tmsr - Log 2019-08-23

asciilifeform suspects that they were orig. encoded in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-15#1928981 and thereby didn't even get into lobbes's db

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 21:23:52 asciilifeform: 'I mean literally, the guy's from Washitistan, they write things with their own excrement there, and the Unicode Foundation introduced actual excrement in the standard so now whenever someone asks for the networking code in your project they are delivered physical faeces on cardboard. About fifty eight acres of it. Where would you like this put, sir ?' (tm)(r)(mp)

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, lobbes , et al : prolly could easily purge ~100% of spam, simply by detecting these. lemme know if you want.

asciilifeform: going by informal walk via 'random' button -- that spamola is a substantial % of the archive, by mass

asciilifeform: ( the washitistan ??!?? + the randomly quoted lines from unknown heathen chans, + possibly other shannonized crapola )

asciilifeform: archives remaining to import : #a ( if ben_vulpes turns up, i'd like to use his mimisbrunnr log to close the gaps; otherwise will use own znc ) ; #p ( again ditto )

asciilifeform: aaand of course 'era 1' of #t ( already discussed in orig. thread on trilema ) .

asciilifeform: aaand the db dump has been triggered manually ( it takes approx 10sec ) , in case anyone wants to get his hands on the updated db Right Nao .

asciilifeform: thinkin' about it moar -- mircea_popescu et al, if you wanna nix the spamola, simplest way is to import the db and sort the users, there's i think 100 or so spamola nicks , could simply drop'em if want.

asciilifeform doesn't give a damn in either direction, the archive doesn't weigh even within order of magnitude enuff to impact overall speed of indexing in any detectable way

trinque: do I start railing back about how this merry band is still relying on freenode for infrastructure or what

trinque: more broadly, the question isn't so much what I could do with whatever IRC bot, it's what the hell should motivate me to sink more time into shit caked atop the thing I wish to see end.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 20:38:48 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG lobbes et al : the #e archive created earlier by lobbes , is now imported into http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/eulora . as usual plox to report any oddities .

trinque: the thing's literally built atop tcp which supposedly has "connections" and it wants this ping/pong mechanism atop. ask me how many more hours of my life I wish to dedicate to this duck cunt that just wants a bit more.

trinque: fuck me, drop the pretense and get on facebook messenger or w/e the kids use and be done with it

trinque: bringing things in closer, apparently phf's in the hospital or something, and is thus persona non grata?

asciilifeform: trinque: i may be able to help w / bot ( would like a working cl bot at any rate ). how current is the published src ( that i used in pehbot ) ?

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930229 << ftr i agree entirely with this , but -- did write bot, when mp blew into the bugle, sometimes gotta be done

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:38:59 trinque: more broadly, the question isn't so much what I could do with whatever IRC bot, it's what the hell should motivate me to sink more time into shit caked atop the thing I wish to see end.

asciilifeform: trinque: i cannot resist to wonder if the problem is in the hoster -- iirc deedbot used to stand up for weeks at a time , in earlier days

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930234 << near as i can tell , mp drilled him a new arse and consigned him to штрафбат for cowering in a cave for yr+ , rather than for sitting in hospital. ( see also mp's 'nickel' article )

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:51:18 trinque: bringing things in closer, apparently phf's in the hospital or something, and is thus persona non grata?

asciilifeform: trinque: from the (very fragmentary) clues , seems to me that fella was demoralized somehow, for long time ( and possibly into bottle, tho tbf nothing specifically pointed to bottle )

asciilifeform: trinque: re 'irc, wish to see end' -- i also balked, but turns out even this chore had some interesting wtf-discoveries lying in wait, e.g. the apparently massive nonflatness of net lag topology

lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930218 << 'tis mircea_popescu's chan, so his call. Though I imagine there is reason to keep them (e.g. maybe one day in the future someone wants to make a post re: "hey remember how IRC sucked?"). Point being: it was logged, so it is in the logs.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 20:51:35 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, lobbes , et al : prolly could easily purge ~100% of spam, simply by detecting these. lemme know if you want.

