log
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asciilifeform: but again this is only interesting if one's building a '100% trb-compat' in e.g. ada.
asciilifeform: e.g. ada was ~identical experience.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-07 14:27:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i spent ~decade e.g. knowing about ada but avoiding cuz 'dun like'. it was stupid.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i spent ~decade e.g. knowing about ada but avoiding cuz 'dun like'. it was stupid.
asciilifeform: re forth -- it's cemented in ANSI X3.215 (1994--current) (1st in 1980!), ISO/IEC 15145 (1997--current) . rather like ada, dead tree standard. and quite unlike e.g. python, php. ( and unlike cl , is actually possible to program in the lang as specified in the standard. )
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-05 00:02:23 verisimilitude: I'm starting work on networking libraries in Ada; I've started with UDP; I'd appreciate receiving some thoughts on this package specification:
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-03 20:36:55 asciilifeform: in principle could then have a mircea_popescu-style php reader, and e.g ada bot .
asciilifeform: in principle could then have a mircea_popescu-style php reader, and e.g ada bot .
asciilifeform: ( the items which seem like exception -- e.g. gnat, where -- at least the ada part -- is almost readable -- to date were products of small group of actually organized effort , rather than 'esr's bazar' or whatnot )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932202 << ada imho is uniquely unsuited to 'munge 9000 strings' type of proggy. so not sure whether would ever want pg glue in it. any attempt to use, will be tremendously ugly
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 04:12:47 spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931955 <-- recall, /me already wrote a toy prototype as his introduction to ada. other than the fact that it looks noobish and requires work to integrate with the c-isms, writing logger on top of it would also require something along the lines of a. mod_adalisp and b. handling other wwwistic s
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:09:24 asciilifeform: diana_coman: you'd need to bake pg glue for ada, there aint any
spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931955 <-- recall, /me already wrote a toy prototype as his introduction to ada. other than the fact that it looks noobish and requires work to integrate with the c-isms, writing logger on top of it would also require something along the lines of a. mod_adalisp and b. handling other wwwistic s
asciilifeform fwiw suspects that most ada proggies dun even use preemptible threads -- they spawn N threads and they run until the warhead detonates..
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you'd need to bake pg glue for ada, there aint any
diana_coman: given this, I seriously wonder if it can be much worse to make it in ada on top of all the gnat-mess including unbounded strings and gnat.sockets and everything else; at least the full gnat so far *is* more transferable
asciilifeform: when i 1st sat down to write it, thought 'ada', then realized that simply to make the necessary glue would take a year, and that's if did nuffin else.
asciilifeform: this 'joy' is what one gets from a lang w/out paper standard a la ada.
asciilifeform: ^ was actually the 1st nontrivial proggy asciilifeform wrote in ada, just prior to picking up ffa
snsabot: Logged on 2018-10-25 22:14:23 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in gnat bugs : apparently ( and this is documented or mentioned nowhere ) : it is impossible to have a Ada.Finalization.Limited_Controlled type ANYWHERE inside a static library, unless it is generic all the way down (i.e. if the lib package is generic, any sub-packages must also be instantiated as generics )
asciilifeform: lobbes: but even there, i sat an' read e.g. 'programming of hell', got goin' with ada
BingoBoingo: I suppose we don't yet have an ada for it
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 18:06:40 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926916 << more importantly seems poor fit ; ada's strengths not so valuable for logger either.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 15:19:37 asciilifeform: this is not to say that 'impossible to logotron in ada', but that result will be 1) gargantuan 2) ~unreadable 3) likely buggy despite herculean effort
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926916 << more importantly seems poor fit ; ada's strengths not so valuable for logger either.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 04:45:56 spyked: also, I guess there's also the fact that despite all its problems, there's a pile of CL code (e.g. hunchentoot, cl-irc) that works... very similarly to how wordpress does the job, despite its size and other warts. maybe Ada could also find similar pieces of code for Ada, but tbh I haven't looked... yet?
asciilifeform: could try to use ada's 'streams' model. but then must decide, how to represent ~all~ of the possible tcp hiccups.
asciilifeform: nao, a general-purpose strings-and-streams-munging script lang ~might~ be worth implementing in ada.
