Azelphur: kakobrekla: breakup a few months ago now :P
Azelphur: nah, never asked and never got
mircea_popescu: ok so, mpex report : the servers are built and racked. they have power. os installed. networking isn't working properly, clustering software being hammered into shape.
mircea_popescu: ahahahaah okcupid blog links their competitor as sausageparty.com
benkay: the joys of private ownership.
benkay: when does it make sense to do a public offering? as in - why would i ever do that?
assbot: When you fuck a stranger in the ass - YouTube
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.18699994 = 0.935 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 247 @ 0.00282 = 0.6965 BTC [-]
benkay: but if i make a profitable thing, why list it on mpex?
peterl: benkay: if you need more capital to grow, then you IPO to get an influx of cash
peterl: or if you want hookers and blow now instead of waiting patiently for your money?
benkay: but mike doesn't need capital
benkay: is it a generous donation to the ecosystem? "here i made this thing and by my grace you can partake of its profits"?
mike_c: WoL does need capital. hence the loan from mpif
benkay: i clearly don't understand WoL in dpeth.
mike_c: join the club. i'm working on that.
peterl: you are saying there is nothing you could do with more money?
benkay: what does WoL need more capital for? seeding pots?
mike_c: minigames are bets against the house
peterl: so it is acting as a casino?
mike_c: more like a cryptocurrency playground
peterl: cryptocurrency casino?
mike_c: ^ like TaT said. put your tokens in, get little tickets.
mike_c: redeem tickets for stuffed animals.
peterl: ah, no chance of getting money back?
mike_c: "money". you can get bitcoin back.
mike_c: the irs explicitly said bitcoin isn't money
peterl: but bitcoin is what you put in
mike_c: bitcoin is what you put in. bitcoin is what you get out.
peterl: so it looks like a casino
mike_c: i think of it more as a playground.
peterl: and what are the buildings in vegas if not playgrounds too?
mike_c: WoL doesn't have any magicians
peterl: why not? that would make it more fun!
mike_c: it's true. i'll put it on the list
benkay: <peterl> you are saying there is nothing you could do with more money? // riddle me this - what does bitbet do with the money?
peterl: I dunno exactly? Seed bets, buy advertising, maintain servers?
benkay: i wonder what kind of load bitbet supports.
benkay: hey kakobrekla can you clue us into the traffic bitbet's pushing?
mike_c: bitbet does nothing with the money. it's a zac
assbot: Number of stray cats on the rise in Laurel and Prince George's County - baltimoresun.com
benkay: so then we come back to my question - why would an an0 company list publically?
mike_c: liquidity for the owners is a big reason
decimation: "According to Volack, most of the stray and wild cats in the city are usually spotted in backyards, and she sometimes gets resistance when she tries to trap the cats. "I've been trying my hardest to capture the strays and feral cats and kittens, but I have just as many people who don't want me to trap them as those who do.""
benkay: so there's the answer i'm looking for - liquidity for the owners.
mike_c: that is one answer. another might have to do with mp's desire to build an ecosystem. but i'll leave that answer to him.
benkay: <benkay> is it a generous donation to the ecosystem? "here i made this thing and by my grace you can partake of its profits"?
mike_c: you are making me answer for him, which i am not qualified to do. but I would guess two things. 1) yes 2) mayhaps some people benefit from advancing the ecosystem.
benkay: the old "adoption" thing.
benkay: apologies, i didnt mean to imply that i was re-asking the question, more that i'd already guessed that was a reason.
peterl: benkay: so there's the answer i'm looking for - liquidity for the owners. << as I said, they want their hookers and blow now
decimation: I think there's a pent-up demand for bitcoin income
mike_c: why does bitcoin price go up? "adoption" seems a poor answer to me. to me it is because the value of the whole system actually increases. perhaps part of that value increase is due to having a more vibrant financial ecosystem.
decimation: seems to me that if you think you can grow your company with more investment, you find investors to grow it
assbot: Prince Georges County Council Ignores Slaughter of Wildlife – Chooses Protection of Feral Cats
decimation: don't forget about the cats! they need equality too!
mike_c: ok testers, WoL just shipped websockets for the minigames.
mike_c: ;;later tell punkman you can lose your money faster now. minigames have websockets.
mike_c: and direct opera bugs to /dev/null (just kidding kako)
mircea_popescu: <benkay> but if i make a profitable thing, why list it on mpex? << nobody's holding a gun to your head no ?
benkay: <mircea_popescu> <benkay> but if i make a profitable thing, why list it on mpex? << nobody's holding a gun to your head no ? // clearly. but why did bitbet list?
benkay: those three days up in a row
mircea_popescu: it's like "why get married", "why make friends", "why eat a steak" or w/e.
benkay: what, listing on mpex tastes good?
benkay: it does, no q, but is that the sole roi?
benkay: mostly 'cause i'm a derpy young thing trying to not. lose. money.
mircea_popescu: existential questions are fundamentally broken because things that exist exist in an infinity of ways, whereas things that are represented are represented in a finite manner.
mircea_popescu: the existential question either exploits or bumbles into this fundamental problem. it can never have an actual answer,
mircea_popescu: much like you can't be delivered the notion of pear or the sadness of joseph.
benkay: well, you'll note the particular questions sprinkled in there.
benkay: like - why did bitbet?
mircea_popescu: but in general : a listed company has some advantages, and some disadvantages. let's look into it.
mthreat: one reason to take investment, even if you could fund it out of your own pocket, is to offset risk from yourself to investors.
mircea_popescu: Capital : a listed company has more capital, and more ready access to capital.
mircea_popescu: Networking : for one thing, your investors are your best pr.
mircea_popescu: Scoring : you get to know how good you're doing, as a manger.
mircea_popescu: these also work together, like n+s : more people are paying attention, so it works like open source for your accounting, for instance.
mircea_popescu: it also has some disadvantages, such as a loss of control, or association with another party or whatever.
mircea_popescu: supposedly mpex manages to mitigate the drawbacks while supercharging the advnatages,
mircea_popescu: but this is really like the discussion of whether bitcoin or network difficulty are too high or too low or w/e.
mircea_popescu: a more practical approach is to look at "why do people get into the wot ?" and go from there. why do people finish highschool ? why do people go on to college ? should everyone with a hs diploma strive to go to college ? etc.
mike_c: mp also has a theory that listing prevents competition because they can just invest in you instead of building a copy.
benkay: very educational. thank you all.
mircea_popescu: this is in fact correct. if someone wants exposure to x market, with a company in x market listed his options are "invest or roll your own"
mircea_popescu: but without, his options are "roll your own". which is in fact often inefficient.
mircea_popescu: so yes, it IS a gift to the community. just, not in the sense you'd think. it's the sort of gift you're not at a loss for giving, like sharing music.
benkay: one'd only roll their own if the existing solution were such crap that it could easily be beat in the market.
mircea_popescu: you know ? if you want to make whatsapp and there's no phone carrier, now what ?
decimation: it seems to me that there's a pent-up demand for income for those who are holders of bitcoin
mircea_popescu: decimation experience shows that approach is not only theoretically naive, but also actually leads to failure.
mircea_popescu: this okcupid stuff is a goldmine. "Another inquiry that had unexpected results: we asked 252,900 straight people have you ever had a sexual encounter with someone of the same sex?". men : 7% did and enjoyed it ; 6% did and didn't enjoy it ; 5% didn't but would like to try. women : 26% did and enjoy it ; 7% didn't enjoy it ; 18% would like to try it.
mircea_popescu: no mention of age, but I am ready to take a bet that your average highschool today is half-bi, half bi-curious gals.
decimation: I guess I was thinking of reasons why "the public" would bother to invest in a publically available stock.
assbot: Gay Sex vs. Straight Sex « OkTrends
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron this is false, i personally had drinks with a bunch of openly gay people there.
mircea_popescu: o lol you went by map. i think they just didn't fill it in
danielpbarron: the show or the word? either way it's about lesbians
assbot: Showtime : The L Word : Home
mircea_popescu: We selected 526,000 OkCupid users at random and divided them into groups by their (self-stated) race. We then took all these people's profile essays (280 million words in total!) << ok this makes me fucking curious.
decimation: ultimately the usg depends on "likes" in the polling booth, right?
decimation: well, I'm thinking of "likes" of its foreign policy
decimation: I wonder why usg & hmg bother to pay "spies" to ... secretly watch ebay auctions
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 660 @ 0.00275057 = 1.8154 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 15 @ 0.03507553 = 0.5261 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 238 @ 0.00281994 = 0.6711 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 95 @ 0.18023998 = 17.1228 BTC [-] {13}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.1774593 = 0.7098 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 900 @ 0.00270404 = 2.4336 BTC [-] {13}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 17 @ 0.17085641 = 2.9046 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.16583334 = 0.995 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 500 @ 0.00170604 = 0.853 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 40 @ 0.01630197 = 0.6521 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 575 @ 0.003 = 1.725 BTC [-] {10}
mircea_popescu: fluffypony so not that terribly interesting, the sort of "i've done google research from the us" article.
