log
177 entries in 0.499s
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 18:04 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_ivory_pinside.jpg
mircea_popescu: is the hope that http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/xray/ivory/iron_ivory_die_large.jpg item is not merely noise ?
feedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3073 << Loper OS -- X-Ray Microscopy of Symbolics Ivory CPUs.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 16:26 phf: asciilifeform: before you agree to a decap, give me some more time to get you the docs, maybe they'll be enough to get things going. i'd hate to lose an ivory to get some pretty but useless pictures, i'd rather it fry on a breadboard in the process of directed discovery
a111: Logged on 2018-12-25 23:02 asciilifeform: i'ma share a pair of example inputs: http://www.nosuchlabs.com/pub/bolix/pic/ivory_bottom_a_super.jpg http://www.nosuchlabs.com/pub/bolix/pic/ivory_bottom_b_super.jpg (warning: 300MB! each!) .
a111: Logged on 2018-12-26 00:25 asciilifeform: z80 of course not only costs fiddycents, but ~still made~ , and so has been photographed errywhere, prolly even in zimbabwe. whereas there's maybe 50 'ivory' remaining total.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-25 23:19 amberglint: btw, I was considering asking this microscopist if he wants to help you with the Ivory micrograph, but after the last attempt I'm not sure if it's a good idea
asciilifeform: z80 of course not only costs fiddycents, but ~still made~ , and so has been photographed errywhere, prolly even in zimbabwe. whereas there's maybe 50 'ivory' remaining total.
asciilifeform: density of 'ivory' is around 4x that of z80.
asciilifeform: 'ivory' aint much transistorwise by current-day measures, but at ~370,000 is slightly moar than its contemporary i386, and defo bigger than anyffing afaik that amateurs anywhere reversed to date.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-25 23:19 amberglint: btw, I was considering asking this microscopist if he wants to help you with the Ivory micrograph, but after the last attempt I'm not sure if it's a good idea
amberglint: btw, I was considering asking this microscopist if he wants to help you with the Ivory micrograph, but after the last attempt I'm not sure if it's a good idea
asciilifeform: ( and , for completeness, a second, http://www.nosuchlabs.com/pub/bolix/pic/ivory_top_a_super.jpg , http://www.nosuchlabs.com/pub/bolix/pic/ivory_top_b_super.jpg , whynot . again ~300MB ea.! )
asciilifeform: i'ma share a pair of example inputs: http://www.nosuchlabs.com/pub/bolix/pic/ivory_bottom_a_super.jpg http://www.nosuchlabs.com/pub/bolix/pic/ivory_bottom_b_super.jpg (warning: 300MB! each!) .
phf: _3600_ _pre-ivory days_
phf: there's no "docs", it's not some kind of mother lode of all things bolix. fwiw i went into as excited and with the same expectations you're imagining right now. there was a set of printed papers that primarily existed in pre-ivory days. they are mostly related to e.g. mechanical layout of the boards (the bulk of stuff was e.g. machining parameters of motherboards and cases, something i didn't even touch)
asciilifeform: phf: so what was it, you promised 'i'ma only leak the bits re ivory' ?
asciilifeform: 'sapper errs 1ce', could take another 10y to get a 2nd 'ivory' if i kill this one.
phf: there are 3600 era PAL sources in a form of scans, there might be some overlap between those and ivory. i doubt that's the case, but it's worth investigating
a111: Logged on 2018-12-15 00:35 asciilifeform: incidentally, i had potentially interesting notion: a modern-day digicam ccd, of e.g. 25 'megapixel', is just about dense enuff that one could take a meaningful xray of the ivory die, if one could be found that responds to xray..
asciilifeform: incidentally, i had potentially interesting notion: a modern-day digicam ccd, of e.g. 25 'megapixel', is just about dense enuff that one could take a meaningful xray of the ivory die, if one could be found that responds to xray..
