log
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shinohai: Bonus points if she shines your shoes AND your knob at the same time.
trinque: asciilifeform: samsung "850 evo"
trinque bbl, gonna have drinks on a patio
trinque: cheers!
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BBD6C5951CEB6C46FD2CA543C69751DC4E02B2EB0E9E3A384FE06E93BCB69F8A << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1461...4277 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '152.249.133.58 (ssh-rsa key from 152.249.133.58 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (152-249-133-58.user.vivozap.com.br. BR)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BBD6C5951CEB6C46FD2CA543C69751DC4E02B2EB0E9E3A384FE06E93BCB69F8A << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1454...1433 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '152.249.133.58 (ssh-rsa key from 152.249.133.58 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (152-249-133-58.user.vivozap.com.br. BR)
ben_vulpes: lol i just told $girl that she was lazy, she retorted that she "is efficient, and it's a feature"
ben_vulpes: any objections to a vpatch doing away with the truncation of hashes in the trb log?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: that was long ago on my conveyor, and direly needs doing
asciilifeform: tx and block hashes both
ben_vulpes: mk
ben_vulpes: i have the block hash untruncated in the one place i wanted it recently, have not yet ploughed through the rest of them.
ben_vulpes: "recently", months ago.
asciilifeform: in other historic lulz, https://archive.is/cXS43
asciilifeform: >> 'On May 13, 1985, at approximately 5:28 p.m., two, one-pound bombs were dropped onto a house at 6221 Osage Avenue. The bombs were dropped from about 60 feet above the house by a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter. It was recorded, that the 500+ police officers at the scene, fired approximately 10,000 rounds of ammunition in the direction of the house in 90 minutes...'
shinohai: ♫ "In West Philadelphia, bombed and razed ...." ♪ ♫
ben_vulpes: shinohai: lel
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/702E5F468CDF045A6FBBA8349FED8F4F932B48041884E4BFF4CC5C53375258BE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1365...8207 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '187.8.236.178 (ssh-rsa key from 187.8.236.178 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (187-8-236-178.customer.tdatabrasil.net.br. BR SP)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/702E5F468CDF045A6FBBA8349FED8F4F932B48041884E4BFF4CC5C53375258BE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1779...6193 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '187.8.236.178 (ssh-rsa key from 187.8.236.178 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (187-8-236-178.customer.tdatabrasil.net.br. BR SP)
asciilifeform: in yet-other noose, guess who appears to read the l0gz: https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/technologies-which-did-not-live-up-to-the-hype
asciilifeform: 'QC deserves the right to a fair and speedy trial. It’s been 32 years.'
ben_vulpes: he's wrong about gas turbines too
ben_vulpes: just had to wait for people to realize y'hook 'em up to batteries and not the tranny directly of course.
asciilifeform: lol what battery
asciilifeform: the lipo thing you gotta buy again every 3y or so ?
ben_vulpes: lead acid'll do just fine, it's not a store, just a load balancer over time.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655439 << i have a bunch of these here, they're mighty spiffy☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 00:28 trinque: asciilifeform: samsung "850 evo"
ben_vulpes: double-reads-the-logs with the stolen "fucking love science" slams
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: keep a ups with lead acids? ever try not changing them for 3+y ?
asciilifeform: secondary batteries are shite, 0 exceptions discovered to date, sadly
ben_vulpes: far cheaper than lipos, no?
asciilifeform: nope, surprisingly, per A-h
asciilifeform: cn cornered lead market.
ben_vulpes: fe-ni?
asciilifeform: and TcO is astronomical
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: laughable W-hr/kg
ben_vulpes: my point is don't use the battery as anything other than a temporal load leveler, and bam you have yourself effectively a clutch.
asciilifeform: there are no acceptable batteries !!
ben_vulpes: yes, you replace the clutch plate it is a wear part.
ben_vulpes: dude it's not a store, listen to me.
ben_vulpes: the gasoline is your store, you burn it and use the battery to supply temporary current while the turbine goes from off to optimal regime.
asciilifeform: if you think it doesn't wear when you shallow cycle, think again.
ben_vulpes: clutch also wears.
asciilifeform: clutch doesn't cost 40k.
ben_vulpes: what, fe-ni does?
asciilifeform: price some time what one with 500mile range would cost.
ben_vulpes: why on earth would you need the 500-miler.
asciilifeform: ( and no, 'tesla' aficionado does not get to redefine what an auto ~is~ )
ben_vulpes: are you reading what i write or just repeating from your queue of stored battery slights?
ben_vulpes: battery is /temporal load leveler/ for /onboard turbine that burns gasoline/
ben_vulpes: entirely reasonable power train.
asciilifeform: 5fig maintenance every 3-4yrs is 'reasonable' !???
ben_vulpes: to be clear, 5 figs for the 500 mi battery, correct?
asciilifeform: for, last i knew, 'tesla' battery
asciilifeform: and 2x that if usg weren't subsidizing
ben_vulpes: why would you need a battery with that kind of capacity IF YOU ARE DOING ONBOARD ELECTRICAL GENERATION?
asciilifeform: 'prius' , let's take, then
asciilifeform: .. 7k ?
ben_vulpes: poor example; must be compact, lightweight.
asciilifeform: i suffer these in lappy, and it is infuriating, 20-40% capacity loss/yr. why the everliving fuck would i volunteer to suffer this in an auto.
asciilifeform: and for 2x the cost of petrol, even.
ben_vulpes: no, you don't get to avoid the fe-ni battery proposal.
asciilifeform: or flywheel !
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's father designed, iirc a city bus on old home planet, with flywheel accumulator
ben_vulpes: shall i go get my sophistry canister?
asciilifeform: no, it worked.
ben_vulpes: also the prius does not have a fully-electric transmission.
asciilifeform: ( was trolleybus. flywheel allowed it to go brief stint out if wire range )
ben_vulpes: worst of all worlds.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: incidentally, why not
ben_vulpes: because they use the motor to power the transmission and not the battery.
asciilifeform: i rode in a 'prius' taxi not long ago, and was astonished to discover this
asciilifeform: but WHy
ben_vulpes: because legacy drivetrain.
ben_vulpes: dude that you are engaging on the topic and are recently surprised at the state of the art is pretty funny.
ben_vulpes: prius has a dual-input transmission.
asciilifeform: yes but why!!
asciilifeform: i dungetit
ben_vulpes: because honda car division makes ic engines and ic trannies
ben_vulpes: toyota?
asciilifeform: aaah junkyardwars ol
asciilifeform: ok
ben_vulpes: anyways, "volt" does this correctly.
ben_vulpes: and i await the drivetrain's arrival in trucks eagerly.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: phunphakt : heavy mining trucks in su were 100% diesel-electric
asciilifeform: a la prius or ww2 sub.
ben_vulpes: dual-input or electric to the shaft?