fluffypony: I can't even remember which article it was
assbot: Bitcoin industry thrives in Argentina. "A new safe haven". - Singularityisnear
mircea_popescu: dumb shit like "counting sites" and doing site per million inhabitants comparisons
assbot: Surf Advertisements | BTC Clicks | Earn Bitcoins - Bitcoin Advertising - Bitcoin PTC
mircea_popescu: so a) they advertise in google, paying top dollar (1st result)
mircea_popescu: c) their publishers include luminaries such as "fair ponzi"
mircea_popescu: d) they... actually... run A DIFFERENT AD NETWORK in their dash.
bitcoinpete: "@jgarzik Jeff, is there a dumbed-down explanation somewhere of how to set up a node?"
bitcoinpete: just linked him pankkake's article on running a remote one
pankkake: I'm not sure debian runs it by default
bitcoinpete: hurry! before the veecees break something!
bitcoinpete: lol bitstein told alan silbert to download the core client and… run it.
bitcoinpete: alan's all: "Thanks Michael. Now I feel really dumb to have not found that easier. Thx!"
bitcoinpete: so mr fluffypony when can we look forward to reading your tales of baltic adventures?
pankkake: is that the guy who bought all the coins?
pankkake: quick, send him some forum IPOs
fluffypony: bitcoinpete: this week, hopefully, been insanely busy
bitcoinpete: pankkake: the silberts tried to buy the sr coins and… failed
bitcoinpete: we were just mentioning you vis-a-vis silbert's node
fluffypony: bitcoinpete: had lots of catch-up work to do, missed a group exco meeting whilst I was away
fluffypony: and then we're tendering for a sales office on an estate on the Garden Route that has tons of holiday homes for rent
fluffypony: so there's a ton of work on that to finalise before the 25th
bitcoinpete: "With apologies to both F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway, it seems the rich are not only different than you and me; they also have even more money than we previously thought." << que bueno!
bitstein: started the homestretch of school yesterday
assbot: The Rich Are Even Richer - Bloomberg View
bitcoinpete: "BRICS -- are due to approve the creation of a new currency reserve fund and development bank at their summit in Brazil, which starts today."
nubbins`: got this email from our t-shirt supplier today
assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer
nubbins`: HEY GUYS HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE ON A GIRL
nubbins`: SO YOU CAN SHOW YOUR CUSTOMERS
nubbins`: seriously, what am i supposed to do with that image
bitcoinpete: nubbins`: add them to the20year's posters?
nubbins`: same style shirt, different company:
mircea_popescu: what exactly is the point of tshirts aside from easy access to tits ?
nubbins`: nah, ribbed plus seams are bigger
nubbins`: a nice soft t-shirt is like being draped in jersey-knit bedsheets
bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu: but womenz *hate* wifebeaters
nubbins`: well, the problem is that men who wear them are generally slobs
nubbins`: and nobody wants to see a slob's gross yellow armpits
nubbins`: take a well-kempt person in one, and sure. looks fine. but then, most things do
nubbins`: ah, google has added btc to their currency converter
nubbins`: wait, right, doesn't work like that
nubbins`: anyway. wonder where they're getting their prices from
nubbins`: you gotta actually type it into google.com ;(
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 300 @ 0.00272161 = 0.8165 BTC [-] {10}
assbot: Rioforte prepares to file for creditor protection| Reuters
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 1000 @ 0.0026513 = 2.6513 BTC [-] {9}
assbot: EHX Reggie Watts explores the new 45000 multi-track looping recorder - YouTube
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 40 @ 0.01659994 = 0.664 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.79080888 BTC to 12`347 shares, 14504 satoshi per share
ThickAsThieves: <@mircea_popescu> so do we have any adwords specialists in our midst ? /// I've notable experience, if not somewhat dated
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] [PAID] 2.99981269 BTC to 152`507 shares, 1967 satoshi per share
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 19.36579792 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 1684 satoshi per share
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 46 @ 0.01679889 = 0.7727 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: People who claim to worry about climate change use more electricity - Telegraph
assbot: Vagina selfie for 3D printers lands Japanese artist in trouble | World news | theguardian.com
danielpbarron: obviously they use more electricity! they can't use coal or gas!
pankkake: this matches the people I know - and not only electricity
mircea_popescu: "Last month it took more than 20 firefighters to free a US student who had become trapped inside a giant sculpture of a vagina in Germany."
mircea_popescu: now we know how many muricans it takes to fill a cunt.
BigBitz: mircea_popescu I thought you'd have a beard/shorter hair.
assbot: PAX East 2011 Triple Threat: The Origin of Dudebro - YouTube
gribble: Next difficulty estimate | 17567924696.2 based on data since last change | 17552028821.8 based on data for last three days
gribble: Next difficulty estimate | 17567924696.2 based on data since last change | 17552028821.8 based on data for last three days
gribble: Current Blocks: 310863 | Current Difficulty: 1.733631697850783E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 312479 | Next Difficulty In: 1616 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 3 hours, 28 minutes, and 33 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 17567924696.2 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.33597
Xplosionist: mircea_popescu: Where did you get your numbers? I just did "6 per hour", which is of course only the theory, not the reality.
Xplosionist: mircea_popescu: Okay. I just "didn't get it". ;-)
Rassah: Heard you guys were talking about us in here :)
mircea_popescu: so i am listening to this limp bizkit thing. is it like some sort of wannabe offspring, 20 years later ?
Rassah: specifically kickstarter projects, Entropy, etc.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user Rassah has been recorded.
mircea_popescu: Rassah you can self voice, pm assbot !up if id'd with gribble
bitcoinpete: Rassah: neat rating comment from theymos "Holds BTC for the forum."
Rassah: yes. I'm one of the 7 or so treasurers...
assbot: Bitcoin Graphics - Imgur
Rassah: Woah. I haven't authenticated in over a year. Shows how often I visit IRC :p
ThickAsThieves: "Realcoin, therefore, represents an opportunity to speculate with fiat currency for the first time. If you have reason to believe its price will move for or against a digital currency on the market, now you can take advantage of that. "
ThickAsThieves: guys it will be so awesome to be able to speculate on digital currency!
Rassah: Although I support Realcoin, that statement is a bit... reduntant? Useless? Price moves for or against relative to something else, so instead of using Realcoin, you can just as easily use that something else...
mircea_popescu: Rassah the statement is typical of a desperate play for relevancy coming out of the sort of idiots that imagine claims matter.
Rassah: A dollar that trades directly on the bitcoin blockchain, allowing for atomic exchanges between bicoin and dollar-value asset
Rassah: I have doubts that banks and US reglators will allow it to happen though... but Brock does have some influence
ThickAsThieves: you mean exchange like already happen on Bitstamp etc?
Rassah: No, I mean exchage that happens on #bitcoin-otc, but without need for escrow
mircea_popescu: Rassah what do you mean "without the need for escrow" lol.
Rassah: #bitcoin-otc: you send a promise of dollars, the seller escrows bitcoins. Dollars take time to get to the seller. Once they do, escrow releases coins to the buyer.
Rassah: Realcoin: you agree to a trade with a bicoin sellet. You create a ransaction that trades one of the other. The trade is signed and happens at the same time
mircea_popescu: it's nonsense on a fucking stick, bitcoin and fiat still have different hardness.
Rassah: sorry about missing keys and typos.
mircea_popescu: this is why people don't btc to paypal directly, and haven't, since 2011.
Rassah: How can you clawback digital currency?
mircea_popescu: the fact that B. Fucktard P. wasn't here in 2011, because he was too busy blowing 13year olds in back alleys
mircea_popescu: Rassah fiat does not become "digital currency" just because you'd like it to.
ThickAsThieves: the logs are like chapters of the book they get punished to read in Anathem
Rassah: I'm assuming that cryptocurrency that exists on Mastercin is transfered with private key signatures, and is permanent and complete upon transfer, same as every other cryptocurrency. No chargebacks
Rassah: According to Brock, initially trough his own bank/exchange, and hopefully eventually through whatever banks support his system. So maybe yours. Since banks make money by charging fees to transfer money around, it may be difficult to convince them to add a system that lets them transfer their own dollars for little to no fee though
ThickAsThieves: the only difference between realcoin and bitstampdollar is you dont have to use bitstamp to trade it, but you still need realcoin to render those dollars eventually
mircea_popescu: Rassah so i sue his "bank/exchange", have its accounts locked.
