log
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danielpbarron: !!key Keira_
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/C749882BD8DA745D08AED799E2412274349F8219.asc
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in cheap ho-tels, http://68.media.tumblr.com/c7244ea521976e6ebab5ebbc69a8e56f/tumblr_ojztapZSp61w3shn6o1_1280.jpg
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/28BBDCC61450814CF3F22DEFA6FD7B74BCF4C1D4A007F3AAB3D611350E614CD0 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1059...1187 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '198.2.36.167 (ssh-rsa key from 198.2.36.167 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (rrcs-198-2-36-167.west.biz.rr.com. US CA)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/819BC7DB3450C9B9EF5D0AD24E6DF1ABD58A79A1962DB4FB76BD9965837C890B << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1069...5599 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '66.193.84.241 (ssh-rsa key from 66.193.84.241 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (66-193-84-241.static.twtelecom.net. US NY)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/28BBDCC61450814CF3F22DEFA6FD7B74BCF4C1D4A007F3AAB3D611350E614CD0 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1069...5599 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '198.2.36.167 (ssh-rsa key from 198.2.36.167 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (rrcs-198-2-36-167.west.biz.rr.com. US CA)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/819BC7DB3450C9B9EF5D0AD24E6DF1ABD58A79A1962DB4FB76BD9965837C890B << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1229...0123 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '66.193.84.241 (ssh-rsa key from 66.193.84.241 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (66-193-84-241.static.twtelecom.net. US NY)
phf: Enlightenment window manager is "fully committed to moving to Wayland eventually as this is definitely the future of the graphical display layer on Linux." etc.
asciilifeform: ahahaha
mircea_popescu: what's wayland ?
asciilifeform: !#s wayland
a111: 15 results for "wayland", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=wayland
asciilifeform: e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-12#1450738 , http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455551 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-13#1602505☝︎☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-04-12 23:01 asciilifeform: and iirc 'wayland' is one of those infuriating idiocies where 'want remote proggy? here's a DESKTOP, in a 1024x768 box'
a111: Logged on 2016-04-22 12:42 phf: but freezing effectively implies lockstep freezing of the whole environment, to hardware. ("oh we deprecated x11, your code better support wayland. oh this new video card only supports wayland, since x11 is deprecated, etc."]
a111: Logged on 2017-01-13 23:41 asciilifeform: from comments, lulzgold, 'The Hivemind is fully committed to systemd for service management, Wayland for graphical display, and PulseAudio for audio, which is why it doesn’t matter if you personally find them distasteful, they will become the de facto standard. For systems programming, Rust looks increasingly like it will be the Hivemind’s choice to replace C, as it has the backing of the Mozilla organization, is being used for r
asciilifeform: poetteringization of x11.
phf: noticed this while looking for imlib2 sources
phf: which is apparently https://git.enlightenment.org/legacy/imlib2.git now. legacy, see
sina: "Report: 7 Percent of Americans Think Brown Cows Make Chocolate Milk"
phf: you've lived in u.s. too long when you think "oh, hmm, that's not that bad actually!"
mircea_popescu: heh
asciilifeform: ^
mircea_popescu: this "poor idiots make standards -- doesn't matter what lords thnk" nonsense is it's very own kind of poetteringization.
mircea_popescu: windows WILL NEVER BE a standardf.
mircea_popescu: BECAUSE i do not use it.
mircea_popescu: the ONLY WAY anything can matter is if ~I~ use it.
sina: mircea_popescu: you use wordpress tho :P
phf: some people when they come back to old homestead take certain perverse pleasure in learning that joe now sucks cock for meth, while molly is married with three kids to a cop that beats her. not i, i'm sad to see my childhood friends debase themselves so
sina: I got nothing against Wayland.
mircea_popescu: it's called mp-wp
sina: at least Wayland apps can't keylog other Wayland apps like X can
mircea_popescu: sina if you made them, at least.
mircea_popescu: koch's styill can, i'm, sure.
sina: I'm not saying it's the best thing ever, but X needs to die, and only a few people are doing the work to kill it
asciilifeform: how about the folx trying to make it die, die instead.
asciilifeform: preferably very painfully.
phf: sina: did you read that on reddit?
mircea_popescu: well, let's instead examine priors. sina and why must it die ?
sina: phf: read what?
sina: mircea_popescu: my main gripe is that X apps aren't isolated from each other, so they can tamper easily. I don't really like it that a vulnerability in, e.g. xeyes, can read firefox memory, or whatever.
mircea_popescu: no apps on any x86 machine are isolated from each other.
sina: so that makes it OK for a given X app to be able to log keys from another X app?
mircea_popescu: ie, you are reacting to the empty tank light coming on by trying to buy a car without one
mircea_popescu: no, it does not make it ok. it also does not make it ok for some snake oil salesman to sell his "better" shitpie.
mircea_popescu: the republic is well weary of such charlatans, chiefly because their ~only offering encountered experimentally sooner or later boils down to "vote hillary"
sina: the republic is, as you like to say, a sovereign entity, can do whatever it likes, including ignoring the existence of software produced by people it deems as charlatans
mircea_popescu: this is so.
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, it can not ignore it, and exploit the holes for great ethlulz.
mircea_popescu: or it can laugh ass off at them and publicly humiliater
mircea_popescu: or it can send assassins to peel the skin off their children in the night while they watch in horror.
mircea_popescu: and so following. what of it ?
sina: I'm trying to remember that thing you said when I was asking about the php mpfhf
mircea_popescu: im sure it's in the glorious logs!
