tmsr - Log 2018-09-19

mircea_popescu: at some point in the 80s, finland-sweden-norway-and-peripheralia were a kind of internet center.

asciilifeform: for short time, they had a) functional people b) with time on their hands

asciilifeform: sorta like early '90s su, for that matter

asciilifeform: certainly nao is ( currently under conversion to a sort of discount bagdad, as i understand )

asciilifeform: sanemoms of ~that~ gen, yes

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:09 ave1: I don't know about the different v-trees for this, I'll have to think about it

asciilifeform: funnily enuff, as recently as '16 we briefly had a finn here, helped me ferret out the amd key thing, but went back into the allconsuming swamp, never heard from again

asciilifeform: !#seen kmalkki

a111: 2016-10-15 <kmalkki> apu1 also really needs DBREQn asserted to give access to USEHDT IR/DR pair

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851358 << imo this is a very stupid way to go about it ; first and foremost for the reason given (why am i signing ifdefs i do not run) but there's also others. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:14 asciilifeform: was speaking of the gprbuild selector variant.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right, i dunlikeit

asciilifeform: it's exactly 'ifdefism'

asciilifeform: currently i only use it to toggle debugflag vs adult build, and that's prolly the beginning and end of the valid use case imho

asciilifeform: gprbuild is spiffy, incidentally. i dun miss gnumake at all.

asciilifeform: automagically finds the c turd, for instance.

asciilifeform: (without explicitly given name). and the rest.

mircea_popescu: i think there's three previous instances on the whole net of "i dun miss gnumake"

asciilifeform: iirc most recently diana_coman's

mircea_popescu: it's kinda mindboggling to me, how readily that seeming tooth-rooted-in-yggdrasil got removed.

asciilifeform: prior to all of this i had gargantuan makefiles, that called out to various shellisms that turned out to flake on e.g. bsd

asciilifeform: ( trb still has )

asciilifeform: btw one of the items i have in the deep freezers, is a trb with block db ripped out, replaced with (half-finished, sadly) ada mmap thing

mircea_popescu: well, where they still c, which is rapidly dwindling (no doubt for this reason -- and batshit insane nonsense like "containers" and "rubies" and whatnot verymuch have their roots in we-were-born-in-gnusty-makefiles-taste-ok"

asciilifeform: ah ~these~ , they dun even use gnumake, they use various heathen horrors, 'modern', 'cmake' etc

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:19 asciilifeform: this is the inevitable cost of v, you gotta weigh 'i can fix this typo, but 5 people will need to either regrind or abandon my tree'

mircea_popescu: the 5 don't have to regrind anymore than you do, can just import the patch.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: subj was specifically the cases where regrind.

mircea_popescu: or you mean "regrind the patch" ? usually regrind means you know, the whole tree.

asciilifeform: nah, patch, in $thread

asciilifeform: ave1 was asking re scenario where 'say i make pdp11.c for yer lib, and you changed the ada trunk, naowat'

mircea_popescu: well so of course if upstream fixes something, downstream will have to either import or lose out. this can't be different nor is in any known system.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the heathens make a pretense that 'dun have to, automerge' etc

asciilifeform: right

asciilifeform: imho this is the Right Thing.

asciilifeform: entirely. this is one of the 9000 ways in which vtronics wins.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851362 << yes! this BingoBoingoian "movement for the sake of movement" thing they do... it is not for white people. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:22 asciilifeform: this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit

asciilifeform: insect movement.

asciilifeform: btw how do i say копошиться in ro

asciilifeform: y'know, specific term for how insects, rodents, scuttle about in-place

asciilifeform: ha , has a pigeon flavour about it

asciilifeform: even exists, sorta , in eng, 'pullulation'

mircea_popescu: literally sounds like cognate of pula, dick. but is ancient latin. can also have viermuiala (wormization)

asciilifeform: that 2nd one sounds on-target

asciilifeform: incidentally, speaking of finns, there was a http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-20#570183 . ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2014-03-20 14:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'cum se suge pula' << can't help but associate this in my head with the finnish proverb, 'Pillu se on pulullakin'

asciilifeform: in '90s asciilifeform idly dreamed of learning fn and going there. but meanwhile they sank.

asciilifeform: for another gen or 2, i'd imagine yes

asciilifeform: (then prolly will all have mustache)

mircea_popescu: lol you saw the pics with that obscure middle earth harem, all chicks with mustachios ?

asciilifeform: where was this

asciilifeform: even notes, 'The harem inmates did not suffer of thinness.'

asciilifeform: http://www.xubux.com/upload/000/u1/013/4781adf0.jpg << i def saw this, in a b00k, must be

asciilifeform: famous shot

asciilifeform: 'face to push locomotive' or how did the ro folx put this.

asciilifeform: i have nfi how this passed 'qa' for 'harem'. but i suppose 'in the great birdlessness, my arse is a nightingale'

asciilifeform: or possib this was one of those degenerate harems that morphed into a sort of harvard, i.e. institution that popped its tether to whatever original ground it stood on

asciilifeform: like osman harem

asciilifeform: it is difficult imho to picture a d00d with working cock having been involved in the auditions for this harem.

asciilifeform: ( maybe they were picked for toe-suckling amplitude..? )

asciilifeform bbl,food

Mocky: it was that or pay fiddy buks more for 12 hrs layover in turkey. turkey wasn't gonna let me out of the airport tho

Mocky: never been to London before, but from what i hear, can practice my arabic with half the population

BingoBoingo: <Mocky> got my flight booked. will be on layover at heathrow for 15hrs on oct 8th << I don't feel so bad about the 45 minutes I ended up with in Panama now

Mocky: tried to stretch it out in madrid long enough to look around but couldn't make it work

asciilifeform: Mocky: way back ? i thought yours was a 1way

a111: Logged on 2018-09-01 17:06 mircea_popescu: i figure... you get what 2 ? 3 ? months there until the first save point, see if it can be done or can't be done ?

Mocky: i'm a noob to international travel, but the whole exit visa thing seems super sketchy to me

asciilifeform: this gotta be on the arabian end, afaik usa not (yet) has sucha thing

asciilifeform: it's a pretty good proxy for 'is this place northkr yet'

asciilifeform: sorta the last notch on the dial

Mocky: yes, doesn't apply to visa on arrival which i'll be using. but if i want to stay past 60 days need some sort of business sponsor or hotel sponsor. and if use sponsor, their failure to file paperwork will prevent you from leaving

asciilifeform: interesting. do they also have a gulag where you work off said dime ?

asciilifeform: iirc dubai has this system, it is used to keep the indian janitors from jumping ship

asciilifeform: ( they have articles of indenture and such )

Mocky: seems like whole service industry is such a gulag for 1) indians 2) pakis 3) filipinos

asciilifeform: aa, nobody gets out till they mop the requisite # of floors to pay back their master for shipping'em in , a la dubai, then

asciilifeform: they have similar thing for mexicans in usa, but 100% unofficial, orcish, under the table

asciilifeform: iirc they dun bother with workhouses for defaulters, tho, straight to cement boots

Mocky: construction workers for their 2022 world cup stadii firmly in gulag, unpaid for year+, dying at a rate of 1 every 2 days, according to The Guardian ~2014 ☟︎

