tmsr - Log 2018-07-08

phf: asciilifeform: well, that would be one of the reasons why "hasher gotta be hardwired". vtools give you hard guarantees about the format of the patch, the state of the press, that can actually be manipulated outside of unix soup

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then you end up with hash state machine, and with "oh, this x hash item matches that y hash" lulz and etc.

mircea_popescu: what ~i~ don't understand is why every, ~EVERY~ design decision gotta be re-argued again, soviets style, with every fucking implementation every single time.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no state machine, just expectation that machine has e.g. 'keccac1024' util on it

mircea_popescu: "and this, ivan ivanovich, is why bricks are this long and this wide. notwithstanding what your fucking wall needs iyo"

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do you know what hash patch x is hashed in ?

asciilifeform: would say, e.g., +++ b/fg.ucf keccak512 2e1120e28077b4fc31bc2de704cba9591daad2e4193737cf911a0dd49d4731843cc9fb9c3595f65c9e1bdf6a13d2d41011552de688cff10a7074ace6827cc37f

mircea_popescu: right.

asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu even wrote 'standardization is great, but where unnecessary, harmful'

mircea_popescu: what the fuck is the ~use~ of more than one hash ?

mircea_popescu: so that i gotta mandate every vtron implements 500 hashers ?

asciilifeform: aside from old-stuff-we're-doomed-to-regrind-for-new-vtron-anyway, largely in the keccak win of being able to emit arbitrarily long hash

mircea_popescu: the whole discussion went 1. there can only be one ; 2. sure as fuck won't be hitler's ; 3. pick something

mircea_popescu: keccak came out of that. it's all in the logs. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: the advantage of keccak for this application is tghat it ~intakes~ arbitrary lengthj

mircea_popescu: not that it outputs arbitrary length.

mircea_popescu: hitlerhashes block.

mircea_popescu: keccak does not.

mircea_popescu: keccak eats n=1 arbitrary length.

asciilifeform: ( admitting , however, asciilifeform does not know of any proof that the longer keccaks are actually stronger )

asciilifeform: and yes, i like it largely because not crowned by hitler. ( tho admittedly there is no way to prove the negative of hitlerian authorship for it, the author set of it iirc intersects with that of aes , which ~was~ crowned )

asciilifeform: ability to use variant hashers in v would seem to go with the nonspecificity-of-diddling philosophy tho.

mircea_popescu: in the sense turret-pistol would.

mircea_popescu: if you have many hashes a) you won't have them all properly supported ever ; b) nobody's going to have multi-implementations for most of it.

mircea_popescu: if you have one, everyone can use their own homebrew keccak see if it works.

mircea_popescu: now, politically i was going to take a soft approach to it, but since phf decided to make a challenge out of it for no reason i can imagine, what can i say, let's make it a big deal.

mircea_popescu: i couldn't care less what size. it'll have to be something, and whoever makes it makes it.

mircea_popescu: (ftr, turret pistol actually existed -- borne out of that "supporter of creativity" that's ustardian "intellectual property" laws. worked as well as anything the socialists ever sired ever worked.)

mircea_popescu: http://www.ilgunrights.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/turret-gun.jpg <

mircea_popescu: habitually row-fired

mircea_popescu: (yes, including the round facing operator)

asciilifeform: http://www.horstheld.com/0-Cochran.htm << mircea_popescu's item. hilarious, who the fuck would fire this.

mircea_popescu: men. that's why the species has males, so they attempt to raise cichlids, rear children, fire turret pistols, go to the moon...

asciilifeform: granted, early cannon was nearly as lethal to the artillerist as to enemy. but that was state of art in 1500. turret pistol seems like a step back..

mircea_popescu: it existed because cold had the "patent" on other kind of revolver.

mircea_popescu: colt*

asciilifeform: this kind of thing is alive & well today, in pharma biznis, which asciilifeform had the misfortune of being involved in.

mircea_popescu: (and if anyone's curious why the cichlids are such a big deal pantsuit item -- brooding habits, every individual of either gender does ~nothing all day besides "helping" the young, by which they also mean adolescents)

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform since we're doing weird guns, i guess pucker gatling also worth a mention

mircea_popescu: (exactly as it sounds, 1700s musket-machinegun attempt. didn't work so well)

asciilifeform: gatling actually got a fairly successful second life, in vietnam ( and to present day )

mircea_popescu: yes but that was more 1800s. century does a lot for machining.

mircea_popescu: www.historic-uk.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/the-puckle-gun.jpg << item

asciilifeform: repeating fire for 'hosedown' is alluring temptation, recall the quite sad and underpowered chinese multishot arbalest

asciilifeform: ( euro-style cranked arbalest, somewhat interestingly, had ~same penetration as musket )

mircea_popescu: does look like the chinos stole a hellenistic item.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 04:26 mircea_popescu: actually... i suppose might as well get the whole pile archived

mircea_popescu: the internet's the most fertile plain yet known.

ave1: asciilifeform, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832709, this seems to me to be a duplicate key. But maybe I misunderstand? (i.e. N an e are the same, user is the same but github key id is different) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 21:46 asciilifeform: in yet-other lulz, we have our first idjit with ~current~ key that sits down straight on an old popped mod : http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/391BBDCC87CBADA0F891176D9D45D80B7D5D076E4551151F42B104B717F5E449

ave1: phf, link was wrong should have been: http://ave1.org/tarpit/tmsr-pgp-genesis.vpatch.ave1.sig. I updated the link in the post.

