mircea_popescu: i think it's more in the vein of out and out pederasty.
shinohai: I adore that particular Trilema article
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1179.25, vol: 3533.22164439 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1143.503, vol: 3586.19637 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1181.9, vol: 11069.20358791 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1113.113456, vol: 6642.25280000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1166.508, vol: 1738.27238522 | Volume-weighted last average: 1158.16136332
shinohai: And yes, they are all dancing in the street for nickels now their meme coin is basically no moar
shinohai: Nah they are knitting dogecoin socks for themselves (the homeless) on their sub now
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: PSA that as of now I cannot access the box hosting deedbot via SSH.
trinque: I'm checking in with the host
trinque: looks like my daily backups stopped last night (via ssh tunnel)
trinque: I'm obviously going to tell them *not* to reboot
trinque: wot.deedbot.org is also down
trinque: possible the host fucked up inbound routing
trinque: fail2ban would not have done anything to port 80
trinque: (nor would it have nixed 22 from multiple sources, but anyway)
trinque: host already emailed me back; they're superb
trinque: well the bot's gone; how would that work
trinque: I'm into the box; give me a while to actually figure out what happened
trinque: there's a lot of weirdo shit in the routing table right now
ben_vulpes: i'll just keep mashing buttons not hooked up to anything, like an ape
trinque: almost looks like a pf bug really
trinque: same routing table upon reboot, so I guess it's normal for their network
trinque: same pf.conf as before reboot, works nao
trinque: no weird connections or anything (not that anybody competent would leave those to find)
trinque: eh the test.test.local was just me leaving turds in /etc/hosts
trinque: so routing table's entirely normal
trinque: I have no idea, really, which is always the worst answer
trinque: bizarre. "no, we really don't think this company which extracts what ~everything runs on~ is as valuable as ... pick your non-essential toy company"
trinque: we might lose computers but we'll be extracting and burning oil until we're dead
phf: i couldn't get past title. "ten tricks international oil conglomerates that run everything hate"
ben_vulpes: valuing reserves sounds a lot like "multivariate calculus for experts"
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1181.91, vol: 3741.73431050 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1165.0, vol: 4531.80209 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1183.0, vol: 10287.21329017 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1182.0, vol: 1900.47549958 | Volume-weighted last average: 1178.7211065
mircea_popescu: trinque if it helps, the last that i see on the path to you is 38.104.87.131 (joe's datacenter). 104.192.170.197 is also allocated to them. 138.107.206.73 however does not, it's "olympus corporation" of kiminobu eto, takuro watabe & toru yamaki whatever japanese company. why's that in there.
mircea_popescu: actually... the local branch of olympus, the lens makers.
mircea_popescu: "As you may be aware, Olympus Corporation of the Americas (OCA) recently entered into civil, criminal, and administrative settlements with the United States in connection with the sales and marketing of certain OCA products. This letter provides you with additional information about the settlements, explains OCA’s commitments going forward, and provides you with access to information about those commitments."
mircea_popescu: dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: (story there was, olympus "hired" aka finally accepted its first foreign devil ceo (michael woodford) in 2011 ; and fired him two weeks later as the dude was principally dedicated to the job of, how can we finance usg out of this japanese corp. the usg however didn't go home, but started "legal proceedings", which eventually resulted in the above theft, plus whatever office supplies woodford managed to take home. apparently 6
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: 0mn worth of magic markers is a little much even for japan.)
mircea_popescu: why the fuck is holywood half-black and all fatty, and how the fuck does it expect to hang on to any kind of relevancy in this manner ? bollywood has better women.
mircea_popescu: "this is what subhuman females look like in their natural habitat, the jungle". wtf, europe went to congo to fix this, not to normalize it.
mircea_popescu: phf i am not surprised, it's pretty jarring as far as these get.
mircea_popescu: seems the db write/read wait counts for ~20% of total time ?
mircea_popescu: what'd it establish, wehther the cache helps ? it certainly does.
