⏐︎ 23234
mircea_popescu: the purpose of trees, to hear the bromeliaceae tell it, is to one day support one! and in fact all life on earth evolves towards that peak of creation, a parasite plant of little notice.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41650 @ 0.00044509 = 18.538 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform merely consider the fact that the politbureau did not customarily seek to include the general opinion of the populace. not exactly socialism, this, is it ?
mircea_popescu: the chinese pretend themselves communists, but really... the us is more advanced on the socialist path than they are.
asciilifeform: usa just solved the 'problem' of popular opinion in a rather different way.
joecool: distraction?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but at least the usian populace gets to pick which butt to be pictured bare.
mircea_popescu: the soviets had no equivalent input in the workings of pravda.
asciilifeform: really? i don't recall being asked - which butt.
mircea_popescu: you personally ? well no, that's not teh socialist way.
mircea_popescu: there's metrics, yo.
asciilifeform: aha.
chetty: but those are all made up
mircea_popescu: this entire sign things stuff we do is exactly antisocialist.
asciilifeform: in usa, they not only had better steel and semiconductors, back in the day, they also had better chumpatronics.
asciilifeform: which was the undoing.
asciilifeform: see also limonov's discussion re: 'hard' vs 'soft' totalitarianisms
joecool: <mircea_popescu> even stalin was (and roughly stayed) an anarchist. < would you expound on this a bit? I have never seen that viewpoint expressed
asciilifeform: 'hard' is when you end up needing to physically restrain people, actually shoot dissenters, etc.
mircea_popescu: joecool well, consider his early life. guy robbed banks and generally lived as an outlaw.
asciilifeform: 'soft' - when the entire concept of meaningful resistance becomes a hard problem
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00044868 = 7.1789 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: joecool on what grounds would you identify pre-1930 stalin as a socialist ?
joecool: mircea_popescu: ah so personally he ran his life as such is what you mean, not his government so much?
mircea_popescu: wait a second. what part of the "you folks are like blind kittens" is socialist, iyo ?
mircea_popescu: "i know better than you lot, you lot are stupid, not least of all for being a lot in the first place".
mircea_popescu: does this sound a lot like socialism to you ?
joecool: mircea_popescu: not thinking it was socialism, I just didn't consider it anarchism
mircea_popescu: he ran his government exactly like you'd expect a lifetime anarchist war hero to run a government.
mircea_popescu: broz tito did exactly the same thing.
asciilifeform: where are the mythical 'actual socialists' - and what is even the point of looking for them.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i linked a youtube of a pirvulescu attack on ceausescu.
undata: not to derail, but I have to paste this here: http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress
assbot: I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist and ostracizing | The Verge
mircea_popescu: that was exactly "career socialist vs anarchist that overtook the party" moment.
undata: apparently that guy's shirt is why women don't "science"
mircea_popescu: undata not sure why anyone cares what Chris Plante & Arielle Duhaime-Ross have to say on any topic.
mircea_popescu: they're the reason nobody reads the verge.
undata: mircea_popescu: representative of opinions you hear in Portland quite often
mircea_popescu: except i don't. :)
undata: ha, right.
mircea_popescu: * at that moment, undata was enlightened * lol
mircea_popescu: anyway, to be noted that the european space agency did it. the us relevancy, like the mass of the comet, withering away by the minute.
mircea_popescu recalls the eu space agency early on, such a risible attempt.
mircea_popescu: you know, back when the euro "didn't have a chance", and like the canadian dollar, traded under the usd.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's one for ya : a google for McIlroy produces a solid pages of derpage about some random kid playing golf.
asciilifeform: lol!
mircea_popescu: i have a lot of sympathy for kids trying to piece together some shard of understanding out of isaiah berlin, rory mcilroy and ronald mcdonald.
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/345DS4X.txt )
BingoBoingo: !b 3 ✂︎
BingoBoingo: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/beirut-cops-cant-tell-hipsters-from-jihadis.html
assbot: Beirut Cops Can’t Tell Hipsters From Jihadis -- NYMag
mircea_popescu: moreso than for their parents, trying to do the same out of marx, ziggler, carnegey and whatever other fitness trainers and pop-philosophers the almanacs would print.
mircea_popescu: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/unix-nature.html << not bad, incidentally.
gernika: cazalla might this be related enough to bitcoin to cover?: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-declares-new-currency-will-be-circulated-in-its-bid-to-establish-caliphate-across-syria-and-iraq-9859752.html
assbot: Isis declares new currency will be circulated in its bid to establish caliphate across Syria and Iraq - Middle East - World - The Independent
cazalla: gernika, are you trying to get me arrested for promoting ISIS?
gernika: No
asciilifeform: nah, for promoting gold.
mircea_popescu: lol that bad is it ?
cazalla: mircea_popescu, they kicked down the door of one muslim family for having a plastic sword so yeah
mircea_popescu: nuts
BingoBoingo: Eh, I'll write an ISIS coin article then.
cazalla: gernika, i can't say i'm that interested in promoting altcoins but thanks for the tip
gernika: cazalla are gold and silver altcoins?
gernika: Just seems to run contrary to the usgovmedia claim that ISIS is using bitcoin.
cazalla: gernika, we have bitcoin so yeah, at least personally
mircea_popescu: they've not actually made that claim, have they ?
mircea_popescu: other than gossip
gernika: mircea_popescu you're right - the claim is that it *could* be used by them I suppose.
cazalla: some media claimed so but it was just an ISIS fansite requesting bitcoin donations to pay for hosting
mircea_popescu: clearly terrorist internet funbux then.
asciilifeform: they'd need to find a way to replace ecdsa with an equivalent of caesar's cipher first.
asciilifeform: (who was it who had a piece on how supposed 'enemies of usa' are required, by the laws of god himself, to use idiotically childlike crypto? was it mircea_popescu ?)
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/the-danger-of-homebrew-crypto/ that ?
assbot: The danger of homebrew crypto pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
asciilifeform: aha.
jurov: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/patches.html finally something
asciilifeform: 'signed by' ?
jurov: there will be sigs from other people
asciilifeform: i'd suggest showing original patch author's sig also
jurov: also, it will be hyperlinked to messages in archive
jurov: yes, that will be link from "submitted by"
mircea_popescu: o hey nice!
asciilifeform: (one could hypothetically have a patch 'submitted by' mr x but 'signed by' mr y
jurov: the original singature
asciilifeform: or does 'submitted by' always refer to original sig
jurov: mhm ok
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that anything needs a 1st signature to even be sumitted is not abad design decision
mircea_popescu: well yeah, obviously. right jurov ?
jurov: yes, without 1st sig it won't appear there
jurov: also, ascii as right pentester scattered multiple dots in the filename so it got shortened
asciilifeform: lol!
jurov: it's incredible how he happened to hit multiple bugs at once
mircea_popescu: lmao
thestringpuller: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102183717 << Hahaha
mircea_popescu: maybe he knew what he was doing ?
mircea_popescu: jurov incidentally, gimme the short version, how do i submit to this thing ?
asciilifeform: jurov: i got yet another copy of 'patch' in email. i presume you are turning the knobs as we speak?
jurov: http://ml.therealbitcoin.org/mailman/listinfo/btc-dev "Submitting patches"
mircea_popescu: ty
jurov: can;'t get much shorter
asciilifeform: !up ml.therealbitcoin.org
asciilifeform: damn
asciilifeform: ;;isup ml.therealbitcoin.org
gribble: ml.therealbitcoin.org is down
mircea_popescu: yeah did it just die ?
jurov: therealbitcoin.org/mailman/listinfo/btc-dev
jurov: sry ml. is for internal use only
asciilifeform: someone (who read it!) try signing my patch ?
asciilifeform: see if displays.
mircea_popescu: jurov specifically, is there any way for me to submit signature comments ?
jurov: reply to the thread?
asciilifeform: jurov: how would he (or anyone else) submit a detached sig meant to go with a particular patch ?
asciilifeform: in such a way that it displays under 'signed by'
jurov: by using the file name
mircea_popescu: "Recommended process is to pipe the signed message text directly to mailx or similar client without ambitions." ahahaha gotta love jurov.
jurov: like
asciilifeform: jurov: wouldn't this result in duplicates ?
jurov: wget http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20141112/bitcoin-asciilifeform_a6ada6bb9cebb9540df1fda3465d942a4631d202.2-https_snipsnip.patch
mircea_popescu: jurov but suppose i wish to say "reviewed X part ; Y part outside of my comprehension". can not be done ?
asciilifeform does not ever want to read duplicates
jurov: gpg -b bitcoin-asciilifeform_a6ada6bb9cebb9540df1fda3465d942a4631d202.2-https_snipsnip.patch
jurov: it will make blablabla...hexporn.patch.sig
jurov: send this file under this name as attachment
mircea_popescu: so basically, the correct approach here would have been for ascii to make a patch for each individual diff ?
jurov: it pairs the sig to the patch by name
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have an idea here. if this actually plays out, you would say to me: 'i will not sign X. because i grok X.a but not X.b. please split into two, and i shall sign X.a, or go on to explain to me precisely how X.b works.'
jurov: you mean individual hunks?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but what if you communicating with me is impractical ? because say, you're dead.
mircea_popescu: jurov yes.
asciilifeform: well, when i'm dead, someone else (e.g. you) can cut X into X.a and X.b
mircea_popescu: well no, because then all the history is lost.
jurov: mircea_popescu: if stan is dead you'll split it yourself and resend with your sigs
asciilifeform: X.b will sit, as an orphan, inside a comment thread, until the fateful day that someone picks it up, and signs it, and convinces others to.
mircea_popescu: and what of the 500 orher dead people that signed his ?
asciilifeform: aha what jurov said
jurov: i dunno how it can be cryptographically linked
asciilifeform: eventually all signatures belong to the dead.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: so for this reason, all patches must be mononuclear ?
asciilifeform: that was my original suggestion.
asciilifeform: that a patch, a particular one, is a particular identifiable 'thing.'
mircea_popescu: so what happened to the suggestion ?
asciilifeform: e.g., 'here we burn gavin's broadcaster out with hot iron.'
asciilifeform: 'here we remove https.'
jurov: which suggestion?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his.
mircea_popescu: oops. jurov asciilifeform's.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39845 @ 0.00045202 = 18.0107 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: to be clear, my suggestion concerned how to write patches.
mircea_popescu: anyway, even if they are all mononuclear, there's still semantic value to be had. suppose i wish to say "have read and understood this to do what it says ; have not tested it in fact".
mircea_popescu: should this be verboten, and all or nothing commitment upon signer ?
asciilifeform: this was actually a point i brought up when mircea_popescu said 'one day you shall earn bread by signing code' or something to that effect
jurov: for thi there's the mailman archive
asciilifeform: my question was, that day, 'sign under what'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i know.
jurov: otherwise i hve no idea how to put such semantic metainfo in the db
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you do appreciate the following point : up until and in any case unless one actually had to put his own signature, these matters never have been seriously considered by asnyone.
mircea_popescu: so in that sense, great progress.
asciilifeform: these matters were considered by engineers since hammurabi.
jurov: maybe you want to rate the patch? lol
mircea_popescu: jurov im not even sure it should be there.
jurov: ;;rate -1 sketchy
gribble: Error: 'sketchy' is not a valid integer.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i mean specifically about patches to foss.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: or for any other system where stuff can be changed / "contributed" by "nobody". but anyway, we digress.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do me the courtesy and resubmit as mono patches and then the new ones can win the longer sigchain race with the original one ?
asciilifeform: mono patches?
mircea_popescu: 1 change per patch.
asciilifeform: 1 change as in, 1 line?
jurov: well, the https one is pretty compact
mircea_popescu: shit the hard questions you ask.
asciilifeform is a little confused here
mircea_popescu: i dunno ;/
jurov: if it will be shorter, it could not compilke
mircea_popescu: what should "one" mean in this fortran ?
asciilifeform: when i originally suggested 'one change', it was a semantic thing
asciilifeform: as in, 'and here we remove the nuclear detonator'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah.
asciilifeform: rather than 'one line of code' (try reading the result!) or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: jurov seems the site needs the extension of a "patch notes" clickable field ?
asciilifeform: in that respect, all of the patches i (and the 2 other fellows) offered so far, are monolithic.
mircea_popescu: and similarly, signatures get a "sig notes" following them, like signed by 01ABFFC7(n) 02ABFFC7(n) etc
jurov: yes, it's in pipeline
mircea_popescu: seems to me this'd resolve all outstanding problems.
asciilifeform: so what will be the convention for submitting 'patch note with sig' ?
mircea_popescu: as to the meaning ?
jurov: put clearsigned note into email body
asciilifeform: also i don't remember if i reminded anyone of this, but unix 'patch' utility is rather braindead.
jurov: or first att
asciilifeform: in that, for example, all of the patches submitted so far will break if one is removed from the chain.
jurov: and detached sig as second att
asciilifeform: (line number idiocy)
mircea_popescu: jurov sample code for mailx in the help file would help a great deal.
mircea_popescu: i know this from the mpex faq days.
jurov: mircea_popescu: gpg --clearsign | mailx btc-dev@therealbitcoin.org
jurov: this needs explicit mention?
mircea_popescu: jurov this handles the attachment scheme you wish to use ?
jurov: oh that, mailx does not handle attachments
asciilifeform: jurov: this is not a working example
mircea_popescu: well if mailx doesn'tdo attachments then why do you suggest people use it to mail you attachments lol.
thestringpuller: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 410.23, Best ask: 410.66, Bid-ask spread: 0.43000, Last trade: 410.2, 24 hour volume: 49225.83783296, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 419.932867651
jurov: i suggested it for text.. but yes it's dumb
jurov: apparently it actually does with uuencode..okay another todo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72350 @ 0.00045058 = 32.5995 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'd say this is progressing nicely.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22574 @ 0.0004444 = 10.0319 BTC [-]
nubbins`: i must not derp. derping is the mind-killer.
nubbins`: derping is the little stupidity that leads to total insolvency
mircea_popescu: lol if this cult thing catches on we can even have derpfessions. "have you derped my son ?"
nubbins`: i will face my derp
nubbins`: i will permit it to pass over me and through me
mircea_popescu: there could be a new disease, the derpes...
asciilifeform: http://static.oper.ru/data/site/obama.png
nubbins`: derpes simplex
nubbins`: my actual sides
mircea_popescu: as in, "kissing Arielle Duhaime-Ross will give you herpes, but reading her inanity in the verge will give you derpes"
asciilifeform: (from, naturally, rt: http://russian.rt.com/article/58508#ixzz3IUAu0a71 )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wait, what ?!
BingoBoingo: Watch our for the monkeys with Derpes B
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: misprint. they fired the monkey.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you mean derpes c++ ?
asciilifeform: it was 'osama' originally.
mircea_popescu: oic lol
nubbins`: <jurov> EATS THE TRAILING NEWLINE <<< fwiw deeds eats the trailing \n
nubbins`: srsly, won't verify with it
jurov: nubbins` after the signature?
nubbins`: yes
ben_vulpes: wow did you assholes poop out 1600 lines today?
jurov: interesting
nubbins`: !s deed utils
assbot: 6 results for 'deed utils' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=deed+utils
mircea_popescu: ;;google wasn't me
gribble: Shaggy - It Wasn't Me - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv5fqunQ_4I>; It Wasn't Me - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <;' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Wasn't_Me>; It Wasn't Me Lyrics Shaggy - Genius: <http://rap.genius.com/Shaggy-it-wasnt-me-lyrics>
jurov: ohai ben_vulpes
jurov: we aren;'t done yet
ben_vulpes: heyo jurov mailthing still ongoing saga?
nubbins`: jurov http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-11-2014#908001 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 03-11-2014 17:23:14; nubbins`: tool for predicting deed ID of clearsigned file: http://pastebin.com/Ls76h1kd
nubbins`: line 11
jurov: this ended up py base64 decoder bug... deeds don't do anything w/base64 i hope
mircea_popescu: odd
nubbins`: i grab the base64 deed via json when verifying
nubbins`: but it's not necessary to b64 anything
jurov: lol, so upgrade to py 2.7 then
ben_vulpes: hah you guys got nubbins` programming?
nubbins`: 5 years in the trenches, baby
ben_vulpes: (again)?
nubbins`: no. never again.
nubbins`: but try as i may, some parts of my old brain just won't reformat
mircea_popescu: coding is like buttsex, can be enjoyable if well paced.
nubbins`: jurov fwiw some (most?) text editors append a \n at the end of text files
nubbins`: i know pico does
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also in the permanent deformations of the respective organs.
nubbins`: heh
jurov: nubbins`: but they usually show it (you can move to the new line)
mircea_popescu: that's a myth.
jurov: vim sees '\\\n' but doesn't show it
mircea_popescu: i bet you you can't pikc out butt virgins in a line-up.
asciilifeform can only speak for the programming
mircea_popescu: not unless the actual women open up.
nubbins`: jurov true. upon reopening the file it's there
nubbins`: but...
nubbins`: how does one save a text file that doesn't end in \n?
nubbins`: not so easy
ben_vulpes: so does the patchpusher work or not?
mircea_popescu: prototype works, more stuff to be added.
