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Framedragger: amen to that, mr. cocktail.
asciilifeform: welcome , john_cocktail
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cure, i realized, is that ~some~ of the oldtx selected by Z must depend on value of prev block, so as to prevent waltzing of Z 'until all i need is the 10% i'm fraudulently storing instead of the 100%' .
asciilifeform: sorta how student might get to select a few exam questions from a pool, but there are others that are mandatory.
mircea_popescu: it;s not entirely certain this is needed, even.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the exact way to apply luby to it prolly can take more thinking. but hte idea certainly has merit.
asciilifeform: no, but it may be needed to get absolute certainty.
asciilifeform: the one thing that definitely cannot be permitted to be manipulable by a waltzer is the arity. (there'd be overwhelming incentive to waltz for minimal arity)
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mircea_popescu: any
mircea_popescu: anyway, re ^ : romanian mythical-hero math professor (moisil) famously allowed students to pick questions.
mircea_popescu: "you can't know math PARTIALLY well."
asciilifeform: pretty much
asciilifeform had a prof who permitted students to bring 'all of the crib sheets and books you can carry on your miserable back, it won't help'
asciilifeform: 'bring whatever calculator, bring supercomputer if you like'
mircea_popescu: brin ?
asciilifeform: who else.
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: but, upstack, conundrum is, if some of the oldtx depend on prevblock in a way that is known immediately when said block was mined -- it gives a head start to plagiarists ( per earlier observation -- folx who take a freshly-mined block and try to make ~replacement~ for it with higher PoW.) but if they are ~not~ immediately known, and depend in any way on waltzeable Z, then 'haha i'll waltz until it falls in my 10%'.
mircea_popescu: however forcing one to keep A PORTION of blockchain is not altogether a bad outcome ; it is better than the current "forces to keep nothing -- and they provably, as historical fact, DID NOT!" and through lubby ensures blockchain is never lost.
asciilifeform: so it seems to me that what remains is to up the arity -- find such arity that any attempt at such waltzing is guaranteed to be ~useless
asciilifeform: or this.
mircea_popescu: to make it perfectly clear -- the reason blockchain still exists today is not the 2015 miners.
asciilifeform: yea
asciilifeform: the snake, lost his legs, aha.
asciilifeform: didn't need'em.
mircea_popescu: aha
danielpbarron: is it possible to do a lossless pruning on this lubby thing? say some chunk of data kept in an early blk.dat can be removed and the whole thing still verifies because the missing piece can be re-produced from data in more recent blk.dat ?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it is possible to make a hole through a man's torso , in such a way that he does not die. but not desirable.
mircea_popescu: deedbot to 1/3rd or such
mircea_popescu: i mean danielpbarron
asciilifeform: and yes you can compute the odds of a particular block B ending up wholly lubyized by a time T. however if you rely on the luby strings for your mining, you will be fucked timewise.
asciilifeform: if you want to competitively mine, you gotta have the blox in O(1) at your fingertip.
danielpbarron: if you don't care about mining though?
danielpbarron: and if you ever decided to mine, you could use what you have to make the rest
mircea_popescu: it still wouldn't be true pruning.
mircea_popescu: just... a sort of zipping
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is right, i waas abouittosay
asciilifeform: it is simply compression
asciilifeform: you replace a block you know to have been fully lubyized with a 'if you want this, go and find'. BUT what, now you have an empty string there ..
asciilifeform: how does this save you any effort
asciilifeform: blocks are, recall, constant size, if you want O(1) block fetching (and as a verifying node, you certainly do) you win 0 by compressing.
asciilifeform: you still have a block-shaped hole occupying every slot.
asciilifeform: 'pruning' is for the birds, folx.
asciilifeform: it is a notion fundamentally incompatible with sanity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform without some kind of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619177 the situation is apperoximately one where naive idiots got their wish, and no bacteria exist.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 16:56 mircea_popescu: but the correct trb-i might just as well end up this situation where block reward is 1mn bitcoin, and it dies within 1mn blocks. so all mining does is produce ~ a lease ~ on a chunk of bitcoin. and the value of old bitcoin is monotonically decreasing over their lifetime.
mircea_popescu: lenin, as well as everyone else, can still be admired exactly as they were
mircea_popescu: and an apple costs a fortune.
asciilifeform: a nonfungible coin is not very interesting.
asciilifeform: ( i was convinced of this very quickly after coming up with my 'shitcoin' thing )
mircea_popescu: there is that.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, a non-amounts coin is by definition unfungible.