Mocky: if you're a woman who wants an arab man, qatar is the shit. step up on your pedestal and take your pick

asciilifeform: Mocky: wouldnt it be mostly pinoy & indian d00dz tho

asciilifeform: in the excess mass

Mocky: huge mass yes, but all the good picks still less likely to be taken, and more willing to dote over whatever can be found

diana_coman: asciilifeform, since your udp genesis is using the sha hashes + a "history" file I'm not sure: do you have something against the move to keccak + standard manifest file for v-trees?

asciilifeform: diana_coman: believe or not, i still havent switched to phf's .

asciilifeform: diana_coman: and if there was a moment in the l0gz where mircea_popescu proclaimed 'hey this is out of beta, errybody plox to retire the classical vtrons' -- i missed it? plox to link.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: but to answer the orig q -- i have nuffin against the new format; but not switched yet.

diana_coman: asciilifeform, I don't get it: are you saying you need mircea_popescu to officially declare it something or the other or what?

diana_coman: I wouldn't expect there is such a thread, no; at any rate, last discussion on this I think starts here: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832406 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 23:15 phf: considering the slow adoption of the keccak approach and also a large number of existing sha512 patches, i'm planning on doing a regrind where i merge the keccak and the sha branches together, so that vpatch/vdiff can produce both hashes on a switch, until further notice.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is how we typically do standardizations, yes ☟︎

diana_coman: the issue at hand is more simply that being sha means it will have to go through regrind at some point and so I'm not very keen on adding to it patches just to have what to regrind later; but maybe that's just me

diana_coman: uhm, wait; you mean you think it might still change and *not* be keccak? or current keccak version not surely if keccak? or...dunno, what?

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm not averse to regrinding , if diana_coman already switched ( i managed to sleep through this , somehow, but yes looks like you're in the new format )

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm satisfied that your keccak worx

a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 00:14 asciilifeform: i expect that errybody currently tuned in, will use keccak.

asciilifeform: again i had and have 0 objection to the format, or would have said.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: what's going on is that asciilifeform has buncha boxen with old tooling, and also tends to rely on mircea_popescu to proclaim 'let's nao new format'

diana_coman: asciilifeform, I know that pain, honestly; I still trip over this change and I wouldn't even say that I have as convenient a workflow with new tooling as I had with old

asciilifeform: hm why is this?

diana_coman: and I actually have both on for now, hence yeah, I just pressed your patch with old V

asciilifeform: i thought phf's was backwards-compat?

asciilifeform: but why not as convenient, i meant

diana_coman: possibly because I did not yet fully digest the new one (or not as well as old one)

asciilifeform: btw do we have a full spec for the new form posted somewhere ?

diana_coman: asciilifeform, not full as far as I'm aware; there is http://trinque.org/2018/06/02/v-manifest-specification/ re manifest

asciilifeform: diana_coman: the 1 thing that still bothers me is that same file extension was kept for new v as for old

diana_coman: asciilifeform, I can see the point given how often I went already "oh, this is /not is keccak/sha"

asciilifeform: not even speaking out of concern for heathens ( tho they do read my www and occasionally try to build the proggies ) but for tripping over own feet

diana_coman: my approach has been: try with keccak; if fails, for now at least, try with old sha-based

asciilifeform: really imho oughta switch the extension. note that this requires no regrind.

asciilifeform: i'm not averse to regrinding things, vtron that understands 2 types of hash inside 1 tree is prolly too much to ask for; but at the very least i gotta be able to distinguish old form from new by file ext., for own workflow.

asciilifeform: would also like to have (but afaik we dun have?) a mechanical converter from old to new, so that all i gotta do is re-seal

asciilifeform: hey mod6 , didja ever switch to new format in trb ? ☟︎

asciilifeform: did i also somehow sleep through this

asciilifeform: diana_coman: there's a caveat tho

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850400 << ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 16:02 asciilifeform: the only lang feature that gets in the way of this partitioning is 'generics', but iirc diana_coman did not use these anywhere

asciilifeform: it prevents full modularization, in that the restrictions that hold in the library begin to apply to the called

asciilifeform: err, caller

diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, atm I'm looking at it for the test harness, for which I think it fits great (since I wouldn't want to go writing 1-65535 explicitly if I can help it)

asciilifeform: at least this was so in the old gnat

asciilifeform: diana_coman: how did you make the receiver eat unexpected sizes ?

diana_coman: atm I'm just playing around with generic to wrap my head around it! lol; but receiver can haz max size and then report, no?

asciilifeform: you would have to make small change tho, to make it report size, mine does not ( only 'valid' , i.e. full size, or 'invalid' )

asciilifeform: can simply replace the bool param with a 'actualsize' one, for experiment

asciilifeform: diana_coman: the way i'd do the size shuffle, is to use a kindergarten prng (e.g. mersenne) for repeatable sequence, and put ~in~ the packets, a serial num. then simply record what comes out. ☟︎

asciilifeform: but prolly this was obv already

asciilifeform: ( then can clearly see, 'this one - lost', 'this - reordered', etc )

asciilifeform: and put the local time in the payload, can then measure latency in 1 direction, to the limit of clock sync

diana_coman: not a bad idea at all; at it's simplest I was thinking simply serial numbering the payloads and logging on both sides since putting together the 2 logs afterwards is straightforward, 1-line thing

asciilifeform: also worx

asciilifeform: making the run repeatable is useful imho tho.

asciilifeform: see how ~particular~ sequence goes through various paths.

asciilifeform: and will be interesting if results differ when ~direction~ is switched.

asciilifeform: i suspect that the experiment could expose backbone diddlage..

diana_coman: anyways, will wait for mircea_popescu to weigh in on this too; atm I still need to set up the main stuff and then those are params to adjust/set as required

asciilifeform: will also be interesting if results are found to differ when one end is in mircea_popescustan, etc

asciilifeform: ( and i'd like to try from here, also )

diana_coman: once it's ready, I'll publish it anyway and I don't see any reason why one couldn't run it anywhere they want it, ofc

asciilifeform: i also suspect that results will differ when 1 box is behind a konsoomer nat thing, vs. when both ends are 'adult' (naked ipv4)

asciilifeform: ( observe that it is actually impossible to do the thing if both are inside nat )

asciilifeform: unless of course both inside ~same~ nat ( i.e. on 1 lan )

asciilifeform: !Q later tell BingoBoingo crate has sat in montevideo customs for third day nao, and still no word from either dhl or orcs. possibly go there an' see ?

asciilifeform: hm, bot dead ?

mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851602 << No, haven't done anything as of yet. Still using SHA512 and my vtron. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 13:04 asciilifeform: hey mod6 , didja ever switch to new format in trb ?

mod6: To me, I'd like to see just one trb-vtree, one set of patches. And if that means moving to keccac, then we will, and that'll be the only set of vpatches that The Foundation will distribute. (Otherwise I think it's too confusing, and time consuming to publish future vpatches in both.)

mod6: Before we embark on an entire regrind of the trb-vtree to use keccac, I think we just need a major release version of a "defacto" vtron that supports both SHA512 (for other legacy projects) and keccac. Sounds like phf's might fit the bill, but want to ensure that when the Foundation tackles this problem, it's on very stable footing. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mod6: imho this would be ideal, yes

diana_coman: fwiw I was talking strictly of *new* stuff for now; notice that I did *not* regrind eucrypt either - that can wait; new stuff however should use keccak imo

asciilifeform: i dun even disagree with mircea_popescu's 'if it's still alive, it oughta be reground' item. but at the very least oughta be able to read the old trees with new tool and determine that somebody's regrind is actually bit-identical to the original, without burning several days per instance

asciilifeform: diana_coman: entirely fair point. i simply dun have the new one in my workflow yet, is all

asciilifeform: but will note, the situation where i gotta keep multiple vtrons around, one for this-here, one for that-there, ( ftr i've been using my orig since aug '15 ) is imho suboptimal.

asciilifeform: and the thing where both types of patch have same extension and are not visually distinguishable, is intolerable.

