log
⏐︎▁ 13264
asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf this is a good project but gnudiff is laughably dull knife for the job. see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-19#1525177 . ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-19 14:56 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 i came to this by attempting vdiff of gnupg 1.4.10 vs their .21 release from wednesday, and ending up with an unreadable 8MB turd, they moved/rm'd a buncha files.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: phf: koch, drepper, weimer (yes, i shit thee not, all three participated, grep for them in the credits) took great care to make this job as painful as can be.
asciilifeform: moved files, shuffled the shit, left and right.
asciilifeform: i sat down to sift through this rubbish on 3 separate occasions, ended up with very little useful info
asciilifeform: but is very much worth a shot, esp. if you are prepared to run exotic (e.g., needleman-wunsch sequence alignment algo) difftrons, or the like.
asciilifeform: or at least something that understands file movement and doesn't shit out multi-meg turds.
mircea_popescu: eh. they're ~as ineffectual as could be.
asciilifeform: 'turkish wedding' >> http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-04#1041206 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-03-04 06:52 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: does engl. have a catch-term for 'fatal buggery' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no need to posit effectual, this particular bit of squid ink was not difficult.
asciilifeform: and gnudiff is just about the dullest knife imaginable.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1526025 << didja use the minus in USE ? i have apm working fine on the box whose build resulted in that posted recipe. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-20 20:43 phf: only thing i can't figure out with asciilifeform's killfile is how to get laptop to do apm related stuff. the main package depends on dbus
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ( box entirely and wholly free of dbus and other poetteringism )
phf: asciilifeform: there's some other package like laptop-mode maybe, that has a collection of shell scripts that live on top of apm and actually make do all the sensible things
phf: i'll boot the laptop in a few and share the relevant details for interested parties
asciilifeform: phf: i have never used this item, cannot comment.
asciilifeform: but do please post.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1526079 << i watched thread and wondered how long an (allegedly) cunt-enabled ninjashogun would last in the field, vs a conventional one. seems like we have an answer. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-20 23:15 covertress: mircea_popescu, I'll elaborate when I bring his proposal, in person.
phf: i don't remember if i got hybernate to work, but my immediate problem was abysmal battery life on literally single emacs buffer and no daemons
asciilifeform: phf: abysmal on what ? is this a box that ever had anything like good life ?
asciilifeform: or one of those wonders that was good for 2h when brand-new, on winblowz
phf: x1 carbon, original owner would run ubuntu on it with ~~6h when editing text ☟︎
phf: it dropped to about 2
asciilifeform: phf: the answer, in my experience, is typically the gpu
phf: yeah, i think i figured out how to power down radeon and use intel, which solved some of the issues, but there's also a bunch of other peripherals, that remain powered-up even not in use, bluetooth, gsm, etc.
asciilifeform: gsm?!
asciilifeform: built-in ?
asciilifeform: typically these can be killed in bios
phf: yeah, one of few devices with such!
asciilifeform: or even physically pulled out.
phf: you know, i don't think i've actually checked bios come to think of it
asciilifeform: switch off all of the genuinely-unused junk
asciilifeform: (or, gold standard, pull the boards out, if there are such)
phf: i'm pretty sure it's already macbook air school of engineering
asciilifeform: phf: i have yet to find ONE single box where wifi/bluetooth and gsm are soldered down
asciilifeform: my understanding is that this is not done for american regulatory reason
asciilifeform: (the components have to be certified separately)
phf: i'll give it another try. i started using it prematurely, and was basically running around looking for a powerplug at the point where i really didn't want to deal with shit like that
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-21#1526139 << sooooooo apparently the cobza from mircea_popesculand is different instrument than the cobza from urkland. whod'vethunkit. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-21 01:06 mircea_popescu: the song goes "uite-asa as vrea sa mor, cu paharul linga mine, cu cobzarul linga mine, intr-o crisma din obor, sa scriu cind o fi momentul cu vin rosu testamentul. sa-i tragem o betie de pomina sa fie"
mircea_popescu: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3ACobza.ogg << like that.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-21#1526130 << ah usa, land of the phreeee, of the streets full of pubs with gigantic parking lots. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-21 00:59 phf: for all the jokes about russian vodka drinking, the amount of "functional alcoholism" i've seen in ussa is staggering. i literally cut contact with about 70% of my friends from my 20s, because they are slob alcoholics with no self control. so it's either health nuts who don't touch the stuff (or rarely) or else it's "50 minutes of квас and then race to the bottom" crowd
phf: oh also i couldn't figure out how to get intel to work on x11, rather than radeon. it seems like it requires some boot time pokes, which you need hurd to execute (or else figure out how to run a random code from lilo but before kernel is loaded, etc.)
phf: err, not hurd, of course, grub
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526361 << i'm sure she'll be back. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 00:23 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1526079 << i watched thread and wondered how long an (allegedly) cunt-enabled ninjashogun would last in the field, vs a conventional one. seems like we have an answer.
asciilifeform: with a veeeeeeeery speshul offer!
asciilifeform: just for mircea_popescu !
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526366 << listen, get replacement batteries. you'll be surprised. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 00:24 phf: x1 carbon, original owner would run ubuntu on it with ~~6h when editing text
mircea_popescu: even 5 yo "originals" suck when compared with good quality contempos. at least THAT much came out of usg's tesla sponsorship : the chinese now make much better batteries.
mircea_popescu: and in other koch, drepper, weimer news : http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbl5enj5Dm1qd2dcwo1_500.gif
phf: asciilifeform: http://www.myfixguide.com/manual/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/thinkpad-x1-disassemble-30.jpg you're right about the gsm,wifi
mircea_popescu: aha.
phf: not sure i can source a custom battery though
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: phf: get yerself a spot welder
asciilifeform: and can make your own
asciilifeform: out of the old.
mircea_popescu: o.O
asciilifeform: often sold as 'tab welder' tool.
phf: mircea_popescu: never mind, wrong on that account too
asciilifeform: or if you have large capacitor lying around, from stereo system junk (1F and +) make your own.
mircea_popescu: i really wouldn't advise anyone to open a li-ion shit. why the fuck would you do that, next step is go to africa root through garbage for a living.
phf: that thing looks like an air, so i figured it was junk, internally. but it's quite reasonable. harddrive has a rapid replacement design, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3kwpQbVHBo << very good example
mircea_popescu: lotta learned helplessness eh phf ? :D
asciilifeform: ^ i still want to learn where the brit got the sound track
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cell comes out of the plastic box and separates from the proprietary connector and monitor pcb
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a useful ability for folks who keep stables of genuinely old lappy
asciilifeform: (for which there is NO chinese ready battery)
mircea_popescu: point is that cells improved significantly in recent practice.
mircea_popescu: and you'd be amazed, also.
asciilifeform: aha, gut the old box and put in modern chemistry.
asciilifeform: (li poly)
phf: mircea_popescu: i am, i am ashamed to admit it, feel comfortable in the warm embrace of apple's unix boxes, so transitioning out has been slow and painful.
mircea_popescu: hey, whatever works. tho in my experience apple never made usable anything.
phf: goes back to that whole literacy thing, sort of stuck with me..
phf: -void disable_dotlock(void) {}
phf: +void dotlock_disable(void) {}
asciilifeform: ahahahahahahaha
asciilifeform: typical.
asciilifeform: phf: how much battery time won with ^ above ?
phf: "Versions of GnuPG before 1.4.11 and 2.0.16 allowed to import bogus direct key signatures." ☟︎☟︎
phf: - int readonly=!!(flags&8);
phf: + int read_only=!!(flags&8);
phf:
phf: fwiw there aren't any file renames between .10 and .21, but certainly plenty of fluff like that
asciilifeform: phf: why is my diff 8M then.
phf: diff is still 36k of lines!
phf: asciilifeform: because you didn't strategically apply excludes to things that harbor nazis collaborators, but still should be probably inspected separately
asciilifeform: where did phf make the cuts ?
phf: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/5b8e6acd-160f-4c5b-b814-9fba9c66f058/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ^ reasonable.
phf: none have code, except for bzlib that was brought into the codebase
asciilifeform: automake is a work of evil, first thing i did when sawing off the mpi lib is to nuke it. ☟︎
asciilifeform: it is loathesome and is to die, no exceptions.
phf: zlib was patched up, very minor patches, but somehow it was necessary to bring in example.c "usage example of the zlib compression library"
phf: riscos.c was added "RISC OS stuff". aha.
phf: estream-printf got a whole blob for testing added including #ifdef TEST and emacs bindings for compile-command to do rapid testing from inside the file. how hacky
phf: oh "intl" is gettext, so that can be cut too. of course, "nazi collaborators here" disclaimer
phf: which brings line count to 15k
asciilifeform: phf: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1533 << see also.
asciilifeform: (there is a newer and yet-unpublished edition of this.)
phf: i like how they added a stub for GOST
phf: with empty implementation file, and #error don't use this inside
asciilifeform can never again think of gost cipher without thinking of maslennikov's adventures.
phf: that's as clean as i can get it in a single pass http://107.170.141.103/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/gnupg.diff
phf: 443K
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell asciilifeform Not quite.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: there are some clearly meat-y parts, and then there's a lot of gendered pronounce
phf: there's also bits (like riscos.c which i think is part of zlib and dotlock*), which i think are imported/updated from external sources
phf: i need to patch site icon on that host, it still T
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526429 << aha ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 00:57 phf: "Versions of GnuPG before 1.4.11 and 2.0.16 allowed to import bogus direct key signatures."
mircea_popescu: i guess we ping Framedragger ? or let him be ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526441 << likbez re diff make/automake ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 01:02 asciilifeform: automake is a work of evil, first thing i did when sawing off the mpi lib is to nuke it.