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-09#1667824☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-09 22:38 mircea_popescu: "works in the sense that it does something, not in the sense it does what it should"
mircea_popescu: lel
phf: sina: could you explain the difference between how keylogger issue manifests in x11 vs. how wayland prevents it, with some technical details?
mircea_popescu: phf i doubt he's anything more than simply pissed at the rather famous x thing.
mircea_popescu: it's one of those outrageous items.
phf: that much is obvious from what he said so far, but i thought maybe he'll choose to think about it a little bit
mircea_popescu: in time!
phf simmers down
mircea_popescu: phf is wise beyond his years.
sina: phf: mostly my opinion based on this article https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/linux-security-circus-on-gui-isolation.html
asciilifeform: 'Windows is the only one mainstream OS I'm aware of, that actually attempts to implement some form of GUI-level isolation, starting from Windows Vista. See e.g. this ancient article I wrote in the days when I used Vista at my primary laptop.'
asciilifeform falls down.
mircea_popescu: windows vista is so aptly named, like one of those florida retirement things. "rancho linda vista" etc
asciilifeform: ^ for n00bz -- this is verbatim Official usg doctrine -- i.e. the ostensible reason why winblowz is mandatory at nsa etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe not at nsa, but eg at puerto rico / united ass-fucked emirates, etc.
sina: did you rush to paste that before continue reading? she's aware of the limitations and nobody says "use windows"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mandatory at nsa
sina: I'm not even a fan of Joanna or Qubes OS Xen junk
asciilifeform: sina: i read it back when.
sina: I just pointing out the issue illustrated there
phf: sina: yes, but do you understand the ~technical details~
sina: X apps receive *all* keyboard input
sina: Wayland apps don't
sina: yay
mircea_popescu: sometimes i suspect asciilifeform has octopus helmet but with eyes, reads like that.
asciilifeform: sina: ever meet a fella who bought reinforced iron door to put in a drywall flat , with ground floor windows ?
phf: sina: that's an extreme oversimplification that is also not true
sina: phf: it's not true that X apps receive all kb input?
phf: no
mircea_popescu: sina trivially verified, open two gui editors, type in one , check the other.
phf: see architecturally wayland and x11 couldn't be more different. x11 supports a special network protocol that lets clients from different sources connect to the same instance of x. for example you can have a client from a different user on the same machine or a client from a network source (like over ssh)
phf: x11 allows you to attach your own windows to a window hierarchy, that starts with root window
phf: on any of those windows you can put masks for what kind of events you want to receive
phf: root, being a special window receives all the events (that's very handwavy but closer to truth)
phf: those events then propagate down the window hierarchy
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: mandatory at nsa << Per "Reality Winner Mc Moon Unit"'s orders
sina: fair, let me rephrase and you tell me if still not true: x apps have access to receive all keyboard input
phf: an application can choose to register events on root window and thus receive all the keyboarding events that come in (or mouse events)
sina: to me, the distinction between "X apps receive all keyboard input" and "X apps have access to receive all keyboard input" is negligible
phf: sina: can you wait till i finish my explanation
sina: sorry
sina: continue
phf: in addition there's a RECORD extension that allows any application to register for all keyboard events irrespective of their destination
phf: that one is used for things like screen recording, and is optional. it doesn't otherwise respect the hierarchy
sina: I have no beef with that extension
phf: a security minded application can do what's known as a server grab, which isolates a chosen window and makes it a new root as far as events are concerned
phf: so now it doesn't matter who's registered for what, the only windows that will be receiving events are those in the server grab hierarchy, i.e. your chosen window and its children
phf: (there's a handful of other extensions that might potentially be used to subvert that mechanism, but likewise they are not mandatory and can be disabled like XTEST)
phf: if you simply load an x app, attach it to root, and start grabbing all the events then you can come to same conclusion as any random chick with a blog "omg all teh events"
phf: but if you were to actually repeat that same exercise when gnupg pinentry is asking you for password you'll see that it doesn't work
phf: it still works though when xterm is asking you for password because xterm doesn't know it's a password entry, and doesn't do a grab
mircea_popescu: the cogent objection to x is that "design irrespective, something this fucking long can never be good." the redditard objection to x is "omaygerd, black chix code!"
phf: never the less ~xterm~ specifically supports server grab for people who know what they are doing (i.e. not the lunix on desktop crowd)
sina: phf: ok that is pretty interesting and I didn't know
phf: but anyway, all of this is at all relevant why? because of the first things i said, i.e. x11 lets clients ~from network~ or ~from other users~ to connect to your session
phf: those clients are isolated, in one case by machine, in the other case by unix isolation, and can't do the obvious thing, that is read the memory of your password requesting process directly
phf: so you could, theoretically connect to a compromised ssh box, with your x11 tunneling enabled, and get a silent agent snooping your keyboard
phf: and this is where we come to wayland
phf: wayland "mitigates" keylogger issue by not fucking letting you start apps either as a remote user or ~even as a different user on same machine~
phf: so any wayland app that has access to your wayland session by the obvious implications can do the obvious thing: gpg encrypt all your files, steal all your passwords, and send compromising emails to all your friends, because as should be obvious that app has access to everything else you have access too oh my fucking god the level of retardation i can't even.
mircea_popescu: phf's capacity to scale an explanation is well impressive.
sina: sure, as can any application in the dac model
sina: if you trust the software you can mitigate with whatever sandbox and if you don't then you need hw compartments, different issue
sina: phf: finished? the discussion about server grab is appreciated. links to docs or examples appreciated also
sina: !!rate phf 5 patient explanation of X server grab (http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671304)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 03:36 phf: see architecturally wayland and x11 couldn't be more different. x11 supports a special network protocol that lets clients from different sources connect to the same instance of x. for example you can have a client from a different user on the same machine or a client from a network source (like over ssh)
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Oxgfk/?raw=true
phf: man XGrabKeyboard
sina: !!v A07AB95DDCF240C19AECC10DB3102290DD17B353D9E3B04E88E8257368237C1E
deedbot: sina rated phf 5 << patient explanation of X server grab (http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671304)
sina: https://github.com/keepassx/keepassx/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=XGrabKeyboard&type= :'(
mircea_popescu: but try the command line ?
sina: mircea_popescu: commandline keepassx?
mircea_popescu: man XGrabKeyboard
sina: oh, yeah, I read through that, and wanted to see if the password manager I use was utilising it ala gpg pinentry that phf mentioned
sina: tis not
mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: i read that as you proposing random third party to be the root for the discussion somehow.