asciilifeform: phf: i am thinking, instead of burning time on emulating 'nubus' and ancient crapple, when working (from mac-side pov) clone exists i'ma drive it directly via onboard ft2232hl or similar ( the mac-side src , i've had for yrs, and it's quite straightforward re what is done to the card; once i know what specifically happens on the card when nubus regs are written, may as well do it from pc directly to/from the ivory cpu via usb-to-5v-f
phf: you know if ivory on macivory actually replaceable, the way it is on xl?
asciilifeform: pretty sure there's custom bolix ic other than ivory in xl
a111: Logged on 2018-10-19 01:04 asciilifeform: amberglint: when i went to his house 10y ago, offered to him to make fpga-ized 'ivory' , 'pro bono', if he'd only cough up with what. answr was approx 'can't , unless my master permits, and he wouldn't'
phf: re ivory i think we had a thread about macivory being much easier to reverse, since it's all isolated, but you will still have to spend time (re?)learning the gnarly details of apple bus, and whatever adhoc protocol is used to communicate with host. going by an xl might not be a worse option
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 1 day, 9 hours, and 1 minute ago: <asciilifeform> loox like dks is selling another! 'ivory' on lulzbay >> https://archive.is/Bkm8E
asciilifeform: 'ivory' board, however ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875835 ) is moar or less exactly the correct item, it's a minimal set of support logic for the chip, and piggybacks on ancient 1980s crapple ( box that's been reversed nine ways to pluto and 100% emulatable today ) for i/o ☝︎
asciilifeform: pretty painful proposition, to pick up a $5k board simply to read off the GALs and xray the pcb. but unless somebody has one to lend for the purpose, i dun see how that dig will ever move beyond 'i have these here 2 ic's' without access to orig ivory pcb.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 16:26 phf: asciilifeform: before you agree to a decap, give me some more time to get you the docs, maybe they'll be enough to get things going. i'd hate to lose an ivory to get some pretty but useless pictures, i'd rather it fry on a breadboard in the process of directed discovery
a111: Logged on 2018-12-03 16:48 asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf loox like dks is selling another! 'ivory' on lulzbay >> https://archive.is/Bkm8E
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf loox like dks is selling another! 'ivory' on lulzbay >> https://archive.is/Bkm8E
asciilifeform: that very 'ns' which amberglint cracked, and on which 'ivory' was baked, was 20k loc !!
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 18:23 amberglint: I found a couple more bits about the Ivory https://i.imgur.com/m5HvPHA.png https://i.imgur.com/QEzR2po.png
asciilifeform: all that presently exists in the wild is 1) small number of actual 'ivory' machines/cards, where could put cloned ic 2) the software/os stack
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he does : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_ivory.jpg object dun look removable, but rather like it was inserted from other end
asciilifeform: 'Figure 24 show some statistics about Ivory. The size of the chip was about a centimeter-and-a-half on a side in the earliest version which was done using 2-micron CMOS technology. The first commercial version will be done in a 1.6 micron process and will be about a centimeter on a side, as is the TI chip. This makes it a very large, (but not impossibly large), chip to fabricate. There are about 255,000 actual transistors on the die.
asciilifeform: 'It is of tiie same complexity as an Intel 80386 or a Motorola 68030. Figure 21 is a photomicrograph of the chip (chip people always seem to need to show their chip pictures). The Ivory chip is more or less divided into three horizontal slices; the top is the datapath and stack cache, the middle is the control system, and the bottom is the memory interface. In the middle of the control system is a very large microstore, again compara
amberglint: I found a couple more bits about the Ivory https://i.imgur.com/m5HvPHA.png https://i.imgur.com/QEzR2po.png
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_ivory_pinside.jpg
asciilifeform: >> http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_ivory.jpg << subj
asciilifeform: 'ivory' is somewhat unique case, imho, i dun expect to ever run across another 1980s item that even begins to merit this treatment.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875700 << really, a lot cheaper to make a decapper than to make another ivory. so i rather hope he does lose interest, if he's the sort of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-04#1839459 retard. ☝︎☝︎
asciilifeform was never able to find a high-res photo of ivory-3. perhaps phf has ?
