tmsr - Log 2017-11-07

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shinohai: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/segwit2x/ <<< kek

mircea_popescu: shinohai that dun look too good.

mircea_popescu: when's teh stuff supposed to come online again ?

davout: ~nov. 16 iirc

shinohai: Yup

mircea_popescu: ah right.

mircea_popescu: well, 10 day futures at 10% is terrible in and of itself.

mircea_popescu: iirc the confederate republic scored this low after lee surrended and not at any point before

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/vedo-nudo/ << Trilema - Vedo nudo

davout: trade volume seems pretty low on all these ~100 btc/24h

davout: buttfinex also has such a market with roughly the same volume figures

davout: meanwhile: https://paritytech.io/blog/security-alert.html

davout: "This means that currently no funds can be moved out of the multi-sig wallets."

shinohai: BWAHAHAHAHA davout

davout: who knows, maybe that leads to an "Ethereum Classic 2"

davout: or maybe they'll grow used to having Ctrl+Z as a thing

shinohai: Shit has more rollbacks than Walmart as it is.

mircea_popescu: multi sig was such a brilliant itdea.

shinohai: Thanx Gavin!

davout: according to unverified hearsay it seems that ~1% of the total mEth supply got accidentally'd

mircea_popescu: just a flesh wound.

mircea_popescu: it's important to be creative in any case. they can produce more eth at any time, but the experience was valuable.

mircea_popescu: AND OTHER SUCH NONSENSE

shinohai: "How to fail and make people liek it - By Vitalik Butterin"

shinohai: You may remember Vitalik from other great books such as "How to run a quantum computing scam to raise capital for a crypto scam" and "Dress like a furfag and cook your own meth!"

mircea_popescu: heh. i think quantum computing was abandoned because it was discovered it leaked CFC gasses which are bad for the ozone layer

mircea_popescu: wait, wrong decade. it's not the 1990s anymore!

shinohai: Ozone hole is shrinking!

asciilifeform: in other lullies, bernstein exposes the item the original 'authors' sat on in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-17#1725945 >>> https://blog.cr.yp.to/20171105-infineon.html ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-10-17 05:59 jurov: "The flaw resides in the Infineon-developed RSA Library version v1.02.013, specifically within an algorithm it implements for RSA primes generation. "

asciilifeform: spoiler : infineon used http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-07#1722402 method. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-10-07 21:48 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-05#1721485 << alternatively, can *construct* numbers which don't have very small factors. pick a nonzero remainder mod 2, mod 3, ... mod largest-prime-fit-in-your-primorial and find what number of primorial is congruent to it using chinese remainder theorem ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: 'This could even be a deliberate weakness with plausible deniability: "Oh, sorry, nobody warned us that 2 mod 11 was okay and 10 mod 11 wasn't."'

mircea_popescu: heh

asciilifeform: i did say : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-08#1722426 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-10-08 00:16 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-07#1722402 << this is a fundamentally wrong way to generate cryptographic primes. we had a thread about it, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697562

asciilifeform: any method of 'constructing' primes , rather than hunting for wild, is guilty until proven innocent of 1) constriction 2) bias

asciilifeform: 'Further computations were consistent with the guess that p and q were being generated as powers of 65537 modulo L, where L was either the product of all primes through 691, or the product of all primes through 701.'

asciilifeform: https://blog.cr.yp.to/20171105-infineon3.txt << b's commented coad.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/#comment-123474 so there.

asciilifeform looks..

asciilifeform unsurprised, lol

asciilifeform: modular arithmetic .

asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu's original point was correct, you do NOT want a small d -- but neither you want a small e, or obviously n, or ANYTHING small

asciilifeform: no reason to. not on ffa, at any rate.

asciilifeform: for 4096b rsa, use 4096b randomprime e; 2048b randomprime p, q.

asciilifeform: ohai apeloyee

apeloyee: hello

apeloyee: I must say that I dont understand how "exponent 131074 reduces to exponent 2 somehow", and what CRT has to do with it ☟︎

apeloyee: (re ^^)

apeloyee: http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/#comment-123453

apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733338 << per bernstein, they didn't. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 14:34 asciilifeform: spoiler : infineon used http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-07#1722402 method.

asciilifeform: apeloyee: q was re the effect of composite exponent

apeloyee: I understood that much

apeloyee: but how

asciilifeform: apeloyee: did you read same bernstein as was linked ? pretty clearly pins 'constructed primes'

apeloyee: NO U

apeloyee: seriously.

asciilifeform: what am i missing

apeloyee: they calculated powers of 65537 modulo some primorial

asciilifeform: how is this not 'constructed prime' ?

apeloyee: it's not the same method as http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733339 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 14:34 a111: Logged on 2017-10-07 21:48 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-05#1721485 << alternatively, can *construct* numbers which don't have very small factors. pick a nonzero remainder mod 2, mod 3, ... mod largest-prime-fit-in-your-primorial and find what number of primorial is congruent to it using chinese remainder theorem

asciilifeform: it is not the same exact algo, no. but it is same from my pov, in that it is NOT the 'find b-bit random R and test for primality, potentially forever, until found prime'

apeloyee: the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733339 method, given uniformly distributed and independent remainders, generates uniformly distributed numbers modulo the primorial ☝︎

asciilifeform: 1 problem is that perfect uniform distrib and perfectly independent rng bits, cannot be shown to exist physically.

asciilifeform: the use of constructed primes, potentially amplifies small/temporary imperfections in the rng, into fatal

asciilifeform: the other problem is that prime constructor proof may or may not fit-in-head. infineon's method probably seemed correct to various folx.

apeloyee: perharps running rabin-miller "amplifies small/temporary imperfections in the rng, into fatal"

apeloyee: at that point might as well give up

asciilifeform: apeloyee: propose a hypothetical how ?