asciilifeform: lobbes: aha. i made no attempt to clean out the spamola, it will remain unless mircea_popescu asks ' drop xyz where... ' etc

asciilifeform: trinque: potentially could use my wartime bot, but it doesn't do asynchronous sends

asciilifeform: ( when set out to write it, asciilifeform looked at coupla dozen published heathen bots, but threw'em all out, the smallest were still 1000+ ln for no detectable reason )

asciilifeform: decided in the end that it is easier to pour a cup of tea an' write one from 0, than to wade through the rubbishes

asciilifeform: ( if anyone wants to put async-sends in mine, the natural place to do so is imho where recv() times out, pop (nonblockingly) string from a queue and speak() . )

asciilifeform: ^ that way dun need any locking, no async speed will ever take place during a 'pong' or a synchronous reply to command.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930209 << it's likely this is because they got re-encoded on his end ; it's also the case nobody gives a shit.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 20:45:51 asciilifeform: hrm, correctly but with exception of certain spam lol

mircea_popescu: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-09-22.log.html << maybe not, his logger shows most of them.

mircea_popescu: whatevers.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930218 << nah. notice how these didn't exist on trilema except when specifically quoted. i let it go in eulora intentionally.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 20:51:35 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, lobbes , et al : prolly could easily purge ~100% of spam, simply by detecting these. lemme know if you want.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930229 << you ever saw a ratchet work ?

mircea_popescu: it's this device that transforms inca (circular motion) into republic (linear motion) by the principle of only permitting rotary motion in one direction, thereby using the inca mass against itself.

mircea_popescu: so long as we don't exceed it by mass, it'll be the correct approach.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930228 << this is definitely a good q. /me goes to see on thetarpit.org, when's publishing scheduled.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:29:11 trinque: or alternatively, where's my patch spyked ?

mircea_popescu: spyked, you know, it occurs to me your workplan is fundamentally weak in that it includes no "will genesis material / publish patches". am i guessing right in that the next edition, seeing how week 35 is just about the corner, will include prior plan performance review and that ?

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930232 << but why duck ?!

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:48:34 trinque: the thing's literally built atop tcp which supposedly has "connections" and it wants this ping/pong mechanism atop. ask me how many more hours of my life I wish to dedicate to this duck cunt that just wants a bit more.

spyked: mircea_popescu, why should the output of weekly work be necessarily genesis? for now, it's a review of coad; the review will be followed by a genesis, as stated.

mircea_popescu: not necessarily. but you're running eg feedbot, you make improvements to it, nobody gets to see.

mircea_popescu: this strikes you as desirable ?

spyked: well, I made the last and only mod to it since http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08c-feedbot-iii.html yesterday; I am going to add it to the queue as it comes, right now I'm sticking to the current plan.

mircea_popescu: yes, that wasn't in discussion. but the current plan takes you to week 35, after which comes week 36 and a new plan ?

spyked: there is a longer term plan that I have at http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/090-tmsr-work-ii.html , but experience shows that usually changes.

mircea_popescu: and it'll include feedbot genesis / patches ?

spyked: e.g. right now the plan for september is to get thetarpit comments and new logger.

mircea_popescu: so is the idea feedbot gets abandoned a la lobbes' orig bot ?

spyked: mircea_popescu, no. feedbot is patched upon ircbot, not genesized (as per earlier log discussion), i.e. http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08a-feedbot-i.html ; http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08b-feedbot-ii.html ; http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08c-feedbot-iii.html ; this was planned to be the complete code, but sure, I'm testing the changes that I made and will publish a patch for it.

spyked: just didn't get to report in this month's report, because it happened yesterday.

mircea_popescu: look, it's no great mystery i don't think, but in any case, here's what i do : i read the log, line by line, in order. currently i'm processing line http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930228

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:29:11 trinque: or alternatively, where's my patch spyked ?

mircea_popescu: now help me out here. is the answer "late aug/early sept i will publish my sept workplan which'll include a date at which i intend to publish the answer to that q" ?

spyked: mircea_popescu, yes, sorry for the confusion. the plan is to: post hunchentoot ep. 6 today, as per plan; and as september begins, post the plan for next month, which should include all the new things I'm working on (code, reviews of code, whatever arises in the meanwhile)

mircea_popescu: including an answer for trinque, as to, where's his patch. aite.

mircea_popescu: oh yes, and some kind of evaluation of the prev plan.

