phf: amusingly enough genera's clx is missing some x code for rendering bitmaps. meanwhile clx got ported out, worked on by a dozen of different teams, gender pronounced and ~still~ that code is missing, with the same disclaimer
Framedragger: maybe another caching layer is still caching, hrgh.
Framedragger: right, yeah, but the (really) random seeks.. i hoped to tumble it a bit at least
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 00:02 asciilifeform: because motherfucking 'people in the know' whispering like little girls
a111: Logged on 2017-03-06 13:10 Framedragger: (just for posterity, other metrics say that consumer ssds seek average may be ~3ms.)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger well you pared it down to ~2 caches, not so bad.
Framedragger: ...yeah, i think that the proper way to do it then is to take entire disk, populate it with things to a high degree and (somehow) with enough spatial dispersion, and benchmark, and restart entire thing between benchmarks.
Framedragger: ~maybe up for it but *that*'d have to wait till later
phf: your approach to sourcing this info is by googling, while actually getting in touch with people who might know is derided as "whispering". while the content's been published and public since forever, those who follow along presumbly knew since then
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-05-12 14:42 asciilifeform: (either that or the 'snap4' emulator source code)
mircea_popescu: phf he has a strong case though. no blogs, no mirrors, jack shit. "oh we knew. github." cmon.
mircea_popescu: it's not a defensible sharing of the power in any conceivable desing.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 15:21 asciilifeform: and violates the principle of nothing-to-allcomers.
deedbot: L1: 3, L2: 16 by 8 connections.
phf: yes, but i can't speak for other "whisperers"
Framedragger: i don't think he meant himself, but rather other, external wots.
Framedragger: lol, what can i tell you, sad state of affairs
Framedragger: yeah but that's what i meant by same, gave closed copy the source version of which was available (and known to him, presumably?)
Framedragger: they must have really low self esteem to require this kind of labyrinthine way of pretending to themselves to be real important nao
phf: the timing of this rant is amusing, because i'm flying out to dks's tomorrow. which is why last time we talked about it i ~explicitly asked you not to rant about this in public~. if nobody cares about symbolics proper, then people certainly do care about the fickle opinions of older men, who are sitting on irreplaceable treasure troves of smbx technology.
☟︎ phf: is that a legitimate question, or rhetorics for log?
phf: you're making a lot of assumptions, about goals and strategies of others
phf: fwiw, i'm not buying "old iron", and you'll know why i'm going there if you dig up literally the last set of pms we exchanged.
mircea_popescu: the problem is one of indexing not properly of publishing.
phf: i think the implication is that "whisperers" are so poor (being dirty redditors) they can't even buy a cheap fpga
mircea_popescu: phf so far i'm just trying to probe this crater, i have nfi what's going on.
mircea_popescu: he does prima facie seem to have a point, just not altogether sure what it is.
mircea_popescu: but fwiw, i don't credit the "irreplaceable treasure" theory.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 00:42 phf: the timing of this rant is amusing, because i'm flying out to dks's tomorrow. which is why last time we talked about it i ~explicitly asked you not to rant about this in public~. if nobody cares about symbolics proper, then people certainly do care about the fickle opinions of older men, who are sitting on irreplaceable treasure troves of smbx technology.
mircea_popescu: sbmx is worth ~0 today, on its own merit through its own work.
mircea_popescu: it is ~the inept old men~ that MUST care about ~our~ opinions.
mircea_popescu: i can't bring myself to move my piss away from dks, or anyone in his generation's face.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: let them fucking drown, maggots below the stinkiest whore.
mircea_popescu: the time for thinking them worth > price of christian burial was, maybe, at the latest, 2007. certainly not 2017.
phf: well, we've established that whatever i'm doing in that space is avocation. so the "worth" is entirely subjective
mircea_popescu: dude... 10k. a 1% of a real estate deal gone south. who cares.
mircea_popescu: phf the worth is always an objective, public matter. that you like inept whore / bad painting / whatever in your own livingroom does not make it worth anything.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyone doing the rembrandt moon game has thousands of different ones, does not care.
mircea_popescu: ftr it's still not altogether clear to me what went on ; and bad indexing still parsimonious explanation anyway.
mircea_popescu: maybe they simply did not grok they had item you wanted, it happens.
mircea_popescu: that's the distinguishing feature of it - as many years as until you notice.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's the problem : your algo (talk to peaks) is provedly, and notoriously, bad for breaking out of bad indexing tarpit.
mircea_popescu: gotta maintain network IN BREADTH (lol ben_vulpes !) to fight that problem
mircea_popescu: you know exactly what i'm saying. peak talk is no solution to bad index.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 00:18 phf: your approach to sourcing this info is by googling, while actually getting in touch with people who might know is derided as "whispering". while the content's been published and public since forever, those who follow along presumbly knew since then
mircea_popescu: the solution to bad indexing is a lot of dirty nodes, not a few "l1" ones.