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/jvkUK << photo of ivory-2 . appears to contain 1 rom, prolly no moar than a 32kB, going by the pin count.
asciilifeform: phf: tho imho ideally, we'd still get a decap of #2 after #1 is happily in a ersatz-ivory board and booting the full archaeological soft stack
phf: asciilifeform: before you agree to a decap, give me some more time to get you the docs, maybe they'll be enough to get things going. i'd hate to lose an ivory to get some pretty but useless pictures, i'd rather it fry on a breadboard in the process of directed discovery
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz -- decapping, even if done perfectly, is irreversible process, we dun know how many layers even in ivory, and to take pic of n+1st layer gotta dissolve the n-th... )
amberglint: asciilifeform: I found someone who can decap your Ivory: http://www.seanriddle.com/decap.html
phf: ivory is basically part of symbolics's digital age, and i don't know of the existence of e.g. somebody's home folder that you just need to but on the right machine, and you can bring up the "rebuild the ivory from first principles" workspace
phf: ivory, and i said "near everything"
asciilifeform: i thought it was specifically re ivory
phf: oh yeah, i've meditated on this problem (even given that some things, e.g. pal truth tables are available), unfortunately i suspect that ~~everything related to ivory is lost. (possibly the mit guy has a copy, but that's a dead end sealed shut. will have to wait for the estate sale and such)
asciilifeform: literally erry other ic on the 'ivory 3' board is stock ( save possibly for a GAL or 2 )
asciilifeform: i wouldn't consider ever to put floatism in a new design, but for compat with the vintage soft one would need it ( fortunately unlike 'ivory' the weitek is documented to death, i even have a copy of the datashit from ancient ru stash )
asciilifeform: even ivory had a buncha similar ugly, iirc it still used external weitek thing (same as in yours and mine 486) for arithmetics
phf: you overestimate the loot :> i have a lot of 3600 shit, but almost nothing on ivory. i have a handful of relevant documents though, that i can needle out
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 2 days, 2 hours, and 23 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> in bolix lulz : loox like dks relisted that 'ivory' for 3rd time nao... apparently not so many eager-worth-of-$5k archaeologists any moar
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf in bolix lulz : loox like dks relisted that 'ivory' for 3rd time nao... apparently not so many eager-worth-of-$5k archaeologists any moar
asciilifeform: but yes, i'm not esp surprised that the derps 'working' on 3600. given as 1) 'ivory' needs ~20-50 k $ in either chinese microscopist, or nixon's burglars , take yer pick 2) 3600 is massive forest of idjit hackolade, which these people seem to ~like~, the way scarab luvvs shit
amberglint: the people who have the biggest stash of Ivory hardware are busy writing their own emulator of the older 3600 machines right now, the last time I checked
asciilifeform: amberglint: iirc he found pinouts. not crown jewels, tho could be of use in ~very slowly~ getting sumthing useful from the 2 'ivory' crystals i traded a 3620 for
amberglint: I was about to ask phf about his Ivory-related efforts, but checked the logs again just now and found that asciilifeform already did it two days ago, which I overlooked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862616 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-19 01:04 asciilifeform: amberglint: when i went to his house 10y ago, offered to him to make fpga-ized 'ivory' , 'pro bono', if he'd only cough up with what. answr was approx 'can't , unless my master permits, and he wouldn't'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope, tho possibly phf might , he appeared during prev bolix/ivory thread
asciilifeform: amberglint: when i went to his house 10y ago, offered to him to make fpga-ized 'ivory' , 'pro bono', if he'd only cough up with what. answr was approx 'can't , unless my master permits, and he wouldn't'
amberglint: Peter Paine has a huge pile of Symbolics tapes which he jealously guards from other bolixologists, I wonder if it has the source of Ivory
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 03:10 asciilifeform: 1) the NS source for the last 'ivory'.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 22:45 amberglint: btw, one of Ivory and NS designers, Neil Weste, wrote his own schoolbook: http://pages.hmc.edu/harris/cmosvlsi/4e/index.html
asciilifeform: i suppose ns pill will come in handy if anybody ever unearths the ivory src
asciilifeform: what i wanted re ns, is a) the 'ivory' src b) src for ns itself, to pillage the algos
asciilifeform: phf: in other lulz, yet another ivory on lulzbay
asciilifeform: i recall reading once about an american 'sinologist' type who started by collecting the pipes ( they were often quite ornate, ivory, rhino, exotic woods ) and ended up... reconstructing actual opium den, somewhere
amberglint: asciilifeform: I have a pdf somewhere, a quick look didn't notice anything Ivory-specific
amberglint: btw, one of Ivory and NS designers, Neil Weste, wrote his own schoolbook: http://pages.hmc.edu/harris/cmosvlsi/4e/index.html
fromloper: Ivory still has mc68k?