mircea_popescu: finding what makes the remainder, however, very valuable.
mircea_popescu: because then we could compare something meaningful : the relative compositions of the non-cache waste.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 12:30 mircea_popescu: (story there was, olympus "hired" aka finally accepted its first foreign devil ceo (michael woodford) in 2011 ; and fired him two weeks later as the dude was principally dedicated to the job of, how can we finance usg out of this japanese corp. the usg however didn't go home, but started "legal proceedings", which eventually resulted in the above theft, plus whatever office supplies woodford managed to take home. apparently 6
mircea_popescu: they don't really exist, unless you're a part of the japanese national wot, which...
mircea_popescu: which is the substantiation for the 70bn yet figure i quoted.
mircea_popescu: but no, it's exactly like the charter of a Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи.
mircea_popescu: yeah the 20% figure is more of a sort of "ideal case" ; it can climb to 50% or more like that ^
mircea_popescu: aha. suddenly they would swallow any dick, just as long as it's not trump.
mircea_popescu: and this my dear chitlins is how "overton window" works.
mircea_popescu: "radicalized" progressives ? hurr durr. they'd be HAPPY to have reaganomics now.
mircea_popescu: and in a few years they'd be happy to have one random middle class indian shot in kansas. and so on. "the general public" fills the available crevices, no more.
a111: Logged on 2015-02-14 17:42 mircea_popescu: unrelated datapoints. half energy available \being used to mine bitcoin makes bitcoin safe for humans (safe in the sense of, won't be overrun by the altcoin problem)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is the dirty reads. if you queue the writes what do you do with the reads ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the piece needn't be found as such. a large portion of the us-mexico conflict of the 1980s was over silver. which was good money in china.
mircea_popescu: us and mexico both aimed to supplant the silver standard coin of china.
mircea_popescu: please don't tell me you aim to reimplement jfs in btc ;/ way the fuck cheaper to just use one.
mircea_popescu: anyway. mined-txn is impractical because of a very practical impedance mismatch, which for historical reason we'll render as "not everyone can be a bank".
mircea_popescu: the function of spending money can not be equal to, and has to be decoupoled from, the function of issuing money.
mircea_popescu: this is a truth of the same level of, "a ship needn't carry a shipyard"
mircea_popescu: currently, blocks issue money and txn spend money. and their decoupling, having nodes "mined" to a hard standard while txn are ALSO mined to a much weaker standard, is sensible.
mircea_popescu: yes. if it increases the tx mining standard to the point it's = the block mining standard, you coupled issuance and expense.
mircea_popescu: currently, in order to create a txn you must mine it (calculate some hashes), worth about 1/10^20 of a block or so.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin reduced to coinbase (ie, newly minted coins) spending only.
mircea_popescu: people'd just keep track of the previous outputs like so many tradestones.
mircea_popescu: well, it'd be ~same as the large easter island items, you know ? "immutable object"
mircea_popescu: shinohai tell the little bitch to stop being so fucking poor.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is not directly obvious. anyone may publish any bullshit they want, and i spend 0 cycles not reading it.
mircea_popescu: the solution to this problem is still what it was last we discussed it : make the nodes responsible for the txn they convey to you.
danielpbarron: what if a tx has to come with a proof of work that is just harder to find than the tx as a whole is to verify?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron the problem is that whatever a bar may be placed in front of people, it must be finite. whereas the flow of time is infinite.
mircea_popescu: no matter how expensive a transaction that is is, the bulk of things to come will overcome it.
mircea_popescu: because what is must be a certain way, whereas what isn't yet can be any way whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: however much it cost, fifty or fifty billion, a txn will cost a number.
mircea_popescu: whereas the blockchain will grow and grow and grow, and with it the aggregate cost of handling that one txn will be infinite.
mircea_popescu: it's not so far clear that there can't exist a sensible, and protocol-explicit method to close a market around the fundamental problem of uxto
danielpbarron: periodic flattening of utxo set into 1 addr = 1 output, proof of work to make an address, make addresses expire
mircea_popescu: this is in direct relation to our discussion re how bitcoin fragmentation kills bitcoin anyway.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a market is closed in this sense when all the externalities can be priced.
