be in the vein you contemplate.
mircea_popescu: i still don't think so.
mircea_popescu: rather a) harems are by their nature private, and consequently the ~outermost limit~ of your interaction with another's will be along the lines of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851696 discussion. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 16:22 mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol.
asciilifeform: also if mircea_popescu says harem consists of sales genius , i'ma believe; but i haven't any direct evidence of subj.
mircea_popescu: and then b) why and wherefore is "work" defined in terms of "ffa improvements" ? thing's not even supposed to be ~improvable~.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also speaking of harem in the general case ( rather than strictly mircea_popescu in particular ), observation is narrowly 'no one yet reported that he trained a harem chix to work on mechanicals'. afaik.
mircea_popescu says no such thing ; but rather the things he says.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and why do they have to ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ave1 managed to deliver a 50% cut in cpu cost, nonetheless (fixed inlining).
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: not that it's not a great achievement and hurray for ave1 ; but that, why's it to do with what we're talking about ?
asciilifeform: so, what's the implication, why do we even need working tech, why not sit around and smell own farts like aristotle & co ?
mircea_popescu: the implication is not re what we need, but re what they need.
mircea_popescu: education is this process whereby people are sharpened, not changed. if girl has it in her to outwrite your ffa, she conceivably will, and if not, she will not. why's this something i'm to fret about ?
asciilifeform: i dunthink i've the req'd yoga level of yet to make sense of this.
mircea_popescu: in short : the point here is that we control ~the process~ of education, not ~the outcomes~ of education. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: because we're still causes not purposes and all that. who the fuck gives a rat's ass about "what will be".
asciilifeform: 'control outcomes' is red herring, i dun even know how to 'control outcome' of potted tomato plant.
mircea_popescu: precisely.
asciilifeform: can still observe that nobody's yet afaik grown truffle 'in captivity' tho.
mircea_popescu: where truffle is macro-expanded to "fixed my ffa" ?
asciilifeform: it's a concretization. dun have to be 'fix xyz', could be e.g. 'find how to grow working ic inside a metre^3 box' or any 1 of 9000 unsolveds.
asciilifeform: or for that matter the direly needed biznisgenius.
mircea_popescu: and how'd you discern if anybody did so grow or did not so grow ?
asciilifeform: can directly observe only that array of $problem remains open.
asciilifeform: whether 'not grown', or 'not deigns to show face', cannot discern.
asciilifeform: ( in selected cases, e.g. where bernstein prefers to smoke crack rather than showing up , can discern. but their song is sung , not much to add to'em )
asciilifeform: to take 1 instance, say, the 'penetrate china' problem.
mircea_popescu: so, ultimately, the logic here goes thusly : 1) of all the parts of living animal, i choose spleen to be defined as "only relevant part", arbitrarily. because i really like spleens and i don't really understand anything besides them nor do i wish to or see why i should have to ;
mircea_popescu: 2) none of those other cells like intestinal cillia, or muscle smooth and striated, or neuron, axon, whatever does anything measurable to enlarge the spleen. 3) thus therefore it can be concluded that properly speaking, the only things growing spleen are the spleen itself.
mircea_popescu: i don't even see the problem with this. though i must confess midly curious as to why it manages to occupy your time.
asciilifeform: happens, when you work on spleens for 20y.
mircea_popescu: you know, when it comes to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892810 hanbot 's actually the champ so far. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 17:10 asciilifeform: some folx seem to know how to grow n00bs that walk in and set to work right off ( iirc diana_coman had one ) but asciilifeform not achieved this wonder of yet
mircea_popescu: not counts ?
asciilifeform: defo counts
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's score is ~0 to date tho.
asciilifeform: iirc all of mine died, like that chinese silkworm on moon.
mircea_popescu: but died leaving behind actionables!
asciilifeform: they did ??
asciilifeform: what did e.g. adlai leave
mircea_popescu: for instance, you discovered, much to your own surprise, that in fact you were treating republican discussion with your noobs exact way parents were treating discussion of fucking.
mircea_popescu: "will mention it no sooner than it no longer makes any difference!"
asciilifeform: i suppose they left dissectable corpses
mircea_popescu: indeed so.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, on the other lobe, if it does make a difference i will declare that i'm absolutely not wilfully persecuting alf descendants.
asciilifeform believes !
mircea_popescu: however it may seem from whatever angle howsoever chosen.
