mircea_popescu: "make things simple". you know, "to attract new people". so then call eval() on random text files!
shinohai: Because reporting system crashes automagically is VERY important!
mircea_popescu: wait, i thought this works on the crash report ~reader~
shinohai: Use Cases: "Willy was creating a logo for his soccer club in Inkscape when it crashed. Being the family's Ubuntu expert, he feels a responsibility to help improve the system. He's reported one or two bugs in Launchpad before, though it wasn't a particularly enjoyable experience. "
shinohai: Dear lord, if I find a bug, I certainly don't want to report it, I want to hide it away for future use, if any!
mircea_popescu: reporting bugs in here is very enjoyable in my experience.
mircea_popescu: are you aware YOUR server redirects to www.url all teh time ?
mircea_popescu: dude ubuntu is such a shitshow... gnomep-anel eating 35% of cpu wtf.
mircea_popescu: there's something i don't understand. if 3 mods pop at the same time like this, shouldn't it be because they shared a factor ?
mircea_popescu: a right. so basically there's no reasonable expectation
mircea_popescu: there's some "b2b" app somewhere printing the banners as instruction sets or wtf.
mircea_popescu: it's up there on the level of, you know how pretentions twits NAME their house ? "Villa Futipemata" and stuff ?
mircea_popescu: this'd be on the level of naming it "Villa Please Turn The Doorknob To Gain Entrance."
mircea_popescu: actually iirc there was some woman who named her daugher Drop Table Students;-- so...
mircea_popescu: meanwhile torchlight has the following advice for me : "if you find yourseld dying too much, you should try to increase your armor"
mircea_popescu: i honestly thought i should run around drinking random fluids more. isn't random-fluids-drinking the death preventer ? it is ARMOR !?
phf: torchlight?? scrapping the bottom of the barrel there
phf: i got to some "hell" levels on "hardcorest of modes, stay away" and gave up because i was just cutting through everything like butter. it just got dull
phf: d2 at least had balance
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ayup. there's tons of stuff, i cut it short because my reference list was gettying endless
phf: i think it was a trapper vanquisher
mircea_popescu: phf dude you gotta try the caster. it's the night of reason, so i got summon skeletons; summon skeleton archers and summo nzombies on the main + summon zombies and summon floating sword ON THE PET. that's like 40 different things ; and a sort of chain lightning that goes through walls. (summons also work through walls).
mircea_popescu: i'm basically following around a swarm of angry mobs cutting up a different swarm of angry mobs.
phf: ha, i'm not falling for that one! i'm right now in the process of trying to kill that damn dragon
mircea_popescu: people in gaming always go "oh, it's always possible" and then point to the death of lord british as a definitive example.
mircea_popescu: but this has been an open and unsolved problem for 17 years.
phf: hmm, i'm giving it another three days
phf: they said the same about fermat's last theorem!
mircea_popescu: i even tried reloading the map billion times to see if useful peasant pops up. some give you major bonuses.
mircea_popescu: wands of shrapnel might do it, if you live long enough. but no chests there are good enough to spawn one
mircea_popescu: hey listen pete_dushenski , i need someone to be the auctioneer for the next s.mg auction in eulora because i want to be able to bid myself. do you wanna do the job ? i'll pay ya 1mn ecus.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: sure thing (assuming it's just in #eulora irc chan). on one condition : i do it pro bono.
mircea_popescu: i can link you to the proceedings of a coupla past ones if you wanna see
mircea_popescu: anyway, this will be a pretty big one, as far as these go. i imagine it'd soak up 1-2 hrs of your time.
mircea_popescu is off to bed, but we shall continue this discussion tomorrow. along with all the others!
pete_dushenski: and it's this coming sunday ? or a future sunday ? time and timezone would also be helpful, unless that's for me to set.
pete_dushenski: "Do not report this issue to Homebrew/brew or Homebrew/core!" << speaking of error reports, just got this lolzotron trying to install eulora on osx 10.8
trinque: pretty hard for me to condemn assad while my ass still sits in the country that sold al qaida chemical weapons to be used, then blamed on assad.
☟︎ pete_dushenski: trinque: that whole 'red line' act in the chemweapon affair took the cake.
trinque: I don't think much of luck, so I'll say do well instead!
trinque: in other python 2 was already shit... all([]) -> True yet any([]) -> False
☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎ trinque: All of Elliot's no girlfriends fucked him all night. -> True.
Framedragger: trinque: that's sorta fuckin' weird. "empty set as first class citizen" something something...
a111: Logged on 2016-12-15 15:54 Framedragger: (numbers in filenames and internal line order maps to openpgp files i gave you, fwiw)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 04:31 pete_dushenski marks off time on calendar.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 06:24 trinque: in other python 2 was already shit... all([]) -> True yet any([]) -> False
mircea_popescu: "are {} all the elements of the empty set ?" "yes." "name one such element." "there isn't one."
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 06:40 trinque: yeah I guess it checks out.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-01 18:44 mircea_popescu: the sad fact of the matter is that the brain is not a reasoning engine. in a very purely naturalistic, bio-logical way, this is sensible. the practice of "talk to the text, not context or subtext" has become established through moo practice
mircea_popescu: all_internet_ssh_banners.txt.tar.gz 109 0 11.16 GB 102.38 MB so far ; not the end of teh world.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: ah, that's cool and useful, ty
mircea_popescu: Framedragger it's an iffy thing from my pov, because on one hand you know, you did it i should link it ; but on the other i dunno how many people'd click and how well you're set-up for it. anyway if you'd like a blog linked or something do say.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: thanks. in point of fact a blog is now in actual plans, not only oneday-maybewaybe. :) re. capacity to handle, at least the connection is unmetered, and it's just static nginx. but it's not anything big. so this is useful and appreciated.
mircea_popescu checked, about half of that was in the first half hour (thanks god for delayed rss otherwise it'd prolly be within five minutes eh!) so that's like 3MB/s jus' there.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger not so much a matter of the webserver itself, the load on that is minimal for large file transfers ; but from experience most hosters offer 1Mbps to 1MBps links unless actually specified. and this is outide of any "intelligent" throttling at the router interface etc.
mircea_popescu: shinohai ironically we're also giving up on gpg, for the exactly opposite reason.
mircea_popescu: there's a lesson in this, where being a jwz dun pay. gotta pick sides, loud and clear.
shinohai: I shall make haste to leave these walls the day you recommend using signal+tor
mircea_popescu: the incredible audacity of the usg assets. really, they are STILL pushing tor ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah, good point. well the hosting provider is ~shitty and quality of bw offered is not great (OVH), but it *does* make a more-or-less successful attempt at providing an actual full duplex 100 mbps, which isn't a lot, but still decent to my liking. so at least there's that.
