log
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asciilifeform: tried various cf cards in (mechanical) adapter, also.
asciilifeform: (large, small, == the original disk, all same.)
asciilifeform: oh while phf is awake ! : didja ever get that ivory cpu working ?
phf: oh yeah, i forgot about it. i got distracted because my console is not here with me, so i spent some time setting up xorg/telnet/networking
asciilifeform: aah ok
phf: i'm trying to figure out why genera's x client is crashing openbsd x server. but once i do i'll try the chip
asciilifeform: interesting ^ -- apparently x11 was not as standard as i thought
phf: "standard"
asciilifeform: ( and do i misread, or is phf's setup the reverse of the usual one, where genera is the server, and unix box -- client ? )
phf: you can do it either way, but right now genera is client and unix is server
phf: apparently there's an xserver implementation in genera! so can probably get xterm displayed.
asciilifeform: seems like a way to make a really slow xterminal ?
phf: i'm confused. genera is client, unix is server means that genera is going to display itself in a window on a unix box. (client/server in xorg terminology)
asciilifeform: aaah i was thinking of the traditional, rather than the x11istic, meanings, yes
asciilifeform: 'genera shits x11olade, unix box -- displays to screen and eats keyboard'
asciilifeform: so phf's setup is the usual one then.
phf: yeah, trying to sidestep lack of console
asciilifeform: i always thought this was one of the spiffiest things re the smbx boxes
asciilifeform: that the console is not really needed
asciilifeform: if i ever make the fpgaized thing, it sure as fuck won't bother trying to drive an lcd or eat keyboard, wtf, just speak x11.
asciilifeform: (there is, as of yet, nothing resembling a tolerable substitute for x11 protocol, sadly.)
phf: you mean wayland!1
asciilifeform: i've lost track of all of the crackpot 'i can't believe it's not x11!'s.
phf: i think not-transfering-letter-shapes-over-wire is one of the most useful features of protocol. naturally was first one to get subverted
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: not moving bitmaps when there is any way to avoid it, also.
asciilifeform: ( consider the barbarisms winblowz folx are STILL stuck with, e.g., vnc. )
asciilifeform: incidentally, i wonder if anybody's ever written a vnc worm.
phf: i think the argument was, you can't do aa with ttf unless you're composing client side.
asciilifeform: ( you can easily piss an exe into existence, via vnc, using 'alt codes' , or by getting hold of exploder and pissing in a url to load from, or possibly other ways. similar process in other os with exposed vnctron )
phf: i tried doing that through the citrix client, no dice (back when i was working for a place tha tuses a citrix client)
asciilifeform: do which
asciilifeform: alt codes ?
phf: yeah
asciilifeform: or what, it won't process 'click on exploder and go to such-n-such url' ?
shinohai: http://archive.is/4AQNB "Rising polonium prices and a stagnant economy force Russians to use gravity poisoning to save rubles"
shinohai: I think our friend Preet was prosecuting that case iirc
asciilifeform: phf: i wonder if anybody still makes ye olde xterminals
asciilifeform: physical ones. the kind that run from rom and just look like lcd monitors with keyboard jack and nic.
asciilifeform: connect to whatever, lose all state when unplugged.
asciilifeform: sun, iirc, made one, but that was eons ago.
phf: that would be a nifty project if it didn't just reduce to "raspberry pi"
asciilifeform: not rom neh
asciilifeform: i did say 'rom', not 'flash'.
phf: xorg in fpga..
asciilifeform: every couplea months i do an 'can haz otp rom?' and answer, as always, is 'nope', not at any price, simply not made in past 30 yrs.
asciilifeform: the supposed otp roms you can buy now, are actually eproms without the quartz window.
asciilifeform: nothx.
asciilifeform: (they don't come in any size bigger than , iirc, 64kB, either.)
asciilifeform: for instance, i wanted to make FUCKGOATS in otp. no dice.
asciilifeform: not gettable.
asciilifeform: not without paying for the fabbing wholesale (at which point you have asic, and can simply have what you want in the asic)
phf: you ask for such things
phf: it's an alt future technoloyg
asciilifeform: i ask, naively, for tech of 30 yrs ago to be available at some price point
mircea_popescu: alt-1980s
mircea_popescu: emulated in 2030
asciilifeform: but nope. it went the way of mircea_popescu's top hat.
phf: speaking of FUCKGOATS, project PITCHFORK? i still can't get over that one
asciilifeform: phf: lulzy, neh.
mircea_popescu: i thought i was just being paranoid.
asciilifeform: (oh imho a future otp rom, if anyone finds himself sitting on a throne, and wants to make one, ought to have not one but TWO fuses per bit. so that nobody can turn a 1 into a 0 later by blowing an unblown fuse. so you'd have 10 -> 1; 01 -> 0; 11 -> dead cell, ergo dead chip; 00 -> blank cell, only found on blank (new) chip.)
mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from using a normal one this way as it is.
asciilifeform: ideally you'd have the glass window on it, as on an epro, also! but strictly so that you can read it optically.
asciilifeform: *eprom
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tru! but won't be pin-compatible with traditional roms
asciilifeform: (for some applications this matters)
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: 'if i had a ' hamme^H^H^H^H^Hfab, i'd start with very humble things, like... rom.
mircea_popescu: none of it will work until we have the whip to starve the jus' wanting to masses.
mircea_popescu: them of the "Why should i do it right when i could do it easy" church.
asciilifeform: i thought mircea_popescu was of the notion that you don't need economy of mass to do si fab.
mircea_popescu: you still need anti-mass.
asciilifeform: how so?
asciilifeform: what's to keep mircea_popescu from building one in his cellar ( supposing he felt like it )
mircea_popescu: ordinary jwz must have no alternatives. otherwise... ordinary jwz will pretend he exists.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mircea_popescu already has.
asciilifeform: can haz few mm^2 of die space, mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: point being -- dorks go around pretending they're doing "end to end encryption". this field must not exist in order for mp's cellar fab to work irl.
asciilifeform: it already does not exist, 'but the squirrels don't know'
mircea_popescu: well squirrels gotta find out.
asciilifeform: ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-07#1579090 canonical )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-12-07 15:31 asciilifeform: 'well ~i~! know now that i'm not an acorn. but do THE SQUIRRELS know??????'
mircea_popescu: that's the rub. not "need one billion". you don't. but you DO need a giant fly swatter to oppress teh masses with.
asciilifeform: faux crypto ain't ever going away, it is like homeopathy, astrology, fills a niche in the poor, the lazy, the intellectually powerless, for 'control'
mircea_popescu: homeopathy, etc are all CONSUMER MARKET PHENOMENA.
mircea_popescu: take the consumer away, all these problems of peon opining are solved.
asciilifeform: iirc no less a man than hitler, supported whole stable of alchemists, quacks.
asciilifeform: dun have to be mass/konsoomer oriented.
mircea_popescu: this is what needs buckling, the centenary trend of turning medieval serfs into modern consumers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you think hitler was much of a man ?!
asciilifeform: well not garden gnome.
mircea_popescu: srsly now, hitler was a rank imbecile, and in practical terms a major discredit to his country.
mircea_popescu: had germany been led by a sane man, it'd have just maintained a defensive alliance with japan an' argentina. never empowered the idiots, not in italy, not in russia.
asciilifeform: take qin shi huangdi , say. definitely a credit, one of the few credits, to his.
mircea_popescu: stalin without the war would have fallen flat under the weight of his own imbecillity by 1945.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the quack of 5millenia before is not a comparable item in this scope though.
asciilifeform: 'they can stay unfallen under the weight of their imbecility longer than you can stay solvent' or how did it go
mircea_popescu: no way.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tru
mircea_popescu: a sanely managed german "empire" would have outcompeted britain out of the ground by 1950.
mircea_popescu: this way, they had to wait till 2020.
mircea_popescu: hitler cost germany a little over halfd a century.
mircea_popescu: "lebensraum" fucking bs. they could have just colonized argentina. it's larger than fucking europe, and richer.
mircea_popescu: but no, the yhad to go die pointlessly in fucking ukraine, so the italians colonized argentina 20 years later
mircea_popescu: and UTTERLY shat it. this country was in the top 5 in 1920. because of the imperial german trade.