asciilifeform: well unless you also have the ring thing
mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: you're starting to grok this.
danielpbarron: that's where quality comes in. perhaps you can mix old coins with new and the result is somewhere in the middle 'age' wise. and when coin's quality reaches 0 it stops existing
asciilifeform: that's kinda what we have now neh
asciilifeform: dust is 'quality reached 0'
mircea_popescu: not really. i can still send dust.
asciilifeform: not if per-kb fee makes it -ev neh
mircea_popescu: coin age baby.
mircea_popescu: mindblowingly, still a thing in 2017.
asciilifeform: miners could piss on coin age starting tonight, if they felt like it.
mircea_popescu: but they apparently don't.
asciilifeform: they don't, because apparently this 'bus' is ~empty
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform freshly re-read mircea_popescu's 'empty airplanes' thing )
asciilifeform: it also helps that the current crop of miners is almost clinically retarded
mircea_popescu: not a bad piece if i do say so myself. but yes, perhaps that's what it is.
asciilifeform: but , upstack, when i think about trbi i go into 'bridge design' mode, where 'it gotta bear all of the tanks that could possibly physically fit, and then let's also assume that martians stack'em five layers deep '
asciilifeform: rather than the current '~nobody actually uses bitcoin' situation
asciilifeform: idea being, any 'ecological' problem, with, e.g., algorithmic complexities as t-->+inf, can seem insignificant -- but enemy can waltz it into an actual problem.
asciilifeform: in something short of 'ecological' timespans, even.
asciilifeform: ( witness the effects of the 900+kB of rubbish that usg is piping into each block today )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: incidentally i suspect that a regenesised fork would begin to gather steam long before http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-02#1621006 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-02 00:38 mircea_popescu: and an apple costs a fortune.
mircea_popescu: the principle of the thing.
asciilifeform: ( in meatspace this is also known as 'civilizational death' and happens regularly )
asciilifeform: explicit 'telomeres' are still mega-improvement over the old state of the art .
asciilifeform: this goes immediately back to mircea_popescu's koschei piece.
mircea_popescu: all the weird, pointless random shit on trilema that has nothing to do with anything!
asciilifeform: lelz
mircea_popescu: anyway. laterz.
PeterL: while we are talking about things to stick in TRB-I, how about lowering the block size by an order of magnitude or so?
PeterL: decrease the total disk usage, and improve the txn fee market, win/win, right?
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1222.0, vol: 5837.97674068 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1197.001, vol: 6466.22206 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1221.8, vol: 26110.22608067 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1151.3572, vol: 5485.60340000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1223.205, vol: 2296.66480145 | Volume-weighted last average: 1210.05927445
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency eur
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 1158.8226, vol: 5837.69994068 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 1147.846, vol: 94.73656 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 1092.7196, vol: 5482.10340000 | Kraken BTCEUR last: 1154.1, vol: 8929.95910755 | Volume-weighted last average: 1138.88620387
ben_vulpes: great
ben_vulpes: again
ben_vulpes: great
ben_vulpes: again
BingoBoingo: Make World Great Again!
BingoBoingo: Make 2017 2013 Againe!
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/fiat-currencies-appear-to-enter-period-of-sustained-malaise/ << Qntra - Fiat Currencies Appear To Enter Period Of Sustained Malaise
ben_vulpes: in other truly top notch lols, "Moreover, the executive order forces Oregon to violate its own laws against discrimination, frustrating Oregon's sovereign interest in providing a welcoming home to people from all over the world"
ben_vulpes: oregon is a sovereign, dontchaknow! has...interests!
BingoBoingo: 4 srs though, Oregon was founded to explicitly NOT be open to all
ben_vulpes: tell a nigga bout it
ben_vulpes: those interests are pretty much providing a home to the royal sons of whereverthefuckistan, and effete boys with which they frolic
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/pronouncements-on-camp/ << Trilema - Pronouncements on camp
asciilifeform: in other noose, https://archive.is/D3jVT << 'An editor on the board of a journal published by the prestigious American Psychological Association (APA) has been asked to resign in a controversy over data sharing in peer review.
asciilifeform: Gert Storms — who says he won’t step down — is one of a few hundred scientists who have vowed that, from the start of this year, they will begin rejecting papers if authors won’t publicly share the underlying data, or explain why they can’t.'
asciilifeform: 'The journal's editor, Robert Greene, wrote back to say that Storms’s stance set “a terrible precedent” because it was unfair to the author of the paper and opposed the APA’s policies and the guidelines followed by other reviewers. “Given that your policy conflicts with that of the journal, I think that it's best that you step down from the editorial board,” he wrote.'
asciilifeform: !!up bobbie_pasta
deedbot: bobbie_pasta voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: http://archive.is/rcxIg <<< Run Bitcoin Unlimited!!!!
