a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 23:51 mircea_popescu: not what i meant. more like "no shell()". no leaving-frame, how shall we put it
mircea_popescu: the most elegant approach to deal with correctness, or acceptability w/e you state it. "there is no such thing"
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 23:42 mircea_popescu: "Why exactly does a browser need to ship with any preconceived notions of how to decode video and graphics? Or audio, or text, for that matter?" << fundamentally, because we don't want to permit it to run code.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 23:44 asciilifeform: 'p' stack machine ( to be featured in last episode of ffa series ) is a demo of sane ( e.g. demonstrably-correct and bounded , yet usefully complete operator set ) code execution.
ben_vulpes: phf, asciilifeform do you know anything about "Wukix" the lisp system author(s)?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-03 04:15 ben_vulpes: phf, asciilifeform: any experience with "mocl"?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-03 05:33 ben_vulpes: i am likely going to buy a license because what, i pay half that per year per staff member just to derp on ios shits with some modicum less of friction
ben_vulpes: other things vastly more important and costly
ben_vulpes: today i am more curious to know if 'wukix' has any sort of wreckerage fame
ben_vulpes: googlephone too nominally; 'cross platform'!!!1
ben_vulpes: dunno what i'd least prefer soiling myself with; crap ass cl wrapper around java or...java
mircea_popescu remembers the good old days when berbery pirates stuck their filthy fingers up maidens' snatches snatched on the seas to probe for joolry.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 22:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking strictly of items known to actually work. ( at one time trinque posted a list of what built, and what did not, on his g5 ppc. iirc . trinque ? )
mircea_popescu opts not to ask "on arbitrary iron or on selected iron ?"
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 12649.92, vol: 15099.62688961 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 12639.0, vol: 63644.53889962 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 12754.4, vol: 4211.65584461 | Volume-weighted last average: 12646.8465019
RagnarDanneskjol: mircea_popescu I believe 2 or 3 ladies will be available to interview by this weekend. please standby. I'll just point them to the great hall [here] unless you want them elsewhere
☟︎ BingoBoingo: So far the shower at the office has hot water.
BingoBoingo: Have seen litle nature so far. Lightening the load at coworking office to hostel size before their checkin opens. Very friendly people.
BingoBoingo: Mega mission of the day is calibrating the ear to this accent and recovering from mega ear pressure confusion
BingoBoingo: TSA did open up bag with the server and network switch helpfully leaving note.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 15:21 trinque: to date, deedbot made like 0.0002, and so what? it'll make more in the future, and it'll buy more with what it made idem
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 12:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i cannot resist to ask, where do i buy some 'arbitrary iron' ? right now i only got concrete iron
mircea_popescu: anyway, administration of all kinds would be GREATLY improved by permanently losing access to all computing.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 13:14 BingoBoingo: I have arrived
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 12:54 RagnarDanneskjol: mircea_popescu I believe 2 or 3 ladies will be available to interview by this weekend. please standby. I'll just point them to the great hall [here] unless you want them elsewhere
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 13:21 BingoBoingo: TSA did open up bag with the server and network switch helpfully leaving note.
BingoBoingo: Well, probably investigating them. Switch is still new in box unconfigured, server hasn't been more than assembled
BingoBoingo made a quick walk around the neighborhood, has to reorient to sun's new location as opposed to ye familiar old compas
diana_coman: BingoBoingo, can add picture of inspection note to the rest of "local flora&fauna" pics
BingoBoingo: I packed two. Baking a first blog post. Got few pictures en route because it turns out airports and planes are boring. Also clouds most of the flights.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I will save that for the post when I actually open the networking equipment. Right now gotta calibrate my ears to this accent
mircea_popescu: but yes, airflight ain't all it's cracked up to be. only seems a big deal before ape invents airplane.
mircea_popescu: much like marriage seems much more of an ideal state to 13yo than later on.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, re that : i don't think most people are equipped to evaluate how much it'd suck. i base this on my own experience, whereby i didn't understand what sex in tub is like before trying.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but yes, airflight ain't all it's cracked up to be. only seems a big deal before ape invents airplane. << Only really big deal besides boredom and comms blackout is barotraumo to the ears
mircea_popescu: by the time you crashland you're more or less CNCd into a ball already. just like an egg that was tumbled with rocks.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you're supposed to suck aircock the whole way, didn't the stewardess tell you ?
BingoBoingo: Well, i did forget it was a thing and underestimated how big a deal it would be until first leg of trip ended
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so did you get nam over with by your own self or was there a sidekick ?
