tmsr - Log 2018-07-06

mircea_popescu: i guess next time i ban his whole c class. two bit shitheads on two bit shitnet with pooled ips

a111: Logged on 2018-07-05 13:12 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831734 << launches today ! ( making a few edits atm )

mircea_popescu: ikr.

mircea_popescu: !#s gnuplot

mircea_popescu: ah i supposed i whined on trilema directly.

asciilifeform: 1 of the things asciilifeform would luvvv to see reimplemented in a nearfyootoor sane scripting lisp

mircea_popescu: quite.

mircea_popescu: and i suspect the "unicode" problem is tightly bound into this.

mircea_popescu: the issue of textual->pictographic representation is a lot wider and deeper than what the imbeciles rephrased it as, and proceeded to "solve" in their usual fucktarded manbners.

asciilifeform: in other definitely-not-noose, turns out chechen has ( sorta like the turkic langs ) an astonishing proliferation of tenses ( e.g. you cannot say 'last night epony was impaled on scimitar', gotta specify a tense that depends on e.g. whether you personally witnessed said edifying act, and whether impaled repeatedly or merely 1 thrust, or... )

mircea_popescu: if you recall, unicode started as "how about we produce replacement for "Box drawings vertical single and right double"

mircea_popescu: which, incidentally, is a character you apparently ~can no longer paste~.

mircea_popescu: but cp437-198 ftr.

mircea_popescu: seems not.

mircea_popescu: http://archive.is/xa79A#selection-4701.0-4701.37 << items

mircea_popescu: used to be exactly what alf says, the building blocks of "gui".

mircea_popescu: you wouldn't want anyone to be able to make a gui without importing rust-whatever ?

mircea_popescu: who would want that!!!1

asciilifeform: phunphakt -- because of insistence on supporting idjit rendering systems, they let korean ( hangul ) script eat O(N^4) space ! ( i.e. erry possible combo of subglyphs ) apparently.

asciilifeform: ditto, naturally, chinesium ( plenty of cn/jp'kanji' are decomposable into subglyphs, the amt of use made of this fact : 0 )

asciilifeform: http://archive.is/xa79A#selection-4043.0-4055.26 >> 166 A6 Feminine ordinal indicator / 167 A7 Masculine ordinal indicator << where the fuk is this used?!

mircea_popescu: meanwhile teaching girls to make zwiebelschnitzel. in french chablis, for maximal gains.

ave1: thx diana_coman, It's now very minimal, mostly so that it can be understood as is. I'm working on adding all the code in so that at least ffa can build.

diana_coman: what was exactly you couldn't build with gprbuild and needed the makefile for?

ave1: the startup.S file, it needs to end up as a separate object file and not part of libgnat.a

ave1: at least that's my understanding so far (crt1.o etc are also not part of libc.a). But maybe it is fine to put in, I haven't tried it yet.

diana_coman: hmm, but you can in any case just write a .gpr that builds the object files for precisely the files you want, no/

diana_coman: anyway, this might be premature ; it's more that I'm surprised gprbuild couldn't quite do what you needed

ave1: it maybe possible to creat a stand-alone object file as target but I haven't found that option yet (so far I worked with libraries and executables).

ave1: Also, I just checked, it is fine to put the start.o in the libgnat.a so next step may well be that the makefile can be removed again. ☟︎

asciilifeform: ave1: pretty neat. 1 nitpick, however: generally you don't want memcpy and memmove to be in anything but asm -- otherwise whole proggy is abominably slow ( ada proggy spends quite a bit of time clearing buffers and passing fairly large chunks of data by value )

ave1: asciilifeform, yes that was my first reaction too. It does does something with word copying though and also individual files can be build without any of the extra gnat checks. So maybe the ada versions can be stand-ins so long as a native asm based version has not been written.

asciilifeform: ave1: also keep in mind that you can't get away with not having the last-resort exception handler -- preconds and asserts demand it

ave1: the examples have two binaries, one simple hw the other triggers a constaint error

ave1: now there was something with asserts, but I'll have to dig this up again and do a few experiments

asciilifeform: ave1: seems like the holy grail, the bare iron gnat, is not far.