asciilifeform: btw at one pt i tried to read the pile of strange gabriel_laddel left in his smoking crater. was not able to make sense.
asciilifeform: was mostly comments tho, at least man knew how to write comments !111
asciilifeform: by the megabyte, even..
mircea_popescu: !!up lobbes_field
deedbot: lobbes_field voiced for 30 minutes.
lobbes_field: danke
asciilifeform: hm lobbes_field didntcha rate the field nick earlier ? ougtha work on own steam >
asciilifeform: ?
lobbes_field: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892833 << fwiw I've been (slowly) baking a "Why TMSR?" (In style of Mocky's 'why ada?') post that is to be aimed at a heathen audience. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 17:35 asciilifeform: unwashed heathen who reads e.g. spyked's post, will understand 0.
asciilifeform: lobbes_field: neato
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i honestly don't think poor success rates with clinically relevant levels of self absorbed morons is necessarily something you'd be too worried about.
lobbes_field: asciilifeform I did rate, but away from any keys atm
mircea_popescu: that you tried, good. but to go, oh, adlai g_l etcetera O NOES... it's a little much.
mircea_popescu: lobbes_field i'll defo read!
lobbes_field: Anyways,  I generally agree that there exists the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-22#1804603 problem (though, I'd argue the experience is not exclusive to pantsuit, but for anyone brought up in the usual 'amatuer' environment of usgistan) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-04-22 18:25 BingoBoingo: To pantsuit all of #trilema has to read as vexual as vexual reads to us
mircea_popescu: i believe.
mircea_popescu: it's becoming in any case quite fucking apparent.
mircea_popescu: it also happens to be exactly the inverted image of success, culturally.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: verily, if you try an' bake an item that 'fits in ALL heads', end up with marx, christianity, etc
mircea_popescu: something like that.
asciilifeform: who wants ~that~ success, can go across the street and buy by the bucketload
lobbes_field: The difficulty to be able to give 'just the gist' is a good sign of something of substance
mircea_popescu: thinking about it, lobbes ' distinction actually stands. pantsuit included in amateur set, but not exclusively.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff , the verisimilitude fella's parting words were approx 'but wtf IS tmsr, can you give me gist at least!'
mircea_popescu: entirely avoidable beheading. mention it first, not last.
asciilifeform previously tried in the style of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892794 , but heathen's transformer windings tend to saturate and 'wtf, didja escape from nuthouse' and convo dun move no moar after that. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 16:30 mircea_popescu: the republic both wholly owns and actually made "their town", as well as themselves and everything else. the relationship is exactly of the nature of http://trilema.com/2018/heres-something-you-dont-see-nearly-often-enough/#selection-119.75-119.401
mircea_popescu: is this a bad thing ?
asciilifeform: not for so long as we dun need the new spleen cells for anyffin.
mircea_popescu: but let's compare outcomes. 1) alf talks to noob, elides any mention of republic, noob passes whatever lite-qualifications, comes here, gets negrated ; 2) alt talks to noob, mentions republic, noob runs off screaming.
mircea_popescu: seems both produce the same amt of noob, ie , 0, but 2 produces less negratings. still better neh ?
asciilifeform: #2 beats 1, at least economizes log space.
asciilifeform: i'ma stick to 2 unless somebody suggests a viable 3.
mircea_popescu: so then. "convo dun move no moar after that" means ~little. spyked was reading trilema early enough, as evident in the various antiqua he can drag in. then... convo moved no more after that... for what, eyars ? and then it moved.
asciilifeform: tru
mircea_popescu: this "convo moves" thing is as decidable as "computer never halting"
asciilifeform: also tru. i have nfi for instance re whether e.g. Framedragger , halted
mircea_popescu: me either.
asciilifeform: or eaten by sea serpent or what.
mircea_popescu: i am not saying here you must always lead with the http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/#selection-145.1-145.46 (tm) or the equally celebrated http://trilema.com/2018/heres-something-you-dont-see-nearly-often-enough/#selection-25.0-25.85 (tm).
mircea_popescu: i happen to prefer excluding hard and early, but it's entirely my business, not some kind of universal model.
asciilifeform: seems like mircea_popescu's method beats the 'soft' 1 tho -- better that heathen shits himself outside of the gate than in
mircea_popescu: but still, by the time the one important thing, important to the exclusion of all others, was NEVER mentioned... something's wrong. i mean, just like http://trilema.com/2018/the-republic-without-mp/ except in the flavbour of... the republic without republic ? what possible sense does this make ?