apeloyee: can't. I was sarcastic, because I don't see how CRT construction can amplify, assuming not obviously broken/backdoored RNG. why won't long-range correlations kill mthe "pick random prime" method as well?

asciilifeform: let's model the ideal prime-shitter. it would be an item that takes integer N , of whatever bitness, and produce the Nth prime ( or eggog if the Nth prime is bigger than the register bitness permitted. ) ☟︎☟︎☟︎

apeloyee: ok

asciilifeform: i.e. a 1:1 pipe from random ints to large primes.

asciilifeform: to have a satisfactory constructor, it would have to be shown to reduce to this and exactly this.

apeloyee: "pick random" is obviously not this

asciilifeform: in particular, gotta show that no two inputs will produce the same prime ☟︎

asciilifeform: pick-random satisfies above.

apeloyee: you don't believe in CRT?

asciilifeform: also gotta show that no prime exists , in the given bitness width, that CANNOT be chosen. ☟︎

asciilifeform: what means believe-in-crt ?

asciilifeform: i believe in the arithmetic, yes. but how to show that the two conditions i stated, hold ? ☟︎

asciilifeform: if apeloyee knows a proof for this, i'll read

asciilifeform: but as i currently understand, my q reduces to 'find The Formula For Primes' (tm)(r), a millenium-long headache for mathematical folx , to this day unsolved. ☟︎

apeloyee: plox to qualify. you want a method to generate Nth prime, but accept the "pick random number until prime" , despite in not being the Nth prime generator, but no other methods?

asciilifeform: i want a method, as stated above, where inputs map one-to-one and onto, the primes , up to the register width.

asciilifeform: the random-rubbish followed by probabilistic test , satisfies this demand within the obvious limits of the test.

asciilifeform: i can show that no 2 inputs will produce the same prime, trivially

asciilifeform: and since i built the rng, i can also be quite certain that there is not such a prime that it will forever avoid generating.

apeloyee: aha, so you're ok with the method produces junk, so long as the primes in range are equidistributed?

asciilifeform: how is it 'junk' ?

asciilifeform: equidistributed primes are what was asked for.

apeloyee: "pick random" will usually yield a composite, which must then be filtered out.

asciilifeform: this costs time, yes.

asciilifeform: folx who are in a hurry, can parallelize.

asciilifeform: ( it parallelizes infinitely )

apeloyee: how many bits/s does your generator yield?

asciilifeform: 7-8 kB/sec, depending on room temperature.

asciilifeform: per unit.

asciilifeform: ( many folx have half a dozen, or more )

apeloyee: kilobyte?

asciilifeform: aha

asciilifeform: theoretically one can connect an unlimited # of'em to pc (in practice linux kernel starts behaving oddly when more than 7 serial devices, i found )

asciilifeform: i am probably doomed to make a pci version, because of this, at some point. but so far not urgent itch.

asciilifeform: incidentally it can probably be shown that you don't have to throw out ALL of the bits in a candidate R, when it is not found to be prime, and still not leak anything

asciilifeform: but i have not yet tried this.

asciilifeform: ( the koch method, of taking R and adding 2 to it until m-r says yes, trivially leaks )

asciilifeform: what ought to do instead, is to rngize the bottom Q bits, where Q is log2(estimated prime gap at the current bitness, times severalfold engineering margin) ☟︎

asciilifeform: until passes.

asciilifeform: ( exercise for n00bz : show that there is ALWAYS a prime between n and 2n, for n > 1. )

asciilifeform: ( exercise #2 : show how many bits of input entropy are on avg. discarded by koch generator. )

asciilifeform: unrelatedly, scihub seems to finally have broken, i get 11 'captchas' in a row, gave up

asciilifeform: ( why is there EVER EVEN ONE ?! ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: imho this is an idiocy that perma-discredits everyone even tangentially involved. ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-30#1706321 << see also. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-30 15:53 asciilifeform: 13:08 < kanzure> she wants to control the access in her own way

apeloyee: so to recap, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-07#1722402 generates numbers in range [0, primorial-1]; it may yield a composite, but all outputs are equally likely, and all primes bigger than largest_prime_in_primorial and less than the primorial. Proof: since asciilifeform has admitted to believing in the statement of the Chinese Remainder Theorem (http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733392 ),... ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 16:39 asciilifeform: i believe in the arithmetic, yes. but how to show that the two conditions i stated, hold ?

apeloyee: ...then, by the CRT, there exists a bijection between all numbers in range [0, primorial-1] not divisible by any primes in the primorial, and the tuples of nonzero remainders from division by the primes. "numbers in range [0, primorial-1] not divisible by any primes in the primorial", obviously, includes all primes in said range (except those in the primorial). if the remainders mod 2, 3,...

apeloyee: ......p_n are independent and uniformly distributed, then the probability of tuple of these being chosen is the same (by definition of independence), and because CRT gives a bijection, all outputs are equally likely. did I repeat myself enough? ☟︎

apeloyee: re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733424 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 17:16 asciilifeform: imho this is an idiocy that perma-discredits everyone even tangentially involved.

asciilifeform: apeloyee: can i persuade you to pseudocodize ?

asciilifeform: would make eating, much easier.

apeloyee: !#s "errything for phree"

a111: 0 results for "\"errything for phree\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22errything%20for%20phree%22

apeloyee: you want sci-hub to wwork for phree? ☟︎

asciilifeform: how does it make bank from the captcha ?

asciilifeform: ( lemme guess, spammers pay to farm theirs ? )

apeloyee: how does it make bank from the captcha ? << it's just a proof of work. it's not unknown for sci-hub to ban etire countries also.

apeloyee: !#s "errythingforphree"

a111: 1 result for "\"errythingforphree\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22errythingforphree%22

asciilifeform: re crt, if apeloyee thinks he has found The Formula For Primes, he should not settle for small change, oughta publish...

