asciilifeform: in other lulz, asciilifeform buys a chinesium hf-to-120mhz upconverter thing for rtlsdr , and discovers that he has to take the thing apart and trace pcb traces, and crosscheck with chipset data sheet, to learn which hose is 'in' and which is 'out' ! they did not bother to label ! ( not even in chinese . )
BingoBoingo: lol
doppler: wow, nice going guys
BingoBoingo: doppler: On what?
doppler: on designing that PCB
BingoBoingo: !!up hubud
deedbot: hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: From the fake oped mines: "Hey, Tech Companies: Knock It Off With the Apps That Let People Change Their Skin Color"
doppler: asciilifeform: it was an ebay find, right?
mircea_popescu: doppler what are you on about ?
mircea_popescu: be specific.
doppler: what's confusing? ascii is talking about an upconverter he bought.
mircea_popescu: ah.
doppler: I wasn't saying nice going to you guys :)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is one guy as far as anyone knows.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have utterly no patience to listen to this kalman thing. i made it 13 minutes, but a) terrible snr and b) his voice is insufferable.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: transracialism is a thing!
BingoBoingo: In further developments, little miss trainwreck has just had a tire swapped on her motor carriage for the 7th time in 2 weeks
mircea_popescu: who ?
ben_vulpes: is she buying really really really used tires? spares only?
mircea_popescu: is this code for "bb got laid"
ben_vulpes: bb has a mentee i think?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Girl I've been driving around as favor for her sponsor.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "sponsor" is how you say "dude paying for the rent" in slang of romanian student/whore (pitipoanca).
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> is she buying really really really used tires? spares only? << Today she figured out rim was cracked and that's why hey were going flat.
ben_vulpes: quit drivin on the sidewalls girl
BingoBoingo: Lol, her sponsor is a a lady who is trying to guide miss trainwreck through 12 steps and figured "Hey, she needs to learn how to make friends. BingoBoingo, here's a chance to practice some patience and let her try to be your friend"
mircea_popescu: from experience women that failed to make friends by the age of about 13 or so will never manage.
BingoBoingo: Well, mentally when you account for the years lost to dopeism
mircea_popescu: i guess there's that.
BingoBoingo does not plan to take little miss trainwreck to Montevideo
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at some point i'ma 'fan-sub' the thing (unless somebody else gets to it 1st)
asciilifeform: doppler yes it's an ebayism howdja guess
asciilifeform: cheap, angry
doppler: always fun
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> is this code for "bb got laid" << Nah, she's a white girl. Practically has a Cherenkov glow of warning signs, but is making an effort to stay sober. Is however a source of entertainment watching the petite weapon of mass destruction operate. Much as the BingoBoingo is a valuable customer service lab, driving this kitten around is valuable wmd development lab.
BingoBoingo: And she pays cash for chauffer service
asciilifeform: ftr $item dunwork.
asciilifeform: f--- would not chinesiate again
BingoBoingo: That corresponds to my experience negotiating with the (Cantonese speaking) chinese
BingoBoingo: !~later tell danielpbarron http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/UpHBe/?raw=true
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
phf: hehe, somehow i read every single thing that BingoBoingo wrote about the girl as some form of double entedre
phf: the explanations only make it worse
BingoBoingo: Triple even
BingoBoingo: I am learning so much from her talking about her shopping process for next motor carriage
BingoBoingo: brb, sobertime
phf: it might be a sign of old age, that you attract those tiny kittens, and while they talk you're like "jesus fucking christ you're so dumb", but then you tell them to do a little trick and they do it almost correctly, and you're like "oh hey you're educable, neat, what else can you do"
asciilifeform: oh did i mention, the balun crumbled in my hands ?
mod6: phf: hehe
asciilifeform: oh and did i mention, it was a ~security camera~ balun ?!
mircea_popescu: the double entendre is now a triple entente.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perhaps you don't know your own strengths.
asciilifeform: and it isn't as if there is nonchinese equipment for sale somewhere. unless you count the for-usg 'weight in gold' nonsense
asciilifeform: lel
asciilifeform: ( how many burn with desire to pay 5k usd for receiver )
davout: in other lulz goldmines https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7cvzu6/now_that_the_debate_is_over_lets_finally_make/
asciilifeform: davout: it is not clear from link, are they begging for donation in proper btc, or shitcoinz
davout: latter
davout: but i'm sure they'd accept the former, to "raise awareness"
davout: the thing that amuses me, is that they seem to be rehashing exactly the same nonsense as proper bitcoin reddit was doing 3 or 4 years ago
asciilifeform: ymean prb reddit ?
davout: exact same nonsense, "raise funds for marketing campaigns", "ask merchants to accept it", "tipping bots", literally the exact same things
davout: asciilifeform: yes
asciilifeform: lol tipping
mircea_popescu: idiots making progress forward can only be possibly used for oven stoking.
asciilifeform: and how come nobody 'ask merchants to accept' gold
mircea_popescu: "years of infighting" ? what, over this week-old fart ?
mircea_popescu: davout they're ~same people.
mircea_popescu: the problem with "tide lifts all boats" is that where boat is comes as function of boat not function of "tides".
davout: "Let's as X to accept buttcash donations"
mircea_popescu: subsistence african farmer is not subsistence african farmer "for lack of opportunities", but for subsistence farmer substance. whether in detroit or durban
asciilifeform: african farmer is three steps ahead of redditus
mircea_popescu: depends from where you count.
asciilifeform: farmer at least has a notion of causality, say
asciilifeform: and of finite resource
mircea_popescu: absolutely not.
mircea_popescu: they both have the ~exact same notion. "follow group and moo."
asciilifeform: redditus neither sows nor reaps
mircea_popescu: they both sow and reap in the same way the same things : incomprehensible seeds on uncomprehended space.
mircea_popescu: dja understand, asciilifeform, what my bizarre address MEANS ? to you, it's just a curio. you readily fail to realise that the CAUSE of that is that local simply has no notion of cartesian space.
mircea_popescu: you think, "how could mind exist, that fails to understand every plane has underneath system of coordinates".
mircea_popescu: it can. hence, for instance, no roads here cross. they loop. dja even grok on your own what i fucking mean by this ?
mircea_popescu: cuz it's a stretch of the imagination in a way not commonly required to stretch.
asciilifeform: i've not worked as a caretaker of the profoundly retarded, neh, so can't say i experienced directly
mircea_popescu: you may, on a novel road, wonder if it's a dead end. i don't wonder that. i know it's a dead end. because no CONCEPTION of grid, see. it's not that they failed to implement it. it's that they don't realise such exists.
mircea_popescu: nothing is ever signalled ; not even one way streets. because the local never ventures outside of spaces it knows, so doesn't need signals. why not ventures ?
mircea_popescu: and so on following until you fall over.
asciilifeform: grid requires some notion of future, vs extending like tree roots
mircea_popescu: it's what i mean by "uncomprehended space".
mircea_popescu: shall we now do the incomprehensible seed ? all the way to the witch doctors, just as good as medicine ?
asciilifeform: farmer gotta conceptualize at least seasons tho, neh
mircea_popescu: neh.
mircea_popescu: farmer, like the sheep that he IS, merely follows the herd, and dies with it.
mircea_popescu: that's the great "progress" of agriculture : the shepherd's sheep were replaced by bypedal farmers.
mircea_popescu: just as sheep as the sheep.
mircea_popescu: has "a conception" of seasons. a sheep's notion of the world surroundant.
mircea_popescu: wtf does he need the difference between surround-ing and surround-ant ? mordant is not a word, is it ?
mircea_popescu: aaanyway. let's move to a diff topic lest i thoroughly depress myself.
asciilifeform: i now recall some anthropologist who had problems giving fiction, incl simple hypotheticals, to some african sad sacks
asciilifeform: who , yes, had no coprocessor for it...