asciilifeform: because a house-sized mechanical transmission is idiocy
ben_vulpes: prius is not electric to the shaft, as we just discussed. it has electrical supplement to the shaft.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: motor per wheel
asciilifeform: aah
ben_vulpes: yeah, not how prius works.
asciilifeform: sub then
ben_vulpes: yes, sane design.
ben_vulpes: prius is plastic tech designed to appease american consumer, nyooz at whenever.
ben_vulpes: great mileage, zero accel.
ben_vulpes: zero torque, etc.
ben_vulpes: perfect self flagelletory greentech.
asciilifeform: btw ben_vulpes -- know where i can get a ni-fe cell ?
asciilifeform: or whichever size
ben_vulpes: sadly, no.
asciilifeform: *of
ben_vulpes: but the chemistry is of kindergarten grade. go, buy railcars of ni, fe, assemble.
asciilifeform: lolyes
asciilifeform: why not pebble reactor.
asciilifeform: if assembling.
ben_vulpes fumbles for the spare canister
asciilifeform: this being said, if ben_vulpes builds with own hands an electric auto with ni-fe cells, made by own hand, i will clap!
ben_vulpes: on an eeeentiiiiirely different topic, it took months but i recently got the part of my output indexer that excises spent outputs from the index map to compile, which i believe brings the indexer part of this foray to completion. i invite any who'd like to read and comment to download the (unsigned!) vpatch from here cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/export_outputs.vpatch
asciilifeform: one time i went to an exhibit of electric vehicles, there were not only modern machines but lovingly handcrafted (from ordinary chassis) items, from as early as '80s, still working
ben_vulpes: now i have to decide how to test it, for the odds are that it does not work as-written. but i do invite commentary on the design!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: describe briefly what this does plox
ben_vulpes: this patch adds an rpc command that eats as input one address, and walks the blockchain for outputs that spend to the address.
asciilifeform: doesn't importprivkey do this ?
ben_vulpes: at the end of the walk, it writes the unspent outputs to a file in a format amenable to normal unix tool examination.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what use has anyone for the wallet?
asciilifeform: aaah that's what it was
asciilifeform: neato ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: once this patch works (which it almost certainly does not, as i have only finished drafting it), it will serialize unspent outputs to disk in a simple format for...later use.
ben_vulpes: ty asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: the patch adds a struct to use during the indexing, and a new overload of IsMine that uses the script solver to find outputs relevant to the given address.
asciilifeform: i'ma read this when i wake up
ben_vulpes: once it works for a single address, it will be trivial to index multiple at once.
ben_vulpes: please do!
ben_vulpes: i am considering testing this in conjunction with a solipsistic miner, but may test it against the extant blockchain instead. input on this also welcome
asciilifeform: if it works on arbitrary addrs, seems like it'd be wuite asy to test
asciilifeform: *quite easy
ben_vulpes: aye
ben_vulpes: the time it takes a fully-synced node to shutdown and reboot is painful, though.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: kill , then when db syncs ( grep tail of log ) kill -9
asciilifeform: < 1s
asciilifeform: i haven't waited for a node to shut down in years
asciilifeform: now warmup, yes, slow.
ben_vulpes: aha, this.
asciilifeform: and will get slooooooower
asciilifeform: hence why all of asciilifeform's trb work from month or so ago and forever more, is about losing the cpp hairball.
ben_vulpes: this nqb is an entirely new client, is it not?
asciilifeform: it is.
asciilifeform: idea , however, is that it will run blox past trad trb ( netless , mempoolless trb ) as 'final court'
ben_vulpes: it may take some time, especially at my glacial pace, but i think slicing the wallet from the reference implementation (which i don't think is going anywhere?) a worthwhile endeavour.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yours, and others', works, are quite worthwhile !
asciilifeform: reference trb gotta keep working, uninterrupted,
asciilifeform: per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-14#1626921 thread..☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-14 15:11 asciilifeform: and 'dead bitcoin', esp. if it dies on enemy's terms, would imho be a technogenic catastrophe, quite comparable to, e.g., chernobyl. ( not for mircea_popescu 'i'm rich anyway, fuck everyone' , and not for other folx, who might not even have any; but for the concept of 'gold sans the guard labour')
ben_vulpes: and in "today's nobel, tomorrow's homework", eventually bitcoin clients will be the republic's software engineering masterwork project.
asciilifeform: tbh, i doubt it
asciilifeform: a watertight bignumatron, for instance, is , turns out, quite tricky
asciilifeform: even being 1960s tech
ben_vulpes: did say, 'masterwork'.
ben_vulpes: not 'journeman'.
ben_vulpes: journeyman*
ben_vulpes: anyways, /me off
asciilifeform: goodnight ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: nn asciilifeform
ben_vulpes will be doting on the mothers in his life on the morrow
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/05/cost-of-running-shitware-continues-bull-run-to-the-moon/ << Qntra - Cost Of Running Shitware Continues Bull Run To The Moon
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655445 << on the contrary.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 03:54 ben_vulpes: any objections to a vpatch doing away with the truncation of hashes in the trb log?
mircea_popescu: jesus 1985 philadelphia is ugly.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655457 << doing a mediocre job of it, too. stem cell research actually yielded various practical results. mostly obscure bone marrow diseases, but hey, it's only obscure until you get it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 04:36 asciilifeform: in yet-other noose, guess who appears to read the l0gz: https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2017/05/14/technologies-which-did-not-live-up-to-the-hype
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655460 << most hybrids have some kind of turbine under the hood, even if masquerading as a more traditional something or other.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 04:40 ben_vulpes: just had to wait for people to realize y'hook 'em up to batteries and not the tranny directly of course.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655475 << he has a point though, every redesign cycle the momentum-based store (like they use in eg F1 cars) comes back to the drawing board. turns out having a small heavy well spinning real fast is not really much worse than trying to store energy in batteries.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 04:46 ben_vulpes: my point is don't use the battery as anything other than a temporal load leveler, and bam you have yourself effectively a clutch.
mircea_popescu: wheel*
mircea_popescu: oh i see flywheel is mentioned downstream anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655525 << electric to the shaft.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 04:57 ben_vulpes: dual-input or electric to the shaft?
mircea_popescu: ro train engines were that way for a long time too, owing to the peculiar terrain.
Framedragger: HN spit out https://github.com/mjg59/mei-amt-check , dunno if any good, maybe need to check later. to be clear, AMT won't be provisioned "by default", and it being provisioned is the worser thang.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655600 << not on this here planet, wat☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 09:10 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655460 << most hybrids have some kind of turbine under the hood, even if masquerading as a more traditional something or other.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655608 << ALL trains made after 1950 or so...☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 09:18 mircea_popescu: ro train engines were that way for a long time too, owing to the peculiar terrain.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655609 << 'Requires that the mei_me driver (part of the upstream kernel) be loaded.'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 12:19 Framedragger: HN spit out https://github.com/mjg59/mei-amt-check , dunno if any good, maybe need to check later. to be clear, AMT won't be provisioned "by default", and it being provisioned is the worser thang.
