▁▁▁▁▁▁⏐︎ 10548
mircea_popescu: keeps getting idiot kids involved in stupid shit.
asciilifeform: what else to do, the original lure of vacuuming up coin is , i picture, ~gone by now
asciilifeform: so now vacuum people.
asciilifeform: or at the very least 'harmless heatsink' in the off chance people appear.
mircea_popescu: i think it's more in the vein of out and out pederasty.
asciilifeform: as, with actual buggery..?
shinohai: https://www.ethnews.com/sha-1-may-be-broken-but-ethereum-is-still-secure <<< Priceless
mircea_popescu: well, not really actual anything, that'd take actual existence. more in the vein of http://trilema.com/2014/why-dogecoin-is-a-scam-why-the-people-pushing-it-are-assholes-why-business-insider-is-a-contemptible-piece-of-shit-why-anyone-who-ever-worked-for-it-will-be-dancing-in-the-street-for-nickels-and-wh/#selection-265.0-265
shinohai: I adore that particular Trilema article
mircea_popescu: ha!
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1179.25, vol: 3533.22164439 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1143.503, vol: 3586.19637 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1181.9, vol: 11069.20358791 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1113.113456, vol: 6642.25280000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1166.508, vol: 1738.27238522 | Volume-weighted last average: 1158.16136332
BingoBoingo: http://oglaf.com/actor-n-bishop/
shinohai: And yes, they are all dancing in the street for nickels now their meme coin is basically no moar
asciilifeform: i'dvethunk they'dve been danced out by nao
mircea_popescu: speaking of, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLVuLkt1JCY
shinohai: Nah they are knitting dogecoin socks for themselves (the homeless) on their sub now
shinohai: To dance in!
asciilifeform: !!up fromloper
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: in other noose, asciilifeform saw a turkish film about the cats of istanbul
asciilifeform: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4420704
asciilifeform: possibly best thing i ever saw in a cinema.
trinque: PSA that as of now I cannot access the box hosting deedbot via SSH.
trinque: I'm checking in with the host
trinque: looks like my daily backups stopped last night (via ssh tunnel)
asciilifeform: ugh
asciilifeform: trinque: do they have remote-kvm ?
trinque: sure do
trinque: I'm obviously going to tell them *not* to reboot
trinque: wot.deedbot.org is also down
trinque: which is on the same box.
trinque: possible the host fucked up inbound routing
trinque: fail2ban would not have done anything to port 80
trinque: (nor would it have nixed 22 from multiple sources, but anyway)
trinque: host already emailed me back; they're superb
trinque: "joes datacenter"
ben_vulpes: !!reputation trinque
ben_vulpes: *facepalm*
trinque: well the bot's gone; how would that work
ben_vulpes: didn't see the final part
trinque: I'm into the box; give me a while to actually figure out what happened
ben_vulpes: join, part, /me thinks cool!
ben_vulpes: nah, no rush
trinque: there's a lot of weirdo shit in the routing table right now
ben_vulpes: i'll just keep mashing buttons not hooked up to anything, like an ape
trinque: they're attached again.
trinque: ben_vulpes: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VcIWx/?raw=true << behold the wtf ☟︎
trinque: almost looks like a pf bug really
trinque: same routing table upon reboot, so I guess it's normal for their network
trinque: same pf.conf as before reboot, works nao
trinque: no weird connections or anything (not that anybody competent would leave those to find)
trinque: eh the test.test.local was just me leaving turds in /etc/hosts
trinque: so routing table's entirely normal
trinque: I have no idea, really, which is always the worst answer
mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000256.html << interesting alf, thanks for posting.
ben_vulpes: since it's quiet: http://archive.is/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-23/saudi-arabia-2-trillion-aramco-vision-runs-into-market-reality
trinque: bizarre. "no, we really don't think this company which extracts what ~everything runs on~ is as valuable as ... pick your non-essential toy company"
trinque: we might lose computers but we'll be extracting and burning oil until we're dead
ben_vulpes: can saudi arabia not buy russia?
phf: i couldn't get past title. "ten tricks international oil conglomerates that run everything hate"
ben_vulpes: valuing reserves sounds a lot like "multivariate calculus for experts"
BingoBoingo: lol
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1181.91, vol: 3741.73431050 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1165.0, vol: 4531.80209 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1183.0, vol: 10287.21329017 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1182.0, vol: 1900.47549958 | Volume-weighted last average: 1178.7211065
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1618983 << it must be a bit of an ego boost when one's like... shown things, on a service which has their name in the url lel. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 02:58 trinque: ben_vulpes: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VcIWx/?raw=true << behold the wtf
mircea_popescu: trinque if it helps, the last that i see on the path to you is (joe's datacenter). is also allocated to them. however does not, it's "olympus corporation" of kiminobu eto, takuro watabe & toru yamaki whatever japanese company. why's that in there.
mircea_popescu: actually... the local branch of olympus, the lens makers.
mircea_popescu: "As you may be aware, Olympus Corporation of the Americas (OCA) recently entered into civil, criminal, and administrative settlements with the United States in connection with the sales and marketing of certain OCA products. This letter provides you with additional information about the settlements, explains OCA’s commitments going forward, and provides you with access to information about those commitments."
mircea_popescu: i wasn't aware, but hey.
mircea_popescu: dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N1FU2BY?type=companyNews << and, obviously, their interlocking bank is ditching them.
mircea_popescu: (story there was, olympus "hired" aka finally accepted its first foreign devil ceo (michael woodford) in 2011 ; and fired him two weeks later as the dude was principally dedicated to the job of, how can we finance usg out of this japanese corp. the usg however didn't go home, but started "legal proceedings", which eventually resulted in the above theft, plus whatever office supplies woodford managed to take home. apparently 6 ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: 0mn worth of magic markers is a little much even for japan.)
mircea_popescu: and in other brown-shirts-with-gray-trim news, https://qz.com/919678/srinivas-kuchibhotla-muder-the-infuriating-silence-of-donald-trump-over-an-indian-engineers-murder-in-kansas/ ☟︎
mircea_popescu: https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/ap_17058207841866-e1488176685278.jpg << holy shit look at that, every single one of them IS FUCKING FAT omfg wtf.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck is holywood half-black and all fatty, and how the fuck does it expect to hang on to any kind of relevancy in this manner ? bollywood has better women.
shinohai: Diversity!
mircea_popescu: what fucking diversity, they're all the same cow.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619011 << front page story in indian newspapers for past three days ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 13:18 mircea_popescu: and in other brown-shirts-with-gray-trim news, https://qz.com/919678/srinivas-kuchibhotla-muder-the-infuriating-silence-of-donald-trump-over-an-indian-engineers-murder-in-kansas/
mircea_popescu: "this is what subhuman females look like in their natural habitat, the jungle". wtf, europe went to congo to fix this, not to normalize it.
mircea_popescu: phf i am not surprised, it's pretty jarring as far as these get.
asciilifeform: in other noose, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/with_cache.txt << the cache thing, to current time ☟︎
mircea_popescu: seems the db write/read wait counts for ~20% of total time ?
