tmsr - Log 2018-06-04

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: d00d grudgingly revealed a few hidden boobytraps, that each would take coupla wks at least, otherwise, to defuse.

asciilifeform: and confessed re where the mislabeled vendor src lives.

asciilifeform: ( building it, is a whole new mountain of shit to climb )

asciilifeform: i specifically lulled over ( and in prev thread in that heathen pit, similarly ) the 'security model'

deedbot: yesplease voiced for 30 minutes.

mircea_popescu: what am i to do, everyone's on phonese apparently.

mircea_popescu: and i have this friend who's been working on making a portable computer

asciilifeform: perhaps soon we can issue real comps to folx like this.

asciilifeform: it's a pretty spiffy, ironwise, comp. costs less than a third of what ipnoje costs, even.

asciilifeform: incidentally ~same pill will work to cure other arm64 chrome iron. afaik the c101pa is the only one with ips panel tho, currently.

mircea_popescu: <lobbesbot> --- end of auction list, 372.264mn total bids ---

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/no-country-for-old-men/ << Trilema - No country for old men

ave1: asciilifeform, could you post the contents of ' build/build-x86_64-linux-musl/binutils-2.25.1/build1/config.log'?

lobbesbot: ave1: Sent 2 days, 4 hours, and 59 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-01#1820193 << yes it worx!

lobbesbot: ave1: Sent 5 hours and 57 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/J7Aey/?raw=true << amd64 gnat dun build on arm64.

ave1: asciilifeform, also what is in the build-ada.sh? the last line on aarch64 should read: ../extra/build-tarballs.sh $PREFIX musl ada aarch64 x86_64 ☟︎

lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-06-04 03:11:12: <lobbesbot> --- end of auction list, 372.264mn total bids ---

lobbes: ^^ reads, but there is a ~1 min lag from when line is spit out until it hits lobbesbot's db (logs and bot are on separate boxen, and the logs feed the bot).

lobbes: On my todo list is prop up an instance of the tmsr logbot on my pizarro rockchip and redo the #eulora logs to be fed from that. I built the #eulora log-o-tron back in 2015, and back then I had just typed 'ls' for the first time in my life, so I wager I can make the whole process much saner this time around.

lobbes: but relatedly to the quote, I am pretty happy to see the auction business booming again :D

lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-11#1812127 << btw, this has been working like a charm for the download part of the archive process. I was able to do away with the phantomjs-crapolade completely. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-05-11 05:12 mircea_popescu: lobbes : curl --cookie "__cfduid=dd16c67421dbb9d1705d6bf28b3fa898c1525574538" -A "TMSR fucks cloudflare" http://archive.today/download/AvNme.zip > AvNme.zip

lobbes: Best part is that the same cookie can be used for -any- download link from archive.today, and each cookie is good for 5 months, so I didn't even need to automate the scraping bit.

deedbot: http://pizarroisp.net/2018/06/04/pizarro-statement-may-2018/ << PizzaroISP - Pizarro Statement, May 2018

ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: smoosh footnotes down to the bottom of the page pls

deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/06/04/rocking-fuckgoats-on-the-rock-chip/ << Ossasepia - Rocking Fuckgoats on the Rock-chip

BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> BingoBoingo: smoosh footnotes down to the bottom of the page pls << Will see what I can do about this

deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/06/microsoft-acquires-github-in-all-stock-transaction/ << Qntra - Microsoft Acquires Github In All Stock Transaction

asciilifeform: diana_coman: very spiffy; i have added your tests to the FG www links.

deedbot: alex__c voiced for 30 minutes.

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-03#1820367 << there isn't one, there is a peculiar bug that seems to only manifest in my lispworks dev environment. things actually work on production, though the patch page is 20mb ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-06-03 04:11 mircea_popescu: phf, what's the limit ?

phf: i'm not sure how practical that makes patch page though, it definitely doesn't open on my x60. i could perhaps introduce some split mode, where patch page only lists the hunk filenames, and you need to click on hunk to see the contents

mircea_popescu: phf, part of the reason i keep having things sit on other things is to find out what the fuck we need to do.

mircea_popescu: is the idea here that code should never be that long, basically ?