sina: soz
mircea_popescu: random blogspot links dun help :D
phf: they might be relying on gtk/kde password input boxes to do the right thing
phf: since applications (and that includes window managers) tend to send around lots of different messages as the focus is traveling around your window hierarchy, i wouldn't be surprised if gtk/qt does a very specific grab when you put a cursor inside your app's password box, and do a release whenever focus travels away
sina: carrying on the "jobs for asciilifeform" https://jobs.lever.co/circlemedical/3de96093-ac16-40da-8ee6-0a721ebcd960?lever-origin=applied&lever-source%5B%5D=HACKERNEWS
sina: Circle Medical is seeking an Ethereum hacker to build dApps for healthcare
mircea_popescu: momentarily read "the", was "wtf are these people smoking"
mircea_popescu: but obviously, they don't even know it's a matter of "the", smoking own cock as per usual with the ustards.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2492.54, vol: 13591.94003499 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2472.551, vol: 5975.23191 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2433.4, vol: 21458.55571283 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2774.521468, vol: 15298.81530000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2484.89, vol: 7556.11736614 | Volume-weighted last average: 2537.43121103
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671355 << can't speak for other folx, i run in '0 stealing focus' mode☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 04:05 phf: since applications (and that includes window managers) tend to send around lots of different messages as the focus is traveling around your window hierarchy, i wouldn't be surprised if gtk/qt does a very specific grab when you put a cursor inside your app's password box, and do a release whenever focus travels away
asciilifeform: as in, 0 popups, focus moves WHEN I MOTHERFUCKING MOVE IT
asciilifeform: ( this is trivial in 'ratpoison' and i have nfi where else )
asciilifeform: and i mean literally does not EVER move by itself -- not connected to mouse, either
asciilifeform: has to be moved explicitly, using designated keys
asciilifeform: and this is as it ought to be.
mircea_popescu: is it connected to alt-tab ? :D
asciilifeform: nope/
mircea_popescu: but standard!
asciilifeform: connected to, i shit thee not, dedicated physical keys.
mircea_popescu: pedal ?
asciilifeform: nah
asciilifeform: keys
mircea_popescu: pedal would be cool
sina: lol http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/inspiration.html'
asciilifeform: i used to have pedals
sina: ratpoison created so people could code while high?
asciilifeform: threw out , from frustration, because nobody - NOBODY - sells a set of pedals of decent physical quality
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671332 >> 'Хорошо тому живется / У кого одна нога...'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 03:48 phf: wayland "mitigates" keylogger issue by not fucking letting you start apps either as a remote user or ~even as a different user on same machine~
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671325 << the objection is valid but only when it comes with a 'and here is how i shortened it and DOES SAME JOB'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 03:45 mircea_popescu: the cogent objection to x is that "design irrespective, something this fucking long can never be good." the redditard objection to x is "omaygerd, black chix code!"
mircea_popescu: myeah
asciilifeform: i.e. remote session on ARBITRARY SIZED DISPLAY and not in motherfucking microshit-style 'have your 1024x768 remotedesktop liquishit'
mircea_popescu: im not trying to take your monitors
asciilifeform: it ain't even about the monitors, but re the poettering's attempts to import the 'desktop' idiocy into linux
asciilifeform: where 'of course there is One Desktop'
mircea_popescu: what is the desktop idiocy ?
asciilifeform: the one where there is anything whatsoever graphically outside of particular proggy.
mircea_popescu has notced people keep ranting on about "folders" which supposedly is how you say directory now, but w/e.
asciilifeform: and in particular, shared between sessions
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't get it.
asciilifeform: well, on classical x11 i have, e.g., machine that runs, say, 20 gui proggies, and each one 1) is on an entirely different machine, somewhere else, some of them not even on same continent 2) behaves EXACTLY as if it were running locally, window reshapes, etc 3) none have any shared state with the others, each sees local disk only of own local machine etc
mircea_popescu: but consider eulora. it has a ... login desktop, which is not only shared between sessions, but users also! being the same
mircea_popescu: then you get to your actual game.
asciilifeform: yes but deliberate effect
mircea_popescu: so if compiz or w/e has a similar thing ? dun have to run compiz.
asciilifeform: and it is not in any reasonable sense 'shared', merely copied
mircea_popescu: well what's the difference
asciilifeform: the shared state in eulora is the game board -- explicit
mircea_popescu: no, if you change your username it is going to show trhe new one when you boot it next
asciilifeform: get hold some time of a winblows box and see what microshit passes off as 'remote desktop', then will see what was meant here.
mircea_popescu files this discussion away for retirement.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : all you get is the effect of N duplicate screens -- in the form of cruddy, slow, dithered mirrors of 1 screen - and keyboard - of a single, in effect, winblowz box. can even play 'war of the cursors' )
mircea_popescu: which reminds me, girl forgot wireless mouse for laptop, was trying to use the mousepad. i, from meters away, was helping with the mouse.
mircea_popescu: was great fun!
asciilifeform: lel
mircea_popescu: it can produce a huge ball of wtf, this procedure.
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-01#1460261☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-05-01 17:42 asciilifeform: (they bought the outfit i was in at the time, hilarious story for another time)
sina: tell us the story asciilifeform
sina: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-03#1461762 did this ever happen☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-05-03 12:15 mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone with a box with python > 3.2 on it is willing to give http://cado-nfs.gforge.inria.fr/ a whirl (specifically in regards to the modulus in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-03#1461712 ) plox lemme know whether it even worx.
mircea_popescu: not afgaik
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-04#1462226☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-05-04 00:32 asciilifeform: i also recommend that gpg4win henceforth be referred to as gpg4lose.
sina: alright, it's been a pleasure, going to get some sushi
BingoBoingo: !~ud extra af
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: ERROR: 'extra af' not defined on UrbanDictionary.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile from the "today i introduced my best friend to my master. we went for a picnic" files, https://68.media.tumblr.com/91b81a0742485b4a8aee7870536e5603/tumblr_onq1le4qqH1ssn9vjo1_400.gif
asciilifeform: lol ukrs
mircea_popescu: couldja tell ?
mircea_popescu: wat gave it away, the bear in the distance ?
asciilifeform: the demonstrative lolgarb ?
mircea_popescu: :p
mircea_popescu: i always thought that's just gypsy swag. now you're telling me it's ukrainian ?!
asciilifeform: hey they too can be ukrs!111 ( if they can be 'romanians' )
mircea_popescu: i suppose trully, they're just british.
asciilifeform: i've yet to meet the brit fond of dressing up in ukriform -- but nfi.
mircea_popescu: i've yet to meet the british government NOT fond of going around naming things.