asciilifeform: ave1: ultimate brass ring is where we can dispense with os (in the usual sense)

ave1: btw, at this point would bare metal arm make more sense than x86? (at least some arm processors seem to be free of blobs and backdoor). ☟︎

asciilifeform: asciilifeform in particular would like a gnat for mips, given as the latter actually fits in an ice40

asciilifeform: i took a shot at building one back in 2016, but ran into a buncha gnarl, which ave1 at this point seems to have mostly resolved

ave1: yes, did you ever hear anything back from the russian mips producers?

asciilifeform: the ice40 breakthrough however means that we can be own mips producer.

asciilifeform: ( and possibly can roll in not only mips, but e.g. a custom instruction for bounds checking ) ☟︎

ave1: thx! now if anyone can be bother to design a board with multiple ice40 ☟︎

asciilifeform: the simplest (text i/o only) mips emul asciilifeform likes, is 'gxemul' , should suffice to test.

ave1: I see, I'll have to learn verilog, I did not know you could implement a processor with so little code

asciilifeform: ave1: FUCKGOATS src http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis makes as good an intro to verilogism as any imho

asciilifeform: ice40, unlike the xilinx cplds, also includes 32kB of onboard sram. so possibly can have small cache, or extra registers, or some other useful item.

ave1: I was reading through the fg design (doing experiments with circuit simulators to see how the RNG might work etc). I'll just continue with the next step.

asciilifeform: ave1: iirc you also have an actual FG, can experiment with that.

asciilifeform: ave1: feel free to ask q if you end up puzzled in re particulars.

asciilifeform: ( the src is pedantically, painfully commented, but whoknows )

asciilifeform: ave1: simulator won't give you much useful to work with re analogue rng, considering that it relies on amplification of physical (johnson) noise

mircea_popescu: hey, colonial empires. england's all injuns and france's all africans for a coupla centuries now.

mircea_popescu: sadly for the us, they're all latinos. and it shows.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832198 << /me following this quite excitedly. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 13:43 ave1: Also, I just checked, it is fine to put the start.o in the libgnat.a so next step may well be that the makefile can be removed again.

mircea_popescu: i like his approach, ftr. tempered ingenuity, wiggle things one at a time towards the greater goal.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a finger's length of asm away from iron gnat.

mircea_popescu: just about

mircea_popescu: and not even a long finger, he just doesn't comfortably asm is all.

asciilifeform: funnily enuff asciilifeform posted the necessary asm a while back, but grrr can't find in log yet

mircea_popescu: maybe we should asm the log, simplify array access :D

asciilifeform: ( all you gotta do is to bring up the x64 pagetable and the uart, and you're home )

mircea_popescu: anyway, let him be, this part can be easily patched in later anyway.

mircea_popescu: did i ever tell you the story of ye olde 8086 friend had that could drop into asm-er from bios ?

mircea_popescu: this "iron-gnat", i'm not even sure it's clear what a cool system it could make.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly.

mircea_popescu: thinking about this, it's fucking evident what difference the online made for the thinking mind. yes i was a child, but child or no child, it didn't occur to me that i must have a gns link to the item that i like. "this" and pointing was an acceptable manner of reference in the 90s, because why the hell wouldn't it be and what's a global namespace anyway.

mircea_popescu: very much the exact opposite of http://trilema.com/2011/ce-am-pierdut-si-voi-n-ati-avut/ discussion.

mircea_popescu: !!up Bigtexasbingo

a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 18:06 asciilifeform: now switching from the depressive tack, to the crackpot track, i ~did~ get high speed uart going on one of those all-in-one amd64 boxes.

a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 23:35 asciilifeform: theoretically you can, e.g., host www on just an uart.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832215 << you definitely do. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832217 << really ? name one ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 14:09 ave1: btw, at this point would bare metal arm make more sense than x86? (at least some arm processors seem to be free of blobs and backdoor).

mircea_popescu: ya well.

mircea_popescu: in other lulz, apparently "screensaver" on "graphical linux", all flavours, BREAKS OPEN PIPES. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: i don't understand how they propose anyone use those things. "here's a pile of very important features that you must turn off one by one in order to get the box bacl"

mircea_popescu: who the fuck even ships a "screensaver", what is this, the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831830 future ?! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-05 17:15 asciilifeform: in fact, this sorta happened, recall the early crt tv and its xray killzone

mircea_popescu: see Bigtexasbingo , online piracy, gatweay drug to marine piracy.

mircea_popescu: next you'll be having sex, and who knows what other unspeakable horrors banned in boston.