Framedragger: loaded by default in stock ubuntu, say
asciilifeform: now why would the module be loaded on a box without it
asciilifeform: srsly??!
Framedragger: (yesyes ubuntu is not an OS, etc)
Framedragger: yep
asciilifeform: nuts.
Framedragger: not on debian, it seems. checked on a xeon cpu which has AMT, but module was not loaded
Framedragger: and on x220 lappy with ubuntu, AMT was enabled (will check bios settings later), but not provisioned.
Framedragger: (for posterity, x220 is i5-2520M, xeon server is W3520)
Framedragger: (^ may as well check phuctor box, but module probably won't be loaded.)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655598 << 100% ~adult~ stem cells, afaik☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 09:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655457 << doing a mediocre job of it, too. stem cell research actually yielded various practical results. mostly obscure bone marrow diseases, but hey, it's only obscure until you get it.
asciilifeform: ^ was the most expensive, gram for gram, substance asciilifeform ever worked with, incidentally
asciilifeform: Framedragger: didja read the linked code? How about the kernel mod it depends on?
asciilifeform: suppose it ~enables~ something, say.
asciilifeform: why not do same test by attempting the original ( now - public ) remote diddle ?
Framedragger: well, that's why i said "dunno if any good". on *cursory* glance, nothing mischievous, but obvs wouldn't v-sign it
phf`: that article was inoffensive, but sloppy. some offhand points i think required elaboration (i.e. missing republican footnotes!), others were superfluous
Framedragger: asciilifeform: remote diddle only works if AMT is not only enabled but also *provisioned*.
asciilifeform: phf`: which one
Framedragger: makes sense to know if only enabled, too
phf`: locklin
asciilifeform: Framedragger: what does enabled-but-not-provisioned do ?
Framedragger: tl;dr is "i have nfi"
Framedragger: but it seems that it's then possible to run *local* exploit (privilege escalation)
Framedragger: where was that link to intel's content-less advisory... it had two parts, one remote, one local
asciilifeform: Framedragger: privesc on all intel boxes is trivial.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ah: https://security-center.intel.com/advisory.aspx?intelid=INTEL-SA-00075&languageid=en-fr
Framedragger: and computers are not computers in the first place; does not negate the point about "if enabled, still bad, and good to know/check."
phf`: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-11#1654941 << so i got a replacement copy, in it's in even worse state than the first one! this one the entire lower edge is butchered during cutting. automated self-publishing ftw☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-11 21:24 phf`: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-10#1653984 << so i got a copy, mine had a mechanical looking gash in the spine, had to send it for replacement. otherwise it's not horrible. it's a cheap thermal binding, but the paper is crisp, and the source is TeX so it looks reasonable.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: see bullet point "An unprivileged local attacker could provision manageability features gaining unprivileged network or local system privileges on Intel manageability SKUs"
asciilifeform: Framedragger: tell me why i should give half a fuck re intel's, or microshit's, patch to re-nsaonly-ize an nsahole.
Framedragger: so in theory, a wordpress hax0r could provision AMT if AMT was enabled, thus opening up the remote diddling thing
asciilifeform: good.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i linked to illustrate the diff between enabled vs provisioned. let's not do another confused is/ought debate
asciilifeform: if somebody physically ignited every box on the planet having amt, that would be great.
Framedragger: for schizzle
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655645 << interestingly, i have never seen this. auto-printed b00kz often suffer from terrible (microshit!) formatting, layout. but physically perfect☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 14:13 phf`: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-11#1654941 << so i got a replacement copy, in it's in even worse state than the first one! this one the entire lower edge is butchered during cutting. automated self-publishing ftw
asciilifeform: at least all the ones i have here.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655626 << not really. peripheral blood stem cells, placental, various.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 14:05 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655598 << 100% ~adult~ stem cells, afaik
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: link to useful result from the famous embryonic ones
asciilifeform: afaik it ended up summing to 0.
phf`: right, well the originals are presumably TeX formatted ps files, so it's impossible to butcher that part. somehow they can't seem to get it pressed properly. maybe it's just my luck
asciilifeform: ( though , unlike locklin, i will not rule out wreckers as the explanation )
mircea_popescu: !~google katie sharify
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Stories of Hope: Spinal Cord Injury | California's Stem Cell Agency: <https://www.cirm.ca.gov/our-progress/stories-hope-spinal-cord-injury>; World's 1st Human Embryonic Stem Cell Trial for Spinal Cord Injury ...: <https://www.cirm.ca.gov/our-progress/video/worlds-1st-human-embryonic-stem-cell-trial-spinal-cord-injury-katie-sharify>; Meet Katie Sharify : A Participant in the World's First Human ...: (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: and i will note that your policy of strongly held opinions in poorly known fields is not working so well. not re turbines, not re stem cells etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: gonna link to a commercial turbine hybrid ? or somehing other than video with some chick re embryo cell ?
mircea_popescu: sigh.
asciilifeform: project much ?
asciilifeform: i'll point out that a 'onesie' ('apricots cured mr smith!') is ~not~ a clinical result.
asciilifeform: regardless of how made.
mircea_popescu: so far i have an onesie and you have your world famous brand of alf's gut flora.
asciilifeform: which yes, means that penicillin was not yet a result back when it was curing that one brit policeman.
mircea_popescu: !~google hESC macular degeneration.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Treatment of Macular Degeneration Using Embryonic ... - NCBI - NIH: <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4437471/>; Phase 1 Safety Assessment of CPCB-RPE1, hESC -derived RPE ...: <https://www.cirm.ca.gov/our-progress/awards/phase-1-safety-assessment-cpcb-rpe1-hesc-derived-rpe-cell-coated-parylene>; hESC and iPSC-based products in clinical trials : Current status of ...: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: that's moar like it
mircea_popescu: !~google AST-OPC1
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: AST - OPC1 - Asterias Biotherapeutics - A Global Leader In ...: <http://asteriasbiotherapeutics.com/AST-OPC1.php>; AST - OPC1 - BioTime, Inc.: <http://www.biotimeinc.com/products-pipeline/ast-opc1/>; California Institute of Regenerative Medicine - BioTime, Inc.: <http://www.biotimeinc.com/california-institute-of-regenerative-medicine/>
asciilifeform goes to read, update re 'did it ever work'
asciilifeform: maybe meanwhile mircea_popescu will also find hybrid turbine. i'd like one
asciilifeform: ( betcha it was in aston martin or the like... )
mircea_popescu: the statement was "some kind of turbine under the hood, even if masquerading as a more traditional something or other".
mircea_popescu: not that there aren't eg
mircea_popescu: !~google LM6000
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: LM6000 -PF/PF+ Gas Turbine | Combined Cycle | GE Power: <https://powergen.gepower.com/products/aeroderivative-gas-turbines/lm6000-gas-turbine-family.html>; LM6000 - The LM6000 Engine | GE Aviation: <https://www.geaviation.com/marine/engines/military/lm6000-engine>; General Electric LM6000 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_LM6000>
asciilifeform: that looks like a naval engine, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform pictures auto with subj !
