BingoBoingo: In other news, odometer on my meat just rolled over
mircea_popescu: btw : Franco is presently interned << interned means someone's in jail. interred means someone's in the earth.
BingoBoingo: I'll keep the tin women hasn't been meme'd hard enough in mind in the future
mircea_popescu: maybe just link it ; but even so i'm nopt sure what "uch offers and promises none of these cities would abide the tin woman passing his dick pic around to all her friends that aren't him" means.
mircea_popescu: it's been 50 years, by now it's just some specially-designated earth.
a111: Logged on 2014-01-16 04:40 asciilifeform: "Sewers caused all our troubles. The masses of this country are not like your Americans, nor even like the British. They are slave stock. They are good for nothing but slaves and only when they are used as slaves are they happy. But we, the decent people, made the mistake of giving them modern housing in the cities where we have our factories. We put sewers in these cities, sewers which extend right down to the
mircea_popescu: imo franco very much like maduro. i dunno if you've looked at dood much, he's 100% ranchero guy, would be way the fuck happier raising cattle, maybe at the most driving a truck. but he's stuck with these idiots.
a111: Logged on 2014-02-19 15:51 asciilifeform: brother and i played this on our 'Iskra' (xt clone) and combed three different dictionaries to learn what the fuck an osha is
diana_coman: bvt, interesting; is that gcc5-specific though?
bvt: i don't think it gcc5-specific, the patch against this problem that i've seen was written for gcc 4.8
diana_coman: hmm, now one wonders if the patch made it into gcc 4.9 or not
mircea_popescu: (as reported by diddled buyers of biotexcom organization of reproductive medicine)
mircea_popescu: bvt "Before going into the detail" << that "detail" never takes an article, either definite or indefinite, for some reason to do with english being weird.
mircea_popescu: ie, if it makes it 100% less probable, "disappear entirely", then it's maybe the same thing ? and if not... could actually be two separate issues ?
bvt: it goes from crashing once in 3-5 runs to crashing once in approx 1000; however i've also seen deadlocks, which may be worse stuff to deal with than an honest crash.
mircea_popescu: there are in fact two different issues there, aren't there.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 00:32 mircea_popescu: "The issue is that the code generated for __builtin_longjmp reads a value for x29 (the frame pointer) from the jmp_buf, but the code generated for __builtin_setjmp doesn't actually write x29 to the jmp_buf, leading to corruption of x29 when a longjmp occurs.
bvt: maybe there are two similar issues that are both 'cured' by switching to dynamic linking, but currently i don't think so. i'm using zcx runtime for these tests.
mircea_popescu: around gcc5 times (early 2016) binutils were verschlimmbessert with support of new relocations <<< aaahahahahaha.
mircea_popescu: bvt would you say "they were seriously improved" or "gravely improved" ?
bvt: improved beyond repair?
mircea_popescu: it's fucking beautiful. ^ is why german kicks so much ass, there's just no fucking shortage of poetry in it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform diana_coman can either of you package a bin for his bootstrap privately ?
mircea_popescu: no need to sign it, just encrypt it to him, so he's not stuck going to spamforge.barf/virusplox.htm.php
deedbot: mircea_popescu has not rated bvt.
mircea_popescu: it's such a fucking pleasure to get up in the morning and get to the logs...
diana_coman: I also tend to remember asciilifeform had at some point a signed build; anyway, if it's still needed I can pack ave1's gnat, yes; possibly he'd need both the "static-only" (i.e. latest version) and some previous version
bvt: static version should be fine. then would also try it on cuntoo (have it running, the genesis signature still does not match).
mircea_popescu: bvt dump the dir for trinque anyway, maybe it helps him. nobody suffered from too much data yet.
mircea_popescu: open source versioning system : verschlimmbessert, verfluchtbessert...
mircea_popescu: "/* ??? Glibc has for a while now exported __register_frame_info and __deregister_frame_info. If we call __register_frame_info_bases from crtbegin (wherein it is declared weak), and this object does not get pulled from libgcc.a for other reasons, then the invocation of __deregister_frame_info will be resolved from glibc. Since the registration did not happen there, we'll die. Therefore, declare a new deregistration entry poi
mircea_popescu: nt that does the exact same thing, but will resolve to the same library as implements __register_frame_info_bases. */
a111: Logged on 2018-05-15 21:38 asciilifeform: ok, apol. for log clutter :
mircea_popescu: which doesn't seem right to me, either, but it might be built by induction from actual datasets, nfi.
mircea_popescu: i also find caps always truthier if you have log in there somewhere!
bvt: thanks asciilifeform, downloading
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: "curio cabinet" approx. but kunst is art, reminded me of teh whole thing, because guess what ? we all grew up with this idea foss/gcc/glibc/whatever "magic inside!!!"
mircea_popescu: coincidentally : is anyone from the adacore/gnat/gnarl/whatever days still breathing even ? or 100% bolix situation, "documents at warehouse, i am machinist in charge" ?
mircea_popescu: and in likbez-mp : can anyone explain "weak symbols" as a concept to me without making it sound like a hack ?