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/08/21/what-king-do-you-think-youre-living-like-exactly/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - What King do you think you’re living like exactly?
asciilifeform: 'automake' is the massive turd that runs when you ./configure .
mircea_popescu: and so you don't like ./configure ?
asciilifeform: it is 100K to 1M of mildly variated boilerplate, typically.
asciilifeform: and often dwarfs the proggy it is trying to build.
mircea_popescu: yes ? and the alternative is what, hand-curated perl scriptsw ?
asciilifeform: and attempts various bogus things like 'finding your libs'
asciilifeform: no
asciilifeform: alternative is 1kb of 'i set lib paths here'.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how i'd do eulora client install w/o it.
asciilifeform: as seen in my mpi item earlier.
asciilifeform: and yes all kinds of folks who dun know better think 'i cannot do X without it'
asciilifeform: sounds familiar, neh ?
asciilifeform: thing is, 99% of what the thing does is wholly unnecessary for a given proggy.
mircea_popescu: yes, but : currently, the compile process is NOT the most difficult part of "noob getting eulora running". (turns out, interacting with irc is. lol.)
mircea_popescu: i dun want this to change.
asciilifeform: but is there 'anyway' because the fungus in rms's left ear told him that a build script weighing a meg was somehow ok
asciilifeform: and nor a mortal sin.
asciilifeform: to see example of sane build script:
asciilifeform: mod6's trb-builder.
asciilifeform: witness - no automake !
asciilifeform: not even retardoshi had automake in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: well that's because automake doesn't work in visual studio.
phf: trb builds on three systems altogether, and it's still a pita
mircea_popescu: phf yeah. i have a problem in that i want to impose eulora as standard for republic code ; but nevertheless automake IS a humongo pile of perl.
asciilifeform: automake is a rancid pile of shit and my first contact with any project that contains it is to shoot it in the head.
mircea_popescu: do you understand what's being said here or just spewing ?
phf: automake solves a bootstrapping problem in that common subtrate across all posix systems is "sh", so it's a tcl-like macro language built on top of shell. biggest problem with it (besides the typical communal retardation) is that nobody actually spends any time trying to understand it, before dismissing it
mircea_popescu: phf i wonder if a "prune down to THIS codebase" function would be useful.
mircea_popescu: ie, it wipes out of itself everything it doesn't actually use.
phf: mircea_popescu: it's already in there
mircea_popescu: aclocal or what was it ?
mircea_popescu: or no, wait
mircea_popescu: phf what is it ?
phf: i'm trying to remember what the current name is (which is where community retardation comes from) but yeah, aclocal is where you spec out just the things that you need for project
mircea_popescu: yeah but it doesn't do it by itself. it's just a macro merge thing neh ?
asciilifeform: gpg 1.4.10 has a 'configure 800K in mass.
phf: because configure is generated
mircea_popescu: eulora configure.ac is 27kb ; configure however is 720k.
asciilifeform: aha. and most of what generator outputs has 0 to do with particular program.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, there's the primary file, where you say things "i need a c compiler for this project"
mircea_popescu: iirc same proportions with gnupg and everything else.
mircea_popescu: what i had in mind phf is, automake runs on project, keeps track of every bit of itself that it actually called, then inserts a pruned down version of itself somewhere, so you can ship the software with THAT instead of the whole automake.
asciilifeform: here is a sample 2 lines from that config:
asciilifeform: # Zsh 3.x and 4.x performs word splitting on ${1+"$@"}, which
asciilifeform: # is contrary to our usage. Disable this feature.
asciilifeform: ^ where i say FUCK anyone who uses zhs. fuck people using orc glyphs. fuck anyone whose compiler is not in $CXX. automake is dead weight.
asciilifeform: *zsh
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it ~does something~.
mircea_popescu: what it does is exactly this : takes a situation where "fuck 83% of people" and allows them to install w/e it is you're making.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, there's the primary file, which is your *.ac, which using autoconf generates your ./configure Makefile.in etc. ~those~ can be shipped with project and will work out of the box
mircea_popescu: that's how we do it currently.
asciilifeform: it pulls paths of dependencies by bruteforce searching for various items
asciilifeform: like so: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-18#1523842 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-18 02:48 mircea_popescu: configure: error: libgpg-error is needed.
mircea_popescu: nah, the retardation making it ~impossible to compile gpg 2."current" has 0 to do with automake.
asciilifeform: has everything to do with it.
mircea_popescu: they hardwired a bad path in there and i ran outof patience before finding the right magic knob.
asciilifeform: has to do with program being written by heathens who do not understand that ALL deps must be CARRIED !
asciilifeform: as trb does.
mircea_popescu: had they properly used automake the problem wouldn't have existed.
asciilifeform: 'you use zip? fine, carry zip.'
asciilifeform: recall mircea_popescu's '#include must die' thread ?
mircea_popescu: phf only problem is, configure script is like 700kb.
phf: mircea_popescu: that's pretty much how it goes. hardwired paths because "fuck automake" or patching ./configure directly or all kinds of variations on the theme
mircea_popescu: actually ~every project of "battlefield" size seems to end up with a half mb to mb configure script.
asciilifeform: this comes from misguided refusal to standardize the build context.
asciilifeform: 'no you may NOT build this on vms and expect support' is the correct path.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you understand the population of mouthbreathers out there is mystified by webirc page ?
asciilifeform: yes.
mircea_popescu: well then.
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu expects them to compile the game ?
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: hence - automake.
asciilifeform: they will find a way to set house on fire while running ./configure.
mircea_popescu: not so far.
mircea_popescu: so far the major problem is irc usage ; and gpg/deedbot a very distant second.
asciilifeform: y'know, 'distribute exe' is ~even easier~ on the n00bz and rubes, but mircea_popescu doesn't do this.
mircea_popescu: ie, anything that's different from the variety of keymashing they're used to from "work"
mircea_popescu: i sort-of do yes. via jurov
mircea_popescu: http://minigame.bz/jurov/ <
asciilifeform: automake works when very carefully used, but the result is a massive turd that is autogenerated, that NO ONE will ever read, and does ???. with 10,001 system-specific #ifdef's.
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: on the other hand, it allows derps to build.
asciilifeform: this is part 'i just wanted to!' if you like, but in no conceivable universe 'republican standard for code.'
mircea_popescu being the derps in question nine cases out of ten. no fucking way am i going to chase obscure deps on your obscure project.
asciilifeform: i hear microshit studio is even better at 'allow derps to build
asciilifeform: wanna switch to that..?
asciilifeform: don't chase deps !
asciilifeform: distribute with the proggy.
asciilifeform: as trb does.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: so what am i goingto do, compile nvidia driver ?
mircea_popescu: har har.
asciilifeform: we already have a working example of 'sane proggy, sane build system.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: automake doesn't build the gpu driver.
phf: trb's build system is not sane
mircea_popescu: your sane proggy does ~nothing. certainly no graphs.
mircea_popescu: phf why ?
phf: it doesn't satisfy our own requirements of fits in head, it goes through a rube goldberg machine in order to produce a specific build for a specific system. "mac os x? fuck you. openbsd? fuck you". it doesn't succeed at own goal of producing bit identical builds.
asciilifeform: and i ain't ever signing GENERATED code. not for love nor money.
asciilifeform: not unless i READ it, and i will not read 800KB of boilerplate sh crapolade.
mircea_popescu: i... signed base64'd matter.
mircea_popescu: seems pure fetishism. "i'm not signing generated code" well... yousigned ... your signature didn;t you ?
mircea_popescu: if you know what the generator does, what's the problem.
asciilifeform: automake stinks, and not a hearty, productive stink, like diesel engines of a maersk tanker, but the stink of liquishit in the diaper of profoundly retarded teenager smearing all over padded cell.
phf: "i don't like it"
mircea_popescu: the metaphor breaks down on / depends on not noticing that IT DELIVERS.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: go an' try reading the generator.
asciilifeform: then see what you think.
mircea_popescu: yeswell.
asciilifeform: visual shitudio ALSO 'delivers'.
mircea_popescu: that part's not so much in dispute. methinks i said above.
phf: hence we have buildroot, equally unsigned, pretty sure ~nobody~ here read all of it, or relevant parts for the build system
asciilifeform: phf: this is also a problem.
mircea_popescu: phf iirc he put a historical version in deedbot neh ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you ?
asciilifeform: but notice, i never picked up a microphone and proclaimed 'buildroot will be part of a republican standard for code'
mircea_popescu: ah, to clarify : i do not mean "automake". i mean the process.
asciilifeform: which process ?
mircea_popescu: this thing whereby noob sits down, pastes four commands off wiki, gets working game. every time.
asciilifeform: this is an illusion.
mircea_popescu: i dun care what the lines are per se.
asciilifeform: like all stage magic, it is satisfying when it works.
mircea_popescu: it so far works.
asciilifeform: but there is not, in our universe, actual magic.
asciilifeform: there is only 'thus far the users happened to have the correct deps'.
mircea_popescu: this thing works. and it works in a very messy environment - gfx drivers, a raft of dependencies, etc.
asciilifeform: perhaps because of the dire monoculture of african linux, perhaps not, i have nfi who has been building
mircea_popescu: not so, the deps are actually enumerated.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if the thing uses opengl, it doesn't care about gpu driver
mircea_popescu: oh but it does.
asciilifeform brb, alcohol
mircea_popescu: oh what sweet delusion, "opengl will handle things for you".
phf: there's also a dozen of different "opengl"
mircea_popescu: in any case, the whole discussion is about "something like automake" in the sense of "gimme magic"
phf: automake is distinctly not magic. it's a text interpolation macro system. i'm pretty sure there's not even a tree shaker there (i.e. if you check for gcc, you check for gcc every time something says "i need gcc". only reason it's not done a dozen of times is because there's also a check "did i check for gcc already?". never the less all those dozen gcc checks end up in ./configure)
mircea_popescu: phf question is why wasn't it made saner.
mircea_popescu: i don't even understand why does it parse rather than compile, for instance. seems a very nutty design decision.
phf: afaiu it's because of subtrate problem. there are some programs that are specified in posix, so they are going to be on every system. sh, m4, already compiled by vendor.