asciilifeform: tru
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DC0A629D9F7ED9E06B98F7D21BB5A116CFB99DF5A9866B47E11088EC804044DF << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1390...8363 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.203.135.138 (ssh-rsa key from 89.203.135.138 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (138-135-203-89.net.baz.cz. CZ)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DC0A629D9F7ED9E06B98F7D21BB5A116CFB99DF5A9866B47E11088EC804044DF << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1501...3783 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.203.135.138 (ssh-rsa key from 89.203.135.138 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (138-135-203-89.net.baz.cz. CZ)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A347597E83187EAC28F0979A98CCB1B5BA36BD16A6023C8288E4CC1D68EBE464 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1436...5243 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.70.190.113 (ssh-rsa key from 217.70.190.113 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (xvm-190-113.ghst.net. FR)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A347597E83187EAC28F0979A98CCB1B5BA36BD16A6023C8288E4CC1D68EBE464 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1569...0387 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.70.190.113 (ssh-rsa key from 217.70.190.113 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (xvm-190-113.ghst.net. FR)
Framedragger: !$ssh 89.203.135.138 217.70.190.113
scriba: ssh banner of 89.203.135.138 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
scriba: ssh banner of 217.70.190.113 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-boundless-burden/ << Trilema - The boundless burden
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/the-boundless-burden/#comment-122248
mircea_popescu: back atcha
asciilifeform: incidentally,
asciilifeform: !~google felonious fortification
jhvh1: asciilifeform: ASK DR. SCHUND - Mazepath: <http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/placebo.htm>; Breast milk (Steven B. Harris, M.D.) - Yarchive: <http://yarchive.net/med/breast_milk.html>; Erythorbic Acid (President Bush have a less-carcinogenic hotdog ...: <http://scienceblogs.com/moleculeoftheday/2008/08/04/erythorbic-acid-president-bush/>
asciilifeform: lol , 1st 2 hits -- subj!
asciilifeform: and 3 -- uncle al commenting..
asciilifeform: ( so all 3 )
asciilifeform: 'FDA specifically bans from human infant formula ("felonious fortification") the addition of a tetraunsaturated fatty acid only found in human breast milk. Near as anyone can tell, its only metabolic purpose is to encourage brain development. Human milk for human babies - or you bring up a Democrat.' ftr.
asciilifeform: elsewhere in uncleal, 'The FDA screamed "felonious fortification" when makers of cheap fortified wines wanted to add thiamine to prevent alcoholic neuropathy caused by thiamine malabsorption.'
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: al schwartz is such a treasure of specific information.
asciilifeform: though i am at a loss to find a clean 'logic' for what gets 'fortified'. for instance i have on my desk now a commonplace can of pseudofreon , and to some surprise discovered 'bitterant to deter snorting' on the ingredients list
asciilifeform: gotta wonder, what cost it adds to the bottle, and what effect it has on the surfaces where sprayed, etc
mircea_popescu: i bought a can of coolant, it's FLUORESCENT GREEN
asciilifeform: and wtf was the Official justification.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the contents?!
mircea_popescu: yup
asciilifeform: ah y'mean liquid, e.g. antifreeze ?
mircea_popescu: obv, toxic if ingested. but that color was outright alien
mircea_popescu: yes
asciilifeform: didja buy it in a comp shop, meant for use in those fluorescent-lit showman pcs kidz build ?!
mircea_popescu: nope, car shop.
asciilifeform: nuts.
mircea_popescu: lemme see
mircea_popescu: ah dun have the paperwork here, but anyway, io tell you, that item would work great as artist installation. it's an otherwordly color
asciilifeform: incidentally 'water pc' folx often add fluorescent dye to the coolant even when not 'show piece' -- it aids in finding leaks
asciilifeform: ( uv lamp )
asciilifeform: possibly the practice had spread to auto world
mircea_popescu: ah this makes sense huh
mircea_popescu: clever enough
mod6: hola
mircea_popescu: and great tits to you too, mod6 !
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: methyl mercaptan is the ultimate 'leak finder', but for some... odd!111 reason ... not popular
mircea_popescu: stinks to all heavens ?
asciilifeform: aha, is the point!
mircea_popescu: but it might explain why not popular ?
asciilifeform: same way you know that gas leak.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's father had an army story where he & some d00dz got hold of a vial
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point re fluorescents is more to see where than to see if, i bet.
asciilifeform: and it went into (wooden) truck bed of a certain fella who Really Needed To
asciilifeform: later he was made to go to the forest an' burn the bed.
mircea_popescu: lol
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> and great tits to you too, mod6 ! << and to you Sir!
asciilifeform: heya mod6
mod6: how goes alf?
asciilifeform: mod6: still doing ~same thing..
asciilifeform: (fixed-space karatsuba)
asciilifeform: astonishing degree of bitch
asciilifeform: ( and -- afaik it has never existed, anywhere, anyhow, nowhere to crib, also )
mod6: aha
asciilifeform: i'll review karatsuba here, ftr. suppose you have 2 L-bit numbers, X and Y, to multiply. you can multiply X*Y the usual way, is O(N^2). but instead anatoly alexeevich k. shows us that you can cut X into X0,X1, ceil(x/2) and floor(x/2) bits, respectively, and same to Y, -> Y0,Y1, and then you only gotta do THREE multiplications, X0*Y0, X1*Y1, (X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1)
asciilifeform: then you can recombine'em ,
mod6: this seems to make sense to me off the cuff.
asciilifeform: ( (X0*Y0) << 2K ) + (((X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1) - X0*X1 - X1*Y1) << K) + X1*Y1 .
mircea_popescu: mod6 if you manage to cut l to where it's 64 bits you save a loit
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that there's the base case
asciilifeform: and usually you'll have it above 1 machine word
asciilifeform: ( where to draw magic line, can only be found empirically, depends somewhat on machine )
asciilifeform: but at any rate, the astute reader will immediately notice that k's algo is not fixedwidth-friendly : in the addition
asciilifeform: addition of 2 B-bit integers needs B+1 bits
asciilifeform: our machine ain't bit-discrete tho and so it needs M+1 machine words
asciilifeform: immediate 'argh' because we set out to operate SOLELY with M-bit FFA.
mircea_popescu: tsk
mircea_popescu: this IS a bitch
mod6: hmm.
asciilifeform: so, for instance, if X and Y were 32-bit integers, the term (X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1) is actually 34 bits wide.
asciilifeform: or scratch that
asciilifeform: 66
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: the babe police force arrested ben vulpes
asciilifeform: lel
asciilifeform: anyway to round out the thread -- i solved it, in the 'obvious' way, but now gotta simplify the proggy a bit, so that it becomes again readable, and also ideally would like to waste less space
asciilifeform: ( it is probably obvious that any conceivable solution - esp in a pointer-avoiding proggy -- will waste much space )
mircea_popescu: i prefer the word invest.
asciilifeform: waiwat
asciilifeform: see, when we copy bits again and again , things gets slow, and ends up barely beating the egyptological mult.