asciilifeform: often much less, when we have the 4GB cache
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit is that i do not have 2 identical boxes to run the cache/no-cache variant on, in parallel
asciilifeform: perhaps somebody can be arsed
mircea_popescu: what'd it establish, wehther the cache helps ? it certainly does.
asciilifeform: it isn't clear to me, that it does. the typical verification time is ~same
mircea_popescu: finding what makes the remainder, however, very valuable.
mircea_popescu: because then we could compare something meaningful : the relative compositions of the non-cache waste.
asciilifeform: gprof is the divinely ordained proper way to do this. however will need a bad old dynamic linking build. so will take some work.
asciilifeform: however the one solid clue i have so far is 'disk' -- on the ssd box, a block packed to the bursting point with liquishit, takes ~15 seconds to verify. max.
mircea_popescu: yes
asciilifeform: (i really oughta say 'verify and save', rather than verify)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619009 << i'd much like to hear the details of this, if they exist somewhere. because the Official version makes 0 sense ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 12:30 mircea_popescu: (story there was, olympus "hired" aka finally accepted its first foreign devil ceo (michael woodford) in 2011 ; and fired him two weeks later as the dude was principally dedicated to the job of, how can we finance usg out of this japanese corp. the usg however didn't go home, but started "legal proceedings", which eventually resulted in the above theft, plus whatever office supplies woodford managed to take home. apparently 6
asciilifeform: ( how did the d00d siphon moneys to usg ? how was this later turned into 'whistleblow' ? )
mircea_popescu: they don't really exist, unless you're a part of the japanese national wot, which...
asciilifeform: as i expected
asciilifeform: fwiw does not appear to be a btc node
mircea_popescu: there is, of course, http://cache.olympusamerica.com/static/msg_section/documents/2016/Anti-Kickback-Statute---OCA-Deferred-Prosecution-Agreement---Fully-Executed.pdf
asciilifeform: ( or to have been one any time in past year )
mircea_popescu: which is the substantiation for the 70bn yet figure i quoted.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/clockwise/ << Trilema - Clockwise
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that 'agreement' is brain-melting
mircea_popescu: wouldn't you say.
mircea_popescu: but no, it's exactly like the charter of a Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи.
mircea_popescu: 5% in cash payment + soviet comissar.
asciilifeform: aaha.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, we still see 'ProcessBlock (res == 1) took : 673809ms; db write wait: 397971ms; db read wait: 64890ms' (block 454992) and 'ProcessBlock (res == 1) took : 456196ms; db write wait: 179701ms; db read wait: 16621ms' (454993) . enemy's strategy is quite trivial, thrash the cache.
mircea_popescu: yeah the 20% figure is more of a sort of "ideal case" ; it can climb to 50% or more like that ^
asciilifeform: 'George W. Bush on Trump's Ties to Russia: 'We All Need Answers''
asciilifeform: look who they dusted off.
mircea_popescu: aha. suddenly they would swallow any dick, just as long as it's not trump.
mircea_popescu: and this my dear chitlins is how "overton window" works.
mircea_popescu: "radicalized" progressives ? hurr durr. they'd be HAPPY to have reaganomics now.
mircea_popescu: and in a few years they'd be happy to have one random middle class indian shot in kansas. and so on. "the general public" fills the available crevices, no more.
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack: mircea_popescu can you think of any reason not to queue the writes ?
asciilifeform: to revisit much further upstack, to http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-14#1018732 ( via mircea_popescu's latest article ) -- consider a 'trb-i' where a tx carries proof of work, and is likewise mined as is the block ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-02-14 17:42 mircea_popescu: unrelated datapoints. half energy available \being used to mine bitcoin makes bitcoin safe for humans (safe in the sense of, won't be overrun by the altcoin problem)
asciilifeform: ( one possible way to cut the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618589 knot -- ~everybody~ is a txer, miner, and node ) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
asciilifeform: needless to say this would be riotously bad idea if pools remain possible (they must - protocolically - die.)
asciilifeform: there are two known solutions to 'allcomers problem' -- proof-of-work; and limited-access (wotronic). tertium ~probably~ non datur.
asciilifeform: (speaking of proofofwork -- iirc szabo had a lulzy piece about two tribes of northwest-american indians who traded sea shells that were too abundant in each tribe's section of the coast to use as proofofwork, to the other, where they were usable )
asciilifeform: ^ can anyone find this piece ? or it evaporated.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is the dirty reads. if you queue the writes what do you do with the reads ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: would have to have some equivalent of fs journal
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the piece needn't be found as such. a large portion of the us-mexico conflict of the 1980s was over silver. which was good money in china.
asciilifeform: (i.e. 'these writes don't count until X is also written')
mircea_popescu: us and mexico both aimed to supplant the silver standard coin of china.
asciilifeform: 1890s neh
mircea_popescu: please don't tell me you aim to reimplement jfs in btc ;/ way the fuck cheaper to just use one.
mircea_popescu: yeh.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: just to make it absolutely clear, i don't see a long-term future for satoshi's turd. all of my work on trb is to be regarded in same light as the neutron-absorbing armour on 1970s sov tanks -- something with which to prolong the life of the crew ~slightly~ so that it can drive over freshly-nuked ground and last a few hours of shootout.
mircea_popescu: anyway. mined-txn is impractical because of a very practical impedance mismatch, which for historical reason we'll render as "not everyone can be a bank".
asciilifeform: do plz elaborate
mircea_popescu: the function of spending money can not be equal to, and has to be decoupoled from, the function of issuing money.
mircea_popescu: this is a truth of the same level of, "a ship needn't carry a shipyard"
asciilifeform: ( i can picture that people wishing to 'be bank' will bid up the cost of txing, by pushing up difficulty. but the wotronic answer -- limit access to nodes to 'subscribers' -- also threatens to re-create banks, neh ? )
mircea_popescu: currently, blocks issue money and txn spend money. and their decoupling, having nodes "mined" to a hard standard while txn are ALSO mined to a much weaker standard, is sensible.
asciilifeform: that's what i suggested earlier
mircea_popescu: hm ?
asciilifeform: say a tx gotta carry proof of work.
asciilifeform: in order to be eligible to be mined into a block.
asciilifeform: separate difficulties.
mircea_popescu: yes. if it increases the tx mining standard to the point it's = the block mining standard, you coupled issuance and expense.
mircea_popescu: if not, then you still have thew present situation.
mircea_popescu: currently, in order to create a txn you must mine it (calculate some hashes), worth about 1/10^20 of a block or so.
asciilifeform: what would the degenerate case -- block==1tx -- look like ?
mircea_popescu: bitcoin reduced to coinbase (ie, newly minted coins) spending only.
asciilifeform: oops, 2 tx
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: nah, just the one.
asciilifeform: that'd be pretty useless
mircea_popescu: people'd just keep track of the previous outputs like so many tradestones.
mircea_popescu: it would be, yes.
asciilifeform: (test of heat sink, perhaps. but 0 else.)