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
mircea_popescu: "but the mechanism for symbol clashing exists for a reason"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why not do it properly then, get rid of symbol clashing as a concept altogether, let everything be the last thing it was and be done with it.
mircea_popescu: "socialism doesn't do things properly, it's against the religion. errything must be sorta-halvsies and then
forgiven. "
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what about c makes you not know wtf you're linking ?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> maybe just link it ; but even so i'm nopt sure what "uch offers and promises none of these cities would abide the tin woman passing his dick pic around to all her friends that aren't him" means. << ties into the second archive link where... gossip rags are trying to monetize his sexts
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so basically it all comes down to a gns absence issue ?
mircea_popescu: if they had fully qualified descriptors instead of "filename" it'd be all rosy ?
mircea_popescu: (note that the tempting "obvious" approach -- describe foo then!!! -- is not only fucking broken, but broken in the exact way minsky wasted life trying to produce. there can not be ~description~, the only way to induce meaning in the machine is through filiation. v-produced foo has a very strict "wtf is it ??" answer associated, but also very fine and not structure-driven.)
mircea_popescu: in fact, there's a long line of illustrious ancestors who, having spotted this problem (wtf is foo ?!) attempted to solve it ~the very wrong way~, ie, by definition. hence not just ai winter, but microscopically naggum's sgi misadventures and so on.
mircea_popescu: you can not in fact define symbols after the fact (and i don't mean just the elf technical term -- all symbols). the only way to define a symbol is by its parents.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you see it as an improvement because you perceive it forces their hands down the right path, whether they want to or not. it's a rapeprovement.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ah right, there was all that huh. american industries.
mircea_popescu: well my dear alfie... you build it and see if it crashes. when it stopped crashing, you either got rid of all off-by-ones
mircea_popescu: there's programmers, and then there's fuzzgamers. which are more like gamers than grammers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: which it does not, when's the last time you had 1mn. wtf is all this tim's wondermachines steampunk idiocy for ? can just sort a fucking list
mircea_popescu: but as a factual matter -- object files end up a few mb, and they're not 100% symbol by mass. you jsut can not have this many.
mircea_popescu: so why all this bs, again ? just so nobody has to know what they;'re doing ?
mircea_popescu: gcc_assert (sizeof (const fde *) == sizeof (const fde **));
mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu
☟︎ mircea_popescu: btw, you ever encountered "Bărbaţii-s făcuţi din carne, femeile - din oţel. Ar fi trebuit să fie invers, dar Dumnezeu mai greşeşte şi el...
mircea_popescu: Femeile zic că-s din carne, bărbaţii că-s din oţel, şi de-aia e noaptea-ntuneric şi viaţa e un hotel..." ro poem ?
mircea_popescu: (for completeness, approx - "men are of flesh, women, of steel. it shoul've been the other way around, but god's hunchback and not above mistakes ; women say they're flesh, men claim to be steel -- which is why it's dark at night and life a hotel"
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 01:57 asciilifeform: i suppose will also work a++ for asciilifeform's peine forte et dure!11
mircea_popescu: diana_coman is there some way to count the linker objects next time you compile say eulora ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I'm not aware of anything that actually does that reliably
mircea_popescu: diana_coman myeah. i guess it'd take a patch on gcc, which is too much hassle atm.
mircea_popescu: "/* The count field we have in the main struct object is somewhat limited, but should suffice for virtually all cases. If the counted value doesn't fit, re-write a zero. The worst that happens is that we re-count next time -- admittedly non-trivial in that this implies some 2M fdes, but at least we function. */"
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see, i got horse's mouth number instead : ~2mn. ie, i was right! HA-HA!
mircea_popescu: anyway. seems gcc has a baked-in "max 2097152 symbols"
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
mircea_popescu: it's per-instance-of-the-weirdo-optimized-two-head-horse-with-six-earhooves sorting mechanism above runs.
mircea_popescu: ie, the thing they "optimized" into insanity never actually has to sort more than mn-level items, ie, no ufcking need to be made out of boats floating on billiard table
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them.
mircea_popescu: they themselves admit 2mn is an upper bound, BY WHICH TOKEN they themselves admit the complification was spurious.