spyked: mircea_popescu, tbh I find that to be a particularly cheeky question, since I asked him the same on more than one occasion and was greeted with silence.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-07-25 03:30:20 spyked: trinque, could you pl0x share the ircbot auto-reconnect code that you're testing? I wanna give it a spin myself and give some time to ironing out whatever problems I might find.

mircea_popescu: spyked, so why not tell him that lol.

mircea_popescu: a a. aite.

mircea_popescu: i'm guessing i'll get to it later lol.

spyked: but decided to answer your q first I was here and prolly keeping you waiting would be frustrating

mircea_popescu: why tyvm.

mircea_popescu: moving on through the list of slightly dissociated questions : http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930234 << iirc he was declaring self outpatient by aug 9th ; but yes persona non grata here, as per

mircea_popescu: "Needless to say, I am unamused ; and, to answer the original inquiry in firmer terms containing no ifs or buts : no, I personally have no further interest in hearing what phf may have to say on any topic. The time for "ok then, I will get my logger to spec by X date and hope to have my blog up by Y date" came and went, sometime yesterday.

mircea_popescu: The time to whine about "what it all means" etcetera is henceforth, 'till forever."

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:51:18 trinque: bringing things in closer, apparently phf's in the hospital or something, and is thus persona non grata?

mircea_popescu: i don't intend to negrate him, as things stand, so you're more than welcome to explore wonderful world detailed in the further paragraphs of that comment.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930233 << i dun really get what this is about, but anyways.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:49:13 trinque: fuck me, drop the pretense and get on facebook messenger or w/e the kids use and be done with it

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930241 << rather's the case, dude watched so much seinfeld he's so very firmly committed to non-committal he'll very happily die of it just to make a point "to the world". whatevers.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 22:40:51 asciilifeform: trinque: from the (very fragmentary) clues , seems to me that fella was demoralized somehow, for long time ( and possibly into bottle, tho tbf nothing specifically pointed to bottle )

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930246 << and if you're going to stick it into cunt, what point has penis ? wtf q is this.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 23:59:49 trinque: if I'm going to bolt znc to it, what point has a lisp bot?

mircea_popescu: the sticking is the very point.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930247 << actually, they do.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 00:00:09 trinque: they have python ones that don't need any such prosthetic

mircea_popescu: spyked, i'm starting to suspect, incidentally, that no cheekiness is involved, he simply never saw either instance, does something like two hours/week keeping track of things, and if that week has 25 hours' worth of logs and developments, well, gets 8%. hey trinque, are you current with the logs ? how descriptive is that model /

spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930226 <-- to be clear, discussion was re. rss bot, which is built atop trinque's bot. I made the mistake of having a long-running operation on the main bot thread, which is the same thread that handles pongs and does lag tracking. imho the fault was 100% in the feedbot coad, but if deedbot

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:25:26 trinque: wtf lol, how would the bot spend a lot of time in the notification mechanism?

spyked: mircea_popescu, that might be. also, my verbose style of writing reports dun help any

mircea_popescu: yes, but the idea is that "let whoever signed the genesis evaluate your patches, rather than do it for them through the venue of keeping them phf'd"

spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930228 <-- until I get proper patches published, here's an idea: 1. abolish "ping-thread" from ircbot; 2. instead, set up a ping handler for the bot, and have it respond with pong; this has the disadvantage that there's no more lag tracking, but it's simpler. proof-of-concept patch: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/LohMF/?raw=true

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:29:11 trinque: or alternatively, where's my patch spyked ?

spyked: I'm still testing this in #spyked, it seems to be working so far, e.g. >1wk uptime for test-spykedbot: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/spyked/2019-08-23#1000120

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-16 13:36:19 spyked: ^ ftr, this is an instance of ircbot sans the "pinger" thread and handling pings coming from the server. seems to be working fine (tho, in all fairness, so does feedbot for now)

mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem wiht ideas is that they're not patches.

spyked: mircea_popescu, I completely agree. fwiw, I can genesis hunchentoot next thing if somebody asks for it. but would rather have the thing reviewed first, a propos of: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930229 . IMHO gotta document it, so that I don't make the same mistakes when I attempt a sane http replacement

mircea_popescu: why first ? think you about it, how is the review supposed to work ?

mircea_popescu: somebody decides to spend some time towards reviewing. what do they do next ?

