ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-08 03:01:05 spyked: 1947777][did agree] to work on that tho, so would also like to hear from trinque re this
trinque: I'm thinking you and he could turn this into a proper consulting gig if they like what you produce, and I'm happy to manage / advise such an endeavor.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-11-10 08:30:28 diana_coman: they had a few words in #trinque; I've sent lobbes to ask if he can help with cuntoo perhaps too.
trinque: diana_coman: this could mean getting a list of packages you need running on it, if you're willing.
trinque: the idea actually comes from earlier threads on infectious linux, and also on what a sane world would have instead of a web browser
trinque: I am failing to find the appropriate links as yet.
auctionbot: Sell order # 1068: Two switches used in the late Pizarro's server rack; buyer to take possession at his own expense. Heard: 100 from asciilifeform. Ending: 2019-11-15 21:38:56.904013 UTC (84 hours 0 mins)
auctionbot: Sell order # 1074: 1U chassis with two servers and one power supply, one unused 6TB WD Red 3.5" HDD; buyer to take possession at his own expense. Heard: 1mn from asciilifeform. Ending: 2019-11-15 21:40:28.384179 UTC (84 hours 0 mins)
auctionbot: Sell order # 1069: Former Pizarro RockChip Plant, no used USB drives; buyer to take possession at his own expense. Notes. Tools In photo are included for scale as the plant as configured requires more than one rack unit of height to mount. Pliers not included in plant, but screwdriver is negotiable. Heard: 1mn from asciilifeform. Ending: 2019-11-15 21:39:12.652465 UTC (83 hours 53 mins)
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-11 20:25:08 trinque: diana_coman: this could mean getting a list of packages you need running on it, if you're willing.
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-11-05 jfw: Gales Linux is a new distribution, not using Portage or other sort of auto-download and dependency resolution; it's got a set of package build scripts I've developed over time based on my own needs
ossabot: (trinque) 2019-11-03 trinque: need to do a bit of decrufting before I post these, going to wrap it up tomorrow.
diana_coman: I still don't really have any clear idea what trinque has done or wants to do.
mp_en_viaje: that's a good price for a coupla boxes huh.
mp_en_viaje:
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950564 << my only take-away is that trinque does not want to own the tmsr os. whether this is because ye olde manaloning & etc silly habits of boihood are just that hard to break, or for whatever reason. i can't quite discern, seeing how he talks little and mostly besides the point.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 03:51:20 diana_coman:
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950551 - is this going to diverge then ie there's cuntoo and then there's infectious linux and something else or what? I'm rather confused now as to directions; for that matter and for the forum, there's in principle also jfw's
Gales distro if we are at that; I'd rather see the effort focused and coordin
mp_en_viaje: let it be until such a time we can find someone qualified to own it. same place trb is waiting, and so on.
diana_coman: fwiw my take so far is that trinque wants to provide consultancy at most.
mp_en_viaje: anyway, moving on : ave1 what's your lamp shenanigans consist of specifically ? anything substantial enough so that you can retroactively cure your failure to document it such that it might persuasively argue for your qualification to lead this effort ?
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, tell me about this gales thing ?
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: from what I talked to jfw so far (he still has to write it up but there's a long list there of write-ups for him to do!), he made his own distribution with his own scripts for package building; he has it in production in that he uses it for his clients afaik but it doesn't seem to scale well the way it is currently
diana_coman: because any new package one wants would require someone to write the script for it
deedbot: jfw voiced for 30 minutes.
mp_en_viaje: aite, send him over when he wakes, we continue this convo.
mp_en_viaje: i can't imagine how tmsr-os would work such that a package one wants to import wouldn't require some diddling
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-11-05 diana_coman: but at any rate, what's that Gales Linux exactly and how/in what way different from Cuntoo? where/what are your problems there?
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-11-05 diana_coman: but hm, that does sound overall more like your own practice room to know-more-linux than anything else
diana_coman: I'd still have a look at it in more detail.
mp_en_viaje: nfi what that means. echo "echo 'fuck you, world.'" > script.sh produces a script
mp_en_viaje: not a very good one, for instance can't easily turn fuck you, world. into fuck you, world! -- but still, it's a FULL script
diana_coman: heh, I doubt it's *that little*; anyways, I'd certainly rather see it in detail by now, yes.
mp_en_viaje: the problem here is that EVERYTHING -- meaning, ~~~EEEEEEVERYTHING~~~ is rather a "homework" exercise than any kinda serious effort.
mp_en_viaje: because for their sins computers were born after the capacity for serious activity died in the esltard. so it's all comicon all over, "this is some doodle i made please don't hate me" psychoweird.
mp_en_viaje: crystal space was made in this manner. internet explorer (all versions) was made in this manner. the original firefox was made in this manner, and then retired in this manner. and everything .
