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asciilifeform: then 'ada renaissance' and suddenly 'hey gnat dunwork' and so on
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-17#1923053 - funnily enough not even *just* the playing; kid pleaded and asked so in the end got him through ~20 lines of Ada doing a little "guess the number" text-game and he's more hooked to mess around with it than with heroes because obv "can look inside" ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 02:14 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in gnat bugs : apparently ( and this is documented or mentioned nowhere ) : it is impossible to have a Ada.Finalization.Limited_Controlled type ANYWHERE inside a static library, unless it is generic all the way down (i.e. if the lib package is generic, any sub-packages must also be instantiated as generics )
bvt: well, building is actually trivial -- sed 's/aarch64 x86_64/x86_64 mipsel-sf/' build-ada-arm64.sh > build-ada-mipsel.sh ; i'll do a post about this, but this'd be all the technical meat in it
ave1: btw I've *not* used the ada core version as a starting point for about a year now
asciilifeform: worx at least on c/ada mixture, e.g. my udp lib
asciilifeform: ftr ada's 'gprbuild' is the 1st 'make'-like automator asciilifeform ever used that he did not want to throw against the wall erryday
asciilifeform: ( consider, e.g., the 'ada-sockets' horror of 'abstraction' replaced in the udp lib )
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-14#1918191 -> the q being ofc if the existing "abtractions" really help much or just make it even harder; a sort of C/CPP thing rather than Ada thing. ☝︎
asciilifeform: often enuff, won't. sorta half the appeal of ada
diana_coman: (re files and access time I need to look if I can get it, hopefully, via Ada.Directories)
diana_coman: from my pov I'm fine to switch perspective and go then with this approach, so basically there are no "client/cpp demands" anything since Ada-part directly handles it on the principle "if I saw it and it's not there, then I'll ask for it"; how is any limit re space or anything of the sort to be defined and handled in this case?
mp_en_viaje: it's clear, one's in c the other in ada, yes.
diana_coman: between c and ada ?
a111: Logged on 2019-05-22 11:34 stjohn_piano_2: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914395 << from logs + mocky's "why ada", i understand some of the technical merits of ada. however, my perception of the current job market is that trying to make a living at ada leads directly to a hardware sharashka.
a111: Logged on 2019-05-17 14:35 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914368 << consider ada. ( ffa series imho makes a decent ada tutorial, and so does diana_coman's series )
stjohn_piano_2: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914395 << from logs + mocky's "why ada", i understand some of the technical merits of ada. however, my perception of the current job market is that trying to make a living at ada leads directly to a hardware sharashka. ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: at least seems to be the case for ada projs.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914368 << consider ada. ( ffa series imho makes a decent ada tutorial, and so does diana_coman's series ) ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: observe that it was not asciilifeform who devised e.g. ada. it came from the (nao mostly dead) world where this kinda thing was understood .
asciilifeform: somewhere i had paper spec (nominally!) for just css. it weighed moar than ada spec .
asciilifeform installed some time in 2011, used for c, ada, verilog, bash, etc , these -- worked
asciilifeform: appears to work for ada, and coupla dozen other langs, w/out issue
mp_en_viaje: you could just fix that thing, from description it's also broken for ada ?
mp_en_viaje: and yes, obviously php ain't no ada.
asciilifeform started by taking the included 'ada mode' and modifying. but thing seems to choke on the single-character keywords of peh
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 21:05 diana_coman: speaking of Barnes' Ada book: it IS very useful and I certainly do go back to it quite often still for all sorts but it still has at times such ideas that I can't stand; e.g. "The reader will probably feel that the activation mechanism is somewhat elaborate. However, in practice, the details will rarely need to be considered. They are mentioned in order to show that the mechanism is well defined rather than because of their everyday import
asciilifeform: meanwhile in entirely unrelated lulz, asciilifeform came across a 1984 edition of barnes's ada at flea market , and it's ~pocket-sized . i suspect that if one were to write a 'tmsr ada' dead tree, would look ~similar roughly ☝︎
asciilifeform: what do i then tell people, 'yes canhaz ada, but dun use thread' lol.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-30 14:22 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-30#1910209 << this is a solvable problem -- given a) lang that actually supports modularization ( ada & common lisp, afaik, being the only such currently ) ; b) mandatorily compact system soft (i.e. specifically opposed to mil+ loc of liquishit c) generous public whippings for 'the dancers who are hindered by own arse'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-30#1910209 << this is a solvable problem -- given a) lang that actually supports modularization ( ada & common lisp, afaik, being the only such currently ) ; b) mandatorily compact system soft (i.e. specifically opposed to mil+ loc of liquishit c) generous public whippings for 'the dancers who are hindered by own arse' ☝︎☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-04-25 21:40 asciilifeform: even positing pc iron and mircea_popescu's 'why not at least rewrite os in ada' , it isn't clear to me why you'd want to keep e.g. unix's retarded process model ( where process cannot , say, propagate an ada exception for sane eggog handling, but is stuck dying and returning numeric barf code ) if you do such thing.
asciilifeform: even positing pc iron and mircea_popescu's 'why not at least rewrite os in ada' , it isn't clear to me why you'd want to keep e.g. unix's retarded process model ( where process cannot , say, propagate an ada exception for sane eggog handling, but is stuck dying and returning numeric barf code ) if you do such thing. ☟︎
asciilifeform: or consider how ada standard omits 'shifts'
a111: Logged on 2019-04-24 14:36 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909529 << the idea isn't to get tcc to compile ada. the idea is to destroy gcc -- cut the "useful compilation half" into an ada compiler ; cut the shitlands compilation half into a small weight something else. there is no republican future for gcc as a gcc in the foss / linus-stallman sense of the term.
mp_en_viaje: one of the major things we're working towards here is to construct the ada-centric self-hosting ecosystem.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile its been YEARS, and guess what ? 0 new development on c. everyone wants to write in ada.
mp_en_viaje: see, all this reasoning is informed by experience : back when we started looking at systems design lang, and started discussing ada, i was very adamantly for maintaining options open.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909529 << the idea isn't to get tcc to compile ada. the idea is to destroy gcc -- cut the "useful compilation half" into an ada compiler ; cut the shitlands compilation half into a small weight something else. there is no republican future for gcc as a gcc in the foss / linus-stallman sense of the term. ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: i.e. what you'd want is to 'self-host' (on iron built for the purpose) a lang where a c, ada, etc. compiler is 3000 ln.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)
bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc) ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: folx who dun like that ada asks you to write arrays low ... high , can make own lang and write arithmetron for selves in it, it is not a priority for asciilifeform and i dun see an argument for making it one.
asciilifeform: i'll add, however, that ffa does not use byte-addressing or bit-addressing, if you were to build a machine where either is in whatever direction, and write a (standard-compliant) ada for it, ffa will work same way.
asciilifeform: the q, if there even is a q, is re what convention of order to write array range in. ada forces the low-to-high left-to-right.
asciilifeform: but neither ada nor anyffin else, does this.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:47 diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm"
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: boeing claims ada in 7xx series. but i have no means to verify .
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:37 diana_coman: I suspect by now the "Ada-space" is rather mapped since I keep bumping into the same names
a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:26 asciilifeform: near as i can tell, these folx simply sat down and 'wrote c++ in ada', is all there was to it.
diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm" ☟︎
asciilifeform pictures already the coming orgy of derps , writing 'ada' cum heapism/pointers , so to 'feel like a trader^H^H^H^H^Hboeing' etc
diana_coman: perhaps; fwiw I think there's a rather funny rush to "find" Ada.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform would find it interesting to read the 1980s ada that's running on boeing etc. , but so far never found any leaked pieces thereof. would be interesting to see if resembles e.g. ffa style.
diana_coman: I suspect by now the "Ada-space" is rather mapped since I keep bumping into the same names ☟︎
asciilifeform: kazakov's thing isn't an ada tutorial, it's a (surprisingly well documented, for a heathen) lib collection
asciilifeform: diana_coman: upstack to 'quasi-decent heathen adaists', 1 item from my notes is http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de/ada/components.htm
diana_coman: anyway, for client use, it's not ada-heapism that is in any way a problem really.
diana_coman: this guy is the first that doesn't quite seem "c++ in ada" really i.e. he seems more focused on Ada for the right reasons; I suspect more the windows-based trouble as it were.
asciilifeform: near as i can tell, these folx simply sat down and 'wrote c++ in ada', is all there was to it. ☟︎
diana_coman: as I'm coming from a few years already of reading and wrestling planeshift code, I can't say it'll be reading heathen Ada that would cost me time, lol.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: so far i've found that reading heathen ada examples ~cost~ me time, rather than saved, and put into my head things that later had to laboriously pump out. and the zip fella is no exception.
asciilifeform: the ada array-slice notation makes this work properly without substantial effort, simply through the type constraint logic .
diana_coman: from there I had a look at his zip ada and the rest
diana_coman: I saw that he has supposedly even an Ada browser but when I tried to get the sources it seems I got some incomplete/windows-dev thing
a111: Logged on 2017-02-02 01:08 asciilifeform: http://unzip-ada.sourceforge.net/za_html/index.htm << astonishingly readable literate-programming d00d. and he has a bunch of these.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906980 << yes ; progressing from a gentoo fork end, from an ada-as-systems-language end, from a bitcoin-has-to-be-an-os / needs-own-fs end, and from a few other too small to list yet. ☝︎
asciilifeform: vendor supplied lisp, ada, fortran, even c, compilers , which interoperated to the point of safely calling proggy written in 1, from another
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907042 << all of these archs were missing essential piece for sanity -- type tagging and bounds checking. ( i.e. if running ada or lisp 'costs extra' on your iron vs. c , your arch is broken ! ) ☝︎
OriansJ: an 8bit immediate can be very useful for dense code and it would fit most bootstrapping constants if it is signed; support for 16, 32 and up immediates makes supporting compilers for C/Ada easier to write but it isn't a real issue if you have support for IP relative loads of 32bit and up values
bvt: re 2, after a restricted ada assembler, should a ada-dos be built? mes assumes that linux kernel is a given, which imho is a big hole in the process
OriansJ: 1) Did you mean in regards to minimal hardware requirements or the set which would make it a host platform worth using after the bootstrap is done and 2) Generally a higher level language such as Ada or C.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << well, this depends on the subset of ada; re contributors - this is a known issue ☝︎
BingoBoingo: OriansJ: Well right now we have some people working on flensing a minimal linux from Gentoo-MUSL and other people building utilities in ADA
OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors. ☟︎☟︎
bvt: of course, ada/gnat is too complex for bootstrapping as-is, but i guess equivalent safety properties would be still required
bvt: so far everything points into the direction opposite of linux/c (http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/ may be interesting)
diana_coman: billymg the tests I have are simply automated ada and/or c/cpp tests for the code, nothing v-specific really; from V's pov it's just code like the rest.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-26 21:31 asciilifeform: i'll add that even a tcp skin wouldn't be entirely useless ( right nao the only way to write a wwwistic proggy in ada is to use adacorpse's 'gnatsockets' crock of shit )
Mocky: ada sounds good. I'm not sure if db wrapper is a good starting point though, maybe work up to it
mircea_popescu: but otherwise, what sounds good ? you wanna do the ada db wrapper for instance ?
asciilifeform: i'll add that even a tcp skin wouldn't be entirely useless ( right nao the only way to write a wwwistic proggy in ada is to use adacorpse's 'gnatsockets' crock of shit ) ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( in the last iteration , the 1 that presently dun build on acct of gnat bug , you simply make any data structure you like in ada, and it persists to disk. )
asciilifeform: ideally what you'd want imho is a sane db solidly in ada, rather than coupla mil+ loc of c ??? . but this may be bridge too far just yet.
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact we gotta weld ada to db already, what.
mircea_popescu: in another order : an ada prototype for db interaction, at the very least with mysql and postgres, would probably get imported into a lot of projects. anyone has one unpublished ? anyone wanna write ?
mircea_popescu: in any case, a very tentative possible repoublican alternate machine can be already intuited : if p backend is welded to gcc;s frontends, one can code in ada (or c#, why not), compiler for p-machine and live happily ever after.
asciilifeform: ( in fact ada per se has a fascism knob that, if set, prevents early return from subroutines . i have not thus far used, cuz in ffa per se this is already the case, nuffin gets to terminate early when 'constant time' algo )
chonkin: Is this real? https://www.adaic.org/advantages/ada-overview/
chonkin: ada for critical code.. interesting
BingoBoingo: Ever play with ADA? http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/
asciilifeform: ( and subs internal to subs, permitted in ada planet just as they are in pascal )
asciilifeform: consider the not-uninteresting fact, that on 370,000-transistor bolix, ada was 50kloc ; while on 3bil+-transistor x86, ada (gnat cum gcc cum deps) is , what, 1mil+ ? and their kernel was iirc ~50kloc, while ours...
asciilifeform: ( ditto gnat. the troo adatron would be a ~50kloc bolix-style ada on sane iron support, rather than crusty old gnat )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:49 asciilifeform: if we had a sane iron, would be similarly easy to produce a back end ( and that's what asciilifeform thinks of as 'ada machine' )
bvt: there are Import(Ada,...) and Import(Asm,...), which do the same thing according to the docs (http://archive.is/XEHW0#selection-17075.0-17109.171), and I did not manage to find any ABI docs with 'ada calling sequence'.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 02:44 mircea_popescu: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/ffa-chapter-9-homework-comba-in-x86_64-assembly/#selection-15.295-19.176 << why this, specifically ? is there no ada asm calling method besides this ?