asciilifeform: i suspect the glue for pg alone (i.e. if pg disgorges eggog, to produce proper ada-compat. exception, rather than crash), not to mention utf8ism, would weigh like ten ffa's
bvt: true, but i don't find '80% of cl argument' too convincing; if want comfort, sure, use cl/python; want hard memory limits and gcc performance, can use ada, it won't be fundamentally dirtier (due to tcp and db stuff), just more boilerplate code
asciilifeform: but i strongly suspect that 'ada logtron' will consist mostly of non-humanreadable hex constants , and the pg glue will be eating null-termed c strings , and generally the result will not be a thing you 'would fly in it? i wouldn't walk under it!'(tm)(r)(h. hughes)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 12:37:27 asciilifeform: i strongly suspect that 'logtron in ada' would inescapably contain the proverbial 'buggy 80% reimplementation of common lisp'(tm)
asciilifeform: this is not to say that 'impossible to logotron in ada', but that result will be 1) gargantuan 2) ~unreadable 3) likely buggy despite herculean effort
bvt: tbh i would not mind attempting an irc bot in ada, but it seems more like leasure activity so far.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-08 17:02:10 asciilifeform: diana_coman: principal weakness of ada in re this problem set (at least the ada 'specified' by asciilifeform) is stringism handling
asciilifeform: i strongly suspect that 'logtron in ada' would inescapably contain the proverbial 'buggy 80% reimplementation of common lisp'(tm)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 04:45:56 spyked: also, I guess there's also the fact that despite all its problems, there's a pile of CL code (e.g. hunchentoot, cl-irc) that works... very similarly to how wordpress does the job, despite its size and other warts. maybe Ada could also find similar pieces of code for Ada, but tbh I haven't looked... yet?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926692 << principal weakness (and strength! interestingly) of ada is the total lack of support for questionable legacy kludges .
spyked: also, I guess there's also the fact that despite all its problems, there's a pile of CL code (e.g. hunchentoot, cl-irc) that works... very similarly to how wordpress does the job, despite its size and other warts. maybe Ada could also find similar pieces of code for Ada, but tbh I haven't looked... yet?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: principal weakness of ada in re this problem set (at least the ada 'specified' by asciilifeform) is stringism handling
diana_coman: ultimately sure; currently I don't know; I even sketched quickly an Ada thing - main trouble though is lack of proper db interface (and otherwise relying on GNAT.Sockets and therefore the whole strand of streams etc)
asciilifeform: penalty (given similar algo) is approx same as ada's
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, that might be an argument for ada. but not for lisp. lisp comes with interpreter costs etc.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: at one time in '17 asciilifeform tried hand at writing basic ada www server. ended up burning it all. because ended up looking quite like 'hunchentoot', and quite evidently 'water took the shape of the bottle', i.e. inescapably
asciilifeform: not as gloriously pedantic as ada's docs, but similar in flavour.
asciilifeform: then 'ada renaissance' and suddenly 'hey gnat dunwork' and so on
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-17#1923053 - funnily enough not even *just* the playing; kid pleaded and asked so in the end got him through ~20 lines of Ada doing a little "guess the number" text-game and he's more hooked to mess around with it than with heroes because obv "can look inside" ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 02:14 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in gnat bugs : apparently ( and this is documented or mentioned nowhere ) : it is impossible to have a Ada.Finalization.Limited_Controlled type ANYWHERE inside a static library, unless it is generic all the way down (i.e. if the lib package is generic, any sub-packages must also be instantiated as generics )
bvt: well, building is actually trivial -- sed 's/aarch64 x86_64/x86_64 mipsel-sf/' build-ada-arm64.sh > build-ada-mipsel.sh ; i'll do a post about this, but this'd be all the technical meat in it
ave1: btw I've *not* used the ada core version as a starting point for about a year now
asciilifeform: worx at least on c/ada mixture, e.g. my udp lib
asciilifeform: ftr ada's 'gprbuild' is the 1st 'make'-like automator asciilifeform ever used that he did not want to throw against the wall erryday
asciilifeform: ( consider, e.g., the 'ada-sockets' horror of 'abstraction' replaced in the udp lib )
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-14#1918191 -> the q being ofc if the existing "abtractions" really help much or just make it even harder; a sort of C/CPP thing rather than Ada thing. ☝︎
asciilifeform: often enuff, won't. sorta half the appeal of ada
diana_coman: (re files and access time I need to look if I can get it, hopefully, via Ada.Directories)
diana_coman: from my pov I'm fine to switch perspective and go then with this approach, so basically there are no "client/cpp demands" anything since Ada-part directly handles it on the principle "if I saw it and it's not there, then I'll ask for it"; how is any limit re space or anything of the sort to be defined and handled in this case?
mp_en_viaje: it's clear, one's in c the other in ada, yes.
diana_coman: between c and ada ?
a111: Logged on 2019-05-22 11:34 stjohn_piano_2: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914395 << from logs + mocky's "why ada", i understand some of the technical merits of ada. however, my perception of the current job market is that trying to make a living at ada leads directly to a hardware sharashka.
a111: Logged on 2019-05-17 14:35 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914368 << consider ada. ( ffa series imho makes a decent ada tutorial, and so does diana_coman's series )
stjohn_piano_2: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914395 << from logs + mocky's "why ada", i understand some of the technical merits of ada. however, my perception of the current job market is that trying to make a living at ada leads directly to a hardware sharashka. ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: at least seems to be the case for ada projs.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914368 << consider ada. ( ffa series imho makes a decent ada tutorial, and so does diana_coman's series ) ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: observe that it was not asciilifeform who devised e.g. ada. it came from the (nao mostly dead) world where this kinda thing was understood .