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: re "his clients", they are meant to write up and publish by this Sunday their existing business plan and whatever other related documents they have.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 07:08:35 mp_en_viaje: what is "his clients" ?
diana_coman: basically they still need some time to publish now what they didn't all this time and only then we can discuss in more detail really
diana_coman: this is why I didn't mention it earlier really; because there are still some things to sort out first.
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: re
moving cs I had a look in more detail at the situation there: there are 3k lines of autoconf script to start with; this looks for all sorts and takes care of various cases including differences (re where is what) between linux distros
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 11:47:54 mircea_popescu: so i suppose this is the first actionable we unveil here : ima want an estimate on a) how long to divorce dev server from cs ; and b) how long to move client cs on cuntoo.
diana_coman: and moreover, it checks to see which cs deps are available because part of issue with cs is that it doesn't even have a clear list of deps: it depends what plugins and what they want
mp_en_viaje: listen, most of that is ditch-able, because we have little intention to support open-ended "plugin" style architectures.
mp_en_viaje: this was a horrifyingly bad idea of the "oject oriented" crowd, back in the late 90s.
diana_coman: yes but where the fuck does one start from to figure out which parts are actually needed and how they interact?
mp_en_viaje: i don't imagine we'll be able to ditch autoconf in principle, until many years later, many years AFTER tmsr-os is a thing
diana_coman: the additional thing there being also that some of the deps are really system dependent at least so far so they'd need to be extracted (if possible!) as static libs themselves and bundled up and by the end of it I'll probably end up with tmsr-os I suppose.
mp_en_viaje: i really don't currently see the payoff for putting work into making it static
mircea_popescu: * pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu :is now your hidden host (set by services.) << fucken nonsense, i never noticed before tey fucked my name.
trinque: mk, "manage lobbes and spyked to make s.mg an OS" except don't do that at all, and also manalone bois and etc.
hanbot: mircea_popescu huzzah, ty!
mircea_popescu: as an aside, i very much dislike the ambiguous relationship to the republic, along the lines of "check out my son, he got 1st prize in drag racing" / "have you heard what your son's done, he got himself expelled!!!" traditional intramarital passive-agressive idiocy.
mircea_popescu: what, it's only the republic when it pays, otherwise it's "mp's folly" or somesuch ? a lot less of this in the
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 09:30:33 trinque: mk, "manage lobbes and spyked to make s.mg an OS" except don't do that at all, and also manalone bois and etc.
mircea_popescu: sense of exactly none at all will work splendidly well, and alternatives ain't available.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 23:32:29 mircea_popescu: trinque, suppose spyked's game, and what you have to do is run the two fellows + whatever we can meaningfully accrete through the tmsr-ization of cuntoo.
mircea_popescu: half-ass commitments, plausibly-deniable commitments & the whole charade of alfisms are no longer something i will accept -- for the sore experience of how poorly it works when i do accept them.
mircea_popescu: so try and get off your nonsense horse for the like third time this year, learn how to meaningfully communicate AND DO IT, we might have something here. but in any case the something we will have will NOT be linear extension of the alf shit. i ain't ever again doing anything like that.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 23:47:13 mircea_popescu: suppose you talk to both fellas here about the thing, i wanna follow along
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 23:48:38 trinque: totally fine by me
mircea_popescu: da fuck's next, mod6 's patented "let's pass a gpg'd tarball back and forth" ?
mircea_popescu: the point of the republic is for you to look at how stupid you are AND STOP BEING IT.
mircea_popescu: the republic can't be used in ANY OTHER WAY. eminently, it CAN NOT be used as ANY KIND of "how to stay stupid" guide. nor will this fundamental inadherence ever be capable of being turned around, "oh, mp is a meaniehead, stupidity is where it's at". nor ANYTHING other than the intended fucking purpose.
diana_coman: in other lolz, I contacted yet another local dc and the guy went to read my blog so I pointed him to
the rundown on it; rather curious now what'll he do, lolz.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 07:09:11 mp_en_viaje: aite, send him over when he wakes, we continue this convo.