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: rather than "read line, check if we checked, check" wouldn't it be saner to "read all lines, create list of checks, check list" ?
phf: so you either rely on those, or you have a chicken and egg problem (how do i compile c without knowing how to compile c)
mircea_popescu: i don;t follow.
phf: programming in sh/m4 combination is not a sane thing
phf: well, so sh/m4 are dumb. one is a very primitive programming language (no portable notion of arrays for example, so "read all lines" "create a list" is not a straightforward thing), the other one is a templating language
mircea_popescu: let's work with an abstract example. suppose there's project X, which can for the purpose of configure be reduced to a list of n lines, whereby each line produces a dependency from the list of D1- D5 by the criterion that line# mod 5. so a sane autoconf will read the whole list, produce a list reading "d1, d2, d3, d4, d5" and then proceed to check these. once. five fucking checks, five lines of checking.
mircea_popescu: and sure, maybe d1 = "need to compile c code" in which case "check for d1" means "do we have a way to compile c code on this system ? ok, what is it ? and how is it invoked ? ok here we go then :"
phf: need to compile c code is already about 50 checks (do have "NULL"? do we have "malloc"?), but i follow
mircea_popescu: so it's 50 checks. whatever it may be.
mircea_popescu: basically, seems to me most, or at least a good chunk of autoconf problems as described by alf come from the fact that it tries to parse, rather than compile. in the abstract sense of these terms. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: and parsing is uniquely inadequate for its task. in fact, its task is more adequate to compiling than c code is.
mircea_popescu: which really, isn't also parsed in the way lisp is also parsed because people are emotionally attached, and no other reason.
mircea_popescu: heck, gcc is not much better than a three pass parser most of the time.
phf: i think the reason is that the sh/m4 combo is particularly well suited for what you call parsing. really it's very well suited at "expanding code". it's wholly inadequate for building compilers
phf: there are no arrays. you literally don't get better storage than "text in a variable". there's very limited math. even expressing something simple "do this n times" is pain.
phf: neither were designed for programming, sh is rudimentary even by bash standards. on linux sh is linked to bash, but elsewhere you might actually encounter a barely posix take on it.
phf: hence asciilifeform's "don't compile this on VMS" comment.
phf: but fwiw even if openbsd, say, will give you a similar compilation environment, it's not going to give you bash out of the box. it's ksh, so you're back to "least common sh denominator"
phf: i say it's a chicken and egg problem, because you know you can get vendor versions of posix tools (and then still reduce the available "language" even more, by taking away some features that might be missing in nominally posix sh on some obscure system), but you can't really do anything else, until you established some truths about your environment ☟︎
phf: new takes on build systems suffer, because they rely on high level languages. and if your vendor didn't provide you with perl or python, you're back to squire one "how do i compile my build system on this machine"
phf: *square
mircea_popescu: ok, but i mean... so we drive nails with screwdriver because that's what we got.
mircea_popescu: of course the process and its result will be horrifying.
phf: exactly
mircea_popescu: but it is evident the blame isn't autoconf's per se.
phf: but autoconf being at the subtrate level is testament to "unix won", its purpose to give you details about "what's unix" given the tools that are available at the most abstract level of unixness
mircea_popescu: and trying to implement a "better" autoconf, even "by hand", will not result in anything better ☟︎
mircea_popescu: except it will appear to, for a briefd interval at first. then it will create friction between purists and inclusionists, which is just about as dumb drama as livejournal disputes.
phf: i think at best it could be trimmed down, but i think even that's doable by limiting the number of m4 macros used for includes. or perhaps being very specific with what you want. "i need gcc 4" will necessarily be less messy than "i need a c compiler", considering that most of the time the program is not ready to deal with wide range of compilers anyway
mircea_popescu: yes, but that kills you because rando will have gcc 5
phf: well, since asciilifeform's not here "let them eat nagant! wake me up when less stupid people!" ☟︎
mircea_popescu: in other, unrelated-ish sad : to this day, "web development" has no javascript tree shaker.
mircea_popescu: phf once management has put compatibility on your list of targets, you can say that all you want, best done in a mutter under own beard.
phf: fwiw trb and eulora have opposite goals as far as exposure
mircea_popescu: yup.
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with this. but also no solution to problem.
phf: i think crystal whatever is particularly nasty take on autoconf, probably one of the best examples in support of asciilifeform's rants.
mircea_popescu: yep.
mircea_popescu: ironically, it is also one of the most solid parts of the entire codebase.
phf: only worse autoconf build i've seen was clisp, but in the later case it was written by one of autoconf authors, so while it was elaborate it was at the very least sane
mircea_popescu: anyway ; it's evident that in the future republican code will have one of the two possible profiles (trb-like ; eulora-like), not necessarily one, and certainly not necessarily the former.
phf: do you know if my changes were integrated into the release? because last time i checked the build wasn't doing autoconf, but simply using patches generated scripts.
mircea_popescu: phf eulora can't pull current cs because they fucked it up. so i wouldn't know.
phf: i went through the whole exercise of rebuilding the scripts from their respective ac files
phf: by changes i mean the homebrew build patches. pretty sure i said something about "please look at them patches" in #eulora, probably to jurov or diana_coman. i highly doubt it was done, so more suffering on their part :>
mircea_popescu: oh. isn't that os/x specific ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman did we eat that up or what happened do you recall ?
phf: nah, those patches were crossplatform by design
mircea_popescu: in truth we've been working on all sorts of things other than build process for months nao.
phf: right
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform brb, alcohol << AHA, S.MG is driving alf closer to rehab!
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ok, but i mean... so we drive nails with screwdriver because that's what we got. << In that case skip nail and drive in screwdriver. Better load bearing ability, usually...
BingoBoingo: <phf> i think crystal whatever is particularly nasty take on autoconf, probably one of the best examples in support of asciilifeform's rants. << Nah, "Monero" is far worse because of what it supposes to be.
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=5075
BingoBoingo: http://www.slate.com/blogs/five_ring_circus/2016/08/21/the_olympics_wrestling_controversy_that_led_a_mongolian_coach_to_remove.html
diana_coman: phf mircea_popescu I think that was probably before my time really
diana_coman: I'll search the logs to find phf's pointer and have a look at it
diana_coman: phf, this is all I found, back before my time indeed: http://logs.minigame.bz/2015-08-15.log.html#t18:47:02 and http://logs.minigame.bz/2015-08-29.log.html#t19:13:13
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1525876 << you conveniently omitted that 4 of 5 cases the mutilations was client-side ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-20 14:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1525860 << email mutilation
jurov: and www-hopper won't change much about insane clients
jurov: it can stay as a historical record, but it's currently frozen with #b-a wot and redoing wot synchronization is exactly such kind of nontrivial change ☟︎
jurov: re: eulora build system. last i saw it still carried crap like --with-hunspell . And when i tried to add configure option for ecl support.. i just gave up, it uses jam with poorly documented custom CS extensions. ☟︎
jurov: it's all much worse than just "generates big configure turds"
jurov: noone can't ever use vanilla autotools and ftjam as documented. it's absolute necessity to prove own intelligence and DRY-adherence by creatively rigging the build system. ☟︎
asciilifeform: in other noose, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1591411
asciilifeform: 'systemd-logind must be restarted every ~1000 SSH logins to prevent a ~25 second delay'
shinohai: When is someone finally gonna kill systemd and bury it deep.
jurov: When there will be new shiny thing in rust or something
asciilifeform: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/1961 << a thing of 'beauty' :
asciilifeform: 'OK, so I figured out one part of the puzzle I think: dbus-daemon is broken handling incoming messages where there's first a message without auxiliary fd in the socket buffer, which is then immediately followed by one with auxiliary fd. The kernel will already return the auxiliary fd with the first message, and dbus-daemon takes that as broken message and will abort the connection.' -- poettering.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526664 << i never found a sane client.. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 09:32 jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1525876 << you conveniently omitted that 4 of 5 cases the mutilations was client-side
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526667 << is it really so hard to replace the pubkeys wherever they were kept, with your current v set ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 09:35 jurov: it can stay as a historical record, but it's currently frozen with #b-a wot and redoing wot synchronization is exactly such kind of nontrivial change
jurov: well, the v set is like 5 people
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526668 << i have not, to date, attempted to build and run eulora, i wonder what 'wonderful surprises' await. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 11:27 jurov: re: eulora build system. last i saw it still carried crap like --with-hunspell . And when i tried to add configure option for ecl support.. i just gave up, it uses jam with poorly documented custom CS extensions.
