tmsr - Log 2019-08-29

lobbes: well most learning materials I've read did suggest to start with kana, for that specific reason

BingoBoingo: lobbes: Well, the idea behind Qntra is if you see a lol, you share the lol and through this process Qntra grows in both author count and in lol enjoying population

trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931384 << what's the url you want to have? possibly doable as apache-level URL rewrite

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-27 11:17:48 asciilifeform: it'd have to by the ugly-as-arse /log/chan/index#index or sumsuch

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-27 13:27:15 mircea_popescu: add to that the FUCKING INSANE tlp being annoying as fuck, i'm having a blogging crisis over here

asciilifeform: i.e. errything oughta work just as presently, BUT with the index being the actual determinator of where link goes.

asciilifeform: ( incl. the page scroll to anchor and highlight must remain working just as now )

asciilifeform: ( the reason for this itch is that i have found it to be impossible to guarantee that all dates agree )

asciilifeform: trinque: see linked mircea_popescu thread. it appears to be the case that anchors in fact are not transmitted to the remote end, at all.

asciilifeform: currently closest thing i had to a workable idea is /chan/idx#x ( where #x is simply a fixed string ) and generated page contains #x in the right pos, and coloured line there.

trinque: heh, I can go hankier. you could instead have a server-side rewrite rule that 301 redirects from / to #

asciilifeform: trinque: dun seem like any standard-compliant www end ( front or back ) ever sees # or any text after.

asciilifeform: ( my notion above, /chan/optionaldate/index#x , is cribbed from mircea_popescu's selection colourer )

trinque: asciilifeform: considered just giving every line a UUID instead of int identifier?

trinque: lemme go back and try and figure out what exactly is the problem you're trying to solve, unless you'd endulge me with a restatement, because I don't think I'm following.

trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931397 << yes, I don't understand what it means to both be decorative and work correctly

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-27 11:35:50 asciilifeform: dates gotta be decorative and work correctly while being so, or oughta go entirely.

asciilifeform: but at the same time all links are displayed on www from within a calendarized page just as now , with date in the base url ( the date my logger believes they occurred on )

trinque: I wouldn't even consider it a sin if you just went back and fixed all the links to point to present logger, and in so doing, fixed the format.

asciilifeform: trinque: this would simply throw the problem into the lap of people trying to make own loggers that sync with mine.

trinque: how? you'd have /log/$channel/$date/$canonicalId and use the latter for line lookup, and the penultimate for paging

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-10 10:25:59 asciilifeform: when wrote 1st draft of logotron, i made mistake of sorting ~by time~, ended up with soup displayed

asciilifeform: trinque: above seems to be exactly what i suggested. but as i understand will also need #x or such, to scroll to line

asciilifeform: it's headache, but as i understand the shitsoup standard offers no clean knob for it

trinque: yeah, can 301 redirec them to a URL which includes the anchor for the line they requested

asciilifeform: seems like there is no clean pill, only decision of where we can move the dirt.

asciilifeform: i'ma wait for mircea_popescu to wake up and see what he thinks before changing proggy. and whoknows, maybe we both missed sumthing.

trinque: turns out I'm quite tired. I think the above is probably the cleanest solution. will think moar and rejoin thread

asciilifeform: ( ftr '301' dun strictly require apache kludging, it could be done in my proggy per se )

asciilifeform: so seems like best formulation so far is http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931788 plus the proggy feeds client always 301 to the above with #x appended .

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 21:30:38 trinque: how? you'd have /log/$channel/$date/$canonicalId and use the latter for line lookup, and the penultimate for paging

asciilifeform: $date would be unused by the parser, while still being correct in all newly-emitted links

asciilifeform: ( should we even have it in the links..? not as if quoting bot doesn't spew the date when quoting )

asciilifeform: my present take on all of this : it ~is~ possible for loggers to agree on ~order~ of lines ( albeit in corner cases, difficult ). however it is not possible for them to properly agree re absolute time. ( and in fact the timestamps in the imported logs are all over the place )

asciilifeform: i suggested in orig thrd, to throw out the date from url. lessee what mircea_popescu thinks.

asciilifeform: trinque: re clocks, at one time mircea_popescu suggested to use trb block as clock. but imho is of very limited use as clock, cuz not guaranteed to advance in any given interval.