shinohai: https://twitter.com/crainbf/status/836170461016903680 ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: well, it'd be ~same as the large easter island items, you know ? "immutable object"
mircea_popescu: shinohai tell the little bitch to stop being so fucking poor.
asciilifeform: the finding i keep bashing my head against, is the realization that the current scheme ('anyone can make any number of valid tx they want, and everyone else must spend cpu cycles again and again and again testing it') has no future.
asciilifeform: it is elementarily ddostronic.
mircea_popescu: pays 25 bucks. for what the fuck, ashoeshine ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is not directly obvious. anyone may publish any bullshit they want, and i spend 0 cycles not reading it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when it makes it into a block -- king and slave alike, are doomed to spend cycles on it.
asciilifeform: forever.
mircea_popescu: the solution to this problem is still what it was last we discussed it : make the nodes responsible for the txn they convey to you.
mircea_popescu: well that's a different story. hence the http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
asciilifeform: this solves mempool spam but not the basic problem where a tx sitting in a block is an infinite, recurring cost, while the cost of creating it is finite and one-time.
mircea_popescu: there is that.
danielpbarron: what if a tx has to come with a proof of work that is just harder to find than the tx as a whole is to verify?
asciilifeform: mempool spam is ~uninteresting in the long term, wotronic solution solves it
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: was the direction i was thinking in, earlier
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron the problem is that whatever a bar may be placed in front of people, it must be finite. whereas the flow of time is infinite.
mircea_popescu: no matter how expensive a transaction that is is, the bulk of things to come will overcome it.
mircea_popescu: because what is must be a certain way, whereas what isn't yet can be any way whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: whatso~ever~.
asciilifeform: aint' that what 'difficulty' is for ?
mircea_popescu: not obviously.
asciilifeform: 'you bring bigger scissors --- we bring bigger rock'
mircea_popescu: txn will still be stored.
mircea_popescu: however much it cost, fifty or fifty billion, a txn will cost a number.
asciilifeform: aah in that sense -- yes
mircea_popescu: a number is definitionally finite.
mircea_popescu: whereas the blockchain will grow and grow and grow, and with it the aggregate cost of handling that one txn will be infinite.
asciilifeform: i suspect that this is a 'heat death' problem that cannot be fully dealt with.
asciilifeform: but it'd make sense to put whatever brakes on it that could be practically possible.
mircea_popescu: maybe.
asciilifeform: e.g., to make the 'polluters' maximally breathe the farts they create.
mircea_popescu: it's not so far clear that there can't exist a sensible, and protocol-explicit method to close a market around the fundamental problem of uxto
danielpbarron: periodic flattening of utxo set into 1 addr = 1 output, proof of work to make an address, make addresses expire
mircea_popescu: this is in direct relation to our discussion re how bitcoin fragmentation kills bitcoin anyway.
asciilifeform: what means 'close a market'
mircea_popescu: these are all externalities of the same issue
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: expiring addrs are problematic in their own way, see the 'canned tx' discussion from few days ago
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a market is closed in this sense when all the externalities can be priced.
mircea_popescu: for instance eulora, all items that exist can be priced on the basis of other items that exist ; there are no items outside of this scheme. makes eulora a perfect system.
danielpbarron: the transactions and addresses wouldn't need to contain info about the expiration. the nodes would know when it expires based on when it was first mined into a block
mircea_popescu: such systems do not exist outside of a simulation, take for instance the issue of piracy ; or its exact equivalent, "trade".
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: one of the fundamental attractions, as i see it, of bitcoin, is that it is devoid of the idiot usg-powered musical chairs of 'keep moving the money or we'll steal'
mircea_popescu: who will provide the dying empire so the young brits of 1990 can be as cool as the brits of 1790 ?
mircea_popescu: nobody, and consequently... they aren't. but this isn't a market, it's a war.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: i can't speak for others, but i'd have 0 interest in a bitcoin where you can cause someone's coin to evaporate by disrupting his net connectivity for a decade or two (e.g., by imprisoning)
mircea_popescu: and this is what "when trade stops war starts" fundamentally means : all items WILL be priced. if they can not be priced through a market, they will be priced through a war. which is why whores are the exact mechanism through which war is avoided : in pricingtheir cunt on the market, they avoid the need to have their cunts priced at the point of the sword.
mircea_popescu: it's how the us set itself up the bomb, through "morality", also ; and why as it is dying, that relaxes.
mircea_popescu: and so on.
mircea_popescu: re http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-29#1287460 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-09-29 10:10 mircea_popescu: who knows. the venetians spent all their time training the girls to be whores, lost to charles on the field then won in the bedroom.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orlov phrased same lemma with different pieces -- '90s ru produced a dictum, 'don't lend more than it'd cost the creditor to take a contract on you'
asciilifeform: the debtor, that is
asciilifeform: 'don't lend more than it'd cost the debtor to have you plugged'
asciilifeform: this in re the whores and the sword.
mircea_popescu: alright.
mircea_popescu: so : maybe there can be a way to organize the whole scheme so that the cost of a txn in terms of node is balanced out with the cost of the txn in terms of user ; and miner.
mircea_popescu: this will necessarily mean that the woman does not own her body, in some sense and to some degree, when discussing cunts ; and that i don't know what the fuck unpleasantry, when discussing bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: can't say it's directly evident what.
asciilifeform: this is the mega-problem i was stabbing at, in the earlier nodes thread
asciilifeform: with the 'god fee' crackpottery etc.
mircea_popescu: myeah
mircea_popescu: the problem with "expiring txn", as fundamentally and intuitively sound as it seems, is that if you lose the relation to the original coinbase, you lost everything.
mircea_popescu: which makes "pruned" blockchain entirely useless for any purpose (other than "convincingly" to a standard that's not actually convincing pretend to be you know, done homework)
asciilifeform: lose in the sense of , it fails to get mined in the specified interval ?
asciilifeform: aah
mircea_popescu: no, lose in the sense of, "we no longer need to store tx Z because reasons
asciilifeform: as i understand it, there cannot be such a thing as 'safely pruned'
asciilifeform: it is a heathen heresy
mircea_popescu: well for the reason stated.
mircea_popescu: "block 53 produced a 50 bitcoin mining reward. where is it today ?" "uhhh" "sit down."
asciilifeform: likewise for the reason that ~someone~ still has to keep the world history around. as soon as it is not practically accessible to ~anyone, it becomes possible to 'consensus' and fiatolate.
asciilifeform: 'pruned blockchain' is a fundamentally fraudulent object.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: (formally speaking: it converts the protocolic into the promisetronic)
mircea_popescu: this marries us to an infinite object. which then creates problems, as discussed.
mircea_popescu: impossible to price infinite objects.
asciilifeform: this is one of those cases where the constant -- matters
asciilifeform: just as it makes a difference whether we run out of usable tantalum 5000 yrs from now, or in 5.
mircea_popescu: now, there is a lot of merit to danielpbarron 's observation -- all that is, must die. but yes, there's also a lot of merit to the contrary alf view -- the whole fucking point here is that we're flirting with immortality, innit now.