asciilifeform: jurov: aha, and those are the 5 people who have any business patching trb.
asciilifeform: presently.
asciilifeform: the other option of course is to do it as mircea_popescu described, and to have NO canonical vpatch repo at all, and 'every man for himself.'
asciilifeform: then again, he argued - imho very successfully - against a canonical ~tree~, not against www which shows all known vpatches in tree form ☟︎
asciilifeform: (the latter was already implemented by phf and worx great)
shinohai: I like phf's setup, it is simple to go in and find which patches I need/don't need.
asciilifeform: shinohai: it is almost exactly the thing i imagined when first wrote 'v'.
jurov: interesting, so the consesnus is apparently wot does not mean anything anymore and i should curate gpg keys manually? ☟︎
asciilifeform: jurov: no, but that it is better than letting the thing rust solid
asciilifeform: it isn't as if assbot-l1 wasn't a manually-curated artifact.
asciilifeform: it was not in any ordinary sense 'wot'.
asciilifeform: was a manual cut of wot.
asciilifeform: by 1 (2?) people.
asciilifeform: i dun have a problem with this, but it is important to remember how it worked.
asciilifeform: and how present-day item works.
asciilifeform: so jurov's complaint rather resembles 'so consensus is that washing machines are useless and wtf, i have to clean this rifle manually ?'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526615 << my complaint is that it adds a meg of UNREADABLE and - largely UNTESTABLE (i do not have a VMS box, nor a machine with zsh or ksh, nor do i intend to , and i REFUSE to sign code that claims to run there , srsly wtf omfg) - and that it introduces massive turd, useless language m4, go and learn it, read the implementation ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 03:02 mircea_popescu: basically, seems to me most, or at least a good chunk of autoconf problems as described by alf come from the fact that it tries to parse, rather than compile. in the abstract sense of these terms.
asciilifeform: srsly it is not enough that we have the gnudiff turd baked in ?
asciilifeform: i would like to get rid of THAT also.
asciilifeform: it all must burn.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526624 << this, as all attempts to solve a 'tv raft' problem, is EVIL. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 03:11 phf: i say it's a chicken and egg problem, because you know you can get vendor versions of posix tools (and then still reduce the available "language" even more, by taking away some features that might be missing in nominally posix sh on some obscure system), but you can't really do anything else, until you established some truths about your environment
asciilifeform: aaaaaaaand log is down.
asciilifeform: aaaaand up. lol. ☟︎
asciilifeform: raft: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-18#1524864 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-18 22:32 asciilifeform: 'The situation is somewhat akin to a retarded girlfriend trying to flood your apartment, that not only opens all the faucets and stops all the drains, but also takes the "extremely clever" measure of puncturing the water pipes, so she can then preciously inform you that "turning off the faucets won't help" and you must work with her to somehow create a raft out of your widescreen TV so as to navigate the marshy terrain that used to b
jurov: eh, i'm in no mood to discuss deeper, whatever
jurov: you always use the most immaterial point and use it as counterargument "phee jurov doesn't want to clean his guns manually"
asciilifeform: jurov: all i say is that presently we dun have a rifle-cleaning machine to give to jurov.
asciilifeform: the fella who was in charge of this, vanished
asciilifeform: ;;seen mike_c
gribble: mike_c was last seen in #trilema 16 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 3 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <mike_c> at least you won the 'most famous mircea popescu' award - https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mircea+popescu
asciilifeform: and yes, if jurov does not roll up his sleeves, and do the painful cleaning, it will rust and eventually no longer fire.
asciilifeform: in fact, i'm pretty sure that i would not be able to submit a patch to turdatron presently.
asciilifeform: (my subkey expires every year.)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526632 << this is entirely correct. the 'problem' which autoconf pretends (yes, pretends) to 'solve', is EVIL ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 03:17 mircea_popescu: and trying to implement a "better" autoconf, even "by hand", will not result in anything better
asciilifeform: if you want to 'include derps' (and the result will be EVERY bit as ugly as every other occasion when someone insisted on attempt to 'include' them) distribute binaries.
asciilifeform: building a large proggy is intrinsically an act for literate hands, and trying to change this, will lead to no good.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo https://twitter.com/feministPLT << parody ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: in other 'news', this, apparently, exists : https://twitter.com/NSAGov
shinohai: lol they even have `NSACareers` account
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gnupg/devel/68250 << gpg lulz.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: 'Once you have a key with a given 64-bit keyid in your keychain, GnuPG will not import any other key with the same 64-bit keyid. Even if you specify the new key by fingerprint.'
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Likely not parody. Insufficient followers.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-37152665 << noose lulz
asciilifeform: 'Andy Darken of the Prison Officers' Association said the prison service "doesn't really have the resources, means or indeed the know how yet of how to deal with the problem".'
BingoBoingo: news'd http://qntra.net/2016/08/no-arrests-in-drug-drone-prison-crash-and-mid-flight-seizure/
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/08/no-arrests-in-drug-drone-prison-crash-and-mid-flight-seizure/ << Qntra - No Arrests In Drug Drone Prison Crash And Mid-Flight Seizure
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526670 << yeah, it works but seems pretty dangerous for the future. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 11:43 jurov: noone can't ever use vanilla autotools and ftjam as documented. it's absolute necessity to prove own intelligence and DRY-adherence by creatively rigging the build system.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/08/no-arrests-in-drug-drone-prison-crash-and-mid-flight-seizure/#comment-67856
mircea_popescu: but i think a large-ish part of hte problem is that build process per se is not actually specified.
mircea_popescu: much like the bloviating bovines / paul biggars of the world perceive bitcoin to be "a safe space for their creativity" or somesuch, similarly build process.
mircea_popescu: so it attracts a certain sort of stupid, not just in the sense of "a certain sort of stupid people", but actually a certain sort of stupid OUT OF people, even normally intelligent ones.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is because it is a broken-fauced-water-raft.
asciilifeform: *faucet
asciilifeform: i.e. tries to paper over the 10,001 under- and un- specified 'systemwide-installed' deps.
mircea_popescu: possibly. or alternately because nobody ever said "do it like this or i will fuck your children with many tiny bottle openers. in the eyes."
asciilifeform: well the latter. and this would include 'either EVERY supported box has it LIKE-SO, or you bundle it with the proggy. no exceptions.'
mircea_popescu: aha. in fact i suspect both issues are present, and reciprocally reinforcing.
mircea_popescu: for good or bad.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526687 << yes. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 13:48 asciilifeform: then again, he argued - imho very successfully - against a canonical ~tree~, not against www which shows all known vpatches in tree form
mircea_popescu: this'd be exactly it.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526691 << the "consensus" is that if you're unwilling to follow the proper wot and wish to import random strange from whenever, you're stuck handcurating gpg keys manually. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 13:52 jurov: interesting, so the consesnus is apparently wot does not mean anything anymore and i should curate gpg keys manually?
jurov: and wtf is proper wot?
mircea_popescu: the consensus in my head also is that if you keep with this whiny anal child subversive bullshit i'll bitchslap you so far up your mother's ass friends and family won't be able to reassemble the pieces.
jurov: wtf is proper wot?
jurov: go on, bitchslap
mircea_popescu: the irresistible lure of teh derpage ffs.
asciilifeform: jurov: is it in some way unclear who has business submitting patches ?
jurov: Yes it is.
mircea_popescu: no dude, znort hasn't been following along is perfectly able to resolve this problem ; jurov has been around since forever "doesn't know" how to ask. here, follow the noob, mayhap you learn something : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-21#1526230 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-21 13:23 znort987: trinque: thx, what I was looking for.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: znort went off into heathendom
asciilifeform: 'resolving' 'problems' aha.
asciilifeform: just the other day.
asciilifeform: is being 'helped' by kako as we speak, likely. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: i dun care for the content, tbh. form will carry this matter all the way it needs to go.
jurov: and what do i do with output of $wot ?
jurov: znort indeed did not resolve anything
asciilifeform: jurov: related - i shit thee not - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3agpo4 .
asciilifeform: re 'unclear who has business'.
mircea_popescu: a) you see who deedbot trusts. that is called the l1. b) you see who l1 trusts. that is called the l2.
mircea_popescu: this, srsly, is new material ?
jurov: alf says something different
asciilifeform: rly?
jurov: only 5 ppl are in deedbot l2 ?
mircea_popescu: no, not really, but "creating the controversy" might "help".
asciilifeform: jurov: am i mistaken that classical turdatron was an l1 device ?
jurov: no it was l2
asciilifeform: then i stand corrected.
asciilifeform: but it really oughta be l1.
mircea_popescu: the whole nonsense unpleasantly reminds me of that sf story about a socialist future where people got "handicaps" to match their intelligence, lest they're smarter than their stupid parents / the runts in the litter.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'harrison bergeron'
asciilifeform: k. vonnegut
mircea_popescu: jurov is smart kid, gotta have some ankle weights of stupid and loud noises in inner ear lest he doesn't fit in with the idiots he originally originated with anymore. ☟︎
asciilifeform: i read it as a boy, it was brainmelting
mircea_popescu: it's a sore sight and naught else.