mircea_popescu: now it's ~= chad.
mircea_popescu: but to get back to it : no, hitler didn't have much of a clue, nor were any of his decisions either sound, useful or correct.
mircea_popescu: just a derpy application of "to make a small fortune in X first you start with a large fortune."
asciilifeform: point was that 1 idiot with actual money is ~= 10,000,001 with penny.
asciilifeform: in terms of alchemy impact.
mircea_popescu: i doubt this very much.
mircea_popescu: it is much worse to have a town of 1000 populated by 500 idiots with idiots' tastes and 20 bucks to spend each
mircea_popescu: than it is to have one idiot with 20k to burn.
asciilifeform: ( and hitler was not even the champ, in his circle. consider the idiot chicken farmer's 'ahnenerbe' for instance. )
mircea_popescu: social effects. the maximal empowerment of rank imbecillity is where there's a lot of imbeciles with a little gas each.
asciilifeform: tru. all of the nonsense of versailles did not destroy euro culture; the 20th c -- did.
mircea_popescu: which is the point of anti-inequality : simply TAKING the empire's money away from "the public" into the hands of the lizards is an improvement in teraforming terms.
mircea_popescu: which is why corruption is the right thing, and anyone "fighting corruption" should be raped and then gutted.
mircea_popescu: collect taxes, let them be stolen by individuals.
mircea_popescu: this is also how capitalism starts.
asciilifeform: this was tested in late su/90s ru. afaik summed to 0.
mircea_popescu: 0 my foot.
asciilifeform: orcs just pour golden toilet, and prop up western 'bank' chumpatron.
mircea_popescu: hruschev had no idea how to get even with the us. check it out that putin humiliated obama.
mircea_popescu: this is not 0, this is 1. THE 1.
asciilifeform: in abstract it sounds entirely tru -- 'gotta get the money out of the hands of the beetle man.' but the actual history is somewhat puzzling -- 'beetle man' su had , e.g., steklov mathematical institute. '90s ru -- cocaine yachts, golden toilets.
mircea_popescu: latter is better than former.
mircea_popescu: you stubbornly measure only the height of the plank, then are surprised at volume differential.
asciilifeform: say why i ought to be interested in anything other than the height of the plank.
mircea_popescu: steklov math man was a 1km long, 1mm x 1mm individual. the cocaine yacht dude was 1m on all sides.
mircea_popescu: the sqmm km long pile is not 1 cubic meter.
asciilifeform: y'know one could build a mass of cockroach 10km on all sides.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because irl volume matters.
asciilifeform: it's what the americans -- did.
mircea_popescu: hey, i know your entire life is dedicated to the proposition that geting 10% better at doing math is worth losing out 50% on salesmanship.
mircea_popescu: this, however, is FALSE.
asciilifeform: hey somebody gotta fall on the grenade, mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: yes, "but mp, octopus also has tentacles"
mircea_popescu: sure. problem is 70s ru had nothing but.
asciilifeform: had (surprisingly to some folx) the first 'elbrus', quite competitive with cray1
mircea_popescu: an' romania had felix
mircea_popescu: but none of them had the people with enough fucking sense to get out of the rain.
mircea_popescu: exactly like china today. disciplined followers and local optimizers.
asciilifeform: tru. which is why dead empire, in 'egyptological' museum, and not on the map
asciilifeform: opposite, really, of china.
mircea_popescu: in a sense.
asciilifeform brb, playing with pet
mircea_popescu: imo us and su failed exactly the same way : once the message got put out that "don't worry, do your own thing, we got X covered", it died the next day
mircea_popescu: dun matter "we got X covered" is "we're building socialism" or "they failed building socialism"
mircea_popescu: once jwz is possible the place died.
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631333 these suffer charge leakage ( like ordinary flash rom ) ; actual otp -- theoretically good for centuries.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 00:27 asciilifeform: the supposed otp roms you can buy now, are actually eproms without the quartz window.
asciilifeform: ( and quite impervious to radiation )
asciilifeform: which, i suspect, is why they got lizarded away. 'they' don't want cheap radhard cpu, rom.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1631203 << Hey, I just replaced coolant hoses on car. Destroyed old leaky plastic "quick connect" fittings with screwdriver since they embrittled to become "always connected". Replaced them with thermoplastic heat shrink clamps.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 23:21 asciilifeform: yea it's a pre-plastic auto.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what's wrong with stainless steel clamps ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Insufficiently novel. Try to preserve Saturn plasticar's plasticar theme.
BingoBoingo: And the thermoplastic clamps have a very "clean" look to them.
BingoBoingo: On the plus side the cooling system on this vehicle is just about the easiest possible thing to fill. Coolant reservoir is part of pressure system, heatercore is always open, thing is basically self burping.
asciilifeform: !!up doppler
deedbot: doppler voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!rate doppler 1 new blood
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wZpiD/?raw=true
asciilifeform: !!v 74529CA504C1406823EE4D1EFC7752977E28CF0E4AC4017672D6C40DFAD90E4E
deedbot: asciilifeform rated doppler 1 << new blood
doppler: excellent
asciilifeform: happy wotbirthday doppler .
asciilifeform: now say a bit re who you are ? what brings you here ?
doppler: sure thing
doppler: I was drawn in by the computer-related discussions I have seen from some of the users here
doppler: I guess most notably, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: more specifically ?
doppler: well this is going to sound dumb but
asciilifeform: ( maybe 90% of the material is in some sense 'computer related' lol )
doppler: I think I found your website through some ancient HN post
doppler: I also have connections to some people who work on lisp machine restoration
asciilifeform: do say more
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform in particular is not esp. interested in 'lisp machine restoration' in the sense of 'old car restoration' hobbyists, but in reverse-engineering )
doppler: haha, well I think there are varying levels in the people I talk with
doppler: I haven't done anything in that regard personally
doppler: but I'm very interested in the topic
asciilifeform: incidentally the real titan of 'bolixology' here is phf , rather than asciilifeform .
doppler: phf knows at least one of the people i know
doppler: I have enjoyed the content that I have read in the logs over some months and watched scroll by as I idled here the past few days
doppler: so really I'm here to learn
asciilifeform: we had a lively thread not long ago, where asciilifeform complains re primary activity of the top bolixologists seems to consist of sitting quietly, dog-in-the-manger-style, on piles of unpublished goodies
asciilifeform: perhaps doppler will break the radio silence and post some docs
doppler: what kinds are you looking for?
asciilifeform: well, starting with the crown jewels , and down :
doppler: haha
asciilifeform: 1) the NS source for the last 'ivory'.
asciilifeform: 2) NS itself.
doppler: I wish.
asciilifeform: 3) the uncensored (compl. with low-levels) src for last (8.3 afaik) genera.
doppler: I say I'm here to learn and you hit me with such a request :)
asciilifeform: doppler: learn, learn.
asciilifeform: the 'i know people...' is what prompted the req.
doppler: ah.
doppler: well I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask them
doppler: what are you working on presently?
asciilifeform: entirely unrelated things.
doppler: oh?
asciilifeform: most of it is described, in painful detail, in the logs.
doppler: sounds good
asciilifeform: re 'non-crown' jewels of bolixdom, one example of useful thing that does not publicly exist anywhere -- the mere pinout of the 'ivory'.
asciilifeform: ( it would be possible to build a behavioural test stand for it, if the pinout and timing characteristics were known. theoretically anyone with a 'macivory' and some spare time, could come up with these. )
doppler: hmm, i see
asciilifeform: for some odd reason, not a single one of the folks who bought these relics, has seen it fit to do this work.
asciilifeform: or even to take and post a high-resolution photo of the thing.
doppler: it seems that many are caught up in the 'collection' aspect, maybe
asciilifeform: it is almost as if they did not want their 3-10k $ investments to turn into the equivalent of old nintendo.
asciilifeform: which any idiot can emulate.
doppler: yeah
asciilifeform: however that is precisely what i'm interested in.
asciilifeform: making their investments -- worth ~$ 0.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit is that we'll never get the ~people~ who built that thing, back.