mircea_popescu: and this is a very important point, and cogent throughout, including re trb-i design
mircea_popescu: nor do i mean it as a belittlement. obviously train runs on tracks, car runs on road but lower efficiency ; 4wd needs not road even worse efficiency etc. you are what you are -- but just so, the problem is what it is.
mircea_popescu: i'm saying you can't rely on it always working! cache misses are a thing, local maxima capture is a thing, whadda ya want
phf: i don't know anyone who has direct line of communication to kalman, short of dks, but brad parker is notoriously spotty at communication and 4 emails is ~simply not enough~
mircea_popescu: "see that chick at the table two over ? no don't look! yeah! so she knows i'm trying to get laid, and doesn't want me to get laid!!11"
mircea_popescu: phf emails also basically suck. who even reads them. do they even arrive anymore ? etc.
mircea_popescu: tru story : i wrote to romanian minister of foreign affairs incensed romanian consul failed to answer my emails. turns out... clever spamfilter, woman was mortified.
mircea_popescu: hey, it never occured to me, or them, until it occured.
phf: asciilifeform comes on very strong with the whole "i know" shtick, so i simply assumed that he knows what he wants to know.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's such rank nonsense, the fuck would anyone care.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 02:12 asciilifeform: kindergartener knows
phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
☟︎ mircea_popescu: different apparently from merely the momentary rhetorical issue.
phf: he's welcome, in his own words, to "go, implement". having read that code, i'm unconvinced that it's the "buddha's front gate" to a working lispm fpga
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there.is.a.cost.to.kindergartner.knows.device.
mircea_popescu: not that there's anything wrong with it, as a device. it's funny, even. but if man becomes his devices man misses out on things which, upon examination, man did not want to miss.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-07 19:02 asciilifeform: all i got, for the most part, is what is in the wall-o-deadtree manuals, and what i gleaned from reversing 'snap4' binary in ida.
mircea_popescu: unlikely, in light of this conversation, but yes, in light of the bias load.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 23:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did describe earlier, having concluded a few yrs ago that it is cheaper, easier, moar pleasant, to cut appart 'snap4' emulator (i have a pc build here ~with debug symbols~, comes apart in ida nicely) than to suffer with nitric acid and electron microscope
mircea_popescu: any one line is also passible of having been skipped / partially parsed and then silently dumped / etc.
mircea_popescu: and yes, i understand how fucking petryfing and utterly enraging this is, "shit, wtf do these dorks sit on i need and they won't say"
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 17:37 phf: i'm not sure, but i remember you have to put a handful of magic incantations to live fix clx on genera to make it connect to crapple's x11
mircea_popescu: he might also not have a more useful clue than quoted.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 23:57 asciilifeform: this isn't the only 1 on the net, either, i found several, they bought lispms, one took hundreds of photos of himself 'hipstering' near it, then one final one where it (??!) burned down
mircea_popescu: the "set of people who bought lispm" have nfi what lispm even is, on average.
mircea_popescu: person > 50yo, their brain likely isn't connected. to anything.
phf: literally none of these people are directly in my wot, and my interactions with them are as frustrating as yours. but with patience you can extract useful things out of them. yours and mp's conclusion is that there's nothing of worth there, well then!
mircea_popescu: phf my conclusion is built out of a lot of disinterest, mind.
phf: i think there's a lot of general "couldn't care less"-ness going on all around. whisperers don't care about asciilifeform's plight
mircea_popescu: ie, they may have proven themselves to you, but they have not to me. as far as im concerned, stroutsup = dks = tim swanson = leah what's her ass = etcetera.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't think that's a wasted effort. i got in touch with zeptobars people again, and my current best option (since they said shipping to russia is maddness) is to travel moscows sometime in summer and hand deliver the chip. assuming that i have one, but i take it you're no longer interested since "snap4 source"
☟︎ phf: i'd rather not loose a chip in transit, and since avocation, i don't care about time frames.
mircea_popescu: they will lose random single digit % of mailings inexplicably impredictably and irrecoverably.
phf: i would very much like to start a clandestine operation called "the whisperers", but since it's not in the logs, someone else will have to do it
phf: our sole objective will be making all the asciilifeform's assumptions true
mircea_popescu: even now, you understand this alfie, EVEN NOW there's girls spreading for random dorks somewhere notwithstanding you're looking for a girl just like them. and they won't as much as whatsapp a notification to you!
mircea_popescu briefly imagines how a world like that would be, where he;'d get notifications of every vaguely eligible bachelorette on an hourly basis. good god what a terrible crapsack fit for sf.
mircea_popescu: suppose in the future that's how it works, dating consists of about 5bn notifications ~per capita~ of "hey, x is about to go out with $randomdude"
trinque: pretty sure that's how it works now
trinque: "such and so went to X and look here are pictures of them drinking bad booze in plastic cups"
mircea_popescu: alternatively, they a) didn't know (either item) ; b) didn't care ; c) didn't know they don't know ; d) didn't care they don't know and so folllowing.
trinque: getting old and having failed is a thing.
mircea_popescu: a large part of the problem being that in a "democracy" there's ~no incentive to behave in a less shitty manner.
mircea_popescu: hey, they're free people self determination etc rite ?
mircea_popescu: nobody ever kicks anyone out of a dinner for being vegetarian, why the hell would anyone worry what people think of him for not having done x thing de rigueur.
mircea_popescu: listen, you will find ~same wherever you drill, old democrats, "russian engineers" active pre 1990, etc.
mircea_popescu: consider the point!