asciilifeform: how does one go about mention without an agreed prior ?
mircea_popescu: whether you're willing to confront this or not, it's still factual that ~you~ wrote ffa at least ~in part~ because republic, and left to your own devices entirely you'd conceivably be http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892360 to this very day! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 17:18 asciilifeform: back when asciilifeform was spending his days putting robot arm through glass doors etc
asciilifeform: can say 'republic' but it's just a string to'em
mircea_popescu: this is very much a point. gotta find a prior, and to find you must look for it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not only , but took 3+y of republic to wake up to that particular job needin' doin
lobbes_field: Fwiw when I first started reading logs/trilema in 2014, I alternated between lost/confused/disturbed/intrigued. Then I stopped reading entirely for almost 6 months. Then finally it "hit me like a shit ton of bricks (tm)" and I realized I -had- to start doing (i.e. there was no choice if I wanted to actually make a mark on the world)
mircea_popescu: three years is not a small number of years.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall, i actually thought it was avoidable somehow
mircea_popescu: you know ?
mircea_popescu: men are but boards, rats are but water etc.
phf: mircea_popescu: is the idea that message like logotron will render it as just "logotron" in html? ☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 1 week, 0 days, and 15 hours ago: <asciilifeform> plox to snarf ch.16, ty
mircea_popescu: phf linked, yes.
asciilifeform: ohai phf
phf waives
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: waves, you silly!
phf: it feels more sophisticated with an "i" in there
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: a okiey
lobbes_field back to mines, bbl
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform reviewing history, there's a lot of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1853976 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854006 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854010 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854019 and so following. now, as a factual matter, the dood DID NOT give a shit, september to february. may i ask for my own curiosity what informs the "teachable" part in "teachable noob" ? ☝︎☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 00:21 mircea_popescu: !!up verisimilitude
a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 00:30 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ever read the #trilema logs ? or just this minute found it
a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 00:32 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i highly recommend it, right now you're in approx the position of that random fella who sat down in a cargo plane and took off on a lark
a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 00:34 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i have quite a few items in own notebook similar to yours, from decade+ ago. lemme guess, were you stuck on uninhabited island ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i read through his www, when he reappeared, and assumed that showed up on acct of having eaten log and having clue.
asciilifeform: evidently nope.
mircea_popescu: but why assume when could ask ?
asciilifeform: still puzzled re why reappeared if never bothered to read log.
mircea_popescu: precisely for the stated reason, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-03#1869074 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-11-03 15:04 mircea_popescu: there he sits, remote in hand, "checking to see if there's anything interesting on the tv". are we ready to entertain him yet ? or does he come back later ?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> also tru. i have nfi for instance re whether e.g. Framedragger , halted << iirc hooked on socialism?
asciilifeform suspects that his mental model of heathen is actually ~deteriorating~ with time
mircea_popescu: i believe this may well be true.
mircea_popescu: as you never put any deliberate effort into studying such, your only model is built passively and as you've been spending less and less time in the soup...
asciilifeform: even prior to republic, asciilifeform had a rudimentary compass, where 'comp would be a nifty item if it actually worked, nao where are there any people with half a brain who might care to see it fix'
asciilifeform: what i never had ~any~ grasp on is the folx without ~any~ compass.
mircea_popescu: i beg your pardon, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-01#1838623 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-08-01 03:03 douchebag: I'm in AT&T Hall of Fame
asciilifeform: wat do they ~do~ when wake up ? drag to the slop bucket like prikoke ?
BingoBoingo: What, the JWZ's just wanna be, wanna get along
mircea_popescu: erryone got a compass. however, the two most widely sold models point squarely to Mom and own dick.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: how does that scratch the itch of life tho. if 'want to get along', why not eat pistol sooner rather than later
mircea_popescu: takes some intensity to off self.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hence prikoke
BingoBoingo: Hedonistic adaptation, they always itch. Can't care
mircea_popescu: this is a good point. heroin addict cold turkey itches INSIDE THE VEINS.
mircea_popescu: what scratch ?
asciilifeform: dose 'scratches' neh
mircea_popescu: soothes, but not scratches. the problem with scratching is that the loop completer is only implemented in skin.
mircea_popescu: ~all~ nerve terminations can itch ; only skin nerve contains the "scratched" response.
asciilifeform: is this how folx end up lopping off own limbs etc ?