asciilifeform: ( for folx not following in depth -- fleanode does not emit timestamps; they come from local machine where a given logotron ran when it logged a line )

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 17:36:55 mircea_popescu: earlier stopped at gelateria. nicely furnished. had no table service and only paper cups. ONE SIZE. no plates, no nothing.

mircea_popescu: ooo megalog.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931721 << well, or maybe some of the rotakus in attendance take pity on the inquisitve minds wanting to know and trasnlate some

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 19:59:18 lobbes: incidentally, it may be time I join the rotaku club. Good % of Trilema that I can't even begin to read

mircea_popescu: (i'm pretty sure they would by specific request)

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931717 << that's exactly how that goes : as the harem ages, the focus naturally moves from business to education,

mircea_popescu: meaning from seeking power to seeking potential (the reagent / driver is the marginal disutility of money, rather than simple sclerosis, to be clear). ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2015-02-21 01:19 mircea_popescu: "she's been going through 6-7k each month since autumn, but i get to go visit p diddy whenever i feel like it. it's a wash"

mircea_popescu: so in practical, male, power-constructed terms, however you wish to call this : if you fail to make good because you spent all your resources hailing twennysomethings, that's a failure of education (ie, blame the parents, shoulda told you better), but if you fail to make it because couldn't find support in the old guard, well, that's the plain failure to thrive (blame self).

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 19:55:35 lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931666 << Thank you. I was thinking this was the way to go as most of the folx giving me the best advice at those meetings (and online for that matter) were, in fact, older subbie girls near their 50s, followed by the 'old guard' owners.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 04:01:43 mp_en_viaje: 2) i never made money, i always made power. the money was coincidental. i never made all the money there was to make or could. nor did i ever give much of a shit, i'm utterly not constructive, a world of nothing but mp will burn down.

mircea_popescu: (and, for completeness, i find the misrepresentation thereof as "ethical feeling" as displayed in ustarded tradition from carnegie to buffett ~particularly~ galling. it is EXACTLY iliterate huswife hearing on the radio them paris folk have dat aifl towers and going about her courtyard to identify "what could be that them aifl tower in here". cuz everything has one, right, she knows, like when she was a little girl, those u

mircea_popescu: gly bumps on her chest are her boobs! like she's seen in the hotter older girls with real boobage.

mircea_popescu: so then she picks the garbage pile the rooster sits on, calls it aifl tower and tells all her ingroup. cuz right, it makes sense, rooster ? gaelic cock ? it's even kinda shaped similarily! then through the "beauty" of the internet her stupid fucking son is going to pester dictionary writers to "be inclusive" and treat the eiffel tower ~AS A CLASS~ rather than as an item, and discuss "other examples" in the first stage, the

mircea_popescu: n "find allies" and "break down the priviledge"... the intellectual socioeconomy of ustarded morons is quite well understood by now.)

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931730 << ustards very much ottoman/manchuko sorta "monkey accidentally came on top of man, drives decay" sorta "invader". fundamentally sterile inferior foreigner kinda occupation.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 20:17:11 asciilifeform: interestingly, the americans, who colonized and subjugated jp, to this day produced ~0 usable lit re the lang. ~all of asciilifeform's working materials -- from su.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931745 << absolutely. i always suspected the "ease them in" approach as practiced ~everywhere is just fucking stupid.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 20:32:28 lobbes: perhaps starting with kanji not a bad idea

mircea_popescu: but i lack ammo, as i don't japanese myself. (the naked girl in snow, she spent 10 years of her life trying to get to the bottom o fthat pile, with mixed success)

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931765 << let's not js anymoar, experince shows it's never the right answer

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931769 << but if you redirect both you end up with endless redirect, and if you only redirect one either the server doesn't know what link is sought or the client doesn't scroll to the desired position.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 21:20:29 trinque: heh, I can go hankier. you could instead have a server-side rewrite rule that 301 redirects from / to #

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931804 <<->> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931386

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 21:35:52 asciilifeform: i'ma wait for mircea_popescu to wake up and see what he thinks before changing proggy. and whoknows, maybe we both missed sumthing.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-27 11:18:24 mircea_popescu: let this sit for a little we think more of it.

mircea_popescu: dun have to be solved today, we'll live for quite a while as it stands.

mircea_popescu: trinque, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-26#1931280 ?

