log☇︎
273 entries in 0.883s
asciilifeform: they had genuine z80 !?
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I think in this case it was a z80 clone
asciilifeform: decimation: i think every sovblok pesthole had at least two dozen homebrew published z80 things
mircea_popescu: so, why ? why did the geniuses of mit fare so very much worse than the rag tag band of idiots and imbeciles coding for z80 in their bedrooms ?
mircea_popescu: in any case, claiming a z80 and a pentium 6 are "99.84% identical" on the grounds of mass spectrometry is about as apt.
assbot: Down to the silicon: how the Z80's registers are implemented ... ( http://bit.ly/1F9IZaE )
pete_dushenski: http://www.righto.com/2014/10/how-z80s-registers-are-implemented-down.html << since 'z80' receives so many mentions around here, this may be of interest to log readers
asciilifeform: z80
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right after we can make even a z80 yes
mircea_popescu: jurov: if it's possible to place 4 such transistors on mm2 then z80 would fit into 20cm2 << this, basically, is my point. 20 sqcm is not really a big deal. and the number of people who might do it just to play the original Chaos on their pet rock is not negligible.
mircea_popescu: jurov: lol good discussion started from the z80. now, what if we start with piece of germanium/galena/carborundum/whatever << si carbide prolly most promising, or maybe some particular graphite formulations.
jurov: if it's possible to place 4 such transistors on mm2 then z80 would fit into 20cm2
jurov: lol good discussion started from the z80. now, what if we start with piece of germanium/galena/carborundum/whatever
assbot: cpu-collection.de >> Zilog >> Z80 ... ( http://bit.ly/19yZZMH )
asciilifeform: http://www.cpu-collection.de/?tn=0&l0=co&l1=Zilog&l2=Z80#Z80A8400W2NA
asciilifeform: http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=104957136420897&w=2 << re: z80 thread
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> jurov: z80 is closer to teletype than to any modern cpu << again nope. here's a suggested exercise for everyone: take the z80 (find a die shot or whatever) and zoom it out to make the transistors discrete. how much physical space will this occupy? how many tonnes of copper wire? how many hundreds kWatt of power used? for chillers? << Sometime in 2013 on Tardstalk to celebrate advent of the "ASIC Age" I drunkenly pr
asciilifeform: jurov: z80 is closer to teletype than to any modern cpu << again nope. here's a suggested exercise for everyone: take the z80 (find a die shot or whatever) and zoom it out to make the transistors discrete. how much physical space will this occupy? how many tonnes of copper wire? how many hundreds kWatt of power used? for chillers?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ... making something like a z80, as long as it can be made at home, with equipment costing about what a z80 cost << absolutely. but it is important to understand that a z80 (or even intel 4004) is far, far closer to the 'pentium' than to anything that has ever been built entirely at home from discretes
mircea_popescu: the reason z80 era was secure was because governments, generally, COULD NOT be involved
mircea_popescu: i merely wish to point out that i had better games on the z80 than on the ipad.
jurov: z80 is closer to teletype than to any modern cpu
jurov: how long it takes a z80 to make or verify ECDSA signature?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: but to somehow lay out electrical logic elements at the customary densities << you're right that it's the wrong thought, and also, "customary" - honestly even making something like a z80, as long as it can be made at home, with equipment costing about what a z80 cost, is well worth it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what z80. mos 6502.
mircea_popescu: http://sexylosers.com/239.html << bwahaha z80 strip poker ?
asciilifeform: iirc all ti graphical calculators but 89 and 92 models were z80 boxes.
asciilifeform: z80
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Gameboy was straight Z80
asciilifeform: (which had actual z80, but nothing resembling nintendo's peripherals)
BingoBoingo: I overclocked a couple for people who had pirate Z80 (gameboy) games
mircea_popescu: if a z80 was worth 40 1980 dollars.
BingoBoingo: cazalla: You and your non-z80 based nintendos
mircea_popescu: not since the z80 days anywya
mircea_popescu: "Is that a real program or is that something somebody wrote?" << ah yea, now this makes sense. i had the exact same notion, for exactly the same reason. a "real program" was something that didn't need to use the z80 basic interpreter, wasn't editable for this reason, and this immutability was cool. then on the msdos system, .exe binaries exactly mapped on this same structure of cool.
assbot: An Interview With Bil Herd - Zany Z80 Zygology | The Amp Hour Electronics Podcast
decimation: incidentally, there's a 2 hour podcast interview with Bil Herd of Commodore here (featuring that annoying australian): http://www.theamphour.com/222-an-interview-with-bil-herd-zany-z80-zygology/
asciilifeform reads the logs and finds the very pertinent unix-on-z80 atrocity
decimation: it seems like a port of minix to the z80 kinda
X-Rob: asciilifeform: I'm a collector of old Z80 hardware.
mircea_popescu: i'm like... dude i used to make that stuff, in basic, on a z80
mircea_popescu: i edit everything. i actually learned to program by randomly poking and peeking in the z80 memory.
X-Rob: BingoBoingo: It's amusing that the single 'LDIR' Z80 opcode took until SSE2 to be duplicated. 1 clock cycle to move any 8 bit chunk of memory around.
X-Rob: BingoBoingo: Z80 would be my favourite, as that's what I grew up with. I actually collect vintage computers.
mircea_popescu: in this spirit : my old z80 clone had an english "codeword" instruction set printed out right on the kbd, as was fashionable at the time.
mircea_popescu: back in the day on the z80 you could define the 8x8 bitmap of a glyph
mircea_popescu: my z80 keyboard had plain language on it : load, merge, save etc
bounce: generating 4kbit keys takes over a minute? try validating a 1kbit signature on a z80 (certain ti calculators with signed firmware)
Diablo-D3: yeah z80 is the best 8bit microcontroller cpu ever
bounce: it's a good example since (I'm told, haven't investigated) various smart card type things have a z80-type core on board
BingoBoingo: bounce: I like the Z80 as an example to suppose.
bounce: you were talking about z80, and I thought it was interesting enough to explore that a bit. still have a kaypro in an attic somewhere. should probably dust if off some time
BingoBoingo: bounce: Did I ever offer Z80 as an only option? I would kill for a multicore gigahertz class Coldfire dev board rated for server use
bounce: anyway, mind sticking to the topic and present some viable engineering choices that'll work on z80? (as distinct from your personal preferences that work plenty fine on your desktop)
bounce: too bad the z80 doesn't do that
BingoBoingo: Still which of {C,Java} works best on Z80?
BingoBoingo: Java programmers who merely stitch together libraries and want embeded chips capable of running Java when a Z80 would be fine
kanzure: "oh a few hundred thousand lines of terrible, shitty z80 asm? why of course i'll reverse engineer that!" https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal
asciilifeform: supply of soviet z80 clones is a non-renewable resource after all.
gribble: Jumping Jack (1983)(Imagine Software) ROM < ZX Spectrum Z80 ...: <http://www.emuparadise.me/ZX_Spectrum_(Z80)_ROMs/Jumping_Jack_(1983)(Imagine_Software)/79251>; Jumping Jack • ZX Spectrum online - Torinak: <http://torinak.com/qaop#!jumpingjack>; Universal/UPL Game List: <https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/spies.cgi?action=url&type=info&page=UniversalGameList.txt>
mircea_popescu: ;;google jumping jack z80
mircea_popescu: nubbins` that korea story reminds me of playing old z80 games
mircea_popescu: it's the z80 calling the 386 itopathic, never the other way around
mircea_popescu: kinda the end of it, even z80 had a strip poker.
mircea_popescu: in that gaming consoles at the time were also z80 clones)
mircea_popescu: (and the z80 before the pc, which i suppose could be argued to be a gaming console,
mircea_popescu: i wonder if bfl next step, after tackling the android miner market, is to make z80 miner software.
mircea_popescu: z80 was > 8080 iirc
Korbman: early Z80 was 4 micrometers
mircea_popescu: that box actually looks like the custom power unit i had for my old z80
mircea_popescu: .g saboteur z80
mircea_popescu: they literally broadcast the code. you could load it into a z80 with a cable
mircea_popescu: before that i had a bunch of z80 clones