mircea_popescu: for instance eulora, all items that exist can be priced on the basis of other items that exist ; there are no items outside of this scheme. makes eulora a perfect system.
danielpbarron: the transactions and addresses wouldn't need to contain info about the expiration. the nodes would know when it expires based on when it was first mined into a block
mircea_popescu: such systems do not exist outside of a simulation, take for instance the issue of piracy ; or its exact equivalent, "trade".
mircea_popescu: who will provide the dying empire so the young brits of 1990 can be as cool as the brits of 1790 ?
mircea_popescu: nobody, and consequently... they aren't. but this isn't a market, it's a war.
mircea_popescu: and this is what "when trade stops war starts" fundamentally means : all items WILL be priced. if they can not be priced through a market, they will be priced through a war. which is why whores are the exact mechanism through which war is avoided : in pricingtheir cunt on the market, they avoid the need to have their cunts priced at the point of the sword.
mircea_popescu: it's how the us set itself up the bomb, through "morality", also ; and why as it is dying, that relaxes.
a111: Logged on 2015-09-29 10:10 mircea_popescu: who knows. the venetians spent all their time training the girls to be whores, lost to charles on the field then won in the bedroom.
mircea_popescu: so : maybe there can be a way to organize the whole scheme so that the cost of a txn in terms of node is balanced out with the cost of the txn in terms of user ; and miner.
mircea_popescu: this will necessarily mean that the woman does not own her body, in some sense and to some degree, when discussing cunts ; and that i don't know what the fuck unpleasantry, when discussing bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: the problem with "expiring txn", as fundamentally and intuitively sound as it seems, is that if you lose the relation to the original coinbase, you lost everything.
mircea_popescu: which makes "pruned" blockchain entirely useless for any purpose (other than "convincingly" to a standard that's not actually convincing pretend to be you know, done homework)
mircea_popescu: no, lose in the sense of, "we no longer need to store tx Z because reasons
mircea_popescu: "block 53 produced a 50 bitcoin mining reward. where is it today ?" "uhhh" "sit down."
mircea_popescu: this marries us to an infinite object. which then creates problems, as discussed.
mircea_popescu: now, there is a lot of merit to danielpbarron 's observation -- all that is, must die. but yes, there's also a lot of merit to the contrary alf view -- the whole fucking point here is that we're flirting with immortality, innit now.
mircea_popescu: but the correct trb-i might just as well end up this situation where block reward is 1mn bitcoin, and it dies within 1mn blocks. so all mining does is produce ~ a lease ~ on a chunk of bitcoin. and the value of old bitcoin is monotonically decreasing over their lifetime.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: there'll be up to 1bn coins in the system at all points after the millionth block, and everyone can price their holdings according to blocktime, and all is well.
mircea_popescu: 1mn blocks, it should be pointed out, aka 10mn minutes, is a long time.
mircea_popescu: people have no problem using milk, or for that matter glass. or silicone chips.
mircea_popescu: none of these are "permanent" to the 1mn block standard.
mircea_popescu: well it will also turn the blockchain into a tenable from an untenable proposition.
mircea_popescu: you understand this, yes ? currently the blockchain is an inexistent object the world depends upon.
mircea_popescu: it is no better in any sense that matters than pantsuit mcclinton clown.
mircea_popescu: of course, with this scheme we also lose bitcoin mixing, which is the true problem.
mircea_popescu: deeply unfungible, like people, these txn. 15yo can't fuck 5yo.
mircea_popescu: but the idea is that it does force the presence of LARGE node infrastructure.
mircea_popescu: as large as mining farms, or larger. or i guess less large - by an adjustable factor.
mircea_popescu: it's a step towards closing market as discussed above.