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 17:24:16 mircea_popescu: !!withdraw 0.5 12tGxcb82jAgCCpCga4yoGtAvZkgst3jrk

mircea_popescu: apparently the prev one also

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931856 << aint catastrophically burning, troo; but it does block import of pre-'dragon' log until fixed (and, current log links may in fact slowly break as machine clock drifts )

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 03:37:54 mircea_popescu: dun have to be solved today, we'll live for quite a while as it stands.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931848 << this character mentioned 4 or 5 times recently... but does it have a name ? ( i admit, when 1st saw picture, assumed it was a young photo-shy hanbot )

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 03:19:07 mircea_popescu: but i lack ammo, as i don't japanese myself. (the naked girl in snow, she spent 10 years of her life trying to get to the bottom o fthat pile, with mixed success)

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931846 << ameritards wrote books where all examples given in translit ! moar or less guaranteeing that whoever studies from these, can only parrot -- and poorly, the phonemes dun correspond to the eng ones ( tho funnily enuff they mostly exist in ru )

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 03:18:37 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931745 << absolutely. i always suspected the "ease them in" approach as practiced ~everywhere is just fucking stupid.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931861 << ought add, it will also create strong headache when the other bots stand up. none of the links will be guaranteed portable b/w bots , even if pains are taken to sync clocks. they drift.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 09:54:18 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931856 << aint catastrophically burning, troo; but it does block import of pre-'dragon' log until fixed (and, current log links may in fact slowly break as machine clock drifts )

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: meanwhile i found a fitting GB switch. 1u plant will thereby house 15 rk .

asciilifeform: annoyingly , they all run on 12v, so can't use single-output 5v high current thing like i was initially planning, for the entire thing

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: any news on your front ? ( in particular, found reasonably-priced castle for mp ? )

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'm working on organizing a break down of the situation. It's a very map-heavy exercise

asciilifeform: meanwhile, asciilifeform realized that can use standard 1u atx ps, w/ 'breakout board' , to get the req'd 20A 5v + 1A 12v.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: meanwhile rk (16) + heat sinks bought. 1st major chunk of the new crate. 670 ($) . ( still need cabling, ps , the ssd's, and naturally to assemble. )

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'ma weld the support nuts to the pedestal, this time, nomoar fiddlings in hotel room.

diana_coman: asciilifeform: in your logbot readme: shouldn't it be create database nsalog; instead of createdb? at least my postgres chokes on createdb under psql

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 18:09:22 trinque: two different things; he's talking about the shell tool, and you're talking about the sql command

lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931835 << that was an educational footnote,ty. Also a good reminder that I am still in 'dirt' status, and to not let any of the cannibals out there try and lead me back into pretense

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 03:07:52 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-28#1931717 << that's exactly how that goes : as the harem ages, the focus naturally moves from business to education,

lobbes: "This "boy meets girl, they adultify each other" model is pure halucinatoria, the very substance of delirium and psychosis. It does not exist, nor ever has existed, nor ever will exist in reality." << sheesh, I've seen that model before

lobbes: I did reach back out to one of the helpful 50 yo subs I talked to though; she actually suggested meeting for coffee sometime, to which I said I'd love to. Hopefully will prove to be a pleasant and educational meeting

lobbes: In other news, I'm emerging a LAMP stack on my new server. Once complete I'll start futzing with getting the logotron stood up

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931889 << diana_coman this is so, i found recently when making mirror . feel free to submit a patch to amend the readme, otherwise it'll go in my next one.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 16:29:20 diana_coman: asciilifeform: in your logbot readme: shouldn't it be create database nsalog; instead of createdb? at least my postgres chokes on createdb under psql

asciilifeform: diana_coman: also imho it'd be neat if you wrote about how built the mirror, nitpicks, etc. for n00bz. ( i did not have time to write a pedantic cookbook, and as you can see even the readme had mistakes )

asciilifeform: both lobbes and diana_coman , lemme know when yer ready to sync, i'ma manually refresh the db dump

diana_coman: asciilifeform, lobbes fwiw I'm having additional fun due to older versions of postgresql (and last time I used any postgresql was > 12 years ago + never digged it all that much, ffs)

diana_coman: asciilifeform: myeah, 8 here; and no "create extension" so had to change the scripts to load the thing

diana_coman: asciilifeform: the extension pg_trgm thingies does exist; it's the loading that is different

asciilifeform considers 'make things go with oldest/smallest possib. spittoon' a Right Thing in general case

asciilifeform: i simply used the item that was known to work solidly w/ phuctor, when wrote the logger, was all.

