BingoBoingo awaits the rum fountain article's annotations
BingoBoingo: Well, this was pretty much anything but unexpected
BingoBoingo: The NFS folks marketed a weird and persisted in man-aloning
BingoBoingo: The surprise is that they did not simply say node.js or fuck you, to be discovered when their announcement in the form of a leaded chicom dildo materializes on your front stoop
a111: Logged on 2019-07-17 21:57 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in
envirowhinerism noose : asciilifeform uncrated a 'window' type air conditioner to help in torture room; and found 1) cost ~2x than last time bought one 2) plastered with 'explosion hazard' warnings. apparently europistan banned ~all~ freons, new-type, old type, and as result EVERYONE gets cooling compressors fulla... butane. 3) internal insulation is... styrofoam. the white,
a111: Logged on 2019-07-17 15:41 diana_coman: I'm waiting on trinque to find out really.
trinque: it'd be entirely appropriate to move to a model where the src is in the same tree.
trinque: I also think you folks vastly underestimate the amount of labor that's going to take.
trinque: cuntoo genesis is raaaather tiny, and was intended to express what's necessary to capture
trinque: yes, now graft in the src as territory is actually captured
☟︎☟︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-17 14:10 asciilifeform: the current kernel is <2MB. and prolly trimmable further. boot to shell in 3sec or so.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-17 13:22 asciilifeform: however it only provides 'uclibc' (and not musl, as prev. noted.)
trinque: diana_coman: might not even be that hard to replace the unpacking step in emerge with some "copy from pressed vtree" step
a111: Logged on 2019-07-16 17:28 girlattorney: well the prices are a high for my budget, will check if here there somebody that want to group buy a node in uruguay to split the cost
mp_en_viaje: the problem with your stance is tha tthey do not want your custom.
☟︎ mp_en_viaje: see the dudes standing around ? "userbase". "so how come you have no money ?" "ins'allah"
mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923443 << but of course. once precious cuntlet ends up importent into any process flow, you know for a fact it won't get undone willingly -- it's either burn it down or forget about it. (pc is this thing, you've surely seen it, the dumb chick who thinks she's got a "career" out of "following 3 ring binder". the exact other half of the dumb chick who thinks "nobody can call her a slut" because she's dressing poorly
☝︎☟︎ mp_en_viaje: the problem, of course, is that b) is still a slut, just, a very shitty one ; and a) still doesn't have a career, she just also doesn't have any friends.
mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923447 << so did linus. the problem with the behaviour standard is that pantsuit aligned agent can appear to behave sanely for lack of actual testing for any arbitrary length of time. eg, my clay pot also has behaved sanely as hammer for lo these past 3 weeks -- principally because i've not had need of any hammers 3 weeks straight.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 02:59 asciilifeform: dunno, behaved sanely for 12+ years.
mp_en_viaje: had you said "undo your process for my sake" at any point, you'd have discovered the same thing.
mp_en_viaje: this is rather why i don't really deal with entities unwilling to go outside of their standard flow, it's like an initial test. because if they don't, i know what they are, and well...
mp_en_viaje: eg -- some "self-serve" items will do table service for me, some will come over to tell me i gotta go to them, and run into the "you already walked here, now take out your pen". 100% DO NOT take out the pen, because if the precious cuntlet's dumb enough to actually march over to
whine at me about her incronssequential worldview failing in practice, she's sure as fuck not about to drop it. she's
mp_en_viaje: rather decided to
matasareanu herself all over the altar of her precious cuntlet mattering in the world.
mp_en_viaje: the fact that young girls do this a lot more than young boys, these days, is the principal reason of white man culture failure, btw.
mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923461 << gb size PATCH yes, and is forbidden. GB sized GENESIS not the same thing at all. plox to not confuse vpatch and genesis! patch says, "this is a change i'm making to an item, plox judge ~the change~. not the item. the item is taken for granted". gensis says, "this is an item i'm proposing ; please judge it".
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:09 asciilifeform: trinque: imho GB-sized vpatch makes a mockery of very concept.
mp_en_viaje: IF one does not want gb sized ~genesis~, then ONE MUST NOT USE THE ITEM. yes, usage against this is tolerated against. but the day will come when it's "sorry, your X can not interop with republic, either get rid of it or get lost yourself". and i fucking mean that, too, maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but it will fucking happen.
mp_en_viaje: because that's the very correlate of republic, and of selectivity and of changing the world, as opposed to social club.
mp_en_viaje: and so, given that we've decided "something like the item will have to exist" and also "the actual item may be just as good a starting point as anything, and in any case better than pen, blank paper, and alf's scheduler", thus therefore it follows, mandatorily and undisputably, that there will be a bunch of large genesises.