mircea_popescu: well, either that or they o(N) + n log n for some values of N, n.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2015-04-29 13:25 mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a face reflected, but it's my ex girl
mircea_popescu: are you discussing the specific case of grep there ? because i do believe it's a sound tradeoff.
mircea_popescu: but i do know what's typical in at least some cases. which is why my kitchen doesn't have a fast food counter.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:49 asciilifeform: whore in some ways has better working condition -- at least she knows will not have to fuck tyrannosaur.
mircea_popescu: you can't go around simply solving the most general case of everything. precisely because such a thing as closed system exists.
mircea_popescu: what, i get the luxury of a door lock but programming environment must take all comers ?
mircea_popescu: " /* Take care to ignore link-once functions that were removed. In these cases, the function address will be NULL, but if the encoding is smaller than a pointer a true NULL may not be representable. Assume 0 in the representable bits is NULL. */"
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would you use encodings SMALLER than the bus width ?!
mircea_popescu: i mean, FB and 00 are equally likely to be fragment of null pointer.
mircea_popescu: what "ask the fellows to patch gcc, fix this one error we have". wtf, how do i ask this ?!
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:14 mircea_popescu: no.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:03 mircea_popescu: dude stop faking it, seriously. you, taaki and his sister showed up. nobody cares, fo reals.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:03 nefario: stallman seemed like he was going to cry
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 Diablo-D3: why the fuck did rms even show up
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 mircea_popescu: Diablo-D3 because by now not that many people can be bothered to invite him anywhere.
mircea_popescu: and the entirely fucktarded morons go about talking of this same schmuck in terms of some heroism or other, truly there's nothing more disgusting extant or imaginable than "people themselves" with their "democratically elected options" and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: amir taaki is a dude who was trying to pimp his underage sister ten years ago. that's all, what the fuck already.
mircea_popescu: aanyways, thanks to bvt 's reading material i am well spooked. wtf do we even do, now ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:36 asciilifeform: the avionics people seem to use it, but they (near as i was able to learn) dun kill tasks at all, and regard any detected wedge as a
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895456 condition
mircea_popescu: zcx doesn't work, sjlj is broken and glibc is beyond salvation.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the issue is to come up with a linking scheme we can actually use.
mircea_popescu: "house only explodes when you turn on water faucet" is not an answer here.
mircea_popescu: cute, but not useful. we gotta have a programming environment, not a programming cardboard.
mircea_popescu: we're kinda discovering by doing here. but user-controls-machine is certainly in there.
mircea_popescu: i intend to approach hardware breakage at hardware level.
mircea_popescu: something like "keep two of everything and throw out anything that behaves in any way contrary to your illusion no matter what happens".
mircea_popescu: i find it works fine with people ; and it'll work doubleplusfine with hardware. let it adapt to my needs or die.
mircea_popescu: s.mg is perfectly willing to eventually erect torture chamber where shamed boxes ritualistically destroyed for their sins.
mircea_popescu: so leaving hardware alone, "zombie thread because northbridge went south" etc -- we still need a linking scheme that works.
mircea_popescu: in any case, this is a major decision / inflexion point, and we truly need all hands on deck for this, i'm not equipped with the right chicken darts to throw at guts / read feathers thereof.
mircea_popescu: so is basically the idea what we want is to get sjlj to work on musl for ada proggies ? or what ?
mircea_popescu: some time to look at things and consider matters will be needed ; but i specifically want to hear something from asciilifeform ave1 bvt diana_coman phf spyked trinque
☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎ a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 17:47 mircea_popescu: but anyway : NO NEW WORK ON SHA PLOX. USE KECCAK.
a111: Logged on 2015-04-29 16:28 mod6: so libnss is dynamically compiled and built/linked to glibc, and can not be avoided?
a111: Logged on 2015-04-29 16:41 mircea_popescu: you can't go "oh i don't use libnss anyway". you probably are.
a111: Logged on 2015-04-06 18:19 mircea_popescu: what's now needed is an expert computer engineer willing and able to take over maintenance of libnss, starting with fixing it so it allows proper static linking.
mircea_popescu: yes, no glibc was in fact a preference, and we got it out, of trb, of eulora, etc. no argument there.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, we never actually said "do not use this".