apeloyee: I don't.

asciilifeform: maybe i'm thick : what's the difference ?

apeloyee: It's a method to generate a muber not divisible by small primes. Might be still divisible by large ones.

apeloyee: *number

asciilifeform: ahahahahahaha

asciilifeform: so what's the use of this then ?

asciilifeform: to set myself up to be nailed infineon-style ?!

asciilifeform: nothx

apeloyee: I still haven't heard how it will get you nailed.

asciilifeform: > Might be still divisible by large ones.

apeloyee: do miller-rabin on the results.

asciilifeform: it's a fat pile of complexity, for a measely, what, 90% optimization.

asciilifeform: i for one dun particularly care if keygenning takes a few hours.

apeloyee: quit flipping from one opinion to another every few days

asciilifeform: link to log or stfu

apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-05#1721484 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-10-05 19:38 asciilifeform: for the initial sieve ~prior~ to miller-rabin

apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-05#1721491 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-10-05 19:40 asciilifeform: trial division is dog slow vs gcd.

asciilifeform: i have nothing against ~simple and OBVIOUSLY correct~ optimizations, apeloyee ☟︎

asciilifeform: and i am willing to make an effort and stretch muscles to expand my definition of 'obviously correct', but to a point.

apeloyee: in fact, using evil, heretical software, calculated that this tries ~6.5 times less candidates for ~2048-bit primes compared to the pick-random-odd-number

asciilifeform: i can believe

apeloyee: well, is CRT nonwell, of cource I can't clain that CRT is obvious. But I think you're just allergic to it

apeloyee: *claim

asciilifeform: not the crt per se, but that apeloyee's algo doesn't leak-via-timing, or bias, or avoid some class of prime, is not (yet) obvious to asciilifeform .

asciilifeform: i'ma chew on it tho.

asciilifeform: and yes i am in fact allergic to any algo that i do not immediately understand, because entire objective of ffa is to be correct-via-obviousness.

asciilifeform: while at the same time usably fast. which is the engineering tension there.

apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-04#1733014 << this immediately smells like a magical voodoo invisibility potion ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-04 18:37 asciilifeform: for same reason you an' i, have 2 eyes

asciilifeform: apeloyee: how do you modulate-by-position if you don't have more than 1 position ?

asciilifeform: conjecture was, that you can transmit below noise floor, and still receive by demodulating strictly positionally.

asciilifeform: ( i have presently nfi if it is true )

apeloyee: but you claimed "just 2", and not 3, 4...

asciilifeform: it will work with >2, but afaik you only need 2.

apeloyee: i could understand if having 2,3, 4,... transmitters progressively lowering the detection chance

apeloyee: but "1 transmitter is visible, 2 are not" i find hard to believe

asciilifeform: 1 , transmitting below noise floor, is equally invisible, but also gives no way to receive...

asciilifeform: 2 is the bare minimum for a working ( again conjectured, whether it could work ) item.

asciilifeform: naturally 22 is better. and 222 moar so.

asciilifeform: 1 type of 'positionally modulated' radio, that is already very old tech, is satellite nav.

apeloyee: didn't you describe a scheme for 1 transmitter? in each time interval, pick many cryptographically pseudo-random orthogonal waveforms, calculate a weighted sum, transmit. the weights encode information. can split into many transmitters in various places.

asciilifeform: the difference is that the transmitters there physically move; but is immaterial for our purpose

asciilifeform: apeloyee: positional mod is superset of that item

apeloyee: no reason to only encode the signal in difference then.

asciilifeform: reason is so that each station can be physically indistinguishable, from outside the door, from, e.g., a defective lift motor that arcs a bit ☟︎

asciilifeform: or similar object.

asciilifeform: theoretically a positional modulator with a long enough span, could cover entire planet, with a few watt.

asciilifeform: ( and that few watt, spread over entire 30MHz of shortwave )

apeloyee: Do you have any data as to how distinguishable defective motors are? e.g. it's probably an impulse filtered with a min-phase filter. whereas fake motor probably won't be.

apeloyee: the transmitter disguised as motor

asciilifeform: what's to stop it from being exactly same spectrally as motor, if that's what i want ?

apeloyee: and phase?

asciilifeform: and phase

asciilifeform: so long as i can force the 2 ends of the line, to differ in such a way as to carry information

apeloyee: again, I have no data, but I suspect you won't be able to encode much data into it

asciilifeform: if any -- then objective met

asciilifeform: even if it's a bit per hour

asciilifeform: submariners reportedly live with a bit or so per sec.

apeloyee: simpler to just transmit 1W over 30MHz. Or 100mW. etc.

asciilifeform: then they find you.

apeloyee: and have your transmitter move, lest it be detected by correlation attacks.

asciilifeform: then i'ma transmit 100kW, why not

asciilifeform: but different problem !

apeloyee: shannon-hartley theorem. max bit per watt is when you sit far below noise floor

apeloyee: 100kW transmit only logarithmically more, but detection easiness in proportional to power

apeloyee: *is proportional

asciilifeform: i dun get how the 2 items can be separate

asciilifeform: if easier to detect for enemy, easier to detect for intended recipient. and vice-versa. neh ?

apeloyee: yep!

asciilifeform: re 30MHz, i could even be entirely wrong, and unusable , because e.g. <7 has vastly different propagation characteristics, day/night/winter/etc vs 7..15Mhz, and in turn from 15..30

apeloyee: don't pop up above noise floor, because bit-per-chance-of-detection drops off rapidly

apeloyee: hence no 100kW

apeloyee: and where you get 100kW on a moving object ☟︎

apeloyee: anyway

asciilifeform: from diesel, lol

asciilifeform: ( iirc mircea_popescu has a 800kW diesel ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: but my whole q was whether it is possible to do better than the 100yr state-of-the-art of 'keep moving yet transmitter and be prepared to lose it' thing

apeloyee: no magical invisibility potions.

