trinque: bvt: would be great to put the config you produced on your blog with what hardware you use.
trinque: later this can inform a process of muntzing shit off the kernel
trinque: relatedly, here's a worthy task for an idle hand : find the oldest kernel you can boot on hardware you're willing to use
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the "compatibility through software length" thing has gone on long enough.
mircea_popescu: from now on, "compatibility through doing things a ~certain~ way, for good and ~well explained~ reasons".
mircea_popescu: nevermind "open source". honor the same lordship, therefore have well explained things, therefore have compatibility.
mircea_popescu: "C++ is philosophically and cognitively unsound as it forces a violation of all known epistemological processes on the programmer."
mircea_popescu: this sounds quite persuasively elegant and so on. but then,
mircea_popescu: "as a language, it requires you to specify in great detail what you do not know in order to obtain the experience necessary to learn it."
☟︎ mircea_popescu: well what the fuck. like on earth turns out to be just as philosophically and cognitively unsound. which it is.
mircea_popescu: trinque did you ever see the guy irl lately ? say this year or something ?
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 04:54 mircea_popescu: "as a language, it requires you to specify in great detail what you do not know in order to obtain the experience necessary to learn it."
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 01:00 trinque: relatedly, here's a worthy task for an idle hand : find the oldest kernel you can boot on hardware you're willing to use
mircea_popescu: at the worst this'll get us a nibler notion of the gcc tree.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:24 mircea_popescu: actually ada not having a backend can (and probably will) hide all sorta surprises.
mircea_popescu: the computing 90s are soon to be just a memory, as these artefacts of sheer wtf slowly disappear.
a111: Logged on 2015-01-10 06:25 asciilifeform: mats: gcc... a) i dont get it... << what's the hard concept here? rms wishes to avoid gcc turning into a sweet and defenceless piece of candy for the 'embrace & extend/extinguish' folks.
mircea_popescu: they should have built an army in the 90s, rather than go for weakass jwz-catering.
mircea_popescu: their window's closed, nobody cares what they think nao.
mircea_popescu: now we're left with all those bleaters with livers, that are also spurious. "but mp, why won't you go into the liver ?" "wut ?"
mircea_popescu: "it worked for free and open plant!!!" "yeah ?" "UNFAIR!"
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 15:22 mircea_popescu: holy shit, EVERY SINGLE THING. look here :
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:49 mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:42 asciilifeform: ( for n00bz: ) writing a compiler back-end aint actually hard. asciilifeform & many many other folx, did it ~as homework~ , at school. the hard thing is writing a ~decent~ optimizing backend.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:05 asciilifeform: ( and when found that ~despite this~,
http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , was pant-shittingly hilarious, how koch still managed to be the tortoise in the race )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 15:12 mircea_popescu: well, either that or they o(N) + n log n for some values of N, n.
mircea_popescu: maybe 98. but in any case, the only discernible reason anyone uses it is that everyone is, individually, too lazy to write a proper one.
mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 18:44 asciilifeform: nao tbf could even make same observation re emacs ( it's never the 1970s c core that bombs, always extension script that hangs )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:43 mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:37 asciilifeform: 'notation is worth +80 iq' or how did it go.
mircea_popescu: imo is the perfect approach to "you wish to use insane hw, you pay cost for it".
mircea_popescu: that "% of horse power" is entirely not % of horse power ; the measure of horse power is at the torque end, not at horse's feelings end.
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit some insane nonsense "feels like" it's doing "a lot of work". the work done is measured at the useful end.
mircea_popescu: otherwise what, every useless 30something female with crotch rot under fluorescent lighting, also "is doing a lot of work" because she "feels" so ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 07:29 mircea_popescu: !!rate verisimilitude -1 children, seen and not heard.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 04:53 mircea_popescu: !!rate zx2c4 -1 moron
mircea_popescu: it shouldn't be difficult to notice that the "gcc plugging wrong end of funnel" is not simple coincidence, but the necessary result of the feelings and
optionalities these idiots perceive themselves to be having without actually having them.
mircea_popescu: as long as the tim swansons of the world remain an oppressed minority, the world can be sane ; and not futher.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 16:08 asciilifeform: various folx attempted something roughly like this, but succumbed to own idiocy -- e.g. the java people, who 1) wrapped their 'vm' around the nonsensical shape of their tardlang 2) stopped short of 'and no this doesn't run on your tard os, is IS the os, fuckyou' ;
mircea_popescu: they failed to identify the victims, and failed to victimize them.
mircea_popescu: actually when Mocky_ is done with qatar history, maybe he regales us with a summarized java history ~from inside~ on his blog.
☟︎ mircea_popescu studiously and quite deliberately ignored the whole thing as a wikitarida/reddit of its time.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 16:26 mircea_popescu: THAT is what it hinges on.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 16:37 mircea_popescu: actually when Mocky_ is done with qatar history, maybe he regales us with a summarized java history ~from inside~ on his blog.
mircea_popescu: i'm not proposing a reign of terror, merely intolerance.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> it is interestingly imho reminiscent of plant toxin , d00d couldn't think of anyffin but 'let's make it poison' in re defense << Datura
mircea_popescu: apparently the dogs can learn to give it a berth. great perfume too
BingoBoingo: Gotta get some here before considering ground level properties
mircea_popescu: watch them lose, get gutted, etc. anyone recall ALL THE OTHER pantsuit vehicles, meanwhile gutted in exact same manner ?
mircea_popescu: apparently if you sign up to star in one usg.blue production, you're stuck doing all the sequels also.
BingoBoingo: Recently (within the past two months) WaPo's slate magazine hired one of the more flamboyant Gawker alumni to do a "sex column" with some burnt out porn chick turned old woman
mircea_popescu: see, the old british ban on champerty & maintenance meanwhile dead. the fact that it happened to rando kid dun matter, trial can be bought.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: If anything the tort in this case is clearer
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:57 asciilifeform: the Right Thing will look roughly like a 256kB chunk of asm that the box boots straight into, and afterwards forgets that it's an x86, arm, etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re bios emu -- i am certainly not against trying this. it's not possible to say much more than that as things stand now.
mircea_popescu: understand tho, it has a very visible facet of wishful thinking. i mean yes, obviously, way the fuck better to have all the needful stuff in one place than added to each binary. this much is certain. nevertheless, the notion that you can stuff a converter from insanity to sanity "in the bios" requires just as much a magical stone as any other "universal sanity-insanity bridge".
mircea_popescu: like all attempts to date have, here or anywhere else.
mircea_popescu: the obvious counter there will be "but not cheaper than baking ONE sane gcc". which is true, but nevertheless not as useful -- sometimes having an interface, even if "spurious" is better than not having it, which is why parents don't customarily discuss family finances with their 12yos.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:49 asciilifeform: re bolix back end, i suspect it aint very useful as starting point, because was far ~too easy~ item , in that the iron per se was sane (i.e. performed bounds and type checks, so much of what gcc is stuck doing in soft, was unnecessary )
mircea_popescu: other than this, the "we don't want to fuck our brains with $bad-arch" is a dead end -- you will, whether to write gcc for it or to write bios for it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's never cheaper to have a coupling than a straight link. nevertheless, couplings are used.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform large part of people's complaints re leverage are insane. take the recent naggum piece discussed, he complains, literally, that "he wants to lie once rather than everywhere". duh, no sed where this man lives ?
mircea_popescu: from the pov of auditing it is certainly cheaper to move it into the "emulator"
mircea_popescu: however, consider situation 1, where "it is in emulator" and situation 2, where "it is in this one tmsr standards library".
mircea_popescu: the 2nd gets linked in however many binaries you wish, still is a single item.
mircea_popescu: even so. as far as reading goes, you still read it the same number of times, whether it's linked or bios'd.
mircea_popescu: then again this whiole discussion is moot, because step 1 towards that magical bios asm blob is a tmsr standards lib to replace glibc anyway.
mircea_popescu: certainly. but once you start talking about unified abi, you're very much starting there.
mircea_popescu: ie, the fact that glibc doesn't come with sane memory allocator ~is a failure of glibc~.
mircea_popescu: or in other words, the overlap is large even if the barbarians cut it wrongly and on the basis of their cuts it seems to not be\
mircea_popescu: but srsly now, the "standards lib" lets me print to screen but not print to ram ? wut.
mircea_popescu: terminology fails, mostly because terminology was made by morons and we're trying to discuss analysis in roman numerals here, but consider "glibc" would be a... well i guess a kernel mod the program links against as a library ?
mircea_popescu: to follow the logic : the notion that you'd have a kernel mod to interface with peripherals, but not with code, is somewhat bizarre.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the large problem here is that the ast will have to be ultimately a homomorphism of machine language. which is the dubious part in the "emulator" pov.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm aware, evolved not designed. nevertheless, the fundamental breakage here is that glibc is proposed as a "library" rather than a "kernel mod". not that these terms make any fucking sense anyway, but what the fuck am i gonna do.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i think i fully understand what you mean re "no compiler, no linker" : it is evidently a broken situation when you have TWO patsh from "what master said" to "what machine does".
mircea_popescu: which is the point, it's a waste of time to consider "how linus separated" or "how rms thought should be separated". whoile thing's built on magic musherooms, "sky quadrants" etc.
mircea_popescu: fucking bs "science" where ALL the notiuons are broken.
mircea_popescu: very early 1500s medicino-chemistry-philosophical-barbershop flavour to the whole field.
mircea_popescu: but back to it, let's try and use different terms : i deem your "whole thing is an emu, in machine lang, bios boots into it" to be a "approach from machine end".