lobbes: man, while it was a learning curve at first, I'm loving Gentoo now. Making my x86 system on this server to work like my x86 cuntoo testbed is as simple as just copying over my USE flags and package masks

lobbes: well maybe not THAT simple. But it is nice to be able to look in my masks and remember "oh yeah, I gotta remember to pick PYTHON target = 2.7" for e.g.

asciilifeform: cuz my trad gentoo boxen are all in condition where portage is no longer usable

snsabot: Logged on 2019-06-23 17:34:06 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919680 << fwiw asciilifeform has not used 'portage' in year+ -- the heathen portage finally 100% broke then. ( 'updated' on the gentooist end, so that no longer agrees to build ~anything~ without 'new profile', and won't install 'new profile' because hard-contravenes asciilifeform's poetteringisms ban list... )

asciilifeform: these will sorta work (if you make absolutely sure not to emerge --sync, EVER) ~until~ you find that some package is no longer alive on the (quite wilted) mirrors

asciilifeform: then -- yer gentoo has turned into equiv. of hand-sewn buildroot linux, where sure you can install things, but nao gotta manually tar ... ./configure && make && make install etc

asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'flask' is the http shitting lib. i've used same 1 since 2013 (phuctor)

diana_coman: centos 6; because gentoo problem as you just described + the poor moldavian guys anyway pretty much @kukuruz

asciilifeform: all of asciilifeform's published pythonisms are tested under 2.7. ( some ~may~ work on older; generally none will ever work on 3+ )

snsabot: Logged on 2017-03-12 14:40:14 Framedragger: asciilifeform: OT and just grammar nitpicking, but in http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/sage_pill.py line 22, s/Could connect/Could not connect/

asciilifeform: to make life even more 'interesting', there aint a magical version that can pick and 'will work on all of'em' . 2.6isms break on 2.7 just same.

diana_coman: ah, yes, I'm sure 2.6ism would break 2.7, it's more this "fun" of code reuse; and I can ofc install python 2.7 on top; I seriously wonder though what's really the fastest route; because also, above it doesn't even seem to be print, it barfs when importing flask, a few layers deep in werkzeug and whatever

asciilifeform: no one yet asked how asciilifeform ended up on 2.7. answr: it's where gentoo stopped when died and i put it in waxworks.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: if you decide to fiddle with the proggy so it goes on 2.6, prolly can be done ; but keep in mind that i will not be able to run yours anywhere, there's no 2.6 on any known gentoo of past decade or so.

asciilifeform: ( tho even gnat deviates from the paper, in several already discovered cases, sadly )

asciilifeform: i made it 'low tech' to the point of people tearing out their hair from missing features, but result is that it is small enuff that could rewrite .

asciilifeform: ftr i was half-convinced that it won't even run outside of asciilifeform's test beds -- until lobbes replicated

asciilifeform: diana_coman: if i had a palatable answer -- would have written in ~that~, lol

diana_coman: myeah; in case it's not clear - none of the above was a complaint re asciilifeform's work at all.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: rly it oughta be in tmsr-adalisp (tm)(r) but this apparently dun exist yet.

asciilifeform: when i 1st sat down to write it, thought 'ada', then realized that simply to make the necessary glue would take a year, and that's if did nuffin else.

asciilifeform: then thought 'cl', then noticed that will need 9000 unexplored (by asciilifeform) lib liquishits for pg, http, etc.; then 'fuck it, i'ma cut up phuctor and sew from its still-twitching living pieces'

diana_coman: for clarity re python 2.6 it's quite clear that it's not worth it - all sorts of breakings in flask & co really.

asciilifeform: i considered even exotics but realized it aint happening in reasonable time frame (and fuck knows what would look like) if did so. so went like so.