Rassah: There's is another difference. Bitstant desn't have the resources, or even interest, in getting their Bitstamp dollars used by other banks
Rassah: So, has it been long settled that we don't need a distributed exchange? I missed that memo...
nubbins`: i like it when i tell people their artwork isn't big enough, and they just scale it up in photoshop
Rassah: ThickAsThieves: That's kind of my point too
danielpbarron: realcoin is not relevant in a post-fiat world; why even waste time on such a notion that only solves the "problem" of mass adoption
Rassah: From the way he described it, I think he only wants it to be a temporary stepping stone to make USD to BTC transition easer, and doesn't expect it to last very long
danielpbarron: if I think BTC is about to go down, I have local associates who would probably buy it off me today
assbot: Perfect Resize 8 - onOne Software
Rassah: Mircea, care to fill me in on other thins I've missed? The "we don't need distributed xchanges ay more" is surprising considering MtGox died just 6 months ago, and BTC-e is questionable
danielpbarron: Rassah, right; my point exactly.. you can't force Bitcoin addoption; the common man will use Bitcoin when he is FORCED TO by the new economic reality
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla can bitbet search also have order by weight added ?
ThickAsThieves: rassah, you can't remove trust from the sytem, you can only move it to where you prefer
mircea_popescu: Rassah well, i linked you to the log. thing is, this right here is the hot core of btc. you will have to simply read the logs.
Rassah: ThickAsThieves: Trust in large regulated and audited body, supported by and in partnership with numerous banks > trust in some anonymous stranger on the internet
mircea_popescu: trust in government < any alternative < people < otc people.
assbot: Bitcoin Is Great, But It Won’t Fix Our Monkey Brains | The mlaut
Rassah: I would trust an established banking institution more than an OTC trader with 2 or 3 ratings. I would trust an established OTC trader more than a bank
Rassah: it's not black and wite
mircea_popescu: this simply shows you're not well connected, and so mcdonalds level services (ie, bare minimum) are the best you see yourself aspiring to.
mircea_popescu: had you spend the past year or w/e cultivating irc, instead of wasting time on forums/skype/etc, you'd be in the position of lolling at the notion of a fiat bank.
Rassah: I'm pretty well connected. Just not on IRC :)
Rassah: Most of the people I'm connected with don't have time for it.
mircea_popescu: this is just another way of saying they don't matter, you're aware.
Rassah: princessnell: love your nick btw
assbot: Fact of the matter is, the infrastructure was not ready pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
Rassah: Oh. You're all millionaires here?...
mircea_popescu: Rassah so whats the uvp there, convenience or something ?
ThickAsThieves: Seamlessly, without numerous middlemen cutting off a big chunk
ThickAsThieves: of our profits and savings. It's our money, let's keep it simple."
chetty: <Rassah> Oh. You're all millionaires here?... whats a millionaire? why is stuff being measured in dollars?
ThickAsThieves: i recall them having a credit card gizmo with buttons on it
Rassah: Bitcoincard started as a mesh network based idea for a text messaging device. Then the gy who was developing it found out that it's perfect for a bitcoin wallet, ad switched directions, forming Mycelium
Rassah: What's the UVP of what? Mycelium wallet?
mircea_popescu: Rassah so it's a half-implementation of bitcoin-qt, doing only the wallet part ?
Rassah: Bitcoincard is credit card sized device, cheap, flexible, and uses 300meter range radio for communication
Rassah: No, we just got the prototypes in the office a few weeks ago
Rassah: First version of Bitcincard will just be a hardware wallet. Later version, once we get newer battery technology implemented (I think carbon?) it will do full mesh networking, meaning you'll be able to use Bitcoin without need for inernet, and if charged with solar, infrastructue of any kind
Rassah: mesh over it's own radio
Rassah: No. Possibly RFID to send signed transactions out of the device
Rassah: Keep in mind, this thing, before it's laminated, is as thin as a piece of paper. Battery included. (and all flexible, including the display). Not much room or power for bluetoth
Rassah: I beieve the idea is to get merchants to use a "terminal" or sorts to use our cards with, which will provide some of the mesh. Once the cards are done, we'll probably also sell solar powered radio repeaters, with no screens or walet, which should make those dirt cheap too. Then you just glue them to tops of things
Rassah: For now the main product is the Android Wallet though. And that Entropy thing we're finishing up
ThickAsThieves: i just mean how lots of bitcoin biz are getting early investors and making coindesk about it
Rassah: No, the owner who came up with the Bitcoincard idea, and started Mycelium for bitcoin stuff, is some super-rich Russian dude
assbot: This website is exclusively for people over 18 years of age. | NEFT Vodka
Rassah: No, I'm prettu syre not
Rassah: We are raising money for Entropy through Indiegogo because this was an idea that our devs came up with, and wanted to get it done regardless of our owner's financial input.
Rassah: He thinks if it won't make him a million ad get him a fancy sports car, it's not worth bothering with
Rassah: but we think the idea is neat, chea, and worthwhile
mircea_popescu: <Rassah> yes, it will << to understand each other, we're talking millions of units in users hands before the 1st unit shipped becomes usable.
mircea_popescu: this means millions of units shipped the same day, launch day.
mircea_popescu: this is the sort of thing a megacorp a la sony can still botch.
Rassah: <Rassah> yes, it will is reply to <mircea_popescu> well, mesh bitcoin wallet could be useful.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves rassah is chiefly famous for having been an early adopter, then having bought bitcoin out of some sort of a retirement fund w/o the so's permission, right before the climb to 8 or something like that. then sold out and well, one of the first people to pay their mortgage "because bitcoin".
Rassah: Mesh network wallet, whether it is made my us or someone else, will be very useful, especally in places where electricity and internet/cell phone is spotty or unreliable (most of the world?)
Rassah: Mircea, absolutely not. That's not me
ThickAsThieves: Rassah you can be like Tesla and make a big deal, say you are open-sourcing your mesh network tech
Rassah: I was an early adopter, I bought bicoin usin my OWN retirement funds (i.e. money slated to go to IRA and savings every week ended up going into Bitcoin). Then I borrowed some more money from our HELOC to buy a $30k BLF miner, I never preordered, waiting for them to ship, by February 2013 they still didn't ship, so I sold those bitcins, paid off the HELOC, and bought this
http://imgur.com/ZGjrh4e instead. I bought at $8, and sold
Rassah: at $22, thinking "bubble." I was wrong on that, but my car had 250,000+ miles on it and was almost dead, so *shrug*. I have never sold out any of my other coins. As far as anyone knows, I have lost them all in a boating accident, or when I accidentally dropped my USB stick into an airplane toilet and flushed it out over the Atlantic
rithm: so mpex had a raid controller failure
Rassah: Paying my mortgage off with bitcoin would be very stupid, because mortgage rate is 4%, and bitcoin rate is ThroughTheMoon%
rithm: someone linked me to the blog and i read paranoia and/or a failed raid controller
Rassah: And, btw, I was buying when it was $6, then $16, then $22, and then continued bying all the wa from $30 to $2.50, because I understood and believed in the syste
Rassah: Conveniently, the Prius was *exactly* 1,000BTC. Makes it easy to calculate it's present BTC value
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla see ? he got a 1k btc prius. beats your golf cart.
Rassah: btw, the only people here I know are Mircea...
rithm: so clandestine three-letter agencies dumping the firewire, supermagnets, and a failed raid controller
danielpbarron: damn that's an expensive way to look like you care about the environment
Rassah: I don't give a shit about the environment. I bought it to save money
Rassah: which it does wonderfully
mircea_popescu: coulda bought 3 teslas, duct tape them together and just go everywhere and snub people
rithm: oh are we having the conversation about "how x could be different if only i"
danielpbarron: i don't think a 1`000 BTC prius can ever get a ROI
rithm: that's time. anything you think you might have lost in currency conversion, it's really just time
rithm: if the 1000 btc were free?
ThickAsThieves: maybe he uses the money he saves on gas to buy more bitcoins
mircea_popescu: (for the newfags, this "less than a house" thing is a reference to a 2012 discussion re jcpham's investment in pirate. he had less thna a house, more than a car there)
Rassah: What I didn't know before is that Priuses have no transmissions, timing belts, or belts f any kind, and reqire practicaly no mainenance other than 10k mile oil changes and 100k brake pad and transaxle fluid changes. Everything else is electric... After $600+ expenses every 3 to 5 years on my Honda Civic, this is awesome. The 60mpg helps too
rithm: $7500 principal plus whatever zny interest pirate math was owed
rithm: mp speaks the truth
rithm: i'd have to dig up screenshots
rithm: 1600btc and change
Rassah: Plus I like driving a cell phone on wheels :D
rithm: it was a row in some mysql databse
rithm: it could be anything
rithm: it was not mine though
mircea_popescu: Rassah i just did the math, i spent more on camhos this month than your ho nda took every 5-6.