mp_en_viaje: in fact, the above is actually happening ~even today~ : "
mp_en_viaje: When version 5.6 is removed, I will have to pack up and leave. By imposing these changes, you will have lost a customer of 12 years. And probably not only one." says exactly the same thing.
mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923463 << this being why the wot system even exists : so ten dozen different worms can work together, digest mysql codebase or w/e, and produce a usable item. which yes, once it's made can be re-genesised into sanity and we can safely forget the name mysql. but until then, work.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:10 asciilifeform: even 100MB is pushing it. i dunno if i, personally, will live long enuff to read 100MB of cpp.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:11 trinque: yes, now graft in the src as territory is actually captured
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:19 asciilifeform: possibly with granular billing ('femtobitcoin per cpu cycle' even, or the like) or not, but in principle possible.
mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-14#1922400 << meanwhile the cause for this was discovered : yui.yahooapis.com/2.5.2/build/yahoo/yahoo-min.js yui.yahooapis.com/2.5.2/build/event/event-min.js yui.yahooapis.com/2.5.2/build/connection/connection-min.js all 404 ; so whatever's your timeout that's how long pages take to spuriously load.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-14 08:12 mp_en_viaje: so since thelastpsychiatrist.com went all fucking stupid (cloudflare aside, and mountain of pointless js aside, there's a spurious 1min delay before any pageload also now!), i scraped the article list both from archive page and category page, and downloaded the list.
mp_en_viaje: and what hapened's 100% what happened with "nearly free speech", linux and everyone else : they "upgraded", thereby breaking the abi, thereby destroying history -- because obviously the dead don't chase updates.
mp_en_viaje: in other such, cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html now dead.
ave1: 4096-bit RSA key, ID 14D30364, created 2017-05-18 "ave--"
ave1: mp_en_viaje: sticky keyboard or mouse
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: make me a shared hosting account with wp installed please; bill it for one year and let me know if there's something else you need from me
diana_coman: it turns out mulling will have to do its thing while action goes on.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: in case you need it: the domain name for it is younghands.club
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: ty, will get you set up today
girlattorney: i saw also he was here on irc a couple of years ago
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 05:37 mp_en_viaje: the problem with your stance is tha tthey do not want your custom.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 05:42 mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923443 << but of course. once precious cuntlet ends up importent into any process flow, you know for a fact it won't get undone willingly -- it's either burn it down or forget about it. (pc is this thing, you've surely seen it, the dumb chick who thinks she's got a "career" out of "following 3 ring binder". the exact other half of the dumb chick who thinks "nobody can call her a slut" because she's dressing poorly
trinque: this "gb genesis is fine" thing comes as a surprise.
trinque: in light of years of threads on the subj.
trinque: my intent here was to have the vtree read as a history of the items as they have been understood, not as "here's the wad of shit diana_coman needed one day so we put it all in and signed it"
☟︎ trinque: we agree the work isn't done, but I fundamentally disagree that gb genesis is the move
☟︎ diana_coman: trinque: the trouble is that you need to start from somewhere and that somewhere is "this wad of shit"
trinque: moreover it would've been great to have someone raise this objection when I was posting alphas of the thing for months
diana_coman: so how do you suggest to start? because even if I have this ebuild, I can't patch it because effectively, no sources so what am I patching exactly, just the ebuild script? how does that help?
trinque: I told you what work would be necessary to make having the src in the tree do anything in the last thread.
☟︎ trinque: "fuck you I deal only in platonic ideals" is not a way of interfacing with the world
☟︎ trinque: there are several changes to portage that'd have to happen before it's going to build any src you make part of that tree
trinque: diana_coman: did you yet read, understand, clean, and swear to the foregoing re: curl?
diana_coman: trinque: my experience is that portage will happily build sources that are locally in /cuntoo/distribution (iirc.); so I don't understand re "won't build"
diana_coman: trinque: not cleaned no, not swearing either; hence mp_en_viaje 's earlier observation that I'm not vpatching but genesising and those are different precisely because genesis is a place to start (be it a wad of shit) not "this thing I can swear to "
trinque: mk, so anything we don't feel like reading we just cram into the genesis for our children to swim in
☟︎ diana_coman: I want however A genesis from where to be able to start
diana_coman: you know, I went into this+curl because you said oh noez, nobody is doing ebuilds etc
trinque: sure. and if you disagree with my incrementalism, that's fine too.
trinque: we did exactly "here are the filthy deps we don't understand and will probably abandon" in trb, recall
trinque: if you can graft in an understood curl somewhere ~and~ get portage to use that src I'll applaud
diana_coman: trinque: I suppose I don't *understand* the incrementalism you see there; because there isn't something I can follow "from this genesis he did this vpatch cutting that out etc"
diana_coman: or is your objection to using V for verifiable-incrementalism or what
trinque: my objection is that nobody here knew how to build a linux aside perhaps 3 folks.