spyked: mircea_popescu, as I understand the meaning of signature is "I understand how this thing works". if I sign it before reviewing it, there's nothing to show re. my understanding. am I getting this wrong?

mircea_popescu: this understanding is current as of cca 2016. meanwhile we agreed that because a) it is preferrable to work with republican rather than imperial items and to prevent more imperial seepage than needed ; and because b) there's no limit to signature count as per long standing observations and discussions (with a very early asciilifeform cca 2013 maybe) then therefore the correct approach is to sign things early, to get them i

mircea_popescu: nto v infrastructure, and to use non-main keys for this.

mircea_popescu: make yourself a spyked-genesises-stolen-crap sig, use that.

mircea_popescu: win.

spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930246 <-- sooner or later /me is going to dive into sbcl, where he expects to find much of the rot that plagues e.g. python. so wut diff does it make?

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 23:59:49 trinque: if I'm going to bolt znc to it, what point has a lisp bot?

spyked: upstack re erlang: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930095 <-- imho doesn't sound bad at all, given that e.g. feedbot threads communicate exactly through this type of message queue. meanwhile, I notice that there's a "lisp-flavoured erlang" dialect on teh interwebz, but no idea if worth looking into it

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 12:19:27 asciilifeform: imho would be 9000x better to simply steal the technique and port to e.g. cmucl .

mircea_popescu: meanwhile in archeological lulz, http://ossasepia.com/2011/07/31/sonet-ultramodern/

mircea_popescu: hey diana_coman where's that article about google!

mircea_popescu: where you were ranting about how it sucks, doesn't even give 5 of its claimed 5bn results, what reason could anyone have to believe the count

mircea_popescu: meanwhile in further archeology, quid quodcumque faciemus, nomina nuda tenemus. trilema dixit!

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, srlsy ? the core of the argument was that google lists a supposed number of results, in the bns, but it never disgorges any significant count

diana_coman: hm, I *do* remember the idea but not having properly ranted on it (granted, I tend to forget it if I have a good rant over it, lol)

mircea_popescu: lol. kinda the purpose of a good rand

mircea_popescu: btw, don't you find the titles-only style for archives / categories better ?

mircea_popescu: takes for fucking ever to scroll through otherwose

diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I do; and a few other bits that are on the list to change but on which I kept thinking "there will be a mp-wp theme" and then can tweak; hm, who was it, billymg ?

diana_coman: tbh with categories also I start wondering if it's working at all or in fact it's still tags more useful anyway, without the pretense of neat and strict classification

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, yeah i think he's working on it.

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, so what, autgen the tags ?

mircea_popescu: i confess among the papers on my desk there's some various aproaches at word-distance and otherwise auto-tagging

mircea_popescu: ~clear to me too that categories aren't worth while.

diana_coman: the exact approach/algo is the iffy bit re tags but probably won't be able to just come up with it directly working great

mircea_popescu: on one hand, something simple like "tag each article with the 12 most frequently occuring live words over 3 characters long ; keep a central list of "dead" words that occur in more than x% of articles, re-tag all articles tagged with one of the words there"

mircea_popescu: on the other hand, something complex, involving linkage and actual attempts at "ai" sesne-making... well

mircea_popescu: imo a correct tagging mechanism is the one item missing from http://trilema.com/2019/what-is-a-blog-complete-spec-inside/

diana_coman: I would start with something rather simple indeed; and review it, initially it's really a sort of learning wtf in there because I have no idea atm how useful the tags produced would be

mircea_popescu: another approach is to just generate the list of most common words on trilema, pick the best ones, and tag with them all the articles that contain them

mircea_popescu: this augments the ai with human mind, but then again also limits it -- you won't find what you didn't put in.

mircea_popescu: eg the trilema article i quoted above : i had fully forgotten about. not in the sense that i don't recognize it when i see it, i do, but in the sense that when i penned http://trilema.com/2019/black-or-white-the-day-of-saturday/ which needed it, i did recall to put it in. i've meanwhile corrected this and added the link, but i am certain there's THOUSANDS of such "actually mp, the item you'd link here is this" "oh shit you

mircea_popescu: 're right"

mircea_popescu: and needless to say, this bothers me immensely.