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They called me, going to their office. Some bullshit about "personas fisicas" and already having two imports.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lemme know how it goes. this is 1st time i hear of any such thing re 'can only have 2 imports'

BingoBoingo: I was under the impression that there is a limit of 3 tax free imports under $200, which should not be relevant considering there's an import deposit

asciilifeform: aha, we paid the orc tax !

asciilifeform: >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850424 << ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 16:42 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mod6 , ben_vulpes : ordered ! 308.28 orcbux ( 62.18 of'em orc fee, 37.21 -- postage, the rest -- 8 drives and pack of 20 adhesive hedgehogs )

asciilifeform: wtf is even the point of lulazon collecting it, if result is exactly same as if i mailed the crate myself

asciilifeform: betcha if i'd mailed'em wrapped in old newspaper in a standard letter envelope, you'd already have'em, and we could be fiddybux richer. ☟︎

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i suspect that lulazon simply pockets that 62.18, and the orcs never see it; or alternatively, an orc pockets, off-record, and then pretends 'was 1 of 2 max free imports'

asciilifeform: how the fuck else would $crate count as 'free'

asciilifeform: and for that matter the previous 2 crates.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i like the new v format, but i also very strongly wish to avoid coming to resemble the urbit people, with their 'aah we restarted the universe for the 7th time' ☟︎

asciilifeform: if new vtron allows mechanical preservation of ~continuity~ , i.e. i can determine mechanically that a reground tree is in fact same as the old but-for-the-hashes, then all is ok. but if not, this'd be essentially same as throwing past 3rs of historicity away. ☟︎☟︎

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, I am still waiting on a birthday card from February sent through the post ☟︎

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: troo

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: go an' hassle'em

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: note, all 3 crates, has the deposit paid !

asciilifeform: where did it ~go~ ?!

BingoBoingo: Pull the invoice off of the Amazon orders page and get it to me. I want to show the fuckers the line for the import tax deposit.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: pdf worx ?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/uYG9Z/?raw=true

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: do me a favour and cut out my orig postage addr before handing these to orcs

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851642 << btw mod6 , diana_coman , one possible cut of the knot would be if new vtron were to have algo where it tries keccak 1st, then if fails, tries sha512 and ~loudly warns~ ( can be off by default , and enabled on cmdline ) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 14:42 mod6: Before we embark on an entire regrind of the trb-vtree to use keccac, I think we just need a major release version of a "defacto" vtron that supports both SHA512 (for other legacy projects) and keccac. Sounds like phf's might fit the bill, but want to ensure that when the Foundation tackles this problem, it's on very stable footing.

asciilifeform: ( my current understanding is that errything ~else~ in vpatch format, remained same ? )

asciilifeform: there is the manifest, but afaik it doesn't get machine-parsed

asciilifeform: phf: plox to correct me if i'm wrong here

asciilifeform: unrelatedly, am i the only one who reads these, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851562 ? some of these have atrocious mistakes, e.g. 'flashing the uboot with the dram from vendor did not do anything detectable' << rom, not 'dram', lol ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 08:29 deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=16 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Summary Log - 9/08/2018

asciilifeform: i did not say anyffing re 'trinque is upgrading to 486DX2 for alf', but it prolly merits a mention also.

asciilifeform: oh hey, guten morgen, mircea_popescu

asciilifeform: mod6: i dun like to discourage folx, esp. mircea_popescu's pupil, who is evidently pouring sweat into the job. but i expected the items would get better with time, and imho so far they haven't ☟︎

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so did i! point in case : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-28#1845190 so far, they haven't! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-08-28 16:51 mircea_popescu: also, a) gotta start somewhere ; b) she's not working to impress you, she's working to impress me, meaning your only productive stance is "not like that, like ~this~" rather than "your work doesn't make the cut".

mircea_popescu: this isn't going to become a monthly cycle, is it ? "i don't like this vtree" "do you have a patch ?" "no, i just don't like it" "well... come back with a patch"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma leave it there, after all the chix is yer student, not mine

mircea_popescu: i dun see a problem with criticism, but it gotta be criticism. it gotta critique. "this, specifically ~this~ is wrong" "that, exactly that, is missing". something.

asciilifeform: i'ma formulate all subsequent ones as ' s/foo/bar ', as i do for BingoBoingo

asciilifeform: simple enuff.

mircea_popescu: by all means, formulate it as "bitch, you're fucking stupid", but formulate it in some manner i can get behind.

asciilifeform: it is prolly too much to ask for kindergartener to actually grasp the contents of the academy of sciences minutes she is reading; but perhaps it is possible with help.

mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol. ☟︎☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun disagree.

mircea_popescu: and kindergarten academy of science bla bla. i have children read shakespeare and why shouldn't i.

asciilifeform: shakespeare is slightly easier, what with 500 yrs of linguists.

mircea_popescu: what, they're not gonna fucking "understand" it ?! what, really, you understand the logs ? who the fuck understands the logs!

mircea_popescu: the renoirs in "where's the renoirs" were produced through the act of "here's this cappod'opera, summarize it"

diana_coman: heh, if I'd insist my child read *only* what he understood, he couldn't possibly read ~anything!

diana_coman: all I insist on is that he either asks someone or otherwise check in dict for words he doesn't yet know

asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform reads things he dun fully understand, all day, erry day, i dun disagree.

mircea_popescu: just because i humiliate her, in this as in so many ways, she has to publish her struggle, dun mean it's somehow categorically different. erryone has piles of "this is what i understand of y"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a great experiment, and imho entirely possible that the horse will eventually learn to sing.

asciilifeform: verily.

PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851661 << wouldn't you just get the vpatch from the old and new vdiff'ers and run diff on them, the only difference should be the hashes? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:19 asciilifeform: if new vtron allows mechanical preservation of ~continuity~ , i.e. i can determine mechanically that a reground tree is in fact same as the old but-for-the-hashes, then all is ok. but if not, this'd be essentially same as throwing past 3rs of historicity away.

asciilifeform: PeterL: as i currently understand : yes. but ideally this simple mechanism would be in the tool, rather than a http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html - style shell hack.

PeterL: well, anybody interested would sign the diff-of-diffs, and then everybody switches to using the new format, no need to have it locked into the program if you are only using it once at the change over

mircea_popescu: yes, the group is yet small enough and cohesive enough we can just do a deed and stuff.

diana_coman: tbh if I were to critique her summaries I'd start pretty much from same point as with the 5yo i.e. the way they are know they read as if she doesn't actually have any idea what those terms she uses there mean even at a basic level and she doesn't even flag them as such (i.e. "hey, this afiejif wtf is it???"); to the extent that it all ends up as mechanical re-phrasing, it's quite stupid

mircea_popescu: i don't think she dares ask, partly because she spent most of her life with engineers and partly because check out how irrational the process became the moment she showed up. this not common, this, freebased cvasicriticism, in the annals.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand re the engineers point ☟︎

PeterL: it would be much more useful if the summary included a link to the relevant part of the log, so that if an item is of interest one could read more detail

mircea_popescu: but yes, on spotcheck she could produce long form of ftp and deduce long form for isp out of "- mircea_popescu suspects that iptables is like php implementation of ftp - most people do not have their own isp"

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the girl's own words, "only interested in their being right".

asciilifeform: ah this must be different species of engineer than what asciilifeform grew up with..

mircea_popescu: this seems even perfectly reasonable, who wouldn't want to be right, until you understand the undertone. which eminently was "and perfectly willing to put on the adequate blinders for this effect"

asciilifeform: rarest skill is -- to teach, rather 'be right'

asciilifeform: sorta how anybody can butcher, but not errybody -- surgeon with 'bedside manner'

mircea_popescu: her job historically was to keep overgrown idiots from running head first into bureaucratic machinery./

asciilifeform: *rather than

diana_coman: mircea_popescu> asciilifeform in the girl's own words, "only interested in their being right". -> is this re her summaries being right or what?