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu how do you picture tx fee working with non-divisible coin ?
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: i don't.
asciilifeform: so it'd have to be one of those schemes where mining isn't even a thing; or at the very least has nothing to do with cementing tx
asciilifeform does not know a working, even in principle, algo for these.
mircea_popescu: how do you imagine tx fee working with "mining is a bug" ?
mircea_popescu: no fees, no problem.
asciilifeform: other than - possibly - the matrix thing
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'every user a currency issuer' is the only 'solution' i currently know to 'mining-is-a-bug'
mircea_popescu: that is mathematically equivalent to "no fee".
asciilifeform: and it rather resembles those infamous star drive engines, e.g., alcubierre's drive
mircea_popescu: yep. i vituperated against the nonsesne in the 2011s, because well, nonsense.
asciilifeform: one of the problems classical mined blocks solved was - universal event ordering
mircea_popescu: quite. there's 0 incentive for people to stick to a chain otherwise.
asciilifeform: ( and again i can picture a 'coin' lacking cemented event ordering . but it would not be a 'coin' in any reasonable sense of today. only a bag full of promises. )
mircea_popescu: an ~unordered~ bag.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: people fail to correctly comprehend the batshit insanity that is an unorderd bag because common reality graciously provides default orderings in all cases
asciilifeform: without cemented ordering, the concept of 'double spend' cannot be defined
mircea_popescu: this is a resource oft taken for granted
asciilifeform: (which spend is 'the' spend? and which -- the double)
asciilifeform: it is worth recalling the gedankenexperiment where it turns out that all you'd need to build 'martian bank' on earth, is if martians merely supplied an infallible 'martian clock', a service whereby they take a string S , at regular, say, daily, interval, and return its hash H
asciilifeform: then you have the ordering. and 'mining' can consist of, e.g., finding twin-primes and rsa-staking the claim to them, then submitting to martiandeedbot.
asciilifeform: ( and a tx can be a once-per-Hinterval thing where you gotta roll in the previous interval's hash. and the day's tx form the day's H. )
asciilifeform: this is quite trivial .
asciilifeform: but there is no martian clock.
mircea_popescu: and timekeeping for free doesn't seem to be a tenable proposition.
mircea_popescu: not even the marine chronometer dudes aimed to make it COSTLESS
asciilifeform: as phf's b00k illustrates, the cost of the chronometers remained a serious boojum well into 1900s
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: but even the finest handmade chronometer does not approach in cost, the cost of ~synchronization~
mircea_popescu: which is why there's a fee.
asciilifeform: esp. synchronization in the face of enemy action
mircea_popescu: no enemy can measure up to the voids.
asciilifeform: for sake of argument, let's draw the engineless car, and then possibly one day can conceive of the engine. say all C coins exist at genesis. (how distributed to owners -- outside the scope here.) each consist of a lamport pubkey;
asciilifeform: to spend a coin, its owner obtains (out of band) a new lamport pubkey from the new owner, and signs it.
mircea_popescu: it's not clear what the meaning of "coin" is supposed to be without the owner.
asciilifeform: then broadcasts this.
asciilifeform: think of it as land.
mircea_popescu: suppose i think of it as random strings.
mircea_popescu: otherwise this too much resembles the ai problem of thought();
mircea_popescu: well... "ai" at any rate.
asciilifeform: now, this thing just sits and rusts, because it cannot move. there is no way to prevent anybody from signing multiple, conflicting transfers.
mircea_popescu: there is no sane way to lay claim of ownership to random strings
mircea_popescu: and no, "i was the first to mash 1 into the kbd eighty-nine million times" is not it.
asciilifeform: right, because the only way to demonstrate ownership is to transfer it to the party being demonstrated to.
mircea_popescu: right, within some sort of system
mircea_popescu: pre-defined etc.
asciilifeform: now this car has not only no engine, but no wheels, there is no incentive for ~anybody to even try to store a coherent history of the world.
asciilifeform: much less to do so in real time.
mircea_popescu: the circle stayed round this time around.
asciilifeform: now to complete this sad picture, i have nfi where to get any such thing as an engine, or wheels, for this machine.
asciilifeform: it is approx. as interesting as davinci's chopper.
mircea_popescu: no, because he at least had talent as a draughtsman.
asciilifeform: aha, you won't be seeing this one in any art gallery.