asciilifeform: 'this is reality'
mircea_popescu: whenever it is a reality i blame the mother.
mircea_popescu: woman's ONLY task is to protect her male offspring from this.
mircea_popescu: do that and let them starve, it'll count as a job well done.
asciilifeform: i'd rather like to know what it is that is actually bothering jurov. (could hazard a guess, but would rather not)
jurov: yes i did have handicap. because i did not ever get SANE answer "why our supposed betters ever contemplated sending zerofee tx"
jurov: sorry, the doubt is crippling
jurov: dunno if my mother has anything with that
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: jurov: what would 'sane answer' look like, in your mind ?
jurov: "i made a mistake"
asciilifeform: jurov: do you recall the lightoller paper ?
jurov: he did not insist chinese sank titanic
asciilifeform: jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-14#921826 << thread. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-11-14 19:44 mircea_popescu: maybe.
mircea_popescu: how the fuck is "sane answer" to be established via regexp with given string is what i want to know.
asciilifeform: jurov: fwiw, my own btctron is configured ~exactly like (we infer) mircea_popescu's was - very 'old' coins are sent 0fee.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) yes i do "manual payments" ; this however does not mean i create the txn by hand. i'd think this'd be obvious ; b) any and all, this and all sorts of other resources are used to establish things about the network. i am, for the record, THE FIRST, and also for years THE ONLY both systematically sending txnfees "not needed" and pushing for others to do so. it is utterly not because i'm trying to shave pennies t
mircea_popescu: hat i'd do such a thing.
mircea_popescu: i'd guess a and esp b should be obvious. if they aren't obvious, the problem is almost certainly not what's stated.
asciilifeform: i dun think anyone was imagining mircea_popescu creating tx on grid paper, with pencil, no.
mircea_popescu: yes, the proposition that "sane answer" === "i made a mistake" necessarily implies that as a precursor.
jurov: i am now matching mircea's answers against regexp? that was really clever retort.
mircea_popescu: and for the record, the reason we don't have an obnoxiously impudent mining cartel today is almost entirely due to that root, and its fruit.
mircea_popescu: accept that or don't, i dun particularly care nor does in fact have any effects. but history is history, rather than fantasy.
asciilifeform: (incidentally, it was never wholly clear to me why 0fee tx was ever a thing.)
asciilifeform: it is really part of the major gap in the design, where ~nodes~ pay eternally for disk footprint, but ~miner~ gets the fee
shinohai: ^
mircea_popescu: best i can discern two things : 1) derp wanted to discourage old coinbases accumulating (had intuition about the blockchain bloat didn't want to address or know how to) ; 2) fees would have been HUGE early on without this, as in, "fuck you, you wanna transact it's 50 cents. i dun care your 1k btc is enough for a pizza slice ie 2 bux"
mircea_popescu: so might well have been forced mistake because of 2, even if in all likeliness satoshi put it in because of 1
mircea_popescu: (which, incidentally, is an antipattern of software irl that's very fucking often visible. tech wants to do a "Stupid" thing for a stupid reason ; management lets them for an entirely different reason)
asciilifeform: encouraging movement of coin 'for the sake of movement' leads to ~moar~ bloat, via 'utxo' frag effect, rather than less...
mircea_popescu: you srsly think this was modelled worth a crap in 2009 ?
mircea_popescu: 90% of btc pre 0.4 is intuition by mas.
mircea_popescu: mass*
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a point, if shitoshi had ~modelled~ anything, he may well have junked the whole thing and - not necessarily published anything at all.
asciilifeform: bitcoin as it is reminds me, more than anything, of the french aerial machine gun during ww1
asciilifeform: where several pilots had actually died via shooting out own propeller
asciilifeform: and the solution was somehow seen as 'make armoured propeller'
mircea_popescu: i don't necessarily dispute that he THOUGHT about it for many years. but there's a profound difference between these two things. psychological first of all.
asciilifeform: and it took a german to arrive at something like an actual solution (sync gear for the gun bolt)
phf: teh log, it never stops
mircea_popescu: this is the log. there are many like it, but this one is good. it is your best friend. it is your life. you must read it like you read your wife.
phf: diana_coman: i think i didn't say enough on the subject. the core of what i did in order to get it to build on mac os x is fix autoconf scripts, if i revisit mac os x build in a couple of weeks, i'll try and provide a portable patch
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526708 << i had nothing to do with this, for all i know it's lizard hitler's a111 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 14:01 asciilifeform: aaaaand up. lol.
mircea_popescu: o.O
asciilifeform: phf: interestingly, it was 404 for about half a minute.
phf: dat latency, digitalocean has been running on a generator and a modem past few days i think
asciilifeform: not ping dead, no
asciilifeform: actual 404 pg.
phf: :o
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the only thing i can think re "digitalocean" is that place in the pacific where there's a trillion little bits of plastic, ground down by wind and sun over the decades.
diana_coman: phf, sounds cool
mircea_popescu: you know, discrete-ized ocean.
asciilifeform: (what does phf's wwwtronics stack do when there is no available worker? or how does it work)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought it was called 'rubbish island'
mircea_popescu: phf they prolly put you behind cloudflare/homebrewed equivalent as a service or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: $up Twix
deedbot: Twix voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "north pacific gyre" aite.
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, it's the worker exhaustion, but since it's my favorite threadless cmucl, situations under which "no available worker" are numerous and fantastical
asciilifeform: phf: i guessed as much.
mircea_popescu: like what ?
phf: well, judging by logs someone did fuzzing against it
asciilifeform: (phuctor suffers from similar problem, python does not really have working threading either)
phf: a whole bunch of coherent, but bogus urls. with spaces, ? & in wrong places, etc.
mircea_popescu: ah, that's just normal scriptkiddery.
mircea_popescu: the net is mostly newcomers. somehow.
asciilifeform: phf: at one point i got 1,001 of these daily
asciilifeform: countless variations on 'this fella MUST be php monkey, let's try all known monkeypoison'
asciilifeform: incl. probes against the (never existing) wordpress on that box.
asciilifeform: (somehow a box without wordpress is unthinkable to these folk.)
mircea_popescu: you'll laugh, but the point is not so much untinkable as not valuable. ~all of them, if actually given access, will happily post links "for google to see" and that's all.
asciilifeform: thinking here of the folks who show symptoms of 'manually cranked' probemeister, vs the usual bots.
mircea_popescu: a small fraction will do the more nefarious bit of hosting pharma / child porn / whatever pages to link from OTHER wordpress / email blasts.
asciilifeform: (e.g., lengthy browsing of what i consider 'interesting' pages on the site previously)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no , no, the ones that appear manually cranked are just the same 3-4 bots "sold" on "underground forums", but with exceptionally inept operators. such as ahmed.
mircea_popescu: nah, the reason for that is because they find you from google, or equiv, which is an approximation of "what a human would think interesting"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cannot be ruled out. though the level of decorative dressing is quite ludicrous, in that case.
mircea_popescu: it's not even deliberate, just byproduct of how the process works. they'd cut it out if they knew how.
asciilifeform: now that mircea_popescu mentioned it, i recall an 'elaborate bots' thread.
phf: speaking of wordpress, mysql keeps consistently crashing. i don't think i've had a unix daemon crash on me in the recent memory, this is a first
mircea_popescu: not that there aren't a precious few competent folk out there. but they suffer a heavy demographic burden in the form of idiot us sucking them in to "build companies" and go to conferences and waste their lives for belonging&jam-tomorrow ; and the rest are fucking busy raping nsa and such.
mircea_popescu: phf i dun think that ever happened to trilema.
phf: i suspect not
asciilifeform: now we need a vintage mysql..?
mircea_popescu: my angry forays into apache/mysql are in the logs. that shit sucks.
asciilifeform: (the pill against 'omfg, this has never before crashed', sad as it is, is generally to rewind version again and again...)
phf: oh i think maybe it's a memory issue :D i'm running it on a $5 512mb instance
asciilifeform: fwiw i have yet to see postgres crash. but there is always a time for a first.
phf: and no wap
phf: *swap
mircea_popescu: phf nah. half gb is ample.
mircea_popescu: what, no swap at all ?
mircea_popescu: or you mean very small
phf: no, just not even registered
mircea_popescu: eh i'm surprised it works at all.
mircea_popescu: look through it, it has swap existing hardwire throughout.
phf: it exhausts the 512mb and quietly dies
mircea_popescu: aha. make a swap.
phf: 160822 9:30:08 InnoDB: Fatal error: cannot allocate memory for the buffer pool
mircea_popescu: do we put this down to "lamp sucks" or to "operator egregious eggog" ?
phf: 512mb ought to be enough for anyone!
mircea_popescu: i thought it said so in the linux manual cca 1996, "linux can not be run without swap. don't even try."
mircea_popescu: that they stopped saying it doesn't mean anything changed ; they just thought everyone got the idea.
asciilifeform runs without swap.
mircea_popescu: you probably run without panties, also.
asciilifeform: all swap does is prolong an agonizing and inevitable death.
asciilifeform: i can see using swap on a 486 with 8M, where it makes the diff between being able to load emacs and not.
asciilifeform: elsewhere, it is simply sad.
phf: log server runs without swap, but it's because cmucl stays within it's heap and nginx memory variance is negligible
shinohai: You can't even build prb without setting a swap space. Or at least I haven't been successful yet.