mircea_popescu: what is your idea of, eg, turbo-diesel ?
mircea_popescu: or w/e, turbocharger.
asciilifeform: turbochargers are found in many high end auto ( iirc ben_vulpes had one )
mircea_popescu: which is what i fucking said.
asciilifeform: but is not a turbine engine
mircea_popescu: and why not ?
asciilifeform: where 1 moving part
asciilifeform: turbocharged piston engine is own, ww2-era item
mircea_popescu: but on what grounds do you disqualify it from "turbine", other than "it successfuly masquerades as something else, fooling me"
asciilifeform: because they are wholly different items ??
mircea_popescu: like, say, an apple.
mircea_popescu: wholly different.
asciilifeform: srsly are we having the '2-cycle diesels' thread again ?
mircea_popescu: no, we are having the thread where "turbine is not nao turbine because it's different"
mircea_popescu: you ever saw the fucking item ? how is it not a turbine ?
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu direly wants to drive a land vehicle with actual turbine engine - there is at least one ! : abrams tank.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by same token as your reasoning above, my comp is a turbine engine ( has turbine fan in it , hey )
mircea_popescu: your computer does not burn a fuel.
asciilifeform: but in your supercharged bugati, pistons provide the motive force, not hot gas turning turbine
mircea_popescu: the hot gas turbine provides SOME OF the force.
mircea_popescu: which was the original fucking contention dear lord.
asciilifeform: of the O2, for the stoichiometric mix - provides. force, nope
mircea_popescu: in this sense jet engine does not power the jet because... gases moving about do.
mircea_popescu: mmkay. it's really the air under the fore wing that's the plane's engine.
asciilifeform: the part which is moved by expanding gas, in a combustion engine, is the one of interest re 'which type of engine'
asciilifeform: at least on the planet i'm posting from
mircea_popescu: whether you attach the items to the drive train via electric exchange ; or whether you attach them via the historical arrangement known as turbocharger, in point of fact you've put some items to work for your transmission.
asciilifeform: how to do transmission is separate q from engine
asciilifeform: (was original thread)
mircea_popescu: point being that in the modern diesel, a turbine is attached to the carnot engine, much in the manner in which in a modern hybrid, a carnot engine is attached to the electric motor.
mircea_popescu: ie, there's some power sent to the wheels through engine 1 by engine 2.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the turbo was originally a ship-and-train tech, in the 20s or w/e.
asciilifeform: theoretically. but if you go to auto dealer and ask for turbine engine, a very confused d00d may or may not sell you an abrams..
asciilifeform finally sees at least where mircea_popescu got the idea.
mircea_popescu: if i take my cues from dudes working in auto dealers, i might even end up with no bitcoin and a dozen credit cards.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: "very confused salesman" test. i gotta remember this one.
asciilifeform: btw abrams illustrated a certain minus of proper (1 moving part, gas turns shaft) turbine : high revv-up cost
mircea_popescu: yes, but in a proper arrangement (electric, gasoline, gas) hybrid, the gas turbine needn't cover all power curves.
asciilifeform: i always wondered if this is intrinsic to the tech, or just american stupidity
asciilifeform: yes but engine still turns for a few hrs in a human auto, vs weeks at, say, sea
mircea_popescu: anyway, to revisit upstack : putting "quantum computing" in the same pile of failed technologies as stem cell research is beyond idiotic. holy hell, every woman that ever was pregnant got the embryonic boost, measurable and measured, wtf.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ideal functioning of, eg, semi, is that engine turns at 4800 for 8 hours straight.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: workings of stock meat are not a technology
mircea_popescu: this ideal is actually achieved, in middle usland.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: harvester , say
asciilifeform pictures harvester with gas turbine
asciilifeform: would be spiffy
mircea_popescu: item dun really need so much power i don't think, but certainly used in the higher power tractors iirc.
asciilifeform: abrams, for instance, runs on just about any flammable liquid
asciilifeform: could burn liquishit, i bet
mircea_popescu: !~google ford typhoon tractor
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: A jet-powered tractor ? - Successful Farming: <http://www.agriculture.com/machinery/tractors/antique-tractor/a-jetpowered-tract_201-ar26626>; View additional information about Turbine Tractors . - Marvin ...: <http://www.marvinbaumann.com/turbinetractors.html>; Typhoon II Ford Typhoon II - Marvin Baumann Antique Tractors: <http://www.marvinbaumann.com/typhoon2.html>
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ^
asciilifeform: looks like it was made in example of 1 .
mircea_popescu: somehow the "conspiracy to supress" ~never mentions this. always impresses me re the culture and literacy of the little john smiths us soil keeps popping like mushrooms everywhere
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc a half dozen or somesuch. but taken to faires and so on
asciilifeform: why not caught on, i wonder
mircea_popescu: nfi. one of those puzzlers.
asciilifeform: possibly ben_vulpes knows.
mircea_popescu: was certainly displayed in public, to great excitement.
asciilifeform: some engine sound great on paper, but painful in practice
asciilifeform: ( expensive to make, or vibrate, say, to early grave, or , or )
mircea_popescu: if it had such a tail i dunno of it.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu linked once to an interesting example of this
asciilifeform: opposing-piston thing
mircea_popescu: right
mircea_popescu: when fishing through the (rather consistent) history of engines, one's always to be careful. lotta curly items in there.
mircea_popescu: anyway. to be perfectly fair and generally speaking sane : the actual technological need driving the modern hybrid craze has ~nothing to do with the declared reasoning (envirobs) and everything to do with the desperate attempts of engineers who noticed they have a pile of ~useful items to arrange them in an optimal configuration.
asciilifeform: aha, the lappy battery
mircea_popescu: it's not hard to observe, as a theoretical physicist at least, that ~all engines to date are stumbling at a general problem with naive assumptions.
mircea_popescu: you got a turbine, which'll burn ~anything but does not spool, you've got a gasoline engine, which will this but not that, there's electric which is most efficient but uses the most volatile of fuels, make something of this!
asciilifeform: incidentally 'hey, we have a pile of shit' is how we got he light petrol auto to begin with
asciilifeform: ( so folx in petro business can sell it, instead of flaring it )
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: contrary to what "the people" of "our democracy" have in mind, nobody made cars "so that" little miss humpernickle can take her groceries home easierlier.