nubbins`: truthfully i wonder if deedbot shouldn't be stripping the trailing \n
mircea_popescu: why ?
nubbins`: ehh
nubbins`: i don't know ;/
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: maybe darcs should strip the trailing \n then ?
nubbins`: why in the fuck do text editors add it in the first place?
nubbins`: mildly amusing that this is the most difficult part of all this stuff, in the meantime
mircea_popescu: yup
undata: nubbins`: some farty unix convention
undata: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/729692/why-should-files-end-with-a-newline
assbot: history - Why should files end with a newline? - Stack Overflow
nubbins`: i assumed it was so if you spat the file out, the bash prompt would be on a new line
undata: everyone in that thread is just saying that they're "supposed to"
mircea_popescu: nubbins` im pretty sure that's what it is.
nubbins`: well i can see what they mean
nubbins`: you dirty a line, you provide a clean one to the next guy
asciilifeform: !s postel's law
assbot: 3 results for 'postel's law' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=postel%27s+law
nubbins`: so maybe deedbot shouldn't be stripping the \n at eof
asciilifeform not enamoured with postel's law
nubbins`: punkman ^
nubbins`: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap03.html#tag_03_206
assbot: Definitions
mircea_popescu: !up hank_
asciilifeform: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2826980/Winston-Churchill-s-bid-nuke-Russia-win-Cold-War-uncovered-secret-FBI-files.html << ideal example of 'crank bait' method. perfectly factual allegation, regarded as nearly hundred percent proven by ru historians for decades. 'smoking gun' finally out. what does lizard hitler do? orders it printed in 'daily mail.'
assbot: Winston Churchill's 'bid to nuke Russia' to win Cold War uncovered | Daily Mail Online
asciilifeform: 'what kind of fool would believe document from 'daily mail' ?'
mircea_popescu: the romanian epxression is, "perfidul albion"
asciilifeform: lol!
mircea_popescu: anyway, nothing remarkable there. it's to be used like any other thing.
asciilifeform: as a 'zoologist' of these, can't help but notice the extraordinarily-obvious specimen in the wild.
cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/cryptocoinsnews-disable-your-adblocker/
assbot: CryptoCoinsNews: Disable Your Adblocker! | Qntra.net
mircea_popescu: lawl
mircea_popescu: !s David Parker
assbot: 1 results for 'David Parker' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=David+Parker
undata: speaking of unremarkable news: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/13/us-military-considers-troops-iraq-general
assbot: US military considers sending combat troops to battle Isis forces in Iraq | US news | The Guardian
undata: I guess Iraq is the ditch we want to die in
ben_vulpes: yes
ben_vulpes: double down
ben_vulpes: more shellshock in the populace
ben_vulpes: actually probably less cuz drones, n'est?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/13/eric-frein-terrorism-charges-pennsylvania-police-ambush
assbot: Eric Frein to face terrorism charges over fatal Pennsylvania police ambush | US news | The Guardian
cazalla: mircea_popescu, prolly a fake name, i've searched and searched and there is nothing on this guy
undata: ben_vulpes: this us heading back in with marines
undata: *is us
mircea_popescu: cazalla yeah, it's a fake name.
mircea_popescu: prolly the gaw dude himself.
mircea_popescu: "Charge based on letter by Frein calling for revolution" << :D
undata: ben_vulpes: the classic "just the tip" maneuver
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Seemed inevitable
mircea_popescu: undata the funny part is, the us got so fucking raped in iraq it's hard to describe. now they want to go for round two ?
mircea_popescu: it's impractical, 2000s us could borrow the 50trn they used. 2015s us can not.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remaining u.s. physical industry is 99% iraq-based (that is, hardware whose inventory must be churned in some iraq or other.)
asciilifeform: so, gotta churn inventory.
mircea_popescu: it's not inventory unless you can replace it.
mircea_popescu: to make it perfectly clear : any sunk cruiser reduces the total count of cruisers the us will ever have by 1.
mircea_popescu: every downed plane is downed for good.
asciilifeform: those who order the churn, have no concept that there will not be replacement ordered.
mircea_popescu: perpahs.
mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone has a direct interest in the welfare of the poor grunts involved, like loved ones or w/e :
BingoBoingo: Oh look, its the S.MPOE market cap: https://twitter.com/ScottWuerz/status/533076669419245568
assbot: So much for speculation about no more 10-yr deals. Heyman says MIA taking w/Stanton about a 12-yr, $300 mil deal. How will they afford it?
mircea_popescu: the coming iraq campaign will be the first one the us soldiers will not have enough boots and shit. maybe best enlist for something else.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00044459 = 12.6708 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not the first. i vaguely recall '1 flak jacket for 3 men' in the last one
asciilifeform: mats_cd03 ^^ ?
undata: mircea_popescu: they didn't even have enough armor, etc., last time
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform flak jackets != boots.
mircea_popescu: yes, trhey were short materiel.
mircea_popescu: this time they will be short toilet paper and toothpaste.
BingoBoingo: I recall they were short on toilet paper and toothpaste last time. I recall solicitations for "care packages" consisting of basic necessities when I was at school.
asciilifeform: saw this, yes
asciilifeform: the one that always got me was the donation box for 'books'
asciilifeform: yes, generic 'books.'
asciilifeform: brought to mind the possibility that these were to be used in lieu of toilet paper.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't that come with a "no bibles please" ?
asciilifeform: they get those from usg.
BingoBoingo: They really do
mircea_popescu: as in, too smooth for use.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: and printed on telephone book paper.
mircea_popescu: should be funny to see when the first supposed army uniot goes native.
mircea_popescu: happened to the late romans a whole heck of a lot more than they ever cared to admit
undata: I can't rub two coherent thoughts together that make going back to Iraq a good idea.
undata: mass delusion?
BingoBoingo: I thought that was linked here not too long ago, except they went native at their own station.
mircea_popescu: in fact, it was the premier driver behind the eventual move to mercenaries, something otherwise politically incomprehensible for today's curious student.
undata: so this islamic state consolidates parts of the middle east? that's probably a great thing.
mircea_popescu: but the politicos of the time were caught in the very real vice of "well, rome's poor or the vandals, about as trustworthy"
mircea_popescu: undata not for local women.
asciilifeform: this is why no going native.
undata: mircea_popescu: certainly not. neither is the current circumstance though
asciilifeform: who the hell wants to go native - there.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform every young man.
asciilifeform: american?
mircea_popescu: undata women are principally distinguished by a preference for the shit they know.
mircea_popescu: that's actually what womanhood MEANS.
undata: hm.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure. think about it : be the gods of their age group ? instead of going home to hear a stupid bitchfest, stay with the people where rape is something you're supposed to do ?
mircea_popescu: why were they in the army in the first place,. to police reddit ?
asciilifeform: to get their teeth done.
mircea_popescu: maybe.
undata: if we see IS as an actual threat, we really must be in sore shape.
mircea_popescu: notice that in a group of 100k idiots, you may end up with a subgroup of 100 or 10 idiots of any particular braindamage you wish.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> to get their teeth done. << One cousin enlisted for this reason. Now afraid of dentists.
mircea_popescu: i can readily see numerous angles through which retiring from the us military to baghdad rather than kansas is preferable to the 19 yo mind.
mircea_popescu: really, the lucky aspect for the us army officers is that the arabs don't bother to learn english. otherwise, the sheer cultural pressure would probably make "boots on ground" untenable.
asciilifeform: the phase transition may be the point where we leave 'desertion means no more toilet paper' and move to 'desertion means access to toilet paper.'
mircea_popescu: it's already "desertion means leaving a world that you don't understand" and move to "desertion means joining a world you easily do"
asciilifeform: (or more fantastic example - ice cream. i have it on good authority that many american units in iraq were supplied even with it.)
mircea_popescu: lol why wouldn't they be ?!
asciilifeform: because wtf.
mircea_popescu: icecream has been a part of rations since vietnam
asciilifeform: somebody wake up mats_cd03.
asciilifeform: or perhaps he is already being shaved and fitted with new uniform for the next gig.
BingoBoingo recalls friend telling stories that when the was in the Infantry every few weeks he'd have to watch the Airforce at his base have friendly BBQ's with thier Afghans
undata: a brother of a friend was in fallujah; I've heard a few of his stories, and they weren't about iced cream.
undata: why "IS"? I'm sure he and others clearing houses of everything that moved didn't help.
BingoBoingo: The spectrum of US Armed forces experiences this past decade is a wide one. The cousin nao afraid of dentist in his whole time enlisted in the marines was either in the US or on a boat.
BingoBoingo: Well, ISI* probably because 'Murica wasn't as scary as Saddam, so Pro Idiotas had room
BingoBoingo: And eventually after some embarrassment they have less ideas and America leaves, then ??? ISIL
BingoBoingo: Pretty much the story of Los Zetas, but in reverse
mircea_popescu: something like that. woman previously married to some hard drinking bozo meets a phthisc young man who's a "student" whatever that may mean. the three quarrel, the kid ends up killing the man, talks the woman up a storm then... leaves ?
mircea_popescu: she's too horny to go to bed so she fucks a coupla passing bums, with disastrous effects.
BingoBoingo: Los Zetas started as a bunch of experts, but finite hit points and now the human shields are in charge and Nuevo Laredo can't have a nice hooker district anymore
mircea_popescu: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/09/201191010256505546.html
assbot: The West's self-licking ice cream cones - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
mircea_popescu: somewhat related.
mircea_popescu: As far as I am aware, the phrase came into usage among knowing observers of the Vietnam War. A self-licking ice cream cone is a programme or policy that costs money and resources, generating a great deal of activity; produces indicators of its own success, preferably quantitative; but does not actually achieve its announced goals. Indeed, a proper self-licking cone undermines the very purposes for which it was created,
mircea_popescu: while at the same time sucking in ever more resources from worthy and effective activities.
cazalla: mircea_popescu: icecream has been a part of rations since vietnam <<< lt dan, icecream!
asciilifeform: self-licking ice cream cone << i learned the phrase from mr. mold, who used it to describe u.s. academia.
mircea_popescu: More targets meant more bombing, and more bombing meant a bigger role for the USAF. The result was more budget, more planes, and career advancement for all concerned.
mircea_popescu: The only problem was that the bombing was helping lose the war. Predictably, the peasants turned against Saigon, leading to the introduction of US ground forces in 1965. Like the “body count”, the number of “structures” destroyed had no relation to actually winning the war. It was an indicator of organisational “success” wholly divorced from reality, and from the values that the organisation was supposed to
mircea_popescu: be serving. The USAF was killing the very peasants it was there to save from communism.
mircea_popescu: pretty much the story of iraq v1 and v2, for that matter.
mircea_popescu: a bureaucracy is history-less, in that it is incapable of learning from its mistakes, just like amoeba is incapable of learning writing.
mircea_popescu: it will follow the sugar gradient and that's all it does.
nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/rOmIAe1.jpg
nubbins`: dat silkscreened photograph
mircea_popescu: nubbins` how much did that run cost ?
mircea_popescu: o nm, it's not a book, it's a poster.
nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/6qVTCuK.jpg close up
nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/04rtgLI.jpg unsuccessful attempt w/ stochastic dots
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00043619 = 29.3338 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo remembers publishing a poetry book at a ninety something percent loss. -ISBN-(sample copies)+(~7 dollars in ebook revenue from Austrialia) = Loss, I was enlightened, also a week later on lithium
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo how many sales is 7 bux ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: 20 or so I believe. I think on ebooks I got 30%. "Self" publishing is a racket
mircea_popescu: indeed.
BingoBoingo: But I was young, dumb, and in grad school pt. 1
mircea_popescu: unless you actually self publish. asylum ended up costing about 1.40 per copy, printfiles -> distributor warehouse.
BingoBoingo: Yeah. In the aftermath I did the math on, "What if I actually had something worth publishing on tree cadavers"
mircea_popescu: basically, everywhere guis are a racket.
mircea_popescu: when one approaches you with the proposition of "making things easy" what he means is, your wallet. easier to carry.
mircea_popescu: things that can be easy already are. things that aren't easy can't be made "easier". if you can't afford a house, taking credit doesn't make the house easier. etc.
asciilifeform: the great crime of the 'easy self publishing' of today's automagic laser-printer-with-binding-machine is... on the reader.
asciilifeform: not long ago, i opened yet another envelope in expectation of finding 'a book that was actually a book once' and got an ms-word formatted turd
BingoBoingo: Oh, and original resolution of the NL MVP Stanton bet ended up being right. You can have the mods clear out all of that penny sports bet baseball spam nao
asciilifeform: with contents to match.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o btw, does the end product of my first foray into that industry suck ?
asciilifeform: it's a riot, actually
asciilifeform: i was thinking of a different envelope.
mircea_popescu: i mean as a product. the thing itself.
mircea_popescu: teh item
mircea_popescu: i ask you for i suspect you've read books before.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: (true story, gave one to woman, she's like "oh this is so nice, i've never read a book before!"
mircea_popescu: intending it as a sort of compliment i guess ?)
asciilifeform: ;;google is that a real program or is that something somebody wrote
gribble: Programming Sucks - Still Drinking: <http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks>; Will Smith Quotes (Author of Just the Two of Us) - Goodreads: <http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/598671.Will_Smith>; How To Become A Hacker - Catb.org: <http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html>
asciilifeform: damn, wish i could find that ancient piece.
BingoBoingo was disappointed in the quality of his print on demand turd. The spine was an outie...
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo pod sucked for a long time
BingoBoingo: On a paperback
mircea_popescu: by now it's maibe okish
BingoBoingo: Twas 2009, POD had been a thing for a while
asciilifeform: by now they have it to the level of the crappier mass-produced books.
BingoBoingo: I mean it's solid. I didn't get gyp'd on glue
asciilifeform: still can't get, afaik, 'lay-flats' other than the spiral variety
asciilifeform: lay-flat requires, i think, saddle-stitch binding
asciilifeform: rather than glue
asciilifeform: for what it's worth, i routinely use 'lulu.com' as a personal printer.
asciilifeform: works great.
BingoBoingo: If I were to imagine a serious book piracy operation, the standard glue "Perfect" binding would be prefered
BingoBoingo: Lulu.com was my printer too!
asciilifeform: they have, afaik, the whole thing automated. from 'pdf' to mailing crate.
asciilifeform: quite possibly no human ever even sees the result.
asciilifeform: when i say 'personal printer', i mean, in lieu of an actual printer.
asciilifeform: of the kind one may keep on a desk.
asciilifeform: for instance, i like, e.g., ic data sheets, in dead tree.
BingoBoingo: Ah
asciilifeform: i don't own a computer 'fast' enough to 'flip' a pdf the way a dead tree heap can be flipped, and not sure if such a machine even exists.
mircea_popescu: "Would you drive across this bridge? No. If it somehow got built, everybody involved would be executed. Yet some version of this dynamic wrote every single program you have ever used, banking software, websites, and a ubiquitously used program that was supposed to protect information on the internet but didn't."
mircea_popescu: which is why i am so keen on executions.
asciilifeform: yeah i think we did that one here
asciilifeform: not the article in question though
cazalla: " Earlier in 2014, the SEC investigated Eric Voorhees for the unregistered sale of securities of SatoshiDICE and FeedZeBirds, using the Romanian online crowdsale platform MPEx to solicit investors from 2012 to 2013."
asciilifeform: but for some reason yes, google brings it up for 'real program or something somebody wrote'
BingoBoingo: cazalla: I wrote a piece on that once
mircea_popescu: cazalla let me guess, they sourced it and everything.
mircea_popescu: which is how they got the wrong year.
cazalla: http://www.kattenlaw.com/showadvisory.aspx?Show=47630 if you are interested
assbot: Recent Key Bitcoin and Virtual Currency Regulatory and Law Enforcement Developments | Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/06/03/the-sec-bares-its-gums-and-settles-with-erik/ cazalla
assbot: The SEC Bares its Gums and Settles with Erik | Bingo Blog
cazalla: BingoBoingo, i've read that, this is just something i come across while looking for news
mircea_popescu: well, i guess this is a good point for anyone considering using Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP : don't.
mircea_popescu: they're too lazy to do their research and sprout nonsense in their pr. imagine the sort of horribru buried in their court filings
BingoBoingo: Oh, so like the think that got shat into news about litecoin mining which was settled last year
mircea_popescu: admitting anyone was to date naive enough to allow them to file on his behalf.
mircea_popescu: anyway, one of those fast food chains of legal practice. high churn, large staff of largely unqualified lawyers on dead end career tracks, whole thing kept together by paralegals, somewhat.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: found it!! >> https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00184.html
assbot: my evolution as a programmer
asciilifeform: original link dead many years ago, but - mirror.
asciilifeform: (why this was relevant - i will explain later. assuming anyone still cares. and is awake.)