mircea_popescu: yup.
asciilifeform: ( only to then contract 'phantom' )
mircea_popescu: "defective". which, technically, it is.
asciilifeform: iirc g_l & his leg etc
mircea_popescu: i dunno what that was, very livresque reference to elliott, the whole foot thing.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I suspect it would do you well to carve out some time this week or next to take in the tract on America. The off season devolution models this very much and can't fairly be summarized.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'ma get to it at some pt. currently hands full with 1) ffa 16b & 17 2) looking into to whom we gotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892227 3) speccing components for 2nd rk plant ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 22:58 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: When do you anticipate having brain space/time available to revisit the mechanization thread?
asciilifeform: 1000 pounds'a shit in 10 pound bag.
asciilifeform: ftr ch17 is mostly written, btw.
asciilifeform: it's where 'peh'.
asciilifeform: i.e. 'adult' prog lang, with functions, variables, loops (with capped # of max ticks) etc.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892752 << very much self-solving, "by the time they ask things that result in discussions you regret not having in #trilema"... well... why regret. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 14:00 diana_coman: fwiw my current (even recently updated!) rule for "when to invite" is ~ "when they are either asking intelligent questions in side-chan already OR have made something useful OR have a concrete, interesting proposition explored first in side-chan"
mircea_popescu: eg http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891844 happened specifically because "hm, this private convo... shouldn't die in smg boardroom". not the first time, either. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 21:00 mircea_popescu: now, it seems to me the case that since there's little benefit in having more threads than cores, it is perfectly acceptable (in this situation) to hold these in an array set as to whatever maximum is reasonable. 32 or 64 or whatever count.
mircea_popescu: this doesn't map directly, but if diana_coman were a noob that'd be the time i'd be like, "btw guise..."
mircea_popescu: and it works equally well with the dead, it's the time when eg lardner ended up in log. and so on.
asciilifeform: lol 'if grandmother had balls'(tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: hm ?
asciilifeform: 'if diana_coman were noob'
mircea_popescu: lol!
asciilifeform: i do wonder what diana_coman was like as a noob tho
mircea_popescu: she'd have no trouble at all getting an invite, huh ? such is the payoff of hard work!
asciilifeform: i dun actually know the orig story of diana_coman
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually, i can show you : http://trilema.com/2009/castiga-1000-ron-de-craciun/#comment-11652 ☟︎
asciilifeform: iirc was init eulora player
asciilifeform: aa so apparently pre-dates.
asciilifeform: oh hm interesting, ancient diana_coman www
asciilifeform: lol i've been trying ~not~ to collect moar http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892390 fodder, will have to shelve for laters. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 20:00 mircea_popescu: i guess ima put this in the report, "lost cto to binge reading ancient html site"
mircea_popescu: keks.
mircea_popescu: the problem with asking questions in here.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892758 << i specifically ~don't~ read them, among other real or imagined reasons specifically so i don't end up galled by some random infantilism and then carry it about. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 14:06 diana_coman: but that's the point: side-channels are permissive, #trilema is not; and on the sharp end of it, coming in too early can result in negrate
mircea_popescu: allegedly i gall easily.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu already teaches meat kindergarten, i dun expect he'd want moar for anyffin
mircea_popescu: that also.
mircea_popescu: re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892771 recall ye olden days of http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-26#1034672 / http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-26#1034674 ? ☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 14:37 asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i didn't end up on 2012 blindly, actually walked the feature ladder and consciously picked.
a111: Logged on 2015-02-26 19:35 punkman: asciilifeform: should I be looking at ada 2012 flavour?
a111: Logged on 2015-02-26 19:36 asciilifeform: none of the post-95 features are likely to be usable on a bare-metal build
mircea_popescu: but anyway, for completeness, the matter was more or less disposed may 2016 : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-04#1462227 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-05-04 00:56 mod6: <+asciilifeform> in other nyooz, my 'ada 2012 ref man.' is here. << that's neat. thought we were leaning towards the '95 standard?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc Mocky actually captured all of the old ada threads in his review
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: you're right, that'd be the correct entrypoint.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893028 -> ha, 10 years! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 19:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually, i can show you : http://trilema.com/2009/castiga-1000-ron-de-craciun/#comment-11652
mircea_popescu: mazel tov!
mircea_popescu looking back has had SUCH a strapping good time!
asciilifeform recalls in '16 reading slowly in hammock https://www.ada-ru.org/V-0.4w/index.html ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: ( there's a built-in pun in the title, Адское ~= 'from hell' )
asciilifeform: imho ~still~ the a++ best intro text.
asciilifeform: the barnes b00k is a veeerry distand 2nd
asciilifeform: *distant
diana_coman: feeding into the earlier discussion re noobs: of those 14 accepted entries to that competition (+6 failed entries and supposedly out of ALL the Romanian blogs), only 7 still exist online and anyway stopped writing in 2011 -2014
diana_coman can't quite make her mind: already/only TEN years ?
mircea_popescu: c'est la vie!