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
mircea_popescu: yah but tell it to her daughters you get a reaction quite like yours re turbo hybrids above
mircea_popescu: "oh we've never read it stated like that before!!" "mkay, i'm sure such happenstance does something"
asciilifeform: hey i was half convinced that i slept for 20yrs and mircea_popescu was about to show me a proper gas turbine auto, lol
asciilifeform: because that would be massively neat
mircea_popescu: the other item i'm vaguely surprised they're not deplyoing is the actual oxygen purifier engine. srsly, put atmospheric air into your chamber ? because you hate yourself or why.
asciilifeform: ( no pistons, no misfires, run on anything that burns... )
mircea_popescu: "80% nitrogen is great!!1"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how'd that work ? zeolite ?
mircea_popescu: i have nfi, what am i, a carmaker head engineer ?
mircea_popescu: but it seems, very from-the-satellite view, that it should work somehow. at least to my eye
asciilifeform: and out of what would you make the combustor.
mircea_popescu: chinese earths.
mircea_popescu: they can make a touch screen, they can make a chamber for o3 reduction.
asciilifeform pictures tungsten engine block
mircea_popescu: for instance. what of it ?
mircea_popescu: tungsten coat, $1.5 in quantity.
mircea_popescu: gotta to something with aqll the wolfram they're not using for proper lightbulbs anymore.
asciilifeform: and how much engine will weigh ?
mircea_popescu: the public LOVES their car being heavy.
mircea_popescu: make better bearings, lose nothing.
asciilifeform: at any rate could work at sea
mircea_popescu: or could work miniaturized. imagine, alf, 125 gram half horsepower engine.
asciilifeform: but do ask the rocketeers how great pure o2 is to have around. corrosive, explosive.
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
mircea_popescu: (typical carnot cycle does not miniaturize well. turbine however... might.)
asciilifeform: model engines are a funny thing, use interesting fuels
mircea_popescu: aha!
asciilifeform: e.g. nitromethane
mircea_popescu: ie, they asymptotically tend towards... o2 reductor / h2 donor.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: and evidently the metalworking tech to make the 100 gram turbine is here. wasn't here say 1980.
asciilifeform: interestingly, pulse jet ( yes, of german 'v1' ) miniaturizes well
mircea_popescu: what got me thinking of this to begin with.
asciilifeform: somebody actually built a laptop-powering gas turbine iirc.
mircea_popescu: ah they did ?
mircea_popescu: that's the other thing - gas turbine works great with electric gen.
asciilifeform: demo, in qty 1, it was hyped in '90s iirc
mircea_popescu: which is how we ended up with THAT entire bs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i guess was asleep at the time.
mircea_popescu: i mean... asciilifeform i guess I was asleep at the time.
asciilifeform: and yes - turbine is probably the most well-known example of recent qualitative jumps in what can be made, from advance in metalworking
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655633 << if you mean the locklin piece, guess what! was my first impression of the dood five years ago as well.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 14:09 phf`: that article was inoffensive, but sloppy. some offhand points i think required elaboration (i.e. missing republican footnotes!), others were superfluous
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha! and it doesn't seem, from casual survey of the field, that they actually put to work ~everything available. the silicone people are cutting metal masks to the three atom widths ffs.
asciilifeform: photo-lithography worx great for flat objects
asciilifeform: not so much for 3d
mircea_popescu: when one metalworking gets it within 3 A and the other metalworking gets it to the 3 micrometers, you know there's room for some "nobody could have predicted" qualitative jumps.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know, computers work great for printing 2d, not so much for simulating 3d, also!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall the electrolytic machining thread ?
mircea_popescu: yeah
asciilifeform: srsly perplexing example of 'lost tech'
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2011/de-fapt-de-ce-nu-folositi-voi-linux/#comment-122036 <<< the sad corrolary of existing in public. you get people thanking you in 2017 for your 2011 article recommending ubuntu as a simple "hey, why not linux again ?" stop gap.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625794 << just to update that recommendations had been made, are going through, and my sincere thanks to tmsr as always☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 21:15 Framedragger: @all thanks to this chat i'll now make some urgent recommendations to startup i'm involved with. maybe it's not even gonna be fucked in the ass if moves decisively away. a bit ashamed i had $opinion on $thing-not-researched in the first place.
mircea_popescu: !!up sageprobes
deedbot: sageprobes voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: in other things asciilifeform doesn't know about turbines, some nutjobs will run super-rich mixtures such that gases are still burning through the exhaust manifold and into the turbocharger. this obviously torches the poor turbo in short order, but the temporary power boost is astonishing.
ben_vulpes: also turbochargers are approximately standard these days. new civics come with them stock. efficiency and emissions, baby!
mircea_popescu: i thought you were specifically not supposed to do that
ben_vulpes: car world is full of nutjobs.
mircea_popescu: that it is.
ben_vulpes: "it does wear the soap, doesn't it?"
ben_vulpes: http://www.wrightspeed.com/ << production drivetrain, as described. battery, not described however.
mircea_popescu recalls used to laugh with friends at "racing experts" with the tell-tale flame out the tailpipe.
ben_vulpes: (promo videos showcase semi cab with the horsepower to drift around the desert)
mircea_popescu: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/heres-how-to-make-your-car-exhaust-spit-flames/ << check it out, thgere's even guides.
mircea_popescu: speaking of batshit insane designs,
mircea_popescu: !~google rotary engine
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Rotary engine - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine>; Rotary Engine - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D6BCgl2uumlI>; How It Works: the Mazda Rotary Engine (With Video!): <http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a7103/how-it-works-the-mazda-rotary-engine-with-video/>
ben_vulpes: the wankel!
mircea_popescu: "why not rotate the whole fucking assembly!!!"
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: hey, some men just want to see the catalytic converter burn
mircea_popescu: all dat platinum!
ben_vulpes: also "it's only yours if you're willing to destroy it"
ben_vulpes: that reminds me, i have a rear differential to weld together.
shinohai used to be quite the rx-7 aficionado, owned 2 and loved them both.
asciilifeform: i almost bought a wankel car once
asciilifeform: for bitcoin, no less
asciilifeform: rx7 even.
asciilifeform: re flames, first time i ever rode in a jet, as a boy, was Very Disappoint to see 0 flames coming out of engine
asciilifeform: ( has, of course, nfi re konsoomer jet having 0 afterburner )
mircea_popescu: in other shocking developments, /me learned yesterday that some people actually believe serving a l'anglaise (ie, in their bastardized notion, pre-plated items) is an acceptable manner for waitstaff!
shinohai: !!up alex__c
deedbot: alex__c voiced for 30 minutes.
shinohai: I kinda liked the wankel, would rev to ~10k without batting an eye, perfect marriage for bigger turbos
mircea_popescu was never a fan
asciilifeform: the interface with the shaft, iirc, is the weak point
asciilifeform: and never was solved.
asciilifeform: ( would be a pretty great engine if somehow rotor were coupled ONLY magnetically to outside, and in fact part of a generator )
mircea_popescu: i guess
ben_vulpes: "our demoooocracy!": https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy , also, further hijinks in the era of epsilon snr
asciilifeform: snorematic
mircea_popescu: wtf is "britain heads to polls again" for ?
mircea_popescu: "keep voting until you get an acceptable result" ?