asciilifeform: i know for a fact that some of them -- are dead.
asciilifeform: others -- long past the end of their intellectual working lives.
asciilifeform: we could, however, get the ~artifact~ back. in theory.
asciilifeform: ( and -- possibly -- some of the insider working notes. )
doppler: that part is sad, yes
asciilifeform: the 'collectors', in my experience, have been the farthest possible thing from a help -- quite a hindrance, in fact.
doppler: how much of the remaining equipment do you think is still "undiscovered"?
doppler: ie. owned by people or parties that do not know the value of it
asciilifeform: the equipment is not the issue, it is all available, for a price
asciilifeform: the sources/schematics/etc. are the issue.
doppler: might there be documentation along with the machines?
asciilifeform: i have 100% of the published documentation here.
asciilifeform: it fill a book case.
asciilifeform: *fills
asciilifeform: ( most of it is also on www )
doppler: I see.
asciilifeform: the published documentation is of 0 use in cloning the machine.
asciilifeform: ( quite deliberately )
asciilifeform: symbolics -- also quite deliberately -- never even printed an honest instruction set reference, for any of the machines.
doppler: I do see why that would be to their advantage
asciilifeform: it wasn't an outrageous / illogical / atrocious thing to do. smbx was a fabless chip maker which competed directly with, among others, TI ('explorer' lispm)
doppler: right.
asciilifeform: the result, however, is that the ~singularly~ most interesting comp from 1980s -- is ~entirely lost .
asciilifeform: the old iron, doppler , is not -- contrary to the delusions of 'collectors' -- interesting per se. the ~software~ was not even interesting per se -- it was a tall pile of stinking mit hacks. the CONCEPTS, however, as described in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 , WERE interesting.
asciilifeform: and ergo the software, to the extent it embodied these concepts -- which was quite large -- is interesting;
asciilifeform: and the iron -- is also of interest, in so far as it made the soft -- possible.
doppler: that's a very respectable way to think about it
doppler: that post was among the first I read
doppler: and it was eye-opening
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/R5bkM/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: Their loss, I'm sorry for it.
shinohai: In other lulz, the "esteemed Asst. Prof. Emin Sirer" on why the Bitcoin Unlimited bugs of late are no big deal: https://twitter.com/el33th4xor/status/844331767175794689
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this theory of "interesting concepts" of a tribe dead on its own power is the height of unpersuasiveness.
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1630992 << was elaine ou, a phd cum writer whom i invited over (via pgpgram!) after reading http://elaineou.com/2017/03/17/the-bitcoin-backlog/ recently. definitely seems brighter than average.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 20:47 ben_vulpes: !!up eo
pete_dushenski: make that phd student, not phd. electrical engineering at stanford.
mircea_popescu: shinohai who the fuck esteems a two bit instructor in an obscure university that's been circling bitcoin for years and has as of yet produced nothing besides tweets and dandruff ?
shinohai: Hence the quotes.
mircea_popescu: myeah
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is free to be as 'unpersuaded' as he wants. fact: his machine -- can overrun an array; bolix -- could not; his box -- crashes, cannot be examined or uncrashed (yes) -- bolix -- could; and various other aspects, well covered in teh logz.
mircea_popescu: so then it's not the concepts that were interesting but the implementation ?
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski so why so quiet ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: arguably, in the sense where sikorsky's chopper is interesting, while davinci's -- much less .
mircea_popescu: do you wish to know how did some old farts manage to stick it into the missus, because "the concept" of getting it up is interesting in the sense of well, not actually, you have the concept, it just, what exactly ? yours dun work ?
mircea_popescu: there's just about nothing interesting you could find by opening hood of ancient car, as an engine designer today. not one trhing. most of them are collected, and are revered by a so-minded public, and aren't documented worth didly squat. i dun think this sunday hobby item is different from that.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: girl (rather cute, i might add) said she just wants to lurk to start. read logs etc. i've pointed her towards registering her key with deedbot and said she can ask q's via pm or pgpgram. we'll see what comes of the endeavour i guess.
mircea_popescu: what am i going to learn blowing a million dollars worth of highly energetic photons on the 55 chevy engine block ? how to cut metal with analog calipers ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the basic tech of internal combustion -- was not lost.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski works.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what was lost here, lisp ?
asciilifeform: on the other hand, there is not ONE sane cpu on the market. the kind with enforced type tags and bounds.
asciilifeform: not since late '80s.
asciilifeform: that -- was lost.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a single engine on the market, the kind with shaft driven aspiration and carbureted intake. so what.
asciilifeform: no engines, period. to run with this analogy. only horse.
mircea_popescu: heck, it';s not even legal to try and sell or drive one.
mircea_popescu: i see you claiming it, it's just not sticking. evidently digital accumulators exist. no horse.
asciilifeform: piece of shit that sees no types, no bounded arrays, etc. but only soup -- yes, exists. and the 'seekoority' field, wih it.
asciilifeform: both could go away.
mircea_popescu: this does not improve the validity of your horse theory.
mircea_popescu: yes, catalytic convertors could go away. they don't work with carburetors. so ?
asciilifeform: this equivalence does not exist here.
mircea_popescu: i tell you i dun see it.
asciilifeform: cpu that obeys type constraints is quite unlike the familiar idiot kind. in exactly same way that trains equipped with westinghouse's air brake, are unlike the earlier ones where brake man ran from car to car pulling ropes.
mircea_popescu: seems a minor improvement.
mircea_popescu: they're sure still trains.
asciilifeform: nope. one is a coffin in wheels.
asciilifeform: other -- train.
asciilifeform: *on
mircea_popescu: look, the label game only works if you can enforce it. and you can't.
mircea_popescu: so, the concept of moving signalling from rigid to fluid medium. great idea. minor point.
asciilifeform: well i can't very well by force of magic will, teleport mircea_popescu into a pre-airbrake train so he can feel he diff on own skin.
asciilifeform: so in that sense no.
mircea_popescu: it's just a different category of special pleading. even if you get me to fuck liz taylor tonight, and even if i personally fucking love it and propose marriage, i still won't agree she's structurally different from womanhood.
mircea_popescu: skin or no skin, things are what they are.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is in the position of the greeks who pissed on heron's turbine.
mircea_popescu: some guy came up with the bright idea of ading a fine copper mesh to miner lamps so they dont' start fires anymore, about the same time. it didn't fucking change mining from milk to ambrosia.
asciilifeform: 'same as slave, but clunky, snoar'
mircea_popescu: this not so.
mircea_popescu: mircea_popescu is in the position where he spent many years applying serious, scientific methods to the problem of knowledge classification.
mircea_popescu: this gives him an edge over ad hoc feelings, it's only feelings approach.
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1631221 << define 'possible'. >x connections ? doesn't crash ? because i've been running trb on vps since it came out and have no particular complaints other than semi-regular st9 errors.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 23:34 mircea_popescu: tbh i have nfi how you could run trb in a vps. i don't think it's possible, not really. would be certainly quite the medal of merit on any software that can handle such.
asciilifeform: decade of archaeological work == 'only feelings' nao? lol
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski holy shit it didn't freeze ?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your proposed cut of the gordian knot was "let mp feel what i feel!!11"
pete_dushenski: nuhuh
mircea_popescu: what powers the vps ?
pete_dushenski: '4 E5v3 CPU Cores'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is difficult to compress decade of archaeology into 1 persuasive paragraph. esp. to persuade a fella who in his panglossism has determined not to be persuadable.
asciilifeform: 'we live in the best of computings, bolix died on own power' etc
mircea_popescu: i've determined no such thing. i jus' said, i dunsee it.
mircea_popescu: im not claiming it's not there or anything.
mircea_popescu: this aside, what power did bolix die on ?
asciilifeform: of having been a miniature steklov institute, in turn part of a miniature su, reagan's bezzle.
asciilifeform: 'nothing kills like bad money' or how it went.
mircea_popescu: so it never was economically relevant ?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: also 4gb ram and 1tb raid that processes tx way the hell faster than dulap on mech hdd
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not apart from the amex fraud sensor thing, afaik.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski that dun sound like a vps. sounds like a proc spec ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then what the fuck are we talking about ? airbrake made bank.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: moar analogous to ac current. which very nearly went to same place as symbolics.
asciilifeform: could have very easily not made-bank.
mircea_popescu: how ?!