Rassah: Oh, also got a 1,500 Watt inverter for it that can power quite a bit of my house. I can power that thing for about a week on a 10 gallon tank of gas. Conveient for camping, power outages, or GTOFing
rithm: i delightfully detached from that now
rithm: that was years ago
rithm: why are we bringing up old shit
rithm: Trendon stole my time from me
mircea_popescu: Rassah 1.5 watt inverter is kinda low neh ? cause of inductive capacity, you can't really run a fridge ron it
Rassah: Mircea, you are screwing up one of my bitcoin defences
rithm: and he's broke and he can't pay it back
kakobrekla: i got 3kw for 500bux a couple of months ago
Rassah: Trolls claim bitcoin is used for childporn, I point out that that's not true because no one pays for porn any more. Yet you do
rithm: well childporn is secret and hides
assbot: I wasn’t going to actually post this, but… pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
rithm: xvideos and pornhub have a terrible selection based on the search i just did for childporn
Rassah: Being on a tor site doesn't eally mea hiding, does it?
danielpbarron: there is some creep in -otc that pays for a subscription to beastiality porn or something
assbot: Germany's plan to take on NSA: Block eavesdroppers with classical music, and use typewriters - Telegraph
Rassah: hmm... I wonder what it would take for LocalTrader to compete with bitcoin-otc?...
pankkake: danielpbarron: well custom or niche porn is definitely something people will always pay for
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, idk; who is that? I'm talking about Wolf`
pankkake: but still, it's not like pro porn production is slowing down, is it?
mircea_popescu: the people backing otc to move there. which won't happen really, because people don't move unless the platform fucks up majorily.
rithm: yeah that dude is fubar
Rassah: chetty: It's Germany. They would have a much better result if they blocked it with deathmetal
mircea_popescu: pankkake it's not, mostly because the girls like to do it, the photogs like to do it, everyone likes to do it.
mircea_popescu: <Rassah> chetty: It's Germany. They would have a much better result if they blocked it with deathmetal << WORD.
rithm: the nicer your camera is, the quicker the clothes come off, but ymmv
pankkake: and of course they like to do it
assbot: My 2,000 BTC is all gone :( | Bitcointa.lk
pankkake: there was (still is?) a porn kickstarter, but most of the things there were boring. the only one I voted for didn't go to funding stage
ThickAsThieves: mp doesnt think cats can love now, when was the last time you were hugged?
mircea_popescu: this internet psychology thing may have some limitations.
mircea_popescu: but anyway. ever seen a cat sitting on its master's grave ?
mircea_popescu: it can't be a loaded question. it gets immunity, because it's the strict followup to your protest.
ThickAsThieves: and i'm also pretty sure cats will mourn for their own
Rassah: <mircea_popescu> Ah, forgot about that one. Sorry, I was trolling the bitcoin trolls, and explaining things to any alphabet soup agencies that may be listening.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves does your position reduce to "cats love you too but you'll never know ?" cause i could argue the same of dildos.
Rassah: Oh, no wait. The 2,000 btc that was all gone was the BTC that went to pay for my Prius and pay off the HELOC. Sorry, got confused
Rassah: but I purposefully worded it in the OP as if I had lost it all
Rassah: Still reading "bitcoin-is-great-but-it-wont-fix-our-monkey-brains". Long ass article with lots of sie-links...
ThickAsThieves: no, more that cats express love in more limited way than humans do
princessnell: mircea_popescu re: blog. US rebellion day was especially bleak this year. so many patriots in love with a system that despises and exploits them. defending the ghouls that have consumed and spit out their culture.
pankkake: sluts love the/your dick, at least
ThickAsThieves: i think calling a cat a goldigger might be a tad off the mark
pankkake: mind you, I really like cats, and I wish I could have one
nubbins`: ThickAsThieves, crazy software. probably not as slow these days with the abundance of cheap ram
nubbins`: danielpbarron, it only takes 1btc to be elite these days? what the fuck does that make the rest of us?
nubbins`: also, i may have a lead on a poster job for a music festival ghostface killah is playing at
Rassah: So what kind of important, well connected, people who matter hang out on here?
nubbins`: trying not to get too excited ;0
danielpbarron: there can only ever be 21 million of such individuals; that's pretty elite vs 7 billion total population
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron nubbins` is canadian, he has no representation of people density.
Rassah: whom, if I had met, I'd be laughing at the notion of a fiat bank? (mind you, I hang out wth the likes of Kody Wilson and Amir Taki, too)
Rassah: I'm just wondering what the difference is between this IRC, and the Reddit/Skype/etc that's supposedly worse
mircea_popescu: Rassah well, here's a point : reddit/skype/etc still wonder why atc is a thing.
mircea_popescu: while everyone's tried to make altcoins and failed ever since forever.
Rassah: I'm wondering what thing atc is
pankkake: why would you consider Altcoin a success?
mircea_popescu: pankkake because its price graph looks exactly opposite of doge&the rest of the scamfarm ?
assbot: A Touch of Class (band) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
assbot: [SHA256] Altcoin | Page 22 | Bitcointa.lk
pankkake: atc's market cap is pretty small, there's no real over-valuation I suppose
pankkake: no, it's a good thing, but I wondered if you thought so too
kakobrekla: being dead is better than pretending of being alive :)
pankkake: I don't think any altcoin should have a market cap >$10,000 or so
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla btw, i saw coffee and ciggarettes coupla days back. pretty good actually.
mircea_popescu: pankkake twas clear tho, i had said so before, and dropped buncha other hints around it.
Rassah: I'm not sure if Altcoin is a joke or serious, reading is description...
assbot: [ANN] Bernankoin the Coin Not Evil according to Paul Krugman DL WINQT v1.3 NOW | Bitcointa.lk
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves lulz of all time : chick put a magic marker winking eye next to her nipple and moustaches on both tits. not said a word.
Rassah: So I think "reddit/skype/etc still wonder why atc is a thing" should have been " reddit/skype/etc don't even know atc is a thing."
nubbins`: mircea_popescu did you see the Iggy Pop / Tom Waits bit in c&c?
mircea_popescu: Rassah there's a lot teh soft cloud of derps circling btc don't know about.
nubbins`: "...actually, just call me iggy" "so Jim..."
Rassah: So, I'm still confused I guess
nubbins`: waits is actually a pretty good actor. they were both hamming it up in that scene
nubbins`: he played the devil in that Dr Parnassus movie
Rassah: By the way, anyone going to be in Chicago this weekend?
nubbins`: i really matter because i'm moderately well-connected in the wot
Rassah: <ThickAsThieves> No I DOn't
nubbins`: now, tbh, this only matters for some definitions of "matter"
Rassah: I want to know why Mircea claimed that people here are important, and people outside of here are not
mircea_popescu: a, that's easy. because mircea is a rich bastard, and that means he can claim anything he fucking feels like, then make it so.
Rassah: Specifically, what types of connections that you can make here, and why are they better than connection on Reddit/Skype/etc
Rassah: I was looking for any key
Rassah: I have made a few, yes
princessnell: Rassah you'll get it when you keep coming back
mircea_popescu: btw, anyone got that saffron chick's youtube at the ready ?
nubbins`: wait, so taleb didn't take the bait from that really super cringey video you paid for?
Rassah: But will I ever see any of you in real life? Like, speaking of which, is anyone here going to Chicago?
nubbins`: gotta admit, i had to stop watching it
assbot: The conference, third edition pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
ThickAsThieves: rassah, i go to the amsterdam conferences, otherwise we go to mp's conference
nubbins`: hey, i'll be in amsterdam soon
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves the funny thing is... you promised liveblog. then blog. then it fizzled. then fluffypony went to some derpference, promised liveblog. then blog. then it fizzled.
Rassah: I was at the Amsterdam one on September
mircea_popescu: im starting to think like there's no content to be had or something
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: I did Twitter instead of liveblog because of lack of stuff to talk about live
mircea_popescu: fluffypony well yeah but sadly i killed andreas, so... i got nuttin'.