phf: also it's got couple of gigs of ram, for ~~500mb in memory log
asciilifeform: shinohai: you are on what, a 486 with 8M ?
shinohai: Nope, digital ocean droplet w 2gb
shinohai: still fails
asciilifeform: shinohai: even trb will run for no more than 2-3 weeks on 2G.
shinohai: this is just during build-from-source process.
phf: come to think of me my laptop runs without swap, because i mucked with write permissions on mac os x's swap file, but it's not ever a problem at 16gb
phf: *of it
asciilifeform: a reasonable dev box for 'modern' bloatrocities contains at least 32G.
asciilifeform: (sad, neh? nsa crays in '90s never dreamed of 32G.)
danielpbarron: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://danielpbarron.com/qntra/bitbet-owner-addresses-solvency-concerns.asc.txt
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519442 << don't you now wish that wasn't the case, lol, the guy is like an ultra-wrecker, shitting all over that codebase ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 16:31 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: also, I'm not taking thousands in donations. jackdaniel is being paid several k to work on CLIM
asciilifeform: phf: eons have passed since i last could be arsed to read clim. what happened ?
phf: asciilifeform: that attention from fundraiser and marketing that gabriel_laddel was so excited about ~obviously~ attracted not talent, but the usual modernizer suspects. i'm reading their channel logs and marvel. ☟︎
phf: in the immortal words of ivan chesnokov, YOU HAVE DISEASE OF AMERICAN CAPITALIST, CHANGE THING THAT IS FINE FOR NO REASON EXCEPT TO LOOK DIFFERENT FROM COMRADE.
asciilifeform: phf: 'fresh meat in the sun'
asciilifeform: as discussed on numerous occasions.
asciilifeform: gift for the flies.
phf: everyone agrees "we need windows backend" obviously, stodgy and dated decisions are being gradually replaced with "modern" equivalents. someone literally used the phrase "people come to expect from modern ui"
asciilifeform: l0l!!
asciilifeform: then again clim is perhaps ~the~ place for this phrase.
asciilifeform: i won't use a gui that ignores mouse wheel.
asciilifeform: just won't.
asciilifeform: it can fuck itself.
phf: bordeaux-threads stopped building with my asdf1, i checked, someone hardcoded >3.11 check, with ~no purpose for it~. next thing i know i read "<jackdaniel> [04:44:30] but don't use clim's mp, I've reimplemented it on top of bordeaux-thread just for backward compatibility" on #clim
asciilifeform: and if i wanted to use a gui where i can sit and WATCH IT REDRAW, i will use microshit word.
asciilifeform: motherfucker is slow even on 16 cpu.
asciilifeform: at 3GHz.
phf: asciilifeform: it needs work, but it's literally one of the few gui frameworks untouched by lizard hitler, unless you want to write raw xlib or tty outputs
phf: not anymore, assholes!
phf: it's modernization time
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Thing is more gossip than news. What happened? There may be a way to rewrite it into news, but it is still early this morning.
asciilifeform: phf: if we discover that the only way to have a usably snappy clim is custom iron, i am willing to consider custom iron.
asciilifeform: but what i am ~not~ willing to do is to close eyes and play pretend
asciilifeform: and accept behaviour that i will not accept from microshit.
phf: asciilifeform: nobody's asking you, this is for people who want a fixer-upper. you don't want to use cmucl either, because it's half baked. it does feel just a tad "i just want to", but i can't necessarily fault you for it
asciilifeform: actually phf made an imho quite persuasive defense of cmucl.
phf: i'm just hoping nobody's going to do a fundraiser for it. thank god gabriel_laddel hasn't discovered it yet
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300 << see also.
phf cackles with mirth at seeing his city burn
phf: where's ma fiddle
asciilifeform: when i move into a house, demanding 'yes this place WILL have a toilet or no deal' != 'i just want to!'
asciilifeform: there is such a thing as minimal hygienic standard.
danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, what gossip?
phf: i like that story i read on livejournal long time ago. this soviet guy was telling, so he's sent to forced farming на посевы, bunch of guys digging for potatoes, middle of fucking nowhere. and then there's news, some deposed aristocrat is sent to join, so naturally jokes all around, since the toilet is a mess (it's a bunch of guys!) "how's his excellency going to use the facilities справлять нужду" "probably unaccustomed to working
phf: class living" etc. anyway, guy arrives goes to toilet, comes out, grabs a broom and a bucket and cleans it. the moral is tediously obvious (it's a fucking liverjournal story), but it stuck with me. living in orcland is kind of like that
asciilifeform: phf: 'Разруха. Это - мираж, дым, фикция. Что такое эта ваша разруха? Старуха с клюкой? Ведьма, которая выбила все стекла, потушила все лампы? Да ее вовсе и не существует. Это вот что: если я, вместо того, чтобы оперировать каждый вечер, начну у себя
asciilifeform: в квартире петь хором, у меня настанет разруха. Если я, входя в уборную, начну, извините за выражение, мочиться мимо унитаза и то же самое будут делать Зина и Дарья Петровна, в уборной начнется разруха. Следовательно, разруха не в клозетах, а
asciilifeform: в головах. Когда эти баритоны кричат "бей разруху!" - Я смеюсь. Клянусь вам, мне смешно! Это означает, что каждый из них должен лупить себя по затылку! '
asciilifeform: ^ sacramental.
asciilifeform: phf: the 'grabs a broom and a bucket and cleans it' incidentally is more or less the story of my 1st year of trb.
phf: prof preobrazhensky failed at judicious application of nagant? :p
BingoBoingo: <danielpbarron> BingoBoingo, what gossip? << The signed recollection by minimally collected guy.
BingoBoingo: *connected guy
phf: you're gonna like this guy. he's all right. he's a good fella. he's one of us.
BingoBoingo: All pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal!
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Based on the way the guy interesctionalittitties with my WoT maybe your blog is the best place to make the point you want to make about it?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526916 << "advertise and filter" is a fucking tall order to do right. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 16:40 phf: asciilifeform: that attention from fundraiser and marketing that gabriel_laddel was so excited about ~obviously~ attracted not talent, but the usual modernizer suspects. i'm reading their channel logs and marvel. ☟︎
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/12b1a02b-d351-41f0-b26d-54f25f4443aa/
mircea_popescu: lol piss on your own head.
mircea_popescu: and in other unrelated news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8mny1gHtH1rq6vz1o1_500.gif
shinohai: *smack!*
asciilifeform: re mpi referred to in the automake thread, updates:
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/mpi/mpi_second_cut.vpatch
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/mpi/mpi_second_cut.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/mpi/sane-mpi.tar.gz
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/mpi/sane-mpi.txt
asciilifeform: ^ the tarball is the result of press, and included SOLELY for reference.
asciilifeform: the vpatch consists heavily of minusola and FUCK GNUDIFF ALREADY.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/08/nth-french-republic-sending-tourists-to-belgium-for-death/ << Qntra - Nth French Republic Sending Tourists To Belgium For Death
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1533 has been updated.
danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, what is the point of qntra? is it soley to bring non-republic news ~in~ or can it also be to tell republic news to the outside? I think it is certainly news that the new owner of bitbet is taking the time to speak in public (this channel)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: notably, see include/knobs.h. THIS is what we get instead of automake.
asciilifeform: it weighs 2261 bytes.
asciilifeform: the makefile - 516.
asciilifeform: if anyone finds something resembling a reasonable unix box this WON'T build on by simply running 'make', PLEASE let me know!
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Qntra pointedly tells republic news to the outside, BUT znort does not at this time have a relation to anyone I know such that his signature carries more weight than rando unsigned pastebins
asciilifeform: note that i no longer intend to use mpi for anything. it was posted as a deautomakeification demo.
danielpbarron: $gettrust BingoBoingo znort987
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 2 by 2 connections.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: cheers.
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: There's prolly a way to rewrite what you submitted to news it up, but as you presented it it wasn't news. Maybe a "look how unlucky this guy is" angle would help? All those misfortunes may very well involve malice on the part of persons other than him. Such an angle could be very newsy.
danielpbarron: unlucky for what? the hacked email?
BingoBoingo: What you submitted at this time however was not that. You presented the signed block as basically "take this as what it is" and "here are other people doubting it" leaving unrepublican b00bs to wonder wtf?
ben_vulpes: so i'm flattening and rebuilding this barely-used macbook pro, and frames of animated language names scrolling sideways on the "what language" screen are tearing
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: The hacked email and the targeted use of it.
ben_vulpes: IN THE OS INSTALL PROCESS
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: ANyways where again were the lulz in "Heroic Jap Stationwagon Swats Traffic Disrupting Pedelarast" I still haven't found it.
ben_vulpes: oh just in that some saudi is going to get spirited out of the country before getting lynched
ben_vulpes: decent "us has no sovereignty, can't effect their own honor killings" angle
ben_vulpes: or "can't piss off uae sponsors of us terrorism on global stage" angle
BingoBoingo: Oh, well why did you not write it up and why would he be lynched for doing a pubic service?
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, is blockchain.info being mitm'd atm ?
danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, I don't understand your logic here. Even your criticism of znort's reputation is addressed in my copy. But whatever I'll just post it on my own blog
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/NtTPs << speculation re why.
asciilifeform has not attempted to verify
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Mebbe verify and submit to qntra?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if yer gonna mention redditola here, plox to link ??!