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: that's a point eh.
asciilifeform: we had entire thread!
mircea_popescu: what, edison tried to blackball it and failed. counterfactuals make for poor support.
asciilifeform: microshit is what a successful edisoning looks like.
mircea_popescu: i dunno bout that. maybe.
asciilifeform: ( see also: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-29#1215563 , http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-02#698992 , possibly elsewhere. )☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-07-29 00:35 asciilifeform: at any rate, if you go and read edison's writings, you get a very similar flavour of 'idiot savant / malicious imbecile' as from bill gates
a111: Logged on 2014-06-02 18:05 asciilifeform: (e.g. power station on every street corner, wall wiring as thick as your arm, etc)
mircea_popescu: i never got much more from gates than from any other zigglar.
mircea_popescu: "gotta be successful" 1980isms and that's about it.
mircea_popescu: a very sad generation.
asciilifeform: the gates in the 'letter to hobbyists', not the senile husk, no
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631587 << wait pete_dushenski , what error☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 04:46 pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1631221 << define 'possible'. >x connections ? doesn't crash ? because i've been running trb on vps since it came out and have no particular complaints other than semi-regular st9 errors.
asciilifeform: ?
pete_dushenski: EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc \nstd::bad_alloc \nbitcoin in ProcessMessage() \n
asciilifeform: looks like a nonfatal oom
pete_dushenski: it's definitely nonfatal
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: 'Every service is in a dedicated VM container' << i'm not clear on difference between vm and vps, but i have at least one trb box on vm it seems.
pete_dushenski: quote obv from service provider
mircea_popescu: mm
pete_dushenski: also, 'We make use of KVM/QEMU technology'
mircea_popescu: impressive
pete_dushenski: so about that medal...
mircea_popescu: yeah, pretty impressive really.
asciilifeform: vm host is not unlike house of ancient flats with 1 hot water tank for 10
asciilifeform: if 1 washes -- always enough water, no issues
asciilifeform: if 5 -- problem.
mircea_popescu: i would expect any host trying to make money with vm to have kicked him off
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/fmGhw << i don't even know where to begin with this 'day in the life of 28yo credit suisse banker'. is bi that fucking cocksure that they think their readers will swallow pictostory about nice kid who plays squash and eats in cafeteria all day ? as if this kid isn't pushing dodgy shit onto worthless clients he and his bank don't give a shit about all because his higher-ups have some bad
pete_dushenski: paper to unload. kid's overpaid salesman, not 'relationship manager' like some walmart customer service desktard. wtf.
mircea_popescu: and the easiest sale of them all
mircea_popescu: is convincing some 28yo kid he's not some 28yo kid.
mircea_popescu: always easier when the mark wants to believe.
pete_dushenski: honorifics will do that in a heartbeat. aha.
pete_dushenski: not unlike yours truly at similar age. 'look mom ima a republican lord!' lol
mircea_popescu: lol
pete_dushenski: on that high note, i'll call it an eve. bon soir!
mircea_popescu: nn
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/vermont-residents-on-state-run-job-board-hacked/ << Qntra - Vermont Residents On State Run Job Board Hacked
mircea_popescu: heh
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://archive.is/ADnD6 >> 'Nunes set off the firestorm with a news conference earlier in the day in which he described the surveillance of Trump aides through what’s called “incidental collection,” something he noted was routine and legal.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow. ACCIDENT!1111
mircea_popescu: lol.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea what sort of frogbrains havwe to be in these brainboxes.
mircea_popescu: dude is fucking frying them, and they're going through the predictable motions. "oh, trump will fry us. lol" "oh, trump is just saying so" "oh, he accidentally beat us up but he loves us"
mircea_popescu: bitch... grow up. nobody fucking wants you. there's no space left for you.
mircea_popescu: "oh no, that's just not poissible, who wouldn't want an obnoxious old woman." guess.
mircea_popescu: gotta love the "routine" device of the SOPS also. "john smith, why did you wait in a black van behind the highschool for the cheerleaders to come out, then chased one down, stripped her naked, tied her and took her to your van ?" "oh, i ALWAYS DO THIS!"
mircea_popescu: vs "usg agency, why did you eavesdrop on trump and then lie about it and then lie about other things ?" "oh, WE ALWAYS DO THAT"
mircea_popescu: bitch... this isn't an excuse.
asciilifeform: hey if lavrentiy pavlovich beria does routinely...
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: at least send them some fucking flowers.
mircea_popescu: "roses are sweet, bruises are blue, i had a great time but not as great as your asshole is now."
asciilifeform: pretty sure obummer sent him flowers. (or was it a happy greeting card ? luvvletter?) on nomoarobummer-day
mircea_popescu: oh incidentally, for the socialists in attendance : watch "quiz show". it's an utter piece of crap i couldn't comprehend why anyone bothered making until we got to the scene where the white priviledge guy apologizes for existing.
mircea_popescu: enjoy teh tv fiction, i say, tis as close as you're fucking getting.
mod6: mornin'
mod6: This box with 2 E5650's and 64Gb RAM showed up yesterday. now, just need some drives...
mircea_popescu: sweet.
mod6: ya, kinda neat. looking forward to getting this fired up.
shinohai: I'm jelly mod6 but gg
mod6: fwiw it was only like $375
mircea_popescu: yeah, since bolix went the fuck away computing's not expensive at all
mircea_popescu still remembers making the very HARD fucking decision of not dropping 2k of 1990 dollars on a 15 inch monitor.
mod6: oh yeah, back in those days computer-anything was $$$. Especially CRTs.
mircea_popescu: "but mp, they were built to last. think, you could still have it!!" yeah. i could. and it'd be worth 25k in today's dollars, and it'd still be a 15 inch mcga or w/e the fuck it was
shinohai: Hey not bad at all
asciilifeform: lulzily trinitron is still $$$
asciilifeform: esp if you want a fresh one
mircea_popescu: well i wasn't gonna pick THAT example :D
shinohai: I want a trinquetron
mircea_popescu: also trinitron more like 2000s. the 90s were atrocious, all that green.
mircea_popescu: in retrospect, i can't believe my eyes lived through it.
mircea_popescu: micro-mp used to spend so much time staring down early displays o brother.
asciilifeform: there's a biological immunity, i suspect
mircea_popescu: yeah, young men have it too easy.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's elder brother, for instance, spent ~= time in front of bad displays -- perfect vision to this day
asciilifeform: asciilifeform -- not
mircea_popescu: ah like that ? mebbe.
mircea_popescu: this is good news then, blindness sucks.
asciilifeform: speaking of demise of bolix, one of the oddities behind the princely (like entire bulldozer!111) cost of the machines, was the crt, at the time there was NO mass manufacture of high-res (1152x864 iirc) crt, anywhere on planet3; they had'em custom-blown.
mircea_popescu: i know. kinda why i said.
mircea_popescu: seems to me a lot of it is a particular sort of hype.
asciilifeform: (for most of the life of the product, they were 1bit b&w, for the elementary reason that no one would buy $mil of video ram)
asciilifeform: incidentally the cost was quite typical of minis.
asciilifeform: simply, the other minis had by then vanished.
mircea_popescu: there's that expression that there's two kinds of fools in this world, the kind that says this is old, and therefore good ; and the kind that says this is new, and therefore better. just because we're awash in type 2 idiocy from the ipaditiots and mactards dun mean the type 1 went away.
mircea_popescu: wtf do i want a handblown crt for! and how much of it was ~the equivalent ?
asciilifeform: they weren't handblown!
asciilifeform: but that no one else was even contemplating highres graphics in single user workstation.
mircea_popescu: i'm making a broader point using a rhetorical device.
asciilifeform: 'pioneer -- arrow in his back', said the 19th c americans.
mircea_popescu: there is also that.
mircea_popescu: let me put it this way to you asciilifeform :
mircea_popescu: if the only way to get a kock gpgtron was to dig one out of the one clothing store in utah that accidentally got all the 18 evcer produced and sells one now and again when they stumble on the box in the basement -- would your idea of the gpgtron be closer or further from your current, and correct, idea of it ? which, unless i lost track, goes along the rails of "nothing in there is salvageable ; full rewrite" ?