Rassah: ThickAsThieves: If Amsterdam, do you know Moe Levin?
nubbins`: mp i'm not sure, i guess generally people with a lack of social skills both end up cringey and spending a lot of time at the computer
nubbins`: seriously, the fifth word out of her mouth was "fantastical"
nubbins`: and she was talking about an intelligent person's brain
Rassah: ThickAsThieves: Damn. I'm wondering if the tightly woven net of connections here is in any way linked with the tightly woven net of connections I am involved with outside of here...
pankkake: shorter vids would have been better I think
assbot: Mission: #bitcoin-assets - YouTube
pankkake: as there wasn't much to say, so it ends up being weird
ThickAsThieves: i probly annoyed people you know at one time or another, but im not connected to em
mircea_popescu: but maybe we should actually write scripts for the girls.
Rassah: mircea_popescu: finally finished your article. Nothing I disagree with. Much of that is discussed in private by some of the attendees, who otherwise put on a faux public face
Rassah: you don't tak about assassination market based disincentives in public, no
mircea_popescu: i talk about whatever the fuck i happen to feel like talking, why the hell not.
Rassah: Some people are public company representatives that still rely on sales and not making politicians freak the fuck out :)
mircea_popescu: yes. and their companies added together are pretty much almost equal mpex.
pankkake: I think being right when they are wrong is what's annoys them
Rassah: Which is fun to do if you aleady don' give a fuck about things, but is something o keep in check if public work is still to be done
pankkake: reddit made it ok to hide things that hurt your feelings
mircea_popescu: pankkake the theory i was happy with held that they worship the holders of trappings of power. ie, only the powerless.
Rassah: By he way, wat does mpex do/make? I just realized I never really looked into that... I guess I should
mircea_popescu: Rassah makes a few hundred to a few ks a month, valued a few 100ks to a mil.
fluffypony: well at the moment mpex is the king of being offline :-P
pankkake: when it's online, it trades itself
fluffypony: and the owner keeps getting extradited from country to country
fluffypony: when he's not threatening to kill religious leaders
Rassah: Oh, yeah, an exchange. Sorry, forgot
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i wonder when the first president rape occurs. now that women can be presidents.
Rassah: The longest running exchange that has not collapsed like every single other asset exchange has
Rassah: It's been a while since I have been in the anals of bitcointalk, so I forgot. Please fogive me Mircea
ThickAsThieves: sounds like he got rich buying bitcoins and now makes bitcoin products for reddit
Rassah: I forgot what MPEx was
Rassah: mircea_popescu: btw, ironically, I thinkyou and Brock Pierce of Realcoin would get along well together...
fluffypony: Rassah: mircea_popescu isn't into little boys
Rassah: neither is Brock, so that's not what I meant
pankkake: isn't realcoin the stupidest thing ever?
benkay: <nubbins`> wait, so taleb didn't take the bait from that really super cringey video you paid for? // 30 second doses were all i could handle
Rassah: Brock is not as insultingly direct as you, but the best way to describe him is chaos. He has a shitton of money, and his goal in life is to create as much chaos and clusterfuck as possible using that money. Including investing in things that compete directly against his own companies and prior investments.
Rassah: That's partially why Realcoin, too. Get the pot stirring, maybe someone will get upset and make something better, maybe not, likely it won't go anywhere (he doesn't think it will last may years), but as long as he had fun, he does't give a shit
pankkake: if you want to transfer USDs tied to a counterparty, at least use Ripple where you can have more than one central counterparty
Rassah: He's basically another stpid-rich guy who likes to fuck with things
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves you and your hugs. next time i see you ima make everyone hug you.
benkay: and if scripted, godawful scripting.
Rassah: pankkake: I'd rather use OpenTransaction instead of Ripple
mircea_popescu: benkay but i had believed in the power of the crowd source!
pankkake: oh, I suppose you could use it that way too
pankkake: in any case, you don't need a "coin"
Rassah: mircea_popescu: And Brock also privately has a ton of high level connections, probably to almost every bitcoin mining company, bitcoin business, and ons of cuntry politicians, from Russia to China to Sout America...
benkay: i long for my home cuntry
mircea_popescu: Rassah and if instead he were just a washed up child actor with a charged past, looking to come to terms with his depression, wouldn't he be claiming basically the exact same things ?
Rassah: pankkake: I agree with you that you don't need a coin for anything backed. Backing is by definition centralized, so the only thing you can decentralize is the servers handling it. Which, I guess using a distributed ledger instead of a centralized one running on your own server saves you a bit of money, but...
mircea_popescu: now seriously dear assets, we need a script for the next girl doing a nude attack vid.
Rassah: mircea_popescu: I don't think washed out child actors have millions privately invested in tons of companies, and tak about this shit over 20 rounds of beer that they pay with an AmEx Centurion card
mthreat: 1. bitcoin for script writer
Rassah: Anyone ever wonder how the hell Brock, whom no one knew much about, got elected to the BF board, when the public either does't know him or hates his guts? To me that says connections of some sort...
Rassah: Anywa, back to reading trilema links...
mircea_popescu: princessnell so then why ask me what we're going for ?
mircea_popescu: Rassah the bf board is easy. i could have a dead hamster elected, if i wanted to waste btc supporting cancer.
mircea_popescu: i like how this is going, but! what i want is basically the words for a camho to coldhit an older, accomplished male.
Rassah: Hah! So you got connections to people on the bf board! Finally some real world ties :D
assbot: The stuff all good conspiracy theories start with pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
princessnell: coquettishness then. how long? who are the marks?
mircea_popescu: princessnell how... long ? well so far i took it down from 5 to 3 minutes. if you can deliver in less im sure the girls will love it.
Rassah: I recognize Mircea... I guess that's all that matters?
benkay: mircea_popescu: it's going to have to be an actual nude video this time too
mircea_popescu: the hard part is that well... too much going on for the girl to manage. you'll see.
Rassah: mircea_popescu: yeah. Seems there are two completely different power groups in Bitcoin
Rassah: Which is awesome, because I have TWO social ladders to climb now :D
mircea_popescu: Rassah notrly. the people you've not identified include wences, voorhees, momchil, bunches of others.
Rassah: I tought it was him, but didn't want to risk insulting you, because I didn't know what your opinion of him is
mthreat: mircea_popescu: have you tried running a google adword on taleb's own name? people often google themselves. I remember reading a blog post from a guy who used that approach to reach someone.
mircea_popescu: perhaps because you also don't know who laid down the ruleset for the sec, and really for the whole us
mircea_popescu: because you think there's somehow two power groups, because i guess... a lot of talking ? or something.
mthreat: mircea_popescu: (assuming you're trying to get taleb here)
mircea_popescu: mthreat yeah but that someone was a vapid marketeering bitch.
mthreat: this was a guy, but i'm sure it's happened more than once
mircea_popescu: imo it'd be a shit move, seeing how plenty of people google taleb to, you know, find taleb.
mircea_popescu: princessnell if it helps, i think the next victim is nick szabo
mircea_popescu: which reminds me, dear chan, we also need a victim list!
princessnell: ooo <3nick szabo<3 will do my best. bitstein has been chatting him up, maybe he can help with that one.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin-assets. where you do what you love. also puns.
Rassah: mircea_popescu: I noticed you rely a lot on PHP... I've been treating my PHP keys like disposable tissues, and relyig on bitcoin message signing instead...
Rassah: Is that in any way something you accomodate?
mircea_popescu: Rassah i have no idea what you just asked. what php keys, and where would i accomodate them ?
Rassah: For instance, at the conference
mircea_popescu: no, i'm not going to support a braindamaged half baked re-implementation of pgp in bitcoind.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside all the 500 other problems with the idea, why would you want to centralise things ?
Rassah: It's supported by bitcoind, blockchain.info, Armory, Mycelium, and probably many others. I figured bitcoin message signing is a step in the right direction, because not many are working on making PGP keys secure as hell, but tons of people are woking on making Bitcoin keys secure as hell, and easy to use from wallets. Otherwise I don't know what the difference in implementation is between PGP and BTC signing
pankkake: pgp offers more than signing, and has an entirely different paradigm. identity has multiple signing and encryption keys; you trust the identity
pankkake: using bitcoin forces you to a lower level that is quite inconvenient
mircea_popescu: Rassah you figured wrong. tieing your ability to sign to bitcoin is a step in the wrong direction.
assbot: Police Investigating Star Tech CEO Over Multiple Rape Allegations
pankkake: Scott Kveton is the CEO of Urban Airship, a mobile services platform provider in Portland, Oregon <= CEO, "urban", "mobile services", "portland"
benkay: no contracts, no negotiation. just...
pankkake: that wsan't rape, that was ironic sex!
benkay: no safewords even apparently. lots of intoxication.