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is the sum-total intellectual output of tardstalk "bitcoin theory" thinking for 2011.
asciilifeform: so afaik we're solidly stuck with ye olde tx, blocks, PoW.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i admit that i have not attempted to unearth and catalogue the 2011 folxs' attempts to square the circle.
mircea_popescu: no loss whatever.
asciilifeform: can only assume that if there had been some interesting find, someone here might remember it.
asciilifeform: but afaik it summed to 0.
mircea_popescu: i certainly would have.
asciilifeform: and so it also appears that we're stuck living with cuttable coins.
mircea_popescu: whether stuck or not remains debatable, but what's certain is that this gal's going straight home from the battered women shelter.
asciilifeform: (barring some crackpotitude where you somehow buy 'casks' in bulk, a solid coin at a time )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you have some -- rigorous or not -- idea of how 'remains debatable' ? because afaik you gotta square this circle if you want noncuttables.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi. same way everything is done that we don't know how to do.
asciilifeform: btw i have a terrible solution, that technically works, but is barfalicious
asciilifeform: i wonder if by now mircea_popescu also guessed what it is.
mircea_popescu: hm ?
asciilifeform: morts.
mircea_popescu: what, you want to sacrifice virgins ?
asciilifeform: your 'fee' is a small positive probability of losing your entire tx to the miner.
danielpbarron: heh, eulora style
mircea_popescu: terrible profile for a paymeny medium.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: you folx did this?! lol!!
mircea_popescu: but yes, eulora style.
asciilifeform has ~nfi re eulora mechanics
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm involved, remember.
danielpbarron: some clicks in eulora, you have no idea what comes out and most of the time you don't like it
shinohai: ^
asciilifeform: but yes, this is one way to pay a % of something that cannot be cut.
asciilifeform: 'you'll lose 1 of N'
shinohai: Eulora is the perfect engine of the cardinal rule of unfairness.
asciilifeform: at any rate i have difficulty picturing users of coin swallowing this.
asciilifeform: (though users of suitcases of benjies do. there is a certain P of losing the payload to usg en route)
asciilifeform: or of the boat, to the sea serpents. etc.
danielpbarron: that isn't to say there aren't ways to find clicks that work well, or that in the long run the seemingly bad ones don't pay off
mircea_popescu: note that boats never became currency. almost everything else did.
mircea_popescu: there's even a piece in the founding papers about it.
asciilifeform: to this very day satellite industry lives with payload loss P that would have been familiar to columbus.
asciilifeform: but yes,not currency.
asciilifeform: but, upstack, afaik the cold equations have no mercy, if you want miners to deal with tx, gotta pay fee, and fee has to somehow come out of txer's pocket .
asciilifeform: now iirc we touched on the crackpottery where a ~tx~ carries PoW, and tx issuers somehow have to get in a single-file queue to avoid orphaning one another, and at a certain point 'lucky winner' (in practice, folx with disproportionate - a la today's miners - hash power) crosses a threshhold PoW and gets to finalize a block.
asciilifeform: a 'cask' system would make the queue at least thinkable. but still very painful.
mircea_popescu: it's not clear the notion oflbock is actually useful outside of "no hash per tx" sort of collectivism.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ordering.
mircea_popescu: a block is like a bus - eschews the need for every child and woman to maintain an engine.
mircea_popescu: no, because you may require txn to include previous txn.
mircea_popescu: tx-sized-block.
mircea_popescu: there's no rule that this space fortress must seat > 1.
asciilifeform: where do new coinz come from ?
asciilifeform: ( if answer is 'nowhere, all coins exist at genesis' -- we're back to the rusting engineless thing )
mircea_popescu: from difficulty.
mircea_popescu: each txn gets its difficulty coins on top of whatever.
mircea_popescu: 1 btc input 1.1 btc output 10mn difficulty txn checks out.
mircea_popescu: monetary mass at all points = aggregate difficulty to date. it's even (sanely) inflationary.
mircea_popescu: burn a watt, get a scrip coin.
asciilifeform: what's the incentive to relay anything ?
asciilifeform: ( other problem is that orphaning -- and, likely, of almost arbitrary length -- would be the rule, rather than the exception. )
mircea_popescu: yea well.
asciilifeform: it's another 'star drive'.