mircea_popescu: not last word in any sense, not in general nor on its own topic. but still, prerequisite. first step sorta thing
mircea_popescu: 'tx is paid for all nodes for a million blocks, while creator pays once and miner rakes in the cake << consider, if it costs 10 bux to store a kb for 1mn blocks, and it costs 20000 bux to mine a block and there's 2k txn to the block, then it can be said the split is even.
mircea_popescu: the storing node chose by the victorious miner to do its prepwork gets whatever they agreed upon.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
mircea_popescu: now, the objection can of course be raised that "what guarantees do i have someone will marry me", to which the answer is of course both none and fuck you. it works if you work it, as the expression goes.
mircea_popescu: a more perfect union, eh. well, plato'd be happy at least.
mircea_popescu: i can scarcely see how could there be more of that, but ok.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 18:39 mircea_popescu: reported by the miner that included it, as best i can tell.
mircea_popescu: totally ruins the "anglotards can think" theory. if they could think this'd be the #1 think they'd be on the lookout for.
deedbot: aseriousgogetta voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: the bizarre things that follow "who are you?"
trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
☟︎ jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Plastics are fundamentally unequal to each other
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i had a very similar idea re: staged-mining. came to it in considering a quality-coin where value is a product of quantity of units and a factor which decreases with each passing block
trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining?
☟︎ trinque: blast to nodes I know which have indicated an interest in mining them
trinque: not speaking of current conditions
trinque: miner doesn't want my fee?
trinque: you are trying to pay for the cost of each node verifying a txn
trinque: the miner is the guy who is going to profit from the transaction being verified
trinque: doesn't really answer the question
trinque: miner wants the chicks, yet I'm supposed to STD test them for him
trinque: let him take the expense; I'll verify his block later
trinque: asciilifeform: why can I not simply transmit the txn directly to any node which has said via protocol "I want txns"
trinque: all I need is prior blocks; wtf am I running this mempool on a non-miner for?
trinque: and then if so why try to pay for the relay cost when it can be dropped
trinque: put it upon my node to know enough miners
trinque: if the fee market cannot pay for such a thing the mining has no future anyway
trinque: are we talking of ideal bitcoin or not wtf
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because the bitcoin network bandwith far exceeds the ACTUAL transaction needs of the civilised world.
trinque: because the actual people doing the mining are not bearing the cost of collecting that which they mine
trinque: make them run the txn accepting infrastructure
trinque: are they payment processors or not
trinque: or is my node meant to lift "0.0000001%" the weight with all the other good socialists
trinque: you cannot mine a block now
trinque: it could indeed be argued that only miner=relay increases the consolidation
trinque: how do you define that? it's in somebody's mempool?
trinque: so what, I mined a block and I ignored you
trinque: it proceeds towards asciilifeform's "mining is a bug" point
trinque: the relay consolidation is already there; it's just obscured by nonsense hair
trinque: that doesn't follow from what I said.
trinque: you would receive blocks like anybody does
trinque: how is "accurate" defined other than "verifies against the last block I have"
trinque: I can send you a completely empty block now as a miner, and you'll take it
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 20:07 mircea_popescu: can you presently count the bitcoin networks that exist ?
trinque: everyone-has-a-mempool is not distinct in any way from miners-run-mempool/nodes-relay-to-known-miner
trinque: miner will in both cases mine the txn he chooses and fuck you
trinque: this may very well be a bug; I'm not lauding the thing
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:17 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
danielpbarron: the thing i was imagining had two different things that go on in "transactions" : sending funds from A to B ; creating new coins out of thin air. and anyone can create the new coins, no matter how much hash power they have. the big miners could still exist to supply high quality coins, while the common user could mine low quality coins
danielpbarron: the quality factor decreases with each mined block
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 17:59 trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
mircea_popescu: somehow fails to raise any serious errors, either. "o hey, turns out on examination... i do not actually exist!"
trinque: it would be polite to have a nervous breakdown at the very least
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 19:24 asciilifeform: this is kindergarten fact. but still.