Framedragger: even Framedragger doesn't push tor anymore. *and that's telling you somethin'* :D
mircea_popescu: i honestly don't know anyone (who is someone, i don't mean kids with no money, no power and no value dicking about ; and who isn't actually nsa) is still using the thing.
mircea_popescu: so it is somewhat moot. they might as well advertise microsoft powerclip + yahoo briefcase as a solution, for all the difference it'd make.
mircea_popescu: and god knows both those "corporations" need it badly.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger you actually saw this in action ? ie, served 40ish GB in any given hour or anything like that ?
Framedragger: (i use tor to access things like library genesis while still in airstrip one, but that says more about airstrip one than anything else.)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: well, didn't *serve*, but benchmarked myself. i can try again tho, that was long ago
Framedragger: (oh oh, and also trying out masscan (the first-stage scanner, i.e. the one which sends TCP SYNs) with maybe 30-100k packets per second stable))
mircea_popescu: if you do it for say 10 seconds, well doh, they allow it.
Framedragger will consider testing it. would be useful knowledge, i.e. OVH *is* cost effective for not-super-important "lower grade hardware ok" deployments
Framedragger: certainly. (also while on topic, large part of tor relay network. "decentralization!!!")
mircea_popescu: this is a fucking issue ffs. if the world worked like FOSS ~pretends it worked~ then we'd have LIKE HALF A DOZEN ssh protocol definitions ; which'd still interoperate ; and from hundreds to just one implementations of each of those. by distinct people in distinct teams.
mircea_popescu: irl, there's ssh 2.0 and ssh 2. 0 ; and ~one implementation, by a known-bad team.
mircea_popescu: what fucking foss. there is no foss. microsoft is the natural structure of ustards and everyone taking after them ; which is to see in a hurry to see results and in no particular mood to examine the quality thereof.
Framedragger: in unrelated newz, while installing an ubuntu package,
Framedragger: > 173 new root certificates were added to your trust store.
mircea_popescu: the third most commonly seen ssh protocol is a misspelling of the most common one pushed out by mistake years ago!
mircea_popescu: Framedragger lol but you get free stuff for your store!
Framedragger: i'm actually pissed, which just means that i was too optimistic about ubuntu. *i was installing a simple image editor*
Framedragger: wait i'm checking. there's a chinese root authority there... maybe package name denoted something else... still, who in their right mind?...
mircea_popescu: ftr it's /usr/share/ca-certificates ; and i got like... 7
Framedragger: `sudo apt-get install pinta` << is what i did. default ubuntu repos, default ubuntu install fwiw.
Framedragger: k@burokas:/usr/share/ca-certificates/mozilla$ find . | wc -l
mircea_popescu: i swear gedit is like the emacs of the art world. once you learn how to use its lisp parts you can never leave.
Framedragger: "i wanted to try something new, and now i have sharks."
mircea_popescu: do yourself a favour learn how to use gimp.scheme ; you will never look at graphics with the same eyes again.
Framedragger: apparently i'm behind on linux graphics software
mircea_popescu: actually i would propose it's a very fine way if not the best way to learn lisp.
mircea_popescu: not only does it mirror how we learned programming as kids (i did circles in a for loop in basic, obtained a nice worm guy!) but it gives an immediacy to lisping absent ANYWHERE else.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: literally, for the cost of installing gimp you get what ammounts to a visual repl.
☟︎ Framedragger: mircea_popescu: the 20M or so servers which responded to TCP SYNs sent to port 22. however, out of those, about 5M (or however many) did not respond to ssh handshakes, hence the lower number in the banners and phuctor payloads.
Framedragger: i guess one should standardise terms here. the larger number corresponds to "something's running there" servers, found via 1st scan phase. the lower 15M number corresponds to "actually speaks ssh protocol" servers, found via 2nd (ssh-keyscan) scan phase.
Framedragger: i would avoid inducing all of this confusion if i wrote all of this shit up in place - mea culpa. will be done eventually.
mircea_popescu: no big deal, it'd be confusing if we didn't know what this is.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:47 mircea_popescu: literally, for the cost of installing gimp you get what ammounts to a visual repl.
mircea_popescu: can be your first blog post! "here's me trying gimp repl"
Framedragger: "adventures in procedural cock drawing, vol 1"
Framedragger: hey that vc dude apparently likes to call everything cocks, and it's working out for him
mircea_popescu: incidentally, speaking of nothing in particular, everyone heard of carlos ghosn ? quite the fellow.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: fortune "gave him" some "best in business ~OUTSIDE OF US~" title, in typical byzantine style of "our nose's so upturned if it rains we drown" ; but then both gm and ford begged him to take them on (and he didn't. why didn't he ? is it because no great again possible in the us according to the people who specialize in great agains ?)
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the greatest skill in the world isn't to you know, get named head of michelin south america reporting directly to francois michelin and then turn it around in a coupla years.
mircea_popescu: the greatest skill is to turn down byzantine crap a la gm or ford. "oh great opportunity". heh, for THEM, maybe. they want to suck your juju, to extend their lifespan for a few short extra weeks WITHOUT CHANGING substantially. that's the fucking problem.
mircea_popescu: never take on a slave who's not aware she's abject refuse.
