log
500+ entries in 0.564s
shinohai: yup. also same one with the single-integer rng bug.
asciilifeform: 'rng bits are expensive' spawned quite a few idiocies , by itself
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 16:14 asciilifeform: ( tldr : superiority of the FUCKGOATS-enabled approach, of get-new-N-bits-from-rng-then-primalitytest-until-done, vs the kochian get-N-bits-then-increment-until-passes-millerrabin )
asciilifeform: ( tldr : superiority of the FUCKGOATS-enabled approach, of get-new-N-bits-from-rng-then-primalitytest-until-done, vs the kochian get-N-bits-then-increment-until-passes-millerrabin )
mircea_popescu: the rng consumption will be significant though.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-14 19:19 asciilifeform: specifically, for every byte you intend to send, you instead send two: x, y. which you generate by obtaining rng byte r, and payload byte b, and x := b xor r, y := r
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:11 asciilifeform: so one ~horrid~ padding algo would be to get a bitstring from my rng, xor the message to it, then send a message of 2x length of original consisting of: [the bitstring from rng][the result of the xor]
a111: Logged on 2017-02-14 19:19 asciilifeform: specifically, for every byte you intend to send, you instead send two: x, y. which you generate by obtaining rng byte r, and payload byte b, and x := b xor r, y := r
asciilifeform: well they still play cards, that get shuffled, just like 500 yrs ago. unless i misunderstood the rng remark.
asciilifeform: so can't be the rng
a111: Logged on 2017-07-22 17:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform reason why extinct is that no longer need deck for rng. which is ~all that was.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform reason why extinct is that no longer need deck for rng. which is ~all that was.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 22:05 asciilifeform: not if you own an rng.
asciilifeform: not if you own an rng.
mircea_popescu: "has no internet connection, and no rng. can still use ?"
asciilifeform: bot node, generally, has nothing like an actual rng.
mircea_popescu: did you read the "whores moaning in orgasmic agony source of rng" thread ?
asciilifeform: ( that, or lovingly crafted bot with delay rng )
asciilifeform: ( statistical tests only reveal broken rng , but never a working one )
asciilifeform: dijkstra's 'testing reveals presence of bugs, but not absence' applies just the same to rng.
asciilifeform: ( for what does this operation use the original values that came out of the rng ? )
mircea_popescu: what do you mean there exists no gold rng ?
asciilifeform: which is frustrating because you can't resort to 'empirical test' here , because circular, there EXISTS NO 'gold rng'
asciilifeform: i thought 'rap' lyrics were officially required to come out of a certified an'sealed shannonizer, like las vegas one armed bandit rng
mircea_popescu: there's no "best use of measurement" for exact same reason there's no "wot best practices", or "ideal rng values"
asciilifeform: the plan 'for broken rng' is to have 7 running from 7 batteries.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one nuance is -- it is folly to plan FOR a broken rng. 'what to do if a shell lands in my trench? jump twenty metres and scatter yerself around'
mircea_popescu is sick of "famous people" like of crab apples. let them sit in some other latrine with their "oh i lost my pgp key 20 years ago" zimmerman and their "i dedicate my life to raising impudent street urchins as if they were white people" bernstein and their "oh hi, rng ?" koch and their "o btw, i lied about that laptop" rms everything else.
mircea_popescu: the above should plainly explain btw (for instance, via asciilifeform 's "beat the ai" game), why rng is absolutely required for sovereign entity to even in principle exist.
asciilifeform: could play same game without leaving home: connect rng to pistol, if fails to produce shitoshi privkey - bang
asciilifeform: 'Sources need to be statistically assessed. The quality of the entropy being produced needs to be estimated so that enough can be released to properly seed the RNG. The dieharder and TESTU01 suites are good but they both require prohibitively large amounts of random data to operate. NIST's SP800-90B tests seem to be statistically sound and have manageable data requirements....' << didjaknow!