asciilifeform: i did carefully point out that , e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631528☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 03:39 asciilifeform: the old iron, doppler , is not -- contrary to the delusions of 'collectors' -- interesting per se. the ~software~ was not even interesting per se -- it was a tall pile of stinking mit hacks. the CONCEPTS, however, as described in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 , WERE interesting.
mircea_popescu: yes but i suspect you don't actually know what the word "concept" means.
asciilifeform: the bolix -- also needs full rewrite. 99+% of what was in it, was to work around the frightening limitations of the tech of the period.
asciilifeform: the concepts in question reduce to very basic sanity, which the transistor-impoverished people of the '70s-'80s simply could not afford : cpu that understands context ('is this word part of a bignum? where does the array end?'), programs that hold enough info to restart/repair, and various other.
asciilifeform: today -- can afford them, your cpu's tlb cache alone is 50x the size of the bolix total transistor count.
mircea_popescu: "concept" is not shorthand for "metaconsideration" ; concept denotes the root node of a knowledge tree. and you manifestly DO have the involved concepts, because casual remarks like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631556☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 04:37 asciilifeform: on the other hand, there is not ONE sane cpu on the market. the kind with enforced type tags and bounds.
asciilifeform: but the expectation -- has vanished. konsoomer expects, dare say enjoys, crashes, 0days.
mircea_popescu: this being the substance of the whoile discussion since yest : you claimed to want something you showed you have ; i deduced the confusion must be resolved. "concepts" in the sense of "metaconsiderations" aren't interesting ; concepts in the sense of concepts you already have.
asciilifeform: it'd depend on what means 'have'.
asciilifeform: yes, inside my head -- i have.
mircea_popescu: you just said it! have, have.
mircea_popescu: well yes.
asciilifeform: on my desk, or in a form that'd convince folx who grew up in cmachine monkeystan -- don't have.
mircea_popescu: but this is a red herring, because your stated aim with the archeology is to populate your head not your desk
mircea_popescu: it's not like you aim to take the found machines to the kinko's and copy them into more exemplars.
asciilifeform: i dare say i succeeded, in 'populating head'
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: and re "folks", the elephant of sadness in the field everyone's been dancing around since forever is that none of the buyers buy for anything like a sane puyrpose. much like the 55 firebird buyer who isn't buying it in 2015 to make teenie boppers suck his cock in it ; but to drive it by city dumps and industrial zones which used to be a town and stroke his memories.
mircea_popescu: and this in the best case, a good half simply buy them to deny it to memory strokers in the hope of geting more $$$ later.
asciilifeform: ain't this exactly what i said re the bolix collectors ?
mircea_popescu: i guess it is. you were just uncharacteristically nice about it.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: it happens! lol
shinohai: "DoubleAgent exploits a 15 years old undocumented legitimate feature of Windows and therefore cannot be patched." https://github.com/Cybellum/DoubleAgent
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
shinohai: What was that you said yesterday about Windows being "Perfectly safe" now, Mr Sirer ?
mircea_popescu: which one is sirer ?
asciilifeform: 'Cybellum Is The First Deterministic Zero-Day Prevention Platform™ That Eliminates Unknown Threats With First-Step Threat Protection™' << lel
shinohai: The Prof that really isn't a Prof @ cornell
mircea_popescu: a lol. whatevs.
asciilifeform reading the vendor's www, the 'magical tech' seems to resolve to... stack cookies
mircea_popescu: genius
mircea_popescu: i wish i came up with that. could do like... logins over http and shit!
asciilifeform: ( for noobs -- 'stack cookie' is the -- nowadays common, at least in gccland -- practice of putting a random turd on the end of a stack that overflows, and later testing if it is still there before popping a return addr )
mircea_popescu: pretty much a cookie.
asciilifeform: it goes under different names
shinohai: Still won't actually prevent said buffer overflow
asciilifeform: microshit even has own.
asciilifeform: shinohai: noshit.jpg
mircea_popescu: shinohai nor would it prevent malware feeding you it.
mircea_popescu: just like www cookies.
asciilifeform: in other recent lulz , https://archive.is/xXW9T >> '...race condition in the n_hdlc Linux kernel driver (drivers/tty/n_hdlc.c). It can be exploited to gain a local privilege escalation. ... This driver provides HDLC serial line discipline and comes as a kernel module in many Linux distributions, which have CONFIG_N_HDLC=m in the kernel config. ...introduced on 22 June 2009'
asciilifeform: best of all, (followup post),
asciilifeform: 'Exploiting the flaw in the vulnerable module n_hdlc does not require Microgate or SyncLink hardware. The module is automatically loaded if an unprivileged user opens a pseudoterminal and calls TIOCSETD ioctl for it setting N_HDLC line discipline.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
mircea_popescu: heh
trinque wonders who leaves module loading on
trinque: in the kernel config
asciilifeform: trinque: folx who work on modules ?
trinque: or builds drivers he doesn't use, even
trinque: sure, use it for dev I guess
asciilifeform: folx who build must-boot-on-multiple-boxes images ?
asciilifeform: ('livecd' etc)
mircea_popescu: pestilentially common, kernel with 5k modules and 100k drivers
trinque: asciilifeform: that's living in sin and you know it
asciilifeform: it's what you get unless you sit for two weeks with pair of snippycutters.
asciilifeform: and at the end you get a thing that stops booting when you swap raid cards etc.
trinque: argument being convenience?
asciilifeform: 'convenience' is not the word. how does trinque propose to make a 'livecd' (installer, say) that uses no modules.
trinque: isn't my doing that there is no tool to produce a kernel driver config other than booting EVERYTHING THAT EVER WAS
asciilifeform: trinque: i wonder if there is a means of making modules loadable ONCE per boot
asciilifeform: ( i have genuinely nfi, q for everyone tuned in )
trinque: if there were, you'd boot a minimal environment that can produce a kernel config, then you'd go build your kernel, then bake that into your very own ISO
asciilifeform: this you can already do
trinque: sure.
trinque: it is what I said after all
asciilifeform: what i'd like is : 1) 'hardware not present? MODULE DOESN'T LOAD. EVER' 2) modules can be loaded, but strictly 1ce per boot.
trinque: aha, I'd at least like "look, network driver is the last thing you may ever load"
trinque: and that's still not better than "you only have the code available for what you intend to do"
mircea_popescu: we're headed for the kernel for the kernel aren't we
asciilifeform: still doesn't convert the public toilet that is unix/x86 into something else. but would shrink the audit surface considerably.
mircea_popescu: THE FUCKING REASON THE KERNEL EVEN EXISTS!!1
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this already happened in heathendom, long ago, was called 'microkernel' heresy
mircea_popescu: sigh.
trinque: no not that.
asciilifeform: crapple, iirc, uses.
asciilifeform: it is stupid.
asciilifeform: ( because pretends to an isolation that is physically impossible on the iron )
trinque: just a minimal linux kernel that boots, can interrogate hardware IDs and fart out a .config
asciilifeform: trinque: and support gcc..?
trinque: then you go build only the drivers you need somewhere else and come back
trinque: you keep wanting to drag me to a point that's easily knocked down; it wont happen
trinque: :p
asciilifeform: trinque: where's 'somewhere else' ?
asciilifeform: trinque: i'm not even that far along, currently trying to determine what your idea ~was~
trinque: k, there is a check at the beginning of every module which involves "is this hardware present" for drivers
asciilifeform: ^ in actual practice, very much not-every, lol
trinque: that has no business being there and not further upstack producing the .config you need
trinque: well, other sins
trinque: sanity would dictate you boot something which can run all those checks ~and not the fucking driver code too~
trinque: and then you go build all the drivers elsewhere and come back
asciilifeform: trinque ever work on driver for linux ?
trinque: boot minimal kernel -> run driver introspectatron -> get .config -> build kernel -> bake ISO
mircea_popescu: so basically, we make a usb diagnoser, you stuff it into mystery box, it spits out the equivalent of makefiles for it, you go to hot box, create image, plop it into mystery box and it boots ?