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625177 << to this i could say, "the defensive play, of course, being to always link to the baseline when a field is discussed" to which his retort would be, of course, "yeah and he;ll just say a string with kindergarten in it".
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 01:29 phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
phf: asciilifeform: you've made a lot of unfounded assumptions. somehow everyone acts in bad faith unless they involve asciilifeform in their going ons?
mircea_popescu: if you -ev people doing base work, you -ev your own future.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 19:06 phf: (if nobody else steps up, i'm going to bring one up in a day or two)
mircea_popescu: why phrase it as this rather than plainly "i will" ? to place disincentive on others doing it ? (hey, if i do it he won't) rather than incentive (he's doing it, let me do it too) ?
mircea_popescu: none of the self-harming behaviours of mankind are examined, or deliberately chosen
trinque: and if the nemesis is there in the mind even in people who are quite functional yet, what happens to an old failed man?
phf: mircea_popescu: i noticed that here focusing on something is an incentive for others to also focus on it
mircea_popescu: phf entirely idle example, no more important than strand of hay, which is why chosen here, illustrates beautifully.
Framedragger: oh lord. *creation* of seven-levels-deep directories (in the format of "6d56/a6f4/f1d5/67a3/505c/a7d0/9c72/6fff/e75e/a482/e36b/6b5b/7421/f9cf/e36a/", with last 8th level being symlink) takes a long time, and is also space-wasteful on ext4. to 'store' 1k transactions it takes ~0.41s and takes up 59M of space. this without actual symlinks (should be fast but should check later). *removal* is ~0.45s
Framedragger: (would advise against deep folder structure assuming no concrete reason to prefer it. just-symlinks (+/-) seems better. but then not sure if to think much of fs anyway.)
Framedragger: (~60k to store 'transaction' (excluding symlink itself)!! this is the price of deeper fs trees)
Framedragger: (btw the 'creation' is not bottlenecked by python or w/e; straight syscalls and simple c, and the random hex generator is a small footprint)
Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.
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a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 00:16 asciilifeform: if some unknown d00d had not written to me last night, even now i might be doing it
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes there is an ancient observation (toqueville) that slavery is not unbearable to peoples in proportion to its intensity, but in proportion to the velocity of its reduction. he supports it by showing that the germans, more abject slaves in 1700 than any central asian people, found their situation tolerable ; whereas the french, significantly freer ~and becoming freer~ found the uninstantaneous speed of the change INTO
shinohai: I awake to the screeches of `PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET` this morning with coffee. Hail to the Trumpreich.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 12:10 mircea_popescu: dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 04:05 asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end.
mircea_popescu: contrary to what ANYONE may pretend, ext4 IS NOT A FS!!!! it's a ridiculous toy at best.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ie, the reason usgtard is all "oh, random is not really broken" when phuctor came out exactly reduces to "well, it's fucking broken, but you should see the filesystem!"
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for completeness, i should state that it may be "workable" (in the sense of slightly less horrible) to just keep a flat dir tree structure, one or two levels deep - if you don't ask fs to list files in dir and just want to access filenames you already know, it's ~okay-ish. but i think i agree that the whole fs idea needs to be dumped, in general
mircea_popescu: im not using this thing. how is it better than windows ?
Framedragger: hey, you wanted some fs test, i'm just reporting on levels of shittiness found
mircea_popescu: yeah i don't have a problem with you. still monumentally pissed off.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 01:11 mircea_popescu: i can't bring myself to move my piss away from dks, or anyone in his generation's face.
Framedragger: yeah i especially liked the amazing speed of directory deletion
mircea_popescu: NONE OF THEM DID ANYTHING USEFUL. AT ALL. BUNCH OF PRETENTIOUS POINTLESS USELESS IMBECILES NOT WORTH PISSING AWAY FROM!
mircea_popescu: "oh i had a job i went to work through traffic every morning"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger suppose you store the blocks whole. what is the seek time of one dozen 1mb files dispersed randomly in a 8 deep directory structure, defined as (time when all are in ram) - (time when call was made) ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: to be clear, the way this would work is, there'd still be symlinks at the bottom ends of the dir structure, pointing to blocks (which are stored in a single dir, say)?