mircea_popescu: not wasted space. invested space.
asciilifeform: the 'return' on the 'investment' is a ~year-long keygen time.
mircea_popescu: security.
asciilifeform: nogood.jpg
mircea_popescu: but yes
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671504 << M-WORD, that is☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 17:55 asciilifeform: immediate 'argh' because we set out to operate SOLELY with M-bit FFA.
asciilifeform: it continues to entertain asciilifeform that ALL KNOWN implementations of rsa extant, branch-on-secretbits
asciilifeform: ( in that their mult is not fixedspace and thereby - regardless of what snakeoil is used -- not fixedtime )
mircea_popescu: myeah
mircea_popescu: doth not entertain me
mircea_popescu: larger bar to actual tmsr sovereignity to correspond to the ideological than, eg, the continued existence of the united states.
asciilifeform: ( at one point i derived how to do ~fixed-joules~ rsa, and it is in the logs, but needs peculiar silicon, don't expect one yet )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to expand ?
mircea_popescu: rsa is the fundamental basis of individual identity. tmsr is a republic of men. without proper rsa, it can not be properly said men exist.
asciilifeform: sorta how basis of victorian england was the logarithmic table. eggog - sink ship. hence the effort for the steam 'difference engine' etc
mircea_popescu: yes, rather exactly.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671496 << err, ( (X0*Y0) << 2K ) + (((X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1) - X0*Y0 - X1*Y1) << K) + X1*Y1 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 17:52 asciilifeform: ( (X0*Y0) << 2K ) + (((X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1) - X0*X1 - X1*Y1) << K) + X1*Y1 .
mircea_popescu: you just said the same thing
asciilifeform: nope.
mircea_popescu: eh the hell
asciilifeform: diff with diff if you can't with eyes
mircea_popescu: rly ?
mircea_popescu: X0*Y0 lol wtf was that
asciilifeform: typo
asciilifeform: i had grunted it in from memory
mircea_popescu: unreadable typo apparently
mircea_popescu: 6 passes!
asciilifeform: yeah well if mod6 or phf or anybody had tried cooking with this recipe, he'd get headache and wonder wtf asciilifeform was smoking
asciilifeform always proofreads equations dropped into teh l0gz, but not necessarily in time!11
asciilifeform: incidentally the time to understand why this recipe works, is now, because users of 'p' will be expected to grasp it and the rest of mechanism
asciilifeform: as part of the 'pack yer own parachute' philosophy.
mircea_popescu: a = a1 * 10^x + a2 ; b = b1 * 10^x + b2
mircea_popescu: a * b = (a1+a2)*(b1 + b2) = etc
mod6: yeah, im about to write this one on my whiteboard here.
ben_vulpes: do forgive my ignorance, but why must rsa ops run in constant, worst-case time?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that's not the point. the point is that the processor must never have an if(secretbit) then branch
mircea_popescu: this then reduces to the case where constant, space, time etc
mircea_popescu: whereas as alf aptly points out, the waywards of the world attempt to spit-fix this after the fact.
ben_vulpes: because those branches might spew secrets to the nic?
mircea_popescu: which, as i told sina, certainly fixes something : it makes it so that common people can't spy, but nsa still can.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes because then an outsider can and therefore will observe the black box behaviour differentials, thereby giving away the keys.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if i ( or whoever ) can time the execution of your mod-exp even to , e.g., 20% accuracy, a couplea times (say, by listening with radio next door) i can derive your p,q.
ben_vulpes: aha
asciilifeform: supposing you were using gpg ( or pretty much any other rsatron )
asciilifeform: hypothetically i could even do it ( supposing your rsatron is mains-powered ) by observing the imperceptible dimming of the room lights, from 5km away
asciilifeform: or whichever.
asciilifeform: the kindergarten term for the concept is 'side channel'.
asciilifeform: the imho interesting part of this tale is that ~time~ is the most, it turns out, difficult side channel to properly cement shut
asciilifeform: because none of the naive approaches 1) work 2) give any symptom of not working, until you're dead
asciilifeform: adding random noise -- 'i'll look in the box after T nsec, with T uniform random quantity..' most interestingly does NOT work
asciilifeform: in that you are adding a finite and -- in most cases manageable -- amount of noise to the signal.
asciilifeform: which enemy will -- eventually -- subtract.
asciilifeform: ( if you own, e.g., 'gps' receiver, you already own an example of a device that picks up a signal BELOW motherfucking THERMAL noise!1111 )
ben_vulpes: whoa really?
asciilifeform: aaha
asciilifeform: !~google phase-locked loop
jhvh1: asciilifeform: What is phase - locked loop ? - Definition from WhatIs.com: <http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/phase-locked-loop>; Phase Locked Loop Tutorial | PLL Fundamtentals | Radio ...: <http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/rf-technology-design/pll-synthesizers/phase-locked-loop-tutorial.php>; MT-086: Fundamentals of Phase Locked Loops ... - Analog Devices: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: ^ basic idea
ben_vulpes: mhm
ben_vulpes: did not know the signal was that quiet
asciilifeform: idea of pll is that you can indeed see a lit match from mile away in daylight if you know 'exactly when to look'
asciilifeform: concept is usually taught in re radio but applies just as readily in optics -- say, the common infrared remote button
asciilifeform: receiver samples at the carrier freq (typically 40 or so kHz), and then processed as serial bits.
asciilifeform: whereas if you're a kid and naively build a thing that tries to close a relay when infrared diode sees light and conducts dc -- it will work for maybe a metre, no moar, distance
asciilifeform: ...drowns in noise, if made any moar sensitive
asciilifeform: because room is full of, if you will, 'dc' light
asciilifeform: whereas (ideally) 'not so full' of 40kHz light.
asciilifeform: lulzily, long ago, asciilifeform tried to make use of this principle to build a sunglass for seeing lappy lcd in bright sunlight ( sync lcd shutter, a la 'game glasses', to the backlight pwm freq )
asciilifeform: couldn't source a set of lcd glasses that had usefully high switching speed.
mod6: ok. so there looks to be a section on this in AoCP Vol 2. section 4.3.3. [ Section A ]
mod6: I guess, it doesn't cover karatsuba specifically, but gives some background perhaps for the uninitiated.
mod6: asciilifeform: can you explain what K is and why we need to shift by it?