Framedragger: "In the first year of the Nissan Revival Plan, Nissan's consolidated net profit after tax climbed to $2.7 billion for fiscal year 2000, from a consolidated net loss of $6.46 billion in the previous year. Twelve months into his three-year turnaround plan, Nissan had returned to profitability, and within three years it was one of the industry's most profitable auto makers, with
Framedragger: operating margins consistently above 9%—more than twice the industry average." << wow
Framedragger: gotta love the empire's press and resulting ignorance
mircea_popescu: meanwhile they give professional company sinkers credit. carly fiorina, this tracy lorde of us business, singlehandedly destroyed two functional companies.
mircea_popescu doesn't even HAVE mozilla directory in ca-certs because wtf.
Framedragger: well there's no cert *outside* mozilla dir. maybe it's the ubuntu's organized. fresh install, don't ask...
Framedragger: mircea_popescu, what do you have in cert list if you don't mind me asking?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:47 mircea_popescu: not only does it mirror how we learned programming as kids (i did circles in a for loop in basic, obtained a nice worm guy!) but it gives an immediacy to lisping absent ANYWHERE else.
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger there's a lot of interesting stuff at the "western world" - japan interface. japan being, of course, the only non-european industrialised country. but it doesn't stop there - when the whole socialist world went up in flames in the 20s, japan was doing absolutely fine ; even made a bundle speculating the loser's currencies.
mircea_popescu: he was wrong on one point, re the "political suicide". not that the niggers aren't PRETENDING of course, but their pretense aside my credit's evidently better than clinton's.
mircea_popescu: so far it was political suicide - for her ; not for me.
mircea_popescu: on which note i should wish to muchly encourage the ~competent~ youth to not fear "suicide" of this nature. it's a control artefact implanted by the socialist motherhood for their detriment, a sort of imaginary pain box of the bene gesserit. there's no reason to even HAVE a "group of women who don't fuck" as a political entity, let alone ridoinculous imaginary boxes.
mircea_popescu: japan got buldozed chiefly because of the utterly immoral attitude of thinking people at the time.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: who, incidentally, mostly all figured out what a horrible sin it was to deliver the socialists the bomb.
mircea_popescu: except, in typical "i'm a thinker not a doer" puppy style, figured out after.
mircea_popescu: "i just want to" i get it, i get it. it's stupid and disastrous.
mircea_popescu: (guy who correctly identified us nuclear programme in 1939)
Framedragger: "It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter."
Framedragger: (it may however be noted that lacking material wealth, the extreme case of the above appears to be gabriel_laddel (
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1570190); and i *do* prefer to have a friggin' mailing address; and there are places to work which do not do heaven-important things, but are not microshit, either; i.e., there's a spectrum.)
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 22:00 gabriel_laddel: Framedragger: fuck participating in the usg web / github / CC economy etc.
Framedragger: (that being said, /me considers working part-time in the future to come, and working more on personal/worthy projects on the side. i don't know how asciilifeform is tmsr-productive while doing other stuff full-time - maybe i should go on a modafinil diet heh)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at least they're coherent, "anti-missile shield is not a nuclear weapon". sure it isn't.
Framedragger: i agree, and there is the whole utilitarian framework to be considered in specific instances, such as, "make bloodmoney now, to be invested for quantifiably more good later", etc.; still, it's a nuanced thing...
mircea_popescu: still chasing perpetual youth up there in the tower of dreamsong huh.
a111: Logged on 2015-03-20 04:11 asciilifeform: no prizes for guessing how much use came of this.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: that subdomian forces
https on traffic, was originally intended for 'reddit gold' (sic) users, but is available to all nowandgodwhydoiknowthis
mircea_popescu: (and in the list of "great western pravda" achievements : japan requested uranium oxide from germany (the great blessings of shinto - japan has no fucking resources of any kind), who shipped it via sub, except the sub surrendered once germany surrendered. and the us agitprop claimed it was... "catalyst for use in the production of synthetic methanol for aviation fuel". because totally, the zeros flew on methanol. (uranium dio
mircea_popescu: xide can work as redox catalyst, can oxidize methane).)
a111: Logged on 2016-05-31 01:17 asciilifeform: there is, in archive, a letter from general groves to truman stating, plainly, that there will not be REMOTELY enough U for bomb.
mircea_popescu: for the same money, pornstar + biofermenter == electricity enough for some microseconds of porn watching
mircea_popescu: anyway, all this is becoming ever more interesting as the great again summoning will probably imply something that to the japanese will seem like us unreliability creating a disparity with china wrt nukes.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 06:24 trinque: in other python 2 was already shit... all([]) -> True yet any([]) -> False
phf: surprisingly! fwiw at moscow state evening math school you didn't start with programming. for a couple of years the classes were physics, math and boolean logic. programming in C with frbrgeorge was considered an advanced class and the only ~actual touching of computer~ class
mircea_popescu: i don't teach math by computer either. it's like teaching cooking by washing socks.
mircea_popescu: either functional analysis or set theory are sound basis for mathematical study, rather than applied algorithmics or w/e you'd call it.
thestringpuller: i thought most engineering schools wouldn't allow you to use calculators for math classes? We weren't allowed to use anything but our brains for all Math even DiffEq. I think statistics was the only class where there was an exception.
Framedragger: (fwiw UK unis appear to decently cover basics of ZF set theory in CS classes, too, so at least there's that)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the point is, what do you build the discipline ~around~. it's a linguistic choice, of the level of "we'll write this in basic or php".
mircea_popescu: math ~in terms of~ set theory ; or functionals (as the math thing, not as the cs thing) ; as opposed to computering.
