mircea_popescu: Framedragger thinking about it, the ~only correct solution is for the mp-wp maintainer to remove mysql in favour of a flatfile "db" system. then it will be properly static, or as close as its job allows.
shinohai mysql is the reason shinohai ..... has procrastinated with mp-wp
mircea_popescu: the calls are isolated, wouldn't be the end of the world to replace with a filesystem equivalent.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i see what you mean, but you can't really call it 'static' by any metric. in point of fact i'm surprised you're not grossed out over the fact that the whole thing is a large stinking pile of dynamic php. i guess the counterargument is that it *gets the job done*, very well, over many years. :) so there's that. but i'd like to ditch the 'wp' from 'mp-wp' one day. but maybe baby steps.
mircea_popescu: what is this clean great language that doesn't gross one out, i must have missed some classes / log days.
mircea_popescu: php is a hypertext preprocessor. that's what it does, websites. just like the rubber dome in your bathroom unclogs the toilet. does it disgust you ? it's a tool, you're not expected to keep it on the diner table.
mircea_popescu: anyway, re static : in context "static" denotes "how much comes from the disk as opposed as through cpuization", there's no other measure. a page stored as files with the extension .html is ~slightly~ more static than a page which is stored as files with the extension .txt in a directory structure that is their de-facto index and are then mixed together into a thing whenever a page is called.
mircea_popescu: turn it any way you want, a flat, disk-bound website IS in point of fact a "dynamic" website loaded into a de facto disk-bound database. the only difference is that you chose to stupidify the index, which is now "exposed" to the user as a band-aid measure over the fact that you failed to do anything with it.
mircea_popescu: that you go fd.com/article/comments/5/reply/ or somesuch and i go mp.com/article/ is not so much a difference as it appears.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: that's not the only difference. a 'php' site launches and runs additional process(es) to serve user requests. now i guess you could say that "it's just a detail", on the grand picture it's the same (nginx requires additional resources to serve static files), but that would be stretching it.
Framedragger: as regards language choice, yeah, i see your point, "just use the right tool". thing is, with an *actual* static site, you would not expose the language to the web, at all. the only attack surface would be that of the webserver. cf. a wordpress site which as folks say is a "web shell with blog functionality on the side" :)
Framedragger: (though i'm sure mp-wp is on the whole ~decent in terms of holes/security.)
mircea_popescu: what webserver is there that works like bitcoin, single thread ?
mircea_popescu: and the notion that you won't expose the language to the web is not equivalent to the actuality that you opt to use such a banal language nothing can be done which to your mind is equivalent to "not exposing". the man who doesn't lock his door because his chamber contains no maid is not the same thing as the man who doesn't lock his door because his maid is more danger to the youths about than they to her.
mircea_popescu: pile-of-.html-files exposes your directory structure to the world ; badly set permissions have the same effect as i dunno, mysql with an open hole.
mircea_popescu: the whole thing is kind-of spurious, not like trilema wasn't "attacked". there's even articles celebrating the puzzled wtf of the would be attacker, "wut do you mean my magic has no power here"
Framedragger: right, well-managed permissions ensure that any 'break-in' would only result in one being able to *read* some files. but i think your abstraction breaks quickly: i'm sure your php user is able to write files (file upload), even if to a single dir, and to write to db. so it's still not the same.
mircea_popescu: otherwise what you're proposing is "but hey, i'd still have root, and ssh or no ssh... it's still the same"
mircea_popescu: well everything can end up the same to the man determined it be so.
Framedragger: i can't see how i can be convinced that launching script-specific php processes is ~same as a webserver allocating a standardised additional unit of its resources (memory / thread etc.)
mircea_popescu: in your flat scheme, the words "Trilema - a blog by mircea_popescu " would appear... 72k times!
mircea_popescu: some kind of index. otherwise you end up repeating shit to high heavens for no reason, and your computer looks more like an abacus.
Framedragger: well, the compression-decompression process is so to speak serialised / offloaded to an fs. not a bad thing!
Framedragger: that being said, my point would work better if trilema had been having performance issues... which it ain't.
mircea_popescu: what is the cogent difference between these symbols, "script-specific php processes" and "a standardised additional unit of its resources" ?
