asciilifeform: kakobrekla: if you wanted to, you could've determined mr. ddos by iterative kicking / process of deduction - long ago.

asciilifeform: but where'd be the sport in that.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: here's an elegant, though likewise unsporting pill against ddosman. require anyone outside of L1 to enter uncloaked on pain of instakick. there will be a set of 'lurkers' remaining who never die. among them will be our hero, who is then readily deduced.

asciilifeform: of course, this is largely a waste of time when one can simply walk away with the chumpnet (entirely unsecured, as discussed in past thread on subject)

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there isn't a bot.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=16-12-2014#954024 ☝︎

asciilifeform: and below.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: in that sense, yes

asciilifeform: but there isn't a 'botnet'

asciilifeform: there's just a sea of idiot boxes that should have been booted from the net long ago.

asciilifeform: by isp.

asciilifeform: 'amplification' idiocy is trivially tested for, and any isp which doesn't yank the offending lusers ought by all rights to be killed upstream

asciilifeform: see also 1990s, 'usenet death penalty.'

asciilifeform: (precedent)

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: wanna idle for >5 min, get in wot.

asciilifeform: so then.

asciilifeform: then we have a fungus among us.

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: well yes, shorthand here.

asciilifeform: anyone who has voice, gets to idle as much as he likes

asciilifeform: others - only long enough to see who to ask for voice.

asciilifeform: that was, i think, the idea.

asciilifeform: naturally mr ddos will have nothing to do but move on to qntra, trilema, bitbet...

asciilifeform: they are already casualties.

asciilifeform: and i can only speak for myself, but i neglect voicing people because they don't ask.

asciilifeform: now they will have a reason to ask.

asciilifeform: the idlers who 'i'll join a hundred bitcoin-related channels, they're all the same to me!' are contemptible.

asciilifeform: (but i think mircea_popescu already said this)

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: nah

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: easy spamatron

asciilifeform: registered << same easy spamatron

asciilifeform: anything mr spam can get $maxint of purely by perl script is useless

asciilifeform: this includes gribble-regged keys, incidentally

asciilifeform: we would be creating an incentive to flood wot with crud

asciilifeform: hence l2.

asciilifeform: so mr spam will walk them.

asciilifeform: like dogs.

asciilifeform: by perl script.

asciilifeform: remember that it's a wot

asciilifeform: you don't kill folks with a nuke by rolling it and crushing them under it

asciilifeform: you set it off, as designed

asciilifeform: wot is to be used as a wot to eliminate precisely this class of pest

asciilifeform: among others

asciilifeform: how else to regard ?

asciilifeform: !s the cold equations

asciilifeform: wants less contempt? must become less contemptible.

asciilifeform: demonstrably.

asciilifeform: decimation: that, or to make a good introduction of himself.

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: no. that just relocates the roaches, not kills.

asciilifeform: i like the idea of nuking drooling idlers who have no visible purpose

asciilifeform: ddos or no ddos

asciilifeform: anyone who is kicked and auto-rejoins is ipso facto bot ?

asciilifeform: incidentally, what do we need unvoiced users for at all? noobs can find the log www, and figure out who to pm from it

asciilifeform: decimation: nope.

asciilifeform: decimation: i personally had cloak fail from a malfunctioning (hacked?) freenode node.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: +i ?

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: too much work << wouldn't it be approximately a one-liner? add to +i list upon voicing by assbot, remove when logged off / devoiced ?

asciilifeform: the observation that, on account of the log existing, we don't need human idlers for anything at all, was correct

asciilifeform: decimation: cryptoprot ?

asciilifeform: decimation: it has a name.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: how many of these we get now ?