Framedragger: also, as asciilifeform said, cache can really confuse the hell out of any metrics. e.g., disk cache. so i'd need to probably restart whole box to be sure (yes lol, but i think i should)
mircea_popescu: 1. actual blocks (1mb files) are stored in a directory structure, based on their hash say. this is 8 deep because hey, max filecount in a dir, we want to make a proper system.
mircea_popescu: 2. index to those blocks (say, eg, to find txn, or anything else) is stored in a SEPARATE dir structure, and at the bottom there's simlinks to the block files.
mircea_popescu: so your storage looks like /(blocks, txn, addies, whatever)/abcd/etc/(abcd.dat or abcd.symlink etc)
Framedragger: (you'd need to have a *lot* of blocks to have average num of files per second-to-deepest dir be >= 1; i dont think one needs 8 levels, but i see the point in trying this)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the point is that we don't want to make any more provedly breaking systems.
mircea_popescu: if the total number of blocks your machine can produce is 2**4096, then your design will also store 2**4096 blocks.
mircea_popescu: (and if this is untenable, THEN THE DESIGN GETS MODIFIED!!! no fucking "solutions" of shoving shit under carpet and letting mp discover it in 2017 whiole spending however many years eating food we didn't pay for and pretensions to "engineering" and "intellectual lifge" we don't deserve.)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger in any case i don't expect to optimize BEFORE DESIGNING holy shit. talk about early optimizations. this is the measuring stage. you optimize nothing.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 13:51 mircea_popescu: contrary to what ANYONE may pretend, ext4 IS NOT A FS!!!! it's a ridiculous toy at best.
mircea_popescu: phf well he's considering what he's considering, seeing how he's doing the measuring. i was kinda biasing towards ext2 in the previous discussions (which i guess nobody reads or something ?) , but hey, can't impede man's independent manhood!
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 17:41 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the most pressing matter to my eyes right now is getting ext2/ext4 benchmarked for our specified purpose.
phf: i believe alf even pointed out the obvious "journaling file systems are going to journal"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger no seriously, nothing wrong with it. now we have numbers. they're good to have.
mircea_popescu: there's an item in the specification of journaling that it must not work which i missed or something ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: so in your proposed-to-be-tested scheme, there are two separate eight-deep trees? may i ask, why do blocks need their own tree - after all, it's just an int. do you expect block number to overflow an unsigned 32 bit int? because you *really* don't need 8-deep structure for dispersing 2**32 nodes (again:
http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph1.png /
http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph2.png )
Framedragger: but if it's for 'defensive' benchmarking, sure. just pointing out.
Framedragger: yeah but i forgot how to bitcoin. i guess blockheight bad idea?
mircea_popescu: can definitely also store by shifted blockheight, 0000/0000 etc. it will still be a thing as large as the other one
Framedragger: yes that's what i meant. which, i dunno, maybe bad assumption of 'only one chain', or sth.
mircea_popescu: (pretending for a second the design is sane, which it isn't -- who the fuck counts by int a set of hashed items omfg)
Framedragger: kk. so, ok. only thing is i'm swamped in march, so will have to wait. (if anyone wants c code i wrote so far, ping me)
☟︎ mircea_popescu: (for shits and giggles, anyone looked at what happens once blockcount overflows ?)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger dun worry about it. lordship coming up for discussion soon anyway, and ima propose you (an' some other fellows), so.
phf: i think the deep value in an exercise like "replace db with a filesystem" is the reduction of moving parts. ext2 is a straightforward inode based tree, with a separate relocation phase, etc. journaling adds the whole overhead (for it's primarily cognitive) of secondary redundancy that you now have to factor into all your considerations
mircea_popescu: what i want to hear is, (preferably proof) as to why journaling filesystem can't store files in directories!
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 14:33 Framedragger: kk. so, ok. only thing is i'm swamped in march, so will have to wait. (if anyone wants c code i wrote so far, ping me)
mircea_popescu: you ever go to school ? what usually happens there's a chick there that's really good pre-puberty. then she starts bleeding, and she skips some classes / homeworks / attentionpaying. and then... she can never catch back up again. because interlocking.
☟︎ Framedragger: problem is multiple homework/class/job-domains, and the context-switching :) but yeah
mircea_popescu: (and if the foregoing didn't happen where you went to school... you didn't.)
deedbot: grubles voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2014-10-31 00:21 asciilifeform: as in, 'bitcoinfs.'
mircea_popescu: this is a misrepresentation : the turd is in there already.
mircea_popescu: so there's no "replacing". excising part of the tumour.
mircea_popescu: currently the dependency is bdb + ext? ; if it becomes ext? it is less not same.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 16:57 asciilifeform: btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :
mircea_popescu: it's not "as if it never happened". it ACTUALLY DID NOT HAPPEN.
mircea_popescu: well so then. it never happened because you never published. dun dun dun.
mircea_popescu: i'm not even proposing we abuse ext, i just wish to know if it could work. so far, unencouraging.
mircea_popescu: it's probably the cause for the whole spend thing, as a sort of unexamined insurance.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the correct solution has to go along the lines of "nope. only one block."