Framedragger wonders how "let's axiomatize from set theory, frege/russell style" would go for 1st year students tho :p
mircea_popescu: splendidly, if you don't expect most to make it to 2nd year.
mircea_popescu: (also you're not held to be more rigorous than the attendance supports, irl)
BingoBoingo thinking about building new, proper editor's desk in late Q1 or Q2 next year. Debating between oak, structural grade "southern yellow pine", and mixed wood
BingoBoingo: But heavy, so harder to pick up and beat intruders with
BingoBoingo also would consider hickory if it can be sourced
phf: dropbox is finally discontinuing public folder. "we’ve built even better ways for you to share securely and work together with your team." what a load of shit. literally the best feature they had was unmediated ~/pub/. the "better ways" they are referring to is a web 2.0 style "USE DROPBOX CLIENT (or click here to download directly like some kind of loser)"
shinohai: phf is the nifty dragon you put between log schism still there?
BingoBoingo atm leaning towards mixed wood. Perhaps a walnut top and Douglas fir (maximally pink boards) structral components.
phf: mircea_popescu: kind of like a transparent rsync to a shared folder, with ~/public linked to public web url
phf: shinohai: of course!
shinohai can't seem to find dragon, checks dates
phf: ohno i wonder if i broke it
mircea_popescu: speaking of which ben_vulpes : how would you feel about adding a rsync-like interface for wotpaste through rsa sessions ?
☟︎ shinohai: I spoke to him about that too actually xD
a111: Logged on 2016-03-28 13:11 mircea_popescu: upon consideration, i see no reason to continue supporting or otherwise encourage kakobrekla's bizarre worldview. on the contrary, i view further involvement with the nonsense as considerable moral hazard, and a miserable thing to do altogether.
shinohai: weird, my browser didn't render it
phf: shinohai: is it still broken? it's possible that hr background is not portable..
shinohai: I do now, my img block was on ;p
mircea_popescu: "dear abby - i noticed today that while wearing my chastity belt, i can't seem to have sexual intercourse. please advise."
jhvh1: shinohai: No GeoIP information found for 162.243.124.182
mircea_popescu: the problem comes back to the very naive christian notions of the moral value of the void.
phf: trinque: i don't get it
trinque also now digesting mp's statement
trinque: from where I sit one can't ask a question of nothing regarding properties nothing doesn't have.
trinque: were ther a distinction between nil and false, I would expect (and) -> nil (and f) -> f
mircea_popescu: trinque aha, that lulzy "nature abhors a vacuum" theory hottie is shown demonstrating for yul brenner's "children" comes from right here.
phf: trinque: you're very confused
☟︎ Framedragger: re. asking questions involving properties which do not exist, hah this is something that russell was actually battling with. what is the truth-value of the statement "the present king of france is bold"? some would say it does not have a value (because the term "present king of france" does not have a referent); russell would say "false".
trinque: so then, I just said "is every element in this set true" and got a true on the empty set.
Framedragger: (ruseell's theory of definite descriptions says "yes", other frameworks say "not necessarily")
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if your semantics allows for it. whether they do or don't is not the same as the truth-value BEING nil however.
mircea_popescu: i know it's commonly taught as equivalent, but saying "x doesn't have an y" is not the same as saying "x's y is nil"
trinque: is this a "the void has all properties" thing ?
Framedragger: note, strawson, frege would say that the king of france *expression* fails to provide a *(logical) proposition*. i.e., it does not have one. imho this is a valid thought, i.e. the matter is not 100% clear.
mircea_popescu: note however that many languages (which aren't english) allow purely constructive usage ; such as adjectival forms constructed from nouns, the noun of a verb and the verb of a noun and so following. depending on semantics bagumpa is blerpy could well have a truth value - if say your definition of is includes an equivalency class for all elements starting with the same letter.
Framedragger would like to carry on with phi of lang but will resume later, need to move self body
mircea_popescu: trinque perhaps the cheapest way to visualise the difference between nil and falsehood is to contrast "ex nihilo nihil" with the value table for false-implication.
trinque: so how do we get across the bridge from "the empty set has no members" to "every member of the empty set had blue hair" being true?
mircea_popescu: all sentences spring from a false ; but nothing springs from the nil.
trinque: I understand the difference, was saying lisp *should* have a separate false.
trinque: nil is used everywhere to mean false, not say "this question can't be answered"
mircea_popescu: well part of the problem is that nil can't be used to mean anything other than nil./
Framedragger: (imho lisp's use of nil as false *is* incorrect, even if you disagree with "every member of the empty set had blue hair" having to be true. it *is* an unholy confusion, falsehood != nil.)
mircea_popescu: as to the blue hair issue : if you can't produce a member which has non-blue hair, the proposition stands ; and if i can prove you can't (which i prove by showing there's no elements in the null set) then the proposition evaluates to true.
☟︎ trinque: proceeding from falsification I can understand.
Framedragger: suddenly karl popper in set theory? :O *suspicious*
Framedragger: that's all well and good when you can enumerate countable set elements exhaustively / have firm grasp of a term's extension, but what if you don't - any predicate stands true until shown otherwise?
trinque: it feels practically wrong while logical
Framedragger: maybe there could be an empirical-tmsr-set-theory thing :) but for logical analysis, that's weird imo. for one, ontological arguments in regards to god's existence may gain more grounds.
trinque: if one proceeds from there the definition of truth gets pretty squashy
mircea_popescu: Framedragger a proposition ~stands~ until falsified. and is true once it can be showed it can't be false.
mircea_popescu: if i were to endeavour to prove all primenumbers larger than 2 are odd, you'd count yourself satisfied if i showed a number that's prime and larger than 2 can not exist, yes ?
phf: you're not asking for falsehood, when you're asking for nil-ness, so semantic confusion that arises from using same symbol for both concepts is almost always a theoretical problem. and when it's not, like in other situations of semantic ambiguity you can choose to be more precise. luckily people who like to solve theoretical problems of thinking-computing mismatch have moved away from lisp and are doing haskell now
mircea_popescu: the proposition "four is a prime number" doesn't stand, because a factor is known ; the proposition "this and this rsa key is made of two primes" stands, but is not known to be true.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the problem generally is that "all things" have an ontology and a gnoseology, which is separate and so trivially separable even the greeks were privy to it (hence plato's ideal objects) ; except for the void, which is AT THE SAME TIME the absence of ontology and the plenarity of gnoseology. which is to say, the same "thing" at the same time doesn't exist (ie, as nil) and implies everything (ie, as "false").