☟︎☟︎ trinque: my first step was to enumerate the wads of ??? needed
trinque: now someone can read the genesis and know what goes into the recipe
trinque: from there, yeah, learn about curl
trinque: learn about runit or hell glibc
trinque: but having crammed them all into the genesis ruins the "what's a linux" overview
☟︎☟︎ diana_coman: but enumeration is not "know what wads goes" , how does this work? how is "a wad called soandso" enough?
trinque: so as I said, if you can now vpatch in an ~understood~ curl, do it, and make portage build it, and show me how
trinque: diana_coman: I'm going to have to leave. my final point is that this "do it all perfectly and yesterday" is a great way to never go anywhere
☟︎ diana_coman: and precisely what you are throwing back that "oh, but you want the shit in the genesis,no!"
diana_coman: as I get it, you want genesis to be only something-perfectly-understood; that is the perfection that is not possible and that nobody is asking for
trinque: I mean, if it's what's wanted, somebody else step up, and I'll trash the item I made.
trinque: asciilifeform: I really don't care what the perfectly preserved historic curl was, so long as the revised item passed through a single human head in my wot
diana_coman: trinque: ftr there is no talk whatsoever of trashing the item you made, no idea where that came from
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:53 trinque: "fuck you I deal only in platonic ideals" is not a way of interfacing with the world
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:04 trinque: but having crammed them all into the genesis ruins the "what's a linux" overview
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 05:50 mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923456 << yes but trb was last worked upon i dun even recall, 2015 ? when we decided we have to fix everything else first. in between then and now, medical science made some progress
a111: Logged on 2017-02-26 18:01 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS!
a111: Logged on 2017-02-23 23:52 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS!
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:03 trinque: my objection is that nobody here knew how to build a linux aside perhaps 3 folks.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:52 trinque: we agree the work isn't done, but I fundamentally disagree that gb genesis is the move
diana_coman: asciilifeform: as far as I understand it, trinque's algo is
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923467 aka in a way the precise opposite: we don't actually have cuntoo at all; we have (genesised) just a map and the rest is a sort of "for illustration purpose only"
☝︎☟︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:11 trinque: yes, now graft in the src as territory is actually captured
diana_coman: fwiw, taking the above view, I can fully see his despair at "but why don't you have the sources in there?" ; the only puzzler is how exactly does he see the above as more practical and pragmatic than the plain "this wad of shit is what cuntoo is atm, worms and mud and all"
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:51 trinque: my intent here was to have the vtree read as a history of the items as they have been understood, not as "here's the wad of shit diana_coman needed one day so we put it all in and signed it"
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:53 trinque: I told you what work would be necessary to make having the src in the tree do anything in the last thread.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-14 22:25 trinque: diana_coman: congrats. the next step would be to produce a vpatch which adds your curl ebuild atop the genesis.vpatch the bootstrapper produced.
mp_en_viaje: just up and start "telling what work" in trilema, ESPECIALLY seeing how you've not so far done such an impressive job "telling what work" in #trinque, so as to, for instance, rescue ben_vulpes from his grave.
☟︎ mp_en_viaje: you're aware of this flow, are you ? i allocated him to you so that he becomes more like you, not so that you become more like him.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 06:45 mp_en_viaje: leaving aside how a rate of progress of 0 items / week for week after week after livelong week puts extremely low demands on my time and attention -- far, far from requiring it be a central locus of my focus, republican 2019 as seen so far would have worked just as well if i gave it an hour biweekly, and i don't mean twice a week, i mean every other week -- there's just no need to keep the engine running on big brutus for the "j
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:58 trinque: mk, so anything we don't feel like reading we just cram into the genesis for our children to swim in
mp_en_viaje: all discussion to shock and surprise aside, this is the fuck exactly how trb genesis happened, too. nobody wrote a good one, just picked an actual one and genesis'd that.
mp_en_viaje: and yes, it included fucking bdb, as well as all sorts of stupid crap, which no, nobody swore to this very day ; not because nobody read, either. nor do i expect anyone will ever swear to bdb trb component.
☟︎ mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923558 << hash reference is useless for this purpose, because of the very meaning of a hash -- you can't get the hashed source back out of it. the hash worked well enough for trb because ~everyone has ~all versions and so it's a narrow and well documented domain. the hash will not work (and, experimentally, in plenty of cases you weren't involved with, failed to work, because the domain is 2+ degrees of magnitude v
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:00 trinque: we did it by hash reference
mp_en_viaje: ast-er, and nobody stores it all, quite deliberately, because everyone fucking hates it, not loves it like they love bitcoin.
mp_en_viaje:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923563 << you keep struggling with this issue, and it's unseemly. looky, you didn't invent computers. you weren't there when ken thompson shocked himself on the pdp or when richie papercut himself with the unix manual or when etcetera. you're fifth generation, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. plenty of people hacked away at linux or at unix or at whatever the fuck else back when you were installing l
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:03 trinque: my objection is that nobody here knew how to build a linux aside perhaps 3 folks.
mp_en_viaje: ego bricks around the house. this doesn't make them some kind of magic gurus, nor does it make your own understanding of the systems and processes involved somehow inconsequential. why does it constantly have to come back to this purely psychogenic, oh, nobody reads, oh, nobody can sit down a kernel, whatever the hell ? it's just not a way to go about things, nobody's achievement is diminishing your own nor does your achievement necessarily require
mp_en_viaje: i can see his pov too, the only problem is that he picks some utterly terrible approaches.
mp_en_viaje: there's this strange habit in many places in eastern europe, including romania, where peasant houses, even two room houses, get a "front room" which is never lived in. the family deposits "the good stuff" there, never uses it, goes in for two hours a year during easter or w/e.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 14:13 diana_coman: asciilifeform: as far as I understand it, trinque's algo is
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923467 aka in a way the precise opposite: we don't actually have cuntoo at all; we have (genesised) just a map and the rest is a sort of "for illustration purpose only"
mp_en_viaje: whatever its merits from a religious pov, it's fucking insanely inconvenient. what am i supposed to say here, "oh, now that we have v, let's not use it, and instead work on everything outside of v" ? and what... let's design... u, for preparatory work for v ? and what, make it different from v /
mp_en_viaje: i might be wrong, but as far as i can see portage will work just fine on a pressed pile of code.
mp_en_viaje: i dunno dood, part of the problem of this is that until we see it we haven't seen it.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, it's entirely possible we'll end up with a ~pile~ of genesises.
☟︎ mp_en_viaje: and phf's drop down list is getting crowded
mp_en_viaje: in other sads, Berlekamp bit it back in april apparently.
mp_en_viaje: that, incidentally, is the worst stone to swallow, for me. say what i might about "oh, symbolics/whatever people were idiots", sure, why not. but these guys, they FUCKING TRIED getting math torch passed. and i know of no way it could've been done better.
mp_en_viaje: supposedly there's always to whom. but ... in practice...
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 14:57 mp_en_viaje: and yes, it included fucking bdb, as well as all sorts of stupid crap, which no, nobody swore to this very day ; not because nobody read, either. nor do i expect anyone will ever swear to bdb trb component.
mp_en_viaje: at the time there wasn't the need. notice how all the destructoforks happened just about the time we announced v.
mp_en_viaje: was multi pronged, there's me having meltdowns over eulora not compiling either, and so on.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-17 12:25 asciilifeform: the incident where i glued together rk pilot plant, to only ~then~ find out that nobody knows when the fuck proper gnat will actually build arm binaries w/ working threading, was instructive.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-26 15:03 mp_en_viaje: basically a novel vector of imperial attack seems to be this "let's take republican items and ~EXPAND~ the downstream so that siberian river attack is then feasible".
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:04 trinque: but having crammed them all into the genesis ruins the "what's a linux" overview
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 15:18 mp_en_viaje: there's this strange habit in many places in eastern europe, including romania, where peasant houses, even two room houses, get a "front room" which is never lived in. the family deposits "the good stuff" there, never uses it, goes in for two hours a year during easter or w/e.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:05 trinque: diana_coman: I'm going to have to leave. my final point is that this "do it all perfectly and yesterday" is a great way to never go anywhere
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, well, any detailed specifics ?
mp_en_viaje: wh ythe fuck are our selections different ?!
mp_en_viaje: the dom is not stable enough to have meaningful count!
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, aha, i have a bunch of them ~same reason
mp_en_viaje: cig metal tubes pretty good for all sorta uses. decent butt dildo in a pinch too.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:34 asciilifeform: certainly has NOT 'stood in place since 2015' tho. i would not want to use the trb of '15 in preference to the current.
mp_en_viaje: which is why we're working on build toolchains and kernels and whatnot, in lieu of, eg, trbfs.
mp_en_viaje: this extensive travel is going to make finding shit in a few years SO fucking painful. "i wonder, did i say mircea_popescu ? mp_en_viaje ?"...
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 14:46 mp_en_viaje: just up and start "telling what work" in trilema, ESPECIALLY seeing how you've not so far done such an impressive job "telling what work" in #trinque, so as to, for instance, rescue ben_vulpes from his grave.
mp_en_viaje: well, the reason i don't really know what's going on would be that... never said.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 00:43 ben_vulpes: and so the girlies shack up with other girlies, the boys retire to secular onasteries, and they all think it precisely tits.
a111: Logged on 2019-05-08 23:20 asciilifeform: grr i was gonna add that famous lathe meat-wind pic to this thread, but cannot nao find.
mp_en_viaje: do you recall that arguably famous-er pic of the guy on the er table with hips turning cyanotic hugging a telephone pole up his ass ?
☟︎ mp_en_viaje: in other horrible news : it's confirmed, the selection thing is ~~~BROWSER SPECIFIC~~~
mp_en_viaje: the fucking cuntheaded imbecile anti fucking human MORONS made it so you can't, actually, have in-page reference that works reliably.
mp_en_viaje: selection thing works by counting dom elements, and, guess the fuck what, different browsers build the thing differently, resulting in different counts.
☟︎ mp_en_viaje: what if i want to select the third duck in duckduckduck ?
mp_en_viaje: this completely the fuck fucked me over thoyugh, 100+ links, hand picked all, now useless.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, so your idea is, recursive search ? user selects "duck" in abcduckefg, the script tries "c" sees if unique, if yes uses, if not tries bc, if unique uses if not abc etc ?
☟︎ mp_en_viaje: should prolly compress, to avoid comma in url.
mp_en_viaje: who else is there, billymg ? Mocky ? either of you got a moment to do this ?
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, if you compress, now stuck putting lzw, in js, on every page
mp_en_viaje: now you're stuck with "how will fucktardedbrowser display"
mp_en_viaje: local "select" behaviour is always defined, but afaik there's no exposed "make it look selected" call
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, of course, if one's doing server side no need to grep, count start, count end
mp_en_viaje: the dom construction / abomination varies, but my articles are still mysql fields, unchanged
mp_en_viaje: in continuing sads : /me attempted to spec the server side php job ; and it can be done, roughly, there exist primitives for, eg, "insert this after nth word and that after mth word". however : a) this interferes with the footnotes, because footnotes exist as z (( b)) and not as displayed on page ; and b) there's no good way to # and ? at the same time because of the way trilema handles title-urls.
mp_en_viaje: a ((b)) c ((d)) appears as a b --- c d on-page.
mp_en_viaje: and there's also no way to have trilema.com/article-title/?start=5&end=7#selection
mp_en_viaje: can has trilema.com/article-title/?start=5&end=7 OR trilema.com/article-title/#selection but not rly both.
☟︎ diana_coman gave all computers around work to do for the next hours so she goes happily to sleep.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, that'll never work though, because obviously it'll try to find an article by that name
mp_en_viaje: afaik the name's hacked into an article via htaccess, which is yet another pointless and poorly specified scripting lang atop the shit tower
mp_en_viaje: well, here's the thing -- IF you move the "extract data from uri" into php, you lose... url replacement.
mp_en_viaje: the ~only~ way to have that indirection layer, is to use htaccess
mp_en_viaje: i mean obviously one could modify apache to be less fucked in the head, but ...
mp_en_viaje: as things stand, the ~only~ way to have user think url is "trilema/pili" while url really is trilema?p=65 or w/e it truly is, is via htaccess, which is like javascript written by monkeys in 1980
mp_en_viaje: in theory you could possibly htccess script-fu something like domain/a/b/c into domain?q=a&w=b&e=c ; HOWEVER, the problem is the domain space is currently narrow.
mp_en_viaje: in fact, it might be the one thing on the web i most use.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, it does not load, it just wipes your string
mp_en_viaje: tjhis, incidentally, is EXACTLY how tower of shit was even built in the first palce
mp_en_viaje: now ima tell someone "look what weird shit we found, USE IT" and they won't dare say "why"
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:51 asciilifeform: trinque: it's 'gordian knot' that has to be cut ~somehow~. consider, as of yet asciilifeform cannot vtronicize that kernel patch, cuz... no kernel genesis.
trinque: I started from an item that was 900mb and that was just the ebuild tree.
trinque: not having to be able to read vpatches is, lets say retrospectively declarative.
trinque: at the very least I'd want to say "this is the one with kernel in it"
BingoBoingo: So, it appears Iran took two British ships and released one with a warning.
☟︎ trinque: at any rate no, I'm not doing a man-month of rework on the thing any time soon. not standing in the way of anyone else doing it either.