mircea_popescu: nah was recent and in english

mircea_popescu: however you turn this matter around, yes categories make no sense, if you wanted super-titles you'd do chapters. and tags ONLY make sense as the converse to search terms, "here's the words you might wish to search trilema for"

mircea_popescu: search words are "i know the searcher but not the material, here's soem clues' whereas tags are "i know the material but not the seacher, here's some clues"

mircea_popescu: i dun really see any other workable approach.

diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I agree re categories and tags; fwiw I also think that tags should reflect the material as it was put in; basically if one wants to categorize content differently, then they can make their own manual/automated/mixed/whatever tagger and apply it, providing their own view of the content

mircea_popescu: imo tags have to evolve with the blog

diana_coman: they do, as they reflect the material put in; but I don't see a problem with a third person deciding to categorize trilema with whatever tags they think greatest and provide the resulting tags + links as their view of it, what

mircea_popescu: that's why nobody has a working system : 1. any meaningful interpretation of "categories" reduces to "tags", so even though implementations give "the choice" it is a dud choice ; and 2. any meaningful implementation of tags requires they change with the blog, whereas every implementation presumes to enter them at the time of publishing (which coincidentally but harmfully overlaps with the "don't alter history" imperative)

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, i mean, that by your writing article 19, the tags of article 2 change

diana_coman: by writing that article I add to the knowledge my blog reflects i.e. to my public knowledge if you prefer

mircea_popescu: well, there's no system that currently does this, recalculates the whole cloud tag and each article's tags on each new article published

mircea_popescu: yes, may.

mircea_popescu: basically, each article's tags' lease on life is "until another article is published".

mircea_popescu: can be extended a thousand times, and then broken.

mircea_popescu: yup.

mircea_popescu: i suppose nobody wrote enough since the dawn of the digital age for this need to appear and be conceptualized

mircea_popescu: in any case -- the part where categories are useless, tags are where it's at, and they must be recalc'd every article publish is clear. the part where HOW to calculate them in the first place, that's unclear.

mircea_popescu: and yes, we'll prolly have to hack soemthing togethet to find this out

mircea_popescu: but personally, i'm waiting for billymg to emerge, out of his current work. if nothing's clear by then, we can hack. but before, no real benefit, all downsides.

diana_coman: arguably there are all those projects (like perseus even, perhaps?) where they worked precisely on "lots of digital content how to make it digitally-useful" but I am not aware of something that translates directly

mircea_popescu: because it's dead letter

mircea_popescu: nobody's gonna write more platon.

diana_coman: true; though it does get added gradually anyway and they don't really expect to know upfront *everything* that will be added

mircea_popescu: no, they expected.

mircea_popescu: illogical, granted, but to me the expectation's obviouis

diana_coman: mircea_popescu: come to think of it, the "cloud of tags" is the closest thing to the above in that it changes indeed as content is added; I don't recall if it provides direct link to articles but at least it reflects the content as is

diana_coman: or hm, it relies on frequent tags rather than words so not quite reflecting the content

mircea_popescu: yea, they're stumbling in the direction, blindly.

mircea_popescu: ahh, feedbot conveniently pointed to me diana_coman 's comment. this thing is so fucking useful, making me look like a cyborg

diana_coman: feedbot is extremely useful to track all the comments + posts, basically I switched all to it and it's working great so far; there was the deluge of the after-break stuff coming in today but it's not a big issue (and it didn't choke on it either so all good)

billymg: re: blog work, i'm about to head out for the weekend, back early next week. i'll be able to bang out some more test coverage based on mircea_popescu's spec on the trip and put together a status/roadmap post when i get back

mircea_popescu: cool

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930335 << this find is so monumentally terrible, that it is worth preserving in amber. ( and not on acct of the shithub, roundedcornerism, and misc. redditisms, but strictly from pov of the proggy per se . ) behold :

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:56:34 spyked: upstack re erlang: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930095 <-- imho doesn't sound bad at all, given that e.g. feedbot threads communicate exactly through this type of message queue. meanwhile, I notice that there's a "lisp-flavoured erlang" dialect on teh interwebz, but no idea if worth looking into it

asciilifeform: ... their coad example. observe how yes they added paren, but... with various infixisms somehow still preserved and freely intermixed ?!!

asciilifeform: or for that matter , the function calls. e.g. #'start-ring/2 . dafuq, if it's a sexpr, it ~knows already~ that it needs the 'start-ring' that eats 2 args , not 1, not 3, not 17

asciilifeform: spyked: the tricky bit re 'steal the ultralight threads' is that in order for it to work, you more or less have to have same degree of 'fascism' as in actual erlang, i.e. can't have shared memory, easily-mutable variables, all the other knobs that make 'earthling' threads 'heavy'

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 12:19:27 asciilifeform: imho would be 9000x better to simply steal the technique and port to e.g. cmucl .