asciilifeform: and iirc phf has a working ivory -- worth trying there also
asciilifeform: somebody , maybe same old man, has a bookcase full of typewritten design apocrypha, memoes, etc. from ivory group. he ain't sharing either.
asciilifeform: think, somebody, somewhere, has the source code to ns. and the ns netlist , with comments, to the ivory.
asciilifeform: i do not have, nor ever had, a working 'ivory' of any description.
fromloper: asciilifeform: if I remember, you wanted to hook this intact chip to some emulation of Ivory's life support
asciilifeform: fromloper: i only have two 'ivory' chips, and ideally would like to leave one intact , for active test . iirc phf also has 2 to use.
asciilifeform: fromloper: that's where it stopped. i do not have 25k usd to use on ivory die photo.
fromloper: it's more complete than the previously published documents on the Ivory
mircea_popescu: and wtf ivory bunks you got there. chicago man can't jump ?!
a111: 90 results for "ivory", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ivory
asciilifeform: !#s ivory
fromloper: this seems to be Symbolics' internal docs for the Ivory. are they sufficient to develop a clone? I've tried to find previous discussions of this particular subset of docs in the logs but didn't find anything.
asciilifeform: meeeaanwhile in failed experiments, asciilifeform tried to take an xray of the bolix-ivory die, so as to get moar realistic microscopy quote at some point. method : ra-226 capsule (commercial geiger test src), b&w 'polaroid' film. weakness turns out to be the latter : when developed using rolling pin, fixer pouch bursts, and result is liquishit
mircea_popescu: binturds are NOT unapproachable. they are very much as approachable as, eg, reversing ivory/bolix software. not necesarily as perfumed, but be that as it may.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:45 phf: it's funny that 36xx series is basically an improved cadr. ivory on the other hand? literally scheme86: they poached both the main guy who worked on the cpu ~and the entire toolset~. ivory was still designed on CADR (rather than smbx), because that's where scheme team designed theirs
mircea_popescu: and thereby, an ivory on every desk not a fucking windows.
phf: it's funny that 36xx series is basically an improved cadr. ivory on the other hand? literally scheme86: they poached both the main guy who worked on the cpu ~and the entire toolset~. ivory was still designed on CADR (rather than smbx), because that's where scheme team designed theirs
asciilifeform: fwiw the 3600 series ( pre-ivory ) were 36b
asciilifeform: 'Kalman Reti worked for Symbolics from 1982 through 1992, mostly on VLSI tools for Ivory but also writing low-level device support (e.g. a LMFS recovery utility, R/W optical drive support, LZW compressor, etc.) The last few years of that were spent doing customer consulting. After being laid off when Symbolics went into chapter 11, Kalman worked for Apple in Cambridge, first on MCL and later, after MCL was sold to Digitool, on Dylan.
asciilifeform: iirc he is the orig author of the ersatz ivory emulator
apeloyee: do you like the 'ivory' architecture so much?
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 14:55 asciilifeform: in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd.
asciilifeform: btw phf seems like ivory not happenin' any time soon ( see thread http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737657 ) . ☝︎
asciilifeform: in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd.