tmsr - Log 2019-04-03

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906568 << ah nothing like that, yest sat down for excellent thai. today breakfast at trad biergarten etc. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-02 19:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906557 << oh hah. asciilifeform only been there coupla times, but never got to uncrate lappy, was always '100 metre sprint' from plane to plane

mp_en_viaje is enjoying all the little things he knew he missed. such as you know, the god damned water.

mp_en_viaje was getting well sick and tired of san pelegrino, also. bs 2nd tier mineral water took over the world on the quiet.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906570 << no argument that it's expensive (incidentally /me is fully aware, did professional stint in typo, asylum was printed on trad webpress process after a setting by yours truly for example). but by the same hand i'm aware it must be done and is worth doing. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-02 19:35 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906560 << it aint that i've anyffin against 'civilized' typography (tho prolly oughta admit, errything outside of graphical www on my boxen is displayed in exactly fixed-bitmap lettering) . simply gotta point out that 'fit 3 l where 1 w goes' is a luxury of sorts, costs moar moving parts than folx who never tried to implement it are typically aware of

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906572 << this is true, and good point, most of the time tha tq pops up you're stuck on a reorg or somesuch. trad bitcoin is ~horrible~ re propagation, will not propagate for all sorta bs reasons. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-02 19:37 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906563 << the 1 gotcha, is that if you (or peers) are wedged (genuinely wedged, on db grind; or peers wedged; or stuck on island in sea of prb; or... buncha documented , in log, cases ) then will get exactly 'where the fuck is my tx' errytime

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906576 << hey, turned tv on hre to see what's new (hreby patented http://trilema.com/2009/doua-curve/#selection-33.144-33.241 process) and was impressed on first pass, "whoa, check out da tedeschi, 1k+ channels hotel tv!!!" ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-02 19:46 asciilifeform: iirc , last i looked, <0.1% of what answers on 8333 even remotely resembles actual node

mp_en_viaje: then one got out of the dozen-cloud of rtl-*, prosieben / etc and discovered past #50 or so it's mostly derpy sports / other specialist channels all 20-30 airing the same "genius" late night cable marketing (exact same, why the fuck do you need multiple channels for same bs ? cuz it's spam, true and proper), and then tons of arabic channels which either put out cheap cartoons (qatar) or else broken transmission or w/e, and then past #100 it turne

mp_en_viaje: the thousand+ turned out to be the exact dozen-and-a-half i remember from the 80s, ie EXACTLY http://trilema.com/2017/fake-news-are-just-one-tail-of-the-failed-female-state/ problem.

mp_en_viaje: but at least i found out theresa may has meanwhile solved the problem -- she'll just ask for a new delay in front of some cheap looking, chinese-made union jacks and behind the derpiest drawing of the queen's crest i ever did see.

mp_en_viaje: the united kingdom looks more and more like a parody channel on chinese television, "the island of buran" or something.

mp_en_viaje: also, guiao or w/e dork in current ukraine is well and truly fucked, isn't he ? (meanwhile i saw some random comedian won 1st round for presidency in previous ukraine, imaginary usg.blue concoction both) ☟︎

mp_en_viaje: anyway, to get back to the typographical discussion more substantially : there's an important difference between natural and synthetic language at work. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 17:09 mircea_popescu: natural language, however, ablates the trees for "convenience" so to speak, ie, uses commonly what's known in computing as sparse trees.

mp_en_viaje: specifically : in natural language, the word is the meaning unit, and it is remembered and parsed as such by the reader portion of the brain. thus http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587276 ; but thus also "airy" characters are TERRIBLE : they suggest wordbreak (which is space) and fuck up the cache to the degree this can cost say 3x slowdown. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 18:32 mircea_popescu: because no, words don't "have meanings". your meanings for ANY WORD are a function of ALL THE OTHER WORDS YOU KNOW. which is why my definitions regularily blow out english dictionaries, wikipedia and other sources of "wisdom" out of the water - i know more words, and in this knowledge i know all the words i know ~better~. infinitely and irreproducibly so.

mp_en_viaje: meanwhile, in synthetic language, character is the meaning unit, and it is fucking important the function named lil allings with the word www. OR FUCKING ELSE, gott knows we have enough byte errors even without importing a whole new pile of idiocy capable of multiplying them 3x by variable-length that confuses the eye.

mp_en_viaje: so both modes are valid and important, no argument whatsoever of joining them. but i can not, physically, read the shit i read (and belive you me, i ~read~) in fixed point. i'd rather fucking hang. ☟︎

feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/zece-mii-de-kilometri-de-filme-or-ten-thousand-kilometers-worth-of-movies-either-way/ << Trilema -- Zece mii de kilometri de filme, or Ten Thousand Kilometers' worth of movies. Either way.

mp_en_viaje: oh by the way, ima be checking out the munchen bitcoin club thingee, https://www.meetup.com/Bitcoin-Munich/ item later today.

diana_coman: the tv channels discovery sounds precisely like my early 90's discovery where naive-me thought at first that channel with only X meant they never repeated the stuff.

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906563 , http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906572 <-- was thinking about the same, that txen should diffuse quickly; but then there I was waiting for >1hr at the 4th or so tx sent, and when I looked again it magically propagated *and* got confirmed. why this and none of the previous 3, no idea (one of them had higher tx fee, even) ☝︎☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-02 18:24 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906547 << in principle sub-minute with "whatever" arrangement, sub-second achievable if you baby your network connections.

a111: Logged on 2019-04-02 20:26 feedbot: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/04/signature-for-spykeds-keccak-regrind-of-logbot_command_router_python_genesis/ << lobbesblog -- Signature for spyked's Keccak regrind of logb...esis

spyked: !Qlater tell trinque could pl0x look at deedbot deposits when you get the time? fyi, I started two !!deposit and only did the latter; can cancel the former, I'll redo it later if needed ☟︎

lobbesbot: spyked: The operation succeeded.

spyked: upstack, re. tx propagation voodoo: the good part about this is that it got me into reading trb code and logs re bitcoin and trb. will be back to feedbotworks, but I'll say, this has been instructive ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906616 << this is a well-known effect ( most famously, possibly involved in how 'bitbet' burned down ) and i've personally observed it erry single time i sent coin in past coupla yrs . tx dun move until you send a conflicting tx . why the miners do this -- i still do not know ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 08:36 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906563 , http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906572 <-- was thinking about the same, that txen should diffuse quickly; but then there I was waiting for >1hr at the 4th or so tx sent, and when I looked again it magically propagated *and* got confirmed. why this and none of the previous 3, no idea (one of them had higher tx fee, even)

asciilifeform: it's riotously obnoxious and erry time i encounter it , cements in my head the 'mining is a bug'

asciilifeform: strangely enuff, larger fee (in asciilifeform's observations) dun seem to make any diff

asciilifeform: so far the closest thing i have to a hypothesis, is that the fattest chinese want you to issue a set of conflicting tx so the thinner ones end up with longer invalidated chains ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: ( that, and/or they want moar churn, i.e. moar fee, when you gotta send N tx where previously 1 would have sufficed )

asciilifeform: i dun have the mempool observatory node working yet, so am currently unable to say whether this is widespread problem or asciilifeform simply 'got lucky' errytime ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906605 << i entirely agree that reading human text in typewriter chars is painful. gotta point out tho , that 'truetype' monstrosity is not justified thereby, it is possible to have horizontally-variable bitmap font (simply store the # of horiz. pixels as matrix , for 'kerning' space , and otherwise same ) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 04:15 mp_en_viaje: so both modes are valid and important, no argument whatsoever of joining them. but i can not, physically, read the shit i read (and belive you me, i ~read~) in fixed point. i'd rather fucking hang.

asciilifeform: iirc that's how the bolix people did it ( 2 fonts on the machine , 1 - typewriter, 1 - horiz. variable )

asciilifeform: imho the 'machine has 9000 fonts and each 1 is a gnarly proggy for turing-complete ball of 1m+loc c turd' is quite similar to the 'american shop where 9000 brands of toothpaste and each 1 fulla corn syrop' thing

BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906599 << Indeed. Can't even get Maduro to arrest him. China's got their Army Liberation People on the ground and in uniform handing out aid. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 04:08 mp_en_viaje: also, guiao or w/e dork in current ukraine is well and truly fucked, isn't he ? (meanwhile i saw some random comedian won 1st round for presidency in previous ukraine, imaginary usg.blue concoction both)