BingoBoingo: then Republic of Texas to Panama was napping while descent started, damage done
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo incidentally, i often get ear popping IN THE CAR, getting down from fortress mp to civilisation.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: AHA, missouri hills are what I was expecting
mircea_popescu: ie, isn't a port from system with kbd-and-mouse, but actually designed / thought into the terms of a tapdevice.
hanbot: congrats BingoBoingo :)
diana_coman: mod6 or asciilifeform, can you help? I'm trying to press asciilifeform's second patch for sane-mpi and V complains that it can't find the vpatch file although it is there (and I checked the sig too and it's all fine); I'm running your V, version thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20170317.tar.gz.mod6 ; I have the following folder structure:
http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1ZwgW/?raw=true; Here's the error when I run v press verbose . mpi_second_cut.vpa
diana_coman: tch: Error! Could not find vpatch "mpi_second_cut.vpatch" ; when I run v a mpi_second_cut.vpatch I get: Error! Could not find vpatch "mpi_second_cut.vpatch"
diana_coman: but it seems to think there are no descendants on it (so v d mpi-genesis.vpatch returns empty)
BingoBoingo: No pictures of quality this time, but have located mall, mall casino, and place where sleeping
diana_coman: ok, let me try with yours too then, can't hurt
diana_coman: ftr I used mod6's vtron on ch1 of ffa and it worked perfectly fine
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, nope, I just downloaded it again today so it's the new one
diana_coman: a gpg --verify here worked perfectly fine for me too on both patches
diana_coman: anyways, will try with asciilifeform's v for now; maybe mod6 has some idea on this later
diana_coman: and I ran it : v99 --wot .wot --seals .seals patches a mpi_second_cut.vpatch
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 18:23 mircea_popescu: maybe his thing didn't eat it for some reason.
mod6: hi, looks like you've had some issues with my v : asciilifeform & diana_coman, I'll have to take a look at this later when I can. thx.
phf: asciilifeform: i had issues specifically with an older, genesis-less version. my system doesn't require antecedents to be there, but for some reason when there's only one, antecedent-less patch it gives me a 404. i've not actually investigated, since you produced a genesis since
phf: asciilifeform: something like that. my btcbase vpatch grepper is dumb (it's my own eyes, but not the brain) and it's mostly just looking for things that look like a vpatch/vdiff. i definitely didn't unpack the first post tgz
mod6: where is the de-facto mpi tarball?
mod6: it sounds to me like diana_coman was using that one.
diana_coman: basically this "sane-mpi" tar.gz: www.loper-os.org/pub/mpi/mpi-genesis.tar.gz
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just as soon as someone puts a patch on top of it, the trees will diverge and then phf can exclude the legacy one or w/e it is he does to them
mircea_popescu: so then why doesn't it press ? there's something amiss here.
BingoBoingo opting out of major decisions until getting in a full sleep in. But, Haz uruguayan numero de telefono
mircea_popescu: im guessing we're just about ready to tighten format here
mircea_popescu: aaanyway, suppose diana_coman wants to add a patch to mod6's vtron, to better error messages
mircea_popescu: (because complaining of absent-present file is no good)
mircea_popescu: atm there's bot, lam-par (terrible name), fg, mpi and ffa.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform : "Lamport Parachute (a crypto identity bootstrap solution)"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform phf pluriously said he's doing it by hand for now ; i see no problem with this. correct procedure would thereby be to ping him with items
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 19:48 asciilifeform: having to comb l0gz to find these, is becoming painful. any chance of deedbot learning to eat vpatches+sigs, trinque ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, thank you, I'll look in a minute; (had all hands full a minute here with all sorts)
mod6: alright, im about to check your new ones here. i can confirm that the original 'mpi-genesis.vpatch' (f254bedf1e3241eb9de17232b630a0614f1cc54ff9c5407d87d79174e211833bcfc0135c89b4abcab2446acd93137a8e1b0798704ad7e4d498cc52c836c82c2b) gets dropped on the floor because of the addtional timestamps.
diana_coman: I can confirm that the new genesis & the old second_cut vpatch are now at least recognised by mod6's v
mod6: now, on the other hand, yeah, i saw the second_cut vpatch link removed from loper... but I went ahead and updated my sandbox to have alf's latest & greatest mpi-genesis.
mod6: when i went to press, bzzzt.
mod6: looks like second_cut might need a re-grind.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, here it seems to barf on the ...README file?
mod6: yup, unhappy with README
diana_coman: asciilifeform, there is something I don't understand: shouldn't I be able to press the second cut now with the new genesis present?
mircea_popescu admires how the "finished" mpi managed to take a whole day of 3 people's time and shakes his head displeasedly.
diana_coman: wiped previous dir, took everything out with curl etc
diana_coman: I'll wipe again and try your v too for completeness at least
mod6: <+asciilifeform> diana_coman, mod6 , both of you appear to be suffering from mod6's barfolade-leaving vtron << wut
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 wanna genesis your vtron ? << at this rate, doesn't look like it.