BingoBoingo: I'm awake for a while. Winter came. Interfered with my sleep
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> unless you actually self publish. <<< preach it
nubbins`: vanity publishing is often a break-even venture at best
mircea_popescu: i'm awake because real cults don't sleep, they wait.
nubbins`: cthulhu fh'tagn
mircea_popescu: nubbins` what i meant was a distinction between self publishing, ie, being the editor, and self-rape, ie, being the customer of an editor specialised in raping idiots.
nubbins`: nod, full agreement here
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is exactly how hiring a lawyer has worked since at last the 60s
mircea_popescu: and how hiring a doctor is starting to be, too.
nubbins`: you gotta fight for your health here
nubbins`: digging in your heels is the only way
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you summarily introduce "menu-lookup" writing of glue code for the innocent ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37291 @ 0.00043536 = 16.235 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: "Is that a real program or is that something somebody wrote?" << ah yea, now this makes sense. i had the exact same notion, for exactly the same reason. a "real program" was something that didn't need to use the z80 basic interpreter, wasn't editable for this reason, and this immutability was cool. then on the msdos system, .exe binaries exactly mapped on this same structure of cool.
BingoBoingo: !up devthedev
nubbins`: the day i realized i could just type spcinvad instead of spcinvad.exe!!
mircea_popescu: i loved deathtrack, and i spent a while finetuning the sound implementation of basic to make the same laser sound.
mircea_popescu: i think in the end i got it, and so i could fire as much as i wanted, no concern for bs "laser heating"
mircea_popescu: then i plugged a led into the serial port and had it blink when i lasered too, and this i think was the pinnacle of achievement.
nubbins`: openbazaar is going to change thzzzzzzz
nubbins`: oo a hud for your laser
nubbins`: nb
mircea_popescu: imagine this, a 12 yo could figure out the serial port interface in ms-dos, without even knowing wtf a port or an interface are.
mircea_popescu: and with a led, mind, which only works on certain voltage going a certain way.
nubbins`: that 12yo must have grown up to be the smartest man alive
mircea_popescu: as it just so happens, that theory is about to get tested.
mircea_popescu: "Write a program that prints the numbers from 1 to 100. But for multiples of three print “Fizz” instead of the number and for the multiples of five print “Buzz”. For numbers which are multiples of both three and five print “FizzBuzz”.
mircea_popescu: for i x to y output + Fizz if i|3 output + Buzz if i|5 output + i if output is empty.
mircea_popescu: do i pass ?
nubbins`: i think if the current smartest man can't say for sure, then yes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41600 @ 0.00043724 = 18.1892 BTC [+]
xanthyos: ok i may be wasting my time but i'm going to try to get that guy thomas_d into the wot again tonight
xanthyos: persistence paid off with bagels7
asciilifeform: menu-lookup writing of glue code << refers to systems like the (1990s? no idea if still fits this description) 'visual basic' and the like.
asciilifeform: where gigantic swaths of (hesitate to even call it a) program - get 'written for you'
mircea_popescu: basically i got the idea from reading the piece that he means code that implements the "cut problem into parts, implement parts, glue parts together" approach
asciilifeform: producing buckets upon buckets of boilerplate crud
asciilifeform: aha no. he was speaking of 'glue code' in the sense of gluing heavy 'prefab' swaths together
mircea_popescu: so dreamweaver is an example ?
asciilifeform: something which the archetypical 'indian replacement programmer' occupies himself with.
asciilifeform innocent of 'dreamweaver', cannot say
mircea_popescu: adobe "autobuild your website" code
asciilifeform: aha then likely.
mircea_popescu: was famous before mullenderp raped poetry a new hole, because you could tell from all the <hea<he</head>ad>>> mess that it had been used.
mircea_popescu: now those people mostly use wordpress, with PLUGINS
asciilifeform: aha, reminiscent of msword html output.
mircea_popescu: then ben_vulpes is here going "hmm, where the fuck is this nonsense hardcoded in"
asciilifeform actually uses a (very threadbare) 'wordpress'
mircea_popescu: me too.
mircea_popescu: or what's left of one.
asciilifeform: ^ yes.
mircea_popescu: makes php better rhan c i guess
mircea_popescu: adobe's shit is written in c, nobody can be bothered to compule it
asciilifeform: adobe never once, afaik, published source for anything
asciilifeform: other than 'alchemy'
asciilifeform: (a crackpot gcc port with... flash (!, yes) back-end)
asciilifeform: that was a real riot, incidentally
asciilifeform: somebody even got 'doom' to build.
asciilifeform: http://peterelst.com/blog/2008/12/18/porting-doom-to-flash-interview-with-mike-welsh
assbot: Porting Doom to Flash - Interview with Mike Welsh — Peter Elst
asciilifeform: ^ that one.
asciilifeform: (why? no one knows! but it was done.)
mircea_popescu: this was leaked in what, 2002 ?
cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/david-woo-of-bank-of-america-merrill-lynch-dont-invest-in-bitcoin/
assbot: David Woo Of Bank of America Merrill Lynch: Don't Invest In Bitcoin | Qntra.net
cazalla: ooh, scoopbot is back, wb scoopbot
scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/david-woo-of-bank-of-america-merrill-lynch-dont-invest-in-bitcoin/
decimation: I could see some sense in a 'delay' in the case that an actual human examines the transactions before they are released
decimation: but in that case it wouldn't be an arbitrary delay enforced by a cron job for no reason
decimation: I remember playing 'doom' on my hp-48 calculator
decimation: someone ported to 'saturn' assembly
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2891 @ 0.0004336 = 1.2535 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54000 @ 0.00043323 = 23.3944 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: cazalla lulzy quote.
mircea_popescu: will be funny reference in teh future.
PeterL: mrjr:thestringpuller: i'll work on getting my creds in order :) meni rosenfeld is one of our investors, and our cto Shaul Kfir was a reviewer for the sidechain paper. << wasn't Meni Rosenfeld connected with a GLBSE scam?
mircea_popescu: !up cb_bitcoin
mircea_popescu: PeterL from bitdaytrade to whatever you want.
PeterL: perhaps not the best name to drop as WoT cred?
mircea_popescu: guy specialises in vouching for scams, he's a sort of max keiser for his space.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, what ever happened to aurora coin ? has it passed ethereum yet ?
mircea_popescu: "So no, I'm not required to be able to lift objects weighing up to fifty pounds. I traded that for the opportunity to trim Satan's pubic hair while he dines out of my open skull so a few bits of the internet will continue to work for a few more days."
mircea_popescu: heh. alternatively, just don't write dumbass ajax websites for monkeys. big fucking deal, srsly.
BingoBoingo: "You can't arrest me. I'm the Cake Boss" http://4.nbcny.com/SGgcUl1
assbot: TLC's "Cake Boss" Arrested on DWI Charges in Manhattan: NYPD | NBC New York
asciilifeform: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/NYC-New-York-Hasidic-Jewish-Arrests-Mortgage-Fraud-FBI-Orange-County-282544591.html << more interesting
assbot: NY Family Accused of Taking Out $20 Million in Mortgages While Collecting Food Stamps | NBC New York
mircea_popescu: how is this an accusation ?
mircea_popescu: a ok, fraud.
asciilifeform: real question: in which direction.
mircea_popescu: In one instance, one of Rubin's relatives claimed weekly income of $200 to get Medicaid and food stamps while claiming a net worth of $10 million to banks in order to get $7 million in loans.
mircea_popescu: this is presented as contradictory, but it actually isn't.
asciilifeform: i.e., borrowing $20m while broke and on food stamps? or fraudulently collecting food stamps while bathing in $20m bezzlars.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think one can genuinely be both simultaenously in the us atm.
asciilifeform: 'is it rape if the check bounced?'
mircea_popescu: much like 1990 russian megacorps.
asciilifeform: i imagine we will see
asciilifeform: my guess is - yes, both.
decimation: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/us/cuts-in-military-mean-job-losses-for-career-staff.html?_r=0 << usg is broke, decides to 'fire' army officers rather than cut back food stamps
assbot: Log In - The New York Times
decimation: although to be precise, the way the military 'fires' officers is more of a 'pocket veto' - if you fail to make the cut for promotion (at higher grades) you are automatically discharged
asciilifeform: used to be called, 'cachiering'
mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2014/11/bip-65-revisiting-nlocktime/ << the problem with this is that if a miner doesn't implement the new protocol, and mines a block in spite of the supposed nlocktime lock, that block is well spent.
assbot: BIP-65: Revisiting nLockTime | Qntra.net
mircea_popescu: so a softfork does not in fact do anything, the dblspending party can just mine their own dblspend and that's that.
decimation: wait, they decide protocol details on twitter now?
BingoBoingo: Actual soft for yes, but "if all the miners accept" softfork is a hardfork
asciilifeform: for those who missed, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#920112 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 19:04:36; *: asciilifeform admits that he suspects bip64 of being a plot to create usg-like bonds in btc. folks will be asked to trace X proper btc for X+epsilon 'locked' ones that are to land back in their pocket 'in the future', should they live long enough, but are actually recovable 'because this is how the world works'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56873 @ 0.00044346 = 25.2209 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: oh wait, I thought the delays that the scammer was writing about were simply 'private delays' on the part of the machine
mircea_popescu: Proving sacrifice to miners' fees
mircea_popescu: Proving the sacrifice of some limited resource is a common technique in a variety of cryptographic protocols. Proving sacrifices of coins to mining fees has been proposed as a universal public good to which the sacrifice could be directed, rather than simply destroying the coins. However doing so is non-trivial, and even the best existing technqiue - announce-commit sacrifices - could encourage mining centralization. C
mircea_popescu: HECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can be used to create outputs that are provably spendable by anyone (thus to mining fees assuming miners behave optimally and rationally) but only at a time sufficiently far into the future that large miners profitably can't sell the sacrifices at a discount.
decimation: They want to bake it into the protocol? That's fuckin nuts
mircea_popescu: this is perhaps the most braindamaged nonsense i read today.
mircea_popescu: desperately needs more "expert" economists and whatnot.
decimation: "universal public good"
mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> Actual soft for yes, but "if all the miners accept" softfork is a hardfork << "all miners accept" means what ?
mircea_popescu: until a new miner joins ?
decimation: re: experts: http://rwcg.wordpress.com/2014/11/13/id-rather-have-this-bill-than-not-dictated-the-professor/
assbot: “I’d rather have this bill than not”, dictated the Professor | RWCG
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Means old clients accept giberish, but miners actually hardfork if a "time locked" signature is mined early
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo only workls for as long as they actually do.
mircea_popescu: tomorrow large miner joins, doesn't implement it, they hardfork all they want, chainwarz.
mircea_popescu: peppering this sort of nonsense in the code is a prime way to ensure the rough equivalent of "atomic weapons" for future negotiations.
mircea_popescu: "give us your daugther or we fork it" sort of bs.
BingoBoingo: Well, https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2i6pz0/peter_todds_checklocktimeverify_means_bitcoin/cm0liy8 seems not to be popular with the redditards, but on blocksizefork Bitpay has an incentive to choose the shitgnome side and face punishment
assbot: Atruk comments on Peter Todd's CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY Means Bitcoin Escrow, Refunds and a Fork
mircea_popescu: "It all traces back to the fact that the academy did not police itself properly. They gave, or through their inaction/laziness allowed to get, this guy and his (retarded) output the mantle of ‘expertise’. If the bad PR spilling off of him now redounds back onto other academicians in his peer group I understand that will be unfair in some cases but they have only themselves to blame."
mircea_popescu: it is not unfair in any case.
BingoBoingo: Because of course Vessenes' foundation wants bigger blocks when its only surviving members that pay it need bigger blocks
mircea_popescu: they should all hang for his sins. he may get off with prison, being just a fraud
mircea_popescu: but the actual professionals should hang, by their own guts.
decimation: yeah the author doesn't go far enough
mircea_popescu: "Seriously, I bet the ‘model’ is some kind of gunky spreadsheet. Or something little better, anyway. A mishmash of data being shoved together to reach predetermined conclusions, with tons of ad hoc assumptions. " << sounds like exactly dub's brew :D
decimation: I would bet money on that too
mircea_popescu: but hey, who's to argue with the politico-experts, right ?
decimation: he should start a bitbet
asciilifeform: in other news...
asciilifeform: '...in one case, the discovery that the crews that maintain the nation’s 450 intercontinental ballistic missiles had only a single wrench that could attach the nuclear warheads. “They started FedExing the one tool” to three bases spread across the country, one official familiar with the contents of the reports said Thursday. No one had checked in years “to see if new tools were being made,” the offici
asciilifeform: al said. This was one of many maintenance problems that had “been around so long that no one reported them anymore.”'
asciilifeform: ( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/us/politics/pentagon-studies-reveal-major-nuclear-problems.html ) ☟︎
assbot: Log In - The New York Times
BingoBoingo: I could seriously imagine the chinese miners being coerced to oppose a USGaving blocksize increase simply because it hurts the payment processors. Bezelzebub bless the triad of mutual enemies working together for our success!
decimation: asciilifeform: supposedly that socket wrench that destroyed the missile in the silo in arkansas was 'ilegal'
decimation: now you know why
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo anyway, all the more reasons to have a proper, functional implementation of the canonical bitcoin code
mircea_popescu: for all these idiots to fall back on once the shit hits the fan.
decimation: yeah, if anything it's sewing ascii's parachute before being needed
BingoBoingo: Indeed, but also a factor that will provide the catalyst for the acceptance of Venetian Bitcoind
mircea_popescu: meanwhile they can all hold hands with the canada chick and chant how "bitcoin is not coming and not posing a risk"
mircea_popescu: noably, romania's president announced in 2009 that "criza financiara va ocoli romania"
mircea_popescu: literally, the crisis will go around romania.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40904 @ 0.00044601 = 18.2436 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: mircea_popescu: you mean that julia character
mircea_popescu: w/e her name is.
mircea_popescu: was on qntra earlier, which is the only reason she's notable.
mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2014/11/bank-of-canada-bitcoin-poses-no-risk-but-well-watch-it-closely-anyway/
assbot: Bank of Canada: Bitcoin Poses No Risk But We'll Watch It Closely Anyway | Qntra.net
mircea_popescu: Carolyn Wilkins
decimation: ah her
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29318 @ 0.00044997 = 13.1922 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: !t m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00036402 / 0.00045973 / 0.00056765 (1289039 shares, 592.62 BTC), 7D: 0.00036402 / 0.00058749 / 0.00068888 (6013699 shares, 3,533.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00036402 / 0.00070655 / 0.00081111 (22518580 shares, 15,910.69 BTC)
BingoBoingo: https://www.quantcast.com/qntra.net << At this point in qntra's age I'm not disliking the sawtooth pattern.
assbot: Qntra.net Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast
decimation: I had a conversation today about some guy who knew a guy who bought a house for $200k in california in 2002 and sold for $700k in 2006
BingoBoingo: Also... Qntra's in the top quarter million nao
mircea_popescu: decimation that's pretty meta...
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeah seems to be revving up nicely.
decimation: so this guy profits... and the 'taxpayer' picks up the $$bn bill for freddie mac and implicit bank guarantees
decimation: my point being, does bitcoin represent a 'threat' to this arrangement?
BingoBoingo: decimation: I don't think so. Nothing is more fashionable than location.
mircea_popescu: decimation depends. can he do it on your 0.1% ?
decimation: real estate will always be an asset - but the bezzle freshly printing to fund it won't
mircea_popescu: the major point about low taxes is that it makes the pot of the public treasury too small to hold the estimation of the conman
mircea_popescu: and so the conman moves to try adn con private interest.
mircea_popescu: whereas when taxes are significant, the opposite happens.
decimation: that's a good point
decimation: at least with private cons, the damage is likely to be limited and obvious in scope, rather than 'socialized'
mircea_popescu: but in general : it is good that any one person steals any one sum from the usg.
mircea_popescu: this is dead money being returned to live hands.
decimation: mircea_popescu: there are genuine people with genuine skills who spend their entire lives attempting to make usg better
mircea_popescu: the word for this is "idiots"
mircea_popescu: in general, the country suffers when taxes are paid, and gains through graft.
PeterL: http://bablogs.btcscoop.com
assbot: #bitcoin-assets blog posts
PeterL: ^ how does that look?
mircea_popescu: great actually
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40350 @ 0.00045856 = 18.5029 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: PeterL: Looks good, think you are missing Ben Fox's blog and maybe a couple others.
PeterL: sure, I can add more
PeterL: links?
BingoBoingo: PeterL: The look, the styling... simply beautiful http://cascadianhacker.com/index.html
assbot: missives from the post-megastate frontier
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/people-have-made-blogs/
assbot: People have made blogs pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
decimation: mircea_popescu: I would agree with the 'idiot' label - but you realize that this 'catches' at least 95% of humanity - who generally refuse to consider their position w.r.t. the entire world's (and history's) context
mircea_popescu: PeterL also could you make it so only say first 100 words of a post appear ?
mircea_popescu: decimation soooooo
mircea_popescu: fizzbuzz test is supposed to catch 99.5% of "programmers" too neh ?
PeterL: mircea_popescu: I am grabbing the summary, most of them are pretty short
mircea_popescu: nobody ever criticised it for this.
mircea_popescu: PeterL fixed max helps the skim reader
PeterL: sure
mircea_popescu asking for a friend.
PeterL: BingoBoingo: cascadianhacker apparently doesn't have a working feed, but I could add it to the list on the right
BingoBoingo: PeterL: Well... I think Ben Fox hosts his blog on emacs
mircea_popescu: lol ben_vulpes the post is the feed eh ?
decimation: mircea_popescu: what stripped down version of wordpress do you use?
decimation: do you update it?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, and nope.