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 16:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand re the engineers point

asciilifeform: hmm i thought nicoleci is self-voicing

asciilifeform: !!gettrust nicoleci

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform normally ; her key machine is currently without a working nic because no cable and no working wifi.

asciilifeform: !!rate nicoleci 1 mircea_popescu's pupil; log summaries

asciilifeform: !!v 8B2E390E09066888A82E6901A1FA657A87826C4885C77E1EA157E008DC529922

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah

asciilifeform: how did it happen, i cant resist to ask ? hanbot's duck ate cable ?

asciilifeform: lol! severe cage, this

diana_coman: <mircea_popescu> this seems even perfectly reasonable, who wouldn't want to be right, until you understand the undertone. which eminently was "and perfectly willing to put on the adequate blinders for this effect" -> imo that is better expressed as "only interested in not being wrong" - quite different from being interested in being right

asciilifeform: at least give the poor critter a rs232 SLIP!111

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've toiled in cages where even gsm barely penetrated, not even speaking of cables, so i can picture.

asciilifeform: what's she logged in with nao, i wonder, morse key ?

asciilifeform: i'd give a morse key.

mircea_popescu: nicoleci PeterL has a point : start adding a log link to the summary lines, so people can look further if they want.

asciilifeform: tidididididadadda...

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-25#643502 << oblig ☝︎

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'd say this formulation describes bureaucrat, not engineer, but yes i am aware that they've recently hybridized into a strange mule species, bureau-engineer

asciilifeform: not without a working time machine, right

asciilifeform tried (and failed spectacularly) over recent yrs , in various contexts, to hire 'actual engineer'

mircea_popescu: it is the regular shock of everyone here that everyone else here exists. prolly should be the topic, really.

asciilifeform: lol!! that very same chromebook ??

asciilifeform: i.e. stock c101?

asciilifeform: there's 9000...

asciilifeform: but it'd be extra lulzy if mircea_popescu had given nicoleci that one

asciilifeform: i'm almost surprised that even webirc worx on that thing

asciilifeform: it's the tightest cage short of, idk, a vt100

asciilifeform: it used to be this profession, y'know, like bakers, butchers

mircea_popescu: nicoleci in the classical formulation, at a time when scottish-english rivalry was a poignant affair, respectable middleclass scot was depicted sitting in his tea chair with the newspaper, and reading about a linconlshire rapist and murderer

mircea_popescu: the next day, same man, same chair, newspaper tells tale of this wolverhampton rapist murderer arsonist & jaiwalker

mircea_popescu: meh, wolverhampton is actually in the midlands. whatever, switch in london and edinburgh, the point is -- one always has a further mind into which to retreat & even nobler suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

asciilifeform: still seems to me that at one time there were engineers. built such things as 'great eastern' steamer etc.

mircea_popescu: you know they propped the great railroad on top of snow and it collapsed ?

asciilifeform: aand in less time than costs today to get next model of toyota.

asciilifeform: rright and at one time surgeons spread peripueral fever erry day. but mircea_popescu for some reason does not say 'there never were surgeons, never quite got there'

mircea_popescu: engineering never was an honest profession. much like medicine. it always wanted to be, and most of the time very earnestly tried to be. but it never actuially made it ; not at the time of the organixcally-multilayer-compensated grandfather clocks, not at the time of steam engine, not at the time of tanks and planes, not at any one time.

asciilifeform: then agreed.

asciilifeform: entirely similar.

mircea_popescu: understand how professional medicine is : i am myself, and this fellow is a most eminent specialist in his field, with decades of practice in the us, and in his entire being as perfectly intellectually respectable as i could ever ask for.

mircea_popescu: we talk about a pain. i go in with one idea, he examines and has a different idea. the quality of his examination is such that i yield in the process, and gladly. look that indeed, clinical practice does something, it's evident he's got a better scent than i had.

nicoleci: so what would you call the people who made the grandfather clocks, steam engine.. etc?

mircea_popescu: engineers. which, you have to understand, is an import from french, where it meant "ingenuity-ist"

mircea_popescu: and this at a time when the major problem of the french was the resurection of socrates' daimon, "the genius in things"

asciilifeform: i suspect if baking were an affair where ~erry~ yeast cell gotta agree, or nuffin happens , or at the very least a horror in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703881 , would resemble the engineer's toil ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:29 asciilifeform: kanzure: i and ~50 other folx, lost jobs, because it proved ~impossible to persistently force $valuableprotein secretion in ecoli

mircea_popescu: there was never a time ingenuity, specifically as this almost-endearing-often-infuriating-wilful-blindness was never part of the term.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that the 'blinders' are to some extent an immutable cost of the process, required for the directed thrust at $problem. sorta how knife is only sharp on 1 , at most 2 edges

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform entirely possible. but the whole art then becomes : "how not to fuck onself over while in trance".

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also suspect that this is why it requires at least 2 people. sorta how sniper worx 9000x better in pair with spotter.

asciilifeform: for n00bz, sniper has naked eyes + his scope thing, shows a coupla of degrees of far-away place, head-sized; spotter has naked eyes + telescope and isn't holding 8kg of hand cannon, can move around a bit moar

asciilifeform: the pathology of current-day shit-engineering is imho twofold -- bureaucrats reacted to quack engineers, with poor upbringing, who 'i dun need no stinkin' spotter' by creating hybrid species , bureau-engineer, who 'i dun need no stinkin' book-larnin', i watched 'intro to rails' film' etc

asciilifeform: resulting chimera is neither fish nor fowl, has all of the 'self-blessing' cocksureness of a general, and ~none of the technical ability of the old engineer, and somehow asked to fill in for both

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: expand?

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: DHL's line at the level I engaged them so far is "Personas fisicas" get 2 dispatched "compras de exterior" paying tax and all that. In spite of more than two already making it through thus far DHL's niggers are stuck on this. But there's another level of insanity to this retardation.

BingoBoingo: "personas fisicas" also get to make THREE compras de exterior without taxes provided they are under 200 U$S and 20 kilos which can be tracked here https://aplicaciones.aduanas.gub.uy/LuciapubX/DECLARACIONES.Cargas.HWCantEncPostales.aspx and only shows an incoming test parcel I've got inbound.