a111: Logged on 2018-04-06 21:12 asciilifeform: a 500k-loc ( ignoring even for a moment the far greater heft of 'modern' wonders ) c/cpp proggy is, for all intents and purposes, closed-source, even if every line is published, because it is quite impossible for anyone -- even author -- to get a proper grip on its behaviour space

phf: right, that was the original idea, as evangelized by ascii. btcbase patch viewer is designed with that idea in mind

phf: i can obviously fix btcbase to be more useful (i.e. continue to aid the patch exploration) in cases where a patch is big, but in general a 9mb patch seems to go against the whole fits in head

asciilifeform: phf: trb is, what, 800kB, and already imho 'weighs' ~10+ yrs worth of study to fully grasp

mircea_popescu: see, it rests in between "here's a blob of strange, 100mb long" and "here's a sane genesis"

mircea_popescu: and we do have some such blobs in the process, so far.

asciilifeform disagrees that any proggy's src has any business whatsoever weighing 1MB, much less 9MB

asciilifeform: when approaching this mass, really oughta start cutting into orthogonal subsystems. and if you can't cut, the design is broken.

mircea_popescu: how are they to be digested, if we deliberately make the tools we use unable to grab them ?

mircea_popescu: first step of any digestion is, gotta stuff it in the gullet. enzymes afterwards.

mircea_popescu: the alternative process (as displayed by some spiders etc) is very limited.

asciilifeform: all else being equal, tool that laughs at arbitrary masses of payload is theoretically better ( if folx can be trusted to 'keep it in their pants' and not to use it as excuse for bloat )

asciilifeform: but history of pc , suggests grimly that they cannot

mircea_popescu: this'd be my reasoning. just because you shouldn't doesn't mean you should couldn't.

asciilifeform: nao, if phf can make his vtron handle 'arbitrary' (say, up to avail. ram) masses, and without losing anything, moar power to him. but in practice something is usually sacrificed, in the name of speed/efficiency, is the worrisome bit.

asciilifeform: ( as described by naggum & elsewhere, in the 'bathtub' piece )

phf: mp-wp is 162093 loc, 6062 of which are containered gif/png. so it's not even that base64 blobs are adding to weight. the codebase is massive

mircea_popescu: phf, it also has the advantage that it works, and VERY well. which to my knowledge is not true of any other piece of web software (alf's complaints notwithstanding, phuctor emergent codebase may qualify) ☟︎

mircea_popescu: will you go as far as to say that writing a general purpose scriptable webatron (apache) and a "separate" (notrly) db system (mysql) is the wrong solution, and one should just write his blog software in c directly ?

asciilifeform: ( funnily enuff, asciilifeform has ~own~ 'mp-wp' , made from ~same vintage of wp, that does admittedly only half of what mircea_popescu's does ( i dun have the spam filtration ) )

mircea_popescu: because it is not directly evident to me what portion of the 162k loc (granted -- insane count) is due to the tower of chairs arrangement.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, this is quite what i'm saying, a web publishing platform we will want, and phf is in a prime posityion to appreciate the gargantuan task of "make it from prime principles", i think.

mircea_popescu: considering his blog still doesn't win any beauty contests mine participates in.

mircea_popescu: to be clear, i'm not for a second disputing that such piles of lines of "code" are a scandal and an outrage before god. but i wish to know what we're to do.

asciilifeform: actually i suspect that this is one of those items that will be very short and sweet , when made from first principles under a future http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-26#1789682 system ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-03-26 14:28 asciilifeform: recall the gc discussion . 'scripting lang is one where progy dun live long enuff to need gc'

phf: mircea_popescu: oh i'm not suggesting there's folly here, i'm a) thinking of how to better slice the beast and b) pointing out that it's not even a container issue

mircea_popescu: anyway, there's also the 2nd order effect, whereby by interacting with heretics you find out stuff like "hey, i have a memory leak"

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, in theory this is a theory, but in practice his comments are still weird looking.

asciilifeform: junkyard wars (e.g. trb, mp-wp) where one is stuck welding a tank from 5 zaporozhets and 3 lada carcasses, because that's what there is to work with, inevitably are heavyweight ☟︎

mircea_popescu: the other problem still remains : if it is not republican doctrine to have a scriptable webatron with a separable but not separate dbsystem, then ~what is it~.

phf: just to clarify my blog is mp-wp, i just bastardized the theme to the point of "improvements" being worse than original

mircea_popescu: and if it is, then what's wrong with php, and delineated specifically. or what, we're gonna use lua ?