mircea_popescu: this duality then makes it a fine candidate for a "prime mover", which bothered the scholastics immensely, because they, much like the scholastics-lite version of smith in the us say, wanted to intercede their own agent in there, so he could do things and therefore their derpitude could matter.
phf: i just found this thing, and this should've been that, and that should've been the other, va a fare in culo! :E
mircea_popescu: fortunately, the people who like to solve theoretical problems of though/action mismatch moved on from logic and are doing "policy" nao.
trinque should bitch about programming moar often; what a ride
mircea_popescu: anyway. for completeness let it be stated that perceived problems of thought-computing mismatch are thoroughly a matter of perception, and in principle can not be fixed (other than fixing the perception). it's the fundamental problem of "ai", as derided often enough here (see the "what if you name the procedures something other than "understanding" etc ; see also chomski's attacks on "ai" centered on the constructed repeating
mircea_popescu: ((and mp was never as unimpressed with chomski as he was when the guy tried to deploy a cantor proof lite without saying so.))
mircea_popescu: i still love the captatio of that sort of guy. it always reduces to "here we show this is controversial". as if THIS has some sort of merit or value.
Framedragger: that's swell guys but a bit of a non sequitur neh. that being said, yea "if you try to formalize fleshworld, you're gonna have a bad time" :)
Framedragger: (inb4 mp quotes last sentence from tractatus logico philosophicus) :D
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 16:58 phf: trinque: you're very confused
trinque: what was never volunteered in the thread is the practical usefulness of the behavior as seen in the programming language mentioned
trinque: "If everyone agrees to fire the nukes, fire them."
trinque: then your list of everybody was empty because squashy world. then nukes fire.
Framedragger agrees. (but fwiw i don't think it's legit even in terms of logical analysis, even before practical considerations)
phf: oh, shit, we've got a reddit consensus over here
☟︎ mircea_popescu: kinda fine illustration of why consensus can never be a sound basis for action
mircea_popescu: "the avoidance of suffering can never be a point of policy, seeing how the simplest solution is immediate mass extermination." AND "consensus can never be the basis of action because the null set always agrees."
trinque: "all" in python is a control structure around a loop, not a term in a boolean statement
trinque: !!v F9F77A40226329ADB52E978F9C046D702962EFA3BDBA76168CCA8DA883792E32
Framedragger: wtf is this shit anyway. even if it's a logical operator, and then, look: it's an AND underneath. and you all know the very-noncontroversial truth-table for AND. true iff for every member, predicate applies. NOT vice-versa falsification goofyness.
trinque: it's ok, guy can only type so much with one hand on keyboard.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what's the definition of every for null set ?
scriba: Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: notice, the "all" in python takes a predicate
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not here to defend extant programing language design choices.
mircea_popescu: but i shall discuss logic with you, if you do not appease us.
trinque appreciated the discussion, learned.
mircea_popescu: i think it's a fabulous testament on the very matters at hand that the ~only guy who has a very introspective, quiet, slow and complete approach to thinking/speaking got derated for emotionals.
Framedragger: hey i thought trinque unrating phf was a stupid reactionary thing. don't use this as a red herring.
Framedragger: anyway, i agree that there is a way to construct an "every" so that given a null set, it spits out true. however, "every" of what? usually there's a predicate, and then the way you'd test "every" with a predicate is that you run that predicate on every element encountered. and you test that it *obtains*, not that it *does not obtain*.
Framedragger: but then if you want to entertain the latter "check if any *does not obtain*", you will have a "empty set if holder of *all* properties"
Framedragger: ( and amusingly under classical ontological argument, empty set will be god :D )
mircea_popescu: also practical, at that. god can stay god for as long as gets in no one's way.
Framedragger: *internal framedragger thought process*. "ok, so, maybe mp is empty set.. and he wants to be god.. AHH" :D
BingoBoingo: !!v F82354639AF453DA437A70D37194DEF5F5BB2B10AECAC839DC5A64AD0793FA9E
deedbot: BingoBoingo rated phf 2 << Kiln dried, solid work wrapping Republican proceedings with webs
phf: i usually just switch context when stupid shit is said, but this time i politely pointed it out, which tbh produced an opposite effect of what i expected. in polite circles when somebody goes as far as to point out that somebody is confused, it's an invitation for further introspection, not to loudly double down.
BingoBoingo: trinque is Texan where confused is a synonym for sucking cocks. It's a cultural soft spot.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 17:13 mircea_popescu: as to the blue hair issue : if you can't produce a member which has non-blue hair, the proposition stands ; and if i can prove you can't (which i prove by showing there's no elements in the null set) then the proposition evaluates to true.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 18:00 mircea_popescu: you can't test for all properties.
Framedragger: well, okay, i'm not sure. but all predicates obtain in null set.
Framedragger: i don't know how a logician can entertain the latter. well, many things can be entertained, but it's not exactly.. how shall i put it.. ontologically economic?
trinque: it wasn't reactionary at all. now all my ratings of phf are 10.
mircea_popescu: dude what are you on about. ontological economy of the null set ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Nah, I just forgot to ever rate phf for his work.
mircea_popescu: i really appreciate though that this topic can still get the blood going. you should see what it did to the monks of 1016.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: just to clarify so you don't think i'm trying to fuck around, i mean that all predicates would be true under null set. i don't find that to be a good idea. that's all
mircea_popescu: there's an ancient quote about the wine vessel aleph of a party, with 3+ being the breaking of furniture
mircea_popescu: considerations of null set clearly are better than wine.
BingoBoingo: Framedragger: Then don't linger in any null sets?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger you don't so far find it to be an idea altogether, as best it can be determined.
Framedragger: here's a compressed internal model: "mircea_popescu wants truth-conditions of predicates in set theory to abide by a kind of falsification-based criterion."
mircea_popescu: i just pointed out the method works ; didn't say it's the only approach.