ThickAsThieves: <+Rassah> Anyone ever wonder how the hell Brock, whom no one knew much about, got elected to the BF board, when the public either does't know him or hates his guts? To me that says connections of some sort... /// but how to apply this logic to Ploshay?
assbot: People! US Dollars are not worth a fifth of a Bitcent. STOP SELLING! : Bitcoin
Rassah: ThickAsThieves: but how to apply this logic to Ploshay? Ploshay was well liked, and was like the "popular girl" or whatever, elected during a very public election when the BF was still something the general public was interested in, and when BF was still interested in a public image
Rassah: Ploshay won a popularity contest basicaly (I ran against her, so I may be biased)
mircea_popescu: lol wait, the bf is not interested in a public image anymore ?
mircea_popescu: was this 5 minutes before or 5 minutes after their public image got wrecked ?
fluffypony: so Petamine made a BIG fuss about moving to p2pool
mircea_popescu: p2pool sadly has some lingering tech issues. for years now.
Rassah: It was not 5 minutes, it was more like a long slog into the dumps
Rassah: A lot of the whole "How can we fix 51% attacks" suggestions are really horrible...
Rassah: I am especially concerned about the one where mining in a pool is made difficult to impossible by making sharing a secret key that lets the miner steal all coins a requirement. The way I see it is, we either have pools that concentrate mining power, but don't actually own or control that power, or we create incentives for individuals to amass tons of mining power, since being a smal miner or as part of a pool is impossible, and
Rassah: then we have individuals that actually do control that mining power. Badly alligned incentives...
Rassah: Basically, pools with 50% mining power are better than individuals with 50% mining power, and some ideas seem to make us trend to 50% owned by individuals
Rassah: Hey, can you guys tell me who BitcoinPete is?
assbot: Startup CEO Dudebro Wishes 'Degenerates' Would Stop Ruining 'The Civilized Part' of San Francisco - LGF Pages
ThickAsThieves: Rassah, bitcoinpete is a b-a disciple going back roughly 6mos, he blogs and has a neat jewfro
Rassah: Huh. He's actually the reason I'm in here in the first place. I followed his blog here, after he tweeted that Mycelium Entropy < dice, and agreed once I asked him if he would be interested in auditing out device.
gabriel_laddel: they spend a lot on the homeless every year in SF. I imagine that when they hand it out they sort out the papers for these 'people'.
Rassah: Peter Todd will be doing an audit too, ad I was hping Bitcoin Pete was someone with some technical knowledge or something
mircea_popescu: but still. to reside somewhere must mean you own some real estate.
Rassah: software, hardware, anything.
mircea_popescu: whoa look, bitcoinpete's only been rated since march huh. how time flies.
Rassah: Basically, we have people with reservations about the randomness and security of our entropy devices, despite not actually knowing how it works, and we are hoping to get some of tose people to back up their claims
mircea_popescu: i guess asciilifeform is the guy who's done most re entropy.
Rassah: so tech knowledge enough to be able to check how the software works, and maybe hardware knowledge to know what chips are being used in the schematic
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: Is your express purpose for the cam video to get people like Nick Szabo and Taleb to join #-assets?
Rassah: mircea_popescu: I haven't heard a peep from asciilifeform, actually. Most complaints ave been from slush
mircea_popescu: wait. were you looking for people with tech expertise or with complaint expertise ?
assbot: Cardano : Xmas blown, other statements pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
Rassah: mircea_popescu: Typicall they are one and the same. It's rare that people who dn't know whit about a topic shit all over it. Unless they're politicians
mircea_popescu: or on the internet. or 20. or having a bad day. or w/e.
assbot: 401 Authorization Required
Rassah: The only ones on Reddit who brought up issues were the ones I know to have technical backgrounds (sluch, peter todd, a few others who backed up their concerns with actual technical questions). Most everyone else just went gaga over it. I kinda assumed BitcoinPete knew something about cryptography and security, considering his statement, followed by me asking if he'd be interested in doing an audit for us, and him agreeing.
Rassah: Though if he just bloggs, I'm not sure if that will be worth our time or money
gribble: bitcoinpete was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 hours, 16 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <bitcoinpete> Rassah: neat rating comment from theymos "Holds BTC for the forum."
mircea_popescu: guy shows up here about once a day, you can ask him in person and get an idea.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i still don't know what it is or what's to go gaga over.
assbot: Thomaston Man Arrested After Stabbing Watermelon: Cops | NBC Connecticut
Rassah: It's a USB stick that you stick into your priner's USB port, it detects a photo, and you hit print, making your printer print a bicoin paper wallet that's never been exposed to the web. Soon as you pull the stick out, the keys are gone for ever
Rassah: Basically an extremely high level entropy generator that uses that entropy to make secure paper walets
Rassah: asciilifeform: Atmel SAM4L series running the software, with random number being generated only from SRAM, in combinaton with other things we're considering, like a salt you can add in a TXT file
☟︎ Rassah: You can check what the software calls for
Rassah: I think standalone sram
Rassah: asciilifeform: No, that would be a few of the Mycelium devs. They described a lot of it to me, since I'm working with them (I'm the one doing the public interraction thing, and running Indiegogo and such)
Rassah: I asked and can relay the Atmel/sram question. I think they are al asleep right now, since they're in Austria
mircea_popescu: Rassah probably the better avenue would be for the graybeard in charge to show up here
mircea_popescu: people have tried this "i'm the pr, i'll pass q's along" thing before, it never works well, not necessarily through anyone's specific fault,
Rassah: In our tests, it still had plenty of entropy at 0ºC, but it smoothly went down to zero entropy around -20º. Maybe we should put warning stickers on these things saying "Caution - Chaotic System. Do not use in low entropy environments above the Arctic or below the Antarctic circle, unless exposed to external sources of energy" :)
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i personally doubt anyone with hardware understanding touched the design, but then again how would i know.
Rassah: We can store part of the raw entropy into non-volatile memory and
Rassah: compare it on the next run. Since we have about 30 times more entropy
Rassah: than we need, we can afford it. This memory effect is already very
Rassah: unlikely; the probability that 1/20th of the SRAM behaves fine and the
Rassah: other 19/20th are stuck is much lower. Especially if the stored part
Rassah: is taken from a different SRAM area every time.
Rassah: We can also add secondary sources to the mix:
Rassah: - the built-in TRNG; nobody trusts these things anymore as primary
Rassah: sources, and we did not even consider its availability when choosing
Rassah: the processor, but it's there and is probably perfectly fine and
Rassah: - floating ADC inputs, as Peter suggested;
Rassah: - five independent RC oscillators.
Rassah: Sorry for the line spam
Rassah: copy/pasted from reply
Rassah: asciilifeform: this device was designed and assembled by the people workin on the bitcoincard. They all know hardware extremely wel
kakobrekla: Rassah why dont you get people who are actually doing this thing here before you do more damage?
Rassah: Ah, got a eply. Seems we'll be using he Atmel provided SRAM after all. And "We will be doing our own analysis of data from several chips, and provide a raw entropy file for those who want to do their own for their specific device." combined with "option to enter a user-supllied salt"
Rassah: So, we won't be relying on Atmel's RNG, and will be reading their SRAM directly
Rassah: mature in what way? Completed and researched? Or discussed at present?
Rassah: Is Atmel really that untrustworthy? Is there a better option?
mircea_popescu: Rassah as in i get the impression things may change or w/e. anyway.
Rassah: mircea_popescu: No, the hardware design is finished. Changes are only in software. Initial method of creating keys is done, we are just adding software patches to add more and more entropy sources to this thing.
Rassah: I mean the chip and the hardware has a lot of stuff in there. The entropy is altready there, but initially we figured the SRAM chip was overkill. The "software adding entropy" meaning we just add more code to grab entropy from more hardware and user sources
Rassah: Yes. If you plug tis device into your PC while holding down the button, it shows up in "flash mode", where instead of just a USB stick with a JPG on it, you get to see all the system and settings files. One of those files is a user provded sald (like diceware) that will be combined with the rest of the entropy sources to produce the final key
assbot: DownvCuzIHurtUrFeels comments on PSA: BitBet holding funds past bet resolution date.
Rassah: key = H(salt||H(entropy)) with H(entropy) on a second sheet of paper so the user can verify it... or something
Rassah: Initially the idea was: Write a salt onto the stick. Then generate key = H(H(entropy_1) + salt) + H(H(entropy_2) + salt), and print all of [key, salt, H(e1), H(H(e1) + salt), H(e2), H(H(e2) + salt)]. (+ could be arithmetic addition or XOR; either should be fine.) The user can then verify exactly one of the outer hashes on an insecure computer, and can verify the additions by hand (literally, pen and paper, no computer)
Rassah: Oh, one other answer (one of the techs is awake): We know we're getting sram because we are physically reading it.