mircea_popescu: but the correct trb-i might just as well end up this situation where block reward is 1mn bitcoin, and it dies within 1mn blocks. so all mining does is produce ~ a lease ~ on a chunk of bitcoin. and the value of old bitcoin is monotonically decreasing over their lifetime. ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: there'll be up to 1bn coins in the system at all points after the millionth block, and everyone can price their holdings according to blocktime, and all is well.
mircea_popescu: 1trn* i mean
asciilifeform: the 1 problem is that ~nobody actually ~wants~ to use a demurraging coin
asciilifeform: it fails 'berlin wall test'
mircea_popescu: 1mn blocks, it should be pointed out, aka 10mn minutes, is a long time.
mircea_popescu: as per your 5k / 5 years tantalum test
mircea_popescu: people have no problem using milk, or for that matter glass. or silicone chips.
mircea_popescu: none of these are "permanent" to the 1mn block standard.
mircea_popescu: (about 19 years give or take)
asciilifeform: tru
asciilifeform: but it does turn an indefinite into a definite-death.
asciilifeform: which is a turnoff.
mircea_popescu: well it will also turn the blockchain into a tenable from an untenable proposition.
mircea_popescu: you understand this, yes ? currently the blockchain is an inexistent object the world depends upon.
mircea_popescu: it is no better in any sense that matters than pantsuit mcclinton clown.
mircea_popescu: of course, with this scheme we also lose bitcoin mixing, which is the true problem.
asciilifeform: the other problem is that 'tx is paid for all nodes for a million blocks, while creator pays once and miner rakes in the cake' is not a substantial improvement over the current case
mircea_popescu: deeply unfungible, like people, these txn. 15yo can't fuck 5yo.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ is exactly what the title says. necessary FOR ANY.
asciilifeform: incidentally mircea_popescu's algo doesn't force miners to ~relay~, necessarily, blocks
asciilifeform: only to gather them
mircea_popescu: indeed.
mircea_popescu: but the idea is that it does force the presence of LARGE node infrastructure.
mircea_popescu: as large as mining farms, or larger. or i guess less large - by an adjustable factor.
mircea_popescu: it's a step towards closing market as discussed above.
asciilifeform: that'd be rather like calling nsa's database a 'large file backup infrastructure'
mircea_popescu: not last word in any sense, not in general nor on its own topic. but still, prerequisite. first step sorta thing
asciilifeform: 'hey ftmeade, can i haz my phone call from last week'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is.
mircea_popescu: 'tx is paid for all nodes for a million blocks, while creator pays once and miner rakes in the cake << consider, if it costs 10 bux to store a kb for 1mn blocks, and it costs 20000 bux to mine a block and there's 2k txn to the block, then it can be said the split is even.
mircea_popescu: whether even is fair or not is a marketable question.
asciilifeform: the nonmining node still gets zilch
asciilifeform: all he gets is the electric bill
mircea_popescu: the storing node chose by the victorious miner to do its prepwork gets whatever they agreed upon.
mircea_popescu: this is closer to marriage, in trying to resolve the noder-miner http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618589 problem. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
mircea_popescu: now, the objection can of course be raised that "what guarantees do i have someone will marry me", to which the answer is of course both none and fuck you. it works if you work it, as the expression goes.
asciilifeform: seems like it'd more likely result in hermaphroditism, than marriage
mircea_popescu: a more perfect union, eh. well, plato'd be happy at least.
asciilifeform: and ~fewer~ nodes, and ~more~ incestuous/selective relaying
mircea_popescu: i can scarcely see how could there be more of that, but ok.
mircea_popescu: consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615679 ; nobody seems much perturbed that THE FIRST TIME A TRANSACTION WAS HEARD OF WAS WHEN IT SHOWED UP IN A BLOCK. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 18:39 mircea_popescu: reported by the miner that included it, as best i can tell.
asciilifeform: if miners vertically integrate
mircea_popescu: totally ruins the "anglotards can think" theory. if they could think this'd be the #1 think they'd be on the lookout for.
asciilifeform: (given mircea_popescu's algo, they more or less must vertically integrate.) then there will be equally little point for nonmining nodes to operate as there is today.
asciilifeform: this is not a strike against mircea_popescu's algo -- imho it is direly necessary
asciilifeform: but it does not solve the 'nodes women' thing.
mircea_popescu: but, of course, http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619219 << this is actually a regular thing -- recall, various pools have wwwtronic forms into which you can piss a tx directly ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 17:11 mircea_popescu: consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615679 ; nobody seems much perturbed that THE FIRST TIME A TRANSACTION WAS HEARD OF WAS WHEN IT SHOWED UP IN A BLOCK.
asciilifeform: at this point it is not a mega-seekrit, that mempool only barely worx.
mircea_popescu: so if you piss it in, what then ?
mircea_popescu: it's broadcast ? to whom ? why not ? etc.
asciilifeform: then it presumably goes into the pipe.
mircea_popescu: pfff.
asciilifeform: which is not connected to mempool in the usual sense (why would, e.g., antpool, want to tell other pools your tx)
mircea_popescu: cuz it's the fucking spec.
asciilifeform: this is an ad-hoc, orcish version of the 'pay to play' discussed earlier.
mircea_popescu: "i can scarcely see how could there be more of that"
asciilifeform: if 'spec' contains an 'octopus gland of death', item that can be safely and unilaterally jettisoned by a player, it'll be jettisoned
mircea_popescu: heh
asciilifeform: just like 'miners are nodes are txers' was jettisoned in, what, 1st year of bitcoin
mircea_popescu: myeah
mircea_popescu: !!up aseriousgogetta
deedbot: aseriousgogetta voiced for 30 minutes.
aseriousgogetta: ty
mircea_popescu: who were you again ?
aseriousgogetta: a serious go getta
aseriousgogetta: ;)
mircea_popescu: that's not much.
aseriousgogetta: life is short
aseriousgogetta: do as much as i can with what little i have.
trinque: the bizarre things that follow "who are you?"
trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random ☟︎
asciilifeform: damn, i was hopin' he'd tell us about something he'd... gone, and gotten
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu here's another crackpottery in re the nodes/miners/txers 'racul, broasca si o stiuca' : ~multistage mining~. where a node can encumber (protocolically/mathematically - for now i will not specify how) a tx with some proofofwork, when passing it on to next relay; and when the tx is mined, the block reward is split between the multiple parents of the final tx.
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: (before anyone laughs, i will point out, yes, the necessary mechanical parts for this do not presently exist.)
asciilifeform: in other lulz, 'medium' now replaces images with blank turds whenever archive.is (and also ye olde archive.org !) saves a page there
asciilifeform: ( e.g., https://medium.com/@dourvaris/my-2015-macbook-pro-retina-exploded-119ea5ea9d1f <<<>>> https://archive.is/p6Z3q <<<>>> http://web.archive.org/web/20170227191525/https://medium.com/@dourvaris/my-2015-macbook-pro-retina-exploded-119ea5ea9d1f )
asciilifeform: archiving the images individually -- strangely, works : e.g., https://archive.is/7XgPb https://archive.is/a5fRg
asciilifeform: and now the interesting observation -- what's with the plastic parts (fan blades, connector headers) that did not melt or so much as warp ?