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: not redditola, there was a bikeportland.org link
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yer ctrl key is broken or what.
ben_vulpes: pardon?
asciilifeform: can haz link ?
ben_vulpes: http://bikeportland.org/2016/08/20/speeding-driver-kills-teenage-girl-who-was-crossing-se-hawthorne-189858
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: where is the part re 'spirited out'
asciilifeform: ?
BingoBoingo: ? I wondered too
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/1n5C8 << about half the world can't locate them atm
mircea_popescu: the half that can is all natoreich, and sees 104.16.54/3
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw, resolves here in the heart of mordor.
asciilifeform: (took ~20 sec tho.)
mircea_popescu: quite my point.
ben_vulpes shrugs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah, i misread, the half that CAN.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
mircea_popescu: looks like a rather shaping attack of some kind.
asciilifeform: i have nfi why a usg organ in good standing needs 'attack'
BingoBoingo: Imma have some cumpany soon, so someone get to the bottom of this other thing and submit.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i have nfi why a usg organ in good standing needs 'attack' << Innocence washing
asciilifeform: possibly.
phf: ben_vulpes: that's what you get for installing >10.9. i tried it one a company machine, took ~~2 hours. fresh install, ssd. insanity.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Innocence washing is one of oldest SOPs
mircea_popescu: ;;tslb
gribble: Error: Problem retrieving latest block data.
mircea_popescu: ^ gribble can't see it.
ben_vulpes: ;;balance 1b1tco1ne34ter
gribble: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
ben_vulpes: ;;balance 1DskTjGvWh5KVbiqnb3vvRFyEmCen1UNzL
ben_vulpes: ;;balance 1DskTjGvWh5KVbiqnb3vvRFyEmCen1UNzL
gribble: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
mircea_popescu: also, it's not just blockchain. the relay network lost about half of its edges since an hour ago
mircea_popescu: seems ~more or less, "cloudflare turned off the chunk of bitcoin '''infrastructure''' ran by imbeciles imbecilisyh eno0ugh to rely on cloudflare" ☟︎
ben_vulpes: cloudfront is somehow involved in the relay network?
ben_vulpes: er
ben_vulpes: cloudflare
ben_vulpes is suffering from cloudfusion
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes : https://archive.is/mZfNl
mircea_popescu: evidently.
mircea_popescu: anyway. last block was ~half hour ago.
ben_vulpes: corallos's?
mircea_popescu: huh ?
ben_vulpes: nm
mircea_popescu: a here we go.
mircea_popescu: 997,999 kb har.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's your top block atm ?
asciilifeform: dulap & zoolag are at 426394.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1527034 << if this is true - good riddance! let's hope it stays dead ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 18:19 mircea_popescu: seems ~more or less, "cloudflare turned off the chunk of bitcoin '''infrastructure''' ran by imbeciles imbecilisyh eno0ugh to rely on cloudflare"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: now that i think about it, i dun recall prb having ssl eater in it
asciilifeform: does it now ?
asciilifeform: (if not, how would cloudfart shutting down affect prb relays ?)
phf: well, that's what you get for..! oh, nevermind
pete_dushenski: bc.i is down here.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: btw what was that dating thing all about ?
mircea_popescu: in future lulz, 2b70ba3f5b9cb57fc76dba558cfe54f0b45d06433c1fc5ac454cb765e558a10865363958fcc6f4bd91c5ee43d742b8e160d74fc5e6b9232ed8d8a40cebc14e43
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's that
pete_dushenski: i dunno but bet i could fit that hash on my dong lengthwise.
asciilifeform: sha512(icbm_launchcodes.txt) ?
pete_dushenski: of course, no one will pay for this...
pete_dushenski: so i'd be working pro boner.
shinohai: xD
pete_dushenski: in other weird, http://www.vocativ.com/220997/autism-elevators-youtube/
pete_dushenski: “I myself am autistic,” says Reams. “Not everybody that does these elevator [videos] is autistic but I would say at least 80 to 90 percent of them are.”
pete_dushenski: "The channel is mostly filled with videos like the one described above: clips of Reams and friends riding in elevators. They ride elevators in hotels. They ride elevators in hospitals. They ride elevators in office blocks and public buildings. They film their rides in elevators. They film each other filming their rides in elevators."
danielpbarron: $reputation BingoBoingo
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/5d335262-f67b-4b46-bbf2-c1d4557dd50a/
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-usb/msg144177.html
asciilifeform: 'Linux Kernel panics when using an OHCI controller if a USB device reports being a generic HID keyboard and reports a wMaxPacketSize of over 4095. The OHCI controller driver fails to reserve bandwidth for the device, causing the keyboard handler to fail when attaching to the HID. Later, when the device is removed, the system crashes due to a null pointer dereference in a linked list of endpoint descriptors.'
deedbot: http://danielpbarron.com/2016/bitbet-owner-addresses-solvency-concerns/ << Daniel P. Barron - BitBet Owner Addresses Solvency Concerns ☟︎
asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/08/malware-infected-all-eddie-bauer-stores-in-u-s-canada/#more-35378 << noose?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski 's favourite backpack is eddie bauer
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i think the krebs thing may be my 1st time hearing of the vendor outside of a spamogram.
mod6: ;;bc,blocks
gribble: {"blockcount":426401}
mod6: this is what i've got ^
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: eddie bauer is very 'outdoorsy'. they specialise in the climbing / hiking demo. mathmaticians may or may not overlap with this set.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: dunno, i get quite satisfactory outdoor duty out of old .mil gear from various dead empires
asciilifeform: for pennies on the original dollar/ruble/deutschmark
pete_dushenski pictures alf summiting with pointed reich helmet
asciilifeform: well the bmore folks - do
asciilifeform: ( see recent BingoBoingo link )
pete_dushenski: aha.
pete_dushenski: they're travelling more horizontally than vertically though
pete_dushenski: less likely to spear eagles, more likely to spear pigeons
pete_dushenski: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/22/bitcoin-investments-cryptocurrency-traded-digital-money << "Is bitcoin the answer if traditional investments are letting you down?"
phf: this looks as outdoorsy as SUVs are designed for sport
pete_dushenski: you apparently haven't seen the cayenne turbo s / grand cherokee srt8 / x6m class of sporty suvs.
shinohai: phf There was Eddie Bauer edition Ford Explorer iirc, speaking of SUV's
pete_dushenski: so there was. usual 'paint+badge edition' for american vehicles. see also 'daytona 500 edition' camaros, 'mary kay' pink cadillacs, 'hertz' mustangs
pete_dushenski: gimicky marketing for maroons.
pete_dushenski: '1 of only 10000' !!
pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/29/petes-guide-to-investing-in-cars/ << for why that's waaaay too many units produced to be valuable on the secondary market
shinohai: Complete with luxury heated leather seats for those rough weekends in the mountains.
phf: i think mary kay ping cadillacs are awesome. so trashy
phf: *pink
pete_dushenski: shinohai: heated ~and~ cooled ventilated seats ftw.
pete_dushenski: for black on black vehicles these are sine qua non
pete_dushenski: in other bad investment, http://www.freddiemac.com/multifamily/product/pdf/green_advantage_term_sheet.pdf
pete_dushenski: "We’ll underwrite up to 75% of projected energy savings" << need moar projections!!1
ben_vulpes: phf: i'd take one
ben_vulpes: kinda want one of those hilariously garish 2-door caddies in a matte pink
phf: ben_vulpes: it's only worthwhile when it comes with a voluptuous russ meyer blond bimbo
phf: and gass is 20c a gallon
ben_vulpes: my popesculator says "no no, the blond comes *in* the cadillac" ☟︎
asciilifeform: in other 'news', http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/worth.htm
asciilifeform: 'Estimating Worth - "How $VALUABLE$ is my VAX?"'
asciilifeform: 'Of course the first thing you have to understand is who is your customer. And to answer that you need to know just who is buying VAXen these days. The list it turns out is really short....'
phf: and you have a pocketful of those 60s amphetamines, so you can hit every diner from chicago to springfield in 3 days, and then come back knowing exactly which one has the best milkshake
asciilifeform: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-MicroVax-II-World-Box-VMS-3-7-with-documentation-set-/232013130536 << demand for vax, apparently, still strong.
asciilifeform: >400 usd for DEAD unit.
pete_dushenski: phf: 'my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard'
phf: asciilifeform: there's a massive hobbyist market. well to do corporate programmers spending monthly paychecks on retrohardware. when i was buying my xl1201, i was bidding against a guy, who's been doing a tech lead thing since the 90s (an unbearably aspy fellow). he said that he was so pissed he didn't get it, he put a 12k starting bid on the next one and still got it for around 6k
asciilifeform: phf: the bolix was a special, really, case
asciilifeform: not really comparable to a vax imho.
asciilifeform: (there is, for instance, no wholly satisfactory emulator.)
asciilifeform: ^ how many old comps can you say this for.
asciilifeform: nor is the arch fully documented (again 'how many... say this for')
asciilifeform: i cannot immediately name any other vintage comp that is 'cult object' comparable to the late lispm's.
phf: right, so vax goes for a fraction of the cost. still same guy who put me in touch with dks, and spends 5k on each bolix, will spend fraction of that on a vax, because "it ain't bolix of course, but it's still cool"
asciilifeform: this'd be the folks who use'em as coffee tables, neh ?