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930260 << funnily enuff, not long before reading these words, asciilifeform was using an actual, physical ratchet... which... broke. and nao turns 2ways.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 04:49:37 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930229 << you ever saw a ratchet work ?

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930302 << i got distinct impression that trinque is ripping own hair out from grrr re bugs in the (quite gnarly, i think was written in n00b yrs) cl bot

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:20:54 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930233 << i dun really get what this is about, but anyways.

mircea_popescu: wouldn't that read "motherfucker, i have no fucking idea what the fuck i wrote in here, was i drunk or what, it's illisible!"

asciilifeform: ftr asciilifeform walked into the 'go make bot' thing also suffering under the notion that bot is titanic problem that takes year of work . but imho this aint so.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think trinque & ben also walked in with this, given as they used a heathen 'cl-irc' lib for some reason (thinking, i suspect, 'irc, grrr, gnarly to implement' )

mircea_popescu: possibru

snsabot: Logged on 2018-10-25 15:10:38 asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.

mircea_popescu: i dunno man, just sitting here readin' dem logs.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930317 << this is The Right Thing (it dun need 'latency measurer' or any of that!) but only ~half~ . rip out the cl-irc thing.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:37:59 spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930228 <-- until I get proper patches published, here's an idea: 1. abolish "ping-thread" from ircbot; 2. instead, set up a ping handler for the bot, and have it respond with pong; this has the disadvantage that there's no more lag tracking, but it's simpler. proof-of-concept patch: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/LohMF/?raw=true

asciilifeform: spyked: mine is <400ln , incl. all postgresisms. and doesn't use 'irc lib', notice.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930301 << entirely possible that fella comes back to life and walks in with genesis of bot, vpatch viewer, cleaned-up vdiffism, etc. and i'ma be pleasantly surprised. but would not bet money or hold breath to wait for it.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:19:48 mircea_popescu: i don't intend to negrate him, as things stand, so you're more than welcome to explore wonderful world detailed in the further paragraphs of that comment.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930405 << his comment box eats less-than/greater-than signs as 'unclosed htm tags'. which i also observed on mircea_popescu's www, i think it is ancient wp bug (of the 'no one wants to fix' sort, it'd require a 2-pass parser)

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 10:25:30 diana_coman: do you still have the bug re html in comments perhaps?

mircea_popescu: i dunno that it's a bug, just don't leave < floating around.

mircea_popescu: meanwhile, some installs incorectly config'd (ancient ?) eat a tags

mircea_popescu: im not re-debugging this, spent a day year-or-so ago on it, i expect the resuklts to be in the mp-wp tree!

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho then comment box oughta have a notation e.g. 'dun fughet to &lt &gt' etc

mircea_popescu: why ?

mircea_popescu: yes well, i just looked at this room, it dun have a "breathe" sign

asciilifeform if were writing a new blogotron, would have the comment box eat same syntax as here, with the square brackets. who the hell needs raw htm in comments other than for linkage.

diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930437 - no, it was a proper link, proper html; hence the bug re version of php, solved by danielpbarron and in hanbot's vpatch etc.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 12:21:25 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930405 << his comment box eats less-than/greater-than signs as 'unclosed htm tags'. which i also observed on mircea_popescu's www, i think it is ancient wp bug (of the 'no one wants to fix' sort, it'd require a 2-pass parser)

spyked: hm, it seems that feedbot forgot to deliver some posts today because of the changes I made yesterday. fixed this and will include changes in next vpatch

spyked: asciilifeform, IMHO the custom markup idea for new blogotron ain't bad, but it might piss off ppl used to mp-wp, who still use ye olde html tags. I'm curious to hear opinions, given that I'm working on this exact thing for thetarpit

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930304 << possibly mircea_popescu won't believe that it is possible when doing 25yrs in usaschwitz, but : asciilifeform never saw 'seinfeld' . should i ? ( and, will turn into vegetable immediately ?! ) iirc it was 1 of those ameri-'comedians' where 0 actual humour, and audience had to be 'reminded to laugh' via taped laffs ?