jfw: It's a Linux distro I put together, in a couple stages, based on gcc 4.7, musl, busybox userland, exclusively static linking
jfw: dorion and I have a few consulting clients that are learning linux/unix for the first time. We use the distribution ourselves for niches it's able to fill, and we considered it a good learning environment due to avoiding various complexities
mircea_popescu: so it's basically a training tool, as far as that goes, a didactic example
dorion: mircea_popescu I'm present as well, able to fill in where needed.
jfw: I've found it quite usable for things like trb node, airgapped gpg machine, basic VPS (though no LAMP stack presently)
jfw: so, was not originally intended as training tool I think is what I'm saying.
jfw: I've manually done a linux kconfig, as one might on gentoo w/o genkernel
mircea_popescu: traditionally the problem with private distros is that one day someone tries to install int on some new hardware mix-and-match and it dun go
jfw: indeed, we've been restrictive about hardware so far
mircea_popescu: this is what i'm asking, what's the extension process like
jfw: tweaking the 'menuconfig' is what that would look like as far as kernel components
mircea_popescu: so you basically just import w/e drivers redhat or w/e is using ?
jfw: Using stock kernel.org kernel, but sure there's RedHat code in there
mircea_popescu: so as a purely theoretical exericse, what'd gaining x support entail iyo ?
dorion: mircea_popescu we've been using kernel 4.9.95, which is what bvt genesis'd.
jfw: I've built a basic X stack (no 3d accel) on dynamic-linked musl, the biggest uncertainty to me there is whether it'll work static since it's module-oriented
jfw: With proprietary drivers like nvidia?
jfw: I expect that'd be quite difficult, its libGL is a glibc-based .so
mircea_popescu: do i have to throw out gales if i decide to use graphics as a given necessity or don't i
jfw: far as I know you would
mircea_popescu: so, someone says, "i want companionship in my life". this is the general problem.
mircea_popescu: man 1 comes and says, "hi, i have a solution to this. i call it 'dog'. it's very companionable."
mircea_popescu: "well... but is it loyal ?" quite very loyal. "how about having children ? i think i want chilndren too".
mircea_popescu: you can't have children with a dog, it is necessarily out of the question.
mircea_popescu: man 2 comes and says "hullo... i have anothe rsolution. i call it 'a virgin'. she's a bitch to get along with, but..."
mircea_popescu: "well... is it loyal ?" not really. "how about having children ?" actually, i think she might be already pregnant.
mircea_popescu: in case 1, you know for a fact it won't be possible to have gfx with your thing, it has to be thrown out / redone / the thing that can do gfx can't carry the same name as your thing meaningfully.
jfw: I would think it's 1, as perhaps the driver could be made to work with massive compatibility layers but then the distro wouldn't look much like it does now.
mircea_popescu: so this'd basically be a server thing, by its nature, rather than a general purpose os
mircea_popescu: isn't it awkward to not have lamp ready in that context ?
jfw: Yes, well server or other text-only usage. It is awkward.
jfw: Not as yet; first priority was to make it public, see if there was any interest
mircea_popescu: so when you say customers or w/e, is this more of a manner of speaking ?
jfw: they've paid, and I've delivered code. It's not public in the sense of not published on web
mircea_popescu: but is this a registered corp ? or some kind of informal arrangement among friends ?
mircea_popescu: and so the customers who've paid and you've delivered code to, were they basically doing what's caled it consulting in the us, ie, outsourced desk jockey to skimp on the pension & benefits plan ? do they think they own the code you've delivered, for instance ?
jfw: as I understand V, he who operates the computer owns the code
mircea_popescu: what, you delviered to said customers a bundle of v-patches /
jfw: source tarballs, though there's a TRB too.
mircea_popescu: i asked you if ~they think~ they own the code, not if god does.
jfw: I see. They don't know enough about the code to meaningfully own it, and afaik they know this.
mircea_popescu: it's not an idle question on my part. there's actually reflected in the very history of the republic as logged, the case of some dude showing up years later to push ridoinculous claims. look for grubbles sometime.
mircea_popescu: so you know, come 2025, is there some durbles gonna show up "oh, gales was really developed by outside help for my corp!!!"
jfw: dorion, do you recall if this is possible based on what we wrote in the consulting agreement?
dorion: mircea_popescu at this point, we have high trust with those it's been shared with. we're young hands in part because we're unclear about to properly approach such problems.
jfw: people can claim things, but the facts as I understand them are that I developed the system on my own, and they did not purchase any ownership in it.
mircea_popescu: dorion, yes, well, i'm not young hands ; and i'll tell you what anyone in a similar position will tell you : code made to oder and not published is generally suspect of being, at least in the view of some party somewhere, their property.