asciilifeform: (only situation where the two are roughly similar!)
asciilifeform: and i hear 'cray II' made a killer sofa.
phf: vax lisp is a thing :p
asciilifeform: not only a thing, but helped to nail lispm with 'good enuff' on the high end market.
asciilifeform: iirc vax is where franz started out.
phf: but no it's just a special kind of mindset, i don't know how to else call it but people who are into "retrohardware". there's a pecking order there between "i have an amiga and a macintosh" and "i have a vax, a pdp, a ..."
phf: those people ~spend~. i mean they make the most money to put them in what used to be middle class bracket, but they don't spend it on houses and cars. instead on vaxen
asciilifeform: when i was a sad student and pinched pennies to buy lispm parts, then much later the machine, i did not yet realize that turning the physical object into an emulator would take 20 yrs that i dun have.
asciilifeform: so now i have the dough to get whatever machines, and it no longer appeals.
asciilifeform: and yes phf that last batch of sinners includes asciilifeform , just that he is not buying vaxen etc.
phf: those machines are joy to handle though, for same reason old keyboards are pleasant. they are not "made in china", but with steel chasis out of descrete units, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: even as late as late '90s, machines with such 'feel' were made. ☟︎
phf: you know all that
phf: oh i remembe
asciilifeform: i had an hp 'pa-risc'
asciilifeform: it was a marvel of iron cages and emp shields etc.
asciilifeform: weighed approx. what a standard girl per mircea_popescu does.
phf: shit, i had a store bought compaq 486, which had ~solid frame~. not bolix, but somewhere there
asciilifeform: even ibm xt was quite 'ferrous' compared to modern junk.
asciilifeform: (~wholly sheet steel)
asciilifeform: recall when a cpu was a ceramic brick with gold-plated machine screw trunk sticking out of it ?
asciilifeform: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/KL_HP_PA_RISC_7150.jpg << like-so.
asciilifeform: and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/HP-HP9000-PA-RISC-NS1-CPU_30.jpg << so.
asciilifeform: i imagine most of'em have been melted down at this point.
BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> BingoBoingo: btw what was that dating thing all about ? << Trilema makes it better when you let trilema into your heart
pete_dushenski: eh i'm not much for dating. tried it once. was satisfied that i'd sufficiently sorted it out. moved on.
pete_dushenski: others are free to continue. for them, i'm sure trilema will be of use with regards to cutting the gordian knot.
BingoBoingo: $s znort987
a111: 47 results for "znort987", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=znort987
phf: didn't danielpbarron made a point a few times that one is not to seek a wife
pete_dushenski: that might also be ex post rationalisation
ben_vulpes: nono pete_dushenski there really are no women out there worth wifing!
danielpbarron: most important is to believe in the entire Bible, the rest follows.
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: HYPOCRITE
pete_dushenski: danielpbarron: causes. aha.
danielpbarron: I mean, if you don't believe, then marry or don't, it's not like adhering to the rules without faith is worth anything
BingoBoingo: Nah, dating is a sort of sorting.
pete_dushenski: dating is more signalling your own value. pre-dating / scouting is sorting.
BingoBoingo: Nah pre-dating is rought sorting. Dating is a finer sort of sorting.
BingoBoingo: WTF is this signalling my own value stuff. I have inner peace and it apparently radiates.
phf: dating is the same kind of sorting as choosing between coke and pepsi at a grocery store
BingoBoingo: You must be sorting some bland pussy.
phf: obviously no true scotsman!
BingoBoingo: Only the Truest Scotsman, Idi Amin, the last king of the Scots!
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
pete_dushenski: only true imins drive merc 600 grossers
gribble: Current Blocks: 426412 | Current Difficulty: 2.1737548275723764E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 427391 | Next Difficulty In: 979 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 5 hours, 39 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 583.15, vol: 4962.09361008 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 586.765, vol: 8263.83094 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 588.29, vol: 4387.8261918 | GDAX BTCUSD last: 583.46, vol: 4475.50010439 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 588.576864, vol: 46042.42140000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 588.31, vol: 672.0591571 | Gemini BTCUSD last: 587.16, vol: 1372.60688695 | OKCoin BTCUSD last: 589.72592, vol: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 387039.9753 | Volume-weighted last average: 589.400425341
pete_dushenski: okcoin doing 5x volume of everyone else combined ? mkay.
BingoBoingo: Well, maybe they are least laggy today?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1527071 << lol teh drama thickens. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 18:55 deedbot: http://danielpbarron.com/2016/bitbet-owner-addresses-solvency-concerns/ << Daniel P. Barron - BitBet Owner Addresses Solvency Concerns
shinohai: Your outlook on s.qntra is rather grim though danielpbarron
BingoBoingo: Everyone has to make their own value determinations.
shinohai: Works for me
phf: pretty much everyone here was subjected to dpb's harsh judgement at one point or another, as is right and proper, he keeps us in check
BingoBoingo: Which is why danielpbarron is wise.
shinohai: If I wanted echo-chamber I'd go back to reddit.
mircea_popescu: he actually gets away with it better than alf.
asciilifeform isn't working from a scripture and labours under the handicap of occasionally being convinced by other folks of sumthing
phf: it's probably because alf is nominally gentle intelligentsia, where dpb can badmouth you and you ~know~ it could be worse
mircea_popescu: hm.
mircea_popescu: well the explanatory theories are well varied.
asciilifeform: re 'let's abolish buildroot', turns out, surprise! -- there were attempts at sanity : http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html
asciilifeform: 'Aboriginal Linux is a shell script that builds the smallest/simplest linux system capable of rebuilding itself from source code. This currently requires seven packages ...'
asciilifeform: extra lulz at the tail end of the page.
asciilifeform: ( grep for 'Why does this matter?' )
phf: wonder if i could put pkgsrc on top of it
asciilifeform: ^ musslatronic, also, looks like.
asciilifeform: the build scripts are tiny, resemble mod6's.
mircea_popescu: not bad eh.
pete_dushenski: please, it's 'first nations linux'. aboriginal is so 2010.
asciilifeform: # This version of bash is ancient, but it provides everything most package
asciilifeform: # builds need and is less than half the size of current versions.
asciilifeform: ^ from 'download.sh'
BingoBoingo: Anyways this dispute danielpbarron raised largely relates to how different people navigate the WoT. At this point in time I'm not providing weight to low information connections.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1527107 << i suppose she could also come on, or near. but with ffs ? ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 20:46 ben_vulpes: my popesculator says "no no, the blond comes *in* the cadillac"
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/08/fratire-retailer-suffers-pervasive-malware-installation/ << Qntra - Fratire Retailer Suffers Pervasive Malware Installation
pete_dushenski: "astounding normal" << astoundingly
pete_dushenski: ""Fratire" is a type of 21st-century fiction literature written for and marketed to young men in a politically incorrect and overtly masculine fashion. The term was coined following the popularity of works by George Ouzounian (writing under the pen name Maddox) and Tucker Max." << o.O
pete_dushenski admits to being confused as to latest qntra title
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Fratire (2) A clothing style favored by "preppy" folk. Combination of Fraternity and Attire.
pete_dushenski: aha. the tsmr dictionary groweth.
pete_dushenski: tmsr*
asciilifeform: in other 'olds', material pertinent to http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-10#1517688 thread, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27-2WDIZR0 (gold in the comments, 'Seems like a nice tool to capture exotic and endangered birds for my Black Market sales.') ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-08-10 15:16 asciilifeform: incidentally, a Useful Product Idea, plug-in replacement guidance module for popular flying toys, to pick arbitrary quiet frequency spread in a reasonably broad swatch of spectrum, when remote is paired with toy, rather than the current 'legal' jammable idiocy.
pete_dushenski: bc.i is back.
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: I'm pretty sure the definition of Fratire is older than the Tucker Max one by decades. Maybe even a whole century.
pete_dushenski: who knew tucker max was so progressive. reappropriating old words is libtard 101. ie. "wage slaves aren't slaves because only blacks can be slaves!!1"
shinohai: BingoBoingo: http://ix.io/1fUH
BingoBoingo: ty
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, anyone recall the original "oh i created social consensus by talking to my own sock puppets on some forum and the imbecile law firm partners BELIEVED IT" scam ?
mircea_popescu: kinda what tucker max is known for, really. notwithstanding various attempts to market self since, essentially it's "im this dude who scammed a bunch of lawyers astroturfing social media"
shinohai: I forgot to add BingoBoingo, Charlie Shrem was unavailable for comment
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/08/noodle-bricks-overtaking-smokes-as-us-prison-currency-standard/ << Qntra - Noodle Bricks Overtaking Smokes As US Prison Currency Standard
mircea_popescu: and in other "better homes and bimbo guestrooms" news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3tuy50uOe1rrhvpno1_500.gif
pete_dushenski: " Gresham's Law bitch!" << i lolled :D
ben_vulpes: that redhead and dean!
BingoBoingo: shinohai: He's out and there is little compelling reason to trust his take on trends anyways.
ben_vulpes: f-faye raegan?
BingoBoingo: $gettrust Yankee
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: good set?
ben_vulpes: or video or whatever the variety speak is
mircea_popescu: the idea is nb.
mircea_popescu: "clears the mind".
shinohai: You know, there is a sense of accomplishment that comes from actually getting a story about ramen published in Qntra.
pete_dushenski to anniversary dinner. korean styles!