Framedragger: (and just for the record, i'm interpreting any remarks by anyone here charitably, assuming no snide, and trying to be snide'y myself.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this distinction stands at the very root of naive notions of "i'm creative" vs "i'm good with math"
Framedragger: because first of all these are not the same thing. we would first have to introduce, say (as an example), peano arithmetic atop set theory, and go from there. "multiplication" is a diff beast. why not division? etc etc.
mircea_popescu: it's not just that computing isn't thought ; what happens in the brain is also not reason. as far as the logic is concerned things may be whatever they are, but in the objective development of the subject there's an i-ontology and a world-ontology. this disjunction is or is not resolved in time ; but from the subjective development it was never a problem in the first place.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger we need no such thing, "0" means the same in the language of the commutative ring R as "nill" means in the natural language above.
mircea_popescu: it's just whether one is inclined to allocate either both of these domains to i-ontology, or just one of them.
Framedragger: waitwait, algebra, okay [i'm trying to actually follow]
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: as regards that particular point, you are probably right. but what do you mean by "i-ontology"? the latter becomes wibbly-wobbly
Framedragger: seriously, i'll write an mp-bot with markov model to rebuke any arguments people throw at me. i'll reap ca$h.
mircea_popescu: i mean there's a set of expectations (this is what an ontology, ie, list of items and predicates, always is) for the self ; and ANOTHER one for the world.
mircea_popescu: what some psychologists then turn around and measure as "integration". but in any case, it's trivially evident that ~the world~ may be good or bad, but not the subject. observable at all scales, from the freeranged girlfriend of your choice to the us propaganda discussing aleppo/mosul.
☟︎ Framedragger: okay. can you give an example? "for the self" is too continental-philosophy ;)
mircea_popescu: yes. derps at dept of state GENUINELY BELIEVE that they "did what they had to" in mosul and the russians are being evil criminals in aleppo.
mircea_popescu: if girl a sees girl b drop a vase girl a thinks girl b is clumsy ; if girl a sees girl a drop the same vase girl a tihnks the vase is slippery.
☟︎☟︎ Framedragger: mircea_popescu: re. "integration", heh have you by any chance read any of jean piaget? iirc he did quite a bit of "logical system development in children, integration" etc. may be a curious read.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you may be surprised by that rocket thing ; iirc i posted a guy attached to a car.
mircea_popescu: in any case - mental models of logic, as with mental models of anything found in nature -, are approximations. the same mechanism that allows a guy to isolate 0* from null.predicate allows one all sorts of psycho-imunological responses that are rather requisite to maintain the subjective notion of the self ~in a format comprehensible to itself~!
☟︎ mircea_popescu: that's the major restriction, and the deep source of alf's comment above
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 17:35 asciilifeform: one problem that purveyors of sad-schmuck 'maths' chronically suffer from is the expectation that a consistent model has to mesh with naive child's conception of 'N apples' arithmetic.
trinque: I did not have a crisis of self over learning the reasoning behind the current design of WoT db.
trinque: if we're doing "where I come from", "shut up about your feelings regarding the person and get to the meat", was it.
trinque appreciates the mircea_popescu whallopings because they are immensely educative.
BingoBoingo: Gold: "A Feminist World"—an future energy company, the Feminist Alternative Potash Corporation, wishes to mine for salts in the WIPP site. Although the team comes across the warning signs, once it becomes clear that they were written by a group consisting of mostly older white men, they dismiss them."
BingoBoingo: ^ From DEO Report on nuclear waste security
BingoBoingo: From a group hypothesizing ways a nuclear waste site could be breached in the future.
mircea_popescu: oh i see, the old "chucka hunter-gatherer party warms self on rtg innards"
BingoBoingo: Other scenarios include compulsively drilling robots, and Roger Verian treasure seekers.
BingoBoingo: Final possibility is in 10,000 years theme park erected on site and site not having been breeched is a sucess.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: as in, nuclear waste storage is a propped-up issue/narrative? interesting
Framedragger: ahh. i guess in the same vein, "stop what you're doing iran because it's weapons, and wrong"
mircea_popescu: tis not so plain an' simple as all that alfie. notwithstanding that yeah, prolly breeder reactors are going to take over as we run out of space to put the waste ; nevertheless they're more expensive an' complicated and etc. simply larger bar.
mircea_popescu: current used types are yet cheaper ; mostly because uranium turned out to be more plentiful than anyone realised in the 50s, and because the cost of waste storage is not properly accounted.
mircea_popescu: that 2nd lobe will change the economics, but in decades from now.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the problem of very long lived actinides (like iodine 129) is certain to eventually drive burner designs. even if they're run as two separate installatiosn as currently the case for some insane reason (really, germany burns up uranium in light water reactor, then ships the leftover by train to france to be reburned in a special burner. could have done all in one place but hey.).
mircea_popescu: anyway. afaik both russia and japan still run significant (ie gigawatt) breeder designs
BingoBoingo: Oh, the joys of living in small town land. In anticipation of freezing rain, the "city" sprinkled the good BLUE ice melt on hills.
mod6: that ice-rain stuff is the worst.
mod6: you like everything being coated in ice? it's rare here, since it just usually snows, but when it does, power outage everywhere.
mircea_popescu: yeah it can be brutal. had my patio furniture turned to sculptures once ; it looked damn pretty but everything was soldered in place.
mod6: yeh, it is very pretty actually. but just awful beyond that factor. haha.
BingoBoingo: It's not enjoyable, but it is normal. Far from being "the worst"
BingoBoingo: The summertime plague of "100 and 100" is worse by far.
trinque: the peace of nobody else being outside is - at least for a city dweller - lovely. no such respite in the south.
BingoBoingo: Aha, trinque gets it. The outdoor null set!
trinque: lol. see this thing gets clearer and clearer.