apeloyee: can just decrease the chance of detection.

asciilifeform: nope, but purely physical invisibilities are a-ok. as radio per se is invisible to savages who never heard of radio.

apeloyee: to a reasonable value, but there's probably no escape from "keep moving" ☟︎

asciilifeform: naturally enemy who gets a hold of your receiver, or whatever secret param, can detect.

asciilifeform: q is whether is is possible to turn this param into the equiv of rsa key.

asciilifeform: without which -- no detection.

apeloyee: e.g.balloon tx'ing can masquerade as thunder

asciilifeform: not even from standing across the street.

apeloyee: becasue moves

asciilifeform: hypothetically. problem is to make a balloon stay up for any reasonable length of time, and not loudly show up on radars wherever it goes

apeloyee: if stands across the street, will detect. forget about it.

asciilifeform: mega-argument

apeloyee: srsly you're asking for invis potion.

asciilifeform: go and detect the static spark i just generated. from across the room, much less street.

apeloyee: you have managed thus to transmit how much?

apeloyee: in bits

asciilifeform: 1. if you knew exactly when and where to look.

asciilifeform: single-photon per bit has been demoed, in ideal conditions.

asciilifeform: at any rate, i'm not convinced that the problem is solvable, apeloyee may well be right. but i also remain unconvinced that it is unsolvable.

apeloyee: an' if you keep sparking next to detector across the street, you will Have Problems. because have to transmit enough to rsa.

asciilifeform: that there's the whole noise floor thing, neh.

apeloyee: you stipulated detector's across the street. can do direction finding.

asciilifeform: also i suspect that 'avoid gestapo' is a very small superset of the much harder 'physically undetectable'. for example, if you pirate on an already unusably-polluted band, you would probably never Have Problems for so long as you are not distinguishable from the usual polluters ( e.g. led light bulbs and other filth )

asciilifeform: *subset

asciilifeform: a block of flats, full of led bulbs, quite possible is the electrical equiv of a 10watt sw station

apeloyee: but also hard to hear you over all that noise. hence my "there's a fixed number of bits you can transmit before detection, assuming given ratio of intended recipient capabilities to enemy capabilities"

apeloyee: and assuming you stay put of course

apeloyee: so don't

apeloyee: move. preferably unpredictably.

apeloyee: (to the enemy)

asciilifeform: ideally said movement would consist of large number of geographically-dispersed stations, taking turns in a sequence not known to the enemy.

asciilifeform: this is where i started in the gedankenexperiment. from there went 'why not to have the sequence per se be the information carrier'.

apeloyee: if they're sleeper stations.

asciilifeform: well yes, in the sense that they spend the vast majority of time, silent ☟︎

asciilifeform: (receiving. and without leaking oscillator or whatever 20th century idiocy)

apeloyee: why not all of 'em, at 1/N power

asciilifeform: because then you're back to the 'if they're standing next to you, you're found' item.

apeloyee: the enemy doesn't realistically have resource to stand next to everyone. see bitcoin: can't make rewriting history impossible, lets make it unprofitable. ☟︎

asciilifeform: everyone - no. the few thou known-вредители -- totally

apeloyee: and to detect you, has to stand next ot you during transmission of significant number of bits

apeloyee: be a true вредитель and sabotage the spy device's uplink. they need a phat one.

asciilifeform: not clear that it does

asciilifeform: most of the processing is local

apeloyee: if the enemy is besieging you and watching you all the time, not much you can do

apeloyee: if you can't even plant a relay somewhere nearby

asciilifeform: if the enemy, on account of some internal psychosis, refrains from simply breaking in and shooting, there is plenty to do

asciilifeform: a serious sw relay is not physically small, cannot hide in a tree or similar.

apeloyee: serious is...?

asciilifeform: can be heard across atlantic.

asciilifeform: anything short of that, is a waste of time.

asciilifeform: i.e. 3-4 ionospheric reflections.

apeloyee: sieges are generally followed by an assault, unless th3e besieged surrender; to hope otherwise is simply suicide

asciilifeform: asciilifeform has nfi why he's been standing in line for years, to be gassed. evidently it is a scarce and rationed thing, like everything else in usa.

asciilifeform: and those who want to be gassed faster, gotta work harder, earn it..

asciilifeform: upstack : a 1w transmitter , under right conditions, can be heard across atlantic. tricky bit is how to extend this to belownoisefloor; and how to make in 'wrong' conditions.

apeloyee: most of the processing is local << if a known вредитель, that means siege. otherwise they need to exchange ~approx as much data as can be fit in spectrum. obv can't reuse the very same spectrum. hence lasers/sound/cables. can be sabotaged. them low noise receiver must cost quite some $$$.

asciilifeform: if apeloyee or whoever wants to get past the tank column, mine field, etc. and demolish the receiver -- i'll clap, what.

asciilifeform: but it is quite different problem from the original thread's.

asciilifeform: otoh if it is in the house next to mine, i have no way of knowing it

asciilifeform: what, gotta break into every single neighbour and see if they have one, lol

apeloyee: understand, they can't keep sieges on 10,000 вредителей. will go bankrupt.

asciilifeform: they're already bankrupt.

asciilifeform: yet folx keep showing up to work. ☟︎

asciilifeform: because per orlov 'collapse never happens for everyone, it only happens for a particular you, one at a time'

asciilifeform: existing gestapo aside, consider also future enemy. because even when the empires of today are forgotten, hogging sw spectrum will be a simple way to make new enemy.

asciilifeform: it's a limited resource and whatever crowned idiots sit on whatever thrones, will claim it

asciilifeform: incidentally the problem as originally stated, 'communicate across planet with a few watt, reliably, unjammably, and as close to undetectably as possible' was obsession of usg in 1940s-50s; and was declared 'solved enough' when satellite was built.

asciilifeform: asciilifeform's original q could be restated as 'how to achieve same thing as satellite, but without any'

apeloyee: an' they have 30000 SDRs to keep the siege? physical objects?

asciilifeform: it's what, 10bux.

asciilifeform: plus a good number are in orbit, so narrow down where to look quite effectively.

apeloyee: an' operators. robots not yet functional enough.

apeloyee: gotta emplace 'em

asciilifeform: the 'amateur radio' people stoolie for free.

asciilifeform: http://www.arrl.org/intruder-watch << e.g.

apeloyee: not next door.

asciilifeform: quite likely next door.

apeloyee: and you'll know about 'em. antennas.

asciilifeform: what, i gotta kill every old d00d with a discone on his roof now ?

asciilifeform: what if in his attic ?

asciilifeform: it works just as well in attic.

apeloyee: remember, 1 antenna not enough.

asciilifeform: so one on each house on each side.

asciilifeform: why not.

asciilifeform: quite likely 1 on 3 sides, each a few km from house, suffices.

apeloyee: gotta exchange among them all traffic.

apeloyee: or they must send strgraight to enemy

apeloyee: via a phat pipe.

asciilifeform: i dun see why this is necessary

asciilifeform: what happens is that 5-6 pensioners notice 'noise' and get in their trucks and df for usg for free, for a month, if it takes a month

apeloyee: hogging sw spectrum will be a simple way to make new enemy. << can reach a mutially beneficial agreement. the more transmitters, the more channel capacity, until the distortion is above noise.

asciilifeform: now this theoretically tru

asciilifeform: and i've proposed it here -- relays passing rsa-signed packets on.

apeloyee: df for usg for free << correlation attacks work but are neither easy nor cheap. if they only exchange 10% of the traffic, will take 10x as long to find you, unless they know the key

asciilifeform: was still speaking of the scenario with 1 station

asciilifeform: ( currently there are 0. )

apeloyee: and? understand I claimed that it's possible to find you, not that it's easy or cheap

asciilifeform: personally i'd be satisfied with a 'it costs all the king's horses and all the king's men' item.

apeloyee: yes, involves capturing and comparing traffic from multiple points, because each individual bit gives very little confidence

apeloyee: if you miss some time period, got to capture moar.

asciilifeform: could restate problem as 'maximize # of bits that can be sent before you gotta move'

apeloyee: transmit slowly enough. enemy's cost to proportional to time

asciilifeform: can also restate as 'how slowly'

apeloyee: this, yes.

apeloyee: 'maximize # of bits that can be sent before you gotta move' << this mostly involves choice of locality. "check if the map matches the locality. If it doesn't - change the locality."(R)(C)

asciilifeform: lol

asciilifeform: observe, the problem dun exist if you already have your own pyongyang and can happily put a megawatt station there and invite whoever objects, to pound sand up his arse ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: q is, wat do for people who dun have a pyongyang.

asciilifeform: e.g. ru horizon radar , eats what, half a MHz of sw, and betcha they have a massive garbage bin to put the complaints from 50 years into.

asciilifeform: orig thread is most properly concerning small radios, deep in enemy territory.

asciilifeform: the empires solved this with satellite.

asciilifeform: ( which will last maybe 40 min. when actual war, but nobody seems to give a shit. ) ☟︎

apeloyee: more crackpot ideas: live in flyshitville, can then have ample warning about enemy detection equipment, and plenty of RF emission by and neighbors' equipment to hide behind ( but few neighbors, important for SNR)

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu iirc actually does this.

asciilifeform: whole mountain.

asciilifeform: with multi-km of jungle around.

asciilifeform: it has up side, and down ( e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-30#1706555 ) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-08-30 20:08 mircea_popescu: and the shower has a pair of buttons : if you increase the hot water debit, this drops pressure for the hot pump, which kicks in, dropping pressure for the main pump, which kicks in. and vice-versa.

asciilifeform: a budget-model pyongyang, could say. ☟︎

apeloyee: more: set up a site, bemoaning "radio intruders" on $band, stream from several nearby radios on it. the recipient can then improve SNR by subtracting whatever interference (from your POV), or estimate atmospheric conditions

apeloyee: re above, at least have a hidden relay in Flyshit Forest

apeloyee: better several

asciilifeform: with very very long mains cable, lol

apeloyee: if 1W is enough...

asciilifeform: 1w on empty band, with just-so sunspot cycle, etc. was on at least 1 occasion picked up across atlantic.

asciilifeform: this is separate item from 'can do on demand' tho.

apeloyee: see above re execrable efficiency of classic modes.

asciilifeform: year-round, day/night on crowded band prolly wants multi-kw.

asciilifeform: but yes.

asciilifeform: also must note that if the relay is controlled via radio, you've re-created orig problem in miniature.

apeloyee: if you needed 1W before, add a relay half-way, need 0.25W for you and relay nao. generally private relay should be a lot closer to sender. needless to say relay must re-modulate.

apeloyee: and preferably store-and-forward at opportune atmospheric conditions.

asciilifeform: sorta how i got to the positional modulator thing -- can you take advantage of the fact of having 2+ dispersed stations.

asciilifeform: for the tx process per se.

asciilifeform: as for atmospheric conditions, station has no way of knowing them ☟︎

asciilifeform: it can only send (or not), is all it can do

asciilifeform: ( the british-style 'can i hear bbc?' nonsense, i will dismiss out of hand, no externals plox )

apeloyee: can add a phase offset so that they are in-phase at receiver. N stations, more than N times SNR increase, but opens to attacks based on partial knowledge

apeloyee: no externals plox << opportunistic use is a thing

asciilifeform: it's a thing until it isn't

asciilifeform: otherwise i'd have started the thread with unsecured satellite relays ( which do currently exist )

asciilifeform: or, more elementarily, 'wardriving' ( 802.11 crypto was broken to death quite recently, note )

asciilifeform: but these rely on existing infrastructure, like flea relies on dog. asciilifeform's q was specifically re self-contained structure.

apeloyee: consider that the enemy will certainly take advantage of your willful ignorance of atmospheric conditions (as known from bbc,etc), as you will up the power

asciilifeform: just as he will take advantage of having airplane, and satellite, and armies, etc.

asciilifeform: q is what is the best that can be done with simply a radio.

asciilifeform: once hypothetical net has multiple stations on various continents, it will have its own idea of atmospheric conditions. but not before.

asciilifeform: before that it only has what crumbs enemy throws from the table.

asciilifeform: ( i wouldn't put it past'em to 'technical glitch' and turn off bbc for a few min. to get you to up your wattage, say ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: see, for instance, the ancient thread where we anathemized ntp.

BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all

jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7040.87, vol: 13438.87141142 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7027.7, vol: 41358.63189668 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7049.0, vol: 3292.73922678 | Volume-weighted last average: 7031.95416165

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( i wouldn't put it past'em to 'technical glitch' and turn off bbc for a few min. to get you to up your wattage, say ) << They do it to comcast

asciilifeform: moar famously, to nasdaq

BingoBoingo: Also

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-04#1678932 << ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-07-04 03:09 asciilifeform: in other unsurprises, 'Corrupt data that accidentally flowed out of a NASDAQ systems test caused the share prices...'

asciilifeform: and prior.

BingoBoingo: For a while big mediterranean cables were snipped similarly to likely same effect

asciilifeform: it's a regular thing.

asciilifeform: but there are still occasional folx who seem to think 'But They Wouldn't...'

asciilifeform: they would.

asciilifeform: we're speaking of the same empire who did live-fire biowar tests on own population, in the subways, 1950s

asciilifeform: and other joys.

asciilifeform: not only is 'turn off bbc/nasdaq/ntp to Help Nail A Terrorist' an unremarkable proposition in comparison, but prolly has existing, fully-robotic infrastructure ready to roll.

asciilifeform: !#s kill switch

a111: 18 results for "kill switch", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=kill%20switch

asciilifeform: hm, nothing pertinent in there. odd.

asciilifeform: they're happy to fly boeings into sea / towers / etc. remotely. nobody will even fart at ntp/bbc/etc.

asciilifeform: meanwhile, in the pleasures of overflowsandpointerslang , https://github.com/google/syzkaller/blob/master/docs/linux/found_bugs_usb.md

asciilifeform: https://archive.is/zt3pD << commentary.

BingoBoingo: Oh my

shinohai: https://www.antena3.ro/actualitate/social/o-organizatie-anarhista-prezenta-la-protestele-de-duminica-441087.html <<< Is my Romanian really that terrible, or are they calling a meme an "anarchist organization" ? ☟︎

asciilifeform: i dun reddit, so cannot say, meme or organization etc

shinohai: Nah, kekistan is a 4chan meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/kekistan

asciilifeform: 'That day, Polygon[13] and Kotaku[12] published articles calling the Kekistan flag an “alt-right” and “white nationalist” symbol' << lol

asciilifeform: meanwhile in world of orlols, http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-october-revolution-and-you.html

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733356 << for completeness i originally read "largest prime factor", and intuitively thought i see the proof, but meanwhile that also collapsed. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 16:21 apeloyee: I must say that I dont understand how "exponent 131074 reduces to exponent 2 somehow", and what CRT has to do with it

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733394 << finite formula. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 16:41 asciilifeform: but as i currently understand, my q reduces to 'find The Formula For Primes' (tm)(r), a millenium-long headache for mathematical folx , to this day unsolved.

asciilifeform: i.e. generator of nth prime in O(1) time. nobody's got one and i don't expect anyone will.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733418 << no, actually : should generate new prime by adding a byte to the extant number that failed on a PROBABILITY based index. ie, adding to offset 0 much less probable than adding to offset 4090 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 17:03 asciilifeform: what ought to do instead, is to rngize the bottom Q bits, where Q is log2(estimated prime gap at the current bitness, times severalfold engineering margin)

mircea_popescu: in general so after 16773120 bits were produced by FG, 4096 were added to last bit and 1 to first. pyramidfixer.

asciilifeform: afaik all of the bits are equally likely to 'need flipping'

asciilifeform: but i have no proof of this yet.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so, because the gap's a cone not a rectangle

asciilifeform: i'ma have to chew on this.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733423 << because you keep clicking on them. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 17:14 asciilifeform: ( why is there EVER EVEN ONE ?! )

asciilifeform: i load 1-2 / week, lol

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733431 <<< bwahaha ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 17:27 apeloyee: ......p_n are independent and uniformly distributed, then the probability of tuple of these being chosen is the same (by definition of independence), and because CRT gives a bijection, all outputs are equally likely. did I repeat myself enough?

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733438 << let them learn how to fucking use technological civilisation, get a deedbot account and fucking charge like sane people. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 17:29 apeloyee: you want sci-hub to wwork for phree?

mircea_popescu: or whatever, if they don't feel like it, like eg ben_vulpes doesn't for his paste service, let them not to

mircea_popescu: but otherwhise there's no excuse available to the chuchka that "washing is too hard and besides rubbing against a tree trunk is a close approximation"

asciilifeform: the scihub thing isn't even sure what it wants to be , 13337 w4r3z, or 'service'

asciilifeform: this is the fate of all 'we don't have an ideology' derps ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: bobbing about like shit in icehole.

mircea_popescu: it wants to be whatever usg's silicon valley politruks appear to be willing to put stalin's notes behind that season.

mircea_popescu: "pivot" being the anglo word for this.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733464 << i still don't follow how you figure the approach elides some primes. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 17:39 asciilifeform: i have nothing against ~simple and OBVIOUSLY correct~ optimizations, apeloyee

asciilifeform: it is more that i cannot prove to my satisfaction that it does not skew the distribution .

asciilifeform: nor give some segments of the input bitstring more influence over the output than others.

asciilifeform: nor emit information re the input or output via timing sidechannel.

mircea_popescu: i suppose at this juncture a moderately interesting item would be to run some for loops and see.

asciilifeform: see what ?

mircea_popescu: numeric methods to the rescue. wtf are computers even for amirite.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how the histogram of the result looks.

asciilifeform: effect too small to ever observe experimentally, can still kill you if enemy finds it.

asciilifeform: which is why cryptography is NOT an experimental science.

mircea_popescu: but effect large enough to observe experimentally was observed experimentally.

asciilifeform: has no bearing on the ones that are not.

mircea_popescu: hence "moderately interesting".

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're not proving it safe, you're examining if you can prove it unsafe.

asciilifeform: possibly interesting, could reveal that 'obvious problem is obvious' but not beyond.

asciilifeform: aha.

mircea_popescu: more than nothing. for all the idle cycles being burned erryday...

asciilifeform: 'testing reveals only presence of bugs, never absence' etc.

mircea_popescu: tbh, by comparison with the volume of spurious strings pasted into shitsites, the amount of idle for loops executed to date seems dismall. less reddit more foring.

asciilifeform: lol but the empty loops in microshit!1111

asciilifeform: y'know, the ones they occasionally remove, to make fast!11

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733491 << for the record, these were a lot more common in soviet union than in present days. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 18:48 asciilifeform: reason is so that each station can be physically indistinguishable, from outside the door, from, e.g., a defective lift motor that arcs a bit

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they've been displaced by 'modern' crapola, e.g. led light bulbs, 'power line ethernet', etc

mircea_popescu: what IS however overwhelmingly present in su of today is the howl of the newstyle ligthtbulb balancing circuits.

mircea_popescu: right.

mircea_popescu: the lights especially.

asciilifeform: they nuke sw reception ~entirely

asciilifeform: for km+.

asciilifeform: ( at least in the classical 'i want my orders from moscow' type of sw )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733519 << my car actually has 160kW powerplant installed. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 19:00 apeloyee: and where you get 100kW on a moving object

asciilifeform: lol even mine

mircea_popescu: ikr

asciilifeform: ( tricky to get that 160 out as dc current tho )

mircea_popescu: btw, why the fuck don't there exist wheel-dynamos ?

asciilifeform: my alternator's good for 3-4kW

mircea_popescu: i want an unit which lifts up the bridge, plugs into the car as if it were a wheel, and then simply converts.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they do, asciilifeform's father designed one when he was my current age

asciilifeform: test stand machine

asciilifeform: sorta like gigantic treadmill.

mircea_popescu: yes but i mean, on sale as a product.

asciilifeform: it is probably buyable actually

mircea_popescu: park your car, put out 50kW or w/e the conversion yielkds.

mircea_popescu: i never saw one

asciilifeform: or rather, a modern non-orc incarnation

asciilifeform: inquire at 'pollution test' equip vendors

mircea_popescu: that thing is like 1.5mn and the size of a room

asciilifeform: that's how big it'd be

mircea_popescu: i don't want that crap. i want a unit the size of washing machine.

mircea_popescu: compact, and ready to go in back of truck

asciilifeform: the gearbox is massive loss

mircea_popescu: not that massive.

mircea_popescu: at least on good quality german makes, it's not. i dunno about toyota nissan

asciilifeform: quite massive from pov of 'i want to make my auto into dynamo'

mircea_popescu: that's not what i want. i want a washingmachine dynamo i can put in the back of the truck and take to middle of nowhere for tailgate party with megawatt power available.

asciilifeform: prolly easier to perma-mod the truck. see what the cement mixer people do.

asciilifeform: ( takeoff on rear differential, iirc )

mircea_popescu: how would the perma-modded truck fucking drive to there ?

mircea_popescu: no, no. convertible.

asciilifeform: well yes convertible, there's a clutch

mircea_popescu: i guess. but welding the washing machine into the truck bed seems meh.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo may have the exact recipe, this is a thing welders, cement people, etc. actually do.

mircea_popescu: ya but partyers are apparently idiots.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu often throws >3kW party ?

mircea_popescu: carry little piddly engine when has proper engine under hood.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes.

mircea_popescu: for one thing, inductive load is generally 3x the rated draw. 3kw is not a fucking ac unit for instance.

asciilifeform: tru!

mircea_popescu: and most of the weight of the 30kg generator that needs a fuckming crane to move comfortably is the fucking engine, which guess what, i already have. ☟︎

asciilifeform: the 'hybrid' crackpot autos, incidentally, have proper gen

mircea_popescu: and much better than any fucking converted lawnmower they sell as generator, for that matter.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i tried like 5 diff ones, they're all shit.

asciilifeform: oh hm really ? the 'prius' etc

asciilifeform not tried

mircea_popescu: basically a slightly overgrown common alternator, like fit for a truck, but put on car and hurr durr we have hybrids

mircea_popescu: no you don't, you have a truck alternator on a shitty nissan.

asciilifeform: the disgraceful thing is that they still have gearboxes

asciilifeform: ( vs motor-per-wheel )

asciilifeform: actual hybrid (e.g. sov mining trucks) had motor-in-wheel.

ben_vulpes: take out that drivetrain and they'll blow over in the wind

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this is tru of all plasticars

asciilifeform: incl the porches etc

mircea_popescu: ^

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes gets it. the have the zamak because cheapest answer to dynamic problems.

mircea_popescu: and motor per wheel works on you know, 50ton tatra mining truck.

ben_vulpes: plus gotta reengineer differentials in software if yr going motor per wheel

ben_vulpes: not intractable, just more complicated than bolting a muxer to the driveshaft.