mircea_popescu: Oh, thou demon Drink, thou fell destroyer; thou curse of society, and its greatest annoyer. What hast thou done to society, let me think? I answer thou hast caused the most of ills, thou demon Drink.

mircea_popescu: Thou causeth the mother to neglect her child, also the father to act as he were wild, so that he neglects his loving wife and family dear, by spending his earnings foolishly on whisky, rum and beer.

mircea_popescu: And after spending his earnings foolishly he beats his wife -- the man that promised to protect her during life -- and so the man would if there was no drink in society, for seldom a man beats his wife in a state of sobriety.

mircea_popescu: and so on.

mircea_popescu: o wow that's his irc client ? i thought he literally meant "mother".

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832227 << this. "not as fast, but at least useful" (tm) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 14:13 asciilifeform: ( and possibly can roll in not only mips, but e.g. a custom instruction for bounds checking )

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832233 << there's all that discussion of fabric fabrication... ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 14:17 ave1: thx! now if anyone can be bother to design a board with multiple ice40

mircea_popescu: phf do you remember why ave1 's thing isn't in http://btcbase.org/patches ? ☟︎

mircea_popescu: http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-and-zero-foot-print-runtimes/ & now http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c/

mircea_popescu: ave1 re http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-and-zero-foot-print-runtimes/#comment-38 btw, what became of dlopen ?

asciilifeform: ok here goes, ftr : http://loper-os.org/pub/x86-64-toystore-os.tar.gz >> sha512==e292a6d4296bc3cc63d2bc78bb7def807f7c4e9f8e630b292afec00b08c1fc2f8eeff5d074560804828ee7aee8ab5e43e698436c203c990d994863882e51446a ☟︎

mircea_popescu: " The hello world example from the previous installment can be build and it's size inspected. It is now at 2.6k (down from 54k) on my computer" aaa yes

mircea_popescu: ave1 "can be built*"

asciilifeform: 'make emu' builds variant that runs in qemu and (if you have x86-64 qemu) boots it. 'make sage' ditto but boots on a cold sage ( see http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1887 & elsewhere ) . 'make sage-warm' boots on a warm sage. ☟︎

asciilifeform: there is a x86-64 pagetable unit, and uart init. some of the routines are in c, but quite simple to translate. there is a heathen printf, can tear it out, or use for hexdumps etc.

asciilifeform: the demo mainproggy, rom.c, simply prints 'Halted.' to the uart and hangs forever.

asciilifeform: to build , needs nasm + any gcc whatsoever ( gnat oughta work )

mircea_popescu: ^ worth a check btw.

mircea_popescu: nice

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831980 << no, it's a script that'll build the system from scratch, using a snapshot of external deps ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-05 18:02 asciilifeform: trinque: is your item packaged roughly similarly to my rockchip thing ? (i.e. a tarball that i can unpack onto an empty ext4 , and jump into ) ?

asciilifeform: hmm seems like i forgot to include the sage gdb loaders, 1s

mircea_popescu: a minimal os + custom built fs (doubling as bitcoin specific db ; possibly written as raid firmware at least in part) + proper net driver (i really don't need iptables ad-hoc scripting lang to do what evidently and universally bitcoin node has to do) + grandfather pistols bitcoin code => an actual definitive package.

mircea_popescu: ie, we've managed to stockade it, at least. digestion can then proceed.

asciilifeform: updated the taball, new sha512==6b131ba3529ae9856f0befa260c1a477b068197a9e3b24571308c528bc1373c2ca71f6065e1146dbe9329f115a2fe53469f0d7528a729f73194d75365e7f63f8

asciilifeform: boot_qemu.asm is the minimal x86-64 init and stage1 loader.

asciilifeform: rom.ld is the linker memorymap magic, also educational, produces a bootable kernel.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to bake a e.g. iron trbi, or the like, you'd need to init and talk to the sata card, this is not given in the example ( but not particularly difficult )

ave1: mircea_popescu, dlopen part is from the gnu libc, the init code (even for the static code) in gnu libs depends on functions from the dlopen.o. I think that then causes the whole dlopen.o to be included. I never could get the definite mapping (ld allows you to create a map but it was not helpful)

asciilifeform: the given demo gives you uart and that's it. ( hypothetically could internet over uart, ye olde 'slip/ppp' )

ave1: I next tried to rip out the specific calls but these caused immediate segfaults

ave1: Then I decided I could better spend my time on musl than trying to salvage anything from gnu libc

asciilifeform: ave1: this is The Right Thing, let glibc go to the bottom of the sea where it belongs.

trinque: anybody that wants to help verify the portage genesis.vpatch later oughta try building the musl gentoo in my post.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right.

asciilifeform: trinque: currently massaging ch11 of ffa series, right after this will test-fire your opus

mircea_popescu: ave1 yes, just saying, mapping that out would be useful.

mircea_popescu: because as it happens this is ready knob for "distinguish man from child". i can ask people, "but does your '''project''' dlopen" and well...