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: they are not necessarily to be refused, but there ought to be slightly higher expectations of work for the n00b to do in order to merit invite

asciilifeform: 'hi please let me in' should not do

asciilifeform: n00b should be expected to say at least a complete sentence re: why he should be let in to talk

asciilifeform: if he merely wants to listen - straight to www log.

asciilifeform: decimation: you didn't miss it. i never said

asciilifeform: decimation: if you give a damn, it was called - on my own machine, which at present, is the only place it exists - 'kapelle'

asciilifeform: decimation: as in Die Rote Kapelle.

asciilifeform: but this is not a published gadget, and should not be regarded as proof - or even suggestion - of anything in particular.

asciilifeform: i'm almost sorry i mentioned it, now folks will expect it to exist

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: haha, for what

asciilifeform: devoice -> uninvite

asciilifeform: mechanical.

asciilifeform: '!down' ought to suffice

asciilifeform: '!up' -> invite

asciilifeform: can use same command, no ?

asciilifeform: just different logic in it

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: we're discussing perhaps a ~1kb patch to kako's bot, rather than a serious project

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but if you want to contribute a box or two for a 'parachute' network for #b-a, don't let this stop you

asciilifeform: lol

asciilifeform: does fleanode support 'knocking' ?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you probably know, but this is not the only problem with fleanode.

asciilifeform: i'm not sure whether the fact of something being planted in an 'eyes' country or not is even interesting. it's like the old saw about how a smoking section in a restaurant is quite like a pissing section in swimming pool.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: if mp likes n00bs, then let's see if he agrees that this should make their ordeal more rational (if not lighter) than it is currently.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: imho it will produce more interesting noobs - a challenge piques interest, selects for folks who aren't vegetables

asciilifeform: l0l

asciilifeform: actually he can

asciilifeform: seems that, in his absence, i'm filling in for him in role as 'cruel sargeant for n00bs'

asciilifeform: at least for this thread.

asciilifeform: (soon i must go and [censored] and someone must take over!)

asciilifeform: el coronel no tiene quien le escriba, полковнику никто не пишет, полковника никто не ждет.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: reference to 'oregon trail' colonists, or to breaking on the wheel ?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lol, toy os users only

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: should be easy fix, no ?

asciilifeform: wake him up ?

asciilifeform doesn't grasp how this makes anything more secure

asciilifeform: less

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: '+I' iirc

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: not only for ops, either

asciilifeform: can make generic list of folks who are always invited

asciilifeform: PeterL: ideally, no

asciilifeform: ;;rate Luke-Jr -1 persistent loon, defiler of gentoo, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-12-2014#955095 or inquire within ☝︎

asciilifeform: ;;gettrust assbot luke-jr

asciilifeform: !down Luke-Jr

asciilifeform: aww.

asciilifeform: mike_c: banner points you to www log. then pm of the folks appearing therein.

asciilifeform: mike_c: sure.

asciilifeform: 'However, the door doesn’t automatically unlock when the interior handle is pulled—and therein lay the problem for the Smiths. According to the Times, the couple had been led to believe by their Mazda dealership that the key fob was the only way to unlock the doors; this mistaken impression, coupled with the fact that the vehicle was parked in their garage and that it was apparently too dark to clearly see the interior swi

asciilifeform: tches, led to the nearly fatal overnight stay.'

asciilifeform: vegetables.

asciilifeform: what a sad thing that they did not die.

asciilifeform: these were adults, with working hands.

asciilifeform: '... and they vote!'

asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: just like your victims, 'there was plenty of warning', 'no one unwitting', 'there were no victims'

asciilifeform: mike_c: idea was, we let them in when they are actual people with an actual reason for wanting in

asciilifeform: beyond 'let me drool in this here bowl'

asciilifeform: PeterL: ddosed by whom ?

asciilifeform: PeterL: idea is that the idler parked here by mr ddos will die.

asciilifeform: they can listen!

asciilifeform: on kako's www log.

asciilifeform: why?

asciilifeform: why does this need to happen in split-second parcels?

asciilifeform: PeterL: understand, it isn't as if they can freely idle here now. ddos bot takes care of this.

asciilifeform: PeterL: proposed change transfers the initiative to actual people, and takes away whatever piece of it the spammer had.

asciilifeform: spammer should have - none.

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: think of it this way:

asciilifeform: we already have something quite like this system. just that it is being administered by an enemy.

asciilifeform: his head.

asciilifeform: at any rate, the folks whose gadget this is, can decide

asciilifeform: i can only suggest.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: aha

asciilifeform: or ask nanotube to remove the peculiar must-be-in-channel thing

asciilifeform: (i'd love to hear a rationale for it)

asciilifeform: which issue?

asciilifeform: if gribble is down today, kakobrekla (and mircea_popescu ?) are still stuck manually upping folks

asciilifeform: PeterL: nobody but ops

asciilifeform: PeterL: just like today, if gribble or assbot are down, only ops have voice

asciilifeform: iirc

asciilifeform: PeterL: aha

asciilifeform: ops can operate the whole thing in manually-cranked mode, afaik

asciilifeform: when they're awake

asciilifeform: aha.

asciilifeform: just pointing out answer to 'can anything at all work when all bots are dead'

asciilifeform: that being, that all the controls have manual emergency cranks

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: what means 'move auth to assbot'

asciilifeform: one of the things that always gave me the willies about the classic (nanotube's) wot is that operations are not signed ☟︎

asciilifeform: whatever happened to notarybot?

asciilifeform: PeterL: you have to - yes. mr i-owned-fleanode nsa clerk - no.

asciilifeform: PeterL: likewise annotations can be diddled

asciilifeform: on account of not having been signed

asciilifeform: and likewise timestamps

asciilifeform: nanotube's wot works, afaik, thus far, but a good chunk of it still lives in the old pre-cryptographic universe

asciilifeform: PeterL: simply define a canonical wot as consisting of gpg-signed 'rate' commands

asciilifeform: with the signature encompassing the full text of said command

asciilifeform: decimation: that's ugly

asciilifeform: decimation: nope

asciilifeform: unless you move the whole thing to a dedicated box with own irc. but then you advertise its ip in public

asciilifeform: and back to the start.

asciilifeform: or, at best, to mircea's suggestion of building a dedicated #b-a irc net.

asciilifeform: re: wot: (question to all present) - how often do you re-read your own wot history?

asciilifeform: to check for anything you don't remember having done (or done to you)

asciilifeform: i'll guess, very rarely.

asciilifeform: even if you do, there is no guarantee that other readers see the same thing you see

asciilifeform: diddled, e.g., bitcoin-otc.com, can serve up anything it wants

asciilifeform: a diddle gribble - same

asciilifeform: and guess what state of the art here is

asciilifeform: blockchain.

asciilifeform: i dare to invoke the 'parachute theorem' and say now, that when wot is taken seriously by intelligent and resourceful enemies, it will be rather late. ☟︎

asciilifeform: and the formerly harmless softness and promise-based mechanisms will become serious holes in the armour.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nope

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there is precisely one worthwhile blockchain.

asciilifeform: (iirc namecoin was recently shot in the head)

asciilifeform: nanotube: afaik everyone who frequents this channel is now cloaked

asciilifeform: !up undata

asciilifeform does not know if nanotube is aware of the reason for this thread

asciilifeform: nanotube: there is a ddos artist paid (apparently) to carry out an endless quest to interfere with #b-a and related projects. presently he has an idler parked here.

asciilifeform: nanotube: it points a ddosnet consisting of ntp and ssdp 'amplification' bots (misconfigured routers, typically) at the victim.

asciilifeform: nanotube: many new users log in without cloak. and occasionally cloaks fail for reasons which do not reduce to user error

asciilifeform: there are, i surmise, parties which are actively trying to induce these error conditions en masse.

asciilifeform: it is not hard to guess who they are.

asciilifeform: (the error-inducers)

asciilifeform: there was also a mass compromise of freenode boxes in sept. and who knows when else, and on what scale.

asciilifeform: the channels-shared-by-gribble thing also means that ddos idler bot, if expelled from #b-a, can move to one of the other channels.

asciilifeform: where the hooliganism can continue

asciilifeform: ultimately the very need for 'cloaks' is a bizarre misfeature

asciilifeform: from a pre-cryptographic dark age

asciilifeform: (or, if you prefer, golden age, 'garden of eden')

asciilifeform: if i understand correctly, nanotube's explanation resolves to this being an anti-mitm mechanism

asciilifeform: ?

asciilifeform: isomorphic to mitm.

asciilifeform: nanotube: incidentally, what is to become of the present wot when a hypothetical 'everything is signed' wot is built ?

asciilifeform: nanotube: everyone gets to re-send their collected ratings with signature ?

asciilifeform: nanotube: we were contemplating ways to expel the ddos idler from the channel in a permanent and generic way.

asciilifeform: nanotube: the only readily apparent way is '+i'

asciilifeform: nanotube: with inviter mechanism bolted onto assbot

asciilifeform: nanotube: except there wouldn't be one. people would be asked to read kakobrekla's www log.

asciilifeform: if they wish to lurk.

asciilifeform: they read kakobrekla's www log, see who to pm, make a brief case for being invited

asciilifeform: nanotube: he will have to go beyond passing the turing test, and into fabricating an interesting and invite-worthy personality each time.

asciilifeform: nanotube: if he can do this, he deserves to be here.

asciilifeform: nanotube: let's look from another angle. right now, noobs are virtually banned from #b-a. but the ban is enforced by a hooligan, not by any of us

asciilifeform: nanotube: my suggestion was to expel the enemy with an only slightly less annoying mechanism that is at least controlled by actual people, and not by spamming scum

asciilifeform: and therefore functions predictably and perhaps in some way constructively.

asciilifeform: nanotube: it can only work if folks can authenticate with assbot (and hence with gribble, or equivalent) without exposing hostname

asciilifeform: separate auth to assbot would work, but how to feed through wot ?

asciilifeform: synchronized copy ?

asciilifeform: decimation: because ugly

asciilifeform: weirdo protocol that would only by happenstance operate over irc

asciilifeform: decimation: right now there is no ready mechanism (except in my experiment, described earlier) for pronouncing ephemeral ('hot', machine-readable) keys for rapid signing

asciilifeform: and even if there were, it would be unsuitable for safety-critical signatures (e.g., wot ratings)

asciilifeform: at any rate, the correct way to use it would be to have a proggy emulate an irc server and connect ordinary client to it

asciilifeform: so as to have the ui we are accustomed to

asciilifeform: to the extent it makes sense to do it

asciilifeform: hardwired dependence on pastebin then ?

asciilifeform: seems shaky

asciilifeform: if pasting a signed ephemeral message, no need

asciilifeform: but it can still go down, or lose bits selectively

asciilifeform: why?

asciilifeform: not encrypted. signed.

asciilifeform: actually it'd have to be encrypted, or mitm vector.

asciilifeform: picture dr. evil sitting on 'pastebin', waiting.

asciilifeform: !up undata

asciilifeform: iirc someone suggested this

asciilifeform: assbot with synchronized copy of gribble wot.

asciilifeform: then, if you want to rate, still have to auth with gribble again though

asciilifeform: annoying.

asciilifeform: ^

asciilifeform: eventually wot must consist of signed packets.

asciilifeform: afaik this was probably obvious to everyone from the start.

asciilifeform: decimation: why ?

asciilifeform: decimation: nobody cancelled flood-banning

asciilifeform: no actual human transmits $maxint whatevers from a single ip per second/hour/etc

asciilifeform: decimation: you're entirely correct that this will eventually be a thing, though. hence the need for stateless, single-packet auth hellos.

asciilifeform: as in my experiment.

asciilifeform: easiest to move to custom si.

asciilifeform: other nice thing about signed packets is that it no longer matters where they came from.

asciilifeform: can be another link.

asciilifeform: or shortwave.

asciilifeform: or courier.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: folks suggested assbot having a synchronized copy of gribble's wot

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: and opening the gates using it

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: this would not require nanotube making any change to gribble, but would add an annoying extra step of having to auth a second time for rating

asciilifeform: aha

asciilifeform: me? i don't care

asciilifeform: but i imagine some of the folks here would be annoyed

asciilifeform: if only out of principle

asciilifeform: 'we do not go through weird gymnastics on account of terrorists' or the like

asciilifeform: let's see what mircea thinks when he gets back from his atomic dirigible voyage or wherever

asciilifeform: decimation: i can't picture forgoing a cockroach repellent simply because it may move the roaches to your neighbour

asciilifeform: decimation: i'll take mr spam's word re: him having been paid to vandalize #b-a rather than -otc

asciilifeform: 'His team aims to complete an operating system designed for The Machine, called Linux++...'

asciilifeform: ^ c/unix/extant turdolade

asciilifeform: snore.

asciilifeform: i don't care if it's made out of unicorn tears.

asciilifeform: !up undata

asciilifeform: decimation: not hybrid, if their literature is to be believed, but rather a 'flash' fast and durable enough to substitute for dram entirely

asciilifeform: decimation: but it will be wasted on 1970s garbage os

asciilifeform: decimation: it was already abolished on 'palm pilot'

asciilifeform: big whoop.

asciilifeform: as if this were enough to be interesting.

asciilifeform: the real boojum is that c/unix/von neumann crapolade cannot abide the constraint of never-reboot.

asciilifeform: undata: 100% certain

asciilifeform: or there'd be no talk of google or arsebook etc. taking it up

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo had a ti-89 ?

asciilifeform misplaced both of his, is contemplating getting another

asciilifeform ought to sell his hp-16c

asciilifeform: can then buy a crate full of ti

asciilifeform: i am

asciilifeform: http://www.thimet.de/CalcCollection/Calculators/HP-16C/HP-16C-M.JPG

asciilifeform: i actually like the simplicity of it

asciilifeform: and the never-delay-after-keypress

asciilifeform: usually north of 200 usd

asciilifeform: 16c? hardly

asciilifeform: 48 - sure

asciilifeform: the history of the 16c is interesting, imho

asciilifeform: its very existence presumes that people program on paper, far from a computer

asciilifeform: no.

asciilifeform: that was 12c

asciilifeform: (financial)

asciilifeform: it, interestingly, is still produced!

asciilifeform: they're dirt-common and i have one also.

asciilifeform: 16c vanished with the age of programming-on-paper.

asciilifeform: of what is the 33/35s a dumber version ?

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what test ?

asciilifeform: decimation: there is a tradition in u.s. schools where folks can bring calculators to exams where they are known to be of no use

asciilifeform: decimation: calculator is a kind of child's 'security blanket' (psychiatric term of art)

asciilifeform: for all i know, they let students use laptop now, on exam.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: still use it, now that no exams ?

asciilifeform: aha

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ever 'overclock' ti-series machines for chums when in school ?

asciilifeform did

asciilifeform still has a small box of the variable capacitors used for this, somewhere, deep beneath eons of dust

asciilifeform: gameboy emulated on 89 (68k) or what

asciilifeform: or somehow modded to run on 83-6 series

asciilifeform: (which had actual z80, but nothing resembling nintendo's peripherals)

asciilifeform: hm.

asciilifeform: z80

asciilifeform: iirc all ti graphical calculators but 89 and 92 models were z80 boxes.

asciilifeform once owned a 85, then 86, then two separate incarnations of (68k) 89

asciilifeform never had the others

asciilifeform: it was more or less an 85 with extra ram

asciilifeform: the uninitiated wonder 'why program hp48 today'

asciilifeform: reasons are all described in my 'bed laptop' thread.

asciilifeform: mats: pre-crypto dark age.

asciilifeform: mats: relying on stone knives, bear skins, ip for authentication

asciilifeform: hp48 etc << hold in one hand in bed? yes! run on set of batteries for half a year - yes! usable outdoors - yes!

asciilifeform: now if there were a computer answering these - then i would buy.

asciilifeform: mats: among the most elementary 'leak' is links

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: is a signature from the current key required to change to a new key? << that or ragnarok

asciilifeform: srsly

asciilifeform: 'Turner's office did not respond to several requests for comment on why Congress went against the recommendation of Gen. Ray Odierno, the Army chief of staff, to suspend tank production.' << ahhahahaha lol

asciilifeform: what kind of 'the holiday' without tanks (in the streets)

asciilifeform: !s collarspace

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: bharara << roland freisler !

asciilifeform: brahaha!

asciilifeform: (see also 'muhaha', 'bwahaha', etc.)

asciilifeform: Potissimus: didja do it ?

asciilifeform: Potissimus: http://qntra.net/2014/12/btcxchange-ro-dispute-heats-up << that

asciilifeform: lol!

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu vacationing in pripyat', or in fukushima ?

asciilifeform: lol!!

asciilifeform: aha, 'without king in his head'

asciilifeform has, at most, a demented old colonel in his head, no royalty

asciilifeform: devotional sex << inana !?!

asciilifeform: babylon ?

asciilifeform: y'know, on the altar, on the pyramid

asciilifeform: where else.