BingoBoingo: Plastics are fundamentally unequal to each other
asciilifeform: this is kindergarten fact. but still. ☟︎
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i had a very similar idea re: staged-mining. came to it in considering a quality-coin where value is a product of quantity of units and a factor which decreases with each passing block
danielpbarron: eulora-inspired
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: as i currently understand it, the encumbrance algo is the boojum.
asciilifeform: i know of no serious candidates.
asciilifeform: (it has to be ~protocolic~, that is, something that the next-pass relay, or miner, could not simply strip out)
asciilifeform: but at the same time has to preserve the validity of the original tx creator's signature.
asciilifeform: this may very well resolve to mircea_popescu's unsolved 'blind inputs' problem.
asciilifeform: i can think of ~one~ approach, so far: tx creator asks his first-hop node for a nonce, which he then incorporates into his tx, which protocolically declares consent to the node fee. similarly to how miner fee already works. BUT this does not solve the problem of how 2nd ... nth hops, could add anything whatsoever meaningful to the tx.
asciilifeform: and this kind of scheme would also nuke 'canned tx', as discussed earlier. so not really such hot stuff.
asciilifeform: ( the above ^ now that i think about it, could be simplified to mircea_popescu's earlier 'node accepts if you put an output to his addr in your tx' )
asciilifeform: this does 0 for 2nd hop tho.
asciilifeform: also if 'a block has many fathers', as in contemplated scheme, this re-introduces the possibility of pool. which imho is a Bad Thing.
asciilifeform: oooook i finally realized that the problem -- as stated above -- is unsolvable
asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes. ☟︎
asciilifeform: (even if you limit the total node feed to some small constant, the miner can ~still~ take ~100% of it, this way)
asciilifeform: i could picture some clever mathemagical route whereby each hop can only take a portion of what the n-1-th node consented to -- but i know of no algo to make it thinkable.
trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining? ☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: say trinque wants to transmit a tx
asciilifeform: where will he put it ?
trinque: blast to nodes I know which have indicated an interest in mining them
asciilifeform: afaik nobody in tmsr has any direct link to any miner whasoever (or at the very least, wants to admit to it)
trinque: not speaking of current conditions
trinque: miner doesn't want my fee?
asciilifeform: gotta specify why the hypothetical conditions will differ from the current ones, trinque
trinque: you are trying to pay for the cost of each node verifying a txn
trinque: the miner is the guy who is going to profit from the transaction being verified
trinque: why not let him do it
asciilifeform: atm mempool works as a 'meat market' where the eligible chixx stand around, waiting, hoping for a serious mircea_popescu to show up and take'em home
asciilifeform: massive overpressure
trinque: doesn't really answer the question
asciilifeform: or, if you like, a dog pound, where poor beasts await the soap boiler and ~sometimes~ somebody takes one home
trinque: miner wants the chicks, yet I'm supposed to STD test them for him
trinque: let him take the expense; I'll verify his block later
danielpbarron: i've wondered that too, trinque
trinque: asciilifeform: why can I not simply transmit the txn directly to any node which has said via protocol "I want txns"
asciilifeform: trinque: any node that wants to , is in fact welcome to drop the mempool on the floor
asciilifeform: even today
trinque: yes.
trinque: all I need is prior blocks; wtf am I running this mempool on a non-miner for?
trinque: and then if so why try to pay for the relay cost when it can be dropped
trinque: miners can relay
asciilifeform: but in fact if this becomes common -- and you can think of the spamola attacks of last 2 yrs as in fact attempts to MAKE it happen -- propagation will stall.
asciilifeform: because miners have more incentive for secrecy than they have for gathering txes from the wild.
trinque: put it upon my node to know enough miners
asciilifeform: they would actually rather mine coinbasetx-only blocks
asciilifeform: than give away their positions.
trinque: this diminishes over time
trinque: if the fee market cannot pay for such a thing the mining has no future anyway
asciilifeform: there is ~no fee market.
asciilifeform: it ~failed to materialize. the continued existence of 0fee tx, anywhere, ever, is proof. ☟︎
trinque: are we talking of ideal bitcoin or not wtf
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space. ☟︎
trinque: ~why~ did it not
asciilifeform: trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618581 << was one hypothesis. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because the bitcoin network bandwith far exceeds the ACTUAL transaction needs of the civilised world.
trinque: because the actual people doing the mining are not bearing the cost of collecting that which they mine
asciilifeform: trinque: aha. the running thread was re: how might they be made to
trinque: make them run the txn accepting infrastructure
trinque: are they payment processors or not
asciilifeform: currently it is possible to break even as a miner without accepting ANY tx
trinque: or is my node meant to lift "0.0000001%" the weight with all the other good socialists
asciilifeform: the other fundamental problem is that classical bitcoin comes with immense incentive for miner cartelization. if nothing were changed other than 'miner must be a proper node', we get what amounts to visa.
asciilifeform: where you have 6 miners and their 6 nodes, being 'the network'.
trinque: you cannot mine a block now
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: but i can transmit a tx. (for the time being)
trinque: it could indeed be argued that only miner=relay increases the consolidation
trinque: can you though?
trinque: how do you define that? it's in somebody's mempool?
trinque: so what, I mined a block and I ignored you
trinque: it proceeds towards asciilifeform's "mining is a bug" point
asciilifeform: in so far as i can unmistakeably ~determine~ that my tx was not mined -- and know when it ~is~ -- i can transmit. it can take potentially infinite time...
asciilifeform: but i can transmit.
trinque: the relay consolidation is already there; it's just obscured by nonsense hair
asciilifeform: but now picture if i had to own one of the six cartel nodes, to have a verifiable copy of blockchain.
trinque: that doesn't follow from what I said.
trinque: you would receive blocks like anybody does
asciilifeform: what incentive would a fullnode+miner have to send me accurate blocks ?
asciilifeform: in anything like real time
trinque: how is "accurate" defined other than "verifies against the last block I have"
trinque: I can send you a completely empty block now as a miner, and you'll take it
trinque: is that "accurate" ?
asciilifeform: possibly this reduces to the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618268 problem ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 20:07 mircea_popescu: can you presently count the bitcoin networks that exist ?
trinque summarizes point
trinque: everyone-has-a-mempool is not distinct in any way from miners-run-mempool/nodes-relay-to-known-miner
trinque: miner will in both cases mine the txn he chooses and fuck you
trinque: this may very well be a bug; I'm not lauding the thing
asciilifeform: afaik the real boojum is that miner has overwhelming incentive to stay secret, and the more powerful -- the moar so
asciilifeform: observe, no miners have written to asciilifeform asking for ssh-wire to dulap.
asciilifeform: even though such high rollers as mircea_popescu , sometimes transmit tx through it.
asciilifeform: ( now! for all i know, they wrote directly to mircea_popescu . but notice that he is not burning with the desire to share this fact. the secrecy incentive remains even for folks N degrees separated from a known miner ! )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619314 << this is potentially interesting imho ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:17 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: didja write this up at length anywhere ?