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: whole thrust behind asciilifeform's initial colonization of musl was to be rid of dlopen() etc

mircea_popescu: at this juncture i feel obligated to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-23#1789029 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-03-23 04:14 douchebag: Okay, why do you guys liek arguing so much? Is this why you guys don't get anything done?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't say!

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832308 << to expand on this, with the linked mips example, already can haz e.g. 32bit cpu with no pipeline, no cache, etc ~but~ fits in ice40. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 16:58 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832227 << this. "not as fast, but at least useful" (tm)

asciilifeform: ice40 + a coupla MB of sram -- and you can (not very quickly, but) crypto.

mircea_popescu: lmao. let's ban him ?

mircea_popescu: meanwhile " In 2014 Dundee was recognised by the United Nations as the UK's first UNESCO City of Design for its diverse contributions to fields including medical research, comics and video games."

mircea_popescu: just thought you folks would like to know.

mircea_popescu: au si ei caracal.

mircea_popescu: city in the dumb-but-cocky part of romania, famous principally for the "seven wonders of stupidty"

mircea_popescu: including building in a large crane, that couldn't be extracred any longer

asciilifeform: догоним и перегоним америку (tm)(r)

mircea_popescu: (ro used the prefab construction process -- first, send mining equipment, flatten land ; then, put in rail ; then, roll out a rail crane, and roll prefab on cars up to it ; then move the derivation ☟︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: can make 1mn sqm of hruscheba per week with this

mircea_popescu: aha.

asciilifeform: ( in usa hruscheba is build in ~week or 2, as they make from cardboard )

mircea_popescu: these were the original prefab, poured concrete.

mircea_popescu: 20 tons per panel or somesuch.

asciilifeform: well yes, as seen in literally erry place other than usa and perhaps jp )

asciilifeform: ( in montevideo asciilifeform saw perfectly on-spec hruschebas , panels & all )

mircea_popescu: aha.

mircea_popescu: aanyways, shall bbl.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832296 << curious what this was about. ... open ssh pipes ? i've yet to see this wonder. dollars to doughnuts it's a shituntu etc box with acpi sleep . ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 16:52 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, apparently "screensaver" on "graphical linux", all flavours, BREAKS OPEN PIPES.

asciilifeform: winblowz style. can kill it either in bios setup or somewhere in the heathen configs.

BingoBoingo: Of all the people who could be sad, the Brasileros are saddest

BingoBoingo: Who would have thought Brasileros could be sad about fraudball?

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832312 << there's no reason, i literally just returned from the walk where i remembered some outstanding things i need to do, that was one of them. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 17:06 mircea_popescu: phf do you remember why ave1 's thing isn't in http://btcbase.org/patches ?

phf: ah yes, i thought there was something else. does his vtron use keccak by the way, or it's still a shasum -a 512 call out?

trinque: as I recall just walks the strings present in that position in the vpatches

trinque: can't say off the top of my head if it works with the keccak ones (oughta), but gotta run for now

trinque: shells out to patch, perhaps the intent there was to end up with an external patch util that understands vpatch hashes. esthlos, maybe shed light? ☟︎

phf: considering the slow adoption of the keccak approach and also a large number of existing sha512 patches, i'm planning on doing a regrind where i merge the keccak and the sha branches together, so that vpatch/vdiff can produce both hashes on a switch, until further notice. ☟︎

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-02#1831298 << unless you have particular preferences, i'm going to throw it into the same patchset as ircbot. it'll follow the grand ircbot tradition of a genesis that never the less relies on the adjacent patches ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-02 12:07 spyked: ^ phf, can you pl0x add this to the btcbase patch list? and http://lucian.mogosanu.ro/src/trilemabot/ ?