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Right, which means the next task is finding someone in DHL who can understand that. That I am a BUSINESS, man.

mircea_popescu: well is your business registered and the name on the packaging ? if no, then no.

mircea_popescu: but the feeble mercantilism attempts they implement can't possibly apply to non-yokels, wtf.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851574 << there was a whole thread about wtf, stop with the sha already, yes. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 12:34 asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is how we typically do standardizations, yes

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: canhaz link to 'hey folx, phf's vtron out of beta, let's regrind trb etc nao' ?

a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 00:05 mircea_popescu: keccak came out of that. it's all in the logs.

a111: Logged on 2018-03-25 19:40 mircea_popescu: follow the mainline. whole fucking point is to move vpatching to keccak mechanism. don't genesis on the old style why would you.

asciilifeform: i'm 100% in favour, so long as can use new file extension and not trip over own old patches. ( afaik phf's tool does not marry .vdiff string hardcodedly ? )

asciilifeform: even ok with regrinding the udp piece

asciilifeform: given as its 2d old

mircea_popescu: but yes -- the idea very sharply is : use keccak for new work ; whenever have the time and inclination move old work to keccak tree also.

mircea_popescu: now as to new extensions... imo bad idea. there's manifests and things now. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right now asciilifeform , diana_coman , errybody, has buncha vdiff laying around, not only on www but on own disks, and serious problem if gotta stab at it by hand erry time to see which it is. ☟︎

asciilifeform: nope, often gets reset when copied via net

mircea_popescu: i currently dun know a pill for this ; but no new extensions, it's a terrible move.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 1 other pill i was able to think of , was http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851674 , but i dun expect you'll find it much better ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:32 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851642 << btw mod6 , diana_coman , one possible cut of the knot would be if new vtron were to have algo where it tries keccak 1st, then if fails, tries sha512 and ~loudly warns~ ( can be off by default , and enabled on cmdline )

mircea_popescu: no, afaik this is ~what we came to in discussion with phf re support last.

asciilifeform: oh hm was it

asciilifeform: so this is in the current tool ?

asciilifeform: i'ma let phf clarify, otherwise it'll have to wait until i have a free hand and read his item properly, might be coupla days

asciilifeform: unless diana_coman or mod6 remembers

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand re why dun like 'new extension', e.g. '.v'

asciilifeform: it's already fragged, neh

asciilifeform: already hindered in this way, tho, as cost of making the switch

asciilifeform: imho not being able to tell the 2 formats apart externally is ~moar~ pain

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851696 << "granpa, why is this extension 75 characters long ?" "well see sonny boy, back in the day of planet earth they decided to keep changing it, and well... time passed, and wel... you now must type 75 characters of history you don't know" ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 16:22 mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol.

phf: asciilifeform: the approach that came out of last thread was "explicit flag", i.e. -t sha/keccak, but attempting to hash both then choosing one if one succeeds or bail as you suggested is not bad, though dwimy

phf: mircea_popescu: no i think he's saying "try to hash in both formats and then make a guess if one of the formats succeed"

asciilifeform: btw if operator has option of enabling 'try sha', can make keccak continuations of old tree, without regrinds

asciilifeform: (until reground)

asciilifeform: e.g. i can put out ch12 of ffa on keccak.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no new state machine needed

asciilifeform: srsly, exactly same logic as in existing vtron, with the exception of 'when hashing, try keccak 1st, then sha, THEN compare equality, if found to be the latter, warn user, and if sha not enabled, eggog'

phf: asciilifeform: please to clarify, do you mean that you can say run "./vpatch < foo" and if that fails you run it as "./vpatch -t sha < foo". or are you saying "./vpatch < foo" and it attempts to, internally, first keccak then sha?

asciilifeform: phf: no, per hash invocation. but loox like mircea_popescu dun like this method, would rather have the trees reground sooner than later.

asciilifeform: ergo i'd like to make the operation mechanical, to the extent is reasonable.

asciilifeform: where the machine bakes 'same tree, new hash algo' and errything else is bitwise-same, then i go an' unsheath launch coads, and bake new seals.

asciilifeform: i put 9000 hrs into reading trb, i do not have these 9000 to do it exactly same again nao.

mircea_popescu: this is conceivably a useful tool, but imo not properly thought of as "vtron".

asciilifeform: oughta be same procedure as http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html , but in the tool, imho.

mircea_popescu: vcompare, takes sha tree and keccak tree, and certifies whether same tree or not same tree.

asciilifeform: a new operator ( no , i dun think we've seen the last of new sane folx, tho mircea_popescu may disagree ) oughta be in possession of the complete kit when he sets up his vtron.

asciilifeform: which complete kit oughta be able to follow the continuity of e.g. trb to day1.

mircea_popescu: i always suspected alf wants to write this for himself by himself lest corruption ; but nothing wrong with published imago.

asciilifeform: even if with some hand work.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i long ago gave up trying to maintain 'the one and only vtron' lol

asciilifeform: hence mod6 et al

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you're saying this compare should be a flag in vtron, whereby it takes a sha and a keccak tree and spits out yes/no ?

asciilifeform: my orig. worked for 3yrs nao in my own hands, but had obvious limitations, and i did not expect it'd live 4evah

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct.

asciilifeform: and can produce a keccak tree from a sha tree, with the exception of the seals, in such a way that i can be assured that i'm signing same material.

asciilifeform: (but for the hashes)

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would IT do that ? you just purge the patches, hash and sign, and then have it verify

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right, purge, but 1st gotta make new ones, that are known to contain same material

asciilifeform: i can do it with shell ( as quoted from trb experiment list earlier ) easily enuff. but there is also the ~reader~ side, who wants to verify continuity.

asciilifeform: e.g. mod6 .

asciilifeform: or even entirely new people, should some be birthed.

phf: mircea_popescu: i have a set of tools like that on top of vpatch/vdiff, but they are entirely expressable as a 5-10 line shell scripts, and their variety is multitude "convert this sha set to keccak set" "see if these two sets press to same" "press all the intermediate states into separate folders" etc. etc. but i think what he's trying to get is a tool that will say "these keccaks are same as these shas so you don't have to reread"

mircea_popescu: what do you mean "make new ones" ? http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks << to replace "- D49E7AAAB38507FD69E6629B8BAAE80BC87D2071C842C8EDE6F2D8E54F87E7D439C79B9A38AD94591E6FD5CF96196F2221426A4C8A2FFB282030FBCF810C18FB

mircea_popescu: + E76829B2488665287ED6037EAA5DD4651A67DDC9A44111089F55249248B6549387B9146BB1E51CC5A659558805BCF8987C10ECAD8478F83FC5EB165044AC5D3C" with w/e keccak says, you mean ?

mircea_popescu: phf i honestly thought ~everyone with half hour's interest does have the ~same dozen lines of bash, and so neve rsaid a word of it. i dunno why he doesn't.

mircea_popescu: but the point is : given a sha tree, the operator thereby produces the keccak tree, and then the tool verifies these are the same, and there you go.

mircea_popescu: why would i have baked into vtron something that a) is unlikely to ever be used again, past this year and b) works much better in bash anyway and is rather trivial to do

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 13:14 asciilifeform: diana_coman: the way i'd do the size shuffle, is to use a kindergarten prng (e.g. mersenne) for repeatable sequence, and put ~in~ the packets, a serial num. then simply record what comes out.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd be entirely satisfied if it were a separate util, that came 'with' vtron, also.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm quite looking forward to learning the answer to 'how big packet'

asciilifeform: ( all i got so far is dusty tomes & hearsay , re subj )

asciilifeform: also will be hilarious to expose backbone ticklings.

mircea_popescu: provided of course personas fisicas de republica oriental can receive more than 2 packets a year.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i admit i was surprised to have been able to mail ~anyffing~ there, knew there gotta be a catch

asciilifeform: initially worked on assumption that no mail at all.