mircea_popescu: and i swear if i see another one of these ustard precious cuntlet ledes with "o nso and so date so and so insignificant schmuck just like the author was being part of an imaginary sequel of seinfeld" ima kidnap some "innocents" and sell them in gabon.
asciilifeform: while(!result){vote();} is the established classic algo of eu
mircea_popescu: fucking ridoinculous "our democracy" bs.
mircea_popescu: uk had three referendums in its entire history, now they want one a year ?
asciilifeform: until Correct Result aha
Framedragger: > opens the guardian piece
Framedragger: > first sentence includes phrase "big data"
Framedragger: > ok
trinque: also matrix numbers, very serious.
shinohai: Can't have a conspiracy piece without Matrix binary, just isn't proper.
trinque: ultimate lulz being that this will be the lasting memory of this page of history, if anybody takes the paragraph point five to write it
mircea_popescu: i dunno that anyone reads the guardian for purposes other than superman magazine or hustler.
mircea_popescu: if you got that particular fetish/brainhole, stroking it is pleasurable, but once the spunk comes out that's it.
trinque: "uh I don't know, people started cutting their dicks as part of a mass mental breakdown. I think they had quite fair skin."
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655846 << /me had a serious dining wtf last night; folks had no idea how to handle the (romanian, actually) chef coming to greet our table☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 16:21 mircea_popescu: in other shocking developments, /me learned yesterday that some people actually believe serving a l'anglaise (ie, in their bastardized notion, pre-plated items) is an acceptable manner for waitstaff!
mircea_popescu: why not ?
trinque: my back was to the poor guy or I'd have handled it from the beginning, only noticed because idiots were getting uncomfortable across from me
trinque: by the time I shook his hand and started chatting with him, guy was uncomfortable and I let him depart
trinque: then two women at table wail "oh he didn't shake our hands"
trinque: I used this as a teachable moment for all
mircea_popescu: good.
mircea_popescu: the (very indian) chef of great local place actually came out of kitchen to see these two people who were eating all the stuff i rodered ; but couldn't summon the courage to more than bow from a distance and scurry off.
mircea_popescu: possibly, through having had a lot of muricans in the joint over the years.
trinque: my own grandfather was chef and owner of a great steak place for decades, did this nightly.
trinque: and wtf, he's supposed to interject himself between the men and women without introductions? this while trying to be a good host?
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/05/14/the-real-bat-lives-on/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The real BaT lives on.
mircea_popescu: generally it's the job of the maitre d', which in more euro-style restaurants is the you know, favoured louis de funes role, not really rhe chef. but custoims vary.
mircea_popescu: the us tv has brought about this chef-restaurant manager combo. dunno how sustainable it is in practice.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: ran when parked << lol
trinque: sadly I think this was a result of a four course meal joint struggling to get by, for same reason as "he didn't introduce himself to me omg"
mircea_popescu: weirdos.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, can you even get a proper (14.) full course meal in teh us anymoar ?
trinque: entirely doubtful
mircea_popescu: fifteen years ago it was good sport to order oyster entree with local fellows present. average american will make faces at the half shell and do it no further harm.
mircea_popescu: of course, even getting oysters fit for the table in the first place was already a dubious matter then.
trinque had the benefit of new england lineage, will harm teh oyster gladly
mircea_popescu: it's funny how the shit evolves, though. historically, the maitre d'hotel would be this knowledgeable, older male, exactly equivalent of the village godfather for his little village onto itself. so HE'd greet you and take you to your table, KNOWING FULL WELL who you were.
mircea_popescu: us vaguely heard of this, has inept girly not yet qualified to bus tables in the front office, asking you who you are.
mircea_popescu: bitch, if you don't know who i am you already failed your job.
mircea_popescu: i suppose the next logical step is to you know, "who ordered the this???". make the customer keenly aware you couldn't give less of a shit about 'em and then whine about how you work in the "service industry" ie he HAS TO TIP YOU!!111
trinque: aha. last night summarizes as "how dare you elevate yourselves by pissing on this husk of hand-me-down *culture* to claim you have one"
shinohai: implying they actually perform a service.
trinque: at least the guy didn't open a fucking potatoslurry franchise.
mircea_popescu has seen a lot of "comida por kilo" eateries in latinoamerica.
mircea_popescu: they taking over the us also ?
trinque often bellowing at unknown, never met ancestors
trinque: they really have you pay by weight?
mircea_popescu: yup.
trinque: epic lul
mircea_popescu: incredibly popular with various young office drone males, evidently living alone in a sort of ship hold.
mircea_popescu: possibly repurposed overhead compartment in airliner ?
shinohai: Lots of oriental restaurants do that around here, pay by weight
mircea_popescu: trinque funny thing being that a) it is infinitely better food than anything pizza hut / taco bell / mcd / kfc etc have on tap and b) it's not really a full dollar a kg from what i've seen.
trinque: should put in a floor pressure pad and turnstile
mircea_popescu: ahahaha!
trinque: one in, one out! no bathroom!
mircea_popescu: shinohai yeah it is possible the azn community is spearheading the reculturation process.
mircea_popescu: lotta chinese folk in latam.
mircea_popescu: but to come back to it : the plague of "handheld devices" did a lot of damage to the marginal socioeconomic utility of a large class of people. they spend all their brainpower correcting quopedoa/wikira/whatever the fuck instead of spending the same undersupplied resorce to keep track of their customers / car direction vector / etcetera.
mircea_popescu: average street urchin in 1917 could be hired on the expectation that after 30 years of either being bored stiff or else payingattention at his job he'd finally make a useul worker.
mircea_popescu: today's street urchin is entirely useless -- he's more than happy to spend 30, 50, 150 years if possible siphoning your salary (which he regards as his living wage / god given right) to pay for the britny spears "music" and entirely similar "start-ups", ie, let a lot of you idiots give us your valuable stuff for free maybe we get enough of it to survive our inept whittling it down and still be somehow worth money.
mircea_popescu: wikipedia loves to compare itself with the various actual encyclopedias it stole most of the material worth reading from, but on a "per line" basis, as if THAT is the fucking point of an encyclopedia, never mind the COMPLETENESS or RELIABILITY parts.
mircea_popescu: they however do not appear willing to compare the 500 hours a dozen men put in to produce an encyclopedia with the 5000 hours a dozen million imbeciles put in to compile the steaming pile of shit aka "online encyclopedia".
mircea_popescu: i could produce more value than what wikipedia's worth by simply boiling the collection of wikipedia "editors" and selling the broth.
asciilifeform: the moar interesting attribute of pediwikia is its ability to prevent actual encyclopaedias.
asciilifeform: ( from existing at all )
asciilifeform: just as britney ~prevents music, etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has an old article about a giant crushing chairs, etc
mircea_popescu: no skin off my back. so i'll be the last person alive to know anything, and every girl i ever meet who's not a retard feels an irrepressible urge to kneel and beg.