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893054 -> that must be THE way to learn languages: 2 at a time, russian+ada in one go to not feel like wasting time ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 19:44 asciilifeform recalls in '16 reading slowly in hammock https://www.ada-ru.org/V-0.4w/index.html
asciilifeform: diana_coman: lol, didnt mircea_popescu once mention that he did landau & fr in 1 shot
diana_coman: I don't recall
asciilifeform: !#s landau
a111: 25 results for "landau", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=landau
asciilifeform: hrm, dun seem to be in the log.
asciilifeform: pretty sure i didn't dream it tho.
diana_coman: speaking of Barnes' Ada book: it IS very useful and I certainly do go back to it quite often still for all sorts but it still has at times such ideas that I can't stand; e.g. "The reader will probably feel that the activation mechanism is somewhat elaborate. However, in practice, the details will rarely need to be considered. They are mentioned in order to show that the mechanism is well defined rather than because of their everyday import ☟︎
diana_coman: ance." (p.531, Programming in Ada 2012)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it's a pretty dubious b00k. problem is, i dun have anyffin to recommend to engl. readers other than it
asciilifeform: ( and the standard docs, but go an' try to learn lang from those )
diana_coman: myeah, true; just wanted to point out this sort of rakes for potential noobs out there
asciilifeform: i'd even say that 80+% of the thing consists of rakes, by mass
asciilifeform: that whole chunk of the lang that one is simply better off ignoring
asciilifeform: i ate http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893054 cover to cover, but read maybe 4 ch of barnes. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 19:44 asciilifeform recalls in '16 reading slowly in hammock https://www.ada-ru.org/V-0.4w/index.html
asciilifeform: and dun intend to touch the remainder .
diana_coman: to know what to ignore, that's the...skill
diana_coman: hmmm, is it really THAT good?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it wasn't actively 'break out in hives' allergenic, is all.
diana_coman: ah
asciilifeform: d00d knew how to avoid bloating.
asciilifeform: some folx write to kill tree, others -- to actually get the material across to reader.
diana_coman: the logarithmic/exponential model? http://ossasepia.com/2018/12/24/a-week-in-tmsr-10-16-december-2018/comment-page-1/
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: it.
diana_coman: since you were asking re "noob diana_coman": while at Uni, 2nd year or so, I had this outburst at some point: wtf IF only you'd recommend a GOOD book ffs instead of all the bullshit
asciilifeform: lol i had this ~erry time i walked into a course
asciilifeform: i can't speak for europistans, but in 'new world' this is a dire problem, there largely ~aint~ any good book.
asciilifeform: e.g. brin elder would've luvved to assign e.g. kurosh as the textbook, i suspect, but could not , it dun exist afaik in eng ☟︎
diana_coman: well yes, the noob part being that a. I had not realised that a good book was actually something rare - I had just put it all on the teachers' incompetence/lack of interest in recommending something useful b. it took me that long to realise fully the difference between the bullshit stuff that was abundantly provided and something useful
asciilifeform: ( what little of use that ~does~ exist in eng, is 'ancient' and 'wouldn't do!11' to assign, cuz threadbare faculty would rather pad own pockets and send chumpers to buy ~their~ dead tree rubbish ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: i went to what at the time was supposed to be a 'decent' public uni in usa, and do you think anyone assigned knuth ?
asciilifeform: (spoiler -- nope)
diana_coman: just in case anyone wonders: it was anyway all in English, not like one had much in Romanian on the topic (and to this day, reading CS in Romanian is just not worth it)
asciilifeform: of course there was 1 at the library (at the time, naodays library mostly hollowed out), the tomes stuck together from age, just like the lenin on the 4th floor
diana_coman: oh, huh; at least they DID mention Knuth to us
diana_coman: later than my outburst :D
diana_coman: it's actually even translated to Ro, I still have the volumes on my shelf though I go and read...the English version :D
asciilifeform: i actually picked up a ru transl, which i had nfi existed until found in a skip (!) at same uni
asciilifeform: ( seems like a ru maffs prof keeled over / retired, and all of his shelf was tossed )
asciilifeform: i went in with duffelbags and pocketed it all.