trinque: I'm not about to defend whatever gay decisions linus allowed
asciilifeform: the sad thing re the iron , is that 'determine if installed, and if so, where on the bus' is often 80% of the driver !
trinque: oh jeez
asciilifeform: the typical iron, is retarded far, far beyond the belief of anyone who is innocent of subj
mircea_popescu: not 80, but a solid 40% sure.
asciilifeform: duntakemywordforit.
asciilifeform: often there are subsystems, i'll give concrete example:
asciilifeform: GB nics have 2 parts, that are electrically independent and often made by separate firms, the 'mac' and 'phy' (the latter is what actually drives the transformer, the former -- what you/os think of as 'the nic')
asciilifeform: they have their own, internal bus, that connects'em
asciilifeform: to initialize the phy, you gotta first find and init the mac...
asciilifeform: massive shit show, and it is only ONE example.
trinque: and phy doesn't even appear to exist without mac init?
trinque: pretty sad
asciilifeform: trinque: correct
asciilifeform: or, more pedestrian example,
asciilifeform: on many (most?) extant boxes, the thermometers sit on a 'sm' bus (2-3 wire thing, there are several variants) which in turn sits on pci bus
asciilifeform: so you gotta walk the buses, in turn, before it becomes even meaningful to attempt to speak to the thermometers.
asciilifeform: (and this is a 'clean' example, that mostly ~works!)
asciilifeform: the point, sadly, is that the world of 1993, where the machine consists of gadgets you can converse with independently, is gone
mircea_popescu: teh craptree
mircea_popescu: "what happened to computing ?" "it was captured by the craptree"
asciilifeform: and good chunk of the craptree , in linuxland and winblowzstan both, consists of this crapolade
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's certainly a LOT less meaningful to speak of some supposed linux-windows distinction than it was in 1997. this is what bumbling imbeciles a la ermin gun sirer aim to communicate, in their bovine fashjion, when they say "windows is perfectly safe" : not that windows is anything but the crap it always was ; but that they feel confident they've managed to smear it on everything so bereft of alternative one "sho
mircea_popescu: uldn't" dare piss on their faces.
trinque: I certainly concede the point that there's no sane way the kernel build process could go other than "better pack in everything" and then snip.
mircea_popescu: trinque the more important point he's making is that sanitization of software'd best start with motherboard redesign
asciilifeform: trinque: fabrice bellard had an interesting experiment, where he stuffed tinycc into kernel, and had it self-build on boot
asciilifeform: trinque: may be worth looking into
mircea_popescu: he usually misstates this as hav ing to do with cpu foundries etc, which it pointedly does not.
asciilifeform: but i'd prefer to help x86 die, not to build elaborate new life support for it.
mircea_popescu: you ~could~ rearrange extant chips in an infinitely saner fashion for very little cost.
trinque: mircea_popescu: aha, and in my head there was this ACPI table you could ask the BIOS for or w/e
mircea_popescu: still present of course, not hobbist 1k dollar cost. but nothing compared to the 1trn foundry runs you
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. the existing chips all rely on the various craptree buses.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a chip is a chip is a chip. it'll do whatever the fuck.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope.
asciilifeform: it wants the bus, or no pasaran. i know, sad.
mircea_popescu: yes yes. still not need a foundry for this.
asciilifeform: a documented ~homogeneous~ fpga, would suffice.
asciilifeform: (still doesn't exist, and is actually the ~only reason i even said 'need foundry')
mircea_popescu: there's many possible approaches to this ford we're not at yet.
asciilifeform: having banged my head against subj for decade+ now, i'd be interested in hearing of one i haven't yet thought of.
mircea_popescu: bang your head moar productively, you.
asciilifeform: we might have had this thread, but one example of unfixable yet ubiquitous braindamage in iron: usb.
asciilifeform: the spec is literally bookcase-length;
asciilifeform: and NO extant iron implements it honestly.
asciilifeform: or ever will.
asciilifeform: because the thing resembles winblowz api, contradictions and all.
asciilifeform: cancerous bureaucracy.
asciilifeform: the original idea seemed appealing -- to make devices self-describing and conformant to standardized profiles -- 'keyboard', 'block disk', etc
mircea_popescu: eh, just use rs lol
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: laugh, but it's the ONE interface that's ~actually~ standard
mircea_popescu: anyway, usb suffers immensely from the utf effect. "only plug with power in it, everyone gotta be there!11"
asciilifeform: on all comps, american, soviet, martian.
mircea_popescu: it's how los angeles went to shit, and new york before it.
mircea_popescu: "gotta be there"
asciilifeform: (which is why it is in FUCKGOATS)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was not laughing at all. dead serious.
mircea_popescu: computer-i can has rs for slow or ethernet for fast, and thassit.
asciilifeform: tops out at 1MBit tho (and that's pushing it, needs short wire.)
mircea_popescu: jobs style.
mircea_popescu: keep things simple. i'd rather see a bank of eight upt and another bank of 64 rs holes on the machine than the current bs.
mircea_popescu: and yes, put the monitor through the eth card too. bs special bus.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: like bolix!111
mircea_popescu: monitor-on-lan.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i told you we have the concepts.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631306 << see also.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 00:12 asciilifeform: if i ever make the fpgaized thing, it sure as fuck won't bother trying to drive an lcd or eat keyboard, wtf, just speak x11.
mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: there's no disagreement here.
asciilifeform: you only really need that 1 hole.
asciilifeform: even rs232 can hang off ethernet.
mircea_popescu: might be advantageous to have electrically separate high and low.
asciilifeform: (there are konsoomer-ready boxes for this, i had a bunch when working with the lab robot)
mircea_popescu: but whatever, ianae.
asciilifeform: multiple nics.
asciilifeform: the 1 serious problem with everything-via-nic, is latency, it is an overhead-heavy thing, and intrinsically buffered
mircea_popescu: wich is why i say, may be good to have rs aside.
asciilifeform: you wouldn't want to pump audio, or animation, etc over it.
asciilifeform: ( or via serial )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's ok, if i feel the need to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629701 i'll just pick up an ipad.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 20:46 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the state of casual gaming is completely fucked up. so other than utter throwaways, stuff that looks like someone's undegrad project, the ~entire market of ipad-likes (stuff that works in the browser, or else via a "light" client for windows/mac, or else as a ipad/android etc app) is wholly like this :
asciilifeform: sort of where i ended up, in this line of thought
asciilifeform: 'gimme a real comp, everything else can happen either later, or on dedicated nintendo'
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: large portion of the whole mess is actually trying to capitalize on the fact that the killer micros came with their own television set
mircea_popescu: in contrast with gameboys or w.e
mircea_popescu: which is why amiga made better computers than ameritrends back in 1992.
asciilifeform: the 'killermost' micro, interestingly (commodore 64) -- did not
asciilifeform: (did not ship a display. not until very late in its life)
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: amiga -- did; but this 'bolixed' it into a price point where it was outcompeted by the 64 !
asciilifeform: (and destroyed the maker)
mircea_popescu: and once it did ship it, commodore i mean, it became less relevant nor more so.
asciilifeform: aha, via the above process
mircea_popescu: myea
asciilifeform: the micro warz were a textbook case of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631399☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 00:45 mircea_popescu: it is much worse to have a town of 1000 populated by 500 idiots with idiots' tastes and 20 bucks to spend each
asciilifeform: 'victory of the cockroaches'
mircea_popescu: in any case by 2017 we rerally can relax re the "omfg television set" marketing criteria of 1987
asciilifeform: turning vectorade into bitmapola really oughat be happening inside, or at least near, the lcd -- rather than in the comp.