mircea_popescu: o noes, cruel fate, plox no more of this briar patch!
asciilifeform: apres moi le deluge (tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: i'm certainly not saving anyone against his own fucking will.
mircea_popescu: selfsame hands!
asciilifeform has often wondered if encyclopaedias, even in the golden age of same (1950s, perhaps) , were useful other than for letting a bright kid know 'approximately what exists' . to adult they served largely same purpose as pediwikia today - 'pulling feeling-knowledgeable cock'
asciilifeform: a kind of intellectual fast-food.
mircea_popescu: imo golden age was 1800s, and their principal utility was to provide ideological allignment for patriarchy.
mircea_popescu: "these are the inferior people to be repressed, for these reasons" is ~the whole point of the original item
asciilifeform: asciilifeform had a 1958 'britannica', made in usa, that he fished out of a dumpster as a boy. it was superb, as far as encyclopaedia goes, about on par with famous большая советская энциклопедия . but today it lives packed in a crate.
mircea_popescu: that the socialist substitute does not work is evident to the proponents, but their interest is of course not in it working. on the contrary.
mircea_popescu: ~exactly identical item to the female photographer/solider war/training exercise heroine.
mircea_popescu: the tmsr log serves a very similar function to diderot's offering, in practice.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aside from 'which savages there exist for you to enslave when you grow up', encyclopaedia had, e.g., which engines exist, what burns in them, how newton tried to make piston work on gunpowder, etc,etc
asciilifeform: general-purpose intro to being a thinking man
mircea_popescu: yes, but the underscore of it all was "these are the things zulus do not know : machine gun, etc. know these so you do not grow up into a zulu."
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: but important point -- without it , you are a zulu. regardless of what else you might have.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not to being a thinking man ; to not being a savage. it's fundamentally negative. know this so you don't end up in the tribe.
mircea_popescu: yet plenty of comme il faut gents were not thinking men. as per babbage etc.
asciilifeform: hence asciilifeform's barf re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655928 . asciilifeform does not want to live among zulu.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 17:23 mircea_popescu: no skin off my back. so i'll be the last person alive to know anything, and every girl i ever meet who's not a retard feels an irrepressible urge to kneel and beg.
asciilifeform: much less chukcha.
mircea_popescu: to be noted that l'encyclopedie (the 1700s item) was a LITERARY WORK. with d'alembert almost a sort of tolkien of his time. it mattered not so much whether the items contained were right or wrong (obviously most were wrong, 1700s) but the fact that you could rely on every respectable gent knowing at least of them.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is not your option.
asciilifeform: ( not as if every item in большая советская энциклопедия were dead on accurate!! )
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: note incidentally that even though delayed because slavs retarded, the soviet item served exactly same function -- how to be non-non-soviet.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu nails it, encyclopaedia is made to be a kind of standards document, for what a cultured man is expected to be aware of
mircea_popescu: quite.
asciilifeform wonders what japanese encyclopaedias looked like
mircea_popescu: bushido neh ?
asciilifeform: ^ another set of folx who were late-comers to mechanical civilization
asciilifeform: re bushido, asciilifeform just read a marvelous treatise on seppuku, the only one afaik of its kind in english
asciilifeform: by one j. seward
mircea_popescu: this related to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-11#1654889 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-11 20:09 asciilifeform: if asciilifeform signs and sends this, he will probably have to design the mips box on toilet paper inside bastille, like de sade
asciilifeform: unrelated. perennial interest of asciilifeform's
mircea_popescu: afaik the only modern attempt didn't work out well.
asciilifeform: well yes, like every other attempt to revive wholly dead cultures
asciilifeform: modern worshippers of, e.g., zeus, sum to ~0
asciilifeform: seppuku was not about picturesque way to cash in yer chips, but part of a system.
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: ( note for n00bz -- most seppuku was carried out on command from superior )
mircea_popescu: the more interesting subset, imo, is the protest suicide.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: but even more interesting pretexts existed
mircea_popescu: i confess i can't imagine how the suicide of competeny, loyal underlying could fail to drive competent ruler to redress.
asciilifeform: e.g., seppuku by a subordinate so as to help his commander prep for own seppuku
mircea_popescu: the problem of course being that competent ruler doesn't need you to cut your head off, and incompetent ruler too thick in the first place.
asciilifeform: also apparently bakufu (shogunate) government had serious problem with 'my commander died, now i will seppuku', and tried to suppress it ( subordinate belongs serving the old master's son, what a waste ) but repeatedly failed.
asciilifeform: many interesting details re particulars of the procedure also ( not of the physical aspects, these are well known - but of humint prepwork prior to ordering a seppukation - gotta make sure the 'star' of the show doesn't bolt )
asciilifeform: seppuku-era jp is quite interesting to asciilifeform because it , you could say, took mircea_popescu's 'people-going-their-own-way-is-retarded' knob and ran with it, turned 'to eleven'
asciilifeform: seppuku per se was the cherry on that particular cake, and quite integral part of the scheme.
mircea_popescu: i suppose the view has legs.
mircea_popescu: of course, average samurai cut down >1 peasants before ending self.
asciilifeform: and average american stomps >1 cockroaches before dying of boredom
mircea_popescu: something like that
asciilifeform tries, fails to find any scan of the mega-b00k (it is small - 100pg) on www.
asciilifeform: megatonnes of liquishit of every description; the 1 good survey of a subject in english - nodice
asciilifeform: out of print since 1960s also, iirc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also of interest was the discussion of the slow ~debasement~ of seppuku -- first the introduction of 'kaishaku' or beheader-secondant himself; then later the earlier and earlier finishing stroke, with scarcely any cuts; then the disappearance even of the knife, and replacement with substitutes (fan, pen, etc) for 'token' performance
asciilifeform: followed the apparently inevitable curve of 'the a-students hire the b-students who hire the c-students who ...'
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FJoZR/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: http://68.media.tumblr.com/7152fcfbf988a120de88c4740d40d1b3/tumblr_n55li8SDJy1tb4rdio1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655547 << http://cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/export_outputs.vpatch , so things index properly☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 05:03 ben_vulpes: on an eeeentiiiiirely different topic, it took months but i recently got the part of my output indexer that excises spent outputs from the index map to compile, which i believe brings the indexer part of this foray to completion. i invite any who'd like to read and comment to download the (unsigned!) vpatch from here cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/export_outputs.vpatch
diana_coman: !!key Top8
deedbot: Not registered.
mod6: So ben_vulpes posted his vpatch: cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/export_outputs.vpatch
mod6: one of the things that, in a 9 second quick review of this that I asked him to consider was in the implementation of "IsMine"; Specifically, "Consider: What do I return from IsMine if I iterate over the entire list and never find a OP_PUBKEYHASH?".
ben_vulpes: well gosh now that you point that out i have to admit that i do not actually know.
ben_vulpes: i'd assumed false, but do not know that for certain.