mircea_popescu: the insanity of putting such a thing there, as opposed to you know, THE FUCKING WALLET
mircea_popescu: (note that at no point the preservation of satoshi's indexing scheme was contemplated)
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 16:05 asciilifeform: and you'll be creating 2-3000 per block
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 03:53 Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.
mircea_popescu: it wouldn't surprise me if a corner case were discovered where THIS permits doublepsend
Framedragger: *59M* for 1000 'transactions', *before* symlinks are even saved. just the folders (7-level-deep folders.)
mircea_popescu: but understand it's not the case "this - works, replacement might not"
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: which means that i don't see how it could work even given mystery-amazing fs performance (...), *space-wise*.
mircea_popescu: i've not seen any. would be more interesting to test for the hole manually by fuzzing on testnet
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so basically each index is an extra terrabytwe
Framedragger: well. if we do linear extrapolation, bout 14400 terabytes for transaction index given 250mil transactions....
Framedragger: 59M for 1000tx. *before* symlinks are stored. (granted, they'll be small)
Framedragger: you're right, the growth *won't* be linear. but...
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: you sure you want benchmarks? /me thinks it's a lost cause
Framedragger: but good to have concrete reproducible data to back it up, sure.
diana_coman: ahahaha mircea_popescu; it sounds... familiar already
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the mystery of the black box that manages to require 59kb to store 8 x 4byte directories, ie a whooping 99.99% wastage....
Framedragger: i'm sure it's justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works
mircea_popescu: (denouement : eulora work is pretty much EXACTLY the above two things.)
mircea_popescu: no i meant the epic "justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works"
diana_coman: I took that to be very-much-needed-sarcasm ; Framedragger knows best whether it was still innocent hope instead
Framedragger: yeah the sarcasm is probably not black enough tbh
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, trilema serves the 350kb zuleika story in ~500ms. FILESYSTEM IS ABOUT AS SLOW!
mircea_popescu: no wonder "cloud computing" and all the rest of the ineptorade.
mircea_popescu: so "consumer fs is great if you don't use it". hey, check it out, exactly like the us army, or for that matter cia, apparently.
mircea_popescu: these great papier mache roofs that work fine as roofs until it finally rains, heh.
mircea_popescu: no wonder indian diaspora is so fucking happy. gypsy fucking culture through and tyhrough.
phf: indian philosophy seems to be "if everything's fucked, just eat, fuck and do your daily puja"
phf: it does, hence the daily puja part
phf: "you want meaning in your life? lol. here's 50 books of meaningless rituals. that you have to perform daily. the smarter you are the more rituals you get. knock yourself out."
☟︎ ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yes, i move extremely slowly.
mircea_popescu: phf aha. quite spurious failed civilisation(s), that continent
Framedragger: apparently offloads export/computation to neo4j, a hipsta graph db
mircea_popescu: problem with these hipster solutions is they're only good for about half a year.
mircea_popescu: "oh, nobody uses X anymore". dude... if i wanted to accessorize i'd just read cosmo.
trinque: that's why they love docker; automated jars of shit
Framedragger: ah trinque up'd himself just to remind me that docker is shit lol
trinque: !~step1 on the road to recovery!
jhvh1: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
jhvh1: 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Framedragger: currently stealing booze from that inventory. some good old shit in there i tell you
ben_vulpes happy to chime in on docker shit parade
Framedragger: i have some good memories from using bsd jails some years ago. the core concept of isolation (fs, process, network, etc) is not bad. providing integrated interface not a bad thing, either. problem with docker is it doesn't do it in a consistent way, is too bloated, is ~proprietary +/-, and does the abstraction in a way that invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless.
ben_vulpes: "the hft guy" wrote what i consider the canonical beating, mirrors my experience quite exactly
Framedragger: ah i may have read it, did it mention DBs, too, as in "why the fuck would you put db in there"
ben_vulpes: let us not mention the ever-shifting api, the utter failure of to do MOTHERFUCKING GARBAGE COLLECTION, the miserable and useless state in which it leaves disks
Framedragger: (i'll just mention that for persistent data, you are supposed to use bind mounts, not internal docker storage.)
ben_vulpes: the endless pile of "i would like to perform what i consider a basic operation of type X" "here have a shell script of awk and sed"
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: "if you care about your data integrity, our tool is not for you"
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fundamental problem with "human rights" / "our democracy" ie humanism -- if mothers empower sons to escape fatherly punishment, the incentive on the 2nd sons is to be mothers rather than fathers.
mircea_popescu: yeah, basic element of the pile of "lalalacanthear" aka "left"
mircea_popescu: in unrelated lulz, turkish-dutch relations at historic low over dutch deciding they have the power to forbid turkish foreign minister visit the turkish consulate in holland. because hey, if it works on random pick-up artist dork, why not on turkish foreign minister.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the two are economically about the same size, but the dutch army would count as a half regiment of the turkish.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i never can remember which of the ex-relevant colonial powers are not in which instruments. eu except britain, nato aparently w/o sweden, but with norway, there's something else without norway and so on
mircea_popescu: you know it's going to shit when the cheese starts widening in this manner.