Rassah: It may reduce entropy, but it inreases he number of attack vectors, doesn't it? Attacker would need both the hardware based RNG and the salt to compromise it
Rassah: Due to bits not always flipping because of temperature and outside environment, we will be testing for these issues already.
Rassah: I understand. I'm glad you are asking these questions
Rassah: THERE'S someone I finally know!
Rassah: The Davi Barket convention standin
Rassah: asciilifeform: He's writing. Give me a sec
BingoBoingo: Rassah: What I didn't know before is that Priuses have no transmissions, timing belts, or belts f any kind, and reqire practicaly no mainenance other than 10k mile oil changes and 100k brake pad and transaxle fluid changes. Everything else is electric... After $600+ expenses every 3 to 5 years on my Honda Civic, this is awesome. The 60mpg helps too << Transaxel is just a sideways transmission
kakobrekla: Pirus story rehashed with the new gizmo
Rassah: BingoBoingo: It's three motors in a constantly moving planetary gear setup. The "transmitting" is done by varying input, generation, and torque of he electric motors
Rassah: Just Prius. Others use plain engine, plain motor, ad connect them with a CVT
Rassah: Basicaly, normally to get more power, a car (or other hybrids) switch to a lower gear ratio and spin the electric and/or gas harder. In a prius, the gas engine spins faster than the smaler inner engine can keep up, whic cases it to spin backwards, generate electricity, and then that electric is pumped into the big electric engine
assbot: Toyota Prius - Power Split Device
Rassah: mircea_popescu: Not realy. The reason I was hired is because they don't have time or patience for that
BingoBoingo: Right, but this arrangement of gears and fluids to drive power to wheels is still a transmission. Even if oddly arranged. Nearly any front wheel drive, front engine car uses the term transaxle for this.
Rassah: BingoBoingo: I think Prius calls it a transaxle too. But I don't see it as any sort of normal "transmission"
Rassah: After working on cars, this thing is too weird and different (and less problem-prone) to me
mircea_popescu: Rassah well then i guess they don't get to talk about it at all, to no-one's particular detriment.
BingoBoingo: Oh it is abnormal as hell, but because of its role it is still a transmission
Rassah: asciilifeform: from Nikita: Firstly, we'll publish our analysis of data from chips and argue that it should apply to all chips, and whoever wants can get data from his chip and run our tools or make his own. (our device will be fully open source, so anyone can make one if they wish). Secondly, we zero out a word in memory and make sure it's got enough 1s next time. If there was not enough power-off time, sram would retain its
Rassah: state and we'd read 0 and refuse to generate a key. We will check if the amount of 0 > x% and < y% (to check for deep-freeze temperatures) the Closer they are to 50% the better
Rassah: but since the sample amount is very large even a 10% value is technically enough
Rassah: I asked. Can you tell me what whitening is? I'm not that techie :(
mircea_popescu: whitening is the process of turning the banal 11111 string into b0baee9d279d34fa1dfd71aadb908c3f
mircea_popescu: which is supposedly "entropic", up until someone tries to put your source through md5
Rassah: asciilifeform: Nikita says we use standard cryptographic hashes. Just for salt, for private and public keys, and other bitcoin specific things
Rassah: We don't use hashing as a source of entropy, no. Only to combine ours with a salt
Rassah: asciilifeform: We read the ram data directly
assbot: CiteSeerX — Power-up SRAM State as an Identifying Fingerprint and Source of True Random Numbers
assbot: 0000200: 00001011 00101101 11010100 11101010 .-.. 0000204: 11111101 01111100 1 - Pastebin.com
BingoBoingo: Rassah: Anyone ever wonder how the hell Brock, whom no one knew much about, got elected to the BF board, when the public either does't know him or hates his guts? To me that says connections of some sort... << 90's nostalgia
Rassah: BingoBoingo: Name one movie (besides Mighty Ducks, where he had a sall cameo) that we was in? I've never even heard of him before bitcoin
mike_c: it's not a cameo if you're not famous
BingoBoingo: Rassah: Some thing where he went in time with knights or some shit. At first I confused him with Thomas Ian Nicholas. I think his popularity stems from this confusion.
Rassah: His movies are shit from what he told me
Rassah: asciilifeform: We'll publish those
assbot: Auction of AdBit.co - Advertising network
Rassah: Will Atmel know what your seed and other entropy sources are? If not, why does it matter?
Rassah: won't that cost them way more?
Rassah: and won't that make an excelent opportunity for someone to sell a device just like ours, using their own trusted sram chips? Maybe for more money, but more secure?
BingoBoingo: Rassah: ... Otherwise I don't know what the difference in implementation is between PGP and BTC signing << Other big difference is PGP signing has a nice container for inline signatures attached to signed human readable text of arbitrary length
Rassah: BingoBoingo: -----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Rassah: Comment: Signed by Bitcoin Armory v0.91.99
Rassah: -----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNATURE-----
Rassah: HOmDGwDHYEtFRXWurHW7km9QCKWJMRVyqfPbsBOEQmvFVLTRQVOTAtB/OZHkTuxG
Rassah: UfcLmLUyQoCbsHWrWqApocg=
Rassah: -----END BITCOIN SIGNATURE-----
BingoBoingo: Rassah: And different clients produce diffent signoturds and expect different signaturds.
Rassah: asciilifeform: We've dealt with skew stuff too. I don't remember what it was, but it was addressed (I think we have more than enough enropy to work with or something)
Rassah: BingoBoingo: Blockchain.info is weird abou it, but bitcoin-qt, Armory, and Mycelium are all compatible
Rassah: asciilifeform: From Nikita again: Most cells have too much skew to be useful. We suck entropy out of those whose skew is low. That's why there is ~21:1 cell-to-entropy ratio at room temperature on most devices. They had one device from Microchip IIRC, whose entropy was much lower, but the others were very close to the 20–21 ballpark. We analysed data from MRD SoC, which is in the bitcoincard, and got the same 21:1 ratio. Then I
Rassah: put it in the freezer in the kitchen and collected data while it was cooling down. There was still plenty at 0ºC, but it smoothly went down to zero entropy around -20º. The cells with high skew are those which effectively constitute device signature.
Rassah: We can say that the skews are randomly distributed among cells during manufacture, and then remain fixed; temperature shifts all skews.
BingoBoingo: Rassah: And the last tolerable version of Multibit does something else as well. When PGP/GPG has the ascii armored text block already it just isn't worth trying to replace it with bitcoin signing just to save a few bytes.
Rassah: BingoBoingo: You could just say "Bitcoin address doesn't support encryption, or storing identity inside the key"
mircea_popescu: he could also say "i don't want my signature to be dependent on the code written last year by a bunch of dudebros"
BingoBoingo: Rassah: That too, but I just want to point out that even for signing cleartext, it isn't workable.
mircea_popescu: understandable, especially as pgp has been around for three decades.
Rassah: asciilifeform: So, if I use an entropy device to generate paper walets, you can bruteforce it by recording the temperature in my room???
Rassah: I plug it into my printer, and make a paper walet. I put it away, and send money to the paper wallet. Then you......
mircea_popescu: takes the stick, puts it in the freezer, melts it slowly, identifies the flip bits, counts them
Rassah: I am not tech, no. I wasn't aware that these things actually retained any bits when you yank them out
Rassah: asciilifeform: On the contrary, they are reading all of this
mircea_popescu: Rassah it's not that they retain bits. it's that they retain their behaviour.
mircea_popescu: same batch, yea, obv. with a little luck they are exactly identical.
Rassah: So it's a good thing we're not relying on just SRAM fo the entropy then
mircea_popescu: with a little less luck they're identical but physically translated in the plane.
mircea_popescu: Rassah do you know what the cook said when the people in the restaurant didn't like his shit soup ?
Rassah: asciilifeform: Nikita: Well, yeah, you can narrow the range down to about 8000 bits.
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu leave the bits you dont like? :)
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla lmao good one. but no, it was "thanks god i put some piss in there too, so it's not all shit"
Rassah: asciilifeform: Work on this device was started in early September. So we have had a lot of tests on the chips by people who have been working on bitcoin cryptography for years now. So it seems as if they are aware of most of these concerns...
Rassah: kakobrekla: What kind of a question is that?
assbot: "Weird Al" Yankovic - Word Crimes - YouTube
Rassah: Me: You're basically saying that, even if they stole the device and examined it, or stole one that was made right after it with similar chip characteristics, they'd still have 8000 bits of entropy to dea with, making their brutefocing impossible?
Rassah: From another ech working on this: bruteforcing Ends at > 50 bits for most algos. some primitive ones can be done up to 70 bits
Rassah: Nikita: Total size 32 kBytes, we use about 21 kB as entropy source.
mircea_popescu: bruteforcing Ends at > 50 bits for most algos. some primitive ones can be done up to 70 bits << wtf nonsense is this ?