BingoBoingo: Nah, eventually the ice cracks, refreezes, and gets cloudy.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: carlos ghosn is understandably well known in the auto industry. he's a true lebzilianenchman (lebanese-brazilian-frenchman), meaning he has a strong aesthetic sense but he's also quite the fierce deal-maker. only in the last 5 years has akio toyoda risen to ghosn's level as an overall strategist, product developer, and brand manager. alan mullaly and martin winterkorn were the only other two
pete_dushenski: of that same visionary calibre, but these latter two stepped down in the last couple of years (from ford and vw, respectively). i'm not persuaded that the rest of the lot, even say sergio marchionne, are anything more than bankruptcy artists slithering from swindle to swindle.
pete_dushenski: in addition to his dual-ceo jobs at renault and nissan, ghosn also recently took over managing the fumbling mitsubishi, of which his alliance now owns a third.
pete_dushenski was always one of those weird 'car guys' who fancied the machinations of the industry more than the greasy bits.
mircea_popescu: trabant would actually be a great brand under which to roll up all the vc/sv "revolutionary tech"
pete_dushenski sees that avtovaz makes lada, scolds himself for ignorance.
pete_dushenski: anyways, looks like ukrainians, peruvians, chileans and bolivians can buy new lada. even republic of south ossetia!!! but not can, usa, arg, etc.
pete_dushenski: eh bull. you've got $8000 hyundai and mitsu shitboxen.
pete_dushenski: so not quite $5k dacia logan, admittedly, or tata nano, but ustards literally pay less for cars than anywhere else in the world accounting for currency.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 16:37 mircea_popescu: speaking of which ben_vulpes : how would you feel about adding a rsync-like interface for wotpaste through rsa sessions ?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: you've heard of car dealerships ? they're like computer stores, except for cars.
phf: cheapest i found was 18k for some of the kia models
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i'm not altogether certain how it'd work, but basically i'd like it if mimisbrunnr allowed me to buy storage on wotpaste. i could pay from trinque 's deedbot once it's done ; and i should be able to buy by the gb of storage or by the tb of traffic.
mircea_popescu: basically all you have to get together is a rsync-like and an elastic store/web infrastructure.
ben_vulpes: "rsync-like" has rather a few assumptions baked in
mircea_popescu: well evidently the tmsr-rsa isn't ready, so i'm guessing ad interim a scheme like this could work
ben_vulpes: i may be thick, by 'rsync-like' implies to me some amount of shell access for l*
pete_dushenski: phf: asciilifeform my research says that the nissan micra less than cad$10k, which is about $usd7.5, but sadly for you both, our good friend carlos ghosn saw fit not to sell it to you lot. sfyl ?
mircea_popescu: 1. user says !%cred ; 2. mimisbrunnr replies with link to rsa-encrypted user/pass/url combination for, eg, a ftp session ; 3. if i share the url, i share the url, with whoever i want ; 4. you meter and bill ; 5. !%destroy kills it
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: there's also this idea, prevalent and very much the norm in car industry, of 'dealer may sell for less'.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ideally 4 works like, billed on 5 or else when X qty of btc is due, say 0.1 or w/e.
ben_vulpes: why no more top-row bot trigger combinations?
a111: Logged on 2016-02-02 15:53 ascii_butugychag: so there's a proggy i've been testin'
BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> eh bull. you've got $8000 hyundai and mitsu shitboxen. << Maybe in Double Norte Americano, but in Single Norte Americano those left in the 1990's
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: o i know, i just thought we gave it out.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: a man with two hands upon the kb will more easily type !)
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: don't you hold shift with the left?!
a111: Logged on 2016-09-14 18:57 lobbes: Aight. I'll set lobbesbot to !Q
mircea_popescu: nope. when typing commands i use the right for the right shift, the fuck finger for ! and the index for whatever else.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: AHA, these things pete_dushenski is raving about are stricly Canadian thing.
ben_vulpes: and you two are strictly talking about irc interfaces?
mircea_popescu: actually on meditation i almost never use left shift. cuz my left thumb is on ctrl/macro
ben_vulpes has a whole wad of key chords, irc a vanishingly small fraction
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes well no, i get a ftp and a wwb for the trouble.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: it's mostly that we just get shittier models here, eg. micra. but obv. with weaker currency we pay more for same model. this is thankfully compensated by being richer in btc/localfiat terms.
ben_vulpes: control, escape, meta these are all swappable between hands on my setup
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Anyways the solution to the "wheels for alf" problem is he needs three 1990's Lexus IS 300's from which to construct a one superior example.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> eh bull. you've got $8000 hyundai and mitsu shitboxen. << Maybe in Double Norte Americano, but in Single Norte Americano those left in the 1990's << is mexico null norte americano in bb's paradigm ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Then why seeking 8k new auto
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Mexico is Median Americano
ben_vulpes: of the rsync-alike? somewhat. the fucksticks, i do not see.
mircea_popescu: gotta be moar patriotic, alf. buy gm, help the great again along.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Just get two more identical cars for parts!!!
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: anyways, don't get hung up on initial capital outlay, even if you're thinking of financing. tco (total cost of ownership) is the name of the game. ask ben_vulpes.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes eh, the command codes are inconsequential. i mean the rsync.
trinque actually in the market for new vehicle as of yesterday.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Then assemble the best of the parts into best possible car sooner?
trinque: vw wagon finally gave up the timing chain ghost, also exhaust blew into coolant system
trinque: it was just old as shit and drove in too many different climates
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: interesting idea, i'll chew on it
BingoBoingo: How much is one of those garage sized "self storage" things go for around your parts?
pete_dushenski: trinque: what has two thumbs and loves the car shopping for other people game ? this guy!
trinque seriously contemplating used 4runner with low mileage
trinque: driving up mountains / on beaches > *
BingoBoingo: trinque: Just break down and get 5 Saturn L-series
mircea_popescu: maybe in buenos aires. in wash dc 20k buys like 150 cab rides
mircea_popescu: meanwhile here, cab from city end to city end is like 20 bux
ben_vulpes: for some, there are few joys like burning petrol with friends.
trinque: if I were in an area with trains I'd go without a car for a while. wouldn't be the first time.
trinque: PDX is perhaps one of the best places for this.