asciilifeform: depressing.
asciilifeform: oh did i mention that the antenna per se, turned out to be... old lamp cord
asciilifeform: the only further insult i can think of, is if it somehow were to set the rubbish bin where i threw it, on fire
mircea_popescu: should have prolly dissected it on blog.
asciilifeform: ars longa...
asciilifeform: gotta wonder, how many other 'hey it's soo cheap and available!' technomarvels, on examination would turn up to be exactly same as this
mircea_popescu: aren't we like 100% to date ?
mircea_popescu: what technomarvel worked once sat upon ?
asciilifeform: sorta like asciilifeform's discovery few yrs ago, where turned out that e.g. lathe was considerably easier to get in '50s than today, but 'hey , hurr , 3d printers!!' etc
asciilifeform: lolyea nearly 100
asciilifeform: 'here have iron that dun heat' 'have a radio that picks up only own tuner oscillator' bbut at leadt Cheap!!
asciilifeform: *least
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu had article where 'they're ceremonial objects, actual functionality in'em is like legs on snake' or similar
mircea_popescu: i'm sure.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/items/ << Trilema - Items
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> quit drivin on the sidewalls girl << lel
mod6: ooh laboratorio & hacker-space
mircea_popescu: realidad virtual!
mod6: my first time in .mx many many years ago, i was like "Bimbo Bread? wtf, don't they know..."
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737763 fascinating read btw.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 15:58 mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/ is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet)
wer: hello
phf: !#seenbefore wer
phf: heh
wer: how do i view my id on wot
mod6: hi, are you looking @ wot.deedbot.org ?
wer: i'm not sure
wer: how do i identify myself?
mod6: http://www.deedbot.org/help.html
mod6: it seems like you already did an "!!up" to deedbot.
wer: yes i did
wer: there's this message "This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>."
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> the double entendre is now a triple entente. << You probably wouldn't be interested in Miss trainwreck because height is in the range that is short for you and ergonomic for me
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i've not worked as a caretaker of the profoundly retarded, neh, so can't say i experienced directly << Do you want to come visit before we depart for our seperate ventures? I can make introductions. Maybe even get you some shifts at the BingoBoingo store.
mod6: wer: did you register your nick with nickserv?
wer: i'm not entirely sure
wer: i logged on here 2 or 3 days ago
mod6: Registered : Dec 31 06:23:43 2009 (7y 45w 5d ago)
mod6: not too much younger than mine even
mod6: so when you connect to irc do you do the typical 'identify' command with nickserv ?
wer: i don't
wer: perhaps another user from before used the same nickname too
mod6: yeeep
mod6: and if that person grabs it back with 'ghost' or whatever, then you're sol.
wer: damn
mod6: are you sure it wasn't you that set it up so long ago?
wer: very
mod6: ah, ok. well... im not sure what the protocol is then for changing your nick in deedbot, but I'm sure trinque needs to assist you with that/
mod6: s/\///
wer: ah thanks anyway
trinque: isn't any method for changing a nick.
trinque: you can just register a new key, though
mod6: ah, ok. thx trinque
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 6800.0, vol: 13477.06062120 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 6776.8, vol: 55613.40039211 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 6860.9, vol: 4520.58920367 | Volume-weighted last average: 6786.21230096
mats: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-29#1255753 << any suggestions for (preferably en-translated) reading material on this subj?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-08-29 19:03 asciilifeform: trinque: btw it was not clear to the folks who ran the camps, that this naturally-occurring system of hierarchy was a net plus re: net tonnage from the mines. hence the 'vory/suka wars' mircea_popescu referenced, a famous case where su authorities tried to monkey with the 'org chart'
trinque: if tits register a new key, are they thereby new tits?
BingoBoingo: For trinque and other parties interested in shipping their own boxes, considering the current cost basis and exchange rates to get a server homed for the first year is looking like ~0.57-0.6 BTC per rack unit (minding that especially power hungry servers may count as multiple rack units despite their physical footprint)
trinque: bit steep. how'd you arrive at that?
BingoBoingo: Math is ({[Montly costs of rack + business address + cost of off the shelf corporation (amoratized over 12 months)]/40 rentable rack units} * 12 months) * 2 per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-22#1727598 at 6800 usd per BTC☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-10-22 05:20 mircea_popescu: your cost basis is ~200 per server. you can rent them for 3-400 as such, or can give out vpsen, which are more productive. perhaps even "shared" if particularily interested into it.
BingoBoingo: amoratizing fixed costs (corporation, LACNIC IP address assignment) over 24 months rather than 12 offers little reduction in cost basis
BingoBoingo: Mind that this includes minimum viable commercial address (comes with locker, desk and coffee) for 244 monthly after VAT
BingoBoingo: Doing anything in a Zona Franca would allow for avoiding VAT, but it would put the bill for a commercial address close to the cost of the rack and come with pressure to hire 3 descendants of Italian refugees
BingoBoingo still refining worksheet
BingoBoingo: *244 USD monthly on the desk
BingoBoingo: The meat of the cost is in rack with connectivity
BingoBoingo does not know what alf-isp numbers look like, but does not imagine too different
BingoBoingo: Mind that ~0.6 ish BTC hit this year to home a server would mean ISP exists for next year when FX risk likely takes more favorable turn and cost basis starts diminishing
BingoBoingo to bed. Hopes these numbers/reasoning receive comment.
trinque: curious what happens to the price when btc buying power increases, as it likes to do.
trinque: could be as simple as billing monthly in advance, calculating bill as u*$operatingCost*1.15/40 or whatever margin atop you think is reasonable. $operatingCost denominated in BTC should be going down all the time
trinque: * $u
mircea_popescu: mod6 aha! fucking hysterical. and it's a huge paper-bread franchise too, all over latam.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my pleasure.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo check out the wonders of mother nature! no need to quarrel!
mircea_popescu: wer perhaps another user from before used the same nickname too << yes. someone else registered the nick, but didn't set enforcement on it. as a result you can use it (you don't get kicked by nickserv) but can't register it yourself. ask in #freenode if they're willing to move it over to you ; if not, find a diff name and register that.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : "gerry john gerryjohn151@gmail.com Submitted on 2017/11/14 at 11:16 p.m. HELLO EVERYONE I AM GIVING A TESTIMONY OF HOW I GOT RICH POWERFUL AND FAMOUS TODAY"
mircea_popescu: somehow the african notion of "famous" does not preclude the need to "give testimony". wouldn't i already know about him if he were famous ?
mircea_popescu: oh wait, THEYRE JUST WORDS. and yet the usg socialist is not ==== the subsaharan retard. because... DIFFERENCE, just like FAMOUS. they'll give testimony on the difference!
mircea_popescu: (in other lulz : nigeria took over south africa to become africa's largest economy years ago).
mircea_popescu: "emerging global power" and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1738804 << mno, you can't get both margins. either you put your whole cost structure into the bottom line, in which case you charge that ; or else you put your recurrents into the bottom line, charge *2 and amortize your fixed costs out of the 2nd part of that *2.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 06:12 BingoBoingo: amoratizing fixed costs (corporation, LACNIC IP address assignment) over 24 months rather than 12 offers little reduction in cost basis
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1738805 << see, this is the terrible habit of poor organisation. you don't say "VAT here is x%, and apparently can be avoided in so and so circumstances with so and so riders which works out to a minimum Y value past which it's worth doing".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 06:14 BingoBoingo: Mind that this includes minimum viable commercial address (comes with locker, desk and coffee) for 244 monthly after VAT
mircea_popescu: which is what you SHOULD say. no exceptions.