mircea_popescu: much like say "composites" today is a lot more than the "glass fiber" making the better motor boats on the black sea at the period.
mircea_popescu: they're technically plastics because of the process through which they all work, but that process is no longer fixed one single organic chemistry thing, but a bevy of them.
mircea_popescu: consequently there's no promise "plastics" will behave in the intuitive way.
mircea_popescu: which is how you can have a plastic gun barrel on a gun.
mircea_popescu lolz, the glock is 65% of the market. holy shit this angloworld loves plastics.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:03 asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
mircea_popescu: but yes, in geneeral rewarding hardship creates the problem that it is cheaper to simulate hardship than to go through it.
mircea_popescu: that's why all the efforts to help "black people" as they were understood by white people created a thin sliver of black people tuned to entertain white people atop a large mass of exceptionally disenfranchised if somewhat authentic black people.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-06 18:37 thestringpuller: marketing Snoop Dogg is making a fortune from. d00d is a genius at extracting $$$$ from white girls
trinque: you can just wrap it in the relaying node's signature, and the relaying node gets whatever he demands of the fee; meanwhile miner wants the copy of txn that gives him the most fee
trinque: but I don't see what any of that benefits
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you'll never get the magic number right.
trinque: still no answer why this is better than me having to transmit to a mining node in the first place
trinque: in which case cost is upon me and the miners I talked to, and nobody else's shoulders
mircea_popescu: you find yourself in the ridiculous posture of trying to invent a drm that works and off the cuff.
trinque: asciilifeform: what did you miss where I said "node should advertise whether he wants to mine"
trinque: this draws them into the open as you wanted
trinque: your rhetorical methods are sometimes ridiculous
mircea_popescu: anyway, this notion that you'll color bits with ownership or righteousness or whatever... it dun work irl.
trinque: asciilifeform: under this imagined scheme ~the only way~ anyone can process any transactions is if he opens an orifice to receive them
trinque: how bout you criticize *that* rather than whatever you like
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:10 trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining?
trinque: asciilifeform: yes lets switch between ideal bitcoin thread and current bitcoin thread whenever it suits
mircea_popescu: wait, what ? how the fuck would you remove "incentive for miner secrecy".
trinque sees very little chance of discussing the actual item and tires of chasing it
mircea_popescu: either his rigs don't cost money, in which case it's a proof-of-reddit coin a la doge, or else they do, in which case stfu you're not invited to the party.
mircea_popescu: kinda what the whole mempool does, reduces the wallflower problem. (irl, girls don't dare go up to boys lest other girls think them sluts, and boys don't dare go up to girls lest other boys think them losers)
trinque: it is not distinct from the present day
danielpbarron: in the staged-mining scenario, miner has incentive to be at least somewhat public because he will often find valid solutions that are not quite big enough to solve a block when used alone, but in combination with smaller pieces will work. so he wants to keep a pool of little pieces at the ready to quickly pad his big chunk
trinque: holy fuck the fog of metaphor
trinque: asciilifeform appears to be bending over backwards trying to get people paid to relay txn
☟︎ mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah, the only thing is that if you actually do something like that you are better off dispensing with the notion of "block" and instead create a sort of tree for a blockchain
trinque: why am I relaying txn to 99% of people who aren't going to do a damned thing with it
trinque: rather than the nodes which care (i.e. want [to be paid to] produce a block)
trinque: and since they are engaged in transaction processing, ought to carry the full cost of doing so
mircea_popescu: (currently, from a purely cs theory / systems design perspective, bitcoin can be laughed at because its blockchain is akin to spirogira strands. most ridiculous tree known to nature.
trinque: i.e. collecting them to insert into the block
mircea_popescu: trinque ~same reason you walk down the street in view of everyone rather than just future employers and spouses.
danielpbarron: the 'block' is to keep it all timed right, so that there's still a certain amount of data stored per 10 minute interval. this is also how difficulty is calculated
trinque: I do not need other people's transactions to verify a block
mircea_popescu: trinque but you need either to a) talk to people who might not mine your tx ; or else b) accept living in a usg-run bitcoin world.