Framedragger: no need to compress, what i meant by compression is that an index is sorta-doing that. storing flat files on fs is basically 'flattening' the process over space and time.
mircea_popescu: over space, yes. over time - not necessarily. that is the rub here.
Framedragger: first off, the former has a less clear attack surface, may depend on script in question, etc. second off, may scale not as well (no this is not the same as kiddie complaining that an rdbms is "not web scale").
mircea_popescu: fx = 2x can be flattened into (1, 2), (2, 4), (3, 6) etc. this clearly flattens it in space, but just as clearly fucks up the time. now you have to seek.
mircea_popescu: and i'll compute 2 * maxint/2 faster than you'll seek maxint/2
Framedragger: ...that's why it's great to host this on a disk with great random access times.
mircea_popescu: and this fundamental problem holds. flat is not necessarily faster.
Framedragger: well, you'd like that "compute faster" line to be true, but it ain't.
mircea_popescu: it's certainly and always larger. but whether it's faster is a harder problem.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger imagine you have a 64 bit maxint stored as binary tree (provedly - fastest) and now you seek... how many nodes ?
Framedragger: right, basically i'm putting a lot of trust into fs, fundamentally. hence disagreement - fair enough. (to summarise.)
mircea_popescu: (and no, any other storage scheme is cheating -- you're trying to use my f(x) = 2x without admitting it.)
mircea_popescu: neways ; i shall be back to town. anyone wanting to argue the above -- in a few hours.
Framedragger: btw, if you store 2**64 nodes in a (balanced) binary tree, wouldn't the "number of seeks" be ~64? i suppose that doesn't look too pretty, but considering that an ssd's seek time is ~0.1ms... not that these numbers are rigorous or anything.
trinque: as always with tools, there is not a one-size-fits-all rule to be dumbly applied
trinque: if the thing benefits from caching, cache
Framedragger: (just for posterity, other metrics say that consumer ssds seek average may be ~3ms.)
☟︎ trinque: if you're sitting there saying "huh, now my writes take a year because I have to update sidebar comments on every page I ever wrote"
trinque: well, drop your caching scheme!
trinque: Framedragger: oh also, take a look at the history of exploits against python sometime.
trinque: all scripting languages written in C are about as syphilitic
trinque: PHP was just the most popular of them
Framedragger: trinque: point taken. :) (i'll only repeat one thing here: in a 'proper static site' setup, one is *not* exposing vulns of a scripting language to the web. only those of the webserver.)
trinque: sure. behold wot.deedbot.org
trinque: Framedragger: though actually I don't buy it
trinque: if your user input is run through your scripting language, how exactly have you changed things in regards to attack surface?
Framedragger: i mean, i have in mind an 'actually properly configured static site'. maybe it's a nonexistent spherical cow in vacuum, sure.
trinque: so my
http requests don't run through it; something does
trinque: maybe narrower, sure, but don't treat it like it's safe
Framedragger: well, at least your user input is segregated into two 'containers': 1. GET requests for static files; and 2. user comments - processed by some specific script, separate from the rest. but yeah, this isn't exactly amazing innovation, i agree.
Framedragger: (also re. g'morning, just had bacon for late brunch, such satiation, but also sleepiness. more coffee it is...)
mircea_popescu: 64 SEEKS. thousands of asm lines. all i do is a mult. one.
mircea_popescu: look-up table has its niche. it isn;t the universal solution of all computing.
Framedragger: i wonder how well a typical hashtable with 2**64 elements work in practice, tho. where would store its elements?
mircea_popescu: and in other news, they were going to open the school year today, so they went on strike instead. soberania! haymasfuturo!
trinque: the teachers or students? or can they be discerned?
a111: Logged on 2015-07-04 03:18 asciilifeform: so far i'm utterly failing to even get 'codeviz' to build.
trinque: I've been slogging through the thing reading the paths for acquiring and validating blocks, and my god, must have map.
trinque: asciilifeform: lots of paring down of output, svg nodes shall be clickable links, only showing to depth 3 on any given page
trinque: not unlike what's on the wot browser
mircea_popescu: trinque the students are retarded to the point of abrutissement.