diana_coman: to cite from flask's description, for full allergy-triggers: A micro-framework for Python based on Werkzeug, Jinja 2 and good intentions

asciilifeform: diana_coman: for 2.6 need whole set of vintage liquishits that went with that specific py

asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'flask' , 'psycopg', etc. are erry bit as rubbish as the docs suggest. with the twist that the assemblage actually worx ( phuctor's been running, incl. under various abuses , for yrs , on same ) .

asciilifeform: if i had to pick it up all now for 1st time, dunno if could bring myself to -- it has absolutely atrocious feel to it (esp. given the 'modern' docs)

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 02:58:26 mp_en_viaje: Flask is a lightweight WSGI web application framework. It is designed to make getting started quick and easy, with the ability to scale up to complex applications. It began as a simple wrapper around Werkzeug and Jinja and has become one of the most popular Python web application frameworks." << really makes me want to be sober, reading that thing.

asciilifeform: iirc lobbes actually wrote a vintage-php frontend . but bot is still py and uses same spittoon

diana_coman: myeah, I quietly barfed in my notes re flask before but this time it just spilled in here.

asciilifeform: saddest thing is, i'm not even certain it's more retarded than e.g. hunchentoot

asciilifeform: ( considering, it is in py , interpreted lang, and my pages are generated approx on par with speed of phf's , at the immediate shitting arse end (discounting pipe delay ) )

asciilifeform: worse, not even certain that it is possible to write a clean/light www shitter , considering what http , tcp , are like to begin with

asciilifeform: ( mp is fond of old php , but it suffers from 100% of same headaches , and in fact even slower , esp. if the job is even slightly moar complicated than wp ; he arrived at it same way i did at 'flask' -- picked up decade ago and 'it worx, i'ma pour cement on this' )

asciilifeform: imho the Right Thing for this problem domain would be a tmsr-baked script lang built from ground, like-this . but so far no one has the free hands.

asciilifeform: ( would also be Right Thing for e.g. bootstrapping gnat, and related battlefield )

asciilifeform: i demonstrated, in 'm', how to write nontrivial proggies w/out libc or any c glue whatsoever, or any compiler dependency whatsoever.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: in re pythonisms -- for that matter i'm to ~this day~ ! using my orig v.py (w / phf's 'vdiff' , and your fixup patch.) also because never found in what to rewrite it.

asciilifeform: there's imho a ~huge~ chunk of problem domain that is begging for a simple, well-specified, ~frozen~ scripting lang.

asciilifeform: (imho entirely doable, i emulated an entire fucking comp, with mmu, uart, clock, in <13kB proggy)

diana_coman: well, I have at least fully explored the 1-strand spittoon: psycopg2 on python 2.7 wants postgresql 9 or greater and so it goes.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: you'll want a front end thing for it to live under (prolly apache) also .

diana_coman: asciilifeform: what's the easiest coupling if they run on same machine anywya?

asciilifeform: diana_coman: if it runs, will run, all that's asked of it is to forward a tcp pipe to port x (whichever yer py is on)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i at one pt blamed that coupling for the slow, and measured (plain rev.proxy vs 'wsgi' (equiv of php's fastcgi) , found 0 diff

asciilifeform: diana_coman: bot is own program and doesn't have any deps (aside from py per se and psycopg)

asciilifeform: the log viewer represented in the vtree simply serves itself on given local port when it runs. which you can then fwd to wherever.

asciilifeform: to be utterly pedantic : the log sys consists of 2 separate py proggies that share a db (normally expected on same box, but can in principle be elsewhere). bot.py and reader.py

asciilifeform: the former sits in irc and records lines, answers cmds, etc. ; the latter serves up the httpized logism.

asciilifeform: it is in fact possib. to use 1 w/out the other ( e.g. asciilifeform's adhoc mirrors have only reader.py ; one could sit a bot using solely bot.py and then write yer own viewer at leisure ; and so on )

asciilifeform: the only knob in bot that actually gives a shit re the reader is the search knob ( see where it expects to find the # of results ) .

asciilifeform: if running bot w/out a public www viewer, it prolly has no business answering commands in chan anyway

diana_coman: asciilifeform: mind giving the exact versions for flask, werkzeug and whatever other shit is used in there?

diana_coman: I have python 2.7.16 flask 1.1.1 and werkzeug 0.15.5 from what I see and the reader.py fails complaining that there is no flask.ext.cache , which seems to be again some version-shenanigans