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: for one thing.
asciilifeform: ditto audio
asciilifeform: the bolix folx got this right in 1981.
mircea_popescu: for the other --- THERE IS NO REASON FOR BITMAPERIZWER TO TALK BACK!!11
mircea_popescu: make it one way only! get all that shit out of the box and into the display where it can hurt nothing!
asciilifeform: (the 36xx console has a motherfucking m68k JUST FOR THE AUDIO - 16 bits! m68k was selling as ~cpu~ in other boxes)
asciilifeform: the only thing the console knew how to send back, was keystrokes, and optionally audio-in
mircea_popescu: yeah i just meant re the fucking video bus
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: video ended up on main system bus of pc, out of transistor poverty.
asciilifeform: like the rest of it.
mircea_popescu: yeah well no more of that.
asciilifeform: it is an artifact of poverty, quite like those sheet metal huts the half-monkey folk in brazil live in.
asciilifeform: ditto, e.g., dma.
asciilifeform: ( pretty sure we had 'the' dma thread not long ago )
mircea_popescu: poverty, and it's daughters : ignorance ; and the expectation that the state is good.
asciilifeform: not long ago i saw a photo of some american mega-rich d00d, forget who, and nobody cares, his refrigerator, was full of synthetic 'budveiser' beer
asciilifeform: symbolic of the traditional idiocy of the 'rich poor' man
asciilifeform: and this is precisely what happened to the pc !
asciilifeform: the cheap transistors -- did not go to make bounds-checking memory, no
asciilifeform: they went to tlb cache, and other nonsense to make winblowz slightly less 'molasses'.
mircea_popescu: myeah
mircea_popescu: !~google dolitte "if i were a rich man"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: If I Were A Rich Man Lyrics - Fiddler on the Roof - Soundtrack Lyrics: <https://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/bestofbroadway-americanmusical/ifiwerearichman.htm>; If I Were a Rich Man Lyrics - Fiddler on the Roof Cast - Soundtrack ...: <https://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/fiddlerontheroof/ifiwerearichman.htm>; If I Were a Rich Man (song) - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Were_a_R
asciilifeform: ^ '...and one going nowhere, just for show!'
mircea_popescu: hm.
trinque: and now "management engine"
asciilifeform: trinque: aha. and antennae spirals on ~every die.
asciilifeform: ( if not today -- tomorrow. )
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jfkaf70SYM << actual item.
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu baking a pc-style mobo is not expensive, our existing pcb people could quite readily do it. the problem is 'out of what'. the necessary docs are not available, never leaked, nor the firmware signing keys (still not phuctored!1111 damn)
asciilifeform: i thought about getting one with amd g-series -- and was at the point of seriously attempting it when the latter began to show signs of death
mircea_popescu: you miss lines, and not random lines either.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631844☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 16:41 mircea_popescu: there's many possible approaches to this ford we're not at yet.
asciilifeform: not missed , that's what prompted the line of thought
asciilifeform: 'is mircea_popescu referring to some concrete approach, or just a generic prof.brin-style 'THINK!YOUMAGGOTS''
mircea_popescu: just mp-style "i can see the future but can't explain it to you, back to work."
asciilifeform: ye olde chip racket, as exemplified by xilinx (see thread), where 'by the time the docs leak, not only we stopped making it 15 years ago but go and buy even secondhand one!' -- remains operational.
asciilifeform: i do not yet know a pill against it.
asciilifeform: the gabriel_laddel approach -- 'oh hey i'll just pave over the swamp, nothing will ever fall through the pavement' -- also does not work, and is quite destructive to the sanity of folks who attempt it
asciilifeform: this, afaik, leaves 'get considerably reduced expectations of what comp can do, and start making out of 1980s parts, and TTL' -- which is great, except no bitcoin
asciilifeform: and -- for completeness -- Fyootoor Tech that mircea_popescu knows about, and asciilifeform -- does not.
asciilifeform: ( twist: 'fyootoor tech', mircea_popescu will reveal, is gurls with abacus )
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, asciilifeform has been greatly enjoying a truly hilarious biography of kim il-sung : http://militera.lib.ru/bio/balkansky_a01/index.html
asciilifeform: phf ^ might enjoy also.
phf nods
phf: i'll check it out
asciilifeform: also, quite unrelatedly, but lulzy, polonium-210 in konsoomer product : http://www.amstat.com/staticmaster-2/staticmaster-ionizers
mircea_popescu: in random lulz, from the 90s : psx came out in 1994 iirc, and utterly wiped the market. half the developers active were caught with excessive 16 bit cartridge inventory and within 18 months were bankrupt. it owned so hardcore, esp with ff7 coming out for it, that for ~ 3 years there were no new offerings in the console market.
asciilifeform: sony psx ?
asciilifeform: didn't it use cdrom ?
asciilifeform: and in '03 ?
mircea_popescu: THEN, the dreamcast came out in 1999. sold well originally but then flagged, for all sorts of reasons. to do with final engineering and social effects (their controllers sucked, their cds were fragile, the average market prefered cheap and abundant psx games to excellent but rare and expensive dc stuff.)
asciilifeform: ( maybe mircea_popescu was thinking of sega's 'saturn' ? )
mircea_popescu: so sega, in desperation, introduced a "minimum sales program". whereby, if the developer didn't meet a minimum value of sales
mircea_popescu: SEGA PAID THE DIFFERENCE.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're thinking of tyhe ps2
asciilifeform: what was psx ?
mircea_popescu: original ps came out 1994.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they called the first playstation psx back i nthe day. then they cannibalized it later on.
asciilifeform: original ps also used cdrom, not cartridge
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: the point here being, again, to restate : if the developer didn't meet a minimum value of sales, sega paid the difference.
asciilifeform rereads
asciilifeform: aaah.
mircea_popescu: this notion that i will support the wintel FOR FREE is the lolz of all time.
mircea_popescu: how about intel starts paying.
asciilifeform: dunno why anybody would want to prop it up even for pay.
mircea_popescu: because i sure as fuck don't want "free trade" and "open whatever" and "accessiblity" if what that means is that intel gets to rule it.
mircea_popescu: and "foundations" SURE AS FUCK don't count as an improvement here.
asciilifeform: it simply gotta die, pay has 0 to do with it.
mircea_popescu: "w3c" wants to set web standards, it'd better PAY UP FOR THEM BEING SUPPORTED
mircea_popescu: i ain't implementing nobody's standards for free.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. bleeds first.
asciilifeform: ^ is exactly how i see not only intel, but pci, usb, et al.
asciilifeform: burn it all.
mircea_popescu: of course you don't support it anyway. obviously. BUT IT FIRST PAYS THROUGH THE TEETH FOR THIS!
mircea_popescu: do things right.
asciilifeform: unfortunately merely talking about 'monopolist scum must die' -- does not kill any; intel still would answer, if octopus could speak, 'aaah lol, have fun porting eulora to abacus'
mircea_popescu: anyway. this'll do fine for a stock answer to the people inquiring why $random-"standard" isn't supported. the account is delinquent. they owe a lot of money and are trying to defraud us of it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform good for it. whatever the delinquent debtor says matters little.
mircea_popescu: way i figure it intel owes tmsr about 1bn in license fees, royalties and late penalties.
asciilifeform: how does mircea_popescu go about collecting ?
asciilifeform: or is this fyootoor-tech.
mircea_popescu: that is an entirely separate matter.
asciilifeform: ( and how to collect, from vermin ? what do mice and rats have, that you might want ? )
mircea_popescu: they can worry about that.
asciilifeform: upstack , re 'dreamcast' -- asciilifeform's brother was involved in making game for it. the hardware was superb.
mircea_popescu: yeah. it suffered mightily in what i called "final engineering". great food badly packaged so to speak
asciilifeform: mere handful of games, for, what, whole year post release.
asciilifeform: was quite enough to nail it.
mircea_popescu: terrible controllers.
mircea_popescu: actually to this day, famously bad controllers.
mircea_popescu: but the point being : nintendo utterly owned a market, which some years later had the n64 people killed for used as paperweights. sony owned the market, then lost to microsoft, and so following. this notion that intel has a hope in hell is about as ludicrous as the nonsense career bureaucrats in washington built their lives on.
mircea_popescu: "the demographics" were going to keep clinton in office forever so these schmucks could pay the mortgages they made aged 28 back in 1994. hurr.
asciilifeform: intel inherited ibm monopoly -- which is what, 110 yrs+ nao
asciilifeform: not quite nintendo.
mircea_popescu: don't be ridiculous. the ibm at came out in the 80s.
asciilifeform: nope.