Framedragger just had some cold borscht. << amazing and recommend for those who haven't tried
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 19:33 asciilifeform: Framedragger: you will notice that tools which 'invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless' proliferate, whereas ones that penalize shaved chimps for being the worthless biowaste that they are, tend to disappear and then have to be excavated from 1km of dirt, or evaporate entirely
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 19:34 ben_vulpes: Framedragger: "if you care about your data integrity, our tool is not for you"
ben_vulpes: you say this as though you think i'm unaware
ben_vulpes: but that's not all! say one wants to get into a running container where something went wrong to inspect it's state
ben_vulpes: "oh, no, why would you ever want to do that? aren't you a professional opsbro? with centralized logging? containers are ephemeral, you low-dough derp! they crash and go away!"
ben_vulpes: no bitch, you will give me that process that is hosed. i want to diddle it further.
ben_vulpes: silicon-valley developer finger trap. can't go away soon enough.
ben_vulpes: worse than mongo in that it contaminates /everything/.
ben_vulpes: "great for development environments" no, no it is not.
mircea_popescu: it's great for otherwise idle dorks to dick about with.
Framedragger: i expect folks regard the "crash and go away" as a feature - just restart it bro, etc.
Framedragger: any suggestions for isolation from folks here? just cgroups/chroot?
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 17:20 phf: "you want meaning in your life? lol. here's 50 books of meaningless rituals. that you have to perform daily. the smarter you are the more rituals you get. knock yourself out."
mircea_popescu: Framedragger honestly i know of no better than "get a box"
ben_vulpes: grow a budget, get some servers, problem?
mircea_popescu: the whole point of the "we'll solve problems with plows dragged by 1024 chickens" is that you then DO NOT tyurn aroundand pretend each chicken is an individual bipedal miniox.
trinque: Framedragger: the fuck is "isolation" ?
ben_vulpes: trinque: shibboleth of ruby where nothing gets installed cleanly
ben_vulpes: this is seen as an inevitability and not a cancer somehow
Framedragger: *sigh* i'll grant it that concepts are leaky and can't apply hammer to all problems etc etc; but you can't pretend that the core concept of isolation is not useful. just isolating fs, process, and network is already useful.
trinque: you may not use the term "isolation" without defining it
ben_vulpes: and then i waste a year and untold piles of shitbucks on docker
mircea_popescu: i am saying the core concept of isolation is not useful. what now.
trinque: yeah but he was supposed to say it!
Framedragger: a process by which one restricts the system-provided resources that a particular entity (just "process", for now, say) is exposed to; the effect of which is that the entity functions as if in a stand-alone system dedicated to its purpose
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 19:57 Framedragger: any suggestions for isolation from folks here? just cgroups/chroot?
mircea_popescu: your fucking x windows read the input of all other windows dude. wtf.
trinque: Framedragger: and what of the myriad privilege escalations that have happened right through the cocker daemon
mircea_popescu: trinque "socialism is not a bad concept just wasn't correctly implemented."
trinque: "no this thing somebody else built defines me and I have the tshirt"
mircea_popescu: "i did not say this before any implementation failed though -- it was fine while it wasn't obviously failing"
Framedragger: "used docker" therefor "defined by tshirt" q.e.d.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger more like "used docker, liked it, wants to dockerize other things" therefore defined by tshirt.
Framedragger: that said, docker's 'main aim' isn't even isolation for the sake of security, so my weak point is even weaker.
trinque: and it's "main aim" -> NOBODY CANCELED BASH
Framedragger: but rather more to do with deployment, reproducability, ops, etc
mircea_popescu: listen, your position is horrible because you said "cant say x" and then x was immediately said and ... what now ?
trinque: twenty year old kid says in 201x "oh I will solve the problem of system state management on unix"
mircea_popescu: well ? you said that without ANYTHING to back it up ? that MAKES YOU exactly defined by tshirt
mircea_popescu: "can't say our democracy is a waste of everyone's time". ooops...
Framedragger: i only see folks denying the concept of isolation, i maintain that it's not altogether a useless concept. disagreement in premises
mircea_popescu: Framedragger actually your statement was "if you affirm X i will immediately prove you wrong".
Framedragger: (re. x windows, obviously one can have different ways and capabilities per particular system/process, etc)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the xwindow thing was a simple example of the lowest fucking level of this. what isolation. it never yet happened.
trinque: Framedragger: no, I said it's not a fucking thing on the same machine!
trinque: I told you to define it and you sulked
Framedragger: well i did, but you disagreed with the definition
mircea_popescu: isolation is the metaphysical concept of running software independently on a machine which shares bus access among undefined peripherals and has no way to isolate cpu instruction runs.
Framedragger: that said, fuck *again* i expose myself to arguing for a point i do not heartily believe in. need to reassess my shitty approach.
mircea_popescu: until you have net interface that somehow (how the fuck ?!) doesn't get to read/write to memory, your isolation is soup served in a calender.
mircea_popescu: it may feed you, but it will sure as fuck wet your pants.
trinque: yeah but calendar is hilarious too
ben_vulpes: sure but it's been going on like this for what three years how
ben_vulpes: has the republic dispelled with the illusion of the multi-user unix machine yet?
mircea_popescu: historical unix multiuser machine was purely political construct. like i could let ben_vulpes live in my vacation home, and it's "multi user" now.
trinque: really it's a reaction to poverty, "lala no I really can't hear my neighbor taking a shit"
ben_vulpes: kinda surprised to not see a gf lending metaphor from mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: "yes i let you use her but she's still mine no matter what show you two got up to in the bedroom"
trinque: hah there's something there too
trinque: "nothing can have permanent consequence, mother loves me"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform complicated, consider most of angloworld used wallpaper + wainscotting up until the us took over the civilisation.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes otherwise it'd be a little lulzy, what, dude stuffs girl in van, rapes her, it's now his through the magic of fuckjuice ?
mircea_popescu: (though i suspect some segments of interwebs actually think it works thus)
ben_vulpes: my popesculator appears to function just fine
ben_vulpes: yeah the thing approximately works as an uptime monitor for impoverished ustards running 20 side projects on a single aws t1.micro
ben_vulpes: bezosnet is a far more capable docker than docker ever will be.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: well computers don't work per sane definitions of working
ben_vulpes: yank cord, demonstrate deterministic failure plx
ben_vulpes: oh don't even get me started on the ways in which the laptops don't behave deterministically
ben_vulpes: i have seen the most amazing kaleidescopic fireworks shows upon opening the machine
trinque: ben_vulpes: recall my lenovo's RF interference lulz?
trinque: proximity to cell phone causes some video card problem that turns off the display, have to switch VTs to get it back
ben_vulpes was too kind to call trinque during business hours, lols not worth angrytrinque
ben_vulpes: was guaranteed way to get boy out of house though "hey i'm here" *slamming around*
trinque: can reproduce it every time
trinque: within a few inches of the left side of the bottom case
trinque: you're not speaking to people who have not done this ~for long periods of their adult life~
trinque: why teh fuck are you still trying to redeem it
trinque: understand the only thing it exists is so some faggot at a web startup can make his makework job even more complicated so he can hide the fact (mostly from himself) ~that he produces nothing, and is nothing~
Framedragger: trinque: not trying to redeem it any longer, at all, simmer down (but you were right.)
Framedragger: (anyway, i never would have recommended to use it in critical production. but looks like it's shit for personal local machine projects, too)
ben_vulpes: critical production as distinct from toy production?
jurov: glad I've never used docker. apparently they succeeded to reimplement oracle-corp-bezzle without backward compat, wd!
ben_vulpes: jurov: you have no idea what you're missing
jurov: yes hear, they insulated the app from pebkac well
ben_vulpes: that's what they sell on, but it turns out that the insulation is measured in briefcases of hundies
Framedragger: @all thanks to this chat i'll now make some urgent recommendations to startup i'm involved with. maybe it's not even gonna be fucked in the ass if moves decisively away. a bit ashamed i had $opinion on $thing-not-researched in the first place.
☟︎ ben_vulpes: heh now i'm imagining a research report which is just a link to log line
ben_vulpes: "can you give us a tldr, kiddo?" "NO TLDRS ARE FOR FAGGOTS SIX MONTHS STARTS YESTERDAY"
Framedragger: "if you like report, pay bitcoin to this foundation address here -> " hey maybe one day it'll even happen
jurov: Framedragger: experimenting really helps. i tried saltstack lightly, and the communication between master and minions was incredibly unreliable
jurov: made my opinion about devops
a111: Logged on 2016-05-15 15:56 mod6: what i also want to build is a CI thingy for trb
trinque: I dunno who canceled bash and ssh
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: dude start by writing some tests mebbe
Framedragger: (even hft guy doesn't have anything bad to say about ansible)
Framedragger: snarky trinque uses ssh and bash for 100 machine setups, too
Framedragger: i guess retort it "call me when you have 100 machines to adminster, kid"
trinque: that's exactly what I do for 350
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: 'tisn't as though hftbro is exhaustive banger-on of every dumb thing, just the ones he's faced with
jurov: don't forget the part about proper management of secrets on the master and general resilience of master against attacks from clients/minions
ben_vulpes: time would be better spent curating a tumblr full of naked girls and american muscle
jurov: it is always incredible hairball of code, impossible to audit anyhow
ben_vulpes: time-cost of audit impossible to estimate at least, and if so and security is a concern, why bother.
ben_vulpes: "hey boss, this looks like something written to suck devs into paying a consulting company to fix bugs in their own software, shall we introduce it as a dependency in our stack?"