diana_coman: pitty you didn't find the prof before finding only his...remains as it were
asciilifeform: i found some prior to them expiring, didnt make much diff
asciilifeform: by the time i got to'em already mostly eaten by termites inside.
diana_coman: well, then still only...remains
asciilifeform: they had this d00d, who was chief of sov space ministry at the time of venera probe.
asciilifeform: he ended up hiring undergrad-asciilifeform to... sit in a (princely) locking (!) office and read mountain of treatise re ion engines.
asciilifeform: but d00d was , idk, 80+ y.o., and forgot what step 2 was...
diana_coman: sad really
asciilifeform: quite.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893092 -> honestly, I don't see it: if he luvved to then WHY not recommend it? in martian if that's what it is in, wtf ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:18 asciilifeform: e.g. brin elder would've luvved to assign e.g. kurosh as the textbook, i suspect, but could not , it dun exist afaik in eng
asciilifeform: cuz to ~whom~ recommend.
asciilifeform: 'here, have this mega-opus in martian'
diana_coman: set the brighter students to translate it if need be, but anyways, recommend it
asciilifeform: i get away with it here, mostly, but usg.prof prolly not .
diana_coman: yes, it has to be here, top of the list if it's tops; it's not "recommend for X's and Y's capabilities" but "recommend for Z topic" , isn't it?
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, to close the circle, yrs later i actually ran into kurosh ed. in 100% king's english
asciilifeform: 'mir publishing' 1990 or near.
diana_coman: it has nothing to do with what student might or might not be able to do; if you have a course on X and the main reference is Z then Z is the main recommended book regardless of anything else, what ☟︎
asciilifeform: i'm guessing diana_coman never spent much time in anglotardistan
diana_coman: well, not in the US (got once to Boston for a conf. and that's all) and not in English education system at any rate, true
asciilifeform: lucky, too
asciilifeform: nuffin here is healthy or whole, it is like living on those tomatoes they grow in chernobyl exclusion zone ☟︎
asciilifeform: errything is subtly poison. and not merely the air, water, food ( these -- so obv. that even the localtards understand, generally ) -- but the ~thought~
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu at one pt walked around in usa for coupla ~yrs~ and then noticed and took the first plane out and never set foot again
asciilifeform: erry time asciilifeform gets a chance to walk out, going back feels rather like back to insane asylum.
asciilifeform: except that i dun think anywhere in civilized world keeps the insane in anyffin resembling the conditions.
diana_coman: hmmmm, a tiny Diana loved those well-written children stories; and then she re-read them at age 12 or so and was so shocked to see how much propaganda they were....; my point being: I doubt there is any place which is not "subtly poison" of one sort or another
asciilifeform: which were these, diana_coman
asciilifeform: ( o'henry ? twain ? )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: strontium is in the milk of erry cow alive, but still wouldntcha rather drink from cow in ro than from chernobyl.
diana_coman: some Romanian author, lemme see, www.anticariat-unu.ro/vorba-buna-inteleptul-de-al-gheorghiu-pogonesti-1980-p98305 ☟︎
diana_coman: it's even precisely the cover I remember, lol
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, 80+% of that very strontium is there on acct of ameritards having their fireworx )
asciilifeform: from 'bikini' to mid-90s
diana_coman: thing is: it's ~never about what you'd "rather" but ~always about what you'd NOT stand
asciilifeform: diana_coman: can barf at the communist kid b00kz, but seems to me that even there result is considerably closer to human and farther from bonsaikitten of disney princess etc.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: There were a couple dirtier uncontained Nevada tests than 'bikini' The 'Ploughshares' series was especially salty
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: correct, approx at the time they started optimizing for neutron yield
diana_coman: asciilifeform, you know, I do NOT barf at all at Neznaika and at Nosov in general and yes, I read them as a child an in Romanian and loved them; and I re-read them at 12 and at 19 and at 25 and STILL loved them
asciilifeform: same.
asciilifeform: btw didja ever read 'neznaika on the moon'
asciilifeform: the 1 where they go to where capitalism.
