phf: Enlightenment window manager is "fully committed to moving to Wayland eventually as this is definitely the future of the graphical display layer on Linux." etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-12 23:01 asciilifeform: and iirc 'wayland' is one of those infuriating idiocies where 'want remote proggy? here's a DESKTOP, in a 1024x768 box'
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 12:42 phf: but freezing effectively implies lockstep freezing of the whole environment, to hardware. ("oh we deprecated x11, your code better support wayland. oh this new video card only supports wayland, since x11 is deprecated, etc."]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-13 23:41 asciilifeform: from comments, lulzgold, 'The Hivemind is fully committed to systemd for service management, Wayland for graphical display, and PulseAudio for audio, which is why it doesn’t matter if you personally find them distasteful, they will become the de facto standard. For systems programming, Rust looks increasingly like it will be the Hivemind’s choice to replace C, as it has the backing of the Mozilla organization, is being used for r
phf: noticed this while looking for imlib2 sources
sina: "Report: 7 Percent of Americans Think Brown Cows Make Chocolate Milk"
phf: you've lived in u.s. too long when you think "oh, hmm, that's not that bad actually!"
mircea_popescu: this "poor idiots make standards -- doesn't matter what lords thnk" nonsense is it's very own kind of poetteringization.
sina: mircea_popescu: you use wordpress tho :P
phf: some people when they come back to old homestead take certain perverse pleasure in learning that joe now sucks cock for meth, while molly is married with three kids to a cop that beats her. not i, i'm sad to see my childhood friends debase themselves so
sina: I got nothing against Wayland.
sina: at least Wayland apps can't keylog other Wayland apps like X can
sina: I'm not saying it's the best thing ever, but X needs to die, and only a few people are doing the work to kill it
phf: sina: did you read that on reddit?
mircea_popescu: well, let's instead examine priors. sina and why must it die ?
sina: mircea_popescu: my main gripe is that X apps aren't isolated from each other, so they can tamper easily. I don't really like it that a vulnerability in, e.g. xeyes, can read firefox memory, or whatever.
mircea_popescu: no apps on any x86 machine are isolated from each other.
sina: so that makes it OK for a given X app to be able to log keys from another X app?
mircea_popescu: ie, you are reacting to the empty tank light coming on by trying to buy a car without one
mircea_popescu: no, it does not make it ok. it also does not make it ok for some snake oil salesman to sell his "better" shitpie.
mircea_popescu: the republic is well weary of such charlatans, chiefly because their ~only offering encountered experimentally sooner or later boils down to "vote hillary"
sina: the republic is, as you like to say, a sovereign entity, can do whatever it likes, including ignoring the existence of software produced by people it deems as charlatans
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, it can not ignore it, and exploit the holes for great ethlulz.
mircea_popescu: or it can laugh ass off at them and publicly humiliater
mircea_popescu: or it can send assassins to peel the skin off their children in the night while they watch in horror.
sina: I'm trying to remember that thing you said when I was asking about the php mpfhf
a111: Logged on 2017-06-09 22:38 mircea_popescu: "works in the sense that it does something, not in the sense it does what it should"
phf: sina: could you explain the difference between how keylogger issue manifests in x11 vs. how wayland prevents it, with some technical details?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: phf i doubt he's anything more than simply pissed at the rather famous x thing.
phf: that much is obvious from what he said so far, but i thought maybe he'll choose to think about it a little bit
mircea_popescu: windows vista is so aptly named, like one of those florida retirement things. "rancho linda vista" etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe not at nsa, but eg at puerto rico / united ass-fucked emirates, etc.
sina: did you rush to paste that before continue reading? she's aware of the limitations and nobody says "use windows"
sina: I'm not even a fan of Joanna or Qubes OS Xen junk
sina: I just pointing out the issue illustrated there
phf: sina: yes, but do you understand the ~technical details~
sina: X apps receive *all* keyboard input
mircea_popescu: sometimes i suspect asciilifeform has octopus helmet but with eyes, reads like that.
phf: sina: that's an extreme oversimplification that is also not true
sina: phf: it's not true that X apps receive all kb input?
mircea_popescu: sina trivially verified, open two gui editors, type in one , check the other.