mod6: Despite 2 years of development, we still arn't there yet.
trinque: genesis doesn't have to mean perfect.
mod6: I had started a new V in Ada, had to stick it in the drawer for a while. Not getting to exactly where I wanted to go (easy to read, fits in head, no perl/perlisms) with it at this time.
trinque: nobody's going to come for you with pitchforks
mod6: Anyway, the hope was that it would replace my other PoC.
trinque: ircbot's genesis features me writing CLOS like it's Java classes.
mod6: <+mod6> <+asciilifeform> diana_coman, mod6 , both of you appear to be suffering from mod6's barfolade-leaving vtron << wut << my V pukes exactly when it can.
mod6: during the press process, it finds that shas do not match the expected, and DIES.
trinque: will at some point release vpatches with sane method names. but thing works, and I'm not going to obscure history because I knew less in the past.
mod6: it can't check the expected sha of a patch BEFORE its DONE patching.
mod6: s/patch/patched file/
mod6: everytime we have this problem (note it's not the first) where we have someones vpatch with garbage in it....
mod6: then it gets re-generated
mod6: then we have to regrind stuff.
mod6: ok. i'll see what i can dig up
diana_coman: asciilifeform, mk, so no need for the tar I gather since you can easily reproduce it anyway
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> what means 'finished', it's a spoil of war artifact. << that's entirely not related to the discussion.
mircea_popescu: the larger problem is that to arrive to this conclusion, you first bitched at everyone else.
mircea_popescu: now stop doing this inane shit, it's a significant drag on resources.
mod6: fwiw, i've never even looked at this!
mircea_popescu: observe that after bitching about the quality of work in empire, along the lines of "everything works for as long as you don't use it", our pile of stuff exhibits the same exact property.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 17:47 asciilifeform: ( lessee if i properly ate & shat, 'i do not consider myself a programmer, for i have another craft. let's say i am an amateur programmer. and yet though i am an amateur, i find myself having written tens of thou. of loc in this-here life. and at least a min of 10k loc for web. but wanna hear sumthing ? never have i created a security hole in any. never. do you suppose i simply had good luck ? possibly luck. or possibly i wrote the c
mod6: I should have examined/tested your mpi vpatches, alf. I'll continue to try to be a second pair of eyes, reading them. There's no substitute for reading. For those following along, take note.
mod6: Additionally, if someone in the republic wishes to create a vpatch/genesis and have a second pair of eyes look it over, by all means, send it to me.
mod6: I'll do what I can to vet it.
trinque respectfully points out that at least by his eyes, V forces personal responsibility, not a pretense to being immaculately conceived.
mod6: never hurts to have someone measure for the n'th time for you before you cut, however.
mod6: <+trinque> genesis doesn't have to mean perfect. <+trinque> nobody's going to come for you with pitchforks << no one expects a spanish something or other either...
mod6: but furthermore, i tend to agree. if i thought that my V would stay in perl forever, i'd probably already have created the genesis. however, i'd like to see if I can get the Ada version off the ground.
trinque: mod6: makes sense, not vpatching a prototype
mod6: because what i don't want to do is have a perl genesis, then some vpatch that deletes everything and inflates a bunch of ada stuffs. prolly be better to start in the lang you expect to say within for the lifetime of the application.
mircea_popescu: mod6 it's not a crime to have a perl vtron. however, if you plan as your own strategy to move away from perl and you're judging it more of a liability than anything, then by all means, eschew.
mircea_popescu: original mod6 perl vtron was important prototype in the early life of v, made all sorts of latter things possible. exactly like original bitcoin. nobody said you have to marry it now though ; or divorce it for that matter.
mod6: It /is/ a bit worrysome that I believe that I'm the only person who knows how it works. And since it's the only version in existence that encompasses all of the rules arbitrated in our chamber, that a new version that is easier to understand is warranted.
mircea_popescu: what language(s) you work in is your own, entirely personal, choice.
mircea_popescu: i'm not going to pick a wife for you, "here, THIS is the woman you should be comfortable with". pick your own. languages idem.
mircea_popescu: on a long enough timeframe, there's going to exist a vtron in ~any language anyway, i expect.
mod6: mircea_popescu: that's kinda neat really
mod6: asciilifeform: werd
mod6: crap, just a sec, haven't even looked yet. bbs.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> i recall a similar boojum in my 1st attempt at the FG release, that time it was a '+++' inside a uuencoded blob << lol, ok i see the problem too. you're right, this similar thing happened before.
