phf: asciilifeform: well, that would be one of the reasons why "hasher gotta be hardwired". vtools give you hard guarantees about the format of the patch, the state of the press, that can actually be manipulated outside of unix soup
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then you end up with hash state machine, and with "oh, this x hash item matches that y hash" lulz and etc.
mircea_popescu: what ~i~ don't understand is why every, ~EVERY~ design decision gotta be re-argued again, soviets style, with every fucking implementation every single time.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no state machine, just expectation that machine has e.g. 'keccac1024' util on it
mircea_popescu: "and this, ivan ivanovich, is why bricks are this long and this wide. notwithstanding what your fucking wall needs iyo"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do you know what hash patch x is hashed in ?
asciilifeform: would say, e.g., +++ b/fg.ucf keccak512 2e1120e28077b4fc31bc2de704cba9591daad2e4193737cf911a0dd49d4731843cc9fb9c3595f65c9e1bdf6a13d2d41011552de688cff10a7074ace6827cc37f
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu even wrote 'standardization is great, but where unnecessary, harmful'
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is the ~use~ of more than one hash ?
mircea_popescu: so that i gotta mandate every vtron implements 500 hashers ?
asciilifeform: aside from old-stuff-we're-doomed-to-regrind-for-new-vtron-anyway, largely in the keccak win of being able to emit arbitrarily long hash
mircea_popescu: the whole discussion went 1. there can only be one ; 2. sure as fuck won't be hitler's ; 3. pick something
mircea_popescu: keccak came out of that. it's all in the logs.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: the advantage of keccak for this application is tghat it ~intakes~ arbitrary lengthj
mircea_popescu: not that it outputs arbitrary length.
mircea_popescu: hitlerhashes block.
asciilifeform: all known hashers eat arbitrary length, just multiples of n
mircea_popescu: keccak does not.
asciilifeform: keccak is able to eat ~and shit~ arbitrary bitness.
mircea_popescu: keccak eats n=1 arbitrary length.
asciilifeform: ( admitting , however, asciilifeform does not know of any proof that the longer keccaks are actually stronger )
asciilifeform: and yes, i like it largely because not crowned by hitler. ( tho admittedly there is no way to prove the negative of hitlerian authorship for it, the author set of it iirc intersects with that of aes , which ~was~ crowned )
asciilifeform: ability to use variant hashers in v would seem to go with the nonspecificity-of-diddling philosophy tho.
mircea_popescu: in the sense turret-pistol would.
mircea_popescu: if you have many hashes a) you won't have them all properly supported ever ; b) nobody's going to have multi-implementations for most of it.
mircea_popescu: if you have one, everyone can use their own homebrew keccak see if it works.
asciilifeform: i expect that errybody currently tuned in, will use keccak.
mircea_popescu: now, politically i was going to take a soft approach to it, but since phf decided to make a challenge out of it for no reason i can imagine, what can i say, let's make it a big deal.
asciilifeform: i can see mircea_popescu's arg for gluing it in. but why 512b.
mircea_popescu: i couldn't care less what size. it'll have to be something, and whoever makes it makes it.
mircea_popescu: (ftr, turret pistol actually existed -- borne out of that "supporter of creativity" that's ustardian "intellectual property" laws. worked as well as anything the socialists ever sired ever worked.)
asciilifeform: which pistol was this
mircea_popescu: http://www.ilgunrights.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/turret-gun.jpg <
asciilifeform: lol!
asciilifeform: horizontal revolver ?!
asciilifeform: alignment is problematic enuff in ordinary nagant. picture this horror.
mircea_popescu: habitually row-fired
mircea_popescu: (yes, including the round facing operator)
asciilifeform: horizontal ~drums~ work ok, as in rpd ( https://topwar.ru/14415-degtyarev-pehotnyy-pulemetu-dp-85-let.html ) , but these had a bolt & extractor
asciilifeform: http://www.horstheld.com/0-Cochran.htm << mircea_popescu's item. hilarious, who the fuck would fire this.
mircea_popescu: men. that's why the species has males, so they attempt to raise cichlids, rear children, fire turret pistols, go to the moon...
asciilifeform: granted, early cannon was nearly as lethal to the artillerist as to enemy. but that was state of art in 1500. turret pistol seems like a step back..
mircea_popescu: it existed because cold had the "patent" on other kind of revolver.
mircea_popescu: colt*
asciilifeform: lol!!
asciilifeform: such usa !
asciilifeform: this kind of thing is alive & well today, in pharma biznis, which asciilifeform had the misfortune of being involved in.
mircea_popescu: (and if anyone's curious why the cichlids are such a big deal pantsuit item -- brooding habits, every individual of either gender does ~nothing all day besides "helping" the young, by which they also mean adolescents)
asciilifeform: 'why is this methyl group here' '...patent'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform since we're doing weird guns, i guess pucker gatling also worth a mention
mircea_popescu: (exactly as it sounds, 1700s musket-machinegun attempt. didn't work so well)
asciilifeform: gatling actually got a fairly successful second life, in vietnam ( and to present day )
mircea_popescu: yes but that was more 1800s. century does a lot for machining.