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832560 <-- yeah, one of the fun (if messy) parts in exploring the beast's entrails. can notice clearly the worms eating at it. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 14:44 mircea_popescu: re http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/076-shithub-2018-06.html#selection-149.0-153.220 : you should see the "easy to detect" over @ fetlife, fucktards have five dozen DIFFERENT failure modes, all of them ujust as "specifically laid out". bot code is 60% "handle inept error pages" by mass. so fucking evident it's the result of "incremental development", too.

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832697 <-- historical walk of users by id, yes. but keys are grabbed via shithub.usg/luser.keys, which yields luser's set of keys at the time of the curl. ☝︎

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832633 <-- ok. this'll be a very good exercise for the spyked patch-making muscle, I need it. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 17:24 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832542 << I'd be much obliged if you did, staying on cuntoo dev until done.

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-08#1832806 <-- it certainly looks this way, these are keys that are in both the phathub-2015 and 2018 datasets, and this particular one belongs to the same user. but note that the 2018 one doesn't have a key id (I inserted the user id instead), that one was only available when grabbing the key through the API. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 04:27 ave1: asciilifeform, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832709, this seems to me to be a duplicate key. But maybe I misunderstand? (i.e. N an e are the same, user is the same but github key id is different)

a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 13:47 spyked: asciilifeform, phathub file contains RSA e and N only. but that's a good point, should also post the other ones under some raw form.

deedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/077-lacul-morii.html << The Tar Pit - A photographic tour of Bucharest; in today's issue: Lacul Morii

asciilifeform: per above, we get the astonishing find that, since 2016 , all but 498 lusers either: a) got booted from shithub or b) swapped key

asciilifeform: or hm, nm, closer look shows 395480 old mods; they ended up (correctly) marked for retest by asciilifeform's ancient logic

mircea_popescu: tbh 498 sounds closer to genuine github userbase figures.

asciilifeform: it aint as if they dun know how to generate rando key to go with spamola rando luser acct tho.

mircea_popescu: evidently.\

phf: ave1, asciilifeform or other ada specialists, how did you bootstrap a gnat on aarch64? is there some binary that's floating around (because adacore doesn't seem to have linux-aarch64 build) or is it bootstrapped using a cross compiler on a x86 linux?

phf: i very briefly looked at ave1's script, and i'm guessing that's what it's supposed to do (besides musl related): build a x86 hosted aarch64 crosscompiler, build an aarch64 build using that compiler?

asciilifeform: phf: ave1's recent breakthrough was specifically this -- a rotor-style cross-compile process that takes an existing amd64 gnat, and builds a particular other gnat for whatever arch

phf: ok, thank you. afaiu though ave1's build is potentially missing all kinds of system integration components, or is the retargeting against custom ada stdlib optional?

asciilifeform: it's a musltronic build, like rotor. so it builds absolutely errything that is needed for a working static elf-outputting gnat.

asciilifeform: and quite correctly, you cannot link these with anything that it itself did not build.

mircea_popescu: nobinary!

phf: asciilifeform: is it possible to combine musl and libc on a same gentoo system (gentoo insists i use something they call crossdev, i haven't yet looked into it further) (i'm using your aarch64 gentoo root file system)?

asciilifeform: phf: only on a system where the systemwide crapola is traditional (glibc) and your musl item is a homedir-local build, a la rotor.

asciilifeform: phf: as discussed in the recent diana_coman thread, if you want systemwide musl-anythings, gotta have a pure musl box.

mircea_popescu: "Speaking of below, above" lmao spyked's forging himself a new poetic language, full of verve and unexpectedness!

mircea_popescu: just has a very personal relationship with the poor lang, fo sho.

asciilifeform: phf: ave1's item is pretty great, it resulted in tarballs containing working bins of amd64 and arm64 gnat; the latter worx great on my desk rockchip. the only item that dunwork of yet is the repeat of said process ~on~ arm64 (to crossbuild amd64 gnat there)

mircea_popescu similarly guilty.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wait, i thought he finessed that too ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly, but i haven't tested his pill yet ( iirc not yet published on his www )

asciilifeform: a Troo Eternal gnat oughta be able to build itself ad-infinitum, jumping archs as necessary

mircea_popescu: indeed.

mircea_popescu: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/077-lacul-morii.html#selection-141.182-141.386 << dood has a fucking point. you should see the morons here, i suspect they sleep in the damned things. their idea of "dressing up" is ~a different blouse~ atop the grafted-on jeans. they have shops catering to this specifically, "dress-up blouses shop". in most social situations i actually own 99.9x% of all human females dressed like human females

mircea_popescu: rather than impersonating sourdough miners.

phf: i suspect also that ave1's build is missing functionality that vtools requires, i want to see what that slice looks like, possibly fix it

mircea_popescu: certainly the hasher :D

asciilifeform: phf: at this point, if something dun build under musltronic gnat, the problem is with item, not with the gnat

esthlos: wrt http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832726 and asciilifeform 's "sad mode", the idea of using the manifest was the confusing way the fuck back in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-07#1787163 , where I thought "oh, mp wants me to build a vtron using manifest to resolve tree, guess I need a manifest spec!" ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 23:27 phf: i've been using vpatch/vdiff without full blown v, because i can order the patches by hand (and there's now an explicit ordering provided by manifest), and vpatch verifies the hashes for me. it would be handy if i could also press existing sha patches with `vpatch -a sha` or whatever

a111: Logged on 2018-03-07 19:18 mircea_popescu: esthlos i don't get it, you're going to take a stab "at it" ie making a textfile, the sort that only carries any sort of weight or importance if a) you're somebody and b) you're doing something important, in between whenever your fiat job permits you a few hours here and there ?

a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 23:58 phf: esthlos: your v_genesis patch is broken, http://btcbase.org/patches/v_genesis/file "contact" etc.