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:22:30 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930241 << rather's the case, dude watched so much seinfeld he's so very firmly committed to non-committal he'll very happily die of it just to make a point "to the world". whatevers.

mircea_popescu: i dunno why learn two htmls.

mircea_popescu: new mark-up once tmsr browswer.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it's mildly comedic 1980s dissociated jew fiction. not more immediately dangerous than say watching star trek

mircea_popescu: you don't grow the pantsuit from visual contact with that dude's bald head directly

hanbot: mircea_popescu it occurs to me, in today's attempt to catch up with trilema pieces: didja rule out offering a public bounty for forgotten references a la http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-biology-is-destiny-adnotated/#footnote_3_86951 ?

mircea_popescu: meh.

mircea_popescu: i need mroe douchebags like i need genital warts.

hanbot: i don't think it'd require bringing douchebags in; have a list of unsolved refs, assign a reviewer for public submissions (i'd volunteer), award if solved, relationship can end there.

mircea_popescu: it really dun sound like anything.

asciilifeform recalls the ' cr50 bounty ' thrd. mircea_popescu made very persuasive arg re 'takes >= work to adjudicate contest as to do the actual job' .

asciilifeform: just possibly -- on a 'pre-1993' net , i.e. fulla actual people, this would not be. but on current -- so

mircea_popescu: i really don't ~want~ to give anything to these moral repugnants in the first place.

mircea_popescu: i'd rather donate to the democratic party than give anything to the "unmotivated" scum of the net

mircea_popescu: i'd really rather read pravda.

asciilifeform on occasion ~actually~ does read it. well, not usually the daily maculature per se (try an' find it) but e.g. recently read a sovok-pov history of rome. entertaining.

mircea_popescu: not the old pravda, the current pravda.

mircea_popescu: "statements of the state organs of the usg"

mircea_popescu: in fact, the little that leaks through tlp

mircea_popescu: s retarded skullholes is both a daily irritant and the actual limit on the speed of digestion

asciilifeform gets already 1000x the digestible dose , purely from ^ and from seepage via qntra

mircea_popescu: i could write say 8 or so more adnotations today. will not, because i can't fucking take moar "o look what i read in washington vice"

asciilifeform: i was actually somewhat surprised when saw mircea_popescu undertake 'digest tlp' . it seems rather similar to the work of gathering usable scrap metal from chernobyl.

mircea_popescu: ya well

mircea_popescu: i am young and foolish

hanbot: asciilifeform thx for reminding me of that thread. somehow it seemed obvious then, lol.

nicoleci: Ftr, i've been trying to get ahold of Ballas at his office in Maryland for two weeks now. The first time I called, receptionist told me hes only in the office on Wednesdays, I called back on Wednesday and was told he left early. Then when I called yesterday she told me that he's working from home today. Slippery dude.

mircea_popescu: bwahaha

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930461 << this might be an irreconcilable 'religious' q. asciilifeform for instance thinks that having to write <b>foo</b> instead of *foo* is braindamaged.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 12:34:46 spyked: asciilifeform, IMHO the custom markup idea for new blogotron ain't bad, but it might piss off ppl used to mp-wp, who still use ye olde html tags. I'm curious to hear opinions, given that I'm working on this exact thing for thetarpit

asciilifeform: ( not even to mention having to escape something as commonplace as > < & etc )

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 13:23:00 hanbot: asciilifeform thx for reminding me of that thread. somehow it seemed obvious then, lol.

snsabot: Logged on 2018-06-12 20:54:54 mircea_popescu: anyway, your design is dysfunctional in that (even allowing for it modelling somewhat close to reality, which i have no faith it does) suppose today someone gives you a working pill, and june 27th google patches the hole. and the someone says "dood, i have nfi, i honestly didn't tell anyone anything".