mircea_popescu: opposite i mean to the general. like "making rng more complex is silly -- here, use tyhis broken one"
asciilifeform: i.e. a signed(S) could not have practically come into existence before you broadcast S, if the latter is a long rng turd
a111: Logged on 2017-06-14 12:29 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-14#1670142 << this is pure gold, ty for posting, phf . it's rng-nonsense from back when folx were posting ~erudite~ nonsense, rather than the regular redditola snore
a111: Logged on 2017-06-14 12:40 asciilifeform: a sound card rng is considerably better than... none at all. but this is all that can be said for it.
asciilifeform: a sound card rng is considerably better than... none at all. but this is all that can be said for it.
asciilifeform: incidentally at one time quite a few folx, incl. some of the people here, used sound card rng
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-14#1670142 << this is pure gold, ty for posting, phf . it's rng-nonsense from back when folx were posting ~erudite~ nonsense, rather than the regular redditola snore☝︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the koch episode was actually illustrative of the futility of 'just fix /dev/random'. it'd have done ~zero~ against the koch rng poisoning thing.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally astute students of FUCKGOATSology will notice that the principle is applied INSIDE the device as well - FG has nfi what is plugged into rng jacks, actual analogue rng boards or tester jig )
asciilifeform: not to mention a proggy that eats rng oughta be periodically tested using ~known~ bits
asciilifeform: but that the ~correct~ move is proggy that takes a /dev/foo1,/dev/foo2... as command line params and eats rng from ~there~
asciilifeform: gotta luvvv all the nitwits who think that pc has any business being able to talk TO an rng box
asciilifeform: in other noose, the (microscopic) ra-226 ( for MB/s 'gold standard' rng test ) came. asciilifeform was half-convinced that it'd get swallowed by the post
a111: Logged on 2017-06-08 16:43 mircea_popescu: much like you know, all sorts of "rng experts" not merely do not wish, but specifically wish NOT TO examine FG. andf so on.
mircea_popescu: much like you know, all sorts of "rng experts" not merely do not wish, but specifically wish NOT TO examine FG. andf so on.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-23 03:18 asciilifeform: the 'formulate as predictor' came from asciilifeform's ongoing regular stabs at breaking shitoshi's rng.
asciilifeform: if you can 'learn' from rng -- it's a poor rng
mircea_popescu: it'd seem to me the model as described does in fact generate reals properly from rng.
asciilifeform: ( nobody in fact knows how to generate 'uniform float' from rng )
asciilifeform: floats suck mightily, incidentally, especially for 'model reality' or whichever involving rng -- because your uniform rng now becomes a skewed shitsoup because the number line is now unevenly populated
asciilifeform: it was tricky enough to make 'republican rng', an item closer in order of complexity, to a knife or a fork, than to a comp
asciilifeform: another tip : rng shield is an ok place for the gnd clip
asciilifeform: they're why a misbauded FG is nogood as an rng
asciilifeform: mod6: possibly earliest properly logical unmasking of sham rng
asciilifeform: the perhaps worst 'test' ~of a working rng in particular~ is to look at the hex with naked eye
asciilifeform: phf: d00d was always a bit... odd. recall his paper re 'make as little use of rng as possible, because ohnoez it could be subverted' ?
asciilifeform: (problem was , analogue rng's waveform, while meeting the signal voltage constraint, and even the rise/fall time constraints, sometimes does not meet the hold time constraint! and results in metastable state in digital chip it is connected to
asciilifeform: this is also a good time to remind fols, THIS ^^ is the kind of thing 'rng testing' shines in, picking up misconfiguration/catastrophic os retardation/similar
asciilifeform: i encountered this nonsense when i built my very first prototype rng, iirc mircea_popescu even turned the resulting dialogue into a whole post on his www
asciilifeform: in other unshielded rng, https://www.araneus.fi/products/alea2/en/
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 22:47 asciilifeform still finds it interesting that g_l did not ask re the rng sample .
asciilifeform still finds it interesting that g_l did not ask re the rng sample .