asciilifeform: verily
mircea_popescu: www.historic-uk.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/the-puckle-gun.jpg << item
asciilifeform: repeating fire for 'hosedown' is alluring temptation, recall the quite sad and underpowered chinese multishot arbalest
phf: flintlock was a bitch
asciilifeform: ( iirc they had it on official issue well into 19th c ! )
asciilifeform: http://kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Chinese-Repeating-Crossbow-705x230.jpg << subj
asciilifeform: iirc did 0 against even lightly armoured target.
asciilifeform: but perhaps it sufficed as 'police arm'
asciilifeform: ( euro-style cranked arbalest, somewhat interestingly, had ~same penetration as musket )
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu: does look like the chinos stole a hellenistic item.
lobbes: !!deed http://lobbesblog.com/billing/2018/q2/diana_coman_payment_receipt.txt
deedbot: accepted: 1
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832427 << ty for this, btw ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 04:26 mircea_popescu: actually... i suppose might as well get the whole pile archived
mircea_popescu: the internet's the most fertile plain yet known.
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/bundle-530962.txt
ave1: asciilifeform, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832709, this seems to me to be a duplicate key. But maybe I misunderstand? (i.e. N an e are the same, user is the same but github key id is different) ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 21:46 asciilifeform: in yet-other lulz, we have our first idjit with ~current~ key that sits down straight on an old popped mod : http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/391BBDCC87CBADA0F891176D9D45D80B7D5D076E4551151F42B104B717F5E449
lobbesbot: ave1: Sent 1 day, 4 hours, and 57 minutes ago: <phf> ^
ave1: phf, link was wrong should have been: http://ave1.org/tarpit/tmsr-pgp-genesis.vpatch.ave1.sig. I updated the link in the post.
phf: ave1: ty, you've been placed http://btcbase.org/patches/tmsr-pgp-genesis
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832560 <-- yeah, one of the fun (if messy) parts in exploring the beast's entrails. can notice clearly the worms eating at it. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 14:44 mircea_popescu: re http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/076-shithub-2018-06.html#selection-149.0-153.220 : you should see the "easy to detect" over @ fetlife, fucktards have five dozen DIFFERENT failure modes, all of them ujust as "specifically laid out". bot code is 60% "handle inept error pages" by mass. so fucking evident it's the result of "incremental development", too.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832697 <-- historical walk of users by id, yes. but keys are grabbed via shithub.usg/luser.keys, which yields luser's set of keys at the time of the curl. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 21:38 mircea_popescu: consider, he walks a historical table.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832633 <-- ok. this'll be a very good exercise for the spyked patch-making muscle, I need it. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 17:24 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832542 << I'd be much obliged if you did, staying on cuntoo dev until done.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-08#1832806 <-- it certainly looks this way, these are keys that are in both the phathub-2015 and 2018 datasets, and this particular one belongs to the same user. but note that the 2018 one doesn't have a key id (I inserted the user id instead), that one was only available when grabbing the key through the API. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 04:27 ave1: asciilifeform, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832709, this seems to me to be a duplicate key. But maybe I misunderstand? (i.e. N an e are the same, user is the same but github key id is different)
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832552 <-- updated with non-rsa keys: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/076-shithub-2018-06.html#selection-220.0-220.4 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 13:47 spyked: asciilifeform, phathub file contains RSA e and N only. but that's a good point, should also post the other ones under some raw form.
deedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/077-lacul-morii.html << The Tar Pit - A photographic tour of Bucharest; in today's issue: Lacul Morii
asciilifeform: in other noose, snarfing complete, 2nd dupe found, http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7E7F1A77C5BC62EBC7D363251EA4A619BD704ED95C32BC5099917934CAB1EA41
asciilifeform: totals : 4605939 keys eaten, 4605441 mods among'em.
asciilifeform: later today -- output.
asciilifeform: per above, we get the astonishing find that, since 2016 , all but 498 lusers either: a) got booted from shithub or b) swapped key
asciilifeform: or hm, nm, closer look shows 395480 old mods; they ended up (correctly) marked for retest by asciilifeform's ancient logic
mircea_popescu: tbh 498 sounds closer to genuine github userbase figures.
asciilifeform: sadly i dun have 'the genuine figs', all i got is this.
asciilifeform: it aint as if they dun know how to generate rando key to go with spamola rando luser acct tho.
mircea_popescu: evidently.\
phf: ave1, asciilifeform or other ada specialists, how did you bootstrap a gnat on aarch64? is there some binary that's floating around (because adacore doesn't seem to have linux-aarch64 build) or is it bootstrapped using a cross compiler on a x86 linux?
phf: i very briefly looked at ave1's script, and i'm guessing that's what it's supposed to do (besides musl related): build a x86 hosted aarch64 crosscompiler, build an aarch64 build using that compiler?