mod6: He asked me to post my concern here just to start a general dialog about this, and I think that's just fine.
mod6: typically, i like to be explicit over implicit, and that's just one of these little things.
ben_vulpes: yeah i'll buy that
mod6: (style considerations and grinding can be left off until later. as I was saying before, ``first we make it work, then we make it pretty'')
ben_vulpes: lolyes, also worth pointing out that the patch is indented at 2 spaces when the rest of trb is indented at 4
mod6: aside from that, i have no further comments at this time, i've neither read it closly, compiled, nor tested this vpatch.
ben_vulpes: aye aye, ty mod6.
mod6: anytime! great effort you've got rolling here, Sir.
trinque: this is neat.
trinque: will test ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: trinque, asciilifeform, mod6: it does not actually work, unfortunately.
trinque: aok
ben_vulpes: (as i predicted last night)
ben_vulpes: i'm going to step away from testing the indexer /in toto/, and plug this IsMine overload into the test target
mod6: i can help you try to debug/correct the attempt during the week for sure.
ben_vulpes: mod6: it is certain to take more than a week
mod6: no problem if it does, no rush.
trinque still haxing on the deedbot invoicer anyway, but at some point will greatly appreciate a way to track address balances without having privkeys around
trinque: I'm on deck to help however as well.
ben_vulpes: trinque: you can do this today with the slicer i published a while back
ben_vulpes: parser, i mean.
ben_vulpes: should work great in conjunction with asciilifeform's 'cutblock
trinque: dumpblock you mean, or no?
ben_vulpes: no, he wrote a c proggy that cuts blkindex files
trinque: ah.
ben_vulpes: dumpblock is more useful for realtime work in my experience
trinque: now I recall. so yes, I could roll forward using those
ben_vulpes: tail the debug log for processblock: accepted, and then dump the height mentioned in that line
ben_vulpes: parse, looking for spends to any address of interest.
trinque: yes, but aren't you here working on a better implementation of that?
trinque: deposits shall be a human process in either case; I'll just have more to do manually until this thing's done
ben_vulpes: absolutely, but you can use the previous method today, and this thing promises to take a while.
trinque: sure, so does wallet, not going to ship something that's half-baked
trinque: no need to rush on my account, plenty of strange acts of serial cable mangling and other perversions on my end yet
ben_vulpes: get perverse, yo
ben_vulpes: relatedly, i have a patch in abeyance that fixes the test target. i'll bring that out of the refrigerator and start wiring this new IsMine implementation into it.
ben_vulpes: one wrinkle that occurred to me as i tested this patch against a not-completely synced node this afternoon is that satoshi's early transactions were all of the "pay to pubkey" variety, and not today's standard "pay to pubkey hash" breed.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655564 << easy to test when complete, easy to show that it does not work, not easy to test in the sense of "i have changed implementation details, and would like to see how the system behaves now"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 05:12 asciilifeform: if it works on arbitrary addrs, seems like it'd be wuite asy to test
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the other ranch, http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-05-14.log.html#t21:17:35
lobbesbot: Logged on 2017-05-14 21:17:35: <danielpbarron> aaand i have done it. i have a laptop that powers on and without any other touching will end up at the eulora login screen. then when you quit, it drops down to gdb where you can run it again or quit. if you quit, the machine shuts down
mircea_popescu: !!key <Top8>
deedbot: Not registered.
mircea_popescu: !!key Top8
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/DE084EC3E71FBB5B44A92CD58A7A3C2FB60AF2DA.asc
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1656000 << seems not return anything ? is it ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-05-14 22:00 ben_vulpes: well gosh now that you point that out i have to admit that i do not actually know.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i thought fstream is already included. no ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: in bitcoinrpc.cpp? i do not think so... http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=wires_rev1
mircea_popescu: + for (std::map<uint256, std::list<OutputIndex> >::iterator i = relevantOutputs.begin(); i != relevantOutputs.end();) { <<< took me a triple take.
mircea_popescu: is there tmsr rule "no further boost constructs added" ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i thought it gets inherited. entirely likely i don't comprehend c loading model.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you and me both, boddy.
Framedragger: is that from boost? just looks like modern cpp ^
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: that is a standard c99 for loop.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger it does ; not from boost ; satoshi'd have written it as a boost thing im sure
mircea_popescu: question is very general and low priority : "just how far does the stick to 4 rather than 2 space indents thing goes ?".
ben_vulpes: i did use one final BOOST_FOREACH in the output serialization.
mircea_popescu: no, i know, which is why i ask, what's the style here
ben_vulpes: i will reformat with 2, did not feel like futzing with emacs to make 4 spaces happen for this.
ben_vulpes: with 4 i mean.
mircea_popescu: right :D
ben_vulpes: happy to replace the dangling boostism, certainly.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes to my mind "c99 loop vs boost blabla" is very much in the same chapter as 4/2 spaces etc
mircea_popescu: man gotta know, if / when doing patch work, wtf his stylistic choices are required, expected, desired to be
ben_vulpes: i wish that i could recall my reasoning for using that boostism.
mircea_popescu: we already arguably lost a contributor because he couldn't predict what we wouldn't like about the STYLE, rather than substance of his work.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: hm. a map structure and an iterator over it seems clear to me, imho. just looks unfamiliar to a c developer. but not arguing further
ben_vulpes: it may have been simply the first thing i did, and so mimicked existing style.
ben_vulpes: after some time in the pit, i stopped boosting.
mircea_popescu: sounds natural.
Framedragger: s/clear/clean/
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i've no problem with it whatsoever.
Framedragger: ah kk.
ben_vulpes: c/++ is not my "first tongue".
mircea_popescu: + BOOST_FOREACH(PAIRTYPE(opcodetype, valtype)& item, vSolution) << more than one ?
ben_vulpes: i had trouble with the pairtype.
ben_vulpes: i do not understand the subtleties of what is happening in script.cpp, and so decided to stick with shown-good semantics.
ben_vulpes: the boost is glued in very tightly in there.
mircea_popescu: so to summarize : ismine logic is false if !solver, true if item.first==op_pubkeyhash and gethash160=hash160 ; false if item.first==op_pubkeyhash and !gethash160=hash160 ;
mircea_popescu: seems it'd have benefitted from a default return ?
mircea_popescu: because seems as it is that it may not return anything specifically in some cases.
ben_vulpes: i foolishly, naively assumed the compiler would detect that.
mircea_popescu: (this is generally the wost sort of problem, when false is the expected return, because undefined often masquerades false, ie it "seems to work")
ben_vulpes: it does surprise me that the function is declared to return a boolean, but the compiler says nothing about a branch where it might not return anything.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's my understanding that the soul of c is exactly "compiler dun care about this".
ben_vulpes: i am quite glad of the review.
ben_vulpes: possibly the most timely in my tenure with the republic!
mircea_popescu: it might be the first time i had something cogent to say about code.