mircea_popescu: you just say "VAT". it can not be said, this word, by itself. it must be introduced, and retrospective half-ass, i'm not even gonna mention the % is rather infuriating.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1738811 << there's significant FX exposure in this scheme. consider the situations : someone pays you .6 BTC to whatever. a) BTC goes to 1mn usd ; he has now paid you 600k to do work worth 4k or so. this eventuality tends to discourage longer term payments.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 06:28 BingoBoingo: Mind that ~0.6 ish BTC hit this year to home a server would mean ISP exists for next year when FX risk likely takes more favorable turn and cost basis starts diminishing
BingoBoingo: VAT here is off pissing 22% on "services". Will rechew numbers
mircea_popescu: b) btc goes to $1. you're now on the hook for the same 3.5k, but if you didn't change the BTC to cash as you received it, you have no way to cover for it. this possibility makes just like a, people not want to pay long term.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile if you DO cash it out as you get it, you cash it out as you get it (missing out on a along with your customer).
mircea_popescu: i expect the correct solution will be weekly payments on yearly contracts. otherwise we end up encouraging antieconomic behaviour.
mircea_popescu: trinque ^ that sound like sense ? "you get this rack for a year, to be paid $x every mon" ?
mircea_popescu: mon*day i mean.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the problem with vat is that yes it's fucking annoying. but on one hand it generally replaces tarriffs, ie contrary to how annoying it is it has a neutral delta (case of dun shoot the messenger) and on the other hand many jurisdictions offer credible solutions. eg, romania has no vat for corps under a certain threshold, which is why i have corps there.
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine brazil doesn't have something similar.
mircea_popescu: o look, they don't. hm.
BingoBoingo: The problem is the "services" VAT hits on the rack
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it's a VALUE ADDED tax. you get it back when you export.
mircea_popescu: ie, if you buy a 1mn worth of widgets, 22% vat, and then you sell them, for 1.1mn, 22% vat, you will get back 220k worth of vat to offset your 242k obligation, leaving you with a 22k vat net payment on the .1mn you actually added.
mircea_popescu: so if you pay vat on the racks, see how exactly you qualify to get it back.
mircea_popescu: (if you do. govts are notoriously iffy about ACTUALLY living up to the part of their promise where money flows back out)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1738838 << actually this suggests to me a grand scheme which'd allow us to produce an ACTUAL bitcoin price! behold the following scheme :☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 11:16 mircea_popescu: mon*day i mean.
mircea_popescu: every fixing day (arbitrary day of week we choose), tmsr.isp lists the TOTAL it has to pay, and makes a bitcoin/usd offer. it can be arbitrarily anything, but in practice it'll be the output of !~ticker --market all Volume-weighted last average: bit (which is fucking ridiculous already, we're tracking bitfinex who the fuck came up with this) or else whatever rate whatever exchange the isp uses.
mircea_popescu: each of its customers has a choice : can either settle the amt due in bitcoin, at the proposed rate, or else can offer to make wire payment, for the TOTAL amount only.
mircea_popescu: if more than 1 customers option to pay via wire, the price is lowered by 1% in rounds until only one is left standing.
mircea_popescu: this is pureblood fixing, much like prices were established back when the jews did it, before socialists murdering them all and taking over.
diana_coman: !!seen PeterL
deedbot: 2017/09/16 03:22:27 <PeterL> Why is it that papers written by one guy still insist on using the "We" form for all the things they do?
diana_coman: I've been playing around with the keccak implementation from PeterL and it seems overall all right
mircea_popescu: o yeah i wonder what he's up to
diana_coman: I don't even know whether he tested it or how otherwise; also not sure if there isn't some way around using Strings.Unbounded
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> so if you pay vat on the racks, see how exactly you qualify to get it back. << More is to be done here
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> if more than 1 customers option to pay via wire, the price is lowered by 1% in rounds until only one is left standing. << Now this is interesting
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it's also only functional if we really have enough of a bottom line to make weekly wires feasible. nobody's wiring 300 bux
BingoBoingo: Right, but it's a direction to grow in
mircea_popescu: kinda teh point :p
mircea_popescu: the more shit we get the more shit we can get.
BingoBoingo to a lab, then mathtime
mircea_popescu: and in other mangoes, http://78.media.tumblr.com/116244e0c68c1e3784b273ed517a09cb/tumblr_nm3hvzklBe1u7fo01o1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: !!up mobile46836
deedbot: mobile46836 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1738857 << his keccak.adb per se, didn't use it. it was in the demo routine, for file i/o ( entirely unnecessarily)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 11:34 diana_coman: I don't even know whether he tested it or how otherwise; also not sure if there isn't some way around using Strings.Unbounded
diana_coman: asciilifeform, right
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you can painlessly abolish 99% of where typical cprogramming victim would use a dynamicism, by use of the declare-begin-end construct to allocate statics on the current stackframe
asciilifeform: ( see also http://www.adaic.org/resources/add_content/standards/05rm/html/RM-5-6.html , and ffa )
diana_coman finds ada rather endearingly - possibly because it reminds of Pascal
diana_coman: will check
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it was made out of pascal
asciilifeform: ( legend has it, there were three ada contestants, and the pascalist won. nothing is known re others. )
diana_coman: we were started on pascal in 9th grade and explicitly "because it forces order and neatness unlike c/cpp" ; unfortunately at uni it was mainly c/cpp/java
asciilifeform grew up with, and liked, pascal
asciilifeform: funnily enough it was also taught in 9th g. of ameristani school. at least when i went to it
asciilifeform: ( year after, replaced with... vb )
diana_coman: aha, I liked it too; but then everywhere I went it was ...java/c/cpp
asciilifeform: microshit sets curriculum..
diana_coman: oh, ugh; and yes, now you mention it I think it was same-change in Ro too
asciilifeform: ada ( even asciilifeform's 'fascist' ada subset ) is not exactly pascal. imho the most notable departure is the array slice abstraction, which makes for a 90% moar compact ffa ( and applies to almost anything else dealing in bitstrings, for that matter )
asciilifeform: the 'declare' construct mentioned earlier, also iirc did not exist in traditional pascal
asciilifeform: neither did modular types of arbitrary bitness, and several other minor nuts and bolts of ffa, that i cannot immediately recall.
asciilifeform: ( runtime generic instantiation certainly did not exist, and really has no analogous item in any other statically compiled language afaik )
diana_coman: oh, certainly; I wasn't under any illusion that ada==pascal, no; there is some danger in the perceived similarity too, basically the "false friend" type
mircea_popescu: re the "I don't even know whether he tested it or how otherwise;" bit -- this is the sad effect of publishing pastes/github links etc.
mircea_popescu: a snipped of code IS NOT SUFFICIENT. you gotta say ALL SORTS of things. such as this, yes, how it was tested and for what. and so following.
asciilifeform: pretty sure asciilifeform typically eats moar space in l0gz per paste, than paste weighs
mircea_popescu: just like in physics you can't say "5", a number, gotta say 5 WHATS ; just how BingoBoingo can't say "VAT", just so programmer can't say "here'\s code"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but this is notoriously bad arrangement. put them in a single node in a place organized for this.
mircea_popescu: something like http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/04/13/bundling-with-foxybot/ works a lot better because i can generally handle it on my own and if not can discuss it there, which also helps with scheduling.
asciilifeform: i've enough trouble keeping track of 9000 mutually contradictory variants of every possible thing, on own disk
asciilifeform: much less for publication.
mircea_popescu: but at some time you stop actively working on it
mircea_popescu: that's the wrap-up.
asciilifeform: at that time whole thing gets v-released.
mircea_popescu: no. that's when you stop altogether. when you stop working on it FOR NOW
asciilifeform: as it is , 100% of the thing is in may-theoretically-change form.