BingoBoingo recalls diff being an issue, forgets the context
mircea_popescu: alternately, of course... "no clearsigned material within patches". this may even be a right thing independently of the actual bug.
mircea_popescu: in that there's no reason to have them, and their presence is in itself sign of babbage's braindamage, much like say a canister for light, or a faucet for patience.
trinque: differently wrong on openbsd patch
trinque: a read of the manfile of linux patch suggests *massive* fuckery to allow idjits to pull patches out of other text, email, newsgroups, etc
BingoBoingo: Well, when discussing trb on Openbsd we are talking something that spans 5.5-ish and ends no later than 6.1
trinque: who was? just trying a patch with bsd stubble vs gnu moss-hair
BingoBoingo: trinque: Their move to clang as default compiler makes pain
mircea_popescu: i suppose the third alternative is to actually implement a proper diff as part of vtron
phf: there's nothing wrong with the diff, asciilifeform is thrashing
phf: if you just run a diff -uNr on the two readmes, the resultant patch works. if you run a diff on the resulting patch and the vpatch in the tar, then you can see that there's something wrong with the vpatch specifically
☟︎ phf: ------BEGIN PGP false
phf: from readme_only.vpatch
phf: ah, so what's actually broken in this particular case, is the original v implementation
trinque: ah so the vdiff script wrapping diff probably did that?
☟︎ phf: [2017-12-06 22:12:39 [ERROR]] removing line [-----BEGIN PGP false] but found [-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----]
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 22:05 phf: if you just run a diff -uNr on the two readmes, the resultant patch works. if you run a diff on the resulting patch and the vpatch in the tar, then you can see that there's something wrong with the vpatch specifically
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 21:46 mircea_popescu: we'll end up with a s/-/=/ intermediate step or wtf.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 22:07 trinque: ah so the vdiff script wrapping diff probably did that?
phf: asciilifeform: you're misrepresenting the problem
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 00:43 asciilifeform: incidentally you will blow up on the +++ mine if you try and diff a vdiff.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 20:15 asciilifeform: and haha, there are TWO +++ lines !
mircea_popescu: nah. keep the current death word (---) ; replace all conflicts in raw input to ===.
phf: the problem is not diff or diff format, the problem is that vdiff does a naive grep for a prefix and breaks a perfectly valid traditional patch
mircea_popescu: yes well. if you use in-band you end up with policed forbidden words.
phf: well, diff produces enough information for you to not have to do that.
phf: but it will require either writing a vdiff from scratch, or else adding a better parser to vdiff
phf: yes, diff gives you exhaustive details about hunk size
phf: e.g. @@ -1,6 +1,3 @@
phf: _but it will require either writing a vdiff from scratch, or else adding a better parser to vdiff_
phf: in this case "better parser" is a parser that actually understands the format it's processing
phf: you can hand produce a second_cut that's not broken by tooling
phf: you want me to write a second_cut by hand that presses cleanly?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you shouldn't put gpg clearsigned bits in a patch in the first place.
phf: and that doesn't in any way require breaking the files?
mircea_popescu: and a rule whereby ada comments are "-- " not "--" is not the end of the world either.
mircea_popescu: stylistic rules happen all the time. "name variables like this".
mircea_popescu: idiotparser has the extreme advantage of not even being a parser, ie, simplicity.
trinque: vdiff just needs to match diff chunk header lines better, and fixed.
trinque: as if that ball of hair is readable
phf: ~vdiff~ is broken. not diff, not lizard hitler, not gnu stack
trinque: but it appears to say anything starting with --- must be diffheaderstuff
mircea_popescu: still, ironclad argument that current grep is broken : looks for PART OF the header it should.
mircea_popescu: the correct diff header is "--- " ; not "-" nor "---".
mircea_popescu: they utterly don't belong there. you got a .sig mechanism for this.
mircea_popescu: vdiff should be fixed to search for the full 4 char header also.
mircea_popescu: i expect his method (add the terminating ---s the thing expects even if spurious) works even if implementation may need work. tho i dun wanna go down this road.
mircea_popescu: incidentally -- which sha512 are we using ? not keccak is it.
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 13580.0, vol: 18744.29712103 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 13479.0, vol: 77434.31525352 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 13741.0, vol: 4927.96991047 | Volume-weighted last average: 13510.4945086
mircea_popescu: if we start fucking with vdiff, this is the first mover.
mircea_popescu: item scheduled for eucrypt lib so keep watch of diana_coman 's blog. can be just taken from there put here.
mircea_popescu: if anyone seriously considers re-writing venerable diff/patch into v-dp
diana_coman: I can confirm this version presses with mod6's vtron
diana_coman: I can also confirm that it presses with asciilifeform's v and moreover that the 2 results are - as expected - same