asciilifeform: ibm sold tabulators in 1890s
mircea_popescu: and in this interval, they lost the whole market, all they got left is chips.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and wm did pony express runs, wtf's your point omg.
asciilifeform: point being that it is one of the great american giants, like GE
asciilifeform: circa same period.
asciilifeform: 'tbtf'
mircea_popescu: this is rank nosense entirely bereft of any meaning. you might as well recount your dreams.
asciilifeform: dun become tru simply by mircea_popescu saying it.
mircea_popescu: well no, it doesn't.
asciilifeform: 1st class xerxes sea whippin'.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1037.41, vol: 7556.49112154 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1061.999, vol: 7035.28327 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1038.1, vol: 22140.19171893 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1016.404356, vol: 3688.23710000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1035.898, vol: 2272.6432217 | Volume-weighted last average: 1039.92464331
asciilifeform: understand, i very much wish to live to see mircea_popescu's prediction come alive
asciilifeform: 'house burns, but at least the bedbugs die'
mircea_popescu: this isn't teh actual word tho. dun rewrite teh bible!
asciilifeform: tru
asciilifeform: in re intel, it gotta die, but if it 'dies' merely by getting a chinese board of directors, but continues to produce ye olde x86 liquishit, with 35 yrs of idiocy built on top -- then didn't really die, not yet.
mircea_popescu: yes well, if your notion of "intel dies" === "the end of stupidity in any and all palpable form" then surely the roman empire still lives embodied in general motors.
asciilifeform: a burn-off of the accumulated stupidity to date, would be a great start.
asciilifeform: put pci, dma, usb, etc. to bed, for good.
asciilifeform: put von neumann, finally , to bed.
mircea_popescu: not entirely impossible. just distant.
asciilifeform: looks like we don't disagree: distant.
mircea_popescu: aite then.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://archive.is/QUcCh >> 'U.S.-Israeli teen arrested in Israel over bomb threats to Jewish centers'. 'A young Israeli man who also holds U.S. citizenship was arrested in Israel on Thursday on suspicion of making dozens of hoax bomb threats against Jewish community centers in the United States and several other countries. At a court hearing near Tel Aviv, the suspect's defense attorney said the young man has a growth
asciilifeform: in his head that causes behavioral problems.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
BingoBoingo: Is the growth his nose?
asciilifeform: in yet other noose, https://wikileaks.org/vault7/darkmatter << part2: crapple edition (fw infectors for same, etc.)
asciilifeform: 'Also included in this release is the manual for the CIA's "NightSkies 1.2" a "beacon/loader/implant tool" for the Apple iPhone. Noteworthy is that NightSkies had reached 1.2 by 2008, and is expressly designed to be physically installed onto factory fresh iPhones. i.e the CIA has been infecting the iPhone supply chain of its targets since at least 2008.'
asciilifeform: lulzy bit of disinfo, also (as if virginal pnojes were 'clean'.)
asciilifeform: the bit with diddled nic dongles is lulzy.
asciilifeform: the trick is not crapple-specific, either, most new laptop includes 'thunderbolt' plug, which is simply external pci
asciilifeform: over which you can then dma, etc.
asciilifeform: and oh hey hey hey lbj:
asciilifeform: a broadcom GB nic datashit.
asciilifeform: in this lulzbag.
asciilifeform: ( https://wikileaks.org/vault7/darkmatter/document/FDOS_1_0_FINAL_B57udiag/ )
asciilifeform: nm. was public for eons (e.g., ftp://ftp.tyan.com/LAN/Broadcom/B57BCMCD826/EFI/UserDiag/b57diag.pdf )
asciilifeform: ( and 0 blob seekrits. )
phf: in totally unrelated, i just learned that bash (and ksh) support "Brace Expansion", e.g. {0..3} => 0 1 2 3 or {a..d} => a b c d.
phf: actually there's more in the relevant section, but these two use cases i've often missed, and have no idea how i didn't know about them till now
asciilifeform: ( in which cia directorate, gotta wonder, do they keep the uncastrated datashits. )
asciilifeform: phf: interesting, and i don't recall ever seeing it used
phf: {0..100} works as expected!
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They probably hide them at the Canada desk
phf: i have a tool in my scripts folder, seq (e.g. seq 0 100) that does the same thing, and that i end up rewriting every once in a while
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/usg-nsa-head-rogers-perjured-self-on-eavesdropping/ << Qntra - USG.NSA Head Rogers Perjured Self On Eavesdropping
phf: i've never seen it used either, saw an example of it in recent poc||gtfo
Framedragger: phf: just curious, you wrote `seq` yourself? 'cuz bash already has seq built-in
Framedragger: (seq --help)
phf: til
doppler: well to be precise bash doesn't actually have a seq builtin
doppler: but it does have brace expansion which largely serves the same basic purpose
phf: i wonder how i've managed to never notice it. i use seq all over my scripts, and i have an own copy of seq too. i wonder how many times i was missing my seq just to fallback to stock :o
Framedragger: doppler: ah right, seq is actually a binary, fancy that (so works outside bash - hence why various .sh scripts use seq instead of bash's {} i guess, to be more compatible? just a guess)
Framedragger: hehe :)
doppler: I use seq all the time when I write posix sh scripts (brace expansion is specific to certain shells)
doppler: yeah, pretty much
ben_vulpes: doppler: welcome to the wot, who is companioncube?
Framedragger: !!v CB100C13DC966135F1D4D0FD4FBDC994EEAA381B961D96516A407FA51DAD3151
deedbot: Framedragger rated doppler 1 << fresh blood / computer guy; his dad does account management
doppler: dude I know from another channel
doppler: thanks for the welcome
ben_vulpes: there are other chans using deedbot wot?
ben_vulpes: this i gotta see
ben_vulpes: or whatever, no need to cramp your style
doppler: nah, not as far as I know
doppler: but CC knows about this place
doppler: we were testing out the rating system
ben_vulpes: any idea of why he doesn't hang out here?
doppler: no idea :)
ben_vulpes: #trilema-lounge in action already
doppler: oh yeah, another thing about seq: it's not actually part of posix, and neither is BSD's jot(1)
doppler: so being fully compatible is a real pain
Framedragger: here i have seq but no jot. i see, so no guarantee
asciilifeform: in other lulz, didjaknow, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/paymentserver.cpp#L111 << prb imports ssl certs ! the whole shit soup
asciilifeform: ( for how long nao ? i seem to recall that even gavin barfed, originally, from this, it was how hearn was booted out ..? )
ben_vulpes: hyu, no i did not know
ben_vulpes: yeah i mean it makes as much sense as any of the other magic green lock stuff
asciilifeform: reading that horror, it'd seem as if this were the heathen alternative to, e.g., http://shop.nosuchlabs.com ( and bbet, and similar )
asciilifeform: 'payment protocol' lol.
asciilifeform: the sheer depth of the retardation, ( https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawiki ) >> 'Human-readable, secure payment destinations-- customers will be asked to authorize payment to "example.com" instead of an inscrutable, 34-character bitcoin address.' 'Resistance from man-in-the-middle attacks that replace a merchant's bitcoin address with an attacker's address before a transaction is authorized with a hardware w
asciilifeform: allet.'
asciilifeform: ^ aaaanythingbutrsa!!!!
asciilifeform: kinda hilarious, while the two 'cans of campbell soup' duke it out over massive-blox vs elephantine-blox, boring ol' workaday usgolade, e.g. 'pki', quietly made it into all prb variants
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1632046 << well... yeah...☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 19:44 phf: in totally unrelated, i just learned that bash (and ksh) support "Brace Expansion", e.g. {0..3} => 0 1 2 3 or {a..d} => a b c d.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1632082 << yeah.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 20:48 asciilifeform: in other lulz, didjaknow, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/paymentserver.cpp#L111 << prb imports ssl certs ! the whole shit soup
mircea_popescu: something something merchants payments something dorkitude.
trinque: hola from new outpost
asciilifeform: heya trinque
asciilifeform: no moar texas ?
ben_vulpes: hola trinque
trinque: asciilifeform: nah, just downtown Houston vs formerly burbs
asciilifeform: oh neato