BingoBoingo: Entrar armado a un banco "es la cosa más linda" porque "todo el mundo te respeta" - Pepe Mujica, former president and bank robber

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: reminiscent of ameristan's 'cuz it's where the money is'(tm)(r)(dillinger)

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-22#1930162 << the plan makes sense, i will implement it. though i intend to start from the 'read data from fg' position, because 1. opening tty devices from kernel without very dirty tricks became possible only in 4.13; ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-08-22 16:43 mircea_popescu: imo correct design is 16kb to cpu-cache-sized inner ring buffer, wherein fg material is simply written into a loop, plain ; and from where high quality entropy is read blockingly. whenever the writing head threatens to overwrite the reading head, the overwritten bits are instead fed into outer ring

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 13:25:30 mircea_popescu: imo correct design is 16kb to cpu-cache-sized inner ring buffer, wherein fg material is simply written into a loop, plain ; and from where high quality entropy is read blockingly. whenever the writing head threatens to overwrite the reading head, the overwritten bits are instead fed into outer ring

bvt: 2. by tty model of linux, you don't pull data using tty driver, the driver pushes the data though several abstraction layers. i would have grok this stuff as well. there is at least one other driver that needs this functionality (for connecting a screenreader to a tty), so i can figure out stuff by looking at what it does.

bvt: one q though, per my reading of the formalization, stretching happens only on I overflow? i.e. if there is a consumer reading from I, preventing it from overfilling, bytes would never fall into O, and stretching is not triggered?

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930507 << writing can happen after machine fully booted, neh ? e.g. root-owned process will simply dd if=/dev/ttyUSBx of=/dev/random

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 18:20:00 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-22#1930162 << the plan makes sense, i will implement it. though i intend to start from the 'read data from fg' position, because 1. opening tty devices from kernel without very dirty tricks became possible only in 4.13;

asciilifeform: ( it's superficially appealing, but almost certain to get bogged down in particulars of usb2serial dongles, as well as the gnarly issue of actually identifying FG from other serial devices -- linux offers 0 hard guarantee of initialization order for serial gadgets )

asciilifeform: ftr imho a box that wants FG ~during~ boot, oughta have it on an actual rs232 port -- these get init'd very simply quite early during boot

asciilifeform: btw it remains unclear to asciilifeform , why entropy would be wanted ~during boot~ at all

bvt: asciilifeform: if you recall, this was my original plan, however i got impression from 'part of kernel & welded shut' here http://bvt-trace.net/2019/08/fg-fed-linux-rng-work-schedule/comment-page-1/#comment-44 that everything should be inside

mircea_popescu: bvt indeed, if there's no I to O overflow, then O just acts as a cprng, keeps hashing itself

mircea_popescu: while alf's "no need for entropy during boot" is not correct, nevertheless "no need for I-entropy" stands, can just use the O register until you can indeed http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930512

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 19:06:58 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-23#1930507 << writing can happen after machine fully booted, neh ? e.g. root-owned process will simply dd if=/dev/ttyUSBx of=/dev/random

bvt: the O ring needs to be initialized somehow, zero-filling it may be bad, and keeping the existing infrastructure for just boot-time entropy collection is not an option; should i look for something simple that would work for initialization?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for what need entropy ( or even pseudo-entropy ) during boot ?

mircea_popescu: to init the crapola.

mircea_popescu: bvt why is zero filling bad ?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, various drivers ; various tables ; samplers ; all sorta crap.

mircea_popescu: it's not my fault linux kernel was written by the zombie herd

asciilifeform: strikes me as nuttery that e.g. nic driver, might not only want entropy, but ~in boot~

mircea_popescu: yes welll

asciilifeform: and those by all rights oughta get marsaglia or similar penny 'entropy'. crypto-battlefield proggies have no biz making an appearance at boot time or in absence of init'd FG .

mircea_popescu: hence my comment re O-entropy

bvt: asciilifeform: actually it may be easy to find early users with ftrace=function ftrace_filter=*random* at kernel command line, and then get the users out of tracefs

bvt: mircea_popescu: i don't think it will lead to any vulnerability or something of this sort, no; but still there is a question of what the early users are (i.e. something in net stack, that will stick for a long time?)

mircea_popescu: srsly now, IF there is such a thing as a program that needs crypto-grade entropy at boot time, it's a piece of shit.

mircea_popescu: not like current kernel starts up with a 4kb entropy pool

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can think of a few riotously braindamaged proggies atm (e.g. 'sshd', where author somehow thought it acceptable to generate host key at boot ; and tcp stack, where seq #'s )