asciilifeform: loox like mircea_popescu's old observation 'they wanna tax, not prohibit commerce' was optimistic tho. the orcs ~want~ to die

mircea_popescu: what i meant by "mercantilism" is that they do not want the locals to leak dollars back into the ubers of the world. ☟︎

asciilifeform: right, makes sense

asciilifeform: sorta su-like dynamic

phf: as BingoBoingo continues living in orcland and his subtle mannerisms lose the imperial edge the locals no longer perceive him as a white sahib, soon attempt to "back to work, nigger" him

asciilifeform: possib

asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform was able to make use of 'sahib' dynamic to get crates through orc customs

asciilifeform: 'i represent $corp ! will call home, there will be problems '

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 03:11 Mocky: construction workers for their 2022 world cup stadii firmly in gulag, unpaid for year+, dying at a rate of 1 every 2 days, according to The Guardian ~2014

BingoBoingo: Anyways, looks like the rest of this week is finding out how the plasticrap makes it in

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: via Officially blessed channels, i'd expect

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: didja ever ask that shop keeper ?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: also plox to clarify, at this point is the disk crate a total loss ?

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:11 asciilifeform: betcha if i'd mailed'em wrapped in old newspaper in a standard letter envelope, you'd already have'em, and we could be fiddybux richer.

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: also plox to clarify, at this point is the disk crate a total loss ? Will hopefully find out by Friday or Monday.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: further below in l0gz, is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851662 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:20 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, I am still waiting on a birthday card from February sent through the post

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: didja ever ask that shop keeper ? << Their answer was sufficiently vague as to be useless

asciilifeform: uboat delivery, when!11

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851661 << this principle is perfectly sound, nobody wants "throw away"/ ☝︎

asciilifeform: rright, was whole substance of thread. asciilifeform is not in luvv with sha, does not yearn to use it 4evah

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, small & thereby entirely undetectable surfaceboat (like the us army troop transporters, back in the day there was such a thing as an us army or troops) would prolly work perfectly well.

mircea_popescu: hitch two jerrycans together, one with the fuel, the other with the engine navigation and payload, and w/e, two weeks to port.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the columbian folx are at the forefront, as i understand, of this tech.

asciilifeform: but they have the turnover to support the fixed costs, and we not yet

asciilifeform: if they're butt, who then front, i'm curious

asciilifeform: or is this one of those 2-arsed beasts

phf: a plus of this approach is that asciilifeform will be able to live out his boat life fantasy

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall the 'battery for flying 10kg to buenos aires' thread btw

asciilifeform: phf: human pilot is insanity

asciilifeform: arithmetic still worx on it tho

asciilifeform: potentially could answer, 'how', 'with what'

asciilifeform: if we had the hands that are skilled in this, we wouldn't be having the thread nao, would we.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even for robotic ship, i suspect electric wins, with e.g. pv panels can have ~unlimited endurance, and quiet.

asciilifeform: ( so what if 'can take 2wks, can take 3, depending on currents', sun still shines )

mircea_popescu: diesel is 10MW/kg. this means that 1 jerrycan of diesel can take two jerrycans however far 7500 miles or so.

asciilifeform: diesel can also be heard from 20km, tho

asciilifeform: gift for usg.

mircea_popescu: yeah right. a gift like season tickets for baseball are a gift. "here's a gift that will take 5k in bills to '''enjoy'''".

asciilifeform: erry ~week they find, neh, some schmuck with cocayacht

asciilifeform: ( fwiw i have nfi how many not-find, is q above asciilifeform's paygrade )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i.e. ~torpedo ?

mircea_popescu: understand : "standard" yacht, say a 33 foot boat, has ~5ton displacement, and its tank (150-200 liters) will take it say maybe 300 miles if driven 6-7 knots in calm weather.

asciilifeform does not have the naval-fu to say whether this scales down linearly

asciilifeform: for the sake of gedankenexperiment : mircea_popescu how would you keep the air intake out of water in a 'surface torpedo' ?

asciilifeform: afaik there's a reason why torpedoes carry own oxidizer in all cases

asciilifeform: it takes 1 gulp of ocean, and engine is done

asciilifeform: right but gotta keep water out of all of'em

asciilifeform: or am i missing something

asciilifeform: they're sucking, tho

asciilifeform: and 2m (sop) wave, all 4 submerged ? then what

asciilifeform: so needs diesel that can self-dehydrate ?

asciilifeform: would be killer item, as i understand lotsa yachters would buy

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the reason this doesn't work for the 40 foot planing yacht twin engine turbo bla bla, is because engine is fucking large.

asciilifeform: i can think of several possible ways to make such a diesel, but afaik no such thing presently exists off-shelf, would have to make.

mircea_popescu: the tiny thing here discussed, a) can be easily stopped and b) the suckage isn't of the nature of golfball-through-virginasshole./

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hence my "niggers nigger rig" comment. they don't have the clue to make what they need.

asciilifeform: rright, but diesels as i know'em still gotta be dry in order to start again.

asciilifeform: and dun enjoy salt.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: valves ?

asciilifeform can picture valves, and compressed air tank as 'buffer'

PeterL: just go to small scale nuclear reactor and then you don't need air, can just run under the water

asciilifeform: PeterL: even pre-nukes, '40s jp navy has peroxide sub.

asciilifeform: it is possible to have closed cycle engine, on (reasonably) cheap.

mircea_popescu: anyway, you'll have to figure out a buoyancy thing anyway. whyt the fuck use ballast, when could use airtank. etc.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: airtank as ballast already classic, in ordinary torpedo.

mircea_popescu: the other thing is of course speed. you, you're happy with 1 knot. the reason "modern yacht" has massively oversized engine and undersized tanks is because water is like molasses, and modern man is a premature ejaculotor. GOTTA QUICK!!!

mircea_popescu: "but mp, 1knot is booooring" "you know, the fish over there is the same fish as over here"

asciilifeform: hence orig suggestion of electrics+pv

asciilifeform: fish speed.

asciilifeform: and no tanks.

asciilifeform: electrics -- scale down to ~microscopic. who didn't have a toy submarine as a boy.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is solvable , with properly oversized panel.

asciilifeform: receiving end -- cleans it.

asciilifeform: it's 1 of the few potentially sane use cases for pv.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you wouldn't put a single crystal panel to sea, lol. segments joined by rubber.

mircea_popescu: the sea eats rubber. i hear that's why they don't have the toyota submerged cities yet.

asciilifeform: and errything breaks one day.

asciilifeform: q is whether it could survive a coupla trips.

asciilifeform: i suspect that such a machine could be built.

asciilifeform: which english thing

asciilifeform: what would anchor on a 50kg torpedo look like ?

asciilifeform: so, keeps station ?

asciilifeform: how does receiver find it ?

asciilifeform: i.e. it beacons ?

asciilifeform: what's to keep enemy from going to the beacon ?

asciilifeform: i suspect that you'd get coupla sq. km. radius to search.

mircea_popescu: "i'm confused now... was the pink one your dildos and the gray one my books ?" "shit man... " "ok let's drop them overboard see which way they go again"

asciilifeform: back when su spy sats dropped film bottles, they still had ( reluctantly, as it is just as asinine as it sounds ) beacons, because otherwise ~0 chance of find. even from chopper.

PeterL: how about thing is equipped to receive signal, you send out proper code and your location, it finds you

asciilifeform: at any rate i suspect that the problem is not wholly engineering problem, in the sense where, yes usg torpedo (for piddling 100km range) costs $mil, a ru torpedo -- $100k, but afaik nobody's built a $1 or even $10k thing-that-sails-8000km , in which to economically carry $1k of cargo

mircea_popescu: why should it be programmable ? what, no p.bvulpes where these people live ?

phf: asciilifeform: even modern amateur launches rely on beacons, but design considered is very similar to my glider: once released avoinics' only concern is to aim for a particular gps coordinate, no "sq km. radius" involved, depending on the range of banking maneuvers to within <5m

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this item would cost about 10k or so i guess, and it'd carry maybe 10kg or 10 liters of cargo, whichever smallest.

asciilifeform: phf: gliders don't get moved when landed by currents.

mircea_popescu: this is not econoimical today, BUT because tanker takes 1 cent per ton to d othat distance

phf: asciilifeform: there's no "landed" in your scenario, continuous adjustment towards coordinates until picked up

mircea_popescu: it WOULD be economical if one actually aimed to collect your "i am being fucked for $100 bux on 100g"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm 100% sold that one ~could~ build. would 1st have to devise a 50kg diesel, i've never seen one, even aside from the matter of water etc

mircea_popescu: ie, one of these miniboats would be looking at 20k per trip. the gasoline is ~40

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: gotta factor in % of lost vessels + cargo, like the satellite people do, however

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc the "small engine" item is recurrent in logs. prolly will end up in the worklists before foundry too

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i lost your cargo would you cry more than if the orcs steal it like they apparently well might've ?

asciilifeform: small engines , to date, suffer re efficiency. sorta why tanker is sop today, vs fleet of sloops

asciilifeform: but asciilifeform is not domain expert, will not presume to go into depth

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu; currently orcs steal 300 $ of hdd, rather than $10k of hdd + $20k of torpedo..

asciilifeform: correct. ( tho in addition to 'orcs steal', we add 'poseidon steals' )

mircea_popescu: anyway, the small float is safe thing : the ship that lost 10mn bathroom rubber ducklings at sea resulted in rubber ducklings amfibious landings

asciilifeform: landed at ~destination~ ??

asciilifeform: how wouldja like if you were mailing parcel and post answered 'hey, it went ~somewhere~' lol

mircea_popescu: the point here discussed was material strength and ocean stress interaction, and why there's two solutions to the equation : large AND small

asciilifeform: i'm 100% sold that 'small' is possible, but not 100% convinced that with diesel.

asciilifeform: su tried for ~70yrs to make ~flyable~ (i.e. <100kg) diesel, failed.

asciilifeform: 10x smaller efficiency.

asciilifeform: 10x bigger tank.

asciilifeform: and then talking about a 500kg torpedo.

asciilifeform: i'd describe this as 'open problem', rather than 'physical impossibility' tho. conceivably a material exists out of which can be made 50kg diesel.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure i got one of these here, grass cutter. air cooled tho, and even in cool air not happy to run for weeks at time

asciilifeform: right

mircea_popescu: MUCH colder. no ship ever has cooling problems for engine. cools through mounts.

asciilifeform: would be interesting to at least compute what can be had from genset engine

asciilifeform: ( how many kw, for how long , on $tank )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand cooling in ship is entirely different headache, how to keep salt from eating the exchanger

asciilifeform pictures genset submerged in oil and welded into bottle

asciilifeform: 'wet exhaust' apparatus for the tailpipe.

asciilifeform: btw the columbians, as far as is known to asciilifeform , use standard gensets for power plant, and electric outboard for motile.

asciilifeform: that very same honda, iirc.

asciilifeform: ( the publicly exposed examples, iirc carried 2, 1 spare )

asciilifeform: moar like '20s 'tank', where they welded sheets on vans

asciilifeform: there's at least 1 public example of a ~papier-mache item.

asciilifeform: btw 2 small motors that cannot do 100%-dutycycle, can be entirely legit replacement for one of 2x mass (and 5x cost) that could

asciilifeform: supposing one has mechanism for switching.

asciilifeform: incidentally re 'salmon goes fast enuff if yer patient!11' item: in asciilifeform's crackpot files, there is a gedankenexperiment, simplest possible sea propulsion, with 0 exposure of moving parts to salt : picture hermetically sealed 'bottle' with... gyroscope

asciilifeform: in gimbal. as in old icbm navigator. with the diff that its purpose is specifically to resist motion in the 'undesired' direction.

asciilifeform: potentially could have 'self-guiding message in bottle' this way, in coupla months would even get somewhere near where intended...

asciilifeform: al schwartz at one time was into 'messages in bottles' , dropped in various spots from airplanes, tracked receipt ( many folx actually mailed in ! the postcard ). i suggested this variation to him.

asciilifeform: you power the gyro with the motion of the thing itself, in waves, a la japanese wristwatch.

asciilifeform: $100 transcontinentator...

asciilifeform: champagne bottle.

asciilifeform: ( exercise for reader : compute the minimal necessary counter-force that gyro in a 5kg bottle must exert , to eventually converge on destination... )

asciilifeform: i also suggested to schwartz to place mesh radio in the bottles, but thread went nowhere.

asciilifeform: afaik the principal boojum that puts this in the 'prolly not happening' , is that ocean is not 'random', has strong currents.

asciilifeform: ww2 jp accomplished however a similarly improbable feat, with 50kg ~balloons~, which had simple 'music box' mechanism that only knew how to drop ballast and vent gas, so as to get into- and out- of current.

asciilifeform: so conceivably applicable to water.

asciilifeform: !#s jp balloon

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-28#1076087 << thread. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2015-03-28 03:03 asciilifeform: for those who insist on balloons, at least study the state of the art: http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/41791.html/fusen-bakudan-balloon-bomb

asciilifeform: ( balloons per se are prolly not interesting from pov of this application, but same principle could be usable in water )

PeterL: have we already explored small dirigible with pv panels on top and electric motor?

asciilifeform: ahahahaha BingoBoingo , loox like they finally http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-03#1577246 him ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-03 04:37 asciilifeform: did they put the d00d who was picked up for 'child pr0n' the day he demonstrated the glock-on-quadcopter ?

asciilifeform: PeterL: dirigibles, balloons, etc. of practically useful size, suck, radar profile

asciilifeform: even goatfuckistans have ww2-style radar.

asciilifeform: ( even supposing they didn't -- the place from which hypothetical box originates, definitely does )

asciilifeform: btw ftr i suspect that the wilson d00d wasn't nailed for 'distibuting evil schematics', they're ~useless as is, but for refusing to sabotage'em and play gapon for usg

asciilifeform: and ditto the other fella

asciilifeform: or even as mundane as refusal to play 'death ray seller' stooge role in $provocation-of-the-day ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: i.e. 'wouldn't turn asset'

asciilifeform: nicoleci: couldja plz make the links -- clickable

asciilifeform: ( imho they also oughta be to something other than Framedragger's logtron, which i suspect is not long to live ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: mats: perhaps not enuff of trap

asciilifeform: mats: and the moar recent items not '3d printed', d00d sold a little cnc milling thing

asciilifeform: it dun make barrels, only the back half of piece, but in usa barrels are sold openly

asciilifeform: ( ancient -- 1920s? -- laws, never cancelled, consider 'receiver' to be the usg-controlled item )

asciilifeform: !!up nicoleci

nicoleci: asciilifeform: thanks - working on it now :) i wasnt sure how the links would show in the post

asciilifeform: ( for n00bz/non-aficionados -- 'receiver' is the part between stock and barrel, roughly )

asciilifeform: excluding ( again, per usg customs, can't speak for the phree world ) the bolt.

asciilifeform: kalash receiver can and has been made from shovel.

asciilifeform: ( as i understand, will be contraband in usg reich unless Officially blessed )

asciilifeform: nicoleci: (possibly you already know, from reading l0gz) Framedragger was a briefly-productive fella who walked off into the desert coupla yrs ago; his www is (for nao) alive.

asciilifeform: perhaps he paid for the hoster in advance, or whoknows, still tuned in quietly, but not known to me which.

asciilifeform: similar situation to mike_c's wot viewer, which stayed alive for coupla yrs after he expired.

nicoleci: asciilifeform: interesting and no i have not yet come across any references to framedragger

asciilifeform: phf: afaik latest, yes

asciilifeform: !!up nicoleci

asciilifeform: !#s from:Framedragger_

asciilifeform: !#s from:Framedragger

asciilifeform: nicoleci: ^ subj. http://log.mkj.lt is/was his logtron.

asciilifeform: in coupla wks will be whole yr since last seen alive.

asciilifeform: phf: -cross is the build-for-arm64-on-pc but you prolly already knew this.

asciilifeform: phf: i followed the recipe on ave1's site, lol

asciilifeform: http://ave1.org/tarpit/readme-2018-06-01.txt << subj

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: IIrc, Cody's first dance was single shot plastic thing that required a 10 penny nail for the firing pin

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: right, but he eventually retooled and went to the obvious sane thing, cnc kit

asciilifeform: ( prior to this i had him pegged as cheap provocateur )

asciilifeform: for all i know, ~was~ cheap provocateur, but 'went off reservation', whoknows

asciilifeform: some % of the recent schematics, are for proper ironwork.

asciilifeform: ( none of which constitutes a mega-seekrit, any competent smith can make kalash. wilson's thing was different, n00b assembles 100% unpoliced cnc box, tabletop, from kit, and then loads in ingot and proggy )

BingoBoingo: Hard to say if all of USG.blue's hands are that coordinated. Could have been a hit by some activist group

asciilifeform: fwiw i have nfi whether it worked, but the fact that barrel is not part of the scheme means that no serious metallurgy needed, untempered steel worx ok for receiver

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dun distinguish in my mind 'activists' from other usg

BingoBoingo: The did go through all of trouble of fishing him with a sex worker instead of loading his drive up with pr0nz

asciilifeform: good % of the reich moving parts consist of 'ngo' as it is.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: reich takes typically path of least resistance.

asciilifeform: if d00d did not frequent whorehouse, theyd've given him some other 'mortal sin'.

asciilifeform: chances are, i won't find out which one it'd have been till i go to the woodchipper myself.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i've nfi whether i have months , or years, but pretty sure that not likely decade. the only thing i presently know re the reich reaper, is that idjit reddit 'activism' substantially shortens life expectancy. hence 'stars' like wilson et al. ☟︎

asciilifeform: as soon as i learn to live on mice -- then .

asciilifeform: for coupla months, and with 9000 safehouses, yes

asciilifeform: iirc he wasn't trying to also write proggies tho.

BingoBoingo: Anyways going into my fridge I've got "Hidago de Pollo" which runs 131 pesos to the kilo and "Corazon de Pollo" which runs 120 pesos to the kilo

asciilifeform misread as 'hidalgo de pollo', lolled ☟︎

asciilifeform bbl,meat

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 19:57 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/ghost-gunner-guy-hit-with-child-sex-charges-after-allegely-paying-sex-worker-for-hotel-sex/ << Qntra - Ghost Gunner Guy Hit With Child Sex Charges After Allegely Paying Sex Worker For Hotel Sex

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 20:15 asciilifeform: or even as mundane as refusal to play 'death ray seller' stooge role in $provocation-of-the-day

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 21:16 phf: asciilifeform: after failing twice i decided to read the readme lol

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 21:53 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i've nfi whether i have months , or years, but pretty sure that not likely decade. the only thing i presently know re the reich reaper, is that idjit reddit 'activism' substantially shortens life expectancy. hence 'stars' like wilson et al.

mircea_popescu: anyway, reddit activism does ~nothing, i've been fucking reddit in the ear for years, reich still busy "not noticing, and if noticing still not noticing", https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRecordCorrected/comments/4y7b33/fyi_in_addition_to_purchasing_reddit_accounts/ style ☟︎

mircea_popescu: speaking of reality distorsion fields : "Rule #1: This is a non-partisan subreddit. Rule #3: No racism/antisemitism/anti-gay comments. Rule #9: No Direct Links to Garbage Media".

mircea_popescu: straight out of the "this is not a convent but a hospital, therefore no tools nor textbooks allowed on the premises" playbook.

BingoBoingo: In other headlines that complicate family relationships: "Texas great-grandmother shoots 12-foot gator as revenge for killing mini-horse"

mircea_popescu: "In the summer of 1996, the world converged upon Atlanta for the Olympic Games. Under the protection and auspices of the regime in Washington millions of people came to celebrate the ideals of global socialism."

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1852251 << i dun happen to have a surefire (or, more pertinently, quick) plot for getting out, was all ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 23:09 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1852234 << lol, what, you decided to die there meanwhile ?

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1852253 << not errybody is firing from atomic dirigible, [insert mandatory thread] etc ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 23:10 mircea_popescu: anyway, reddit activism does ~nothing, i've been fucking reddit in the ear for years, reich still busy "not noticing, and if noticing still not noticing", https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRecordCorrected/comments/4y7b33/fyi_in_addition_to_purchasing_reddit_accounts/ style

asciilifeform: 'activists' who kick moar wasp hive than their arse can handle, have problems, i did not think this were surprising observation

asciilifeform: redditsecrets.com << lol!!

asciilifeform: reminds me of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-20#1378204 . ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-01-20 03:44 asciilifeform had 'tricks of the unix masters', old maculature crud, on his shelf as a student, and an actual greybeard saw, asked 'where is your 'tricks of the doom masters' to go next to this'

asciilifeform: wtf is 'ctr' tho

asciilifeform: 'Time for Turkey’s Fragmentation' << ahahahaha usg.dos has not enuff ukrs..?

asciilifeform: Total Spent $29,329 << what kinda lolcat is this.

asciilifeform: '...apparently the Iranians envied Russians for their despicable treatment of Armenia...' << lol , which alt-history was this ? the worldline where ru didn't (for no particular good end, might add) save the armenians from their (well-earned) http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851372 fate ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 23:28 mircea_popescu: when they bake again, it's gonna be "because the world is mean and CERTAINLY not because http://trilema.com/2013/the-dead-jew-and-the-raped-girl/ " again also, no doubt ?

mircea_popescu: you may not recall the name of the white house janitor depicted from behind. but he is famous for fistbumping a pantsuit rapper once.

asciilifeform: from behind << reminds of ww2 front su joak. new d00d in platoon, sitting by fire , listens to tales . old sargeant, 'we found pile of arms and legs and torso, but guesswhat, our doc stiched together and now them arms,legs fightin' again, see ivan over there.' new fella answers, 'i can do better, in my old unit we took a shell, found... just an arse.' sarge : 'what didja do then, what can do with just an arse' d00d: 'what do you thin