jurov: "let's buy oracle, they are solid"
ben_vulpes: once the category of sv finger-trap is introduced, every option must demonstrate that it is /not that/.
ben_vulpes: jurov: i suppose that i'm pretty lucky to have never worked under anyone who thought oracle worth including in the matrix
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 18:31 asciilifeform: 'when choosing astrologer, hire the cheapest'
phf: when you're an astrologer, choose the client that pays the most? hmm, pissed opportunity there
a111: Logged on 2017-01-24 00:58 trinque: gonna DNS at all, might as well do it at the most-fed ministry
trinque: as I understand it PostgreSQL is more or less "closest thing to oracle without having sold first-born per core"
phf: that's another reason, why i don't for example, "hack my python with vim like a real hacker". give me the filthiest, most feature rich IDE, where i can just push spacebar to get half of my scaffolding, or whatever kids these days
☟︎ ben_vulpes: last few times i cracked a pyject, elpy and python-mode and friends proved...resistant to providing utility
scriba: Logged on 2017-03-11: [21:20:45] <Framedragger> snarky trinque uses ssh and bash for 100 machine setups, too
mircea_popescu: in other news : if your horse is undisciplined it's not the harness that needs improving. it's the horse.
Framedragger: #trilema is mircea_popescu's constant disappointment, then
phf: you've been reading logs too long, if
phf: yeah, i know, i broke a deploy
Framedragger: asciilifeform: where thing builds software and runs it tests every time a change is made. i assume you know his and are therefore asking rhetorically tho
scriba: Logged on 2017-03-11: [21:19:12] <ben_vulpes> bashops uber alles
jurov: asciilifeform: "continuous integrastion" - running tests on every commit
phf: btcbase is back, with some new experimental features..
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ci as such is not even a bad idea. compile and run pile of tests frequently, an expansion of "save whenever you stop typing"
Framedragger: i thought mouseovers were already there? if you mean timestamps over nicks
Framedragger: (obviously you need to have written those tests first...)
mircea_popescu: you can in principle even have emacs-style "pile of all purpose tests" with refinements etc
mircea_popescu: but from a management perspective, it makes you write < 1k lines code 3x as slow and > 10k lines code 3x as fast.
phf: ok, so experimental features on btcbase is that in memory presser now works. each patch has a "tree" link, that shows you a list of files (ones that are explicitly touched by the patch are marked as "modified"), and can look at each individual file
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform rat droppings are never found in singlets or how'd that go.
mircea_popescu: people who magicnumber magicnumber, it's just how they go.
phf: there's also a search function that lets you search through patchset, and it shows ~first appearance~ of particular string with corresponding file/vpatch
mircea_popescu: in principle it should not be possible to collide a tx.
phf: (searching through a particular press doesn't work yet)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the consequences would likely be dire, ie, irrecoverable/invisible variant blockchain
mircea_popescu: i don't think at the time he did this he had a very clear idea of the mempool / blockchain tx disjunction.
mircea_popescu: which explains a lot of things includingthe miner/node bug
mircea_popescu: block/candidateblock. cb should be identified by hash ; block should be identified by height.
mircea_popescu: the largest problem being that as difficulty increases, it becomes more and more feasible to simply seek a hash, in comparative terms. considering the disproportion of effect (one gives you a 1/2/2/2/2/2 of 50 btc, the other fucks up the toy entirely) it's a virtual certainty that eventually it will be economically reasonable to divert resources from mining to this hash colliding.
mircea_popescu: this is a fundamental and inescapable problem of usg-style hash functions. stuff like mpfhf mitigate THAT problem, but at a humongous cost.
mircea_popescu: yeah, but that fixes nothing. as long as you use hashing, you have collisions.
mircea_popescu: that'd certainly be the right way to do it. it's not "must start with 5 0s, it's "must start with 5 bytes equal to prev block's"
mircea_popescu: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004 block is valid now, too.
mircea_popescu: because block 500 with hash x can't be followed by block 501 with hash x equal to itself because that block 501 would be trying to spend outputs that are already spent.
phf: i believe it's not explicitly bound (i combed for limits while writing lisp btc and found none for any of the struct combinations)
phf: everything's limited by how much you can stuff into a block
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in theory they shouldn't be capped outside of the block size.
mircea_popescu: anyway, proper adatron -> trb-i -> fixed 2/2 txn model.
phf: possibly proper adatron solution would be to allocate a block and use it as operational space too
mircea_popescu: > 10kb tx are rare, but not inexistent. and then there's periodic massive ones.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i measure it continuously, this is just distilled impression over years
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform take for instance famous davout txn paying out bitbet.
mircea_popescu: bb41a757f405890fb0f5856228e23b715702d714d59bf2b1feb70d8b2b4e3e08
mircea_popescu: well, they were unspent before. fucking up the prb dried shit echafaudage
mircea_popescu: anyway, point being, most txn are small but long tail exists.
mircea_popescu: dumbest fucking idea. "oh, instruction field in your money".