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/04/english-judge-i-cannot-think-of-any-more-obviously-fundamental-human-right-than-the-right-of-a-man-to-have-sex-with-his-wife/ << Qntra -- English Judge: "I Cannot Think Of Any More Obviously Fundamental Human Right Than The Right Of A Man To Have Sex With His Wife"

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << to expand on this: say you issued tx1 where input i and output o1. he sees it, it goes to back of queue, as uninteresting, he does not mine it himself, but does relay to competitors. but if you also issue a and tx2, where input i and output o2, o2 != o1 , ~then~ tx2 goes to front of his queue, as by mining it he can throw caltrop to the competing miners , invalidating their chain ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 14:58 asciilifeform: so far the closest thing i have to a hypothesis, is that the fattest chinese want you to issue a set of conflicting tx so the thinner ones end up with longer invalidated chains

asciilifeform: the 1 obv. hole in the hypothesis is that often enuff it is ~tx1~ that gets mined when tx2 is broadcase.

asciilifeform: tho it is not necessarily evidence against it, could simply mean that 'fat miner' lost the race in that particular case to a runner-up

asciilifeform: elementary napkin gametheoretical arithm suggests that it is always +ev to mine a tx for which you know a conflicting one has been issued , vs. 1 for which you do not know of one , ~if~ you think you have better connectivity (i.e. more likely to be the 1st to see the split) than other miners ( and i suspect that each of'em thinks he has best connectivity, somehow )

asciilifeform: ... if indeed this is happening, it may also explain some of the churn liquishit that they pad blocks with -- if he cannot find a tx1-tx2 pair in the wild, then... why not generate himself.

asciilifeform: ( trivially, generating a tx 'to self' only costs you anyffin if ~someone else~ mines it )

BingoBoingo: I suspect a large portion of the junk nodes might simply not be relaying transactions.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: this is entirely separate q from the 'i sent tx1 and no one mines but then sent tx2 and bang'

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: unless , i suppose, you know of some prb variant that in fact preferentially relays 'double spends'

BingoBoingo: Well, if the USG has a fleet I don't know why they wouldn't prefer to propagate double spends

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: prb ~does~ iirc have a lulzy notion that it can somehow prefer 1 tx in an n-spend tuple ~in mempool~ as 'the real tx' (the protocol offers no such mechanism, of course, tx dun contain anyffin to tie it to e.g. leading block when-issued , only a promisetronic timestamp that can equal whatever the issuer wants)

asciilifeform: that being said, none of the prb's asciilifeform dissected to date, appeared to contain any mechanism that would preferentially propagate a tx in an n-spend set vs 'ordinary'

asciilifeform: therefore i suspect specifically the miners, for whom by a certain set of prior this idiocy appears +ev

asciilifeform: granted , it is impossible to say what exactly the 9000 garbage 'nodes' are running, it could be a published prb , or just about anyffin else entirely.

asciilifeform: for all i know, even mempool observatory would not necessarily tell you, there is 0 to stop a usg node from relaying one notional mempool to 1 peer and another to another, based on ???

asciilifeform: i'd be quite curious to hear what trinque says about all of this; i expect today he does the most on-chain work of anyone here ☟︎

diana_coman: asciilifeform: from what I understood though, spyked said he could not see his transaction relayed even

asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i virtually never saw any of mine on bci & similar heathen www, until mined ☟︎

asciilifeform: diana_coman: must admit, currently i have massive hole of mystery where 'how and where does trb tx propagage' oughta be. is why last autumn i sat down & wrote (most of) a fairly gnarly proggy to try & map out node zoology & mempool dynamics. but sadly on hold presently, not enuff hands

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 06:36 diana_coman: ersten und originalen Stammtisch - at least it's at a biergarten I hope

diana_coman: ahahha mp_en_viaje that was rather to be expected given the ersten und originalen und-only-talkin' www

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 08:43 spyked: upstack, re. tx propagation voodoo: the good part about this is that it got me into reading trb code and logs re bitcoin and trb. will be back to feedbotworks, but I'll say, this has been instructive

mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, very fucking to be expected indeed. the problem is still, almost a decade later, that bitcoin "enthusiasm" is pretty much code for "we'll shock you with how inept we are".

asciilifeform pictures mp_en_viaje posting from the pub pictured in '17 moments of spring', complete with the oddball jukebox

diana_coman: that being said, I actually had a nice time at various biergartens fwiw - obv, with people "brought from home" as it were so I don't know it had much to do with the *garten itself

mp_en_viaje: in this particular case, they picked a place on fucking bavariaring. how shall i explain what this is... basically every real town has a spot of land kept fallow on purpose to do things like i dunno, let a passin circus pitch tents there, right ? or whatever other large but dirty activity like that, yes.

mp_en_viaje: in real civilised places, that community acre is more like a few sqmiles, and they are surrounded by road. in munchen, road is called bavariaring.

mp_en_viaje: ie, the circular connector to frankfurt is frankfurtring, and so this being also a ring but not really connecting to a town... they gave it god's name as it were.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: in 'red' usa (virginia & south-er) they have these, it's where the people with carpets fulla 2ndhand guns set up coupla-x/yr

mp_en_viaje: and people working at #10 theresinhohe had NEVER HEARD of the public house supposedly located at #15.

mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, went then to boozy brunch at lowenbrau keller (big deal landmark here).

asciilifeform: diana_coman, spyked : at this pt , 5 yrs in, i'm satisfied that i understand how ~trb~ pushes tx; problem lies in the zoo of ??? 'nodes', what do ~they~ do with it.

mp_en_viaje: the food was ok, but the service kinda meh. i dunno, they have a problem here it seems with not hirin genough waiters.

diana_coman now admits she has purposefully kept away from Munchen for quite a few years now in order to not spoil earlier pleasant recollections of it...

mp_en_viaje: but anyway, what the fuck is wrong with picking the prestige coffee house of the town for your bitcoin meet ?

mp_en_viaje: i marched the girls for ~4 hours through historic downtown, tryina find one. found none.

mp_en_viaje: got motorized, drove >100 mi to find one, going by list of historic big deal whatever in special printed, inch thick bookler.

mp_en_viaje: fucktards here, their coffee houses, in the rare instances they have seating, have fucking wood benches and stools and shit.

mp_en_viaje: i have nfi how this works, i NEVER saw a car here with wooden bench inside and fuck you. they understand what chairs are, every bank, every god damned nothing-in-particular shop has proper chairs in there. they have furniture shops selling actual chairs.

mp_en_viaje: but in a coffeehouse it's apparently reglement verboten to have a chair with a back higher than your hips, or padded.

mp_en_viaje: ended up going to hang out in my hotel lounge, in part precipitated by cabdriver declaring nec plus ultram in coffeehouse luxury the... lounge of another, cheaper hotel.

mp_en_viaje: which yes, being furnished from the hotel-magazine, as opposed to the apparent coffeehouse-verboenbuche, contains sane human seating.

diana_coman: tbf cafes for me -> Austria rather than Germany (which esp Bavaria -> biergarten -and that comes with annoying sitting, yes- what cafe)

mp_en_viaje: but yes that was the explanatory theory we came up with, since they socialize over beer it then therefore follows they don't socialize over coffee and that's an end to it. could for the same money complain there's no teahouse with proper samovar in zanzibar.

mp_en_viaje: it's just fucking weird, to not do it AT ALL. i mean cosmopolitan literally means, "which includes alt-stream competence"

mp_en_viaje: i'm not saying they all have to participate or any insane shit like that. but if they can have 500 hypovereisbank offices, they could have ONE coffee house. for those incomprehensible weirdos who go there, what of it.

mp_en_viaje: anyway, server girly was very interested from the margins of the going ons on the harem table.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906632 << i have no confidence in tghe truetype/whatevr "standards", a lot of actual experience with both empire and alt-empire standards guts has cured me for three lifetimes. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 15:05 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906605 << i entirely agree that reading human text in typewriter chars is painful. gotta point out tho , that 'truetype' monstrosity is not justified thereby, it is possible to have horizontally-variable bitmap font (simply store the # of horiz. pixels as matrix , for 'kerning' space , and otherwise same )

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906624 << because cemented in "standard practices" because it has to be because for political reasons had to pretend it was at some point because etcetera. ~same reason basketball players wear wifebeater-cut tops and soccer players wear t-shirt tops. could very well be backwards, but isn't because etcetera. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 14:54 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906616 << this is a well-known effect ( most famously, possibly involved in how 'bitbet' burned down ) and i've personally observed it erry single time i sent coin in past coupla yrs . tx dun move until you send a conflicting tx . why the miners do this -- i still do not know

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << think : if this worked you;d know because conflicting tx would be 9000% of the mempool, because chinese fatty dun need you for anything, casn produce conflicts by his self. ☝︎☟︎

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906637 << another shining success by usg.blue, those bright chaps whose disdain at http://btcbase.org/log/2014-05-04#659152 is so very withering, as it comes from such higi loci of intellectual superiority and cultural overwhelm. ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 15:33 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906599 << Indeed. Can't even get Maduro to arrest him. China's got their Army Liberation People on the ground and in uniform handing out aid.

a111: Logged on 2014-05-04 19:03 ozbot: White House Correspondents' Dinner 2014 -- Live Blog

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906640 << there is almost no case where mining n tx is better than mining n+1. some miners do multi-hashing, where they mine different blocks (generally, off-by-one tx blocks) on varios chunks of their farms (mostly because of naive chinese-like notions re chance), but this is not that. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 17:13 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << to expand on this: say you issued tx1 where input i and output o1. he sees it, it goes to back of queue, as uninteresting, he does not mine it himself, but does relay to competitors. but if you also issue a and tx2, where input i and output o2, o2 != o1 , ~then~ tx2 goes to front of his queue, as by mining it he can throw caltrop to the competing miners , invalidating their chain

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906661 << i do not believe so ; not in the sense he does not do a lot. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 17:39 asciilifeform: i'd be quite curious to hear what trinque says about all of this; i expect today he does the most on-chain work of anyone here

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906663 << i see ~daily. incl today, bchain.info had within second o frelay. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 19:23 asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i virtually never saw any of mine on bci & similar heathen www, until mined

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906734 << notion wasn't that parellel-mine of n, but that 'feed old tx1 to peers, while mine new tx2 that conflicts so to hose'em' ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 20:20 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906640 << there is almost no case where mining n tx is better than mining n+1. some miners do multi-hashing, where they mine different blocks (generally, off-by-one tx blocks) on varios chunks of their farms (mostly because of naive chinese-like notions re chance), but this is not that.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906728 << see downthread -- it is entirely possible that they ~are~ (and indeed 'dun need you, he can make own', was noted in thrd) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 20:11 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << think : if this worked you;d know because conflicting tx would be 9000% of the mempool, because chinese fatty dun need you for anything, casn produce conflicts by his self.

asciilifeform: also gotta note, i did not posit that it 'works' (in the sense of 'they make bank'), only that 'they think it worx' ( a la spam )

asciilifeform: a good % of what those folx do, i suspect can only be explained via 'spam logic'

mp_en_viaje: obv works on yokels, but ultimately extracting ~all tx of which any node ever talked t o another node is trivial.

mp_en_viaje: there is tension in this question -- inasmuch as declaring your computer TWO computers arbitrarily, and then discussing the safety of the talk over this imaginary boundry is a purely abstract exerise.

asciilifeform: was aboutta add -- from pov of external observer (i.e. has no moles) a 'miner cartelnet' will simply look like 'miner with n public intakes'

asciilifeform: the 'who lives at what ip' is entirely red herring, only the actual 'smoke from the fire' is at all informative, re heuristic 'who is miner' -- who seems to show up with new blox before others ? who takes shortest interval b/w getting a tx and it ends in a block ? etc

asciilifeform: even then, entirely possible for even modestly clever operator to insert artificial delays, to confuse the probe

mp_en_viaje: C. "i am safe from missile strike, my cellphone inserts rnd(0,C) error re position on each call"

asciilifeform: still remains the case that good % of what is typically thought of as the protocol, is actually promise ( i.e. it is trivial for a constructed noad to feed 'allcomers' 1 mempool, with stale shit, while he himself mines from entirely other set, that he dun relay to anyone , etc )

mp_en_viaje: but yes. lotta what is protocol is promise. starting with "segwit" bs, i won't unearth the threads.

asciilifeform: for all i know, the heathens have moved 100% to hearn's 'pay to ip via ssl' or similar horror

mp_en_viaje: and i don't mean JUST bitcoin. think of the problem in terms of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-31#1906304 : fetlife hires engineer to add "impossible to guess" parameters to its laughingstock of a codebase. mp is unincluded in the ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-31 16:59 mircea_popescu: how else could ps code be had ?

mp_en_viaje: "impossible to guess" set, becayhse guess what, through repetition and measurement ANY parameter comes out.

mp_en_viaje: this obvious property of numbers & reality, properly baring anyone from passing out of math 101 until comprehended, nevertheless escapes all sorta ceo and other business strategists.

asciilifeform: given miners cannot 'eat entirely from own arse' and still eat tx from 'allcomer', it aint possible to maintain 'entirely logically isolated' seekrit-btc net vs 'allcomer net', verily

mp_en_viaje: ask any dood you feel like, see if he believes that "secret parameters" are a thing or not.

mp_en_viaje: this goes quite deep in its import : the outlook of contemporary man is actually very deeply ANTIscientific.

mp_en_viaje: not merely un, but outright anti. firmly believes by necessary implication that science is not actually possible in any practical sense.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: not only this, but the disease progresses , afaik, in direct proportion to how much exposure to programming

a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 22:09 asciilifeform: i think aristotle actually had , sadly, correct notion, where doing some kinds of work actually makes you dumber

mp_en_viaje: or to women in theworkplace, or to earth science, or to "futurism", or to wikipedia, or to etcetera.

asciilifeform: it is the programmers, i suspect, and not even the earthfeminists, who are at the forefront of 'climbing back into the trees' in this sense

a111: 67 results for "sussman", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=sussman

mp_en_viaje: it is problem of chthonic culture, so yes it just re-infects itself. the disease of contemporaneity expellas furcam etc.

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, could well be. unlike the programmers, the incamother worshippers ~mean well~.

a111: Logged on 2014-09-27 03:19 asciilifeform: 'You have to do basic science on your libraries to see how they work, trying out different inputs and seeing how the code reacts.'

asciilifeform: the programmers actually built themselves a parallel world where 'science dunwork' , and moved in.

mp_en_viaje: (the fundamental difference between dumb cunt and dumb dicklet is that former wants "things to be good for everyone" whereas latter wants "her to have to")

asciilifeform: typical homo programmicus living today, i suspect, will live & die without ever encountering a 1980s-style sys where 'understand from first principles' even conceptually seems like a possibility

asciilifeform: multi-mil loc. piles o'shit (and not even speaking of ~closes~ multi-mil loc, microshit etc.) go together with 'program via voodoo' like africa goes with dysentry

mp_en_viaje: and i suspect they all rest on fundamental goanga whereby "but muh sikrit parameters"

mp_en_viaje: if you examine the matter with the tools of the psychologist, you might discover contemporary notion of ~personal identity~ in anglo world actually consists of little else.

asciilifeform: i dun even have sharp enuff drill to get a picture where they ~have~ a 'notion of personal identity'

mp_en_viaje: this, incidentally, is EXACTLY what patents and copyrights were supposed to solve, and were sold on the promise of solving : the moron 1700s "engineer" dropping his "signature secret sauce" in processes. so as to thereby exist.

Mocky: only now the signature secret sauce is yellow, ala: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826821 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 16:35 asciilifeform: 'erryone hates it, all the lifts smell of piss. oh btw, where is the lift here, i gotta go'

asciilifeform: imho patents were a joke from day1, what with 'exam takers' immediately finessing the problem of 'reveal enuff to win if litigated, but not enuff to build clone'

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, yes, it failed on application, sure. but infinitely worse -- it even failed in principle!

mp_en_viaje: difference between "engine that could work if built, but can't be built until liquid plutonium available by the pondful" and "engine that is based on thermodynamic non-cycle".

asciilifeform: entirely so, fails in principle, like proggy that needs a 2 that also equals 1 sometimes

Mocky: mp_en_viaje: programmers notional personal identity seems to sum to pissing code into github

mp_en_viaje: my point was that the contemporary notion of personal identity is actually predicated on a supposed set of secret parameters, something much akin to having it predicated on spherical cubes, or alf's 2's that are also somtimes 1s.

mp_en_viaje: there can't be, you see, such a thing as a secret parameter. and this applies equally well to the "bombing stationary object" problem touched above, and to the "i will make website ban so and so after so and so" anti-mp historical fetlifish computer "engineering", and to the romcom notion of "deeply personal experience" and so following.

mp_en_viaje: the "secret mempool", the "claiming saddam has things he doesn't will forward our goals", it's an endless list. remarkably enough, it's a COMPLETE list of contemporary thought.

mp_en_viaje: ie, just did above what flaubert died trying : produced exhaustive catalog of contemporary stupidity. go me!

Mocky: well there's an entity or process that exists that can be parameterized, and so some attribute or input that process

mp_en_viaje: this is admirably circular. but let's let it lay as it fell for now, and instead look from the other end : give me an example of something some chick would regard as permitting you to distinguish her from any other.

mp_en_viaje: that'll pass. now, i propose to you that this is a parameter in the first place, in that it consists of a matter of degrees, however combined. it's entirely quantitative, there's no qualitative portion to it. and it is secret, because her belief is that another wouldn't know which valus the parameter takes, nothing else.

mp_en_viaje: so today, i took elevator in neue rathaus (it's a thing in munchen, irrelevant specifically). this involved paying a fee. the man i paid it to made change from 52 for 12 by handing me a 20 euro and a 100 euro bill.

mp_en_viaje: i said i don't think so, and held them out for his inspection. he thanked me for my kindnss, i explained it's not so much kindness as duty, and we parted amicably.

mp_en_viaje: there is a ~reason~ that google's (and, by proxy, senior brin's son's son's) genius notion of "intelligence" is ~VERY LARGE~ (if sparse) matrix of values while usg.polizeistaat's notion of "knowledge" is... ~very large~ (if sparse) matris of values (describing eg phone metadata) WHILE AT THE SAME TIME all the people involved, in either of those, and all the people the yever know or will know, firmly believe that ~my true personality~ is not in f

mp_en_viaje: act that little story i described (because "anyone could have done that") but rather the incidental ~exact number~ representin my height, or the ~exact numeric value~ of what i said in private sometime, or (as per anglo-bank logic) the string that's my mother's maiden name

mp_en_viaje: yet "those things anyone could do" are the only possible meaningful personality, specifically in that most ... do not fucking do them.

mp_en_viaje: whereas "those things no one could know" are in fact so much wind chasing, because... well duh, ~of course they could~. self-evidently they could, how the fuck not.

mp_en_viaje: the driver of the error is the desire of having a ~unique~ personality. it is not deemed sufficient, by contemporary man, to merely have the same personality as the entire tableau of orthodox saints. there's too many of those, see. gotta be unique. as it can't be unique and meaningful at te same time (think, can it ?)... all that's left is the getting-drunk-on-tapwater "secret parameters". ☟︎

Mocky: I see what you mean by the driver of the error, but I don't see how height, numeric value etc. have to do with personality.

mp_en_viaje: only in that they are what the contemporaneous man believe it to be. but yes, we shall continue later.

mp_en_viaje: feel free to resuscitate it by giving me example of notion of personality that's not homomorphism of height.

BingoBoingo: <mp_en_viaje> the driver of the error is the desire of having a ~unique~ personality. it is not deemed sufficient, by contemporary man, to merely have the same personality as the entire tableau of orthodox saints. there's too many of those, see. gotta be unique. as it can't be unique and meaningful at te same time (think, can it ?)... all that's left is the getting-drunk-on-tapwater "secret parameters". << On the USG side also likely

asciilifeform: 'unique personalities' i'ma leave to the gods. for man imho suffices to find coupla unique primes...

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re 'parameters', witness typical life cycle of ameritard. schoolboy -- glues rubbish to his knapsack, so to 'unique' . then inherits car, glues rubbish to bumper of car. then pupates and indentures into 'buying' house, glues rubbish to house. etc

asciilifeform: not esp. diff. from certain birds which pick up 'unique' combo of rubbish to glue into nest. ☟︎

asciilifeform: the bird, tho, arguably comes closer to 'generating pubkey', at least he aint carefully trying to make his rubbish look entirely same as neighbour's

asciilifeform: this sorta thing is why sergeant beats soldier/sailor for wearing his cap sideways or whatever other idjit attempts to 'unique'