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with this. and will have to be at least attempted.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the obvious alternative, factually there as holes follow fills and so on, is "approach from code end". and this approach'd be something like a ~proper~ standards lib. ie, both with proper access and proper primitives.
mircea_popescu: and i'm saying that a) both approaches share a lot of overlap (you say no, but you agree next line that conceptually, field is broken -- that is overlap!!! you just agreed!)
mircea_popescu: and that b) it is likely to be easier to start picking low hanging fruit from right rather than left, simply because cheaper fruit lowerly hanging there.
mircea_popescu: it's independent of a, because if it turns out all iron fails math we'll dump all iron, not re-write math.
mircea_popescu: though if memory serves intel mkt dept had internal proposal to "usg pronounces pentium right, everyone changes bookeeping to suit it"
mircea_popescu: moreover -- b is actually a major spot of research, because we don't even exactly know WHAT we will set down as "must be / must not be".
mircea_popescu: anyway, to land this far going baloon : currently, the large chunk of sanification work will likely still be
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898113 ; there's no way to have a world without a backend, there's no way to learn how to build one without unpacking the only one that exists, and so on.
☝︎ mircea_popescu: ada-musl will have to get its own backend, even if it's mpi-style confiscation.
mircea_popescu: this isn't the q. there's exactly one thing that shits bytecode. much like in 2011 there was exactly 1 thing that extended the blockchain.
mircea_popescu: moreover, the recent exception handling discussions & digs exposed most eminently the hole the shit's in. you could improve on gcc right now, just by fixing its idiotic tokenizers, "optimized" log n-onsense ans so forth.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-16 02:24 mod6: This all started because we need a new door, it's old as shit, and all the weather stripping is bad, etc. So of course, this isn't std door size. So I paid some good money to have a custom one made to size. When the carp came out to install it, the first thing he did was pull off one piece of molding, and stuck his file down in the bottom area where that joist is located, and it pushed right through.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 16:39 asciilifeform: trinque: fabrice bellard had an interesting experiment, where he stuffed tinycc into kernel, and had it self-build on boot
mircea_popescu: sounds like he did a lot of the same stuff here contemplated. shoot fellow an arrow maybe ? is he old ?
mircea_popescu: (note: "lists.gnu.org" moved to "lists.nongnu.org"). and other keks.
mircea_popescu: i mean, "<asciilifeform> nao it resembles minix, 100x the mass of the original, and ~less~ function" <mircea_popescu> yeah, but it's in ruby, or w/e the fuck unity.
mircea_popescu: i was trying a tongue in cheek, "yes, now it has more code and less functionality, but it follows whatever trend of insanity".
mircea_popescu: then it was too late, and then it just became incomprehensible.
mircea_popescu: let me guess, the same fucking people who made mul without carry.
mircea_popescu: as a general design principle! you may NOT have "multiple" on a machine. it's 0, 1, buswidth-count. THAT IS IT.
mircea_popescu: and whenever you go with option 3, guess what. 1 IS MASK!
mircea_popescu: i suppose the pov where design is ~constrained~ activity, and the concept of "design competition" must strictly describe a situation where machine a with 64 registers of which one is mask and machine b with 64 registers + ONE separate mask register compete.
mircea_popescu: ie, whenever you encounter "competitions" of malformed nonsense, you're exactly in the position of the ~spectator~ to special olympics.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 23:14 mircea_popescu: "who do you think will win, mr 13, the team with two guys and monkeys or the team with three guys and monkeys ?"
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 14:12 asciilifeform: did we ever do a screw threads thread ?
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 21:55 ascii_butugychag: the whole point of engineering is to cut apart the happenstance-linked crud from what you actually want.
mircea_popescu: kinda makes it a particularly delicious spot to rape the femstate.
mircea_popescu: conquering china, also expensive. who knows, maybe it can be massaged to pay for itself.
hanbot: in bootstrapping adventures, it looks like the flow for a machine that knows to v to get vtools going is like so: grab some ancient v, ie mod6's v.py, use it to press phf's vtools vpatch, then eat phf's v.py "updated for vtools", then press vtools to keccak head. anyone feel like spotting this for me?
hanbot: where "knows to v" = "knows no v". heh.
mircea_popescu: hanbot write down the whole story as you go, but basically yes.
hanbot: right right, i mixed 'em up. and yeah, i'm planning on grabbing phf's keccak v.py in step 3, if only because i've seen diana_coman's pop up in cuntoo tests so i'd like to test the ver less traveled.
BingoBoingo: From the mines: "Viví 6 meses en Madrid y varias veces se me rieron en la cara (la mayoría empleados públicos, y una vez en un banco) por mi manera de hablar, pero mi peor experiencia fue en entrevistas de trabajo donde me dijeron que el problema era que no hablaba español." - Some Uruguayo
BingoBoingo: A bit deeper "Uruguayos no somos Latinos, somos Europeos": "Mi amiga tuvo un hijo en EEUU hace un tiempito y cuando lo van a anotar, dentro de las cosas que ponen en la partida es raza (WTF EEUU??!), la administrativa no quería ponerle "caucásico" así que le puso Latino white o una onda así."
BingoBoingo: Dead cop further down page than dead graffiti communist punk