danielpbarron: not yet
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it does seem to reduce to the earlier 'let's say mining were what you did to make a tx, and there were no blocks as such' neh ?
asciilifeform: tx-sized blocks, or if you like, block-sized tx..
asciilifeform: and (as iirc mircea_popescu observed also) it would reduce to ~same situation as today, where the folx with the serious hashing iron would eat ~all of the cake, and everybody else gets to do the laundry.
danielpbarron: the thing i was imagining had two different things that go on in "transactions" : sending funds from A to B ; creating new coins out of thin air. and anyone can create the new coins, no matter how much hash power they have. the big miners could still exist to supply high quality coins, while the common user could mine low quality coins
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: educate me ( a non-euloran ) what means 'quality of coin'
asciilifeform: is it the knapsack problem, where coins are now vectors, rather than scalars, they have a volume and a density ?
asciilifeform: what does one do with 'low-quality coins' ?
asciilifeform: (and, more importantly, how does a system having coins taking the form (a,b), rather than scalar (c), not reduce to same (c) == a*b ? )
danielpbarron: yes, vector coins
danielpbarron: the quality factor decreases with each mined block
danielpbarron: that parts not eulora-esque.. yet
asciilifeform: how is this different from the old-fashioned scalar coin where the ~quantity~ decreases ?
asciilifeform: i.e. what does the vectorization actually accomplish ?
asciilifeform: as i see it, what is missing here is the knapsack per se
asciilifeform: where you have some ~reason~ to prefer high-density objects
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: and i can hardly picture the low-density 'subcoinbases' actually ever making it into a block .
mircea_popescu: o hai.
asciilifeform: ( or, what, some derp mining on a 486, can cause space inside a block to be filled ?! )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tldr - asciilifeform failed to square the circle
mircea_popescu: aww!
asciilifeform: but perhaps danielpbarron knows how!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619252 << i would say that's exactly what happens. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 17:59 trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
mircea_popescu: somehow fails to raise any serious errors, either. "o hey, turns out on examination... i do not actually exist!"
trinque: it would be polite to have a nervous breakdown at the very least
mircea_popescu: wouldn't it though.
asciilifeform: ( lelzies, 454955, 455025 , empty bloxx, just today )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619262 << "plastics" in current practice is a very different material from "plastics" in the 1970s soviet standards book understanding. it ain't no longer pvc, plexi & pp/pet. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 19:24 asciilifeform: this is kindergarten fact. but still.
mircea_popescu: much like say "composites" today is a lot more than the "glass fiber" making the better motor boats on the black sea at the period.
mircea_popescu: they're technically plastics because of the process through which they all work, but that process is no longer fixed one single organic chemistry thing, but a bevy of them.
mircea_popescu: consequently there's no promise "plastics" will behave in the intuitive way.
mircea_popescu: which is how you can have a plastic gun barrel on a gun.
asciilifeform: you can have a cardboard barrel also. for the same 1 shot.
mircea_popescu: these aren't much worse than metal.
mircea_popescu: thermosetting polymer.
asciilifeform: ( anybody try a kapton barrel ? what'd this cost..? )
mircea_popescu lolz, the glock is 65% of the market. holy shit this angloworld loves plastics.
asciilifeform: glock has ordinary steel barrel.
mircea_popescu: yes ok.
mircea_popescu: !~google vp70
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Heckler & Koch VP70 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%2526_Koch_VP70>; Hk VP70 The gun that changed it all - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0Wq5_3rkqd8>; Heckler & Koch's Historic VP70 - Tactical Life: <http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/heckler-koch-historic-vp70/>
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619276 << well you wouldn't allow someone to appropriate the value of the tx, but of the tx's context. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:03 asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
mircea_popescu: but yes, in geneeral rewarding hardship creates the problem that it is cheaper to simulate hardship than to go through it.
mircea_popescu: that's why all the efforts to help "black people" as they were understood by white people created a thin sliver of black people tuned to entertain white people atop a large mass of exceptionally disenfranchised if somewhat authentic black people.
mircea_popescu: and this also explains why you heard of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-06#1611925 but not of http://trilema.com/2011/cel-mai-adevarat-in-gangsta-rap/#selection-77.139-77.155 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-06 18:37 thestringpuller: marketing Snoop Dogg is making a fortune from. d00d is a genius at extracting $$$$ from white girls
asciilifeform: theoretically you ~could~ have a leaktight hose where hop1 takes a % of a 'node and miner fee' preallocated by tx author; hop2 takes ~his own~ % of what hop1 left on the table; and so forth. but the requisite mathematical device for protocolically encumbering a tx is afaik undiscovered.
asciilifeform: ( to cement this down for l0gz readers : what you'd need is a mechanism for pubkey-signing some material already signed by another pubkey, whereby the original signature is preserved -- not necessarily bitwise, but in the sense of remaining fully verifiable -- but the new one is not strippable off with any reasonable amount of cpu cycle )
asciilifeform: actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought. ☟︎
trinque: you can just wrap it in the relaying node's signature, and the relaying node gets whatever he demands of the fee; meanwhile miner wants the copy of txn that gives him the most fee
trinque: but I don't see what any of that benefits
asciilifeform: trinque: 2nd hop could unwrap it
asciilifeform: and first hop gets 0
asciilifeform: unless you can ~protocolically~ cement it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you'll never get the magic number right.
trinque: still no answer why this is better than me having to transmit to a mining node in the first place
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: idea is that market gets to twiddle the number, neh
trinque: in which case cost is upon me and the miners I talked to, and nobody else's shoulders
mircea_popescu: you find yourself in the ridiculous posture of trying to invent a drm that works and off the cuff.
asciilifeform: trinque talks to miners today ?
mircea_popescu: information wants to be free, bitch.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it 'wants to be free', tell me my p and q aha.
trinque: asciilifeform: what did you miss where I said "node should advertise whether he wants to mine"
trinque: this draws them into the open as you wanted
asciilifeform: trinque: go and draw a chinese miner into the open, today..?
asciilifeform: i'd like to connect dulap to one, instead of trudging through ocean of prb
trinque: your rhetorical methods are sometimes ridiculous
asciilifeform: so i'll be the 1st to tell trinque 'thanks'
mircea_popescu: anyway, this notion that you'll color bits with ownership or righteousness or whatever... it dun work irl.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phrased this way, it elementarily falls down. q was whether you could do the deed ~without~ promisetronics
trinque: asciilifeform: under this imagined scheme ~the only way~ anyone can process any transactions is if he opens an orifice to receive them
trinque: how bout you criticize *that* rather than whatever you like
asciilifeform: trinque: this is doable right now, you can comment out the mempool in trb...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619279 << i suspect the blockchain-node vs mempool-node split (3rd or so item to be jetisoned) happened like... two years in. once they got the "ligthweight" nodes or w/e bullshit ; non-verifying miner nodes et all. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:10 trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining?
asciilifeform: trinque: just don't be surprised when other nodes drop you
mircea_popescu: sounds about 2012ish
trinque: asciilifeform: yes lets switch between ideal bitcoin thread and current bitcoin thread whenever it suits
asciilifeform: trinque: say we stick to the trb-i thread. gotta specify what specifically about your concept of trbi, that would remove the incentive for miner secrecy that exists in classical bitcoin.
asciilifeform: if anything, nuking the possibility of pools (as for instance i favour) would exacerbate it.
mircea_popescu: wait, what ? how the fuck would you remove "incentive for miner secrecy".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik you couldn't.
mircea_popescu: if miner is miner, he wants to stay secret.
asciilifeform: ^
trinque sees very little chance of discussing the actual item and tires of chasing it
mircea_popescu: either his rigs don't cost money, in which case it's a proof-of-reddit coin a la doge, or else they do, in which case stfu you're not invited to the party.