BingoBoingo: decimation: I think I've asked him before. He doesn't update though. He simply patches.
mircea_popescu: not in the past 6 months at least, no.
BingoBoingo wishes more software would go the errata+patches route
mircea_popescu: bout 5-6 years ago i had an actual major portal site, dtng (the 4chan clone) was on it, also fain (a romanian digg) and my blog and a bunch of other shit
mircea_popescu: at the time i had a full complement of php coder guru types, threw in "make me a better wp" in a worklist once and well...
decimation: BingoBoingo: well, redhat pretty much operates this way
decimation: rhel has slowly gone downhill over the past few years - becoming more 'poetterized'
BingoBoingo: decimation: Not really. RedHat still has updates. Red Hat's antithesis though...
mircea_popescu: dja mean anathema ?
decimation: one can inspect the patches, if one is willing to sit down and do the work
BingoBoingo: decimation: Well Red Hat hired Poettering
BingoBoingo: I imagine they saw the quick cash the microshit model brings
mircea_popescu: how did that quote go
decimation: well, when money is literally handed out to idiots via gov't programs, tricking idiots into forking over is a great business model
mircea_popescu: "Government sponsored enterprises enter the business, in due course bad behavior is made mandatory, and the evil financial network is bigger than the honest financial network, with the result that even though everyone knows what is happening, people continue to use the paper issued by the evil financial network, because of network effects - the big, main issuers, are the issuers you use if you want to do business."
decimation: yeah that
mircea_popescu: same shit, so foss starts, great, get rhel to be a pentagon contractor.
mircea_popescu: not because you want to use their code
mircea_popescu: but specifically because you do not want to.
mircea_popescu: soon enough...
mircea_popescu: the exact sort of thing that would render a us expeditionary force if the arabs but spoke english, is the exact thing that renders the "well meaning" idiots you mentioned earlier
mircea_popescu: because the bureaucracy DOES speak english.
decimation: I remember those heady days, when it was thought that it wouldn't be possible to 'make money' off of foss
decimation: now I wish the money would go away
mircea_popescu: it would have been, if someone added bitcoin to pgp
mircea_popescu: and pushed the holy trifecta through
mircea_popescu: but who ?
decimation: RMS
decimation: lol
mircea_popescu: people tend to be very laudative of the people that were smart, at any juncture
mircea_popescu: nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you."
BingoBoingo: Ah, the great thing about PGP is that GPG 1.4x fork won
mircea_popescu: well, except for terrorist me, of course, in a piece about romania's 80s generation. but that's besides the point.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you." << My brother the dentist does if you get him drunk.
decimation: yeah actually bitcoin is a great example of the link I posted yesterday, about technologies that *should* have been invented in the past but were not
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo that's not happenstance. that shit will happen again and again because it happened for fundamental reasons.
mircea_popescu: stan's fork will win the bitcoin through the same interplay of the same cosmic forces.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The problem I when he presents it is that not everyone wants to marry a large SJW, even if it means the dog you get in exchange is adorable
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo larger problem : men don't generally get that they have the god fucking given right to say "fuck you and get lost"
mircea_popescu: "door's that way" and variations thereof.
asciilifeform: obligatory naggum: 'suppose you thought of the new millennium when you wrote your application back in 1972 -- not only wouldn't you be invited to the party, those who knew you had done it right from the start and who probably laughed at you at the time would positively hate you now, and they sure as hell wouldn't tell people about you. and the more stupid they are, the more important it would be to pretend tha
asciilifeform: t nobody was smart enough to see the next millennium coming.'
mircea_popescu: prolly because only trolls and terrorists do that or something.
BingoBoingo: Indeed. Yes dentist brother gets his $600 bezzel per working day, but youngest brother for some reason doesn't share dentist brother's deviance.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this millenium, nobody actually saw. perhaps an excusable oversight, but still ridoinculous.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin + pgp + foss would have been a much better alternative past than fucktarded "flower power"
joecool: !s dentist
assbot: 45 results for 'dentist' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=dentist
decimation: indeed it makes RMS's retarded diatribes look more retarded
BingoBoingo: Dentist brother is an absolute hoot around marine cousins though, with their memories of ship board dentistry
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: But tis is the past!
mircea_popescu: decimation that passion could have served a smarter man better you know ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, no point crying over the mud-like stupidity of our parents.
mircea_popescu: fuck them, move on, plenty of time left in the future to do important shit.
BingoBoingo: The newest past was born in January 2013
BingoBoingo: The TiDerps were slain, righteous had a path, and Bitcoin was cemented in the following months
scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/
BingoBoingo: ^ ISIL Coin
mircea_popescu: http://jim.com/ << the page of the author of the prev quote, one James A. Donald
assbot: James's Liberty file collection index
mircea_popescu: (with http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/reign.html )
assbot: James A. Donald's Reign of Error | Anarchist Writers
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 393.93, vol: 48451.68950503 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 387.0, vol: 27136.32982 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 392.0, vol: 133267.08674263 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 393.05, vol: 44.95610677 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.424576, vol: 602246.15620000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 76.28428452 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.52026, vol: 218.25432093 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: I wonder how long the Chinese will suffer Buterin's Waterfall before forcing a showdown on the matter of STFUSA
BingoBoingo: Nao just feels so much like 11/12
BingoBoingo: Or when Nixon banished the rest of the press corps so he could talk to Hunter S. Thompson about football
asciilifeform: http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f14/Volume%201%20NNSA.pdf << mega-turd. i don't expect that anyone will read it. but i did. and will relate, how obscenely it brags about the extraordinary bezzle of the u.s. 'national ignition facility' ☟︎
asciilifeform: where, for no reason that has ever been publicly explained, laser-initiated fusion is diddled ☟︎
asciilifeform: to no result, as far as is known, ever, at any point
asciilifeform: real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing.
BingoBoingo: How many cover pages do they need
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: to cut to the chase, grep for 'ignition'
asciilifeform: incidentally, this document is a fine example of the kind of stereotypically-bureaucratic style of writing usg runs on.
asciilifeform: almost a 'newspeak'
BingoBoingo: !up u00
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71422 @ 0.00044167 = 31.545 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8778 @ 0.00044497 = 3.9059 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: !up dgeats
dgeats: ty
dgeats: ;;eregister dgeats 1A76 4B0F 58BF 87CB C03D 5A4E A6D2 72BC 41B0 824A
gribble: Error: '1A76' is not a valid GPG key id. Please use the long form 16 digit key id.
dgeats: ;;eregister dgeats A6D272BC41B0824A
gribble: Error: Could not retrieve your key from keyserver. Either it isn't there, or it is invalid.
BingoBoingo: Ah
BingoBoingo: The perils of the first time
BingoBoingo: !up bagels7
dgeats: BingoBoingo I feel like I’m putting my private keys and passwords EVERYWHERE
dgeats: aren’t they supposed to be private!!?
BingoBoingo: dgeats: PM, I'll halp troubleshoot to a point, but yes. Private keys stay private. If one of those strings you entered is a private key... Generate a new keypair.
dgeats: dude I’ve been trying for over a week
BingoBoingo: dgeats: PM, I'll walk you through.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 392.06, Best ask: 392.95, Bid-ask spread: 0.89000, Last trade: 392.95, 24 hour volume: 48213.33310422, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.170513306
dgeats: In the WoT I’m in the WoT hello bitcoin-assets!!!
BingoBoingo: ;;ident dgeats
gribble: Nick 'dgeats', with hostmask 'dgeats!~user@', is not identified.
BingoBoingo: Edward James Almost?
dgeats: dammit!
dgeats: ok I’ll go back to lurking
BingoBoingo: dgeats: No, finish your fucking registration. You needed help, help is offered, get this shit over with while someone has patience.
BingoBoingo: !up tryphe
dgeats: I’m definitely still trying searching through my open tabs on where to start
BingoBoingo: !up vexual
BingoBoingo: dgeats: Well, you could always ask vexual
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
RagnarDanneskjol: http://www.contravex.com/2014/09/23/please-to-pgp-guide-for-linux-os-x-windows/
assbot: Please To PGP (Guide for Linux, OS X, Windows) | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski
dgeats: Vexual is this a PM?
BingoBoingo: dgeats: This is main channel
dgeats: familiar with that page
dgeats: so I’m going to go to the GPG Keychain again and get another pair of keys?
BingoBoingo: dgeats: Are you familiar with http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/pgpgpg-guide/
assbot: PGP/GPG Guide | Bingo Blog
BingoBoingo: And http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication
assbot: GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26011 @ 0.00043228 = 11.244 BTC [-]
dgeats: BingoBoingo Not as familiar with your blog, I’ll read through it
BingoBoingo: !up dgeats
BingoBoingo: !up RetroUpriser
BingoBoingo: !up bagels7
RetroUpriser: Hello
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 394.63, Best ask: 394.99, Bid-ask spread: 0.36000, Last trade: 393.77, 24 hour volume: 48234.83273786, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.033997412
BingoBoingo: Hallo
RetroUpriser: Is there a market for overnight shipping of raw milk?
RetroUpriser: Its only legal to buy in CT
Vexual: I reckon
RetroUpriser: and for, ahem, generous donations, id be willing to send some raw milk
Vexual: plenty of hipsters
Vexual: what whats CT? kentucky?
BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: I'm not a big fan of Brucellosis
BingoBoingo: Vexual: CT is connecticut
Vexual: oh
BingoBoingo: !up CheckDavid
BingoBoingo: !up Ginux
thestringpuller: Hartford, CT my birthplace
BingoBoingo: The number of Homo genus members that acquires Brucellosis in Brucellosis free states amuses me
RetroUpriser: Anyone getting Brucellosis in a Brucellosis free state should be funny
BingoBoingo: Happens more often than you might suspect
Vexual: is it bad?
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Can be very bad
RetroUpriser: If you have no access to modern medicine
BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Even if. The responsible bacteria produces a good number of toxis so an antibiotic killing it creates a peak exposure to those during treatment
RetroUpriser: And i wouldnt say raw milk is the #1 way to contract it
BingoBoingo: Far from it, raw milk and beastiality are the only real ways to contract it
RetroUpriser: Which wont cause much damage unless your a pregnant woman
RetroUpriser: undercooked meat i'd say.
BingoBoingo: Oh, Brucellosis mostly kills peds patients
RetroUpriser: You should just avoid low quality food products.
RetroUpriser: in general.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38850 @ 0.00044708 = 17.3691 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: Indeed
RetroUpriser: But in the same sense, avoid all natural probiotic foods because they could be contaminated with harmful bacteria?
Vexual: raw milk is used for some cheeses perhaps?
RetroUpriser: No doubt, but so is pasturized milk.
BingoBoingo: Well the thing is something cultured with the right stuff doesn't give the wrong stuff the chance to live and you can tell by smell. It's why cheese and yogurt are safe but raw milk is a highway to the dangerzone
RetroUpriser: But no more than eating a medium rare steak from the cow producing it
Vexual: I have half a recolection that some chesse recipies prefer raw
RetroUpriser: But yeah the good bacteria will fight the bad
BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight
RetroUpriser: So you'd think but i'm sure that isn't the case alot of the time
BingoBoingo: On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit
RetroUpriser: Would you smell it in the raw milk?
BingoBoingo: In raw milk you often can't smell it.
RetroUpriser: Right, im sure there are alot of cases where meat could be infected and not show the slightest sign of it
BingoBoingo: Which is why if the milk was raw yu want it in already fermented products where either dangerous smells would be stronger or the product wouldn't appear right. Milk itself is dangerous though.
RetroUpriser: Bottom line is that you shouldn't expose yourself to unclean products when you know they are of shady origin. But when you have a local farm that you can check out and see its sanitary conditions yourself.. it takes alot of the risk out of the picture.
BingoBoingo: Meat usually isn't so bad because there's less vulnerable surface area than milk
RetroUpriser: I suppose, but im a huge fan so the risk < reward
BingoBoingo: In milk generally all of the protein and fat globules contribute to surface area
RetroUpriser: I mean, i wouldn't be drinking raw milk from walmart brand cows
BingoBoingo: I mean the surface is better defined by... solidity
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing. <<< what sense does that make ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo they don't have endemic brucellosis in the us anymore do they ?!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Not in any animal herds, but somehow children still get it
mircea_popescu: maybe it's from the us weapons stockpile.
BingoBoingo: Basically for all of the expense and derping, USDA can't actually guarentee its own guarentees
mircea_popescu: that's a thing nixon is never remembered for, ending the biological warfare stockpiles.
mircea_popescu: hadn't he done so, you'd probably have heard spineless gonzalez, bharara et all argue for the legitimacy of their use.
mircea_popescu: anyway, romania is a few of the european states that never had it. along with, iirc, switzerland.
BingoBoingo: Last I heard, USia was spicing up 9-11 with bioweapons own goals
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight << nah, most of the stuff youi can get that way you don't see.
mircea_popescu: trichinella is a fucking worm you still won't likely see it.
BingoBoingo: You see that more in pork than beef
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: beef is safer than most meats, but still. you dun see the stuff.
BingoBoingo: I mean the reason to avoid rare-ish ground beef is more sloppy meatcutters opening the colon than anything else
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo: On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit <<< im pretty sure nobody milks unwashed anymore.
mircea_popescu: for decades now.
BingoBoingo: You would think so, but in USia it isn't possible to pay enoug for a farmhand who cares to
BingoBoingo: I mean over here we grow fucking Dent corn for the sugar and actual sweet corn as a table vegetable
mircea_popescu: look at that, nif claims it actually went energy-positive last year
mircea_popescu: i had nfi.
BingoBoingo is enjoying the Sauds playing their version of Buterin's waterfall atm
BingoBoingo hasn't seen gas this cheap since 2010.
BingoBoingo: Not regularly this cheap pre-2009 in some years
BingoBoingo: Though winter of 2009 was beautiful with sub $2 per gallon gasoline.
mircea_popescu: how much is it now ?
BingoBoingo: $2.69
mircea_popescu: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/192126-lockheed-says-itll-make-a-truck-sized-fusion-reactor-within-10-years << and from the bold claims department...
assbot: Lockheed says it’ll make a truck-sized fusion reactor within 10 years | ExtremeTech
mircea_popescu: he reduced size — just 10 feet by 7 feet — will allow Lockheed to “design, build, and test the CFR in less than a year.”
mircea_popescu: how the fuck is a miniaturized version easier is beyond me.
BingoBoingo: I guess fuckups are easier to insure on a smaller reactor?
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Y u no blog yet???
mircea_popescu: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191754-cold-fusion-reactor-verified-by-third-party-researchers-seems-to-have-1-million-times-the-energy-density-of-gasoline
assbot: Cold fusion reactor verified by third-party researchers, seems to have 1 million times the energy density of gasoline | ExtremeTech
mircea_popescu: no shortage of bold claims it seesm
BingoBoingo: Eh, might as well get the bold claims in now, before the whips come
mircea_popescu: something on the magnitude order of getting fusion to work is pretty much the only way out of the slump for teh west.
BingoBoingo: Oh, but without fears of a Stalin, they only way to develop it requires insuring it.
mircea_popescu: maybe.
mircea_popescu: lots of free money may help there.
BingoBoingo: Only for so much longer
Vexual: I wonder how small they can go if smaller is easier
Vexual: oh, it says
BingoBoingo: !up jacoblyles
Vexual: BingoBoingo: Vexual: Y u no blog yet??? kalyhost stole my moeneyz
BingoBoingo: !up dgeats
Vexual: still parsing the history of pgp
BingoBoingo: Ah
Vexual: i guess
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 392.43, vol: 48264.10238920 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 385.95, vol: 24858.0845 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 393.49, vol: 115673.95376961 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 403.87, vol: 39.1832539 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.973731, vol: 599526.01520000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 70.24819212 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.322256, vol: 174.64115222 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: Oh, the Chinese lead the drop tonight
BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin << lol
assbot: Auroracoin
BingoBoingo: !up bagels7
mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin/comments/2icorq/what_killed_auroracoin/ << lolok.
assbot: What killed Auroracoin? : auroracoin
mircea_popescu: and since we're doing the internet sewer, https://bitcointa.lk/threads/definitive-proof-that-satoshi-nakamoto-is-james-a-donald.320588/
assbot: Definitive proof that Satoshi Nakamoto is James A. Donald. | Bitcointa.lk
dgeats: ;;gettrust dgeats
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask dgeats!~user@ Trust relationship from user dgeats to user dgeats: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=dgeats&dest=dgeats | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=dgeats | Rated since: never
Vexual: woot
dgeats: sup b-a
BingoBoingo: Whatever happened to Sir Reginald GreyhawK?
mircea_popescu: nothing much.
mircea_popescu: his cover being inadvertently blown, he retired.
Vexual: what happened with your hitler portait?
BingoBoingo: On that note it's bedtime and MP's BitBet penny sports bet nightmare is over.
Vexual: what's your story dgeats?
dgeats: I know nothing about computers and I’m 31 y/o
mircea_popescu: so what do you do ?
dgeats: I sell real estate
dgeats: I’m a “REALTOR”
BingoBoingo: Wait, so the FBI lives in your butt?
dgeats: wouldn’t take it from such jerks
BingoBoingo: Or is that just-Tor
dgeats: no kidding
mircea_popescu: where ?
dgeats: all very new to me
dgeats: tor browsers and irc everything
mircea_popescu: no i mean, realtor where.
dgeats: Humboldt County, CA ;)
dgeats: for real though
dgeats: been here for the past 10 years or so
dgeats: about a week into the logs, lots and lots to catch up on
mircea_popescu: ;;rate dgeats 1 CA realtor, he says.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user dgeats has been recorded.
Vexual: thats almost bens neck of the woods
mircea_popescu: dgeats pm assbot !up
dgeats: in real estate not by accident, it’s still a major part of the economy
cazalla: wonder if 8chan mystery donator is in here
dgeats: I wonder what property rights are like in Romania
mircea_popescu: dgeats they are bizarre at best.
dgeats: not “a bundle of rights” like in the states?
mircea_popescu: i wrote a little about the nuttery of it, back in romanian days. lemme see if i can find it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13900 @ 0.00044062 = 6.1246 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: http://pastebin.com/AgUhmsB1
assbot: http://trilema.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/ http://trilema.com/2 - Pastebin.com
mircea_popescu: apparently i wrote a lot.
dgeats: hmmm can’t make it out ha ha
mircea_popescu: :p
mircea_popescu: remains an enigma
dgeats: wow you actually did write about real estate in Romania
mircea_popescu: well yeah ?
Naphex: ttp://trilema.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/
Naphex: damn right click pastes :)
Naphex: hi o/.
mircea_popescu: ;)
Naphex: https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2m6rp7/hitbtc_about_to_go_mt_gox/
Naphex: that exchange smelled hell fishy from day #1 wtf
Naphex: also exchanges are hard to run, idiots should stop trying
punkman: !s hitbtc
assbot: 15 results for 'hitbtc' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=hitbtc
punkman: did they even have any customers?
mircea_popescu: Naphex im sure "customers" and "experts" will both listen to your #1 and #2 above, yeah.
mircea_popescu: they tend to read and understand, it's what they do. not like "why should i even bother with the wot" an' stuff.
Naphex: wot or any due dilligance
Naphex: punkman: they sure had lots of fake volume
mircea_popescu: or any thinking.
Naphex: mircea_popescu: BTCXchange offered SSL Authenticated with GlobalSign.EU, the registration certificate was posted. And all due dilligance info posted
Naphex: yet then people go well 'Romania!'
mircea_popescu: yeah, see, you should have had "real brick and mortar stores" in cyprus.
punkman: Naphex, could have been worse, good thing you aren't Nigerian
mircea_popescu: much better than europe's highest per capita gold reserve country o.O
Naphex: punkman: :))
Naphex: also lots of eshops going up with btcxpay for btc->ron https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855469.0
assbot: Magazine online care acceptă bitcoin prin serviciul de plată BTCXpay.ro
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79650 @ 0.00043202 = 34.4104 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34000 @ 0.00044201 = 15.0283 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: nubbins`: so maybe deedbot shouldn't be stripping the \n at eof << it's not really, just doesn't care for anything outside the first and last dash of a gpg message
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00043076 = 30.304 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: no scoopbot huh
mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/ << shit, ers had a blog ?
mircea_popescu: all these years ?!
mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too. ☟︎
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1666 @ 0.0012 = 1.9992 BTC
mircea_popescu: !up pirateoftheapes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45116 @ 0.00044343 = 20.0058 BTC [+] {2}
cazalla: putin is due to land here within a few hours with obama due in the morning
cazalla: !up vexual
punkman: does this have a good signature? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=0nULimNT
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12459 @ 0.00044714 = 5.5709 BTC [+]
Vexual: apec had those cool steven segal costumes, we prive.. heatwave
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67807 @ 0.00044716 = 30.3206 BTC [+] {2}
cazalla: so.. is qntra down for others?
punkman: yep
cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#920333 lol ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 22:25:37; mircea_popescu: rithm: it's cryptowall now and from what i can tell it's infected sites like mom & pop's ruinning old WP/drupal/some CMS <<< yeah, stuff the shitheads in question don't maintain, then i have to answer biweekly questions of "is qntra down". off with their heads i say!
punkman: cazalla, could try http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/
cazalla: punkman, i'll leave it in the hands of mp
jurov: punkman: gpg: BAD signature from "RagnarDanneskjol (fuck yo' couch) <admin@bitrecruiter.com>" [neznáme]
punkman: RagnarDanneskjol: ^
RagnarDanneskjol: thanks jurov - figured that out
jurov: btw, if i'm doing the web submission, what about js verifier? does anyone has it already?
punkman: you can try that openpgpjs thing, but why?
jurov: it looks like it needs some server part
jurov: so i'm asking
jurov: and i prefer the ability of user to check stuff on his side before uploading text and files
jurov: although... dunno if js can actually read uploaded files
cazalla: putin has touched down!
jurov: lol what?
cazalla: aus media is talking up putin being here more so than obama
jurov: what does he want from aussies?
cazalla: g20 is on and media are playing it off as putin versus our prime minister due to MH17
jurov: is that the pencilneck one? or it was canadian PM?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33000 @ 0.00044255 = 14.6042 BTC [-] {2}
cazalla: no idea, our pm said he was gonna shirt lift putin
cazalla: shirtfront even
davout: cazalla: fyi qntra is unreadable on my mobile
cazalla: davout, it's down atm or are you speaking generally
davout: generally
cazalla: i'll speak with BingoBoingo and see what we can, might be a plugin that will make it more mobile friendly
cazalla: can do*
davout: disabling all CSS would be fine
davout: that's the advantage with sites that are lightly styled, they usually degrade much better when disabling CSS
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43900 @ 0.00044844 = 19.6865 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2Mp_0iIUAAcNdn.jpg:large
jurov: ^ just for the mood
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45000 @ 0.00043999 = 19.7996 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 423 @ 0.00316761 = 1.3399 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70500 @ 0.00043719 = 30.8219 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25693 @ 0.00043813 = 11.2569 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39850 @ 0.00043902 = 17.4949 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75045 @ 0.00043536 = 32.6716 BTC [-] {3}
punkman: for future reference: "gpgv" is somewhat smaller than the fully-blown gpg and uses a different (and simpler) way to check that the public keys used to make the signature are valid.
davout: punkman: "uses a different (and simpler) way to check that the public keys used to make the signature are valid" <<< sounds sketchy
punkman: well it's official, but maybe
gernika: BingoBoingo: I liked the IsisCoin story.
BingoBoingo: Thanks gernika
notary: [trust-update] added: dgeats
BingoBoingo: http://deadspin.com/maybe-you-shouldnt-thank-this-specific-follower-patrio-1658660978 << Perils of automation
assbot: Maybe You Shouldn't Thank This Specific Follower, Patriots?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77600 @ 0.00043407 = 33.6838 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2014/11/imperial-college-host-bitcoin-technology-competition-for-students/
The20YearIRCloud: RentalStarter has set their 12th monthly dividend payment today. Total per share is 0.00002537
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://www.paymentssource.com/news/interchange/kim-kardashians-lessons-for-the-bitcoin-card-industry-3019708-1.html
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mats_cd03: im hurting from s.mpoe taking a dive
The20YearIRCloud: why'd it dive?
mats_cd03: no idea.
BingoBoingo: It's a mystery
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11862 @ 0.00043393 = 5.1473 BTC [-]
danielpbarron: ;;isitdown trilema.com
gribble: trilema.com is up
Duffer1: ;;isitdown qntra.net
gribble: qntra.net is up
Duffer1: lies
danielpbarron: yeah both appear down to me, from 3 different ips
asciilifeform: same
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 390.86, Best ask: 391.5, Bid-ask spread: 0.64000, Last trade: 391.87, 24 hour volume: 41838.99860218, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 431.59, 24 hour vwap: 403.110014299
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 21111 @ 0.00009 = 1.9 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: !up so
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38012 @ 0.00043244 = 16.4379 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: re:putin http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/russia-says-fleet-of-warships-is-off-australia-for-climate-research/story-fnpebfcn-1227123047034?nk=944f472ed8ac245182d4622953d08019
assbot: Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 400 @ 0.00652083 = 2.6083 BTC [+] {22}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51800 @ 0.00043144 = 22.3486 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: $proxies
empyex: jurov: Proxies: mpex.bz mpex.ws mpex.co mpex.biz mpex.coinbr.com Current MPEx GPG-Key-ID: 02DD2D91
empyex: jurov: MPEx-Status: mpex.biz (94 milliseconds), mpex.co (117 milliseconds), mpex.bz (168 milliseconds), mpex.coinbr.com (552 milliseconds), mpex.ws (2112 milliseconds)
empyex: jurov: Health-Indicators: Homepage: √ MK Depth JSON: √ VWAP JSON: √
jurov: ;;isup mpex.ws
gribble: mpex.ws is up
jurov: http://live.coinbr.com/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks interesting again
assbot: CoinBr Live S.MPOE
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00043461 = 1.8688 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeah im sure lol.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17600 @ 0.00043048 = 7.5764 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56300 @ 0.00043043 = 24.2332 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal
assbot: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal
xanthyos: i wish they showed the equation
mircea_popescu: dailykos, it doesn't do equations, they're racist.
BingoBoingo: Nice work MP
mircea_popescu: http://www.catb.org/~esr/aim/ < i dunno if this lulz was here.
assbot: Page not found – ibiblio
mircea_popescu: cazalla: so.. is qntra down for others? << uh i just looked at it.
mircea_popescu: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/ << lawl.
assbot: Bitcoin-Trader.Biz - Insolvent - CryptoCoinsNews
mats_cd03: funny how there's no mention of USD being worth <0.1% of BTC if it goes to 1mn BTCUSD
mircea_popescu: how you reason ?
asciilifeform: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1344589/54989752#c16 << extra lulzy
assbot: Daily Kos :: Comments: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal
mircea_popescu: jurov: what does he want from aussies? <<< russia needs military bases overseas like kim kardashian needs horsecock.
mircea_popescu: Bitcoin software does not appear to be vetted to such an extend. << the english-t to d migration is soooo indicative of a native romanian speaker you can't imagine.
asciilifeform: and u.s. illiterates.
mircea_popescu: is it ?
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: i've not commonly seen it outside of ro hack-kiddies speaking english
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, my own output lol.
mircea_popescu: davout: disabling all CSS would be fine << he has a point there, just de-css-ify it for mobile, will be fine.
asciilifeform: i've probably crapped out every conceivable kind of mistake (when hammering in real time. text that i get to read again before broadcast - another matter)
mircea_popescu: most mobile platforms have spent more money on making their thing work on unstyled websites than we ever will on qntra.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just about, as one gets tired stuff starts to mutate.
asciilifeform: fingers - will of their own.
asciilifeform: http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/notation-as-a-tool-for-thought-wavelets-in-j << for aficionados of peculiar programming systems
assbot: Notation as a tool for thought: Wavelets in J | Locklin on science
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I gave the viewport tag one last tweak, next step is yeah, just denying mobiles any styling at all beyond what they bring on their own
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48277 @ 0.00043473 = 20.9875 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just between you and me and nobody else : i very much doubt the average j user actually has the mental acumen to correctly understand the actual effects of recursive transforms available to them, wavelets or no wavelets.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol! you know actual 'j' users?!
mircea_popescu: you think coders are bad, just wait till you see mathematicians apply automated processes to statistical samples.
mircea_popescu: a few...
asciilifeform: not confusing with 'r' ?
mircea_popescu: well no
asciilifeform must have slept through the re-appearance of 'j'
mircea_popescu: as far as i can see, it's the common step away from excel
asciilifeform: i wanted a book on 'j' 5 or so years ago, had to go to a library with spy camera.
mircea_popescu: once people crash their system trying to load 1mn cells for the 1kth time
asciilifeform: around here, the 'common step away from excel' is 'r'.
asciilifeform: (open-source statistical gizmo, vaguely reminiscent of 'octave')
mircea_popescu: does it work on windows ?
asciilifeform: afaik yes.
mircea_popescu: apparently. well then i dunno.
mircea_popescu: jurov: http://live.coinbr.com/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks interesting again <<< it does, esp the week view. o.O look at that.
assbot: CoinBr Live S.MPOE
BingoBoingo: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/an-open-letter-to-jason-king-of-seans-outpost
assbot: An Open Letter to Jason King of Seans Outpost | Lets Talk Bitcoin
mircea_popescu: who;s this guy again ?
asciilifeform: 'This sort of illogic is rampant in debates about cold fusion, particularly when experts respond to irritating, unwelcome suggestions made by amateurs. They start out cautioning the amateur that instruments such as calorimeters have a margin of error, and calorimeters frequently malfunction with leaking cooling fluid and other problems. When the expert senses the message is not getting through, and the amateur
asciilifeform: still believes that cold fusion calorimetry indicates real excess heat, the frustrated expert may resort to extreme, untenable claims, such as a statement that no calorimeter has an error less than 10%, when in fact the error margin for top-quality conventional instruments is on the order of 0.1%. Or he may wave his hands and say calorimeters are so undependable that you cannot run one for more than a few days
asciilifeform: without recalibrating, when in fact a good one will run reliably for months.' ( http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf )
asciilifeform: ^ very interestingly perverse comparison of the 'titanic' aftermath and that of 'cold fusion'
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The homeless bitcoin camp
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is true tho. you familiar witrh playing pokler at all ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo oh oh. mkay.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on the vary basic level.
asciilifeform: *very
mircea_popescu: do you know what meta coincepts are, like "playing loose" or "tight" ?
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: now, thinking obviously has nothing to do with poker
asciilifeform: although 'tilt' might be the more relevant pokerism
mircea_popescu: persuasion, however, is exactly that, poker reskinned.
mircea_popescu: the most significant error of judgement made by experts as far as i've seen yet is
mircea_popescu: when confronted with an inept player they loosen up their game
mircea_popescu: this is so idiotic as to defy sufficient expression.
asciilifeform: almost as if they were living creatures trying to conserve energy or something
mircea_popescu: the #1 reason it is idiotic is that the inept player may actually and usually does notice the loosening, and takes this as a honest signal that the expert is bluffing
mircea_popescu: on the, bluffs here, bluffs everywhere heuristic
mircea_popescu: the #2 reason it is idiotic is that discussion has remanence, poker hands do not. expert 30 years in has a fucking string of noted down examples of having done this, people with an ideologic interest can use to strangle him with
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: this is something a politician is keenly aware of, but since the expert's brain actually functions, he's no politician.
asciilifeform: the linked article is at least partly about this.
asciilifeform: see also james randi's notes on how physicists are easily fooled by methods that fool not one stage magician
mircea_popescu: yup.
mircea_popescu: "gotta play the audience" means exactly that.
mircea_popescu: being a physicist doesn't make one immune, only diffusion makes one immune.
asciilifeform: robert wood was probably the one notable exception to this blindness.
asciilifeform: was an unambiguous master of both magics.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this also wraps right back up into wavelets lol.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he was an engineer.
asciilifeform: ;;google robert wood n-rays
gribble: N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray>; Robert W. Wood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Wood>; Blondlot and N-rays - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com: <http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html>
mircea_popescu: this is the definition of an engineer.
asciilifeform: wood was a proper, full-bore polymath.
asciilifeform: which, i suppose, includes engineering.
asciilifeform: 'If it ever becomes generally known that cold fusion is real, how will the scientists who opposed it react? A few may take responsibility and go down with the ship, retiring from academic life. I hope that most will regret their actions, and try to prevent such a thing from occurring again. Some will react the way Lightoller did, blaming Pons and Fleischmann. They may say the traditions and customs of science a
asciilifeform: re more important than experimental results. Lightoller, in effect, put traditions and customs ahead of the lives of passengers. To him, “the experience of years” and “what we have always done” outweighed all practical suggestions as to what we might do instead, to avoid killing thousands of people.' ☟︎
asciilifeform: story time. i don't personally have any truck with fusion, cold or not;
asciilifeform: but the phenomenon described above is entirely the root of the al schwartz equivalence principle violation experiment
asciilifeform: or rather, lack of experiment, because the entire sub-field formed a 'solid blue wall' against herr schwartz
asciilifeform: for the reason stated in the 'titanic' article.
asciilifeform: modern-day physicists want a demonstrable equivalence principle violation the way they want horsecock.
asciilifeform: or bullet in head.
BingoBoingo: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/11230144/Twitter-rated-as-junk-by-SandP-shares-drop-5pc.html
assbot: Twitter rated as 'junk' by S&P, shares drop 5pc - Telegraph
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i diun get it, who would be opposed to cold fusion and why ?
asciilifeform: the folks who built careers on (promise of) the 'hot' variety.
mircea_popescu: los_pantalones can i buy any ws puts off you btw ?
asciilifeform: (just one example)
mircea_popescu: i guess...
asciilifeform: under the bezzle, there is very little profit in solutions.
los_pantalones: ha, TWTR put ?
asciilifeform: in prolonging agony - quite a bit.
los_pantalones: why don't you list stuff like that on mpex ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, maybe im unbecomingly naive, but to my eyes cold fusion working is an event of such magnitude, it'd trigger an Auld Lang Syne moment.
mircea_popescu: los_pantalones well for lack of a mm actually.
los_pantalones: hmm
mircea_popescu: ifsomeone wanted to manage a portofolio of ws shortness for btc, it'd prolly rock.
mircea_popescu: !up cypherc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: try to picture how bitcoin would have been treated, even in the embryonic stage, if the implications for the next xxx years from it, were entirely obvious to all.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59788 @ 0.00043289 = 25.8816 BTC [-] {2}
mats_cd03: ;;calc calc [ticker --last]/(10**6)
gribble: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
mircea_popescu: maybe.
mats_cd03: ;;calc [ticker --last]/(10**6)
gribble: 0.00039599
asciilifeform: auld lang syne, lol.
mircea_popescu: except free enerngy is quite unlike bitcoin.
asciilifeform: horst wessel lied.
mats_cd03: mircea_popescu: to rephrase, the dollar would have lost 99.99% of its value on the trip to 1mn BTCUSD
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 only ~50%.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, seriously, cold fusion would actually make the "local production" stuff that link earlier was harping about a reality.
asciilifeform: would make many things.
asciilifeform: e.g., laser pistol.
mircea_popescu: it's the one card out that could save teh current usg / societal structure.
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine anyone'd manage to supress it if it could work.
asciilifeform: quite a few of the ancient science-fictional machines of early 20th c. imagination.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is why i mentioned schwartz example.
asciilifeform: very often, 'works' is like early lisp machine.
asciilifeform: unwieldy, ruinously expensive, terrible ROI.
asciilifeform: faraday's 'what use is a baby.'
asciilifeform: baby - can kill with one hand.
mircea_popescu: i dunno.
mircea_popescu: maybe. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: Lightoller is a particularly bad example, by the way.
mircea_popescu: his decisions were correct on the deck.
mircea_popescu: a ship is sinking is undisputably the worst time to be going out doing "research".
mircea_popescu: the fundamntal understanding of this is illustrated by the case made for giving people tenure and shit. research is an activity of the safe, which is why prisons and other emperor of the flies situations aren't conducive to proving the fermat conjecture.
asciilifeform: well, yes
asciilifeform: author of linked piece takes issue with l's conduct pre-sinking.
mircea_popescu: when a ship is sinking, the officer is to do EXACTLY what's done.
mircea_popescu: ah like that.
mircea_popescu: mebbe.
asciilifeform: see pg. 9.
asciilifeform: 'C: What I want to suggest to you is that it was recklessness, utter recklessness, in view of the conditions ☟︎
asciilifeform: which you have described as abnormal, and in view of the knowledge you had from various sources that
asciilifeform: ice was in your immediate vicinity, to proceed at 21.5 knots.
asciilifeform: L: Then all I can say is that recklessness applies to practically every commander and every ship crossing
asciilifeform: the Atlantic Ocean.'
asciilifeform: he's essentially sticking to the 'flondor defence.'
asciilifeform: 'everybody did it.'
mircea_popescu: i don't think they understood ice will crush the ship, tbh.
asciilifeform: curious why mr. l did not say this, then.
mircea_popescu: they thought they had built the lenin
mircea_popescu: why do you think lol.
asciilifeform: the 'uncrushable' thing was more of a marketing literature, tbh
asciilifeform: folks who actually made their living on ships, knew better.
mircea_popescu: let me model why : if i'm in that situation and you ask me that, i'ma in typical style go "wel lfrankly, i didn't believe that ice can crush steel. sue me."
mircea_popescu: so they'd hang me.
mircea_popescu: that means either i don't have kids or my kids don't do so well.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, l goes "well...derp"
mircea_popescu: did they hang him ?
mircea_popescu: so therefore!
asciilifeform: 'nobody ever got hanged for buying ibm stock.'
mircea_popescu: maybe they knew better, hard to know what individuals knew or thought. but imo, they honestl ybelieved ice is now butter, because forward britannia!
Adlai: !s isis currency
assbot: 2 results for 'isis currency' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=isis+currency
asciilifeform: speaking of ice...
asciilifeform: http://news.yahoo.com/nations-last-big-icebreaker-endures-despite-age-214106918.html
assbot: Nation's last big icebreaker endures despite age - Yahoo News
BingoBoingo: Adlai: been qntra'd http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/
assbot: ISIS Introduces Coins | Qntra.net
Adlai: ^^ this is fantastically unrelated to bitcoin
Adlai: this is about as related to bitcoin as it would be if south sudan were to mint its own pound... oh wait, they did. where's qntra on that?
mircea_popescu: Adlai terrorism. one degree of separation.
Adlai: ok, i'll admit, isiscoin serves to attract investment capital away from bitcoin, and acts as a potentially stabler store of value for dollar-averse wealth
Adlai: let's short bitcoin!
BingoBoingo: Well, a lot of the problems Bitcoin solves aren't relevant to ISIS
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, that boer war fort thing ? lol!
asciilifeform: wai wat
mircea_popescu: lightoller, back during his time in the navy, was on a ship visiting south africa during the boer war
mircea_popescu: got out in the night, put the boer flag on the local fort, filled a cannon with a blank shot and a long fuse and well...
mircea_popescu: gave the locals a start.
asciilifeform: ahaha
Adlai: BingoBoingo: "and the later is simply for hire" << what's "the later"?
BingoBoingo: Adlai: The professional Derps
BingoBoingo: People who enjoy Buterin's waterfall
BingoBoingo: ALong with the sort of marketing shill who just wants a check and will endorse any idiocy
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 330024 | Current Difficulty: 39603666252.418 | Next Difficulty At Block: 330623 | Next Difficulty In: 599 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 40043955200.5 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.11174
Adlai: !s cryptolocker usg
assbot: 1 results for 'cryptolocker usg' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=cryptolocker+usg
Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-07-2014#756099 << who's to say that isn't cryptolocker itself? ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-07-2014 02:55:38; asciilifeform: 'swamp donkey' << lol! apparently a usg version of 'cryptolocker'
Adlai just had a conversation with assbot
asciilifeform: Adlai: you must remember, we have not yet escalated to 'full throttle.'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88400 @ 0.00042788 = 37.8246 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: Adlai: there will come the day when winblows users dumb enough to run hotwallet will find their coin magicked away.
mircea_popescu: this has been reported sporadically since 2012
mircea_popescu: iirc that's when the first windows wallet stealer trojan was reported.
asciilifeform: Adlai: but today is not that day. and when it comes, it will be coated in enough parallel construction to kill a herd of elephants.
mircea_popescu: back then it was a big deal, wallets being unencrypted.
Adlai: ssh, you're leaking ideas to the fbi agents on the line
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking not of wallet stealing trojan, but of 'xxxx coin wandered off with no plausible explanation, forensic showed nothing untoward'
asciilifeform: i.e. winblows is the ultimate trojan per se.
Adlai: how can you vanish coins without leaving a forensic trail?
mircea_popescu: i dunno how win forensics work
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when anyone bothers - very laboriously, largely manually-cranked.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a skilled turdmeister (especially of the privvy-to-microshit-remote-orifice variety) will leave nothing to find.
mircea_popescu: so then there's nothing remarkable here.
Adlai: also, a skilled thief would target other stacks after/while people start leaving the brokenest one
asciilifeform: well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse.
asciilifeform: i inevitably picture a hunter, trying to avoid 'spooking' the birds
asciilifeform: inching closer, wants to bag more than one.
asciilifeform: i predict that when the hunter 'shoots', it will be 'spun' to look like a 'protocol' (or even crypto) break, of one kind or another
asciilifeform: with the inevitable shitgnome 'fixes' brought out
asciilifeform: while lies, of the 'false flag' variety, may not be the only tool in the buggers' toolbox - it is certainly their favourite. and perhaps the sharpest.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse. <<< reddit is not, contrary to what it tells itself, relevant to bitcoin
mircea_popescu: 99% of bitcoin users, according to what people think, use windows.
mircea_popescu: 99% of bitcoin belongs to the remaining 1%
asciilifeform: if only winblows were confined to some magical reddit kingdom, where all stupid folks live.
mircea_popescu: in short, there's a very deep valley between "windows user who thinks himself into bitcoin because he recognises the term" and "bitcoin user".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform jeffidiocy manages to keep idiots with benefits away from bitcoin altogether.
asciilifeform has no data on the present state of the btc musical chairs landscape and cannot say
mircea_popescu: i tell you, the anthropology of this thing has been an endless source of fascination to me
mircea_popescu: it's almost like watching a cell react in an infection, all sorts of bizarro mechanisms that you don't even dare declare exist seem to work in werido ways.
asciilifeform: likely - we will get to watch (or, feel on skin...) all of the available mechanisms.
mircea_popescu: maybe. doubt it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: jeffidiocy << there we go. herr lightoller's, too.
asciilifeform: 'best practices of the sea.'
mircea_popescu: yeah, but see that it actually "serves", depending how you put the goals on the table
mircea_popescu: anyway, to quote a bronx tale :
mircea_popescu: Come over here. Sit next to me. You must be pretty upset after the Yankees lost.
mircea_popescu: Bill Mazeroski, I hate him. He made Mickey Mantle cry. The papers said the Mick cried.
mircea_popescu: Mickey Mantle? That's what you're upset about? Mantle makes $ a year. How much does your father make?
mircea_popescu: I don't know.
mircea_popescu: You don't know. If your dad needs money, go ask Mickey Mantle. See what happens. Mickey Mantle don't care about you. Why care about him? Nobody cares.
mircea_popescu: the way people today construct their mental representations of groups and belonging is nothing short of mindblowing.
mircea_popescu: i mean, it used to be the case for children. but biological adults today are psychologically infantile, and this is by very far the most obvious effect.
xanthyos: it's tribal imprinting
mircea_popescu: what's that mean ?
asciilifeform: xanthyos: actual 'tribal' dynamics are 2-way.
xanthyos: without strong tribes or famlies to take these cues from they'll seek it elsewhere
mircea_popescu: at least in our classical understanding thereof.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41253 @ 0.00042986 = 17.733 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: xanthyos the bizarre part is that they somehow manage to seek it in imagination.
mircea_popescu: pretty much the only tech left that works in the english speaking world is the tech that manipulates this at first view pathological "one way belonging" thing.
mircea_popescu: i guess we could call it "marketing" for lack of terminology.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/ << amusingly enough, it's mostly NOT government issue.
assbot: “You’re the guy who wasn’t good enough to sling dope.” pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: in fact, the usg seems moreover its prey than anything.
xanthyos: i've seen a video of a duck nursing from a cat because its own mother was gone.
asciilifeform: duck!?!?!
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/11ARGS0.txt )
asciilifeform: !b 2 ✂︎
asciilifeform goes out to shop for duck milk
xanthyos: if you can convince your customer that you can literally breastfeed them they'll trust you forever
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do you think they make duck tape ?
mircea_popescu: polymerized duck galactose.
xanthyos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqTHhdCQko
assbot: Cat nurses Ducklings - YouTube
asciilifeform remembers very fine soviet chocolates 'bird's milk'
mircea_popescu: romania has "chicken milk", http://www.culinar.ro/retete/dulciuri/creme/lapte-de-pasare-iese-sigur/46/2/6925/
assbot: Lapte de pasare (iese sigur) - Culinar.ro
xanthyos: it's sad when they actually seek out mickey mantle to get reciprocation though
undata: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggalo << the "need to belong"
assbot: Juggalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this may actually be the very same filling as in 'bird's milk'
mircea_popescu: prolly.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D1%8C%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE_(%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F)
assbot: Птичье молоко (кулинария) — Википедия
mats_cd03: http://thestack.com/chakravarty-tor-traffic-analysis-141114 via /.
mircea_popescu: lol your percentile language
asciilifeform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptasie_mleczko << apparently englisch exists
assbot: Ptasie mleczko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
mircea_popescu: ow shit that LOOKS like excellent chocolate.
mircea_popescu: exactly the right sheen. damn you stanislav!
asciilifeform: incidentally i get these in usa. though no idea for how much longer.
asciilifeform: afaik poroshenko runs the factory.
undata: the juggalo thing is a bizarre example of marketing turning into some weird semblance of a 2-way belonging
asciilifeform: (or perhaps not. i do know he's corralled a good fraction of the 'russian' confections business)
mircea_popescu: ;;ud juggalo
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=juggalo | juggalo. For the most part, an uneducated, pathetic excuse for a human being who listens to the group ICP who are bold enough to actually consider themselves ...
undata: mircea_popescu: american white trash who literally dress like clowns
TomServo: Here's a comical introduction to Juggalos for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulGaxBPk2jI&list=UUfR7gRIYmZbGjhhrRJCwpmw
assbot: Joe Goes JUGGALO - YouTube
undata: they apparently have a whole religion
mircea_popescu: some sort of insane clown o nm that's what icp means huh
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: iirc the method was published before, some months ago
TomServo: they follow icp, yes
mircea_popescu: sorta glam-punk offshot thing
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: made no major splash, for some reason
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: traffic analysis is easy, cheap, fun. consider analogy of the children's game 'sea battle.'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32839 @ 0.00042556 = 13.975 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: dude, topless chicks being a big deal, you already know you must be in ameristan
mircea_popescu: im not even sure whats more ridiculous, the rednecks or the mainstream.
asciilifeform: or how one might determine the electrical circuits in an old house (by unscrewing breakers at random)
cazalla: mircea_popescu: cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal <<< great and informative article!
assbot: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal
mircea_popescu: cazalla lol they di what they can
mats_cd03: asciilifeform: i'm surprised it took this long. its been alive. what. 10+ years?
mats_cd03: not the doing of the analysis, but dissemination of results
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: they print now, not wishing to risk obsolescence
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 it didn't take this long, that tor was routinely compromised was an open secret.
mircea_popescu: course, when i said so last year the derps went on derping, but why would the derps count here.
asciilifeform found it very surprising that tor survived as a going concern after 'heartbleed'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something tells me i won't be getting the "mp's blog, first place to announce tor is shit, a year or so ago" all over the "tech" "press". just like i didn't get the "mp forces wikileaks to release unedited cables by publishing the romanian subset" a few years back
mircea_popescu: because why report, right, there's all these fucktards that need to wonder "what mainstream nobody agrees with mp", as if that's the fucking criteria nao, we vote for knowledge.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-06-2014#700916 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 04-06-2014 00:08:26; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the buggers' traditional defense is to pretend that the event was a non-event - or, if this is impractical, to continue living in an imaginary world where they 'scooped' the story first, and all of the 'unsanctioned' discussion never happened.
mircea_popescu: myeah. and this matters, because the non-wot world is like, totally a world and anything, and what happens outside of b-a ctually happens, and non-notarized documents actually carry weight and everything
mircea_popescu: trust teh power of dreamz!
asciilifeform: 'we have always been at war with [east|eur]asia.'
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is the best of all worlds, tbh. i'd get really pissy in short order if reddit actually knew what's what
mircea_popescu: and i couldn't get out of bed without 5000 "hey mp, what do you think of this toaster" "is bitcoin going up i must know because of my 0.05 btcent investment!"
asciilifeform: reddit, as i understand, is a world of 'class 3' learners - 'must piss on electric fence himself'
mircea_popescu: if this is true, how did they come to the conclusion women dislike being raped ?
mircea_popescu: not that it's false, but they're not women. so... how ?
asciilifeform: not clear that these folks have an actual take on the subject. parroting usg religion - yes.
mircea_popescu: that's learning no ?
asciilifeform: but on the subject of, e.g., tor, they have both words and deeds.
asciilifeform: and will end up learning from the electric fence.
mircea_popescu: very much doubt it.
asciilifeform: are, in fact, already being taught by it
mircea_popescu: imo, they're 4th level learners. will not learn from thought ; nor from other
mircea_popescu: s experience, nor from their own.
asciilifeform: 'the hunchback will be straightened by his grave.'
mircea_popescu: will ONLY learn from fiction, inasmuch as they find a way to link it to their own fiction.
mircea_popescu: basically, to teach a muppet something you must construct a literary work which jives with the preexisting dreamworld he inhabits
nubbins`: closed encounters of the 4th kind
mircea_popescu: which is how they all "learned" all about mordor.
asciilifeform: it does happen that 'fanons' conflict, though.
mircea_popescu: they don't know how to compute whether x option ios better than y option in any situation, but they do know you don't just walk into mordor
mircea_popescu: of course it does, but so ? energy states in a semiconductor also conflict, in the abstract
mircea_popescu: what's that do for any cell ?
asciilifeform: somebody had an essay on 'knowledge vs. suggestively-named strings'
mircea_popescu: where ?
asciilifeform: http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~alexs/classes/2011_Spring_585X/readings/02_Principles/AI_Meets_Natural_Stupidity.pdf ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: ancient scan.
asciilifeform: not readily deturdifiable.
asciilifeform: but is an iconic cult-classic (mcdermott, 1976)
mircea_popescu: lmao the title promises
asciilifeform: it's an epic paper, that not merely rained but pissed on the exuberant 'ai' parade of the '70s academe.
nubbins`: skim milk is rotten
nubbins`: it's fucking grey
mircea_popescu: ew
asciilifeform: 'programs to a great degree are problems rather than solutions. If a researcher tries to write an "understanding" program, it isn't because he has thought of a better way of implementing this well-understood task, but because he thinks he can come closer to writing the implementation. If he calls the main loop of his program "UNDERSTAND ', he is (until proven innocent) merely begging the question. He may mislea
asciilifeform: d a lot of people, most prominently himself, and enrage a lot of others.'
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: weizenbaum, author of iconic 'eliza', also understood how little a mechanism really needs to 'understand' in order to give an idiot the illusion of 'understanding.'
asciilifeform: (not related to above, but a contemporary)
mircea_popescu: 'It follows that he cannot know that certain people at certain times do not understand in Parry-or Eliza-like ways. That is to say, he has no way of knowing that we do not ourselves sometimes function by means of "clever tricks".' actually, i will go as far as to say that it is always certainly the case understanding happens through "clever tricks"
mircea_popescu: it is NEVER the case anyone ever understood anything whatsoever in any case at any point in human history
mircea_popescu: [self]delusion to the contrary notwithstanding.
asciilifeform: he is thinking of another variety of clever tricks.
asciilifeform: the mechanized stage magic of eliza
mircea_popescu: is he ?
mircea_popescu: that's exactly what i mean.
asciilifeform: i'd have to disagree that 'understand' is a null-word.
mircea_popescu: go right ahead, but what else do you bring ?
asciilifeform: people have never been seen to, e.g., rotate themselves in 4th d. and end up rechiralled. but they do occasionally understand things.
asciilifeform: at least, beyond 'eliza' level.
mircea_popescu: let us not discuss this in terms of understanding, something we care about. let us instead discuss in terms of love, something we don't care about.
asciilifeform: ?
mircea_popescu: so : your idea of understanding would be in fact "transformative love". ie, it'd give you the ability to turn, if not marble into virgin, at least whore into housewife.
mircea_popescu: dja think this was ever displayed ?
asciilifeform must confess he is rather puzzled at this point
mircea_popescu: whyssat ?
asciilifeform: well, if i had to give an example of 'understanding', involving 'transformation', i'd offer the transformation of pebbles on a beach (original 'calculation') into well, calculation, and mathematics, and, ..., nukes.
mircea_popescu: nah.
asciilifeform: wide net, but somewhere in it there flops a fish, 'understanding'
undata: one of you is using understand in a much stricter sense than the other.
mircea_popescu: the sort of understanding you propose is a relationship between mind and object that's transcendental. the ready comparison is the supposed transcendental relation between man and woman.
mircea_popescu: outside of this, all that's left is eliza-understanding.
mircea_popescu: and, obviously, fucking. ie, a manipulation of the subject according to the rules of the reality it inhabits.
mircea_popescu: what eliza does, what no strings attached sex is.
mircea_popescu: if you recognise a naive romanticism in one field, the other should also be obvious.
mircea_popescu: all women are whores and all thinkers are eliza.
asciilifeform: all microscopes are hammers.
nubbins`: all scarves are farts
mircea_popescu: the ability of whores to distinguish themselves from "those cheap streetwalkers" is not that important globally.
mircea_popescu: having more to do with ego and stress than anything
undata: "modeling is by definition incomplete" ?
mircea_popescu: undata if you will. asciilifeform yes, essentially, which is why the microscope hammer thing never persuaded me.
asciilifeform is firmly persuaded that every microscope is a hammer. however, not every hammer is a microscope, demonstrably. and therein lies the boojum.
mircea_popescu: not every hammer is a microscope TO YOU
mircea_popescu: not every whore is a partner you'd entertain, but that has little to do with the principles involved.
asciilifeform: the principle involved, i must confess, escapes me
mircea_popescu: let's approach on a different tack.
asciilifeform: and i'm not altogether certain that i'd profit from grasping it
mircea_popescu: what is the method through which i could write software that distinguishes between actual science and global-warming-science ?
asciilifeform: even the elixir of distinguishing cat from dog by mechanical means, so far escapes programmers.
asciilifeform: who would even dare to ask about sciences.
mircea_popescu: well, the reason might be that there couldn't be such a thing. there's nothing that makes "good science" better than a pile of shanonized papers.
mircea_popescu: you can test them, of course, but this is practically speaking aesthetics.
asciilifeform: aha i see where this is going.
mircea_popescu: so, yeah. all thinkers are eliza, the distinguishing among elizas, like among whores, purely an application of one's own aesthetic preference.
nubbins`: no true eliza would offer such an argument
asciilifeform: 'don't worry, sizzling in electric chair, ohm's law is a lie'
asciilifeform: the difference between the flesh before and after, 'aesthetic preference'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you a current dreaming it's frying a butterfgly etc
nubbins`: and somewhere, somewhen, the sound of keys clacking on a keyboard was heard
asciilifeform: l0l
nubbins`: ha
undata: "gravity" holds the moon to the earth
nubbins`: _/ -_- _/
mircea_popescu: undata the argument mind, isn't that some eliza-trees don't make much better looking reality-clothes than others.
mircea_popescu: the argument is whether they're actually different.
mircea_popescu: if one function returns rnd(0,15) and the other rnd(20,42) it is easy to establish which returns the larger number,
mircea_popescu: but that doesn't mean they're not the same damned function.
asciilifeform: afaik western traditions of sophistry are not even the most die-hard adherents of this idea. in some variants of islam, they actually believe that 'if the circuit works, it was will of allah' and nothing more
mircea_popescu: and the brain is in no sense and to no degree a logic processing machine.
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> the argument is whether they're actually different. <<< in the sense that each game of wol is actually different
asciilifeform: and today perhaps the allmighty favours ohm's law, tomorrow - not
mircea_popescu: nor, ironically, are actual logic processing machines all that intelligent.
mircea_popescu: to us at least.
mircea_popescu: nubbins` quite.
asciilifeform: brain is logic machine like brick is flying machine.
mircea_popescu: pretty much yeah.
mircea_popescu: "it can be made to"
asciilifeform: in precisely that way.
undata: mircea_popescu: I'm still chewing on "different" how?
nubbins`: relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKrskPyBuI
assbot: TripTank - Stoned Ape Theory - YouTube
mircea_popescu: not that any of these subtle considerations have any sort of practical effect or importance,
mircea_popescu: but since the article spoke of "substance" in thought... well...
mircea_popescu: there's no substance to thought.
undata: nubbins`: flashback to 19, tripping like hell, trying to find a firm thought to stand upon
asciilifeform: the idea in the article can (and has) been rephrased like this. if you remove all the 'suggestively-named strings' like 'understand' - and replace with 'gensyms' - e.g., 100324 - does the resulting machine still do or even appear to do anything of interest? ☟︎☟︎
nubbins`: undata terrorizing realization that no such thing exists, etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but my point is that this argument misses the very point of what thought is.
undata: nubbins`: I started laughing my ass off and gave up
mircea_popescu: that's what thought is, entirely, all the time : suggestively named strings.
asciilifeform: say, if it was able to distinguish cat from dog, and now operates an automated dogcatcher, prior to the renaming of strings, and still can - there was 'substance.'
mircea_popescu: to the code.
mircea_popescu: ok, let me phrase it thus :
mircea_popescu: mp's lemma of artificial intelligence requires any computer program that exhibits in fact ai to depend in its functioning on the naming of its functions, and that self-metaprogramming be a part of its working.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the self-evolving fpga?
mircea_popescu: ok, great example.
asciilifeform: the one where not a single thing about the circuit made sense to the human dissector
mircea_popescu: that thing IS intelligent, just like me and you and the dragonfly.
asciilifeform: but for the fact that it worked.
asciilifeform: where are the namings?
mircea_popescu: how would i know ?
asciilifeform: we might be speaking of different things then, re: 'names'
mircea_popescu: ok, let's re-rephrase :
mircea_popescu: any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI.
asciilifeform: what 'ai and stupidity' was about, was an actual pestilence of pseudoscience, where folks convinced themselves and others that they were accomplishing 'great things' while really pulling each other's dicks in a most stultifying way
mircea_popescu: o for sure, im not even getting into the point of the article. i just went on a tangent for objection reasons, like i do.
asciilifeform: ahahaha.
undata tries to create an arbitrary symbol in his mind
asciilifeform: ;;google gensym
gribble: Gensym | Real-Time Management of Mission Critical Systems: <http://www.gensym.com/>; Product | Gensym: <http://www.gensym.com/en/product>; Gensym G2 2011 EDITIONS – Product Detail | Gensym: <http://www.gensym.com/en/product/G2>
undata: Core dumped.
asciilifeform: damn, sp4mz0rs
asciilifeform: ;;google gensym common lisp
gribble: GENSYMs - Common Lisp HyperSpec (TM): <http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_gensym.htm>; Macros: Defining Your Own - gigamonkeys: <http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html>; hygiene-versus-gensym - Community-Scheme-Wiki: <http://community.schemewiki.org/?hygiene-versus-gensym>
asciilifeform: ^ best representation of the concept i know of
asciilifeform: creates a symbol with no meaning other than identity (cannot add, subtract it, it only has a name and the only permitted operation is determination of identity)
asciilifeform: and, well, assignment
undata: hm
mircea_popescu: i don't think that violates my restatement.
asciilifeform: it's a humble tool, no ai to it at all
asciilifeform: a 'nut' or 'bolt' that i use daily.
mircea_popescu: well yeah but if it did violate restatement then either i'm wrong or no ai can be made to run on lisp machine.
asciilifeform: (gensym) just coughs up a guaranteed-unique object.
mircea_popescu: is this provable to actually work all the time ?
asciilifeform: until exhausted memory.
mircea_popescu: hm
asciilifeform: typically implemented using a counter
mircea_popescu: that smashes eventually no ?
asciilifeform: common lisp numeric tower is a bignum tower
mircea_popescu ponders.
asciilifeform: so, in principle, if the machine were to do nothing but cough up 'gensyms' for a few millenia, you will exhaust memory.
asciilifeform: depending on how quickly you can increment
asciilifeform: (and how long machine lasts)
mircea_popescu: i superficially suspect this discussion proves there can never be turing ai.,
mircea_popescu: lisp machine being turing equivalent
asciilifeform: (of course, a gensym, if not garbage collected, also occupies a cell of memory)
asciilifeform: the 'super-turing' machine remains a mystical unicorn.
mircea_popescu: myeah
asciilifeform: not that it has been shown not to exist, but has about the same status as 'god'
asciilifeform: that is, a favourite preoccupation of crackpots of all stripes, and from the whole spectrum of scientific literacy - but no results.
mircea_popescu: well, the only way to build one may be to first build a planet, then let cnc evolve.
mircea_popescu: cns*
asciilifeform: what bothers me most is that most of the 'askers' have no idea what they actually want.
asciilifeform: (from a hypothetical 'ai')
asciilifeform: mechanical best friend?
mircea_popescu: a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house, ☟︎
mircea_popescu: while no identifiable part of the code deals with housebuilding.
asciilifeform: not necessarily disputing the hypothesis - but why the preoccupation with non-identifiable parts?
mircea_popescu: if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent.
asciilifeform: see, we can take this into a place you probably did not intend to go:
asciilifeform: consider 'langton's ant.'
mircea_popescu: lets see!
asciilifeform: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LangtonsAnt.html
assbot: Langton's Ant -- from Wolfram MathWorld
asciilifeform: very simple rules (described on linked article)
asciilifeform: you can write him yourself and try.
mircea_popescu: see, that "intend to go" is exactly why the preoccupation with non identifiability.
mircea_popescu: fuckall cares what i intend.
asciilifeform: well think to the end.
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent. <<< mis lados!!
asciilifeform: what we know is that everyone who ever tried langton's ant, notices that he always 'builds a road'
asciilifeform: no matter what is on the playing field at the beginning
asciilifeform: or what 'bombs' (to use 'war of life' terminology) you drop.
asciilifeform: sooner or later - he builds it.
asciilifeform: could be after thousands of moves.
mircea_popescu: okay.
asciilifeform: no one has proven anything, afaik, of substance, about whether the ant will always build the road.
asciilifeform: but experimentally no one has (yet) found counter-example.
mircea_popescu: so your argument is that ant meets my definition of ai ?
asciilifeform: well, that part.
asciilifeform: yes.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13889 @ 0.0004217 = 5.857 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: how do you identify a highway as a house ?
asciilifeform: same way you identify a house as a house.
mircea_popescu: say if you showed this process to 1k randomly selected 5 yos, would they say "it built itself a house" ?
asciilifeform: who am i to say that a repeating cycle of moves is not 'house' for the automaton.
nubbins`: ^
mircea_popescu: to us.
mircea_popescu: not to it. that's the point. to us.
asciilifeform: the way that my 4 walls are a repeating cycle of moves to me.
mircea_popescu: *we* have to recognise what it does.
asciilifeform: this goes back to my complaint about the ai wishers. they aren't asking for 'intelligence', just a mechanical but recognizable version of themselves
asciilifeform: or, at least, what they think of as themselves.
mircea_popescu: well, this definition is, "when you recognise what's being done, but neither why nor how, you're confronted with intelligence"
undata: seems a lot that passes for human intelligence is driven by autonomous processes evolution carved into us, just like the ant
mircea_popescu: this is counterintuitive, because we're very ethnicallyclose, so to speak,
nubbins`: recognize is an overly broad term for this discussion
asciilifeform: or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet.
mircea_popescu: so we eliza-recognise what WE do on the grounds of culture and convention
mircea_popescu: when intelligences meet without that basis, superamazement ensues.
undata: when two of those ants hit each other, do they combine their "houses"?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, see, it's not a black box.
nubbins` recalls the (clarke?) short story about an intelligent electrical field
Adlai: excellent turminology, this! http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Turmite.html
assbot: Turmite -- from Wolfram MathWorld
asciilifeform: this is an ancient argument - 'the sea is very intelligent but we just aren't protocol compatible and can't see that it's even alive'
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI. << this obviously requires you to be allowed under the hood.
asciilifeform: i have limited patience for it because of the sheer lack of predictive power.
mircea_popescu: otherwise windows is ai for crying out loud.
undata: nubbins`: Greg Egan did one with intelligent turbulence
nubbins`: asciilifeform unfortunately the sea won't be seen as alive until after it's dead D:
asciilifeform: undata: yes i recall that one. 'dust.'
mircea_popescu: well it all started with you asking for a definition of ai.
nubbins`: i recall reading a young adult novel about intelligent crystals
nubbins`: suspended in fluid iirc
nubbins`: one of those "my teacher is an alien" type ones
asciilifeform: undata: in fact, i recall that he had a character who is being marched to a mafia execution, and offered a magic pill before being shot. the pill wakes him up to the idea that his mind is already being simulated on a 'computer' made of space dust, somewhere, if only 'interpreted correctly'
Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922181 << so do you count an entire beehive/anthill as intelligent, but not any single member individually? ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-11-2014 21:44:39; mircea_popescu: a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house,
mircea_popescu: Adlai yes, actually.
mircea_popescu: perhaps except for the queen, but that's an endless discussion.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet. << incidentally, the brain seems to fit this quite exactly.
nubbins`: i know people claim that there's an upper bound on the complexity that can form in a cellular-automaton-type system with simple rules
Adlai: you could roughly equate the queen of an ant colony to a human brain's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_formation#Clinical_significance ?
assbot: Reticular formation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
nubbins`: but i feel like the upper bound is significantly higher than people realize
mircea_popescu: Adlai maybe, but i'm very wary of recent brainscience.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: none of the claims, for whatever measure of 'complexity', amount to anything more than farts in the wind.
Adlai: which is why I linked to clinical examples, rather than speculation
asciilifeform: nubbins`: see the discussion last year of the 'entropy' of the digits of 'pi'.
asciilifeform: they max out every known measure
asciilifeform: (save for one.)
Adlai: would the same happen to an ant colony if you kidnapped the queen?
asciilifeform: and at the same time, the digits can be spat out by a very simple mechanism.
nubbins`: asciilifeform i fell into a black hole halfway through my cs/math joint major on points like these
asciilifeform: (see bailey borwein plouffe.)
mircea_popescu: Adlai generally most ant colonies have emergency backups always ready
mircea_popescu: if queen dies newborn queen emerges almost immediately.
mircea_popescu: some collapse tho, for various reasons
asciilifeform: this is no more surprising than skin on your finger regrowing.
mircea_popescu: right
Adlai: in humans neurons, queen damage is recoverable, with assistance from other colonies
mircea_popescu: well not really, neurons don't regrow like ants do.
asciilifeform: (there is some dispute re: whether and under what circumstances neurons regrow.)
Adlai: they could with external support. maybe not today, but it's easily possible within a few hundred years.
mircea_popescu: as opposed to moderately possible within a few thousand years ?
asciilifeform: lol!
mircea_popescu: how'dja compute those parameters ?
nubbins`: heh.
Adlai: well my initial random was "certain within decades", but then I toned it down a few orders of fartitude
mircea_popescu: lol
nubbins`: i was going to guess you used differential equations
Adlai: the exact timescale doesn't matter, it'll happen
mircea_popescu: you can feel it in your urine ?
Adlai: you don't think this is possible?
undata: What if certain things are just out of reach? Maybe the complete model is simple, but the approximations leading to it are larger than brains can handle?
nubbins`: see symbolic integration vs numerical methods
mircea_popescu: Adlai i have no idea, but i suspect your conviction is more informed by a faint whiff of a personal desire to survive/fear of death than anything else.
nubbins`: undata the complete model has maybe 2 rules tops
Adlai: of course. i'd say it's less a fear and more an underlying aspiration
undata: nubbins`: who knows; not I
nubbins`: nor anyone
mircea_popescu: Adlai why would you want to live forever already.
Adlai: to see what happens
mircea_popescu: haven't had enough of idiots yet ?
nubbins`: i suppose if you want to get cheeky it's (1) wiggle (2) if bumped, wiggle less
mircea_popescu: yeah, what is going to happen. i wonder.
nubbins`: we're just starting from a really really complex initial state ;D
asciilifeform: 'live long enough to see the buggers off.'
asciilifeform: modest aspiration.
mircea_popescu: lol
Adlai: :-o "millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" by the guy who died on a Sunday afternoon
asciilifeform: arse longa, cocka shorta.
asciilifeform: or what did mircea_popescu say.
undata: most of the things in my head, somebody/something else put there
Adlai: although I doubt LA was rainy in june
undata: not much lost when I die
undata: and I question the "most"
Adlai: http://youtu.be/NoAzpa1x7jU
assbot: Blade Runner - Final scene, "Tears in Rain" Soliloquy (HD) - YouTube
asciilifeform: 'i have seen the ships on fire at the edge of orion...'
asciilifeform: that one/
asciilifeform: .
mircea_popescu: undata i recall reading this east-side of cold war story (rdg it was i think ?), about the drink that bestowed immortality, and how obnoxious old people were, 700+ yo clinging on to life to "see who wins whatever games"
asciilifeform: probably one of the best known scenes in all of film.
mircea_popescu: in fairness, the commies were very well familiar with the problem of just-wont-fucking-die-already dinosaurs
mircea_popescu: something the us is getting more and more acquainted with.
asciilifeform: ahahaha lol yes
nubbins` ponders turmite / langton's ant steady states as analogies for steady states in human behaviour
asciilifeform: ;;google gerontocracy
gribble: Gerontocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerontocracy>; Gerontocracy - Merriam-Webster Online: <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gerontocracy>; Gerontocracy | Define Gerontocracy at Dictionary.com: <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gerontocracy>
asciilifeform: wow no specifically soviet refs
Adlai: !s bill maher
assbot: 6 results for 'bill maher' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bill+maher
nubbins`: somewhere out there, a guy named langton is eating chips on the couch and watching seinfeld. again.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's the normally sclerotic reaction of society to a dissolution of values
mircea_popescu: the east destroyed its value system "for socialism"
mircea_popescu: the west did too, for... well... "fairness" i guess, same bs.
mircea_popescu: only way to select people now is age, which explains disasters like nanci pelosi
Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919815 << what'll happen once old people live long enough to form their own tribes/societies? would this be some weird form of speciation? ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 14:50:21; xanthyos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kWaKhrpa28
undata: mircea_popescu: seems the hive would lose the ability to adapt without some mental youth elixir being invented alongside
mircea_popescu: but see... because of the "nonviolent principle" or w/e, it doesnt HAVE TO adapt anymore.
asciilifeform: Adlai: for that to work, different definition of 'old' would have to apply.
undata: mircea_popescu: and the lamb laid down with the lion
undata does big arms
asciilifeform: Adlai: you don't really see, e.g., 40 y.o. 'speciating' into own socity from 30 y.o
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't get out much, do you ?
asciilifeform: nope.
nubbins`: heh
mircea_popescu: 40yo male, with a buncha chicks. 20 yo male, in a group of derps.
mircea_popescu: quite fucking speciously speciated.
asciilifeform: opposite arrangement here
mircea_popescu: hence speciously :D
Adlai: and i'm wondering what will happen once we have a MUCH wider age range of active individuals
asciilifeform: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2012/09/le-vieillard-gros.html << obligatory mr. o on old age
assbot: ClubOrlov: Le Vieillard Gros
Adlai: which will certainly happen within decades!
mircea_popescu: no it wont
mircea_popescu: part of the reason there's going to be blood is that there's too many old people.
asciilifeform: flying on cold-fusion (or fart) powered rocket packs, yes.
Adlai: well, old people who don't keep supporting themselves enough to stay alive without support from other tribes... will die of old age
mircea_popescu: incidentally, my favourite discussion of the topic is balzac. eugenie grandet.
mircea_popescu: Adlai you don't understand. there's nothing more readily cohesive of a group than hatred for old people.
mircea_popescu: look into london riots.
asciilifeform: !s harpagon
assbot: 4 results for 'harpagon' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=harpagon
Adlai: so they'll hire xenotribal mercenaries
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: are you like, new under the sun ?
Adlai: such as... police forces, armies, etc
mircea_popescu: suppose kim kardashian goes around drunk in the bad part of detroit, gets raped by a gang of thugs
mircea_popescu: hires a different gang of thugs to... kill the first gang ?
mircea_popescu: sure. they also fuck her, then they go have a drink with the first gang, exchange impressions.
asciilifeform: afaik traditional scheme is for the armies to fight in perpetual deadlock, as if they were the ruminants with horns set at such an angle as to be of no use
Adlai: basically, that's what happens when tribes/nation[/-]states attack eachother
asciilifeform: while herr harpagon watches and laughs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that scheme only works when there's few old guys.
mircea_popescu: well, actually, i suspect old gals is more of a burden, but who knows.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there are still 'few old guys.' they see the remaining many as impostors, but are not particularly afraid of them. they have pills for this ('obamacare' etc.)
mircea_popescu: i guess.
mircea_popescu: but the problem is the swarming instinct.
asciilifeform: pelosi is not in any sense afraid of random mrs. smith
mircea_popescu: you know, peacible grasshoppers suddenly change mode because they got touched on the toes by others too many times.
mircea_popescu: no, but her ability to continue in relevance is a strict function of how many mrs smith johnny perceives a day.
mircea_popescu: because if he perceives too many, he's going to go "fuck you, and your laws, and your union"
mircea_popescu: something like the ferguson stuff.
asciilifeform: quite a few folks say 'ferguson' when discussion hypothetical phase transition, but i must disagree.
asciilifeform: lizard-hitler loves it when his zoo animals fight ineffectually among themselves
mircea_popescu: fine, whatever unquenchable permariots. the paris stuff.
asciilifeform: burn down own tenements, etc.
asciilifeform: same deal there
mircea_popescu: now look. im not saying the small scale thing is effectual.
asciilifeform: usa had a much closer shave before
mircea_popescu: what i am saying is that the mechanism clearly exists.
asciilifeform: if you visit wash.,d.c. you can see that in the '70s a good chunk of the place got 'detroit'ed.
asciilifeform: but not the organs of usg, nor of finance.
mircea_popescu: this is exactly how capitals work
mircea_popescu: same happened to bucharest, also in 70s
asciilifeform: mechanism exists, but i have no idea what it looks like in application to modern usa.
mircea_popescu: i suspect also moscow
asciilifeform: and neither does anyone else
mircea_popescu: well me either, what am i. mafalda.
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: vanga!
asciilifeform: (ru equivalent)
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: (for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.) ☟︎☟︎
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92800 @ 0.00042935 = 39.8437 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: so basically we could say it's "the understanding" of magnetism ?
asciilifeform: at least partly.
asciilifeform: 'the map is not the territory, but you can't fold up the territory and fit it in your glove compartment.'
cazalla: wru scoopbot, http://qntra.net/2014/11/nasaa-top-investor-threats/
assbot: NASAA: Top Investor Threats | Qntra.net
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3381 @ 0.00042935 = 1.4516 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: oh noez, competing chumpatrons, must d3str0y
mircea_popescu: da fuck is nasaa
mircea_popescu: all these important things i don't know about!
asciilifeform: http://worth1000.s3.amazonaws.com/submissions/183500/183879_8c00_625x1000.jpg
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: can this be like, our god ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: cool.
mircea_popescu: lizard hitler is nowwith bitcoin jesus.
TheNewDeal: lizard hitler is dating bitcoin jesus?
TheNewDeal: !s bitcoin jesus
assbot: 64 results for 'bitcoin jesus' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitcoin+jesus
cazalla: ignoring the paedos, i thought this was a good model for a porn site http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/11/09/as-drug-markets-are-seized-pedophiles-launch-a-crowdfunding-site/
assbot: While Markets Get Seized: Pedophiles Launch a Crowdfunding Site - Deep Dot Web
cazalla: what are the odds such a site is a honey pot?
asciilifeform: !s the man who was thursday
assbot: 4 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday
mircea_popescu: cazalla about 11 in 5.
asciilifeform: cazalla: the whole thing exists only as a honeypot, even when it doesn't.
asciilifeform: what is a honeypot if not each and every criminal undertaking that steps outside of its 'wot' ?
asciilifeform: and opens self to strangers
asciilifeform: (for whatever value of 'criminal', in whatever kingdom or time)
asciilifeform: at any rate, the incentive for the buggers to fabricate 'terrorist atrocities' is so overwhelming, that any such item is guilty until proven innocent of being just such a crock of shit.
asciilifeform: not that i personally give a damn whether a particular honeypot is artificial or 'wild.'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00043338 = 4.9839 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/i-dont-know-what-the-hell-i-said-i-gave-her-an-ultimatum-and-theres-nothing-i-can-do-its-a-machine-the-little-light-is-blinking-right-now-come-and-listen-to-the-idiot-hey-everybody-the-i/
assbot: I don’t know what the hell I said. I gave her an ultimatum and there’s nothing I can do. It’s a machine. The little light is blinking right now: ‘Come and listen to the idiot. Hey everybody, the idiot’s on!’ pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
asciilifeform: lol!
mircea_popescu: hehe
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu lets nothing go to waste.
mircea_popescu: i am an ant!
cazalla: Eliza needs a footnote?
mircea_popescu: well for prosteriority.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90950 @ 0.00042509 = 38.6619 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: where prost means stupid, at least in romanian.
asciilifeform: 3rd conference << 2nd?
asciilifeform: (endnote vi)
mircea_popescu: $conference
empyex: mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 5 months and 3 days. Estimated cost today: 3.30951486 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )
mircea_popescu: right you are
asciilifeform: unless there was a lizards-only 0th conference...
asciilifeform: herr dooglus must be on an ip-over-dead-goat acoustic-coupler modem...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually weizenbaum's story is more interesting than the 'prosteriority' lets on.
asciilifeform: many people figured it out very quickly.
asciilifeform: but his secretary (young woman) - notably - did not
asciilifeform: and insisted that the thing was 'alive' and 'understood her'
mircea_popescu: yup. it works as a trap for particular people
mircea_popescu: rather than a universal problem
asciilifeform: she demanded to be 'let alone with it' ☟︎
asciilifeform: and that was when we learned that there are those among us who... fail turing test.
mircea_popescu: nah, the two are not the same.
asciilifeform: well, inverse turing test.
mircea_popescu: understand something : if female brain were not hackable, if female vulva had no opening, there'd be no species.
jurov: wow that discussion... rather novel restatement of the question whether a soul exists
mircea_popescu: she hacks herself. of course she does. so what of it ?
asciilifeform: nitpick.
Adlai: !s 4781
assbot: 1 results for '4781' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781
mircea_popescu: jurov quite.
Adlai: anybody read this? ^^
asciilifeform: i not infrequently read esr
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im just saying, let's not confuse those who pass the fertility test with those who fail the turing test.
Adlai: (the book, not the review itself)
asciilifeform: (esr suffers from some of the same problems as taleb)
mircea_popescu: Adlai i linked it neh ?
Adlai: http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781 (because assbot apparently isn't self-aware yet)
assbot: 1 results for '4781' - #bitcoin-assets search
Adlai: er, shit. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#921595 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-11-2014 10:10:46; mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too.
asciilifeform: the book? can't say that i have
Adlai: or it could specialcase finding only a single result
asciilifeform: but from the article, it sounds deeply reminiscent of a similar turd, 'cyberselfish'
asciilifeform: ( http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1996/07/cyberselfish << briefly described here.)
assbot: Cyberselfish | Mother Jones
mircea_popescu: Our biggest concern is the welfare of children who appear on this site. {Site name redacted} has a ZERO tolerance policy for rape or
mircea_popescu: what the fuck reporting is this.
mircea_popescu: !up romkor_
mircea_popescu: Adlai ah, the book. no, never have.
Adlai: has anybody automated assbot auth?
mircea_popescu: you mean gribble ?
mircea_popescu: Adlai http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication#Helper_scripts like that ?
assbot: GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki
Adlai: amazingly nobody seems to use btc address auth. wtf?
Adlai: srsly bro
mircea_popescu: what's so amazing about this ?
mircea_popescu: badly thought out, pointless functionality doesn't get much use among the sane.
Adlai: it's not any better than gpg auth, but i don't see why it's any worse either
Adlai: although i guess it's less convenient to keep using in the face of existing automation of gpg auth
mircea_popescu: vulpes explains this if memory serves.
mircea_popescu: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/20_a-summary-of-changes-to-bitcoin-since-0321.html#fn.24 there.
assbot: A summary of changes to Bitcoin since 0.3.21
Adlai: thx, not much luck slogging through http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=from%3Aben_vulpes+auth*
assbot: 16 results for 'from:ben_vulpes auth*' - #bitcoin-assets search
asciilifeform: whether this particular microscope is fit for use as a hammer, depends on two very separate questions - what you think of ecdsa, and what you think of bitcoind
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not even getting into these technical discussion : getting people to use their credit cards as identification paperwork is a bad idea.
asciilifeform: one could in principle maintain a bitcoin 'keypair' for the purpose of abusing it for public key signatures
asciilifeform: but why?
mircea_popescu: the only proper way to use bitcoin addresses as identification correctly is to run a never-connected node that has no balance.
mircea_popescu: this is so braindamaged as to leave one breathless.
asciilifeform: well yes.
asciilifeform: but still why.
Adlai: frankly, my crypto knowledge is lacking to have anything meaningful to say on this issue, beyond "gpg keys can have an order of magnitude more entropy than bitcoin pubkey hashes"
asciilifeform: get a hammer, leave microscope alone.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you asking me why or the abuser why ?
asciilifeform: the abuser.
mircea_popescu: right.
Adlai: my reason/excuse has mainly been convenience, i had the btc auth set up years ago before i'd ever used gpg
mircea_popescu: convenience is the enemy, of course.
mircea_popescu: anwyay : you'll also notice we quite strictly use 4kb rsa sigs in our gpg
mircea_popescu: as pointedly opposed to using the ecdsa in bitcoin
mircea_popescu: now imagine what happens if either is breached somehow.
asciilifeform: 'Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing; 'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands; But he that filches from me my good name...'
mircea_popescu: quite.
Adlai: a stricter form of identity verification would require breaching *both*, rather than either, or only one
mircea_popescu: double the hassle of logging. tide's not really that high yet.
Adlai: ;;ident
gribble: Nick 'Adlai', with hostmask 'Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai', is identified as user 'Adlai', with GPG key id 4D88596A7CDA03F9, key fingerprint FCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9, and bitcoin address 13dkw1PtojBW74FN7ERbHqoEvgsTmtARuj
mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust Adlai
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user Adlai: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=Adlai | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Adlai | Rated since: Sat Oct 11 10:15:58 2014
Adlai: how charming, i'm only btc authed, but gribble presents it as though i'm gpg authed too
mircea_popescu: Adlai it just says "you're authed" and lists how that could be
Adlai: you may understand that, but it's not evident purely from response to ;;dient
mircea_popescu: anyway, seems you first logged last month, what do you mean "btc auth set up for years" ?
thestringpuller: "The cryptography is the strongest point. Your enemies will attack the weakest point, which is you."
mircea_popescu: well no meaningful content is directly obvious from the form of expression. you gotta know what the words sya.
Adlai: i've had btc auth set up for around two years
mircea_popescu: like how ?
Adlai: i only set up gpg auth a few weeks ago
Adlai: compare: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=adlai and http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xFCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9
assbot: #bitcoin-otc gpg key data
mircea_popescu: "Lest this all seem merely amusing, meditate on the fate of those who have tampered with words before. The behaviorists ruined words like "behavior", "response", and especially, "learning". They now pl-ay happily in a dream world, internally consistent but lost to science."
mircea_popescu: oh boy, quite.
Adlai: where are you going with that quote?
mircea_popescu: 2012-10-06 04:55:28 aha
Adlai: indeed :)
mircea_popescu: Adlai unrelated to our convo.
Adlai: oook
Adlai: perhaps better data, from your very own: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3B241BB6119757556F33339EFC6D3849C1ED1485C66C9D0D0A9506199D7402D0
assbot: Welcome | Phuctor
Adlai: oh, that submission date is today. nvm.
asciilifeform: lol wasn't meant to be used as an authoritative keyserver.
asciilifeform: (only updates when someone craps a key in)
Adlai: hah, i'd forgotten this already: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/29F24169A59A5BE1ACC8FCE0E852F4AE1C2A83C2F6B6902D6FA363BFC983ACBA
assbot: Welcome | Phuctor