shinohai: !!up m0n0lake
deedbot: m0n0lake voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!up b00blegum
deedbot: b00blegum voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: is this like taking the low-order bits of X0*Y0 << 2*(WORD_SIZE), and (((X0+X1)*(Y0+Y1) - X0*Y0 - X1*Y1) << WORD_SIZE ?
shinohai: Epic logs I missed over past ~2 days .... especially phf's lecture this a.m.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes but do the math for signal power used in eg FM radio, then figure what the satellite would have to send.
m0n0lake: i don't need no voice , thanks shinohai
shinohai: !!down m0n0lake
shinohai: One of those Argentines mircea_popescu raves about I see.
mircea_popescu: mod6 you take a number of say 22 bits, and cut it in two 11 bit numbers. this 11 is the k. then you have first part * 2 ^ K (=11) + second part to get the original back
mircea_popescu: shifts are mults by powers of two in binary, basically.
mircea_popescu: trivially, 11 * 11 = 121, and also (10 + 1) * (10 + 1) = 10 * 10 + 2 * 10 * 1 + 1 * 1 = 121.
mircea_popescu: that 10 is 1 * 10 ^ 1 ie first part * 2 ^ k.
mircea_popescu: because obviously if we're cutting up 11, the first part will be 1 and the second part will be 1.
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-16#1671180 <<< 'tis correct, though I am still working on switching it to lispbot as time permits.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-16 23:07 lobbes: <mircea_popescu> use supybot carcass then << aye. 'tis what lobbesbot (and I think jhvh1) run on, sina
mod6: mircea_popescu: ok thanks.
mircea_popescu: that make sense ?
mod6: i haven't groked it yet.
asciilifeform: mod6: mircea_popescu's explanation is correct: K is ceil(bitness/2)
asciilifeform: ...if all of your ffa are 'clean' powerof2-sized, you can lose the floor/ceiling thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this was going to be my next line of inquiry. can the above discussed +1 bs be lost if we simply enforce a conveniently chosen size ?
asciilifeform: which one
mircea_popescu: !#s "argh"
a111: 120 results for "\"argh\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22argh%22
asciilifeform: the carry from the addition ? nope
asciilifeform: i'ma work a concrete example here, so, patience...:
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671504 this one☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-06-17 17:55 asciilifeform: immediate 'argh' because we set out to operate SOLELY with M-bit FFA.
asciilifeform: let's multiply 0xffffffff by 0xffffffff
asciilifeform: ( maxint of 32bit register )
asciilifeform: using k.algo ( you wouldn't, in life, but principle remains same )
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> trivially, 11 * 11 = 121, and also (10 + 1) * (10 + 1) = 10 * 10 + 2 * 10 * 1 + 1 * 1 = 121. << what I can't figure out is where the part: + 2 comes from.
asciilifeform: the result is ( noshit.jpg!! ) a 64bit , 0xfffffffe00000001
asciilifeform: let's get it via k.:
asciilifeform: X0 = 0xffff
asciilifeform: X1 = 0xffff
asciilifeform: Y0 = 0xffff
asciilifeform: Y1 = 0xffff
mod6: if i FOIL this thing (10 + 1)(10 + 1), i get: 10*10 + 10*1 + 1*10 + 1*1; 100 + 10 + 10 + 1 = 121. ooh, is see what you did there.
asciilifeform: X0Y0 = 0xfffe0001
asciilifeform: X1Y1 = 0xfffe0001
asciilifeform: nao for the bitch :
asciilifeform: X0+X1 == Y0+Y1 == 0x1fffe .
asciilifeform: which is 17, and not 16 bits
asciilifeform: (X0 + X1) * (Y0 + Y1) == 0x3fff80004
asciilifeform: which is ~34~ bits
asciilifeform: sooooo:
asciilifeform: p0 = X0*Y0
asciilifeform: p1 = ( (X0 + X1) * (Y0 + Y1) )
asciilifeform: p2 = X1*Y1
asciilifeform: p2*(2**32) + (p1-p2-p0)*(2**16) + p0 ==
asciilifeform: 0xfffffffe00000001
asciilifeform: and we're done.
asciilifeform: ( apologies for l0g clutter, but gotta do this !!)
asciilifeform: if it weren't obvious, k = 16
asciilifeform: ( we did not recurse, in this example, explicitly, but if you had -- you would have k := ceil((bitness of x and y)/2) naturally in each level of recursion
asciilifeform: )
mod6: <+asciilifeform> if it weren't obvious, k = 16 << this seems to make sense
mircea_popescu: mod6 because (a + b) * (c + d) = a (c + d) + b (c +d) = ac + ad + bc + bd. now, in our case, we were doing 11 * 11 and so a = 10 AND c = 10, while b = 1 AND d = 1, and so if you replace you yahve 10 * 10 + 10 * 1 + 1 * 10 + 1 * 1. because 10 * 1 = 1 * 10 you can just write it down as 2 * 10 * 1.
asciilifeform: now my recipe is arranged a little bit differently from, e.g., knuth's , so that we can forget about signs
asciilifeform: ( there are not and will not be signed arithmetic in ffa )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is using base10 in his example but otherwise right
mod6: mircea_popescu: yup, gotcha, that short hand threw me through a loop for a minute. lol.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the thing with these is always some little insignificant nook that gets caught
mod6: just was overthinking it .. thought maybe the '2' was a base reference or something
asciilifeform: mod6: aha, my recipe uses (noshit.jpg) base2
mircea_popescu: but yes alf is correct i did base 10 for convenience because most people don't have base 2 mult table loaded in head so dunno what 110 * 101 is
mod6: yeah, was easier.
asciilifeform: knuth uses base10 in his overview, aha
mod6: yeah, few examples i've seen of karatsuba all use base 10..
asciilifeform: basic idea is that k's algo transforms a N-bit O(N^2) mult, into instead ~three~ (N/2)-bit mults
asciilifeform: (four would be the obvious but useless transform)
mod6: apparently this ends up being O(N^ln 3) or something
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: this is only relevant because machines do mults in like 18x the time they do adds.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually it remains relevant even if single-word mult is (as it is on some boxes) 1 cycle, same as add
mircea_popescu: it does ?