mircea_popescu: not that this generally does anything. but it's also never a bad idea to be plain with people.
jfw: ty mircea_popescu, underscores the importance of getting it published.
jfw: I looked over trinque's blog posts about it but have not looked inside.
jfw: well, I already had my thing working and thought myself to have other priorities
jfw: which was all upside-down because showing up here should have been first.
mircea_popescu: counting ave1 s putative item, this promises to be three not-quite-usable, not-so-published identical reworks of the same damned thing.
jfw: it strikes me as wasteful.
dorion: mircea_popescu point taken, thank you. jfw reviewing the contract, Gales Linux is described as your original software, but I don't know the legal standing of that claim.
mircea_popescu: if there's one million engineer bois out there, and if the destiny of an engineer boi is to make an os, worth 100k man-hours, and if they never talk to each other, the result will be 7-800k empty boxes containing no os, but three to four figure wasted hours.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 03:51:20 diana_coman:
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950551 - is this going to diverge then ie there's cuntoo and then there's infectious linux and something else or what? I'm rather confused now as to directions; for that matter and for the forum, there's in principle also jfw's
Gales distro if we are at that; I'd rather see the effort focused and coordin
mircea_popescu: kinda why i don't give the first flying fuck how many retard bois "get upset" or whatever, the demons/voices/their mom tells them to choke on chodes.
mircea_popescu: if 1% of 1% of the million can be convinced to be fucking sane, that's already enough people to finish the damn thing already.
jfw: I don't dispute, and am here to work towards sanity & killing stupidity.
mircea_popescu: so what is your commitment towards this thing ? kinda like a fun weekend project, or what is it ?
jfw: I've committed fully to diana_coman's mentorship, a big part of which is because I want to be useful in the republic generally.
mircea_popescu: how long have you two known each other ? with dorion i mean ?
mircea_popescu: well, so would an arrangement whereby you work with other people to develop a workable tmsr os work for you then ?
jfw: My understanding from earlier cuntoo thread is someone needs to step up to *own* the project; to be clear, I doubt I'd be prepared for such a thing right now, but yes it works for me to work with other people.
mircea_popescu: i'm trying to work something out re both ownership and manpower.
jfw: good then. Is there a particular level of time commitment you're looking for on the OS project as far as manpower?
mircea_popescu: i was rather gonna ask what you feel comfortable with on the mid term
mircea_popescu: dorion, is your interest rather in the pm side of things ? or are you tryina learn how to code as well ?
jfw: my schedule seems pretty packed at least through the end of 2019, perhaps at that point I could make something like 20 hours per week, will have to consider
jfw: mircea_popescu: nothing coming to mind.
dorion: mircea_popescu I think my strength at present it more on the pm side and communicating to non-technical people why they should take interest in sane computing. Part of my role has been bring people for jfw to teach. With that being said, I am interested in improving my technical skills.
mircea_popescu: i think either line can be pursued, either we attach you to whoever's in charge as an administrative trainee or else you get piecemeal tasks on the tech side.
dorion: right now I'd take the former because I think I'd be more useful in a shorter period of time.
mircea_popescu: there;s oodlebunches of work in a large project that don't involve scrutinizing arcana
mircea_popescu: lobbes, how long till i get to testrun that delivery!!! i'm leaving for the orient in a few weeks you realise!
dorion: mircea_popescu thank you.
jfw: I do think that would play more to dorion's strengths & interests though I've certainly appreciated his efforts in learning tech
mircea_popescu: spyked, what sorta time could you commit on a weekly basis, if this tmsr os megaproject actually gets going ?
mircea_popescu: jfw, hey, it's a free slavery thing, people can do their own part
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to shoehorn him into the wrong hole if i can help it
jfw: hehe. thanks for the time & feedback
mircea_popescu: and both ave1 an' trinque have qs pending, so that completes tonight's session.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, if worst comes to worst i guess ima have you manage this for 'em.
diana_coman: fwiw I wouldn't shoehorn anyone into more tech; maybe the opposite, if anything.
mircea_popescu: only as a temporary measure if anything. help them build a solid basis upon which to properly disdain the engineers.
mircea_popescu: otherwise there's significant risk of taking the maniacs at their word.
diana_coman: there is actually even worse, an initial "reverence" , ugh
diana_coman: at times further fed by the sort of despicable "muh secretz" expert, ugh.