asciilifeform: 'all you need is a miniature black hole and some duct tape! otherwise, 100% solid physics!1111'
mircea_popescu: unrelatedly : both the "conservative" and the "nazi" candidates to french elections are being prosecuted by the "state" socialism for hallucinated misdeeds (they hired family members as assistents fictitiously|!11). the influence of inept obamaism and his kidnapping of french candidate last time around clearly left no scars, hurr.
mircea_popescu: they're both pissing on the french legal system, of course. obviously trump left no marks either.
asciilifeform: i seem to recall that it ~worked~
mircea_popescu: speaking of which last bit, you should see how vocal macri is these days! he's suddenly found himself very opinionated and shit!
mircea_popescu: everyone's on all fours after the republican electorate, somehow. INEXPLICABLY, i guess, because trilema rather than the new york times told them to, and of course everyone listens to one of those not the other!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform from an us pov it backfired miserably.
asciilifeform: how's that? they wanted the d00d out of the fr election -- and he was out.
mircea_popescu: no. they wanted sarkozy, and figured taking him out would help. taking him out propelled a) hollande and b) le pen.
mircea_popescu: neither of these are good, and in any case the us' days in europe are numbered. trump is mostly saving face with all the rhetoric.
asciilifeform: well sorta why usg is setting off the demolition charges (the syrian horde) in eu
asciilifeform: 'we can't have it? aite, scuttling nao'
mircea_popescu: sounds just about inept enough to have come out of the dept of state sewing circle.
asciilifeform: the folx who could -- any day of the week -- give the order to have all 'migrants' met with flamethrowers - answer to exactly usg dos sewing circle
asciilifeform: and so they don;t.
mircea_popescu: this is so naive i'm not going to entertain it. let's get back to cryptocoinz naivites.
asciilifeform: aite. but i'm all outta circle-squaring methods, having listed all of the ones i presently know of.
asciilifeform bbl.
ben_vulpes: can anyone recommend a paper or book with a rigorous definition of "computationally secure pseudo-random number generator"?
asciilifeform: ok i cannot resist answering ben_vulpes . because he will find answer in encyclopaedia, but it will not be an actual answer, but only a thought-extinguisher.
asciilifeform: the mandatory thread is here -- http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-01#1620768 ( and linked subthreads with mircea_popescu . )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-01 22:04 asciilifeform: it keeps coming back
asciilifeform: a 'secure prng' is fundamentally THE SAME animal as the 'secure hash' and the 'secure blockcipher'.
asciilifeform: the prng has a time parameter, but it is spurious, it is really just the same as a hash, with same requirements
asciilifeform: in both cases, you wish to prevent inversion of the function
asciilifeform: in the hash's case, for anyone to go from H(S) to S ; in prng -- for anyone to go from any section of the output stream, to the seed .
asciilifeform: you can see that they are the same, because an 'ideal' prng can be trivially turned into a ciphrator; or a hasher ;
asciilifeform: ideal hasher - into a prng (as pictured in, e.g., casks piece intro) ; an ideal cipher - into either of the two others.
asciilifeform: they are sides of the same triangle.
asciilifeform: however the triangle is imaginary, because -- as you will learn from the linked thread tree earlier (and not from any public literature ! elsewhere afaik) -- we know about complexity classes , as discovered by cook et al ; but we do NOT know of any means of generating ~instances~ of problems falling into given class with ~guaranteed~ average-case hardness.
mircea_popescu: average case is a cop out.
mircea_popescu: easiest case lower bound is the requirement.
mircea_popescu: hardest case upper bound is the discussion literature
asciilifeform: aha, hardest-case is ~entirely uninteresting in crypto
mircea_popescu: they are discussing "how easy it is" and mislabel it as "how hard it is". but at no point is their discussion actually about how hard anything is.
asciilifeform: however mircea_popescu , this is not quite right, the 'lower bound' is always O(1) for the d00d who knows the key !
asciilifeform: and the d00d who does ~not~ know the key, has a nonzero P of guessing whole thing !
mircea_popescu: easiest nondegenerate case lower bound
asciilifeform: so it is always a matter of avg case.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the value of a winning lottery ticket = the value of the prize. lucky guys are worth money.
asciilifeform: what you want to prove (and nobody has, for any system) is that the necessary work is equivalent to brute force guess.
mircea_popescu: that';d work.
asciilifeform: ( according to maslennikov, kgb directorate of crypto struggled with the fundamental boojum and simply gave up, and turned to turd polishing )
asciilifeform: logicgate-poverty, according to him, prevented asymmetric crypto from taking off in su, and so this ^ was the obsession. for a while.
asciilifeform: upstack : ben_vulpes : the 'triangle' is aka 'trapdoor function', and it is not known whether they actually exist. ( folx go around pretending that they exist. does not make it so. )
mircea_popescu: the entire story of the "olympiad problems" (the fly between trains thing et al) is a fine indication of just how hard this sort of thing is, irl.
asciilifeform: much of academitard 'cryptography' is an elaborate dance around the fact that nobody knows, publicly, of any solid axioms that were unknown to von neumann.
mircea_popescu: which is why "solve problem x" is undergraduate work ; prove solution is optimal is lifetime work.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: sometimes 'prove that a solution ~exists~ is lifetime work.
asciilifeform: or 10 lifetimes.
mircea_popescu: in other news im reading this hemingway interview and why the fuck was this guy such a dork and why does he only go out with ugly women.
shinohai: I recently watched that new Hemingway movie .... it was mildly entertaining.
shinohai: Coulda been the rum that made it palatable though.
mircea_popescu: new ? hasn't he been dead for 50 years ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: ty, mircea_popescu's line that '(I suspect USGtards would call it a "PRNG")' had me thinking in that line
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the few honest cryptographers that exist, will prove that your arse is staked on ~this here~ set of unproven conjectures, and nothing else.
asciilifeform: but this is small comfort, just like to say that honest undertaker will at least make sure you are actually dead before burying
asciilifeform: incidentally if you can prove that trapdoors exist, you've necessarily proven that P!=NP.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this discussion vaguely reminds me of pound
mircea_popescu: "i will know what part of poetry can NOT be lost in translation."
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> in other news im reading this hemingway interview and why the fuck was this guy such a dork and why does he only go out with ugly women. << Beer goggles
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> new ? hasn't he been dead for 50 years ? << Ate an abercrombie and fitch shotgun, likely movie about the guy
mircea_popescu: but pound didn't drink and did you see what fucking chinplowers he hang out with ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno why they even make these women that are half chin.
BingoBoingo: Well, chin is like an off switch
mircea_popescu: ha
BingoBoingo: Just apply torque!
mircea_popescu: are you suggesting they're trying to capture more torque from environment ? adaptative megalochin ?
BingoBoingo: Maybe? Maybe hemmingways select womyn for chin, because easy to turn off when aggitated?
mircea_popescu: cuz blurry vision cuz whisky ?
BingoBoingo: AHA, just like large print text
ben_vulpes: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-announce&m=148839684520133&w=2
ben_vulpes: open bsd mitm
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i dun even grasp how this is a vuln, it isn't as if 802.11 has rsa-authenticated endpoints to begin with
asciilifeform: 'toy crypto auth is slightly easier to forge than the usual five minutes', noose at eleven.
BingoBoingo assumed WPA was routinely MITM'd for what it is
mircea_popescu: incidentally re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-02#1621225 : a large part of the stagnancy in applied number theory for the past ... o hey, it's a century soon! has to do with everyone wanting to do the work without doing the work.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-02 18:23 asciilifeform: much of academitard 'cryptography' is an elaborate dance around the fact that nobody knows, publicly, of any solid axioms that were unknown to von neumann.
mircea_popescu: it seems altogether unlikely this particular truth will come out of more futzing with algebraic strucutres
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: spot on, as always
mircea_popescu: but the lazy just won't let go of the holy ring. the idle complification, towards vector spaces, latices et all is just the toil of avoiding doing any work.
ben_vulpes: also http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39140100
asciilifeform: lel nato-lite
mircea_popescu: lmao.
mircea_popescu: i hope they're only drafting women, yes ?
ben_vulpes: in which donny t demonstrates complete twitter mastery: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/836933725602656256
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would a male as much as spit for sweden
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/PArAt/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: in random lulz re the luminaries of this so called english literature and their chinxcavator belles : ezra pound had some 23yo named dorothy dropped on his head by her mother ; he also was fucking olga the violinist, who some friends dropped on his head when he was complaining he's been in paris for months and doesn't even have a mistress.
mircea_popescu: olga got caught, and delivered a daughter in summer 1925, which she didn't really feel like raising. ezra told dorothy later that year ; she left for egypt *by herself* and came back next march. pregnant.
mircea_popescu: kid, named omar, went to be raised in england.
mircea_popescu: by you know, the rich mother of the wife-slut. other kid (mary) grew up without shoes in the house of a peasant, who was paid 20 bux a month for it.
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/hoaxtoshi-returns-with-fiatist-patent-wank-forgets-tissues/ << Qntra - Hoaxtoshi Returns With Fiatist Patent Wank, Forgets Tissues
mircea_popescu: lmao
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1268.12, vol: 6613.32714439 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1251.287, vol: 8253.53327 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1269.9, vol: 29174.75084658 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1161.165852, vol: 6892.66030000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1260.493, vol: 2777.56509707 | Volume-weighted last average: 1252.38075479
BingoBoingo: Dat stabilitit
mircea_popescu: and in other americana, http://68.media.tumblr.com/6775e30043c1371eb7e80f4eec3d372c/tumblr_mlbbe3Vl5q1rgz1hoo1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: awwww ye
asciilifeform: q for prbologists, entomologists : why is schnorr signature algo so attractive to the prb folx ?
asciilifeform: ( iirc it is simply a variant of ecdsa. )
mircea_popescu: simplest ?
mircea_popescu: expired patent just about the time iirc
mircea_popescu: there's this nonsensical view that recently-expired patents are better tech because you know, "newer" (than older expired patents, presumably, for whatever sense this makes)
asciilifeform: why would a coin implementer give half a fuck re patents
asciilifeform: what is this, the gif wars ?
mircea_popescu: same reason he'd write against windows c.
asciilifeform: nuts.
asciilifeform: the 'let's use anything, ANYTHING but rsa' thing really grates on me.
mircea_popescu: on the face. there may be some merit to it in that : a) the chinese are mentally dull. i mean this specifically in the sense of chinese born baby ~= piece of furniture, funcially incapable of either finding a novel idea, evaluating it, or figuring out off own steam that should do this ; b) the euros are cuckolds. this means they're less likely to consider idea if the womenz boo hoo than if the womenz don't boo hoo ; c) the wo
mircea_popescu: menz boo hoo certain things, so satoshi ends up following.
mircea_popescu: it's inexcusable, but either a or b may explain.
asciilifeform: usa is a mighty twin-engined lulzengine of a+b.
mircea_popescu: ah listen, there's also http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/029.pdf
asciilifeform: i'ma put this on the conveyor
asciilifeform: but the result of reading this (spoiler!) for asciilifeform is usually mega-disappointment
asciilifeform: 'based on these unproven conjectures, and one or more unproven conjectures on which our logic relies, and one or more circularly-defined conditions, this scheme is secure, for our toy definition of secure that we will not share'
asciilifeform: aaaaaanything, anything to avoid handing giving back the yet-unfucked-once pig back to the late von neumann, and going back to sweeping airport floor.
mircea_popescu: better than most.
mircea_popescu: iirc guy showes group homomorphisms offer no better.
mircea_popescu: but decent overall discussion.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what means "giving back the yet-unfucked-once ping back to the late von neumann"?
ben_vulpes: pig*
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 0 provable improvements on otp.
asciilifeform: oooh hey hey hey lbj. i finally found out why prb folx like schnorr.
ben_vulpes: ah
asciilifeform: aaaapparently it is supposed to be homomorphic over multisigulation. i.e. you can glom multiple sigs of same string into 'one value'.
asciilifeform: classic prbism -- where is the proof that this does not create a phantom n+1st 'signer' ?
asciilifeform: ( who can then spend . )
asciilifeform: ' but oh, we'll save some bits!! '
asciilifeform: ' but of course not by abolishing 'scripts' or preventing spamolade tx, that'd be racist '
ben_vulpes: https://gradybritton.com/advertising/engaging-political-action-brand-rising-noise-without-alienating-consumers-2/ solid chuckles
ben_vulpes: the other day, one of these wha ads streaked across my vision and i was amused at how /female/ the campaign is
ben_vulpes: "in the pussy? in the mouth? in the butt? YES."
ben_vulpes: cracks in the edifice of ideological hegemony are starting to show, though: "You have the choice between standing for a cause or standing against whoever disagrees with you. One choice may result in a boycott. The other can build a bridge."
veen: linked from above: http://www.breitbart.com/dumpkelloggs/ << "bigotry at your breakfast table" haw haw
ben_vulpes: "tearing libtards arms off and beating them to death with them since before you quit facebook"
trinque: remember that country that cared whether a breakfast cereal company had a political opinion?
trinque: neither do I.
ben_vulpes: i like my highly-refined corn byproducts generously seasoned with WOKE
ben_vulpes: it's how i differentiate myself from the basket of undesirables; their hrcb comes with penises which is just i can't even
trinque: in other news, BingoBoingo's deed txn 771d53910d31b6cc038d457f57579ef60da9b29271a6e5f82df0ec8e9e32c50b has yet to confirm. I might have to increase deed fee a tad.
trinque: this is shocking because I hear there's no fee market!11!1
trinque: lol
veen: in other outdoor recreation of yesteryear, http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdycwgRQ1N1rlsqyto1_1280.jpg
danielpbarron: mega-vibrator
ben_vulpes: see also http://imgur.com/a/jiX1g
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the stuff you read
mircea_popescu: grady fucking britton ? holy hell.
mircea_popescu: been in business for what, 50 years, NEVER did anything above "the Random Q Nobody Highschool 10 Year Reunion" complete set of flyers + leaflets PLUS those napkin paper rings!
veen: they're on the map here for the 'planned parenthood by any other name' campaign
mircea_popescu: they're on the map in new york as "those dumb broads from almost west coast". at some point people were writing fanfic they're so ridoinculous.
mircea_popescu: WHAT WOULD GRADY BRITT DO!
mircea_popescu: trinque> this is shocking because I hear there's no fee market!11!1 << zing
mircea_popescu: veen you'd think the god damned bears of yesteryear would fucking shave before going within inches of a glorified lawnmower
mircea_popescu: but naaaaw
mircea_popescu: their mommy gave them that bush and by god they'll take it to paradise via the retirement home!
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i am but a lol-sniffing pig of the web
mircea_popescu: butt alol!
ben_vulpes: i have no butt and i must lol
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: might be interesting to add fee plot to your block viewer tool
asciilifeform: ( how many satoshi/byte avg ? median ? how many free riders..? etc )
mircea_popescu: ^
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-02#1621317 << january noose neh☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-02 21:25 veen: linked from above: http://www.breitbart.com/dumpkelloggs/ << "bigotry at your breakfast table" haw haw
ben_vulpes: yeah, that does sound useful
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://kukuruku.co/post/the-collapse-of-the-unix-philosophy
mircea_popescu: o look, i can read the stuff from the chan on websites a few months later now! well done team andreesseen! totally made a difference!
asciilifeform: the dung beetles, gotta roll dung
mircea_popescu: "This article was written hastily, and I don’t want to further improve it. You’re lucky I wrote it. Therefore, I may provide some facts without source links." << i lolled. and also lost interest.
mircea_popescu: !#s zuleika
a111: 0 results for "zuleika", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=zuleika
mircea_popescu: anyone familiar with the story of zuleika dobson ?
asciilifeform isn't
mircea_popescu: not entirely terrible early 1900s parody of early 2000s hollywood
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's about a girl who can't take seriously any online dweebs who attempt to immitate her style without comprehending the substance and under the guise of a very thin excuse omit to address their thanks plainly. or something like that.
asciilifeform: my stack overflowed parsing that
mircea_popescu: kinda the point.
asciilifeform: 'As we’ve already seen in the example with /etc/passwd, the widespread use of plain text can lead to performance problems. ' << and dynamically loaded crapolade, orc-glyphs-in-everything, dbus, et al -- don't, apparently ?!
asciilifeform barfs the thing back out
asciilifeform: ' It would be much easier if we used JSON or XML for system configs. Or maybe some binary format. Especially for those configs that are constantly read by different programs. As a result, they need a good read rate (it’s higher in binary formats).' << gold.
asciilifeform: somebody help d00d install winblowz, apparently he had problem..?
asciilifeform: 'We need LC_ALL here to be sure that the date will take exactly three words in the output of ls.' << this is exactly the plasma tv raft from mircea_popescu's article with the crazy woman
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-18#1524864 <<☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-18 22:32 asciilifeform: 'The situation is somewhat akin to a retarded girlfriend trying to flood your apartment, that not only opens all the faucets and stops all the drains, but also takes the "extremely clever" measure of puncturing the water pipes, so she can then preciously inform you that "turning off the faucets won't help" and you must work with her to somehow create a raft out of your widescreen TV so as to navigate the marshy terrain that used to b
mircea_popescu: hey that's a pretty good simile.
asciilifeform: 'linux suxx because you will be covered in shit, that we made sure to smear on every floor time and furniture inside it, it should be more like microshit'
asciilifeform: *floor tile
asciilifeform maxed dosimeter. bbl.