trinque: how does the presence of my mempool today prevent some miner for mining whichever txn he chooses?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that is true, but ungermane. your scheme as proposed simply works better on a proper tree. timekeeping separate.
trinque: do I have an interest in affording him this?
trinque: then it seems reasonable for any node operator to accept this cost of doing business
trinque: I can see it; while my mempool does not have anything to do with validating incoming blocks, it gives me my only means of shit-testing the rules by which miners might be filtering transactions.
mircea_popescu: for instance. there's many ways to look at it, which is usually indicative of our not understanding something more fundamental.
mircea_popescu: generally, the mempool function as go between users and nodes. this function is important.
mircea_popescu: it's somewhat amusing that history repeats itself, in that the gossip market only existed because of the interest of powerful players -- it's not like servant women managed to gossip all on their own! but not like they were likely going to get paid for it either!
mircea_popescu: today we have a vaguely similar situation, wherein node world evaporated but not entirely, perhaps in large part because all the players want to keep an eye on all the others.
mircea_popescu: i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: what promises the nodes can make are related to what their counterparties say.
mircea_popescu: in this scheme, a node would only relay a txn to another node if that other node promised it MORE than what it in turn had promised the user.
mircea_popescu: it is the format i expect the market to take once block subsidy drops enough, which is to say in 2 to 3 halvings.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 21:53 trinque: asciilifeform appears to be bending over backwards trying to get people paid to relay txn
mircea_popescu: you mean the cock thing ? nah, part of the sjw uniform.
trinque: the ongoing quest for acceptable male undergarments eh?
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 22:04 mircea_popescu: i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently.
mircea_popescu: but yes, all metaeconomic motivation. i wouldn't call it ccountereconomic. much like me treating the whores well in the 90s contrary to male ideology of the time was not countereconomic.
mircea_popescu: nobody you don;t know is your friend, wtf globalism bs is this.
mircea_popescu: but to be clear - if you are "civilian" you shouldn't be speaking.
mircea_popescu: civilian role is polishing the silverware not judging the ceiling paintings.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:16 asciilifeform: it ~failed to materialize. the continued existence of 0fee tx, anywhere, ever, is proof.
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of cunt, beer, tv etc given away for free every day ; doesn't make these not markets.
mircea_popescu: they're markets alright. the fact that a block subsidy covers 80% or so of the value of a block is the dispositive factor ; and it disposes.
mircea_popescu: if you drew that conclusion from that premise we'd correctly identify you as an engineer martian.
mircea_popescu: cunt's always given away "mosty for free" "with no strings attached". hurr durr, not how it works.
mircea_popescu: and moreover, bitcoin tx is absolutely a seller-s market, definition item.
mircea_popescu: you see a guy with a hot woman, she's sucking his cock. 0 fee ?
mircea_popescu: why, because they gotta registger their transactions with you ?
mircea_popescu: thats the cost of market usage. i can do it when i want.
mircea_popescu: that if you wait long enough eventually an airplane will fall into your yard does not make airplanes a free product outside of the airplane market.
mircea_popescu: also restaurants hire, you hear me, HIRE schmucks to sit down.
mircea_popescu: and clubs pretty much MEAN "collection of hired sluts"
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:17 mircea_popescu: if it were the case you had to pay 2 bux to transact in 2011, bitcoin'd have never exiosted
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 22:07 mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 21:41 asciilifeform: actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought.
mircea_popescu: mno, miner ifnormally tells his nodes he wants txn ; much like lord of manner tells women of the house he wants a girl added.
mircea_popescu: they go running the streets finding an acceptable one.
mircea_popescu: nodes live and die by their promises ; miners live and die by their mining.
mircea_popescu: anyway. taking away the miner choice wrt to what transactions are included would be a major step forward, goes on the list.
mircea_popescu: it's almost as good as "you can't tell who sent who what"