asciilifeform: anyway gabriel_laddel_p go to nosuchlabs.com , you will find rng bitz
a111: Logged on 2017-05-24 22:16 asciilifeform: previously i thought that you could not have an auditable single-crystal rng, but possibly this is not so : if you make it so that only co-incident (on 2 detectors) gamma is picked up, you can 'yoke'-audit 2 units by placing back to back around test source.
asciilifeform: the reproducible ~t~rng is a contradiction in terms.
asciilifeform: honest rng maker has 0 to be afraid of from posting arbitrarily large sample.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 17:42 asciilifeform: while we're on subj, i'll say that there is probably a good reason why most commercial faux-rng makers don't offer a sample download.
mircea_popescu: rng is not === crypto
mircea_popescu: i can conceive that i'd trust x to rng more than i'd trust myself, in some conditions.
asciilifeform: but will observe that both sellers of rng bits, and esp. buyers, are a little 'off their rockers' imho.
mircea_popescu: so does signed and encrypted rng sample.
asciilifeform: montecarlo-grade rng bits -- inf.
mircea_popescu: kinda how this works. by the timpe peopple pay bots here for rng, we're simply owning the world and no more. which is why i said maybe premature.
asciilifeform: while we're on subj, i'll say that there is probably a good reason why most commercial faux-rng makers don't offer a sample download.
asciilifeform: microshit's rng has (as of xp3) 0 hardware component.
asciilifeform: iirc also mircea_popescu's technical objections were, imho, intellectually lazy ('pipe fittings will cost their weight in gold, because boat and they can' -- by same token rng MUST cost 10k $, because raytheon's does; 'must drag it to shore to paint bottom' -- also fixable, make the bottom from inconel or hastelloy ; etc )
asciilifeform: fwiw d00d actually works (as academic) on optical rng
asciilifeform: previously i thought that you could not have an auditable single-crystal rng, but possibly this is not so : if you make it so that only co-incident (on 2 detectors) gamma is picked up, you can 'yoke'-audit 2 units by placing back to back around test source.
asciilifeform: single-crystal MB/s rng.
asciilifeform: so far it's pretty hilarious, i build a box that actually solves $problem, and not even close to 'megabestseller', all the meanwhile 'people' paying, supposedly, multi-$k for usg rng.
asciilifeform: the 'formulate as predictor' came from asciilifeform's ongoing regular stabs at breaking shitoshi's rng.
asciilifeform: however there is a number of tests-for-broken-rng. my idea was strictly re an algo for how to measure their actual relevance .
asciilifeform: but function of rng AND enemy. (see ancient thread, 2014ish iirc)
asciilifeform: and yes, this is still same old tests, nothing magically different about them, there will ~never~ be a mechanical test for 'good rng'
asciilifeform: right. output ought be a 'hey schmuck, if you use this rng, i can predict, like-so...'
asciilifeform: say an rng fails the 'birthdays' test.
asciilifeform: let's take concrete example -- if i make a rubbish rng that leads 'ent' to conclude that pi == 4
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-23#1660248 << this ain't the problem -- already right off the bat , sane operator knows that it is physically impossible to test for ~good~ rng, only for ~bad rng~☝︎
asciilifeform: 'purpose' in this sense is not an attribute of the object, but of the object-and-maker system. see also the thread re 'rng entropy'
asciilifeform: gamma rng has certain advantages which cannot be had any other way
asciilifeform: because rng is NOT concerned with accurate photon counts
asciilifeform: (which is no good for rng, for reasons explored in older thread)
asciilifeform: ( any other rng , available for love or money, where this is true ?? )
asciilifeform: same problem with intel's ( probably the most ubiquitous hardware rng )
asciilifeform: Framedragger: re earlier thread : i looked far and wide to possibly buy rng to compare with -- and found nothing worth buying ( no, i won't compare with whitened; i won't pay 20,000 $+ for a box of schematicless ??? ; etc )
asciilifeform: mod6: the thing to compare against would be another UNWHITENED rng.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i ain't particularly interested in testing whitened 't'rng , also
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you still have to pick an X. if machine has no RNG, its picking of X will be weak.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, FG could plug directly into raspberry give it true rng, huh ?