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: have you tried installing eulora on a mac ?
ben_vulpes: trinque: recent 'snowpaclypse' affected me /not one whit/, as i could stroll to the train and be in city center more-or-less on domenad
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: once a very long time ago
ben_vulpes: i don't think it's quite as simple as 'brew install eulora', although it was close
trinque: ben_vulpes: this among the things I miss.
ben_vulpes: trinque: 'tis a wonder of socialist engineering
ben_vulpes: neighbor of mine was whingeing about the cost of the light rail, "o noes it'll never pay for itself" "my man, it got me to move to this neighbhorhood. give it a decade and you'll make the difference up personally with home value increase."
BingoBoingo: Car is not lemon just because it turns 13 years old. In Cuba car is still young at that age!
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: but car ~is~ lemon if 13yo ford. esp explorer
ben_vulpes looks at 04 pilot about to crack 200k outside
ben_vulpes: possibly 'lemon' if you can't get in a car and hear mid diff wobble, possibly lemon if you don't do the sale at a dealership and pay 100 for the safety inspection before purchasing, possibly lemon if all sorts of 'civilian'
BingoBoingo: If $2500 dollar car lasts 5 years averages to $500 per car/year. Would take much unexpected bullshit to make expensive.
ben_vulpes: "you know, babe, instead of a single car that cost 35K, we could have.../35k of cars/"
BingoBoingo: Put on a camper shell and you have a FUCKGOATS transporter
BingoBoingo: What die without warning? Plenty of warnings!
pete_dushenski:
http://bringatrailer.com/auctions/ << plenty of solid, well-cared-for metal for under 10k here alf. as the lots cover the continent, you can even make a road trip (blog story!) out of the adventure. also gives you a chance to play autions without playing eulora.
shinohai: Oh gawd ben_vulpes ... the trunk on those things can sleep 6!
ben_vulpes: shinohai: all the more room for cleats and helmets
ben_vulpes: why drive a minivan when you can drive an EIGHTIES CADILLAC i aska you
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: dude, walking out your front door is 'travelling to some shithole'. and no one will bring new car to you! so might as well live a little. remember how fun chicago was ? or ba ?
ben_vulpes has several hondas, they are precisely this.
trinque wonders if after USocalypse, he too will think everything is terrible.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: toyota then. lexus if you sell a million fuckgoats.
trinque: "teh yankees have always produced plastic blue jeans"
trinque: the shit works both ways y'see!
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: well, tbf, you put all your rust ~in your house~ with all those old pdps and alphas. at least we put ours in garages.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: capital equipment is not for 'fun'
BingoBoingo: What about STFU buy used screams rich folk? If 2005-later cars suck the solution is buy older!
ben_vulpes: "this dress took me thirty minutes and ten years to make"
ben_vulpes: fwiw, i find car-swearing-time doubles as excellent design/thinking time.
pete_dushenski: "Uber relies on location services to ensure safe and accurate rides. In this latest version of the app, you’ll now be asked to allow location information collection from the time you request a ride through up to five minutes after it ends. This helps identify better pickup and dropoff points and helps customer service if you ever need to contact us about a trip. You’ll always be in control over what
pete_dushenski: location information is shared and can adjust this at any time in your device settings." << from latest version update. one wonders, why only 5 minutes ? why not perma-on ? perhaps "coming soon" (™). also, this is alf's alterna-car! THIS!!!1
ben_vulpes: with the new monstrosity abutting the property line next door, i think i've finally bumped carport up on the list of shit to build
ben_vulpes: omg may i relate how bad a job next door is doing
ben_vulpes: so the vinyl, stamped-with-wood-grain siding showed up and was applied to the house
ben_vulpes: and maybe 2 boards out of the whole 150' house length per row are matched at the ends
ben_vulpes: which is particularly amusing, as this stamped material is designed to line up perfectly for the whole run
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: i've generally had very positive experiences with it. 95% excellent drivers. 75% decent cars. proper taxi flips those two figures but also costs 20% more and wait times are unreliable.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> you're still paying ~= what new auto costs, just more slowly, painfully << Nah at some point you just break up with car and get new $2500 car for another few years.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Problem is after stamped plastic leaves factory
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: when booting anode in 'solipsistic test network' mode with gen=1 and genproclimit=some reasonable fraction of local cores, i should see a few cores go to 100% utilization immediately, no?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: In that case you want a 90s honda civic or 90s lexus 300
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'getinfo' is telling me '0 hashes per sec', which is troubling
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Max cost of brake work on such a vehicle tops out at ~900 to ~1200 to replace entire "make car stop" system.
pete_dushenski: as someone who just oversaw ownership of early 2000s lexus is300 that put on 40k km in a year, i'm not sure i'd recommend it unless you're pretty handy. not hard to work on, but parts aren't super cheap, it's a bit dicey in the winter, it's a ~very~ firm ride, and it's soooo hard on consumables (gas and oil).
BingoBoingo: new pads, calipers, rotors, drums, cylinders...
BingoBoingo: Oh, I thought you meant "will car stop when I press pedal" misread
BingoBoingo: And we are not talking 80s merc motors unless pete_dushenski, we are talking 90s honda motors of which there are LEGION!
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Rebuilt and remanufactered ones
BingoBoingo: It's Honda, quintessential "idiot proof" car
BingoBoingo: But more expensive ones because loan keeps "throw it away and replace" from being option
ben_vulpes: a recently compiled bitcoin node, running in its own directory, booted as `LC_ALL=C ./bitcoin -datadir=<local_data_directory> -debug -printtoconsole -gen'
ben_vulpes: getgenerate returns true, but fGenerateBitcoins is 0 at boot
ben_vulpes: first hundred and seventy only paid out to satoshi iirc.
ben_vulpes will read miner source for the site of this brilliance
ben_vulpes: miner should work just fine without a tx in mempool wtf
BingoBoingo: latest rental box has crossed 300,000 in sync!
BingoBoingo: sync not being done for any great technical reason other than to remind self I'm getting old.