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand trinque , he pictured a trbi where miners would advertise 'hi, i'ma miner, and i'd like some tx of yours'
asciilifeform: which any way i picture it, is suicidal
asciilifeform bbl; meat
mircea_popescu: kinda what the whole mempool does, reduces the wallflower problem. (irl, girls don't dare go up to boys lest other girls think them sluts, and boys don't dare go up to girls lest other boys think them losers)
trinque: it is not distinct from the present day
danielpbarron: in the staged-mining scenario, miner has incentive to be at least somewhat public because he will often find valid solutions that are not quite big enough to solve a block when used alone, but in combination with smaller pieces will work. so he wants to keep a pool of little pieces at the ready to quickly pad his big chunk
trinque: holy fuck the fog of metaphor
mircea_popescu: trinque go ahead an' cut through it, np
trinque: asciilifeform appears to be bending over backwards trying to get people paid to relay txn ☟︎
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah, the only thing is that if you actually do something like that you are better off dispensing with the notion of "block" and instead create a sort of tree for a blockchain
trinque: why am I relaying txn to 99% of people who aren't going to do a damned thing with it
trinque: rather than the nodes which care (i.e. want [to be paid to] produce a block)
trinque: and since they are engaged in transaction processing, ought to carry the full cost of doing so
mircea_popescu: (currently, from a purely cs theory / systems design perspective, bitcoin can be laughed at because its blockchain is akin to spirogira strands. most ridiculous tree known to nature.
trinque: i.e. collecting them to insert into the block
mircea_popescu: trinque ~same reason you walk down the street in view of everyone rather than just future employers and spouses.
danielpbarron: the 'block' is to keep it all timed right, so that there's still a certain amount of data stored per 10 minute interval. this is also how difficulty is calculated
trinque: I do not need other people's transactions to verify a block
trinque: they are in the block
mircea_popescu: trinque but you need either to a) talk to people who might not mine your tx ; or else b) accept living in a usg-run bitcoin world.
mircea_popescu: because there isn't a third.
trinque: how does the presence of my mempool today prevent some miner for mining whichever txn he chooses?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that is true, but ungermane. your scheme as proposed simply works better on a proper tree. timekeeping separate.
mircea_popescu: trinque i dunno that it does that.
trinque: what is it that it does?
mircea_popescu: it allows the miner plausible deniability.
trinque: do I have an interest in affording him this?
mircea_popescu: well, if you do not you get b) above in short order.
trinque: then it seems reasonable for any node operator to accept this cost of doing business
mircea_popescu: it does, on the first pass.
trinque: I can see it; while my mempool does not have anything to do with validating incoming blocks, it gives me my only means of shit-testing the rules by which miners might be filtering transactions.
mircea_popescu: for instance. there's many ways to look at it, which is usually indicative of our not understanding something more fundamental.
mircea_popescu: generally, the mempool function as go between users and nodes. this function is important.
mircea_popescu: it's somewhat amusing that history repeats itself, in that the gossip market only existed because of the interest of powerful players -- it's not like servant women managed to gossip all on their own! but not like they were likely going to get paid for it either!
mircea_popescu: today we have a vaguely similar situation, wherein node world evaporated but not entirely, perhaps in large part because all the players want to keep an eye on all the others.
mircea_popescu: i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market. ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: what promises the nodes can make are related to what their counterparties say.
mircea_popescu: in this scheme, a node would only relay a txn to another node if that other node promised it MORE than what it in turn had promised the user.
mircea_popescu: it is the format i expect the market to take once block subsidy drops enough, which is to say in 2 to 3 halvings.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/02/trump-issues-ultimatum-to-gop-obamacare-must-die-before-tax-reform/ << Qntra - Trump Issues Ultimatum To GOP: Obamacare Must Die Before Tax Reform
mircea_popescu: o hey
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the repeal or replacement ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619455 << to relay SUCCESSFULLY, trinque . (not to /dev/null) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 21:53 trinque: asciilifeform appears to be bending over backwards trying to get people paid to relay txn
asciilifeform: incidentally it'd also test trinque's 'miners out in the open' thing. miner who comes out of the curtains, could collect 100% of the fee, rather than what relays left behind
asciilifeform slowly eats l0gz
mircea_popescu: in other news, https://media.8ch.net/file_store/b2dedbb82ca691f8f645b2ce243853a6438ce7bbddb6c67d095da7104953cbc0.jpg << why do redditard dwellings ALWAYS look like the same fucking homeless shelter, cheap stuffing all over the floor etc ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol what is what, a veterinary autocastrator ?
mircea_popescu: you mean the cock thing ? nah, part of the sjw uniform.
mircea_popescu: think of it like panties, for cucks.
asciilifeform: seems like oddball masochism gear, i've never seen it outside of mircea_popescu's links..
trinque: the ongoing quest for acceptable male undergarments eh?
trinque: nowhere to be found!!11
mircea_popescu: lmao
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619482 << right now, keeping a node is -ev for almost everyone who could be doing it. only oddballs with countereconomic motivation of one kind or another (e.g., trb experimenters) , plus miners themselves, plus serious txers ( e.g., mircea_popescu ) have a desire to do it. there are not so many of these. it is rather like relying on entirely on coprophagics for your sewage disposal needs. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 22:04 mircea_popescu: i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently.
asciilifeform: dangerously fragile.
mircea_popescu: plus a few governments, plus a few etcetera.
asciilifeform: aha. and -- if you are 'civilian' -- most of these folx are decidedly NOT 'your friends'
mircea_popescu: but yes, all metaeconomic motivation. i wouldn't call it ccountereconomic. much like me treating the whores well in the 90s contrary to male ideology of the time was not countereconomic.
mircea_popescu: nobody you don;t know is your friend, wtf globalism bs is this.
asciilifeform: aha precisely
mircea_popescu: but to be clear - if you are "civilian" you shouldn't be speaking.
mircea_popescu: civilian role is polishing the silverware not judging the ceiling paintings.
asciilifeform: wasn't referring to the d00d with the cock ring, but to 'i have control of an addr with btc in it, and willing to pay the market rate fee, mine my tx' arbitrary martian.
mircea_popescu: there it gets iffy.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619312 << this is rank nonsense. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:16 asciilifeform: it ~failed to materialize. the continued existence of 0fee tx, anywhere, ever, is proof.