phf: see architecturally wayland and x11 couldn't be more different. x11 supports a special network protocol that lets clients from different sources connect to the same instance of x. for example you can have a client from a different user on the same machine or a client from a network source (like over ssh)
☟︎☟︎ phf: x11 allows you to attach your own windows to a window hierarchy, that starts with root window
phf: on any of those windows you can put masks for what kind of events you want to receive
phf: root, being a special window receives all the events (that's very handwavy but closer to truth)
phf: those events then propagate down the window hierarchy
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: mandatory at nsa << Per "Reality Winner Mc Moon Unit"'s orders
sina: fair, let me rephrase and you tell me if still not true: x apps have access to receive all keyboard input
phf: an application can choose to register events on root window and thus receive all the keyboarding events that come in (or mouse events)
sina: to me, the distinction between "X apps receive all keyboard input" and "X apps have access to receive all keyboard input" is negligible
phf: sina: can you wait till i finish my explanation
phf: in addition there's a RECORD extension that allows any application to register for all keyboard events irrespective of their destination
phf: that one is used for things like screen recording, and is optional. it doesn't otherwise respect the hierarchy
sina: I have no beef with that extension
phf: a security minded application can do what's known as a server grab, which isolates a chosen window and makes it a new root as far as events are concerned
phf: so now it doesn't matter who's registered for what, the only windows that will be receiving events are those in the server grab hierarchy, i.e. your chosen window and its children
phf: (there's a handful of other extensions that might potentially be used to subvert that mechanism, but likewise they are not mandatory and can be disabled like XTEST)
phf: if you simply load an x app, attach it to root, and start grabbing all the events then you can come to same conclusion as any random chick with a blog "omg all teh events"
☟︎ phf: but if you were to actually repeat that same exercise when gnupg pinentry is asking you for password you'll see that it doesn't work
☟︎ phf: it still works though when xterm is asking you for password because xterm doesn't know it's a password entry, and doesn't do a grab
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the cogent objection to x is that "design irrespective, something this fucking long can never be good." the redditard objection to x is "omaygerd, black chix code!"
☟︎ phf: never the less ~xterm~ specifically supports server grab for people who know what they are doing (i.e. not the lunix on desktop crowd)
sina: phf: ok that is pretty interesting and I didn't know
phf: but anyway, all of this is at all relevant why? because of the first things i said, i.e. x11 lets clients ~from network~ or ~from other users~ to connect to your session
phf: those clients are isolated, in one case by machine, in the other case by unix isolation, and can't do the obvious thing, that is read the memory of your password requesting process directly
phf: so you could, theoretically connect to a compromised ssh box, with your x11 tunneling enabled, and get a silent agent snooping your keyboard
phf: and this is where we come to wayland
phf: wayland "mitigates" keylogger issue by not fucking letting you start apps either as a remote user or ~even as a different user on same machine~
☟︎ phf: so any wayland app that has access to your wayland session by the obvious implications can do the obvious thing: gpg encrypt all your files, steal all your passwords, and send compromising emails to all your friends, because as should be obvious that app has access to everything else you have access too oh my fucking god the level of retardation i can't even.
mircea_popescu: phf's capacity to scale an explanation is well impressive.
sina: sure, as can any application in the dac model
sina: if you trust the software you can mitigate with whatever sandbox and if you don't then you need hw compartments, different issue
sina: phf: finished? the discussion about server grab is appreciated. links to docs or examples appreciated also
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 03:36 phf: see architecturally wayland and x11 couldn't be more different. x11 supports a special network protocol that lets clients from different sources connect to the same instance of x. for example you can have a client from a different user on the same machine or a client from a network source (like over ssh)
sina: !!v A07AB95DDCF240C19AECC10DB3102290DD17B353D9E3B04E88E8257368237C1E
sina: mircea_popescu: commandline keepassx?
sina: oh, yeah, I read through that, and wanted to see if the password manager I use was utilising it ala gpg pinentry that phf mentioned
mircea_popescu: i read that as you proposing random third party to be the root for the discussion somehow.
phf: they might be relying on gtk/kde password input boxes to do the right thing
phf: since applications (and that includes window managers) tend to send around lots of different messages as the focus is traveling around your window hierarchy, i wouldn't be surprised if gtk/qt does a very specific grab when you put a cursor inside your app's password box, and do a release whenever focus travels away
☟︎ sina: Circle Medical is seeking an Ethereum hacker to build dApps for healthcare
mircea_popescu: momentarily read "the", was "wtf are these people smoking"
mircea_popescu: but obviously, they don't even know it's a matter of "the", smoking own cock as per usual with the ustards.