lobbes: mircea_popescu: how would you like to testrun? If you just want to play with the demo connected to my testblog, I can simply bring the bot into #t sometime tonight
lobbes: re tmsr os, so it seems we have manpower waiting to commit; just need someone to commit to ownership
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu jfw dorion diana_coman lobbes: thank you for the clean, clear, logs
mircea_popescu: bvt, once done fixing the kernel rng, you wana join in this fray by the way ?
mircea_popescu: conceivablt mocky also shows up, we have a great ole party.
lobbes: mircea_popescu: well, I was under the assumption you'd get a box with a trilema copy, and then I'd stand up bot on said box
lobbes: but I'm open to suggestions
diana_coman: it's ok, "we have" the manpower waiting to commit there and all it takes is just someone to commit to ownership.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: he seems to just need someone to commit to ownership of the thing he did, lolz
diana_coman: I'm just applying his previous great-sentence since it's such a catch-all, lolz.
lobbes: mircea_popescu: I'm good to begin installation if you do get box. I'm still looking into getting proper "echo of blog lines" created, but the rest of the bot is ready
mircea_popescu: ok. as a preliminary step, ima publish old logs on trilema, so they're in the db, so they get transferred automatically.
lobbes: well, I mean the 'new' logs wouldn't start until bot is live anyways.
mircea_popescu: you hafta, i mean... i haven't been keeping local logs since travelling etc.
lobbes: ah gotcha, okay in that case I'll need to create some log converter
lobbes: well, my logs to the mysql db
mircea_popescu: yes but how is the bot gonna post going forward ? you already have that converter don't you ?!
lobbes: yeah, I have my logger, which goes back to (/me goes to check)
lobbes: it posts the raw IRC lines to the blog article as it sees them, yes
mircea_popescu: i thought we had a discussion re formats at some point, was gonna bold names and whatnot. was it in my dreams ?
lobbes: what I mean, is that output takes input directly from IRC and then does the formatting. Not like it is reading local logs I have saved
lobbes: so yeah, not much work but I just need to tweak the 'conversion'
mircea_popescu: and also... fuck. no timestamp at all, i actually came up with thsi shit ?
lobbes: small difference ! : P
lobbes: yeah, no timestamps in orig spec iirc
mircea_popescu: this is stupid, if mp-wp becomes the de facto platform we'll be stuck with timeless logs. ;/
lobbes: but I don't mind adding if you want. This is your thing afterall
mircea_popescu: i don't think seconds are meaningful, irc is not resolvable to a second resolution anyway
lobbes: oh oh , you DID add the hourly delimiters tho
mircea_popescu: also, <font color=gray>[hh:mm]</font> plox. light colored
lobbes: Alrighty, good meeting. I've my takeaways of things to knock out. Will keep mircea_popescu apprised
mircea_popescu: cool. the only thing is... i'd like a distant server. where do you currently host ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: He already became a Northern Hemisphere problem. Also landed in the other hotter, drier (zebu cattle) guay.
BingoBoingo: If he was headed this way, Mexican embassy is close but he probably would have just stopped for asylumn here until at least March when the new government swears in
lobbes: mircea_popescu, I'm currently using
colocation america but the jury is still out on them imo. They are very responsive and accommodating, but I'm only renting a server from them (have not tried actual colocation)
lobbes: mircea_popescu: I can't see any reasons why not. Sure thing. I'll reach out to them
mircea_popescu: not like you're not gonna be stuck maintaing this forever anyway, so... migh as well :D
BingoBoingo can't recall a single log day with this much signal and so little noise
mircea_popescu: lobbes, so, to be practical here : put the log you have through the works, then we can see ot ?
lobbes: mircea_popescu: ok, is just putting it on my testblog for now acceptable?
lobbes: kk, that'll be the next item I tackle then
BingoBoingo: Aite, bunch deedbot transactions coming through!
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BingoBoingo: !!v 3A9EAAF7B26132A92029BF33278474BFC0314ABAEBA9AC4CDC0CA9B57DB78439
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid whaack 0.0108
BingoBoingo: !!v 8073F56EF1BD0834545CC17FFF365EEA659693C2F989DB53E8E7A9B08E185CE1
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid danielpbarron 0.0126
BingoBoingo: !!v B2D07EEEA73E10D2ECB97F4D5D22AD1710D19E44BEE7035EDB93BB075DAF51A6
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid diana_coman 0.10491609
BingoBoingo: ^ This should cover the debts and customer equity. This leaves the auction completion and shareholder equity following from that on the to do list.
BingoBoingo: Unless more claimants come forward by 23:59:59 UTC, November 30th, 2019