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it is why it wasn't done. they literally cannot afford even one simple piece of correct soft.

ben_vulpes still a fan of the wrightspeed/volt model of onboard generation and electric drivetrain

ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yeah obcs

ben_vulpes: obvs*

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aka sov mining truck. and it works.

asciilifeform: and the motors scale down. but needs correct soft.

ben_vulpes: and how; wrightspeed has mega boner-inducing turbine generator

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> the gearbox is massive loss Internal friction in motor pistons ~50% loss, so what?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dynamometer. e.g. http://www.dynojet.com/products/dynamometers/Automotive-dynamometers.aspx

asciilifeform: ( not all room-sized and stationary. can get on truck bed. )

asciilifeform: terrible imho way to generate current. but would work.

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo may have the exact recipe, this is a thing welders, cement people, etc. actually do. << Called a "power take off" Standard issue on tractors. Special order on trucks.

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( vs motor-per-wheel ) << requires more software for traction control when you have all of the torque starting from 0

asciilifeform: lolwat

asciilifeform: you get as much or little torque as you want, motors take pwm

ben_vulpes: more perfectly correct software to write.

mircea_popescu: hanbot http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/04wcZ/?raw=true

ben_vulpes: noob will hammer throttle, wheels will lose traction ~instantly

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it isn't so difficult for ignoramus to wreck an ordinary auto, either

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that pos goes over the wheel, bs. i want to bolt it on instead of the wheel!

asciilifeform: ideally you'd have the rotor attached to the drive shaft; by default stator is disconnected. when you want to turn the auto into generator, you put the thing in neutral, undo the clutch, and put on gas (ideally has 'cruise control' throttle)

asciilifeform: so no manipulations with wheels.

asciilifeform: this would be a spiffy thing, welders et al would buy.

mircea_popescu: i guess. though im not sure i want to perma-carry the generator coils.

asciilifeform: not so heavy.

asciilifeform: but theoretically even this, could be made detachable.

mircea_popescu: i'd like a car like that, insteadof the "planet saving" bullshit.

asciilifeform: metoo

asciilifeform: would go handily with the 13337 pirate sw set.

mircea_popescu: or with everything else.

mircea_popescu: charge tesla by running mercedes so the hipsters can hipster

asciilifeform: other thing re 'hybrids' that asciilifeform never understood, is why to have a rotary engine at all !

asciilifeform: can just as easily have linear coils on pistons

mircea_popescu: have 20 meter high inflatable jumpything in middle of nowhere

mircea_popescu: etc

asciilifeform: why suffer the loss on the crankshaft.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they had one of those at 'banat fair' thing ! ( though it was plugged into mains )

mircea_popescu: myeah.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733522 << had, in ag. and yes it was readily roadable, took basically a semi tractor head to move. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 19:00 asciilifeform: ( iirc mircea_popescu has a 800kW diesel )

asciilifeform: they come in standard railroad size too

asciilifeform: ( afaik same item, just diff carriages )

mircea_popescu: exactly, goes in rr box

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733527 << very this much. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 19:02 apeloyee: to a reasonable value, but there's probably no escape from "keep moving"

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733558 << this is a maintenance nightmare. the fundamental reason girls get married off is that it's much more efficient to maintain a station that works rather than to maintain a station that doesn't work. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 19:15 asciilifeform: well yes, in the sense that they spend the vast majority of time, silent

asciilifeform: wasn't meant to be 'kept in attics gathering dust', but simply low duty cycle - as in, e.g., 1ms per hour

asciilifeform: and different msec for each unit.

asciilifeform: triangulation nightmare.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733562 << this is a doubtful proposition, as the enemy is basically "idiots", and much like nature having much more energy to burn than you do, idiots are much more affixed to their idiotarian ideology than you will ever be to yours. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 19:17 apeloyee: the enemy doesn't realistically have resource to stand next to everyone. see bitcoin: can't make rewriting history impossible, lets make it unprofitable.

mircea_popescu: they -- for lack of alternative.

asciilifeform: aha, i can easily see usg df iron being mandated in cabletv boxes or similar.

asciilifeform: 'help us nail Terrorists'

mircea_popescu: or even silently.

asciilifeform: well naturally silently

mircea_popescu: "this is the new consensus-community developed standard"

asciilifeform: how often do they mandate something loudly and with fanfare.

asciilifeform: fwiw there is already a wifi set in ~every isp-issued kit in usa. which is basically a sdr

asciilifeform: good many cellphones ship with 'digital tv' chipset which is exactly sdr

asciilifeform: ( the 'rtl' dongle sdr aficionados ~all use, started life as 'tv' )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733587 << this is a funny application of the 7 wonders of socialism. dja know that bit ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 19:36 asciilifeform: yet folx keep showing up to work.

asciilifeform: 'we pretend to work, they pretend to pay us' ?

mircea_popescu: ledmme fish it out.

asciilifeform brb

mircea_popescu: 1. full employment ; 2. notwitstanding full employment, no work being done ever observed ; 3. notwithstanding no work being done ever observed, all plans realised > 100% ; 4. notwithstanding all plans always overfulfilled, no useful products ever on the open market ; 5. notwithstanding no products ever on open market, everyone well supplied ; 6. notwithstanding everyone well supplied, everyone always stealing ; 7. notwithstan

mircea_popescu: ding everyone always stealing, nothing ever went missing.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733636 << there's exactly zero incentive to plan for actual war for the obvious reason : 0 survival rate of current socialisms in case of war. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 20:05 asciilifeform: ( which will last maybe 40 min. when actual war, but nobody seems to give a shit. )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733643 << almost! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-07 20:09 asciilifeform: a budget-model pyongyang, could say.