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of cunt, beer, tv etc given away for free every day ; doesn't make these not markets.
mircea_popescu: they're markets alright. the fact that a block subsidy covers 80% or so of the value of a block is the dispositive factor ; and it disposes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it is a market, it is 'buyer's market'
asciilifeform: (if i landed, a martian, on earth, and found that almost all beer is given out for free and with 0 strings attached - i would infer that beer is a type of industrial waste..)
asciilifeform: the way i see the empty blocks, and mass of 0fee tx, is that it resembles the old days of petro drilling , when natural gas was flared off
asciilifeform: ( bottling it was , with tech of the period, -ev )
mircea_popescu: if you drew that conclusion from that premise we'd correctly identify you as an engineer martian.
mircea_popescu: cunt's always given away "mosty for free" "with no strings attached". hurr durr, not how it works.
asciilifeform: there's a difference between 'mostly' and 'actually no strings'
mircea_popescu: mno.
mircea_popescu: and moreover, bitcoin tx is absolutely a seller-s market, definition item.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu nails it, the block subsidy makes it largely uninteresting to bother with squeezing the most tx fee from every available byte of ullage in block
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my puzzlement is re the continued existence of 0fee in conjunction with 'blocks are crowded.' can you picture a city where trains are full to bursting point, but they continue letting a third of the passengers in for free ?!
asciilifeform: or how about an airline.
mircea_popescu: how do you know they're 0 fee ?
mircea_popescu: you see a guy with a hot woman, she's sucking his cock. 0 fee ?
mircea_popescu: why, because they gotta registger their transactions with you ?
asciilifeform: point
asciilifeform: i do not know for sure. but i have send personally some 0fee tx, and -- somewhat to my surprise -- they got mined
asciilifeform: (within past yr)
asciilifeform: *have sent
asciilifeform: and i did not have to suck anything behind the curtain...
asciilifeform: now, granted, this was not an industrial-grade survey.
asciilifeform: it is possible that the planets simply aligned for me, the gods smiled, every single time.
mircea_popescu: this happens ; and that it happens proves little.
mircea_popescu: see, could you do it RIGHT NOW ?
mircea_popescu: thats the cost of market usage. i can do it when i want.
mircea_popescu: that if you wait long enough eventually an airplane will fall into your yard does not make airplanes a free product outside of the airplane market.
asciilifeform: but if you could fly anywhere for 0 money, supposing your were willing to do it on some unknown date up to month in the future -- quite a few folx would
asciilifeform: yet sane airline does not pack empty chairs with free riders.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty fxd
asciilifeform: it is -ev to have any (aside from 'loyalty points' chumps and similar)
mircea_popescu: of course it does.
mircea_popescu: there's even a name for it, i forget.
asciilifeform: discounted riders -- yes. free - not afaik
mircea_popescu: also restaurants hire, you hear me, HIRE schmucks to sit down.
mircea_popescu: and clubs pretty much MEAN "collection of hired sluts"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems more of a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618577 neh ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:17 mircea_popescu: if it were the case you had to pay 2 bux to transact in 2011, bitcoin'd have never exiosted
asciilifeform: yes, new restaurant -- has to lure folx in
asciilifeform: bitcoin however is pretty old restaurant.
mircea_popescu: well...
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619483 << funnily enough , this is what i had sketched out when i mentioned http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619409 ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 22:07 mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 21:41 asciilifeform: actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought.
asciilifeform: here is how it'd work, roughly. a miner generates rsa-signed messages , occasionally, let's call'em 'empty casks'. a cask consists of a declaration, 'i'll include a tx within N blocks, i promise, for Q btc/kByte; and oh, here's a nonce.' the casks are distributed to the next level of nodes away from the miner ;
asciilifeform: these in turn issue casks. and pass'em on downstream.
asciilifeform: at the bottom of the pyramid, a tx author requests a cask from a node, and fills it (assigns his node-and-miner fee to the caskchain specified by the hash he was given.)
asciilifeform: the mature tx resulting from this process, makes its way back upstream to the miner.
asciilifeform: when he mines it : 1) all of the participants know whether he has kept his promise; and whether each level of pyramid has kept its promise;
asciilifeform: 2 ) the miner-and-node fee is cut up according to the promised scheme.
asciilifeform: (protocolically.)
asciilifeform: to rewrite formally, a cask is a C = sig_h1(sig_h2(sig_h3(.....sig_m('i'll mine a tx for q btc/kb...'))); tx author signs, author_sig(my_tx + C)
mircea_popescu: no reason miner would make this opposable.
asciilifeform: h1 is the sig of 1st hop from miner; h2 - second; etc.
mircea_popescu: mno, miner ifnormally tells his nodes he wants txn ; much like lord of manner tells women of the house he wants a girl added.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if he wants to make promises -- they gotta be opposable
mircea_popescu: they go running the streets finding an acceptable one.
mircea_popescu: mnope.
mircea_popescu: the nodes are the oracles.
asciilifeform: the terminal sig can belong to a node, rather than a miner, if miners prove resistant to signing anything
asciilifeform: (i.e. the inner cask)
mircea_popescu: nodes live and die by their promises ; miners live and die by their mining.
mircea_popescu: way of teh world.
asciilifeform: scheme pictured above does suffer from the 'no canned tx' headache. but it does solve the 'miner eats 100% of cake, the rest -- do laundry' thing.
asciilifeform: with this algo, you can in fact market access to a miner. and n levels out.
asciilifeform: and at the same time grade nodes by degree of promise-keeping, as described by mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: maybe.
asciilifeform: i challenge the good folx here to find the lethal boojum in this algo. because it almost seems workable.
mircea_popescu: this nut, always with the doubling down.
asciilifeform: incidentally each level of the pyramid could automagically price the casks he issues.
asciilifeform: would be pretty smooth 'plane tickets' market, imho.
asciilifeform: (if there is a shortage of casks coming to me from upstream -- i raise my price for downstream. etc)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eh the boojum'll turn up. it is not given to ~anybody to invent 2 nice algos...
asciilifeform: though on second thought this algo is, from certain angle, ancient, it is how everything from plane tickets, concert tickets, gladiatorial match tickets, have always been sold
mircea_popescu: anyway. taking away the miner choice wrt to what transactions are included would be a major step forward, goes on the list.
mircea_popescu: it's almost as good as "you can't tell who sent who what"
asciilifeform: aha. let'em sell tickets. that can be resold at markup.
asciilifeform: ~binding~ tickets.
mircea_popescu: state it again.
asciilifeform: (and if a miner issues moar tickets than he has plane seats -- it becomes known)
asciilifeform: i'ma go into the mathematical pit and properly formalize the recipe.
mircea_popescu: alright.
asciilifeform: could take a day or 2.
asciilifeform: (perhaps somebody will beat me to it, also good)
mircea_popescu: this is one of those things that's not time-factored.
asciilifeform: if anvil drops on my head tonight, imho there is enough in today's log to reconstitute the recipe.