asciilifeform: somewhere i had paper spec (nominally!) for just css. it weighed moar than ada spec .
asciilifeform installed some time in 2011, used for c, ada, verilog, bash, etc , these -- worked
asciilifeform: appears to work for ada, and coupla dozen other langs, w/out issue
mp_en_viaje: you could just fix that thing, from description it's also broken for ada ?
mp_en_viaje: and yes, obviously php ain't no ada.
asciilifeform started by taking the included 'ada mode' and modifying. but thing seems to choke on the single-character keywords of peh
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:05 diana_coman: speaking of Barnes' Ada book: it IS very useful and I certainly do go back to it quite often still for all sorts but it still has at times such ideas that I can't stand; e.g. "The reader will probably feel that the activation mechanism is somewhat elaborate. However, in practice, the details will rarely need to be considered. They are mentioned in order to show that the mechanism is well defined rather than because of their everyday import
asciilifeform: meanwhile in entirely unrelated lulz, asciilifeform came across a 1984 edition of barnes's ada at flea market , and it's ~pocket-sized . i suspect that if one were to write a 'tmsr ada' dead tree, would look ~similar roughly ☝︎
asciilifeform: what do i then tell people, 'yes canhaz ada, but dun use thread' lol.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-30 14:22 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-30#1910209 << this is a solvable problem -- given a) lang that actually supports modularization ( ada & common lisp, afaik, being the only such currently ) ; b) mandatorily compact system soft (i.e. specifically opposed to mil+ loc of liquishit c) generous public whippings for 'the dancers who are hindered by own arse'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-30#1910209 << this is a solvable problem -- given a) lang that actually supports modularization ( ada & common lisp, afaik, being the only such currently ) ; b) mandatorily compact system soft (i.e. specifically opposed to mil+ loc of liquishit c) generous public whippings for 'the dancers who are hindered by own arse' ☝︎☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-25 21:40 asciilifeform: even positing pc iron and mircea_popescu's 'why not at least rewrite os in ada' , it isn't clear to me why you'd want to keep e.g. unix's retarded process model ( where process cannot , say, propagate an ada exception for sane eggog handling, but is stuck dying and returning numeric barf code ) if you do such thing.
asciilifeform: even positing pc iron and mircea_popescu's 'why not at least rewrite os in ada' , it isn't clear to me why you'd want to keep e.g. unix's retarded process model ( where process cannot , say, propagate an ada exception for sane eggog handling, but is stuck dying and returning numeric barf code ) if you do such thing. ☟︎
asciilifeform: or consider how ada standard omits 'shifts'
a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 14:36 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909529 << the idea isn't to get tcc to compile ada. the idea is to destroy gcc -- cut the "useful compilation half" into an ada compiler ; cut the shitlands compilation half into a small weight something else. there is no republican future for gcc as a gcc in the foss / linus-stallman sense of the term.
mp_en_viaje: one of the major things we're working towards here is to construct the ada-centric self-hosting ecosystem.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile its been YEARS, and guess what ? 0 new development on c. everyone wants to write in ada.
mp_en_viaje: see, all this reasoning is informed by experience : back when we started looking at systems design lang, and started discussing ada, i was very adamantly for maintaining options open.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909529 << the idea isn't to get tcc to compile ada. the idea is to destroy gcc -- cut the "useful compilation half" into an ada compiler ; cut the shitlands compilation half into a small weight something else. there is no republican future for gcc as a gcc in the foss / linus-stallman sense of the term. ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: i.e. what you'd want is to 'self-host' (on iron built for the purpose) a lang where a c, ada, etc. compiler is 3000 ln.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)
bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc) ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: folx who dun like that ada asks you to write arrays low ... high , can make own lang and write arithmetron for selves in it, it is not a priority for asciilifeform and i dun see an argument for making it one.
asciilifeform: i'll add, however, that ffa does not use byte-addressing or bit-addressing, if you were to build a machine where either is in whatever direction, and write a (standard-compliant) ada for it, ffa will work same way.
asciilifeform: the q, if there even is a q, is re what convention of order to write array range in. ada forces the low-to-high left-to-right.
asciilifeform: but neither ada nor anyffin else, does this.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:47 diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm"
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: boeing claims ada in 7xx series. but i have no means to verify .
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:37 diana_coman: I suspect by now the "Ada-space" is rather mapped since I keep bumping into the same names
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:26 asciilifeform: near as i can tell, these folx simply sat down and 'wrote c++ in ada', is all there was to it.
diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm" ☟︎
asciilifeform pictures already the coming orgy of derps , writing 'ada' cum heapism/pointers , so to 'feel like a trader^H^H^H^H^Hboeing' etc
diana_coman: perhaps; fwiw I think there's a rather funny rush to "find" Ada.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform would find it interesting to read the 1980s ada that's running on boeing etc. , but so far never found any leaked pieces thereof. would be interesting to see if resembles e.g. ffa style.