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 13:12 bvt: during the gnat build, the sjlj runtime is built, so it should be possible to switch to it and test.
mircea_popescu: and i thought, naivity of naivities and unexamined infantilism of unexamined infantilisms, that sjlj is a quaint artefact of slow yore, meanwhile supplanted by more modern, better alternatives.
mircea_popescu: i actually thought this. i was still thinking this, feb 11th.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 15:21 asciilifeform: unix tries to 'be all possible kitchen' and appears to 'succeed', via fraudulently slipping in 9000 unprincipled-exceptions (hardcoded limits, not only in gcc, but even 'ls' , see old thrd, and moar or less errywhere ) , and 'optimizations'
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho
mircea_popescu: anyway, let's draw some quick possible approaches here.
mircea_popescu: a. we make no standard, every man for his own, but : a.1. ada is the preferred language ; a.2. musl is the preferred standards provider ; a.3. zcx is the preferred exception mechanism ; a.4. static is the preferred build mode. this should come with a design process for candidates evaluation for standardization.
mircea_popescu: b. ada-sjlj-musl-static is the standard, and we simply don't sign or use anything that doesn't live up to this.
mircea_popescu: c. ada-?-musl-static is the standard, either zcx or sjlj is acceptable (mostly based on what threading philosophy one embraces), with an obvious preference for zcx if one doesn't thread.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: d. ada-zcx-musl-static is the standard for non-threaded programs, we don't standardize threading.
mircea_popescu: e. something else (among which possible e.1. someone reads and implements dwarf properly ; e.2. someone picks a glibc to grandfather and dedicates himself to cleaning and fixing.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform current one prolly v49, note how gcc went from 5 to 8 in 2 years.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but it's not you who has to see, maybe someone sees, what. im certainly not sending you to e.2
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: this pretty much bans glibc, from my unexpert cursory look it dun seem fixable for sjlj.
diana_coman: re glibc: until now I saw it as tolerated until full tmsr version (whatever that might be, i.e. owned glibc version or musl or whatever)
mircea_popescu: diana_coman looks like it's going the way of cuntoo-ada-musl, no glibc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform getting an aarch64 musl sjlj going will be a fun task.
diana_coman: that's precisely why it was tolerated until now afaik: because all sorts not yet fully ported to anything tmsr
diana_coman remembers that eulora client is 99% NON-tmsr
diana_coman: to my mind option b has the benefit that it concentrates the effort in the right direction at least
☟︎ diana_coman: asciilifeform, honestly, all I wanted was this game! lol
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no, but obv I will have to not try but do it
diana_coman has no curiosity on the topic: all pain at its time, not earlier
diana_coman: I don't know about option c i.e. whether there is something lost by going with it
diana_coman: I guess the main thing against it would be that part where can't kill
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho
diana_coman considers eating treebark: ate it before, certainly better than eating glibc-barf
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:21 asciilifeform: rrright, was curious re the volume of barfola
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:21 asciilifeform: ( e.g. asciilifeform was quite surprised when found that trb and ALL deps built cleanly & functioned on static musl )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:26 asciilifeform: ada.interrupts ~will~ have to be tested, it's a must for 'bare irons' adaisms as a class.
mircea_popescu: also, subtle point in
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897708 bears belabouring : the point is to standardize ~the tools~, not necessarily (in order) their usage, or end products. the idea is for user to know what to expect if builting a tmsr box, and why he expects that, not necessarily what he can do with it.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~.
mircea_popescu: he can use it to crush hymenoptera for all i care, just as long as it contains the correct set of software.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 00:43 Bane_Capital: mircea_popescu: Well, I wish people would educate me instead of just beating on me.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 00:43 mircea_popescu: this is how we educate kids in europe
BingoBoingo: Apparently a UStard seriously underestimating what he paid in total taxes
BingoBoingo: Anyways, All these names that had burned out completely before I showed up a few months later. History!
mircea_popescu: i suspect ada machine can be made with much tinier kernel tho.
mircea_popescu: entirely possible we'll have to do kernel-and-rest in one gulp
mircea_popescu: though if possible, i'd just move the wrappers to ada first.
mircea_popescu: one advantage to c's retardation is that well... as long as you feed it the shit it expects, it'll work in the same manner as before.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'm "knocking" on a few doors. The "polite way" hasn't been very productive, so the rapeful way is appearing very necessary. Haven't hear anything from the "Proud Boys", excess of ego appears to be a defect of the dwindling population of forum operators.
BingoBoingo: A large number of the folks who did or in the past would have started a forum are in the Google/Youtube hugbox or similar "watermelon farms"
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'm still curious what mircea_popescu thinks of as 'ada machine' << 128 bit MIPS 1, 2, 8, or 72 cores at 800, 1600, or 3200 mhz when purpose backed. Otherwise 128 bit for the UCI address space.
mircea_popescu: actually ada not having a backend can (and probably will) hide all sorta surprises.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: problem with all this is -- the option's always between trust and knowledge. since we've discovered we can't trust gcc, it follows not only that we now have to write our own ; but that we must maintain the people who know how to write one.