mircea_popescu: and more generally -- gotta organize your own process to interop sanely with others.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not a matter of the thing. a matter of you. "ima spend a week banging on this next month, and then maybe i pick it up agaion next year" is the scheduling form ; and this means there's a post sometime next month
mircea_popescu: but coding is coder-centric not code-centric. leave aside teh faux modesties of githubs and other usgtardations and set things on their proper footing : coding is all about the coder.
mircea_popescu: at which point i feel teh urge to also link http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/06/12/o-brave-new-code/ as it's such a perfect dialectic expose of the differences. code-about-code vs code-about-coder.
asciilifeform: it's a good post, but i notice it also does not include any coad
mircea_popescu: the first or the 2nd ?
asciilifeform: the last link
asciilifeform: diana_coman's
mircea_popescu: well no, it's moar like a poem.
mircea_popescu: the "here's how to add a new activity to foxybot" one does, yes.
asciilifeform: i was just thinking about this, this morning, during the 'declare' thread -- wanted to link to a particular item in ffa, and realized that i couldn't
diana_coman: ftr for the serpent ada implementation I wrote the testing part: grabbed published test vectors and wrote a snippet to eat them up, call the serpent, check results, complain if any mismatch
asciilifeform: diana_coman: what was the result ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform esp with the trilema-style js links youi can link to arbitrary spot
diana_coman: asciilifeform, all passed
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of various mechanisms that conspire to work together, just, gotta get human element to stop orcing it all up
asciilifeform: diana_coman: neato
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: syncing a wp turd with coad on disk, in flux, is a bitch tho
asciilifeform: and line numbering is destroyed every time thing changes
mircea_popescu: can write a tool for it. blog is on mysql
mircea_popescu: but yes, if you change version you're in a different situation than here contemplated.
asciilifeform: this item calls for something like phf's v-viewer
mircea_popescu: let's understand each other.
mircea_popescu: coding has four phases. as follows :
mircea_popescu: phase 1, when the mind reads. this is the normal state, whether you're trying to understand another's implementration or the republican design or clicking on tit pictures, you're in phase 1.
mircea_popescu: phase 2, when you write code. this is the excited state, "fuck this shit ima bang something out". it's like prototyping, not even clear whether something comes of it after all. many excited discussions here fail to progress past 1, "oh, I SEE what you meant!" is often their death knell.
mircea_popescu: phase 3, when you are done writing code FOR NOW. this is traditionally the "refactor break". this is also when you publish, explaining other than the code what you did and why, in detail. this included "i tested so and so -- i didn't test so and so" as it includes "i asume so and so". countrary to patently false subjective intution, this is the MOST valuabler of all the phases.
mircea_popescu: phase 4, when you are done writing code for A WHILE. it doesn't mean the code's good or bad, it means you personally will be doing other things. in this interval typically people discuss your 3 and stuff happens outside of your hands.
mircea_popescu: now, 4 can flow to 1 as it can flow back to 3, and 3 can flow to 1 as it can flow to 4 and so on and so forth. but the important point re these four phases is that they must be explicitly followed, for great personal as well as republic-wide gains of productivity and GDP.
asciilifeform does not disagree with any part of this
mircea_popescu: cool.
mircea_popescu: now, 3 ends and returns with a blogpost.
mircea_popescu: in preference of 1. a paste,forumdiscussion tuple ; 2. a github/medium/slockit/livejournal/slideshare/oglaf drawing etc ; 3. any other thing.
asciilifeform: if a wwwtronicist ( ben_vulpes ? ) were to come up with a method of dropping ada into wp and getting out an item that doesn't wrap or truncate lines, destroy numberings, and allows linking to individual rows -- i will take off my hat
asciilifeform: and use it.
asciilifeform: as it is, it's a sisyphian labour
mircea_popescu: neither my bash nor diana's c got truncated ?
mircea_popescu: but this aside : adding the code as text files, linked from the post is perfecty acceptable.
mircea_popescu: like how people did with their FG tests for instance.
asciilifeform: the logical unit of code is not 'text file' but individual routine. and sometimes, sub-routine
asciilifeform: and they gotta be discussed individually.
asciilifeform: and be present on screen with the discussion.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/how-the-beastforumcom-private-messaging-function-became-a-paid-user-only-item/ << dun like the what, spacing ?
trinque: asciilifeform: white-space: nowrap (css) on a pre tag oughta do that
mircea_popescu: consioder that for i in {1934360vii..1..12viii}; do usrix= << you can't fucking beat adnotated codelines jesus god.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's soup, no lines, no structure
mircea_popescu: it is single line.
mircea_popescu: bash command line stuff you know.
mircea_popescu: but ok, back to http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/04/13/bundling-with-foxybot/ <<
mircea_popescu: (can trivially set theme to overflow right, ~like her does)
asciilifeform: that looks like shit on my display btc
asciilifeform: *btw
mircea_popescu: scroll down.
asciilifeform: i run vertical display
mircea_popescu: imo this is the correct usage of html, make the code line as long as it needs.
mircea_popescu: ah you don't like scrolling right ?
asciilifeform: i'm ok with vert scroll
mircea_popescu: so you want a) arbitrary long lines on b) arbitrary narrow display in c) fixed point that nevertheless d) do not truncate ?
asciilifeform: afaik my lines are all in 80col
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so if you are, then what she does is correct (minus that overlaid in the way right bar). consider a line like if (!from || from->stackCount < quantity) { OutputMsg(csString("Not enough ingredients for bundling! Bot stopping.")); Error(); return false; } else { worldHandler::MoveItems(from->containerID, from->slot, toContainer, nextEmptySlot, quantity);
mircea_popescu: it's all in one line on her blog.
asciilifeform: diana_coman's item is moar or less the right thing, except that it is impossible to link to individual line
asciilifeform: ( even with mircea_popescu's script, if the code is changed, the links are mutilated )
mircea_popescu: there's no intention for blogposts to be liquidshit. once published they stay ; you want to change post another one.
asciilifeform: 9000 posts containing almost-same item, is not anyone's idea of readable
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think it is the right thing, minus that she should prolly change that Recent Posts divbox to float right with the content rather than be fixed. but this is a one byte fix
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is! it is EVERYONES! idea of readable. there's no other fucking readable.
mircea_popescu: hence journaling filesystems.
asciilifeform: readable is when structure is maximally preserved.
mircea_popescu: if you have a problem with confusing phase 2 and phase 3, this blogposting is exactly the pill required to resolve it.
mircea_popescu: (and no, even if it may seem comfortable, the confusion is antiproductive)
asciilifeform: in particular, related items gotta be near
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you just tell people "follow the last".
mircea_popescu: this is also how manuals work, like say http://www.eulorum.org/index.php?title=Eulora&action=history
trinque: asciilifeform: reintroducing structure atop the browser's dom isn't sensible, see: semantic web
mircea_popescu: there'\s as you can see 100s of diff variants
asciilifeform: trinque: i have nfi if what i asked for, can be done with extant www shitstack
trinque: thing'd have to know the code's AS
trinque: *AST
asciilifeform: trinque: not necessarily, could even store the lines individually, rather than as single text string, and generate the html soup in variants depending on number in url
trinque: eh, easier to just preserve revisions, and let people link to a particular one
trinque: no guarantee the linker *wants* to link your latest
asciilifeform: trinque: but let's say i take a routine from earlier ( e.g. unrolled comba mult ) and the rest -- from last week's
asciilifeform: and now would like to represent this transform without destroying structure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if that's your node level you are well advised to make posts for them rather than for the combo.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: knowing into what granularity thing must break, would require being able to tell the future, neh
mircea_popescu: And in this here FFa post we will be taking Comba Mult version x from y date and together with last week's X, Y and Z, and make this pile
asciilifeform: this is the naggum-cpp problem all over again -- we do not know, when beginning a project, the ultimate granularity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform neh, because it's your fucking blog, reflecting what you know when you write it not what you come to find in writing it
mircea_popescu: which is why it's even interesting to have one as an intellectual activity.
asciilifeform finally dug up link to what asciilifeform sees as state-of-the-art wwwtronic ada viewer : http://unzip-ada.sourceforge.net/za_html/index.htm ( they're auto-generated per project )
asciilifeform: it doesn't do the hierarchical or line-numbering thing tho
mircea_popescu: and in other log lulz, http://btcbase.org/log/2013-12-03#404575☝︎
a111: Logged on 2013-12-03 23:49 ThickAsThieves`: It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literally.
asciilifeform: but does have linking ( e.g. of definitions of procedures )
mircea_popescu: terrible.
mircea_popescu: basically, looks like a tripod site. if i want to link you to the "c" in Read(s,c); what do i do ?
asciilifeform: it won't win artistic awards but does about half of the job
asciilifeform: nao if something did whole of it..
mircea_popescu: neverfmind artistic. it's as functional as a hammer in a pot of soup.
mircea_popescu: how do i fucking link the c ?
mircea_popescu: how do i adnotate the s ?
mircea_popescu: how do i do anything beyond "here's a doodle, click 80 times in inept trees of documents like it's 1980 all over again and steve jobs hasn't yet come to put into abject slavery all sorts of retarded academiacs who really thought they had something to say" ?
asciilifeform: links look like http://unzip-ada.sourceforge.net/za_html/lzma_enc__adb.htm#23_33
mircea_popescu: no. how do i link the c.
asciilifeform: ah you meant the actual c pointed-at, vs the definition
mircea_popescu: thing has no way to underline byte error from tester to author and you give it a passing grade ?
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: in the given hack, you can't. hence i said 'does half the job'
mircea_popescu: it does none of the job.
asciilifeform: it's still a fail. but at least has the notion that routines are entities that oughta be pointable to.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/how-the-beastforumcom-private-messaging-function-became-a-paid-user-only-item/#selection-91.5-95.0 << hey mp, shouldn['t this 12 read 19 instead ?
asciilifeform: does a good bit moar of the job, than pasting a txt ( into wp or otherwise ) and manually grunting to annotate.
mircea_popescu: oh thank you mp, i see now what you had been trying to tell me for the past two hours because that's the sort of a mind i am. will fix now!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform who is going to read anything but non-auto adnotations.
asciilifeform: references to code outside of the current page, oughta be automatic links
asciilifeform: this avoids breaking flow in the reader's head.
mircea_popescu: wp module to do that is one page long.
asciilifeform: it has to parse the ada.
asciilifeform: so prolly not 1pg.
asciilifeform: but entirely possible to write.
mircea_popescu: can't imagine why not, ada still uses fixed calling, you can't call by pointer-to-string or shit can you
asciilifeform: it also has to have some notion of ada scope.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol not in ~my~ fascist ada.
mircea_popescu: ok so then.
asciilifeform: but yes such a thing is writable.
asciilifeform: not afaik written tho.
mircea_popescu: the important points here are a) scheduling. if we're in the middle of a conversation, low ranking rando won't make any friends by dumping comments re paste. if you had the decency to put it on blog, he can leave you a comment, which you can read when you have the time. major efficiency boon for everyone.
asciilifeform: i'd even settle for a very low-tech, orcish thing, that lives as emacslisp and shits out a wp post .
mircea_popescu: and b) correct linkage. such as above displayed, arbitrary byte, such as so on.
asciilifeform: eventually will have to sit down and write it, if no one else rises to it
mircea_popescu: there's also c) where it helps the mind mature into something that'll eventually be able to usefully v, but that's a secret.
mircea_popescu: (the a above may seem minor, but both apeloyee and some random noob yest ran into th eexact problem. only one survived it far we can tell.)
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1738923 << the underutilized part of patches visualizer is the tree view, it shows what specific file will actually look like when pressed with a specific patch, e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/programmable-versionstring/tree/bitcoin/src/crypter.cpp as you can see formatting is not particularly good, but it supports highlighting various languages including Ada. so given a normal v-based workflow (is there one?) can get☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 17:19 asciilifeform: this item calls for something like phf's v-viewer
phf: a visualizer for free
asciilifeform: hey phf -- you ever published the v-viewer ?
phf: no, it
phf: err
mircea_popescu: phf i dunno, if there is slow to uptake.
asciilifeform: might be a considerable head start for item in this thread
asciilifeform: depending on what it's made of
phf: basically the tree viewer is half baked and i'm not eating my own dog food here, so i'm relying on teh public to give me feedback ("phf fucking fix this fucking thing") which so far has not been forthcoming
asciilifeform: phf: ftr i'm quite satisfied with it
asciilifeform: aside from 1 nitpick, the charts overflow my screen
mircea_popescu: phf well, is it itself a v-chain ?
phf: asciilifeform: no haven't published it, it's a big ball of mud that in the gran lisp machine tradition lives in TMSR package, along with log bot, log visualizer, log database, etc. so if there's interest in any specific parts i can extract them into library and publish, but i've not been planning on publishing the whole thing
phf: i think it might be worthwhile to publish for example vpatch parser and presser machinery though
phf: because we don't have an equivalent available
asciilifeform: phf: consider at the very least sawing off the code parser and entire set of items that pertain to www
asciilifeform: into something publishable
asciilifeform: but ideally yes whole thing
phf: like a kind of vpatch gitlab thing, ok i'll think where and how to slice
asciilifeform: aha, that's what it was called. the item which i suspect is 99% of what draws the heathens into 'git' etc
asciilifeform: the www viewer thing.
mircea_popescu: gah. i feel like in a spider web, every move to improvement resulting in worse shittifyication.
phf: mircea_popescu: it is (though there's an interruption in the chain that i need to regrind) that doesn't help me though, because it's the whole thing, rather than parts.
mircea_popescu: phf what do you mean "publish", dump another paste ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how's that
mircea_popescu: so that THIS also becomes an "unowned random bit of nothing" and we just sink into idocy ervery year a little deeper ?
mircea_popescu: "i've not been planning on publishing the whole thing" << why not, are you planning to what, sell it ?
mircea_popescu: or did you just make to try and ruin the republic thereby, "here's an engine, it sorta works, im never making it work correctly haha and fuck you" ?
phf: mircea_popescu: no, publish meaning put relevant parts into patch visualizer, i otherwise haven't published anything. log/patch visualizer is presented as a service, as far as log is concerned the philosophy has been "write your own" and there's not been much interest in the v part until now
mircea_popescu: are you gonna start charging for it then ?
phf: i resent the "sorta works" bit, i've been responsive with any feedback related to log and patch visualizer. i've not read todays log so maybe i missed how /patches fits into greater scheme of things
mircea_popescu: don't resent it ; instead, let's examine what this "ima publish" entails.
mircea_popescu: there's two major management problems with publishing : one if it's done heathenly, like alf does it, pastes and whatnot ; the other is subjective, "i published it so it's no longer my thing".
mircea_popescu: neither of these are good outcomes.
mircea_popescu: now, which of these two didn't you have in mind with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739048 cuz i read both in there.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 17:59 phf: asciilifeform: no haven't published it, it's a big ball of mud that in the gran lisp machine tradition lives in TMSR package, along with log bot, log visualizer, log database, etc. so if there's interest in any specific parts i can extract them into library and publish, but i've not been planning on publishing the whole thing
phf: have i stopped beating my wife yet?
mircea_popescu: fine, so i read 'em when they were absent, woe unto me.
phf: i'm not sure what publishing the whole thing entails, the only bit that i even considered is something along the lines of what trinque did with his irc bot
mircea_popescu: i'm not sure what the benefit of publishing would be. so what, someone else runs it or what.
asciilifeform: in this particular case, so that something else can be built from same parts
mircea_popescu: why would you build something else instead of using the something that already is ?
mircea_popescu: he wrote it, let him run it, and not be discouraged by "not forthcoming" or w/e happened there.
asciilifeform: the current item, as i understand it, doesn't interoperate with wp ( or otherwise blogotronic )
mircea_popescu: what exactly did happen ? phf wrote a fine v parser ; jurov sweated white hairs getting an email system into alf-tip-top shape only for it to not be used as soon as it was got to work...
mircea_popescu: there's some neuralgia involved here. what is it ?
asciilifeform: hey i still to this day use jurov's system, whenever submitting trb patch.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how would you see it interoperate ? there's links in html, is more needed ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform when was that last ?
asciilifeform: the 'wires' thing
asciilifeform: and moar recently the db timings experiment
mircea_popescu: and so the problem there was what ?
asciilifeform: none, it worked
mircea_popescu: so the desired interop with wp would look like what ?
phf: well, that's fine by me, i think what happened is some other conversation got crossed over into what i was thinking. alf said you gotta publish, to which i responded with a very non committal "i'll think about it". but there were parts that i was thinking of publishing. specifically vpatch parser and presser both of which don't really on external tools, but accomplish the whole thing in memory. might be useful for further vtronics
phf: *don't rely
mircea_popescu: phf nothing wrong with that.
mircea_popescu: how is vtron currently fed, via email list thing jurov made ?
phf: it is still manual process, and we've had a thread about it along the lines of "build it when there's need"
mircea_popescu: aha.
phf: manual meaning that i see a vpatch in any random place, i post it (obviously it benefits me, more content etc.)
asciilifeform: ( jurov's apparatus worx great. but it only introduces messages to the ml. )
mircea_popescu: so then, it's more like a sort of curated "Best of" blogposts eh ? you go around reading people's blogs like the editor of old science mags, going "plox put this in format for editorial"
mircea_popescu: this as described could work splendidly well.
phf: correct, so far there's not been any editorializing. even dead vpatches live in their own patchset
asciilifeform: this is not necessarily a bad thing
mircea_popescu: alright so then is this structure deemed seaworthy for a while ?
phf: but oftentimes when i post a patch something comes up anyway. like the recent mpi release by asciilifeform is a vpatch, but it lacks a genesis, which breaks all kinds of assumptions (e.g. the tree visualizer wouldn't work at all)
asciilifeform: phf: didja ever explain what you mean 'lacks genesis' ?
asciilifeform: your copy of mpi-genesis.tar.gz was lost, or wat
mircea_popescu: i had thought i saw a genesis too.
phf: mpi-genesis.tar.gz is not a vpatch though
phf: or is it? i might've missed that part
mircea_popescu: um. i dunno, what's wrong with it ?
asciilifeform: a yes it is phf
asciilifeform: tarball contains 2 files, the genesis, and sig
phf: oooh, well, that fixes that then
mircea_popescu: maybe his thing didn't eat it for some reason.
asciilifeform: and it's a perfectly legit ( manually ground, from mpi, just like trb genesis was from 0.5.3 ) genesis.
mircea_popescu: phf do you have roughly the equiv of a "feed paste in here" slit for it ?
asciilifeform: phf: if your thing wasn't able to parse it, i'd much like to know why
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1533 << mircea_popescu , phf whole shebang , for reference
phf: mircea_popescu: i briefly had it, but removed it due to lack of use (it also predates the sbcl rewrite, so it was particularly janky code)
mircea_popescu: aha.
phf: mircea_popescu: right now it's an ssh copy and (tmsr:refresh-vpatches) call
mircea_popescu: well anyway, this'd be a great time to go through the slag, "items that didn't work list" see what other mpis are in there
asciilifeform: afaik there's nothing peculiar re the vdiff. lemme know why your parser barfed, phf , when you find out
mircea_popescu: ima have diana_coman put the whole eulora crypto in vpatch form even if we're not yet advanced enough with the cleaning of codebase to use v properly.
phf: asciilifeform: it didn't, i just didn't realize that there was a proper genesis
asciilifeform: aaa
mircea_popescu: will take a public comment blogpost pass first, so ideally early next year
mircea_popescu: reuses large swaths of alf and peterl work.
mircea_popescu: (so in this sense saves them the hassle to v themselves ; though sigs welcome of course)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my sigs for the mpiism are on the linked pg.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: you proposing better idea to branch it off mpi ?
asciilifeform: you can produce this mechanically. the unfortunate bit is that it gives same problem as basing trb on original 5.3.1 tarball contents did
asciilifeform: ( namely, the volume of deletolade and moveolade liquishit resulting, is multi-megabyte )
mircea_popescu: i meant, rather than make a genesis for eu-crypto, just make a branch of your mpi
asciilifeform: prior to realizing that ffa is the troo path, asciilifeform actually planned to entirely re-do the mpi item
asciilifeform: because it was , as you can probably see, done barbarically
mircea_popescu: but yes, the alternative is to genesis it and then link downstream from ffa.
asciilifeform: ( the correct way, ought to have been, to do it in individual tiny snips from gpg-1.4.10, so the pedigree can be authenticated . )
mircea_popescu: i am not interested in claiming any kochian pedigrees.
asciilifeform: fair'nuff
asciilifeform: asciilifeform certainly did not make any attempt to sanitize the remaining routines or otherwise ascertain correctness, however
asciilifeform: so it is still entirely a koch product
asciilifeform: but i suppose is now a dried, rather than soft turd.
phf: http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=mpi http://btcbase.org/patches/mpi_second_cut http://btcbase.org/patches/mpi_second_cut/tree/mpi/mpi-mul.c#L108 etc.
asciilifeform: oh hey.
mircea_popescu: anyway. my conclusion is ima do the eu-crypto as a new genesis, because really most of the koch crap in mpi (esp the prng crap) got dirtched
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it wasn't even included in mine
asciilifeform: ( i even threw out the prime gen )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/patches/mpi_second_cut << dat red...
asciilifeform: snippetysnip
asciilifeform: thing could shrink further, i left koch's buffering system , used by the logger ( also remained ), intact
phf: i added readme to mpi patchset also
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/patches/mpi_second_cut#L5394 maximal lulz
asciilifeform: ditto allocator
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: this i confess is a fine way to read code.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, we can do it yes; I guess the question is where to start i.e. no point in starting from koch that I can see; starting from asciilifeform 's sane-mpi would be one; adds and deletes stuff
mircea_popescu: diana_coman so what's your call, rather write as mpi branch or rather stand alone ?
mircea_popescu: the significant benefit of branch would be that this'd be the first in-the-field case to demonstrate this interprojects interop thing.
diana_coman: it uses the mpi part and quite substantially so works
asciilifeform: also helps that my mpi builds a standalone static lib
asciilifeform: ( linker then links it )
mircea_popescu: it's basically mostly that + the keccac ada peterl wrote + some new stuff
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. kinda iirc the whole idea of the design at the time was for to be able to have this convo today.
diana_coman: I get the feeling that v is not really seen as versioning in the sense of these are the steps I took, still mulling a bit on thiw
mircea_popescu: i can't see why it wouldn't be.
asciilifeform: also gotta nitpick, this is not the first time vtronic crosspollination,
asciilifeform: trinque's logotronics were used by later bots
asciilifeform: ( iirc by ben_vulpes )
mircea_popescu: link to this ?
asciilifeform: hmm
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=bot&search= ?
asciilifeform: possibly i am mistaken about this
asciilifeform: because i also ended up with http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=bot&search= and dun see where they meet
trinque: yes, logs.bvulpes.com is powered by a logbot
asciilifeform: but is it published anywhere
asciilifeform: and itself vtronic
asciilifeform: or did i dream it
trinque: that I do not know
mircea_popescu: trinque user rather than you know, patch published
phf: ircbot-genesis is trinque's , ircbot-multiple-channels-corrected is ben_vulpes's code
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with it
trinque: nah don't think he had to patch
mircea_popescu: phf yes but how do they lkink ?
trinque: log viewer just reads same db
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=fg&search= << in other olds.
phf: with an arrow
trinque: phf: correct
phf: i couldn't resist
mircea_popescu: ahahaah what!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually i made a quite heavy use of phf's viewer, when linking to fg details in log
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, depending on what we use finally it might be ada-serpent too,unclear
diana_coman: and re peterl's keccak implementation trouble is that thoroughly testing it looks atm as much work as writing a new one in the process anyway so whatever version ends up with tests and everything is the one that will make it into v too I would say
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as logbot (bv item) has a genesis, it is not a branchoff. yes it imports from a different line.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman some bits of code, such as heavily linked against standard hash etc would normally take a zillion reimplementations rereads etc anyways.
diana_coman: all the merrier for sure, yes
trinque: logbot's my thing.
trinque: but anyhow
phf: mircea_popescu: there's a bit of confusion there with logbot, because ircbot and logbot were both published by trinque by they are not vtronic connected, they rely on lisp machinery to load each other. multichannel equivalents of both were publshed by ben_vulpes
mircea_popescu: sorry ircbot is ben_vulpes ?
mircea_popescu: i am well confused yes.
mircea_popescu: so trinque you made two diff items that differ how ? one's the irc bot the other's the logger ?
trinque: ircbot's a lisp class that sits connected to IRC
trinque: logbot's a descendent class that puts log lines in a db
mircea_popescu: and they each got their own genesis ?
trinque: ben_vulpes patched former for multiple channel support, and latter to use former changes
mircea_popescu: phf how do i click on ircbot-multiple-channels to see what's there ?
trinque: then wrote a completely separate html viewer for the db logbot extrudes
trinque: each got own genesis yep.
phf: mircea_popescu: it's actually a broken patch (i.e. it was published broken), i need to move it to deprecated, since *-corrected has been published since
mircea_popescu: i have been sitting here for 10 mins trying to figure out wtf this is, not getting any closer
phf: :D
mircea_popescu: so im reading trinque.org now in hopes there's explainy.
phf: oh and don't open link #3 that crashes everything!1
trinque: http://trinque.org/2016/08/
mircea_popescu: btw re the namecheap i see here : http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22namesilo%22
mircea_popescu: so far working well.
trinque: cool, I'll look into that then.
mircea_popescu: trinque you know the cursive "trinque" overwrites the top title on the page on my system ?
mircea_popescu: trinque having read these two articles i dunno why they got independent genesises.
trinque: probably css onanism I committed not working
trinque: whysat?
mircea_popescu: well for one thing, logbot can't stand up without ircbot.
mircea_popescu: first line in install being "install this other thing" is generally an indication item present can't be genesised. maybe not an absolute rule, esp if multiple priors involved. but if just one...
asciilifeform: kalash bullet dun work without kalash either, but they are quite separate items
phf: (this is actually related to the code reuse thread we had, the extra-v code reuse machinery is fundamentally at odds with vtronic approach, the conclusion in that thread was "do more retyping it's good for you", which i agree with, but i believe asciilifeform was against it)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is against all things, gotta be dragged kicking and screaming over all thresholds.
mircea_popescu: i got flea in my ointment!
asciilifeform: retyping is great
asciilifeform: being a human diff, on other hand, is not great.
asciilifeform: leave mechanical diffing to the machine, it's why we even have machine.
mircea_popescu: unavoidable. see the screams of the lost, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739193☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 18:43 diana_coman: and re peterl's keccak implementation trouble is that thoroughly testing it looks atm as much work as writing a new one in the process anyway so whatever version ends up with tests and everything is the one that will make it into v too I would say
asciilifeform: just how avoidable, or not, is separate q
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re kalash bullet, my usage list for kalash bullet is "lube generously, insert" not "put into rifle". so it makes sense to genesis.
trinque: I can see it, and also that the case where it would be impossible (tangled hierarchy, mutual dependency) is idiocy.
trinque: goes right to what I've been saying in the hypertext thread, too
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: likewise i can see logbot being used without ircbot -- with, say, shortwavebot
mircea_popescu: so is this a regrind then ?
trinque: this requires that particular hash antecedent, and not my blog post on the subj
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that'll be an import if/when happens
asciilifeform: point being that they are independent components that could be changed out
asciilifeform: rather than logical parts of same proggy
mircea_popescu: otherwise the eminently usable trinque bot is what, iirc in hanbot's hands too she was contemplating doing soemthing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your brand of logical here is inadequate. the matter isn't what things could be.
mircea_popescu: the matter is what things are.
mircea_popescu: when they become something they could have been but weren't, they'll be something else.
asciilifeform: they're separate programs.
mircea_popescu: everything's SEPARABLE. including your spleen.
mircea_popescu: but as they stand right now, they're not separate.
asciilifeform: moar like my slippers.
trinque: can name the antecedent and still put vpatches in two piles
asciilifeform: ( of which i have only 1 pair atm, but they did not ship with my feet )
trinque: "beyond here this crocodile grows robot legs"
asciilifeform: gotta prevent the spittoon from being in one strand. otherwise e.g. linux kernel becomes an antecedent to everything
mircea_popescu: trinque so you'd rather keep it as two separate items is the idea here ?
trinque: nope, agreeing actually
trinque: logbot's antecedent *is* ircbot
mircea_popescu: ah. alright. without prejudice to the principle, "can't make everything one single hairstrand", there's also the consideration that can't make the whole repuiblican scalp buzz-cut
mircea_popescu: and otherwise to cap a very productive morning... are there any neglected issues ?
trinque: better stated, I observe that nothing about having a continuous tree prevents naming particular runs of the tree, pointing at, using for different purposes.
trinque: I proposed that as a better solution to portability a while back
trinque: rather than #ifdef or *features*-ing the hell out of the code
mircea_popescu: aha. afaik that's the dogma to this day, "whenever you feel like someone's branch can be your genesis"
mircea_popescu: and speaking of bots, lobbes is your idea to genesis lobbesbot ?
mircea_popescu: in other sads, /me ended up readiong log linked from trinque's paybot discussion, can confess no longer remembers what http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-03#1693391 was about.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-08-03 18:35 mircea_popescu: trinque i'll dare say it's something else. have you ever seen "a man for all seasons" ?
mircea_popescu: oh, fuck! i just remembered! YAY MEMORY!
phf: getting old,.. wait not yet!
mircea_popescu: :p
ben_vulpes: https://www.timeslive.co.za/sunday-times/business/2017-11-15-bitcoin-surges-in-zimbabwe-after-military-seize-power/
ben_vulpes: in literal zimbabweisms
asciilifeform: 'The price of the cryptocurrency in the Southern African nation jumped as high as $13,499' but in which $ ?
ben_vulpes: goes on to suggest usd
asciilifeform: also gotta wonder what is , e.g., bar of soap in $ there
mircea_popescu: o look, nation of africa progresses some more ?
ben_vulpes: tanks rolling, fiat crashing
phf: cats living with dogs
mircea_popescu: the epitome of this being of course teh austro-hungarians cca 1914.
mircea_popescu: somewhere on trilema the record of "o noes, people FOR NO REASON increased prices, when we're totally gonna win war", but gotta split so will look for it later.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/on-july-29-1914
asciilifeform: 'The authorities declare that the sudden increase in the prices of provisions and vegetables is totally unwarranted. ... It was officially asserted that there was no reason for apprehension with regard to the food supply, and that it was needless for citizens to start the accumulation of stores of provisions. The only effect of such procedure, it was added, would be to still further raise prices.' etc
mircea_popescu: right-o!
mircea_popescu: bbs
shinohai: How long until Bitcoin Plus plus http://www.bitcoincashplus.org/
asciilifeform: 'Emergency Difficulty Adjustment' << lel
asciilifeform: 'Anyone who held Bitcoin at the time Bitcoin Cash Plus was created became owners of Bitcoin Cash Plus. This means that Bitcoin holders as of block 501407 ' << apparently, contrary to appearances, is NOT a fork of bch
asciilifeform: but instead a rerun of the august item
phf: "The need for Harmony arose out of me not finding any suitably powerful sound solution in Lisp. I tried doing a pure Lisp solution at first, but was not able to figure out how to make things go fast without sacrificing design. So, in the interest of performance, I first set out to write a C library that does the essential sound computations for me. This library is called libmixed."
asciilifeform: 'sacrificing design'
trinque: pretty sad item to come through "Planet Lisp" RSS
trinque: maybe they meant the other lisp
phf: "shinmera" is part of the new school of common lispers who put out reams of code that's basically ffi to c world. nothing wrong with it per se, but from traditional lisp perspective they are prime wreckers
asciilifeform: the 'it's ok for your sbcl world to segfault' people
asciilifeform: i'll disagree with the 'nothing wrong'.
asciilifeform: plain and simple wreckers, with no asterisks.
asciilifeform: if i want c, i'll write in c.
phf: well, in a sense that it's not a special wrong. they also run systemd and can't wait for wayland etc. etc.
ben_vulpes: http://wookie.lyonbros.com/ comes to mind
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what's in there ? openssl ?
phf: ben_vulpes: yeah, one of those people
phf: asciilifeform: uses cl-async which is an ffi to libuv
asciilifeform: aaa
ben_vulpes: yeah, that part
phf: amusingly none of that "super fast" shit is used anywhere. venerable hunchentoot was used used by weitz to deliver consulting solutions (was also used by me for same purpose back when it was tbnl), these super fast toys are used to host author's blog.
asciilifeform: mega-unsurprise
asciilifeform: but this is why they lichen-attack and eat away at the working stuff
asciilifeform: recall the old thread,
asciilifeform: !#s flycheck
a111: 60 results for "flycheck", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=flycheck
asciilifeform: ^ typical example
asciilifeform: worthless piece of shit, 'used by no one' until they broke functionality (on crapple) of the venerable and eternal 'flymake'
asciilifeform: and then worked into the docs, 'flymake is obsolete' nonsense
asciilifeform: same thing is being done to, e.g., gcc
phf: emacs's cl-lib vs cl, etc.
asciilifeform: 'why are you still using that obsolete...'
phf: shit my emacs greets me with iswitchb-mode is obsolete on boot, if i cared enough i'd patch it out, but it's a daily meditation on the general level of fuck
phf: (there's obviously no feature equivalent mode for iswitchb, recommended replacements while i'm sure work for some are overengineered monstrosities)
ben_vulpes: helm is definitely that
asciilifeform: the solution is absolutely never 'hey which flycheck turd should i use nao'
asciilifeform: but rather confiscation of the whole shebang from the wreckers.
asciilifeform: and in every case to find a name. ~who~ broke $proggy. and what else has he shat into.
asciilifeform: find also the collaborationists, who tolerated.
asciilifeform: ( rms, sad as it may be to say, is among these. )
phf: still waiting for the kristallnacht
asciilifeform: hey mircea_popescu , radio havana reported 'tres muertos' in yer earthquake.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform you just tell people "follow the last". << Tag, category, etc.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739265 << My ultimate goal with the thing would be to use trinque's ircbot and try and rebuild lobbesbot off of that. As it stands now, lobbesbot is nothing more than a suite of 'supybot modules' I wrote☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 19:16 mircea_popescu: and speaking of bots, lobbes is your idea to genesis lobbesbot ?
lobbes: i.e. it still uses someone else's code for the 'core' irc functionality. I'd rather that core functionality be ircbot, but of course this'll be a huge time investment migrating everything (and learning lisp). In the hopper, though.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> but i suppose is now a dried, rather than soft turd. << So you broom rather than mop
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in психушка noose, https://archive.is/5aOSp >> 'The U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved a pill Monday that has a digital ingestion tracking system which can tell if medication was ingested by a patient. ... to allow easier treatment of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and some depression'
ben_vulpes: take yr soma, citizen
shinohai: How does it help the poor schizophrenic ? He's probably freaking out "I'll bet they know I took this pill......"
asciilifeform: lol help
asciilifeform: !!up PeterL_
deedbot: PeterL_ voiced for 30 minutes.
PeterL_: hi, missed the 30 second window to identify as PeterL
PeterL_: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737536 << for key generation, why not pick a p between say 2^512 and 2^3584 (or whatever values) until you find a prime, then look for a q between 2^4096/p and 2^4097/p ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 11:33 apeloyee: diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense.
asciilifeform: why?!
PeterL_: gives a wider range of possible values than just using a set bitness for both p and q
PeterL_: and you end up with the right size of value for p*q , right?
asciilifeform: how does it give a wider range ?!
asciilifeform: not to mention that 2^4097 cannot be represented AT ALL in a 4096bit ffa
asciilifeform: not even to divide by a p that guaranteed to not equal 1
PeterL_: 2^4097-1 ?
asciilifeform: that yes
asciilifeform: i still see no reason to do this
asciilifeform: let p be any 4096b prime, let q be any 4096b prime, throw out both if pq exposes a high bit of 0
asciilifeform: it's unbeatable and simple.
PeterL_: I thought we were trying to get p and q where p*q is 4096b?
asciilifeform: and my algo above guarantees it.
asciilifeform: it simply won't terminate until pq is 4096b.
PeterL_: I guess I was just trying to skip a few iterations of chucking out bad values?
asciilifeform: there is no such thing as 'bad value' for individual p or q
PeterL_: since once you get p, you should know the size q needs to be
asciilifeform: neither can be greater than 2048b in size
PeterL_: why not?
asciilifeform: because ffa.
PeterL_: I dun follow?
asciilifeform: i deliberately removed support for non-powersof2 bitnesses.
asciilifeform: to simplify karatsuba and other algos.
asciilifeform: this was discussed here and if PeterL_ followed the logs, he would have noticed.
PeterL_: but why do you limit to 2048 and not 4096?
asciilifeform: either is a legal bitness
asciilifeform: e.g. 3584 however is not
asciilifeform: in a 4096b rsa run, p and q are 2048b primes
PeterL_: why do they have to be 2048b?
asciilifeform: because it's 4096b rsa.
asciilifeform: and the difficulty of breaking rsa via known methods is proportional to the size of the smallest prime. you oughta know that.
asciilifeform: this is 1st grade material.
PeterL_: but isn't it easier to break knowing that they must be 2048b than if they could be anywhere within a wider range?
asciilifeform: nope.
PeterL_: hmm, I must have missed that day in 1st grade
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1738855 << I am glad you find it useful☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 11:33 diana_coman: I've been playing around with the keccak implementation from PeterL and it seems overall all right
asciilifeform: PeterL: consider, even plain brute force benefits from permitting one of the primes to have less than half of the total bitness of the product
PeterL: but if pure brute forcing, why not start at sqrt(N) and work down?
asciilifeform: PeterL: work out the chance, in your scheme, of the smaller prime being below 2048b in length.
asciilifeform: it isn't small.
asciilifeform: and much higher than the chance of any considerable number of leading 0s in p or q generated via proper scheme.
asciilifeform: at any rate this is a quite pointless imho discussion, we will NOT be reintroducing normalized integer braindamage.
asciilifeform: if you want to do crypto you do it with power-of-2-wide registers.