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: karatsuba et al weren't even working with computers. but wrestling with question of how much, abstractly, work, does multiplication per se entail.
mircea_popescu: if single - word mult is same as add, there's no benefit to not simply multing the parts.
asciilifeform: nope.
asciilifeform: btw iirc this is an ~actual~ exercise in knuth -- to show that you still need karatsuba on a box where add(word,word) takes same time as mult(word,word)
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i bought a can of coolant, it's FLUORESCENT GREEN << The dye is to tell you which of several incompatible types of coolant it is. Mixing GREEN and ORANGE coolant is a good way to introduce rust to one's engine block cooling passages.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : ultimately we are dealing with ~multiword~ ops, and the complexity of how the multing actually happens, comes into play )
asciilifeform brb
mircea_popescu: which one is orange ?
mircea_popescu: this was ethylene glycol iirc
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> possibly the practice had spread to auto world << Coolant color coded with dye. Refrigerant available with optional dye for leak finding.
mod6: <+BingoBoingo> <mircea_popescu> i bought a can of coolant, it's FLUORESCENT GREEN << he dye is to tell you which of several incompatible types of coolant it is. Mixing GREEN and ORANGE coolant is a good way to introduce rust to one's engine block cooling passages. << iirc, all vehicles pre-1995 or so used the green coolant.
mod6: post, most seem to now use this "dex-cool" stuff which is pink or orange. you are not supposed to mix them, no. and as bb says, can introduce rust into the water jacket of the block.
mod6: anyway, the wisdom seems to be, use what's described in the manual or even written on the radiator cap. fwiw, never open a radiator cap while engine is hot - contents under pressure.
mod6: (noshit.jpg) et. al.
mod6: im not sure why they switched to the new coolant. they always just said, "lasts longer, etc." but i wonder if it was really due to the proliferation of aluminum blocks.
mircea_popescu: prolly.
mod6: asciilifeform: thanks for the hex example.
mircea_popescu: which brings the mixing : putting orange in green engine is bad. orange engine can run with green fine
shinohai: So apparently all one needs to destroy a US destroyer is container ship: http://archive.is/4GbGw
mircea_popescu: shinohai cardboard car for looking at not for driving in the rain.
mod6: mircea_popescu: this is actually what a guy at auto store told me recently too; but other fellas have told me, "if you wanna be 100% sure you're not going to introduce any problems, just use what it says in the manual or on cap."
mircea_popescu: well sure.
mod6: you fixin up the bmw?
mircea_popescu: ah, done already.
mod6: ah cool :]
mircea_popescu: new "cvasi-consumables"
mircea_popescu: like you know, springs, brake pads, etc
mod6: sure.
mircea_popescu much rather buy used and then put these new at own shop than buy "certified" bla bla and have to put new ones anyway in coupla years
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the pets do own shocks, brakes, etc. work ??
mircea_popescu: huh ?
mircea_popescu: ah, no.
asciilifeform: well you did say 'own shop' so i pictured.
mircea_popescu: a, no, commercial item.
asciilifeform: aah
mircea_popescu: thing is, if chick's good at mechanics she should do it all day, and if not never.
mircea_popescu: that's kinda my objection with the whole "in my kitchen" outlook. if your kitchen makes stuff that's any good it should be a factory, and if not it should forget about it and just be a kitchen
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: problem with this pov is that certain classes of things ~only~ can ever happen in a serious-kitchen, and will never in factory.
asciilifeform: of whatever description.
mircea_popescu: hey, in theory no difference between sextoy's anterior and posterior openings. in practice she sometimes winces.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: tho potty humour aside, i suspect the actual dispute is re the meaning of factory
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm quite familiar with the original meaning of the word
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: and not fixated on, e.g., conveyor belt or whatnot trappings
asciilifeform: the operative concept is 'for money'
mircea_popescu: sure, originally. what i had in mind above is that your idea of "serious kitchen" is probably my idea of factory but without any capital goods management.
mircea_popescu: if i buy coffee grindewr for kitchen, it is to work whenever the girls want coffee ground.
mircea_popescu: but if i buy coffee grinder for factory, it is to work at all times, and girls will change their schedule to keep it going, not it to accomodate them.
BingoBoingo: <mod6> im not sure why they switched to the new coolant. they always just said, "lasts longer, etc." but i wonder if it was really due to the proliferation of aluminum blocks. << Dex-cool is silicate free so gentler on Aluminum. Also something something organic/inorganic dopants differing between verde and naranja
mircea_popescu: which is why if my place costs 100 to rent and 80 to man, it will be open 24/7 and so it will cost 100 to rent and 240 to man.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> which brings the mixing : putting orange in green engine is bad. orange engine can run with green fine << Orange engine runs green fine, IF orange is drained out.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall the thread with the gardener ?
mircea_popescu: gthe one making tomatoes on windowsil ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-30#1650052 << that one☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-30 13:58 asciilifeform: 'If I employ a gardener, I have to earn £3 for every £1 he can actually spend, because everything is taxed twice, first as my income, then as his.' << not only still true in today's reich, but today it'd be 10 : 1 .
mircea_popescu: ah
asciilifeform: not everybody has mircea_popescu's ultralowfriction pairs of auxiliary hands.
asciilifeform: and so asciilifeform spent much of today cutting motherfucking grass.
BingoBoingo: How "much of today"?
asciilifeform: ~all
asciilifeform: and still not done
mircea_popescu: funny, guy has been cutting my grass all day also.
BingoBoingo: Come on it's a standardized 30-45 minute task or your lawnmower is the wrong size
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it's a whole day job. crazy angles en la loma.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: not if you let it go for ~year
mircea_popescu: ahahahaha
asciilifeform: and 1,001 hills.
mircea_popescu: indisciplined poolboy alf. lets go for year
asciilifeform: the funny bit is that the needed commercial arrangement 'i call on a saturday and it happens THIS MOTHERFUCKING HOUR while i'm out to dinner' is not available where i live
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: not if you let it go for ~year << That isn't mowing. That is harvesting hay. Hope the crop was dry.
asciilifeform: the only offered variant is 'subscription and it happens during business hours when you, idiot, are sitting in the room an' trying to work'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform used to be local kids. but now local kids are too precious cuntlets to let out of deepfreeze
asciilifeform: sorta goes back to mircea_popescu's 'who gets to bend around the schedule of what' item
mircea_popescu: all my shit goes back to all my olther shit, it's crazy. i was just contemplating this earlier.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> the funny bit is that the needed commercial arrangement 'i call on a saturday and it happens THIS MOTHERFUCKING HOUR while i'm out to dinner' is not available where i live << The is lawnmowing service since the exit of children is priced based on amoritization of mowing equipment
asciilifeform: aha, how else
BingoBoingo: Certainly not on warm body cost.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, the problem is excess of services amoratizing 10-50 kilodollar monsters and few amoratizing 21" machines
asciilifeform: actually problem is the theme park of usa 'suburbia' demands this peculiar prop, 'mass of grass'
asciilifeform: somehow it is not permitted to have houses reasonable distance apart from one another, without bunch of green liquishit in the middle
BingoBoingo: Mass of grass is fine. Where else do you get hay from?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo knows very well that none of this 'hay' goes anywhere but city dump, at considerable expense
BingoBoingo: And without grass roots how do you keep mud from washing away?
asciilifeform: ferroconcrete.
mircea_popescu: make a compost pile alf. srsly.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually i have my cutter set to 'in-place'
mircea_popescu: but compost pile is better.
BingoBoingo: Spz you want to plant tomatoes? Now you need 2-cycle concrete saw and rotary hammer before you can even till!
mircea_popescu: in place brings ants. in pile brings birds.
mircea_popescu: what do you prefer, bird or ant ?
asciilifeform: funnily enough it's already set to bird
asciilifeform: ( they are right here, as we speak, devouring )
mircea_popescu: hm
asciilifeform: back upstack -- i spend considerable time doing this and similar nonsense because : high-friction
mircea_popescu did some grass cutting, enjoyed being out with the trees
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't live in 'green hell' where ~100% humidity and 40c
mircea_popescu: not accidentally, either!
asciilifeform: and the mosquitoes, ground wasps, other lovelies
mircea_popescu: but yes, upstack : the ability to say "here, do this. ok, you'll be doing this from now on until further orders" is invaluable.
BingoBoingo: Maybe alf needs to mow with a more fun machine?
mircea_popescu: contrary to what undersexed young men may think, the prime utility of the harem also.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'd luvv to mow with flamethrower. or disintegrator mean.
asciilifeform: esp if the latter worked on city hall et al
mircea_popescu: you can get laid at any bar. you can't ghet decent help anywhere
asciilifeform: ^^
asciilifeform: *beam
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform has not read the story of hyenas and haggling i take it :D
asciilifeform: did read, lol.
mircea_popescu: was there, also man with flamethrower
asciilifeform: naturam expellas furca (tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: there's nothing natural abou city hall.
asciilifeform: story gets even moar pathetic, the battery (i shit thee not) died in my 'furca' for 2nd time today
asciilifeform: and takes 4x longer to charge than discharge..
mircea_popescu: homosexuality is natural. city hall -- height of perversion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mine were corded
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these work great maybe in sane house where ground is straight and not 1,001 items for cord to catch
mircea_popescu: aha. this is why i did it in timisoara, flatland, and not here.
asciilifeform: the petrol-engined things, aside from vibration ( can't use my hands for day+ after ) and acrid smoke , also made of shit, i've thrown out 2 (after attempting various orc repairs, cleaned carb etc) in frustration
asciilifeform: the humble grass cutter went the way of the pc -- you get to choose between affordable rubbish and 'must amortize and work this for pay' golden toilet
mircea_popescu: try a scythe
mircea_popescu: great for your back, and from experience as fast as the crapomachines
asciilifeform: would , but won't satisfy city hall's 'max length'
BingoBoingo: There's still reel mower as long as you can get traction on your turf
mircea_popescu: huh ?!
BingoBoingo: !~google reel mower
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Amazon.com: Fiskars 18 Inch Staysharp Max Reel Mower : Patio ...: <https://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-Inch-Staysharp-Reel-Mower/dp/B0045VL1OO>; Reel Lawn Mowers - Lawn Mowers - Outdoor Power Equipment ...: <http://www.homedepot.com/b/Outdoors-Outdoor-Power-Equipment-Lawn-Mowers-Reel-Lawn-Mowers/N-5yc1vZc5av>; Reel Mowers vs. Rotary Lawn Mowers - from People Powered ...: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i got one. problem is that it needs SCHEDULE
asciilifeform: as in weekly
asciilifeform: i ain't doing this weekly.
asciilifeform: or biweekly.
BingoBoingo: Well, glyphosate?
BingoBoingo: Or better still Imazapyr
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if you can find me an agentorange where the bloody shit STAYS GREEN 4evah, i'll buy for its weight in silver.
shinohai: Don't like to mow? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SJEUFF4/ref=asc_df_B00SJEUFF45034810/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B00SJEUFF4&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167146984279&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5746195614524956660&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=21164&hvlocphy=9010851&hvtargid=pla-308200867139
asciilifeform: not-having-grass is also banned around here
BingoBoingo: !~google Ortho groundclear
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Ortho GroundClear Vegetation Killer Concentrate-Ortho: <http://www.ortho.com/smg/goprod/ortho-groundclear-vegetation-killer-concentrate/prod70096>; Ortho GroundClear 1 Gal. Concentrate Vegetation Killer-0430510 ...: <http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ortho-GroundClear-1-Gal-Concentrate-Vegetation-Killer-0430510/100001652>; Ortho GroundClear 2 gal. Concentrate Vegetation Killer-0430610 ...: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It's just a wide fenceline!
asciilifeform: we actually had a d00d here who did this
asciilifeform: didn't fly
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sounds like the solution to your problem would be bonzai grass.
asciilifeform: 'neighbour's grass' is part of the mandatory fantasyland these folx live in
BingoBoingo: !~google bella bluegrass
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bluegrass Bella Grass Plugs| Bluegrass Bella Plugs for shade and ...: <http://www.highcountrygardens.com/sustainable-lawns/grass-plugs/blue-grass-bella>; Bella Bluegrass - Todd Valley Farms: <https://toddvalleyfarms.com/BellaBluegrass.htm>; No Mow Bella Blue Grass | Bella blue grass - Roberta's Garden's: <http://robertasgardens.net/groundcovers/no-mow-bellar-blue-grass-70-plug-tray.html>
BingoBoingo: ^ Dwarfism'd grass
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: still not magic pill, the weeds happily grow in it, even taller than the grass per se
asciilifeform: the only actual solution is to leave the accursed jail. but so far aint got to where.
BingoBoingo: Weeds and grass will follow
asciilifeform: funnily, i could easily afford, say, a gardener, but refuse to pay the equivalent of 8 gardeners so that obummercare and shameekas.
asciilifeform: ( and so 'gardeners' are not really a thing, here in monkeystan )
mircea_popescu: maybe try clover ?
mircea_popescu: nopt alfalfa tho, that grows tall