BingoBoingo: Well, also they were doing the advanced nuclear chemisty *INSIDE* copious dirt to kick up.
diana_coman: so no, I'm not barfing at communist kid bookz but at propaganda fed while one's too young to even *notice* it
asciilifeform: hilarious item, almost 'tardstalk btc investments' in storybook form.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no; now I must find it, lol
asciilifeform: if anybody turns this item up in eng, plox to write in
asciilifeform: in '90s ru, there was joke that went around where eltsin had sworn on a copy somehow instead of bible
asciilifeform: ( and magicking as result the privatizationlulz into being ) ☟︎
diana_coman: ahhh, if at it, asciilifeform one thing I really try to get hold of and couldn't, perhaps you have it: some offline audiobooks read by this Samoilov Vladimir?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'radio zvezda' has a bunch on their www iirc.
asciilifeform: i'ma look in the warez chest an' see if got any there also.
diana_coman: I've found it online but not for download, and in piecemeal fashion rather than full thing
asciilifeform brb,ttime
feedbot: http://pizarroisp.net/2019/02/05/pizarro-january-2019-report/ << PizarroISP -- Pizarro January 2019 Report
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/belgian-minister-forced-off-the-job-for-pointing-out-obviously-organized-protest-was-organized/ << Qntra -- Belgian Minister Forced Off The Job For Pointing Out Obviously Organized Protest Was Organized
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893094 << quite like the medicine. oh, sulfa NO GOOD. let's not even start on http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-12#918823 lest we end up straight with http://trilema.com/2011/ecologistii-cei-mai-ipocriti-dintre-paminteni/#selection-47.1-51.521 "why EXACTLY is philiphs paying govts to ruin 3rd world's manufacturing" ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:19 asciilifeform: ( what little of use that ~does~ exist in eng, is 'ancient' and 'wouldn't do!11' to assign, cuz threadbare faculty would rather pad own pockets and send chumpers to buy ~their~ dead tree rubbish )
a111: Logged on 2014-11-12 20:50 mircea_popescu: and since we're on it, methotrexate is used as an abortifacent, notwithstanding that ethacridine lactate is cheaper, can be used without needing a hospital visit and much safer.
mircea_popescu: can't locate now the discussion of danone giving out "free baby formula" to moronic (aka "aspirational") orc females just for long enough to suspend natural lactation, and etcetera.
mircea_popescu: denied middle, yes.
asciilifeform: iirc was nestle co
asciilifeform: but possible elsewhere also
asciilifeform: ameripharma is just tip of the iceberg.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893123 << for all the wank re "science of education", entire field is exactly at shaman stage, something as basic as http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892871 entirely undiscovered arcana. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:29 diana_coman: it has nothing to do with what student might or might not be able to do; if you have a course on X and the main reference is Z then Z is the main recommended book regardless of anything else, what
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 18:11 mircea_popescu: in short : the point here is that we control ~the process~ of education, not ~the outcomes~ of education.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: far as i'm concerned, walking bodies who can't languages into a higher maffs classroom is == lunacy to walking in ones who never learned arithmetic
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform weirdly that doesn't yield either. i coudl've sworn we had a logthread on african "career women" and euro powdered milk. ☟︎
asciilifeform: iirc was a trilema piece.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893127 << you have no idea. should see them butcher the classics, "proust expert", "let me read you some latin", jesus f christ. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:30 asciilifeform: nuffin here is healthy or whole, it is like living on those tomatoes they grow in chernobyl exclusion zone
mircea_popescu: at least math stays mathy. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893136 << ha, never seen that1 b4. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:37 diana_coman: some Romanian author, lemme see, www.anticariat-unu.ro/vorba-buna-inteleptul-de-al-gheorghiu-pogonesti-1980-p98305
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893154 << if you're into these, the story of the west india trading co and the corp boom, the involvement of said newton, and of the king's finance dept is well worth a study. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:43 asciilifeform: ( and magicking as result the privatizationlulz into being )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-10-10#347200 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2013-10-10 15:01 mircea_popescu: ;;google "a company for carrying out an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is"
asciilifeform: ... east india ?
mircea_popescu: nah, the dutch item.
asciilifeform: aa
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> iirc was nestle co << Same organization different places
feedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2993 << Loper OS -- Lost Technology: The PQ3QI-01 Sunl...able Display.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1893178 << you oughta see how they 'teach' it tho. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 23:06 mircea_popescu: at least math stays mathy.