asciilifeform: phf: ave1's recent breakthrough was specifically this -- a rotor-style cross-compile process that takes an existing amd64 gnat, and builds a particular other gnat for whatever arch
asciilifeform: so yes.
phf: ok, thank you. afaiu though ave1's build is potentially missing all kinds of system integration components, or is the retargeting against custom ada stdlib optional?
asciilifeform: not optional
asciilifeform: it's a musltronic build, like rotor. so it builds absolutely errything that is needed for a working static elf-outputting gnat.
asciilifeform: and quite correctly, you cannot link these with anything that it itself did not build.
mircea_popescu: nobinary!
phf: asciilifeform: is it possible to combine musl and libc on a same gentoo system (gentoo insists i use something they call crossdev, i haven't yet looked into it further) (i'm using your aarch64 gentoo root file system)?
asciilifeform: phf: only on a system where the systemwide crapola is traditional (glibc) and your musl item is a homedir-local build, a la rotor.
phf: ah, word.
asciilifeform: phf: as discussed in the recent diana_coman thread, if you want systemwide musl-anythings, gotta have a pure musl box.
phf: i followed that thread with one eye, and now i regret it. gotta revisit
mircea_popescu: "Speaking of below, above" lmao spyked's forging himself a new poetic language, full of verve and unexpectedness!
phf: he's a crypto-alchemist, leaving hints in the logs for future generations
mircea_popescu: just has a very personal relationship with the poor lang, fo sho.
asciilifeform: phf: ave1's item is pretty great, it resulted in tarballs containing working bins of amd64 and arm64 gnat; the latter worx great on my desk rockchip. the only item that dunwork of yet is the repeat of said process ~on~ arm64 (to crossbuild amd64 gnat there)
mircea_popescu similarly guilty.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wait, i thought he finessed that too ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly, but i haven't tested his pill yet ( iirc not yet published on his www )
mircea_popescu: aok
asciilifeform: a Troo Eternal gnat oughta be able to build itself ad-infinitum, jumping archs as necessary
asciilifeform: y'know, sorta like c compiler in the olden dayz.
mircea_popescu: indeed.
asciilifeform: phf: are you in the midst of planting the thing on c101pa box?
phf: asciilifeform: yes
asciilifeform: neato
mircea_popescu: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/077-lacul-morii.html#selection-141.182-141.386 << dood has a fucking point. you should see the morons here, i suspect they sleep in the damned things. their idea of "dressing up" is ~a different blouse~ atop the grafted-on jeans. they have shops catering to this specifically, "dress-up blouses shop". in most social situations i actually own 99.9x% of all human females dressed like human females
mircea_popescu: rather than impersonating sourdough miners.
asciilifeform: phf: theoretically it oughta run there without modification
phf: i suspect also that ave1's build is missing functionality that vtools requires, i want to see what that slice looks like, possibly fix it
mircea_popescu: certainly the hasher :D
asciilifeform: phf: at this point, if something dun build under musltronic gnat, the problem is with item, not with the gnat
phf: asciilifeform: i didn't expect anything less generous
BingoBoingo: This is largely a country a jeans grafters too
BingoBoingo: At least in winter. In the summer shorts do come out
deedbot: http://blog.esthlos.com/routes-to-keccak-in-esthlos-v/ << esthlos - Routes to Keccak in esthlos-v
esthlos: wrt http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832726 and asciilifeform 's "sad mode", the idea of using the manifest was the confusing way the fuck back in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-07#1787163 , where I thought "oh, mp wants me to build a vtron using manifest to resolve tree, guess I need a manifest spec!" ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 23:27 phf: i've been using vpatch/vdiff without full blown v, because i can order the patches by hand (and there's now an explicit ordering provided by manifest), and vpatch verifies the hashes for me. it would be handy if i could also press existing sha patches with `vpatch -a sha` or whatever
a111: Logged on 2018-03-07 19:18 mircea_popescu: esthlos i don't get it, you're going to take a stab "at it" ie making a textfile, the sort that only carries any sort of weight or importance if a) you're somebody and b) you're doing something important, in between whenever your fiat job permits you a few hours here and there ?
esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-07#1832731 << looks like yeah, I have ancient vdiff, taken from the classic http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-07 23:58 phf: esthlos: your v_genesis patch is broken, http://btcbase.org/patches/v_genesis/file "contact" etc.
esthlos: phf I fixed those files if you'd like them, at http://files.esthlos.com/crypto/esthlos-v/v_genesis.vpatch and http://files.esthlos.com/crypto/esthlos-v/v_genesis.vpatch.esthlos.sig
esthlos: bbl
mod6: all caught up on logs.
mod6: how's everyone doing?
BingoBoingo: Not bad
mod6: nice :]
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/07/another-case-of-human-labor-masquerading-as-ai-exposed/ << Qntra - Another Case Of Human Labor Masquerading As AI Exposed
deedbot: http://blog.esthlos.com/log-reading-week-1/ << esthlos - Log Reading, Week 1