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2492.54, vol: 13591.94003499 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2472.551, vol: 5975.23191 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2433.4, vol: 21458.55571283 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2774.521468, vol: 15298.81530000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2484.89, vol: 7556.11736614 | Volume-weighted last average: 2537.43121103
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 04:05 phf: since applications (and that includes window managers) tend to send around lots of different messages as the focus is traveling around your window hierarchy, i wouldn't be surprised if gtk/qt does a very specific grab when you put a cursor inside your app's password box, and do a release whenever focus travels away
sina: ratpoison created so people could code while high?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 03:48 phf: wayland "mitigates" keylogger issue by not fucking letting you start apps either as a remote user or ~even as a different user on same machine~
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 03:45 mircea_popescu: the cogent objection to x is that "design irrespective, something this fucking long can never be good." the redditard objection to x is "omaygerd, black chix code!"
mircea_popescu has notced people keep ranting on about "folders" which supposedly is how you say directory now, but w/e.
mircea_popescu: but consider eulora. it has a ... login desktop, which is not only shared between sessions, but users also! being the same
mircea_popescu: so if compiz or w/e has a similar thing ? dun have to run compiz.
mircea_popescu: no, if you change your username it is going to show trhe new one when you boot it next
mircea_popescu: which reminds me, girl forgot wireless mouse for laptop, was trying to use the mousepad. i, from meters away, was helping with the mouse.
a111: Logged on 2016-05-01 17:42 asciilifeform: (they bought the outfit i was in at the time, hilarious story for another time)
sina: tell us the story asciilifeform
a111: Logged on 2016-05-04 00:32 asciilifeform: i also recommend that gpg4win henceforth be referred to as gpg4lose.
sina: alright, it's been a pleasure, going to get some sushi
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: ERROR: 'extra af' not defined on UrbanDictionary.
mircea_popescu: i always thought that's just gypsy swag. now you're telling me it's ukrainian ?!
mircea_popescu: i've yet to meet the british government NOT fond of going around naming things.
scriba: ssh banner of 89.203.135.138 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
scriba: ssh banner of 217.70.190.113 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
mircea_popescu: al schwartz is such a treasure of specific information.
mircea_popescu: obv, toxic if ingested. but that color was outright alien
mircea_popescu: ah dun have the paperwork here, but anyway, io tell you, that item would work great as artist installation. it's an otherwordly color
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point re fluorescents is more to see where than to see if, i bet.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> and great tits to you too, mod6 ! << and to you Sir!
mod6: this seems to make sense to me off the cuff.
mircea_popescu: mod6 if you manage to cut l to where it's 64 bits you save a loit
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 17:55 asciilifeform: immediate 'argh' because we set out to operate SOLELY with M-bit FFA.
mircea_popescu: larger bar to actual tmsr sovereignity to correspond to the ideological than, eg, the continued existence of the united states.
mircea_popescu: rsa is the fundamental basis of individual identity. tmsr is a republic of men. without proper rsa, it can not be properly said men exist.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 17:52 asciilifeform: ( (X0*Y0) << 2K ) + (((X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1) - X0*X1 - X1*Y1) << K) + X1*Y1 .
mod6: yeah, im about to write this one on my whiteboard here.
ben_vulpes: do forgive my ignorance, but why must rsa ops run in constant, worst-case time?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that's not the point. the point is that the processor must never have an if(secretbit) then branch
mircea_popescu: this then reduces to the case where constant, space, time etc
mircea_popescu: whereas as alf aptly points out, the waywards of the world attempt to spit-fix this after the fact.
ben_vulpes: because those branches might spew secrets to the nic?
mircea_popescu: which, as i told sina, certainly fixes something : it makes it so that common people can't spy, but nsa still can.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes because then an outsider can and therefore will observe the black box behaviour differentials, thereby giving away the keys.
ben_vulpes: did not know the signal was that quiet
mod6: ok. so there looks to be a section on this in AoCP Vol 2. section 4.3.3. [ Section A ]
mod6: I guess, it doesn't cover karatsuba specifically, but gives some background perhaps for the uninitiated.
mod6: asciilifeform: can you explain what K is and why we need to shift by it?
deedbot: m0n0lake voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: b00blegum voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: is this like taking the low-order bits of X0*Y0 << 2*(WORD_SIZE), and (((X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1) - X0*Y0 - X1*Y1) << WORD_SIZE ?
shinohai: Epic logs I missed over past ~2 days .... especially phf's lecture this a.m.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes but do the math for signal power used in eg FM radio, then figure what the satellite would have to send.
m0n0lake: i don't need no voice , thanks shinohai
shinohai: One of those Argentines mircea_popescu raves about I see.
mircea_popescu: mod6 you take a number of say 22 bits, and cut it in two 11 bit numbers. this 11 is the k. then you have first part * 2 ^ K (=11) + second part to get the original back
mircea_popescu: shifts are mults by powers of two in binary, basically.
mircea_popescu: trivially, 11 * 11 = 121, and also (10 + 1) * (10 + 1) = 10 * 10 + 2 * 10 * 1 + 1 * 1 = 121.
mircea_popescu: because obviously if we're cutting up 11, the first part will be 1 and the second part will be 1.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-16 23:07 lobbes: <mircea_popescu> use supybot carcass then << aye. 'tis what lobbesbot (and I think jhvh1) run on, sina
mod6: mircea_popescu: ok thanks.
mod6: i haven't groked it yet.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this was going to be my next line of inquiry. can the above discussed +1 bs be lost if we simply enforce a conveniently chosen size ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 17:55 asciilifeform: immediate 'argh' because we set out to operate SOLELY with M-bit FFA.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> trivially, 11 * 11 = 121, and also (10 + 1) * (10 + 1) = 10 * 10 + 2 * 10 * 1 + 1 * 1 = 121. << what I can't figure out is where the part: + 2 comes from.
mod6: if i FOIL this thing (10 + 1)(10 + 1), i get: 10*10 + 10*1 + 1*10 + 1*1; 100 + 10 + 10 + 1 = 121. ooh, is see what you did there.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> if it weren't obvious, k = 16 << this seems to make sense
mircea_popescu: mod6 because (a + b) * (c + d) = a (c + d) + b (c +d) = ac + ad + bc + bd. now, in our case, we were doing 11 * 11 and so a = 10 AND c = 10, while b = 1 AND d = 1, and so if you replace you yahve 10 * 10 + 10 * 1 + 1 * 10 + 1 * 1. because 10 * 1 = 1 * 10 you can just write it down as 2 * 10 * 1.
mod6: mircea_popescu: yup, gotcha, that short hand threw me through a loop for a minute. lol.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the thing with these is always some little insignificant nook that gets caught
mod6: just was overthinking it .. thought maybe the '2' was a base reference or something
mircea_popescu: but yes alf is correct i did base 10 for convenience because most people don't have base 2 mult table loaded in head so dunno what 110 * 101 is
mod6: yeah, few examples i've seen of karatsuba all use base 10..
mod6: apparently this ends up being O(N^ln 3) or something
mircea_popescu: this is only relevant because machines do mults in like 18x the time they do adds.
mircea_popescu: if single - word mult is same as add, there's no benefit to not simply multing the parts.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i bought a can of coolant, it's FLUORESCENT GREEN << The dye is to tell you which of several incompatible types of coolant it is. Mixing GREEN and ORANGE coolant is a good way to introduce rust to one's engine block cooling passages.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> possibly the practice had spread to auto world << Coolant color coded with dye. Refrigerant available with optional dye for leak finding.
mod6: <+BingoBoingo> <mircea_popescu> i bought a can of coolant, it's FLUORESCENT GREEN << he dye is to tell you which of several incompatible types of coolant it is. Mixing GREEN and ORANGE coolant is a good way to introduce rust to one's engine block cooling passages. << iirc, all vehicles pre-1995 or so used the green coolant.
☟︎☟︎ mod6: post, most seem to now use this "dex-cool" stuff which is pink or orange. you are not supposed to mix them, no. and as bb says, can introduce rust into the water jacket of the block.
mod6: anyway, the wisdom seems to be, use what's described in the manual or even written on the radiator cap. fwiw, never open a radiator cap while engine is hot - contents under pressure.
mod6: (noshit.jpg) et. al.
mod6: im not sure why they switched to the new coolant. they always just said, "lasts longer, etc." but i wonder if it was really due to the proliferation of aluminum blocks.
mod6: asciilifeform: thanks for the hex example.
mircea_popescu: which brings the mixing : putting orange in green engine is bad. orange engine can run with green fine
mircea_popescu: shinohai cardboard car for looking at not for driving in the rain.
mod6: mircea_popescu: this is actually what a guy at auto store told me recently too; but other fellas have told me, "if you wanna be 100% sure you're not going to introduce any problems, just use what it says in the manual or on cap."
mod6: you fixin up the bmw?
mircea_popescu much rather buy used and then put these new at own shop than buy "certified" bla bla and have to put new ones anyway in coupla years
mircea_popescu: thing is, if chick's good at mechanics she should do it all day, and if not never.
mircea_popescu: that's kinda my objection with the whole "in my kitchen" outlook. if your kitchen makes stuff that's any good it should be a factory, and if not it should forget about it and just be a kitchen
mircea_popescu: hey, in theory no difference between sextoy's anterior and posterior openings. in practice she sometimes winces.
mircea_popescu: tho potty humour aside, i suspect the actual dispute is re the meaning of factory
mircea_popescu: sure, originally. what i had in mind above is that your idea of "serious kitchen" is probably my idea of factory but without any capital goods management.
mircea_popescu: if i buy coffee grindewr for kitchen, it is to work whenever the girls want coffee ground.
mircea_popescu: but if i buy coffee grinder for factory, it is to work at all times, and girls will change their schedule to keep it going, not it to accomodate them.
☟︎ BingoBoingo: <mod6> im not sure why they switched to the new coolant. they always just said, "lasts longer, etc." but i wonder if it was really due to the proliferation of aluminum blocks. << Dex-cool is silicate free so gentler on Aluminum. Also something something organic/inorganic dopants differing between verde and naranja
mircea_popescu: which is why if my place costs 100 to rent and 80 to man, it will be open 24/7 and so it will cost 100 to rent and 240 to man.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> which brings the mixing : putting orange in green engine is bad. orange engine can run with green fine << Orange engine runs green fine, IF orange is drained out.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-30 13:58 asciilifeform: 'If I employ a gardener, I have to earn £3 for every £1 he can actually spend, because everything is taxed twice, first as my income, then as his.' << not only still true in today's reich, but today it'd be 10 : 1 .
BingoBoingo: Come on it's a standardized 30-45 minute task or your lawnmower is the wrong size
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it's a whole day job. crazy angles en la loma.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: not if you let it go for ~year << That isn't mowing. That is harvesting hay. Hope the crop was dry.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform used to be local kids. but now local kids are too precious cuntlets to let out of deepfreeze
mircea_popescu: all my shit goes back to all my olther shit, it's crazy. i was just contemplating this earlier.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> the funny bit is that the needed commercial arrangement 'i call on a saturday and it happens THIS MOTHERFUCKING HOUR while i'm out to dinner' is not available where i live << The is lawnmowing service since the exit of children is priced based on amoritization of mowing equipment
BingoBoingo: Anyways, the problem is excess of services amoratizing 10-50 kilodollar monsters and few amoratizing 21" machines
BingoBoingo: Mass of grass is fine. Where else do you get hay from?
BingoBoingo: And without grass roots how do you keep mud from washing away?
BingoBoingo: Spz you want to plant tomatoes? Now you need 2-cycle concrete saw and rotary hammer before you can even till!
mircea_popescu did some grass cutting, enjoyed being out with the trees
mircea_popescu: but yes, upstack : the ability to say "here, do this. ok, you'll be doing this from now on until further orders" is invaluable.
BingoBoingo: Maybe alf needs to mow with a more fun machine?
mircea_popescu: contrary to what undersexed young men may think, the prime utility of the harem also.
mircea_popescu: you can get laid at any bar. you can't ghet decent help anywhere
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform has not read the story of hyenas and haggling i take it :D
mircea_popescu: homosexuality is natural. city hall -- height of perversion.
mircea_popescu: aha. this is why i did it in timisoara, flatland, and not here.
mircea_popescu: great for your back, and from experience as fast as the crapomachines
BingoBoingo: There's still reel mower as long as you can get traction on your turf
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It's just a wide fenceline!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sounds like the solution to your problem would be bonzai grass.