Framedragger: phuctor is streamlined computer optimisation service.
mircea_popescu: one increment per 4.7 cycles. they really massaged the shit out of it
mircea_popescu: the guys did actually splendid work, read the paper, worth it.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: fig 7 directly what you'd expect based on the competent discussion of "What is a timer"
trinque: we would - I'm sure - be shocked to find that the top secret exploit is the damned rebranded firefox
trinque: aside the fact that tor doesn't work
ben_vulpes: in more lcs gold:
http://archive.is/XcC3N << not only are the damned things made of paper and disintegrate as soon as you drop them in the water, but the amount of money that the usg.navy has burnt on them is actually so embarrassing as to be worth a classification fight
ben_vulpes: also something something maersk and ibm cockchain tekmologies
trinque: asciilifeform: grunts that did this probably don't get the good toys
trinque: hey man metaNSA is your fanfic not mine
trinque: but yes, they don't want to "disclose" because of the shriveled cock
Framedragger: reminds me, i think i'm still running one tor exit lol. mebbe time to redirect resources
Framedragger: (small virtual machine so wouldn't be too useful for traffic analysis, not much traffic)
Framedragger: sure. well, tor had been rather useful to me before, i took from it more than it's taken from me, so at least there's that. :)
Framedragger: (not implying that there's much worth for any noob to start running a tor node *now*.)
mircea_popescu: that dude has to be the king of imbeciles to STAY IN THE US
mircea_popescu: which nevertheless he will do, as per alf's "there's no shortage of usg cowsies who WISH to be such."
mircea_popescu: dude fucks some kids, usg files suit on the expectation that kidfucker is going to be so fucking impressed with them caring he'll sign anything they want. when this expectation fails to materialize, usg asks judge to roll back time, "really for keepsies never happensies", judge agrees, on the rationale that maybe we fuck him later. dude... sticks around.
mircea_popescu has participated in this sort of "home invasion" where one girl got fucked, the other one "are you going to fuck me too ?" "maybe tomorrow". on the morrow, dilligent, awaiting her turn...
mircea_popescu: "breaking news : so very importuned were the damsels by that fabled rod, they made an appointment to be visited again next week."
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1277.33, vol: 3951.43467663 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1255.001, vol: 3727.24823 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1277.9, vol: 9123.69593111 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1203.5, vol: 3275.01000000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1276.68, vol: 1065.66551472 | Volume-weighted last average: 1262.17079525
trinque: how do they expect me to watch gender studies courses on how to properly sit on my hands?
jurov: i have tried mit ocw. big disappointment, whatever subject I tried, material was utterly incomplete and patchy
trinque: you're doing it all wrong.
trinque: you're supposed to click through them whenever they get linked on reddit, then you put "autodidact" in your twitter profile
trinque: I... refuse to answer that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform VIDEO lectures / podcasts are entirely fucking useless for any academic purpose, as i'm sure you know.
mircea_popescu: pretty much the only topic on which video works is girl fucking. and even there -- stills are preferable.
mircea_popescu: yes, technical instruction works best in the manner of monkey see monkey do
mircea_popescu: we were discussing the needs of people not of the fucking orc.
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit. there's a woman on her knees polishing my floor as we speak. you propose her trade is academic also ?
mircea_popescu: because yes, i'm sure she learned by watching another interchangeable item just like her.
mircea_popescu: no please, video feed of some dork reading for me, i'm fucking george over here.
mircea_popescu: academics is the exclusive domain of the written form. if one can not convey in that manner, one is entirely inadherent to any sort of academic life.
mircea_popescu: in fact -- if ANY professor is better through video than writing, and i don't mean better overall - if he is better in any one definite way, then THEREFORE that person is not a professor but a hunting dog.
mircea_popescu: if writing is not your strongest asset, you are not an academic and stick to the stage, doing whatever parlor tricks.
mircea_popescu: and there's nothing wrong with women fucking, nor with the actress, cnc miller's or floor washer's art. heck, god knows i've had my private female property engage in all of those. but it sure as fuck ain't academic, forgetaboutit.
mircea_popescu: or how do you call it in english, the colorful byproduct.
mircea_popescu: nah, steel will make these pretty colorful blue-to-yelloy bands
mircea_popescu: and so the swarf was basically testimony of uneven work hardening.
mircea_popescu: kinda why she ended up doing herself, normal people (tm) have other priorities than making the swarf pretty.