Rassah: Different guy who does the software commenting about the software side of it? I have no idea
Rassah: asciilifeform: You will be informed when our sources are released and you are invited to give his opiniion then <<-- Apparently my official statement
Rassah: asciilifeform: "He's wasting your time, that's obvious now." <<- not official statement
mircea_popescu: you know, i had told you this won't work about an hour ago.
Rassah: no, sources wll be published before product is out
mircea_popescu: at least the fact that it's been worked on since sept makes me feel a lot better.
Rassah: We have sources, we just don't want cheap chinese knockoffs undercutting us before we even ship
Rassah: asciilifeform: Have you seen the chinese bitcoin mining market?
Rassah: And yes, if the software and hardware is completely open source and public, why wouldn't someone want to sell cheaper knockoffs? We hope we can still sell outs at a premium, due to our reputaton and such, but...
assbot: WANKCOIN | Bank While You Wank!
dub: how did assets miss this?
Rassah: generic hardware is easy to reproduce
assbot: Bittrex.com - BTC-WKC Market
dub: Sex! Money! Power!. WANKCOIN!!!
assbot: In Bid to Cut Costs, Hospital Creates New Multi-Organ System Failure Clinic | Medical Satire - GomerBlog
Rassah: asciilifeform: I take it you're one of those who thinks the only way to create a paper wallet is to buy a used $100 laptop, use diceware with at least 20 words, use the laptop to hash that into your private key and address, write it down by hand on paper using a hard glass surface, and then burn the laptop?
Rassah: asciilifeform: I use "hash" interchangeably with "compute with one of the inputs for the formula being your source of entropy, and the output being your private key
dub: mircea_popescu: works here
Rassah: Or do you think that Bitcoin is not secure, because the bitcoin address is hashed from the private key?
dub: tl;dr bid is 0.00009875
Rassah: asciilifeform: beer bottles and writin sourcecode while drunk?
BingoBoingo: Rassah: Address is hashed from public key...
Rassah: BingoBoingo: I know. Priv > pub > address. I as shortening
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 69 @ 0.0119 = 0.8211 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: If fucking is just about sticking your dick in a hole that accomodates it, I'm just going to get some pipe from the hardware store, saw it into dick length pieces, and sell them pocket pussies. What could go wrong???
Rassah: This ting is made for people who are not techy (most of not bitcoiners) who won't be bothered to create a Tails linux distro on a USB, generate addresses on them using Bitaddress or something, printing to a USB connected priner, and wiping the printer. I think this device, where you plug t into your printer and hit print, will make bitcoin a hell of a lot easier to secure for the masses. And it costs a fracton of what the other
Rassah: options are. So, yeah, it's not perfect (with RNG nothing ever is). But it'll help
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: No, I'm just cutting the pipe and selling it. A dick fits, what is this thing where a dick needs to do more than fit in something to fuck it. I'm just taking a shortcut.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo actually, here's an idea : silicone recipients filled with vodka.
Rassah: BingoBoingo: IF it's an uncut dick, that should work fine, but you'll have stiff competition from already existing holes, like couch cussons for instance
Rassah: I seriously hate this keyboard btw... It's a very old microsoft touch-type wireless ergonomic, and it misses the keys around the G and H constantly. But I'm too cheap of a bastard to get a better one. So, please ignore my typos, and don't let them reflect on my grammar skills (I took Latin, damnit!)
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: That's a shortcut for the consumer. It's the opposite of a shortcut to produce. Doing the minimum is the right way to produce. Never mind we won't polish the burrs off the edges either.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo what, you kidding ? just pour the caulk in a shape. cheapest shit ever.
BingoBoingo: Nah, we'll just let people hash their privates...
dub: just sale instructibles for digging dick sized hole in ground
FabianB: Rassah: so it's mainly for the masses who want to store 0.01 btc on a paperwallet
mircea_popescu: FabianB hopefilly more than that, since it'll cost more than 6 bux i imagine
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assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 309 @ 0.00778049 = 2.4042 BTC [-] {34}
benkay: <ThickAsThieves> not sure his profession // housewife
benkay: <Rassah> so tech knowledge enough to be able to check how the software works, and maybe hardware knowledge to know what chips are being used in the schematic // well if its chips and an rng, asciilifeform's likely to tell you that unless you can inspect the chips (which you can't), you can't make claims about the RNG.
benkay: <asciilifeform> Rassah: I think << you are not the designer of this item ? // hee hee hee hee i'll just pop this corn
gribble: Current Blocks: 310907 | Current Difficulty: 1.733631697850783E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 312479 | Next Difficulty In: 1572 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 9 hours, 51 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 17899784284.5 | Estimated Percent Change: 3.25021
BingoBoingo: Maybe there needs to be a backup instance of assbot named buttsett
benkay: <Rassah> who won't be bothered to create a Tails linux distro on a USB, generate addresses on them using Bitaddress or something, printing to a USB connected priner, and wiping the printer // this is what one calls a "strawman" argument. as a person nominally involved in "public relations" you should never commit such derpitude in public.
pankkake: Bitaddress, trusting some random js prng?
benkay: y u no backup, Mats_cd03
Mats_cd03: i can ddrescue the drive if i cant fix the machine
Mats_cd03: i think i can though, just gonna put it through an alcohol bath (i spilled water on it)
mike_c: didn't you lose the one because you were stoned?
benkay: don't crypto and drugs
benkay: (do (or crypto drugs))
Mats_cd03: skype enables tracking by entities other than nsa
BingoBoingo: So over a sample size of 2, drunk is less memory bad than stoned
dub: narcocryptoterrorists up in here
assbot: Sander Van Doorn & Firebeatz - Guitar Track (Sam Feldt Remix) [FREE DOWNLOAD] by Sam Feldt on SoundCloud - Hear the worlds sounds
Mats_cd03: oh man that conversation about the usb stick is hilarious
Mats_cd03: suffering from 'close enough' syndrome
Mats_cd03: perfection is intellectually difficult, you know
Mats_cd03: i found out today someone i used to play starcraft with patented ASLR
BingoBoingo: Mats_cd03: Not even perfection, merely "good enough" is a challenge in any endeavor
assbot: Patent US20090254726 - Method of address space layout randomization for windows operating systems - Google Patents
Mats_cd03: borked english. i found out today someone i used to play starcraft with, patented ASLR
Mats_cd03: i learned today you can sabotage EMET
Mats_cd03: SetThreadContext is non-deterministically broken from XP x64 SP0 to Server 2008 R1 x64 SP2
Mats_cd03: cant protect any x64 browsers...qa didnt even test it
dub: the real question, is it bongwater in Mats_cd03's laptop
gribble: Cosmos was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 31 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <Cosmos> I brought entertainment & then I faded down to a speck of nothing
atcbot: [X-BT] Bid: 210 Ask: 242 Last Price: 210 24h-Vol: 0k High: N/A Low: N/A VWAP: N/A
Mats_cd03: sorry... i meant to say it is deterministically broken. the subterfuge is non-deterministic
BigBitz: interesting link, Mats_cd03.
Mats_cd03: as i understand it, vm-based packers are really hard to use properly
Mats_cd03: most crapware authors simply fuck it up when they try to implement the obfuscation
Mats_cd03: and the use-case for that sort of thing is limited anyway
Mats_cd03: you can do things like look for the VM license. lol.
Mats_cd03: 'in the most amateur sense of 'fucking it up''
assbot: Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal
Mats_cd03: when my carpal tunnel gets better id like to do it full time
Mats_cd03: although im going to avoid dc at all costs
BingoBoingo: Mats_cd03: How is that going? Find anything that offers more relief yet?
Mats_cd03: its been milder recently, ive been typing a lot less (which means no coding unfortunately for benkay)
Mats_cd03: i tried to teach dragon programming in c
Mats_cd03: ended up smashing a keyboard out of a fit of childish rage
BingoBoingo: Maybe you should give up and start keyboarding with your toes
mike_c: keyboards should be able to take a good beating. otherwise they are by (my) definition not fit for professionals.
mike_c: one of its charms for sure
kakobrekla: btw mike there is a mod where you can make the model m office safe in terms of noise and the feedback is only slightly affected
BigBitz: relating to VM obfuscating :)
kakobrekla: the way to do is - insert the very thick dental floss (oral b super floss) inside the springs, between 50 and 100% of the height
kakobrekla: well if you count that, depends on the neighbor count
kakobrekla: these boards arent exactly cheap anymore.
kakobrekla: nevertheless people will resist using these.