mircea_popescu: phf, oh really ? i thought you had a lisp competitor.

asciilifeform: iirc we had a thread, where asciilifeform outlined a proper scripting lang.

mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as a proper scripting lang in general, though. that's why it even is ~a~ scripting lang, because it's by the task

asciilifeform: ( tldr : something like 'tinyscheme', but in heapless ada, and with deliberately no gc )

mircea_popescu: and here we're looking at a html pre-processor scripting lang

asciilifeform: asciilifeform in particular is looking to ditch python, bash, etc box of rusty nails.

mircea_popescu: and we don't even have a formally declared tmsr-html spec.

phf: i think someone else here had a lisp implementation, but that one lacked comments entirely ☟︎

mircea_popescu: i'm just saying, it's not ~just~ mp-wp that's an eyesore here. in truth it's our whole relationship to the www that's at issue. ☟︎

asciilifeform: this -- is true. scripting lang, however, has a place in life outside of wwwism -- for throwaway experiments, e.g. http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html , and similar

mircea_popescu: and i don't believe www is dead tech. it may need some changes, but as such, the convenience is there, girls reading logs on gym exercise machine mounted tablets.

asciilifeform: i use it every day, even tho i have never touched original vt.

asciilifeform: ( funnily enuff, the pain of 'modern' html, exactly mirrors the pain of vt 'enhanced' with 'terminal control' gnarl, 35 yrs ago )

mircea_popescu: the same idiots always enhance cunt the same god damned way, a good dose of the clap.

asciilifeform: imho, part of smart engineering is to know not to do this. 'jet engine welded to zaporozhets'.

mircea_popescu: or to quote the unknown russian, "you have disease of capitalist"

mircea_popescu: "you fuck it, it only gets heavy, and you still not hit largest side of barn"

asciilifeform: ( tho, -- iirc it was orlol -- had a pertinent piece, on the unremovable disincentive for market players against selling durable, quality items that never need replacement or 'upgrade' etc )

asciilifeform: 'i sold indestructible, perfect $tool to all $n possible buyers, nao what do i eat'

mircea_popescu: man... this is like proposing fucking a slavegirl well is a bad idea, what'll she need you for if you do.

asciilifeform: some activities have this problem, others not ( restauranteurs do not have to contend with a 'i dun need to eat, i already ate in 2011' )

mircea_popescu: from experience, the more solid code delivered, the more demand for further solid code.

mircea_popescu: what, i should write the same god damned thing every six months, like those idiots doing "cms solutions" for "Web development" "tech firms" ?

asciilifeform: again in some subfields there is a famine of solid code, in others -- not ( the payware c compiler people, microshit aside, mostly have starved, afaik )

mircea_popescu: so they're fucking done. permanently. and there's nothing left for http://trilema.com/2017/damele-dameleee/#selection-97.1-52.45 posterity.

asciilifeform: the 'web dev' nonsense where 'same code written every 6mo' is symptom of a poorly-defined problem to begin with; sorta like wound sutures that reopen

mircea_popescu: it's symptom of "every biosack has will to live" nonsense. what, they're all gonna be entrepreneurs. pshaw.

asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu had an article where 'the carpenter said, i will stand here and hold the wall up, for small fee..'

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/qntra-sqntr-may-2018-statement/ << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) May 2018 Statement

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, we didn't sell/pay anything this month, did we ?

asciilifeform: ( tho i am certainly hoping to begin selling pre-cured c101pa boxen in ~this~ mo )

asciilifeform: a rockchip cluster under snsa banner , for pizarro, also under construction ( currently still in component search phase ) , construction also planned for this mo ☟︎

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/no-such-labs-snsa-may-2018-statement/ << Trilema - No Such lAbs (S.NSA), May 2018 Statement

diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-03#1820437 <- I can very gladly report that it works! I've re-built gnat on an x86_64; took the aarch64-native to the rockchip; unpacked, set, compiled ffa ch1 and ran, all perfectly fine; ave1 you rock! ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-06-03 18:51 diana_coman: will do tomorrow and report back

diana_coman: !!v F0D3BF6C74645C228DA0009E4B47A1E8956EE9308AE21F956F13B504227D9A4F

deedbot: diana_coman updated rating of ave1 from 2 to 3 << made the very useful scripts to compile gnat for various architectures as well as other useful ada & ada+c bits; does a lot and talks a little, always on point though; writes at ave1.org